Project bikes section?

[skidMark]

Any chance we could have a project bikes section seperate from the rest?

[skidMark]

bump....................

[nodrog]

no

________________

[skidMark]

no

________________

yes

________________

[vifferman]

Seems like a reasonable idea to me (not that I have any project bikes, unless you count the VFR).
But then, wodddooeyeknow...

[Subike]

I agreee with this one as well
As I have just finnished my winter project rebuild,
and have taken it for its first ride on sat last, it went very very well!
I am very happy with the result.
Mark rode this bike back in May of this year when it was still just another old black jappa. He saw what I started with, and so have a few of the southern KB'ers. Its even been caught on vidio doing a smokie :shit:
Below is my end result, only the painting and the seat were done off site, everything elso was done in a farm shed!
To be sure doing a project bike is as much about the research as the building,
finding those parts that are going to enhance , not just fit, trying to get the overall perspective of the project looking right as a finnished job.
All respect to those of you who spend the $$ and buy the after martket bits that do the bllng thing. But a project bike IMO is different in that the end result is often a labour of love with no added value being put on the bike.

So whos got this years project bike ready for this summer .
Here is mine, my profile has some more pics, including the smokie

[CookMySock]

If you want to make a page about your project, just blog it. Project section not a dumb idea though.

Steve

[NOMIS]

Ive given up pooring in money into hornet. Wait til i get a bigger bike ;-)

[skidMark]

I agreee with this one as well
As I have just finnished my winter project rebuild,
and have taken it for its first ride on sat last, it went very very well!
I am very happy with the result.
Mark rode this bike back in May of this year when it was still just another old black jappa. He saw what I started with, and so have a few of the southern KB'ers. Its even been caught on vidio doing a smokie :shit:
Below is my end result, only the painting and the seat were done off site, everything elso was done in a farm shed!
To be sure doing a project bike is as much about the research as the building,
finding those parts that are going to enhance , not just fit, trying to get the overall perspective of the project looking right as a finnished job.
All respect to those of you who spend the $$ and buy the after martket bits that do the bllng thing. But a project bike IMO is different in that the end result is often a labour of love with no added value being put on the bike.

So whos got this years project bike ready for this summer .
Here is mine, my profile has some more pics, including the smokie

Wow, you got the seat on now, and you even mowed the lawn! :laugh:

[Nasty]

Is that not what the blog section is for ... if you check that out Trudes and others have used to for their project bikes in extremely good fashion!

[skidMark]

Is that not what the blog section is for ... if you check that out Trudes and others have used to for their project bikes in extremely good fashion!

Yeah, its just it isn't really on the main forum as such.

[AllanB]

Ive given up pooring in money into hornet. Wait til i get a bigger bike ;-)

They are cheaper if you stop falling off them. He he he he .:whistle:


Good idea. Even fairly basic 'project' mods could go in here - possibly set it up by brand as well?

eg I got a grab-rail off trademe and cut & filed it down to make a set of covers for the hole when removed as I could not afford the Rizoma ones. Total cost to me was $10. Cleaned up the rear end nicely.
Hornet lovers will also notice in the picture a non standard turn signal and modified muffler outlet. Yummy.

[CookMySock]

Yeah, its just it isn't really on the main forum as such.Link to your blog in your .sig

Steve

[NOMIS]

They are cheaper if you stop falling off them. He he he he .:whistle:


hey!!!

thats what insurance is for.. besides both claims only taken me out of pocket $400. .. sad.. only i wish I had tha money now.

[Subike]

Good point Allan
One of the things I found whilst looking for bling parts were some really nice 6mm x 35 mm metric dome bolts, off of a Mazda DOHC Astina. They were a perfect replacement for the rocker box bolts. 26 crome bolts from a car wreaker for the total of $5!
So I looked around and found that Honda car mtrs have a lot of 6 & 8 mm dome nuts on them, these match the treads on all Jap bikes, so instead of paying big dollars for custom dome nuts from a custom shop, visit the local car wreakers and look around, its surprising how many crome dome nuts can be got for a pocket full of change.

[Pedrostt500]

Good point Allan
One of the things I found whilst looking for bling parts were some really nice 6mm x 35 mm metric dome bolts, off of a Mazda DOHC Astina. They were a perfect replacement for the rocker box bolts. 26 crome bolts from a car wreaker for the total of $5!
So I looked around and found that Honda car mtrs have a lot of 6 & 8 mm dome nuts on them, these match the treads on all Jap bikes, so instead of paying big dollars for custom dome nuts from a custom shop, visit the local car wreakers and look around, its surprising how many crome dome nuts can be got for a pocket full of change.

good thinking Bat Man

[imdying]

Is that not what the blog section is for ... if you check that out Trudes and others have used to for their project bikes in extremely good fashion!

Never gets seen in comparison to the forums.

[Kickaha]

Never gets seen in comparison to the forums.

Which is why we'd asked for a "project forum" a few times

Spanky said "use the blogs"

[Nasty]

Never gets seen in comparison to the forums.

with over 7000 hits on Korojs and 3000 plus on Trudes one .. if they are good they will attract readers.

[skidMark]

with over 7000 hits on Korojs and 3000 plus on Trudes one .. if they are good they will attract readers.


Yeah but we all know i am not very good at restoring my bike. :no:

[skidMark]

Which is why we'd asked for a "project forum" a few times

Spanky said "use the blogs"


just went to blog, not even anything specific to project bikes there, i think its osmething the forum is lacking. i dont see the big deal in making one...

[Matt Bleck]

just went to blog, not even anything specific to project bikes there, i think its osmething the forum is lacking. i dont see the big deal in making one...
go start ya own forum and add a project bikes section in there. i dont see the big deal in making one...

[skidMark]

go start ya own forum and add a project bikes section in there. i dont see the big deal in making one...


Hardly the same thing,

Mannus

[Matt Bleck]

Hardly the same thing,

Mannus
ah yeah it is noddy

[Subike]

I just went into the "blog" section to see if there wer "project bikes" to be viewed,
I read one page of personal ramblings in one blog and got board with it.
So.
I went to another blog to see if I could find "project bike" I found one ......
After sifting through a few pages of blog.
Yeap it really is the right place to display your project bike to get ideas from other people who may have done what you are doing, or are doing it themselves.
Its also the right place to get lots of suggestions too.:argh:

I sorry but that "blog" section is not that good for a person wanting to do a project, a person who wants advice, or links to suppliers, good tradesmen, that sort of thing.

I guess that because Mark was the person that started this thread, everyone comes in here to look for the mud slinging that he attracts. And reading what has already been posted , that attitude is alive and well.

We have a thread for racing, motards, offroad, crusers, sports bikes, newbies
so why not for project bikes, Or is building a bike from scratch or refurbishing a bike not a thing that is high on the list of ""in"" things that bikers do!

You dont have to ride a bike to own or build one, plenty of show bikes dont get ridden, but they were project bikes to start with.

There , my bleat

[Ixion]

A "projects " forum as a sub forum of the Maintenance forum seems a valid suggestion.

Those engaged in such activities often have a wish, or need, to exchange information, ask questions, boast of achievements. And the interchange of information can often be over a period of some years - " A couple of years ago someone posted about the correct paint scheme for a 1960 Pifflecycle " etc.

There is nowhere where such postings would naturally sit as a cohesive whole.

I could see the blog thing as being suitable for an individual project record, but not for the dissemination of information that is sought . It cannot be searched for one thing which seems to be to be a conclusive failure for the purpose.

But, how many of the active membership are interested in such things. Very few I suspect. The 'typical' KBer now is not interested in getting his hands dirty. Obviously, there are exceptions. but they are just that, exceptions. I do not think that it is in line with what KB has become.

[Matt Bleck]

if it is such a big deal start ya own thread in the bike mechanics/general maintenance titled my project bike/zimmer frame.... yes it's that easy...

[skidMark]

ah yeah it is noddy


Ahhh starting a forum from scratch, oh yes that is exactly the same as spankme going **new section** . "project bikes" "talk about your project bikes here"

okay probably a little more to it than that. ie picking moderators etc.

but not the same as creating a forum from scratch.

and i'm the noddy?

good on ya mate, fail at the skidMark dig, please try again later.

[Kickaha]

But, how many of the active membership are interested in such things. Very few I suspect. The 'typical' KBer now is not interested in getting his hands dirty. Obviously, there are exceptions. but they are just that, exceptions. I do not think that it is in line with what KB has become.


I think more in line with what the modern motorcyclist has become rather than KB

[skidMark]

if it is such a big deal start ya own thread in the bike mechanics/general maintenance titled my project bike/zimmer frame.... yes it's that easy...


not a thread i'm sure im not the only one to ever do a project bike, i just think it is logical to have a sub forum to seperate project bikes from the rest, everything else is already seperated out.

If anybody else had suggested this your opinion would be different, so stop having a skidMark dig at every opportunity, i am no longer up for it, i grew up.

[Conquiztador]

I asked for this a year ago. But got the same replies. "Do it in a blog". "Start a thread in General Bikie Stuff" etc.

So I started a thread. Took a couple of days and it was so far down that you needed a digger to find it. So I gave up. Yes, I am still working on it, but not posting on here.

What's the problem re starting a section for project bikes? Surely that is more relevant then scooters...

[skidMark]

I asked for this a year ago. But got the same replies. "Do it in a blog". "Start a thread in General Bikie Stuff" etc.

So I started a thread. Took a couple of days and it was so far down that you needed a digger to find it. So I gave up. Yes, I am still working on it, but not posting on here.

What's the problem re starting a section for project bikes? Surely that is more relevant then scooters...


yeah theres scooters...buckets...mini moto....

auckland uni SMC...

all going quite well and it get alot of regulars who are interested in certain things.

maybe spankme doesnt like project bikes?

blimin fascist dictorship i tellz ya! lol

[Matt Bleck]

there is your problem right there Mark, spank has said before put it in the blog section, so as i said before go start your own forum or put up with it....


I'm not having a dig at you, i would have said this to anyone, it's not all about you.

if you have a problem with people putting forward there veiw then post up ya thread and have a mod lock it off

[vifferman]

Here is mine, my profile has some more pics, including the smokie
Noice! :niceone:

Umm... pic 2 needs some attention though. That fitting sticking up outta the seat doesn't look quite right...
Here's some ideas:

[SpankMe]

I will be looking at converting the blog software to vBulletin's blog software at same stage. It will make it easier to use and more integrated with vBulletin itself. The only problem is importing the existing blogs into the new software which may take some time to sort out.

[OutForADuck]

Seeing as pretty much all my bikes are project bikes I like this idea.

Last couple of years.. been riding project BMW R1100S with mucho work done see http://www.babelfishconsultancy.com/Flash/BeemerStream.html (Excuse over enthusiastic ramble :jerry:... had just completed a 4 month project :niceone:) Unfortunately this currently sits awaiting me to be able to afford new driveshaft bearings ("BMW's are not designed to be ridden that way sir").

Then there is the Current Gixxer K7 Streetfighter project (Very much a work in progress - see profile pic here)

and even the Madass is going to need some attention, just so it feels like home in the garage :msn-wink:

So somewhere to swap ideas etc would be a great place to be

:argue:

[vifferman]

Seeing as pretty much all my bikes are project bikes I like this idea.

Last couple of years.. been riding project BMW R1100S with mucho work done
Wow! Very nice. :niceone:


Then there is the Current Gixxer K7 Streetfighter project
Interesting front guard.
Looks lik it's gonna be a very kewl bike when finished.

Well done, Sir! :niceone:

[Subike]

Then there is the Current Gixxer K7 Streetfighter project (Very much a work in progress - see profile pic here)


:argue:


Going to be good to see that finnished for sure, nice work

[skidMark]

I will be looking at converting the blog software to vBulletin's blog software at same stage. It will make it easier to use and more integrated with vBulletin itself. The only problem is importing the existing blogs into the new software which may take some time to sort out.


No chance of it just being added? i don't see why such a big deal just to create a sub forum.

I know at leat 5 people on here who personally have projects on the go, but as others have said in other sections they just get buried.

Is it an issue regarding the bandwith usage of posting pictures or something spank?

[imdying]

with over 7000 hits on Korojs and 3000 plus on Trudes one .. if they are good they will attract readers.Well, that's sort of the point... 7000 is next to nothing. I have a thread on another of SM's sites with 30000 views, just for a single modification.

go start ya own forum and add a project bikes section in there. i dont see the big deal in making one...The point of the Site Stuff forum is so that people can ask/talk about the site.

[Matt Bleck]

Well, that's sort of the point... 7000 is next to nothing. I have a thread on another of SM's sites with 30000 views, just for a single modification.
The point of the Site Stuff forum is so that people can ask/talk about the site.
Mark's "i dont see the big deal in making one..." remark came across as condescending...

[skidMark]

Mark's "i dont see the big deal in making one..." remark came across as condescending...


Yes but your earlier comments were simply to start a skidMark bashing thread, which you failed at and now you are trying to make yourself look like less of a cock. <_<

[Matt Bleck]

Yes but your earlier comments were simply to start a skidMark bashing thread, which you failed at and now you are trying to make yourself look like less of a cock. <_<
what are you talking about that was my first post in this tread

[skidMark]

I did question this in site stuff but it would be good to get an overall opinion from the KB minions.

So the question is.

Would you like to see a sub forum on kiwibiker for Project bikes, we currently only have the blogs to do this in.

It would be good if those with projects could comment and give reasons as to why, spankme doesnt seem to keen i do not know why :no:

Skid.

[Subike]

I have a friend, who is not a KB'er, neither does he advertise. who has vast amounts of early jap bike parts. He lives close to me.
His stock numbers in the hundreds of bikes in several sheds, all sorted and labeled.
If there was a project bike thread, then I would know what is being looked for, go approach my friend, to see if he can supply the part and the cost.
There are several KB'ers who already have had good servce from this person for the building of their project bikes.
Some stated that project bikes are not the way of the modern biker, I challenge that statement, as over the winter months I have see the posting of at least one completed project bike, a Katana, and the request from at least a dozen other members wanting parts, or links to suppliers.
These have mainly been in the engine/suspension thread as thats about the only place they get viewed. Now they are off the board and lost in the ever increasing file of dead threads.
The numbers of this forum is increasing, with that increase will come diversification of ideas and types of bikes being used, built, raced, whatever. This place has to grow to keep pace with the growth of its members, a project bike thread would be a valuable addition to the forum.
I for one enjoy assisting others doing their bikes, such a thread would make that enjoyment more profitable for all involved.
Let the tarmac ever be beheath you, as you ride your pride and joy, weather you bought it with your hard earnt cash, or built it from your own sweat and perserverance.

[skidMark]

go start ya own forum and add a project bikes section in there. i dont see the big deal in making one...


ah yeah it is noddy


if it is such a big deal start ya own thread in the bike mechanics/general maintenance titled my project bike/zimmer frame.... yes it's that easy...


there is your problem right there Mark, spank has said before put it in the blog section, so as i said before go start your own forum or put up with it....


I'm not having a dig at you, i would have said this to anyone, it's not all about you.

if you have a problem with people putting forward there veiw then post up ya thread and have a mod lock it off


Mark's "i dont see the big deal in making one..." remark came across as condescending...


what are you talking about that was my first post in this tread

right.... you are on ignore.

[skidMark]

I have a friend, who is not a KB'er, neither does he advertise. who has vast amounts of early jap bike parts. He lives close to me.
His stock numbers in the hundreds of bikes in several sheds, all sorted and labeled.
If there was a project bike thread, then I would know what is being looked for, go approach my friend, to see if he can supply the part and the cost.
There are several KB'ers who already have had good servce from this person for the building of their project bikes.
Some stated that project bikes are not the way of the modern biker, I challenge that statement, as over the winter months I have see the posting of at least one completed project bike, a Katana, and the request from at least a dozen other members wanting parts, or links to suppliers.
These have mainly been in the engine/suspension thread as thats about the only place they get viewed. Now they are off the board and lost in the ever increasing file of dead threads.
The numbers of this forum is increasing, with that increase will come diversification of ideas and types of bikes being used, built, raced, whatever. This place has to grow to keep pace with the growth of its members, a project bike thread would be a valuable addition to the forum.
I for one enjoy assisting others doing their bikes, such a thread would make that enjoyment more profitable for all involved.
Let the tarmac ever be beheath you, as you ride your pride and joy, weather you bought it with your hard earnt cash, or built it from your own sweat and perserverance.


Subike for prime minister. :Punk:

[Matt Bleck]

right.... you are on ignore.
dude are you fryed?

see the the first post of mine that you have quoted? that is the same as the one imdying quoted which is what i was talking about.

[The Pastor]

there is the mechanic section - maybe it could be a sub forum, i see the reasons for having lots of sections, but i dont always think its a good idea - like splitting it up heaps makes it harder to read everything on kb.

[skidMark]

*chuckles* spank me voted he doesn't thinks it's needed, check ya email spank i wrote a rather long one to ya just now :Punk:

**mutter mutter fascist dictatorships** lol :doh:

[Ixion]

Such a section need not be restricted to complete bikes.

It could also comprise such things as the rectifier and regulator projects posted up, radar screamers, spray painting projects etc.

At present these are scattered willy nilly through a large number of forums.

This makes it very difficult for those who may wish to reference them in the future

Eg, I am doing up my bike. I need some part or other, and I recall that someone, somewhere , posted a reference to a source. But at present if I search i must include almost all forums (or laboriously do multiple individual searches), and my search will doubtless return many posts that refer to the part but in a context unrelated to a source for it. (try searching for "horn" for instance). And blogs are not searchable at all

[imdying]

Yes but your earlier comments were simply to start a skidMark bashing thread, which you failed at and now you are trying to make yourself look like less of a cock. <_<Nobody gives a shit, just drop it.

Such a section need not be restricted to complete bikes.

It could also comprise such things as the rectifier and regulator projects posted up, radar screamers, spray painting projects etc.That's an excellent suggestion. Would be nice if you could tag your thread Component or Bike as with the BSE Buy Sell tags (or whatever they are.

I didn't realise that blogs aren't searchable... that pretty much knackers that as a practical alternative.

[Brian d marge]

here you go
I started the drawings the other day , I do this sometimes when I am bored , the challenge ,,to build a chop for the least amount of money. I did it once with a triumph , this time its with an Enfield ( I have a motor sitting , not gainfully employed ,)

So I use 3d cad to get it all in the right place dont worry about the mudguard , it was an old one I had lying around , I needed a frame to get the fig dimensions. It all hangs on gas and tubes ..If i can get the gas for me gas plant , and if I can get the tubes ( I am in Japan ,,,they do things funny over here )

.......dreaming now ,,,it may be a Jockey shift ...but one thing I hate is an Unclean bike ,,cables and stuff ,,,so I am thinking of hydraulics .....I dont know ...just a thought

Stephen

[imdying]

Spankme is probably busy doing all the other things that are needed to maintain a site of this size. Making multiple threads to force the issue would just piss me off if I were him... and then you'd get nothing.

[skidMark]

Spankme is probably busy doing all the other things that are needed to maintain a site of this size. Making multiple threads to force the issue would just piss me off if I were him... and then you'd get nothing.


Perhaps, but it has been requested by other members in the past and nothing was done, i get the feeling it is a moderation issue, i am happy to moderate it myself in the way that Squiggles moderates the Auckland Uni SMC forum.

[Badger8]

spankme doesnt seem to keen i do not know why :no:

Because the request came from you? :dodge:

[skidMark]

Because the request came from you? :dodge:

As joking as that may be meant, about sums it up.

But requests have come from others also and it never happened.

[imdying]

Perhaps, but it has been requested by other members in the past and nothing was doneYou shouldn't expect something to be done. If he wants to add one, he'll add one. Just because nothing appears to be happening, does not mean that it isn't being taken into consideration.

[skidMark]

You shouldn't expect something to be done. If he wants to add one, he'll add one. Just because nothing appears to be happening, does not mean that it isn't being taken into consideration.


You his bitch or something?

[SpankMe]

Current blog software is crap. New one is much better. Wait for the upgrade.

[skidMark]

Current blog software is crap. New one is much better. Wait for the upgrade.

Okay blogging a project, that covers perhaps a personal covering off it, but it would be good to have discussion input, stuff easily accessible its not the same, even if the blog is updated to the better version, we have a forum for everything else right down to mini motos buckets....everything covered.

Just wondering why you are so intent on making it a blog.

I really can't be fucked making my own forum, nor have the funding to do it.

[imdying]

You his bitch or something?The sometimes the squeaky door gets the oil... if he's anything like me, it'll just getting a fucking axe taken to it.

Okay blogging a project, that covers perhaps a personal covering off it, but it would be good to have discussion input, stuff easily accessible its not the same, even if the blog is updated to the better version, we have a forum for everything else right down to mini motos buckets....everything covered.

Just wondering why you are so intent on making it a blog.

I really can't be fucked making my own forum, nor have the funding to do it.Perhaps the new software will cover those possibilities... Why don't you do something constructive like visiting the vBulletin developer forums and have a look for yourself?

[SpankMe]

In a blog you have control.

You can customize the look just like profile pages.
You have control over the comments made and who can make them.
Entries can be categorized.
In a thread your posts are mixed in with everyone else’s. A blog displays all your entries with a link to the comments others and yourself have made.
blogs will be full searchable

A blog will stand out more than a single thread in a mass of threads.

[skidMark]

The sometimes the squeaky door gets the oil... if he's anything like me, it'll just getting a fucking axe taken to it.


Perhaps the new software will cover those possibilities... Why don't you do something constructive like visiting the vBulletin developer forums and have a look for yourself?


The sometimes the squeky door oil...something...english much plz k thx bi.

Nah fuckit, spanks obviously adement.

i just think its stupid to make a forum for the people, then not take on board what they want, it is counter productive.

[Ixion]

I didn't realise that blogs aren't searchable... that pretty much knackers that as a practical alternative.


I think I may be wrong about that. It looks as if they are searchable, its rather weird because it SHOWS you the ordinary forums but searches blogs!.

[skidMark]

In a blog you have control.


You can customize the look just like profile pages.
You have control over the comments made and who can make them.
Entries can be categorized.
In a thread your posts are mixed in with everyone else’s. A blog displays all your entries with a link to the comments others and yourself have made.
blogs will be full searchable

A blog will stand out more than a single thread in a mass of threads.

Not what i'm after.

Just a sub forum...

but whatever.

**bows to fascist leader** :rolleyes:

[imdying]

In a thread your posts are mixed in with everyone else’s. A blog displays all your entries with a link to the comments others and yourself have made.That would be nice... that's the one area that using threads for projects falls down.

[skidMark]

Is there any way a subforum can be made with threads in it that only link to project bike blogs?

to seperate those blogs from all the rest? bah ive never used blogs, sounds like too much fucking about.

[imdying]

Not what i'm after.

Just a sub forum...

but whatever.

**bows to fascist leader** :rolleyes:You better bow down... he's been very generous to you. I would've just pushed the delete button on your account and not thought any more about it.

[skidMark]

You better bow down... he's been very generous to you. I would've just pushed the delete button on your account and not thought any more about it.


That's nice dear.:rolleyes:

[skidMark]

Okay spank meet ya in the middle, can you please make a project bikes section under blogs? i just went to make a blog but it only gives me the usual forums sport/road bikes etc.....

can you make a section in blogs for project bikes?

that is all i ask then, since you seem so adement on blogs,

so just a section for project bikes under blogging please.

[skidMark]

Thee is now a Project bikes section under blogging, chees spank.

[Conquiztador]

So after some searching I managed to find the Project section in blogging. But what happens when you have already started a blog? Can I then start a new blog for each of my projects if I want to? Or will all new entries be added to my current rambling?

I can see that this has become a "I said no and so I will not change my mind as I would look like a dork" situation.

Or perhaps there would be a chance that many of the ones with more knowledge suddenly would only care about the "Project Bike" section, and that is the reasoning behind the "NO!"?

Personally I would have no problem with any commenst a thread of mine re a project would get. Why should I? Free country.

I just can't see the logic behind the decision to be against a sub forum for Project Bikes. Perhaps I should get drunk and it would make sense.:Punk:

[Squiggles]

I've put a vote in in favour of such a forum, even as a sub forum of General maintenance... That would put it off the main forum listing, so expansion of the current forum listing would be limited. As far as the blogs go, it is a much more cumbersome system to use and view, even with updates the format isnt going to beat a subforum for ease of use.

Not only that, but as has been mentioned, sources for parts etc cant just be listed in a thread, and as with all blogs, its primarily for a person to express their opinion and progress, but not as a path by which they can seek advice and discussion on the topic at hand (This is where a thread wins hands down, it takes only a glance at this thread to see how this is so: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=33633&highlight=Project+Kro&page=2 )
I notice how the Motards forum has come about, if there is enough support could a Project forum not rise from the ashes?

Edit: Alternatively, Dirt bike projects could go to the dirt forum, Sports to the sports forum... and the parts source in the General maintenance... thus keeping the same layout while if you're interested in them, you can find them where you'll be looking already... For some reason i like this better.