Threaded bolts (argh!!)

[Antallica]

Hey all,

Now that I've sucessfully broken the Bandit for a while, I need to figure out how the hell I'm going to fix one of the threaded bolts that I managed to break so easily when putting on the oil filter cover.

By the looks the whole threaded bolt might be able to be screwed off the engine itself, I'm wondering if one of the local bike shops might be able to have some replacements (sadly I can't do that until Wed). Anyone else done this before?

What a shit day.

[sAsLEX]

so its the bolt thats broken or the hole it goes in to?? Any fastner shop ie EDL fastners should be able to do the bolt, and the hole could easily be repaired with a helicoil

[Antallica]

Well here's my shoddy attempt at making this more clear.

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/antallic/bugger.jpg

[wkid_one]

Tap and Die set will sort the prob

[Antallica]

I'll still need a whole new bolt rod won't I? It's unrepairable?

[merv]

Yep you'll need a new one. Luckily its and outy you are having problems with not an inny (so ignore Wkid you don't need no tap or die). Get some vise grips, borrow some if you don't own any, lock them onto the stud and then turn it outwards. Keep undoing the vise grips and reattaching and turning until you can get it out. Go down to the shop, any sort of engineering supplies shop if the bike shop doesn't have the part - take both bits with you and say I need a stud this long (sounds like girl talk, but thats what you need). Then bring the new part home, screw it into the bike and you are ready to attach your oil filter cover again. To avoid breaking it again don't apply gorilla grip force when you do up the nut, its just a teeny weeny stud.

[Motu]

It's called a stud,has a thread at each end.I don't think you will find a stud or bolt with that thread at Mitre 10 (where do they get the staff these days?) or anywhere else for that matter.All the nut and bolt suppliers stock ISO threads...that's international standards...so the whole world uses that metric standard - uh,except the Japanese,who in their infinate wisdom have a whole completly different range of threads (does whitworth ring a bell you old farts).Because we all ride and drive Japanese vehicles we think the Europeans are doing it all wrong with their weird theads and hex sizes (11mm,13mm,15mm etc) but in reality it's the Japs who are doing it wrong by not recognising international standards.....end of rant...

Every component we replace or vehicle we wreck has every nut and bolt saved and filled in boxes - because we can't buy them.Bring me a sample if you like.

[MacD]

All the nut and bolt suppliers stock ISO threads...that's international standards...so the whole world uses that metric standard - uh,except the Japanese,who in their infinate wisdom have a whole completly different range of threads (does whitworth ring a bell you old farts).Because we all ride and drive Japanese vehicles we think the Europeans are doing it all wrong with their weird theads and hex sizes (11mm,13mm,15mm etc) but in reality it's the Japs who are doing it wrong by not recognising international standards.....end of rant...


Well that explains a few issues I've encountered over the years with owning both Japanese bikes and European cars (well a Renault 12 - now that was an idiosyncratic engine/diff/gearbox layout - although I think it was the Renault 16 that had the whole thing backwards!?)

So what threads are used on the pre-packaged bolts/studs etc at places like Repco/Supacheap Auto? ISO metric?

[Antallica]

So what you're saying Motu is that the engineering or bike shops won't have the bit?

[loosebruce]

So what you're saying Motu is that the engineering or bike shops won't have the bit?

Try MSL Fastners on Rosebank Rd (big orange/blue building, with a big arse bolt out the front) i had the same issue when trying to find a bolt to use to fit my crash bungs, they generally are used to selling to tradesmen but they should have what you need. A shop like this would be your best bet, trying to get it from a bike shop would be a mission and a half.

When you thread the stud back into the eingine case might pay to slap a little loctite in for good measure.

Cheers

[loosebruce]

Sorry didn't realise you're in whangerai, rosebank rd just a little to far, MSL may have a branch out your way or try any place that deals with fastners.

[loosebruce]

This might help:

http://www.yellowpages.co.nz/quick/search?cat=799&view=loc&page=search&loc=10

[Motu]

A bike shop would be a better bet,they will have Japanese fasteners,and like us will save every bolt to spare.I've had salesmen from big fastener suppliers say they have every thread for there is - ''have you got one of these?'' says I showing him a 10mm 1.25 standard Japanese bolt....''ummm,I'll get back to you on that one''.They never do,cause they don't have them!

[moko]

And BE GENTLE,go at it like a bull at a gate and you`ll just snap it off inside the casting,then you`re in the shit.They`re not the strongest of things as you discovered when the other end broke.Best thing to do is dose it with some kind of easing oil or WD40 or similar,ease it out a bit and loads more gunk.Even if it seems free enough dont take any chances,trust me mate I`ve learned patience with machinery the hard and expensive way.

[curious george]

..so the whole world uses that metric standard - uh,except the Japanese,who in their infinate wisdom have a whole completly different range of threads (does whitworth ring a bell you old farts).Because we all ride and drive Japanese vehicles we think the Europeans are doing it all wrong with their weird theads and hex sizes (11mm,13mm,15mm etc) but in reality it's the Japs who are doing it wrong by not recognising international standards.....end of rant...


This is a P/T yeah?
Japs=whitworth? WTF?
If it wasn't for the americians and their imperical ways :argh:

[NC]

Well here's my shoddy attempt at making this more clear.

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/antallic/bugger.jpg
You said nut


Heehee

[Motu]

It was in reference to the Japanese having a system different than what everyone else is doing.

After WWII when it was found the different thread systems of the Poms and Yanks caused a few headaches two new threads were produced - unified national course (UNC) and unified national fine (UNF),which were actualy the American threads,just altered slightly.The British Wiitworth thread was really a far better thread form,but any way everyone was supposed to use the unified threads,often called SAE.But a lot of Britsh manufacterers carried on with the old threads - in low production runs it was uneconomic to change.Leyland,Rover and the British motorcycle industry were the ones I remember who didn't change.

The Yanks have taken on SI,but won't put it into practice,the Japanese pretend they have,but just merrily carry on in their own way.

[FROSTY]

Ant I agree with Moko and Motu -it looks to me that what youve got is m6 metric fine. What I would do is have a look at how that filter bock mounts to the bike and take it off. Once ya have is sussed then ya can work on it
call me if ya need a hand

[Antallica]

Gargh, I'm almost ready to hiff this at the shop. Got enough shit going on without this bastard to deal with.

The stupidest place to put it imho.
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/antallic/oil.jpg


So anyway, all I have to do is remove the stud from the engine with some grips and suchlike, and take it to a bike shop?

[FROSTY]

Bugger mate -shes a tadd tight. Do the penatrating oil bit--at least 4 times --then try to get it out

[Antallica]

Went to work and found it is indeed a standard M6 thread, and as luck has it we have a 1m length of M6 threaded rod. So all I need to do tomorrow is grab some CRC, vice grips and unscrew that baby out and replace with some rod cut to correct length.

I might shove some spring washers on each rod for extra durability. The snapped piece of rod looks rather strange in the middle.

Cheers for the help and support fellas.

[Skunk]

Just be careful taking the old one out. Don't force it.
As XJ/FROSTY said: "...she's a tad tight. Do the penetrating oil bit - at least four times - then try to get it out."
You don't want to strip the casing.

Oooh, serious for me.

[pete376403]

It was in reference to the Japanese having a system different than what everyone else is doing.

After WWII when it was found the different thread systems of the Poms and Yanks caused a few headaches two new threads were produced - unified national course (UNC) and unified national fine (UNF),which were actualy the American threads,just altered slightly.The British Wiitworth thread was really a far better thread form,but any way everyone was supposed to use the unified threads,often called SAE.But a lot of Britsh manufacterers carried on with the old threads - in low production runs it was uneconomic to change.Leyland,Rover and the British motorcycle industry were the ones I remember who didn't change.

The Yanks have taken on SI,but won't put it into practice,the Japanese pretend they have,but just merrily carry on in their own way.

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers.
Whitworth and UNC are very nearly the same thing (55 degree included angle versus 60 degree). UNC (and UNF) have a more logical relationship between bolt diameter and hex head size - mostly 1 1/2 times the bolt diameter across the flats (hence the spanner designation 1/2" AF, etc)

But who could forget that masterpiece of British engineering, Cycle Thread, 26 tpi regardless of diameter. Old Brit bikes were held together with these. I found they were virtually unobtainable outside of a mtorcycle shop, so if something fell off on the road the nearest equivalent BSF would be jammed on. The resulting thread damage usually meant it wouldn't come off again

[Motu]

Thanks for that Pete,I didn't want to go around confusing the issue even more cause stuf like Whitworth is long gone apart from those poor buggers who want to play with British bikes.Here's a good site that makes it pretty simple - it's pretty easy to get confused picking up nuts and bolts and screwing them together and nothing boody fits!

Bolt Science (http://www.boltscience.com/pages/screw2.htm)

Actualy I got a red face here - the 6mm thread is almost the only one the Japs use that corresponds to ISO,I just didn't think only one would be used to hold a filter one...of course being Japanese there are 3.

[Milky]

The snapped piece of rod looks rather strange in the middle.

That sounds to me that the nut was put on far too tight, far too many times.

I assume that cover pushes the oilfilter in, and seals with a o-ring? I wouldnt do much more than ~5Nm on the nut, but if you dont have a torque wrench, just do it up evenly until it is snug, then a little more. Check when you run it to see if there is any oil leaking and if necessary nip it up a bit more. As with the nuts for the headers, they do not need to be greatly tight.

[FROSTY]

don't swear like that around me guys --I used to sell nuts n bolts n screws for a living.
Unc ,unf,sae,metric,metric fine, reverse metric (yea reverse direction threads)
My nightmare was some bugger like Motu turning up with a bolt he'd turned up on a lathe 20 years ago wanting a replacement.