Consumer Guarantee claim help - Whole motorcycle?

[Mystic13]

I'm looking for some help with a Consumer Guarantee Claim on a new motorbike with a dealer. I bought the 750cc plus bike new and it's had a series of problems as follows;

- it spent 3 of the first 6 months at the dealers
- seized clutch (known bike fault)
- replacement clutch housing and assembly
- new drive bearing (engine stripped down)
- new drive pulley (recall mod)
- two new mirrors, both failed
- new front brake rotor (warped)
- new heated grip (died)

I've been pretty patient but there is one problem that the dealer has been working on for some 20,000km's that hasn't been fixed. Finally the manufacturer has come back and said that they consider what I believe to be a design flaw and failure to be normal operation and safe. While braking, on a dry road, while riding in a straight line, not hitting the brakes hard I can lose what appears to be all brakes for up to two car lengths before the bike switches them on again. This problem is occurring worldwide and other riders internationally can make statements on this.

lastly I have an engine that appears to be deteriorating and a number of the early engines on this bike have been replaced due to failure and I have no faith that mine will last.

I have spoken with the dealer to see if we can come to some arrangement to trade the bike and I get a new model that should now be fault free. We could not agree a satisfactory price difference.

I don't want to get into discussions about which brand and bike etc.

I am looking to go for a complete refund of the purchase price. The bike is unsafe in my opinion. I have done some 30,000km's and have owned the bike for 22 months. The final response from the manufacturer was around 4-6 weeks ago but the dealer did not provide it in writing only a verbal. Last week the tech arrived back from holiday and had no further solutions to the problem. I feel I have exhausted all avenues with the dealer and manufacturer and they're ducking for cover.

I want to talk with someone who has been down this path, and hopefully succesfully or someone who has useful advice in lodging this claim properly. I want to do everything I can to be successful. If someone here has experience at this stuff and can be useful to bring on board in making the claim I would be happy to discuss paying for services.

If you know of someone who knows someone then send me a name or PM me and I'll send you my contact details to pass on.

Cheers - hopefully someone here has been down this track and been successful.

[Subike]

Name the bike mate
so that others know whats a lemon and can avoid the cheap second hand ones of the same model that appear on the market.
You are not protecting anyone by not naming it, if fact if the brakes are as bad as you say, then you could be putting an unknowing rider at risk.
Its better to know which bikes are just plain lemons.
Just for safty of the riders , at least.
As for your question re your claim?
I would take it to a lawyer on advisement
But Im sure others here will point you somewhere.

Myself? I would have asked for a refund when the clutch blew.
No way would I keep a bike that broke before it was even run in.

[Mystic13]

Fair comment on the naming. I'll think about it. The brake failure is well documented and well posted up on forums relating to the bike.

No disrespect to lawyers but when you wander through and see them it's typically all positive and you'll win type talk. In my experience you generally go for the talented character. What I need is someone who has been trhough this stuff. I get one shot at it and I really want to be shot of the bike.

Yeah, I guess I should have bailed after the clutch, I'm just pretty easy going.

Thanks.

[Trumpess]

I think you will find you are entitled to a refund.
Check out the Consumers Guarentee Act.
You brought an item, and expected it to be in top working order. It dosent matter if its a motorbike or a toaster.

Any goods purchased must meet the guarentees of acceptable quality, fitness for particular purpose, in your case.
If a guarentee is not meet, you may have rights against the trader (or in some cases the manufacturer) for a remedy to put the problem right.
If the problem is minor, the trader must provide a remedy of repair. Or the trader can choose to replace or refund.
If the problem is major (and this is you), you can reject the goods and choose between a refund or replacement.

Check out this site ....

http://www.consumeraffairs.govt.nz/consumerinfo/cga/index.html

Fight for your rights there mate.

[ArcherWC]

i would have thought 30000K's and 22 months riding it would be WAY too long to be looking at full refund

[TimeOut]

Name the bike mate
so that others know whats a lemon and can avoid the cheap second hand ones of the same model that appear on the market.
You are not protecting anyone by not naming it, if fact if the brakes are as bad as you say, then you could be putting an unknowing rider at risk.
Its better to know which bikes are just plain lemons.
Just for safty of the riders , at least.


I agree totally name it, by doing so you may even get more help/informetion for your claim(as happened with another well known brands ring problem)

As for your claim collect all the information you can to support your claim, you may be lucky to get a full refund with the k's on it but worth a try.

[Nasty]

I really don't think you need to name the bike ... Trumpess has given you guidence on the Act and that is what you need. Take it from there. You don't need lawyers - at this stage you need a discussion with the person who owns the shop that sold you the bike .. and if that fails ring the Consumer Affairs .. they can provide guidance of the process you need to engage in.

[Trumpess]

i would have thought 30000K's and 22 months riding it would be WAY too long to be looking at full refund


I think you will be quiet suprised how the Guarentee Act protects us consumers as well as the seller I will add. You have to do your homework.

The fact that the bike has a well known, and probably well documented brake fault and its a world wide problem, is testiment to itself. The bike should have been recalled in the first instance.

Consumers have protection under the act of up to 5 years on high priced items giving us reasonable hassel free use of those goods for a reasonable time after the guarentee/warrenty runs out.

And because this bike is a lemon, Mystic has every right to ask for a refund.

[Dino]

That's a list of some pretty serious problems, I for one will be staying away from this brand of bike ?? especially after hearing how well the dealer and manufacturer/importer have ducked for cover.
Good luck with your group discussions to come up with a solution.
.

[Max Preload]

Name the bike mate so that others know whats a lemon and can avoid the cheap second hand ones of the same model that appear on the market.

It may just kick start the pricks into sorting it and force their hand at a recall.


i would have thought 30000K's and 22 months riding it would be WAY too long to be looking at full refund


Consumers have protection under the act of up to 5 years on high priced items giving us reasonable hassel free use of those goods for a reasonable time after the guarentee/warrenty runs out.

No actual period is specified for anything - the CGA is deliberately open ended for a good reason. The dealer has been given the opportunity to remedy the defect and to date has been unable to do so. Considering the very serious nature of the defect and the fact the vehicle was new it is reasonable to expect a refund, but probably not in full - you have had use of the bike. That is the order I would expect would be made through the MVDT under the provisions of the CGA.

[Trouser]

BMW F800

Am I right? They are a bit of a lemon.

[Freakshow]

The bit I don't get is if it is such a lemon and really unsafe the how and why would you clock 30000km???

[trustme]

The motor vehicle side of things is covered under the motor vehicle disputes tribunal [ I think ] Sounds like you should insist on repair or replacement bike. A mate had a 1200gs with a vibration no one could fix, he insisted on & got a replacement bike.
I have just had a dispute with another manufacturer, I got 2x independant credible experts to provide an analysis of the problem then said I would seek remedy thru consumer guarrantee/ motor vehicle dispute tribunal, problem was fixed pretty quick. The problem was coming from the manufacturer not the NZ end of things.
Get documentaion , correspondence repair sheets, write letters , CREATE A PAPER TRAIL to support your claim. don't rely on verbal conversations
Then hit them with the legal stick , no more Mr Nice Guy.
Beemers are an overrated unreliable POS. IMHO , & yes I have owned one

[Mystic13]

The ABS fault occurs about every 4000km's on average. I'm aware of it and ride accordingly.

The dealer and the importer have been working on the problem continuously for overn 20,000kms. I've given them a fair shake at it. Originally the local distributor on behalf of the manufacturer said it was impossible for the problem to happen and maybe it was my imagination. The fact that it happens worldwide is of no use to them. Recently the manufacturer has finally confirmed that the event does happen and has labelled it normal operation. They have also asked me to produce the failure on demand and define the specific parameters under which it occurs so that they can replicate it. Then they will look into it further. For my part, that's not an option. it's an intermittent fault. I can't recreate it. It happens and I just want it fixed. It's not my job to analyse the system in detail.

I did have a patch where I rode very little because of the fault. I ride and am aware of it and allow for it when riding. I also know when the failure occurs that while it appears I have lost all brakes and I'm gone.... in reality I have only lost all brakes for up to two car lengths and I can respond accordingly.

What suprises me is the manufacturer is just burying their head hoping it will all go away. Riders have had minor bumps as a result of the failure. It seems only a matter of time before a rider is onjured or killed in my opinion. I feel the manufacturer should recall.

I spoke with the local transport people in Wellington and they advised me they can only publisice a fault witha vehicle if the manufacturer advises them there is one and the product should be recalled. If I and many riders worldwide have a serious failure they will do nothing until the manufacturer steps up.

I thought what a great system. A potentially lethal fault needs the person that will have to pay for the problem to be fixed to stick up their hand. If they choose not to then the whole thing is kept quiet.

Thanks for the posts folks and I'm still looking for help in taking this on. it's not my fault that I've clocked up 30,000 kms while I've been waiting for the manufacturer to fix the problem. I think I've been more than fair. Really i'd like to see a worldwide recall. It would be dissappointing to see a rider injured or killed because of this fault.

I personally think the dealer has done a bit and it's been more the manufacturer who responds to warranty issues that has been the problem.

I'll PM you trustme. At this point I don't see any other option than we will be in the MVDT. They are not interested in a trade otu so I can be rid of the problem and they can't fix it, especially now the manufacturer has labelled it normal use.

Cheers - and I'm still looking for help from someone who has been there and done that.

[slimjim]

fucking set up camp outside the pricks showroom.with a fucking big ass sign.:woohoo:.tv will be along soon:gob: an blat real loud then......:yawn:

[Mystic13]

Thanks trustme for the stuff you've sent through.

I'm still looking for the been there done that person.


Cheers

[AllanB]

Run the thing up the arse of Auntie Helen's Limo - then you will get all the publicity you require.


Actually call Fairgo and Cambell Live - if you are lucky they may be interested.


Plus I'd name the German bike here, surely you do not want anyone else having the same issue.

Can the ABS be disconnected? sounds safer without it.

[pete376403]

refer this thread - it's been done:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=81568

[Mystic13]

Thanks pete, I've PM'd the guy.

Cheers.

[riffer]

Plus I'd name the German bike here, surely you do not want anyone else having the same issue.


Allan, I think anyone with half a brain has worked out which bike it is by now.

[merv]

At least Wellington is safe, no one sells that foreign stuff here any more.

MD has been quiet on this thread and of course he had a great run with his, see this thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=41069 so it is a shame to hear of the problems you are having Mystic13.

[Mystic13]

At least Wellington is safe, no one sells that foreign stuff here any more.

MD has been quiet on this thread and of course he had a great run with his, see this thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=41069 so it is a shame to hear of the problems you are having Mystic13.


Yeah we used to talk a bit a while back when he still owned the bike. I think he went back to Triumph.

And, I got my third mirror today. I wonder what happens when I'm out of warranty. Do I just buy a mirror every 10,000km's. I have to wonder if it wouldn't be smarter for the manufacturer to re-design them rather than having them wear out and replace them.

And how would Wellington be safe... we still ride them there. And that South coast road is so unused. I was down earlier in the year doing some work for a few weeks and my morning routine was from Brooklyn, down the South Coast, coffee at Lyall Bay (or just turn around) and blat back to Brooklyn and into town. The road was empty.

Wellington City has to have the most manhole lids per kilometre in New Zealand.

I love the place. I just wish I was more into off road then.

I'll be back.

So back on topic.... anyone been there and done that with this stuff.

Cheers

[doc]

I've got an Italian thing with a lemon type problem. Out of warranty now but in the year before the warranty expired all sorts of electrical issues, but surprisingly they never experienced the problem during service checks. 1 month, I kid you not, out of warranty, it is dead in the water , nup never going to go again. It's a common problem with this model. Seems all will be fixed if I hand over $900. :eek: :confused:

[geoffm]

With the CGA, it is the dealers problem. It is up to them to deal to the NZ agents - not you. Make sure you have copies of all the repairs and history. Take a copy of the CGA - it is short, powerful and is your freind. Highlight the "consequential damages" section.

Brakes sound like the servo brakes on BMWs. A high tech solution looking for a problem to solve, and totally ruining a good bike in the process. It is one thing apart from money that would stop me buying a 2005-07 K1200S.
Geoff

[Mystic13]

With the CGA, it is the dealers problem. It is up to them to deal to the NZ agents - not you. Make sure you have copies of all the repairs and history. Take a copy of the CGA - it is short, powerful and is your freind. Highlight the "consequential damages" section.

Brakes sound like the servo brakes on BMWs. A high tech solution looking for a problem to solve, and totally ruining a good bike in the process. It is one thing apart from money that would stop me buying a 2005-07 K1200S.
Geoff

Geoff have you been down this road. The brakes issue seems to be the electronics misinterpreting what is happening and acting accordingly. Our best guess on the forum is the bike is thinking it is loosing directional stability (starting to slide) and therefore releases the brakes till it determines traction is all good. In reality we're on a dry road, braking (and not hard), in a straightline with no chance of a slide and then what appears to be loss of brakes for up to two car lengths. The manufacturer now acknowledges the event but states it is normal ABS operation. I think they have just competely missed it at best and at worst the bean counters are ducking for cover on a big recall.

What I want is a total refund at best or my bike replaced at worst. My particular bike seems to be more vibey than others and seems to have been built on a Friday by someone who'd been given their notice earlier in the day.

Oh and I got another mirror today. Apparently it didn't need tightening, it had died. My bike has now had relationships with 5 mirrors. The 2 originals and 3 replacements. Mirrors may well be classed as a consumable here.

So have you been there and done that or know someone who has.

Thanks for the info.

[Grub]

I've got an Italian thing with a lemon type problem. Out of warranty now but in the year before the warranty expired all sorts of electrical issues, but surprisingly they never experienced the problem during service checks. 1 month, I kid you not, out of warranty:

The Consumer Guarantees Act takes no notice of Warranties. It says that if you expected the bike to last longer than that when you bought it then you are entitled to be compensated for its failure.

If you had issues prior to the expiry of the warranty period and told the dealer, then you're well covered. Who is to say that they never "found" the problems during warranty service. It's the likelyhood that they found the problem but kept quiet about it on which the CGA was founded.

[cs363]

came across this:

http://www.motorcycledirect.co.uk/news152.php

And even more interestingly:

http://www.k-bikes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7719

Worth a look:
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/motorcycle_recalls/07/2004/bmw/index.html

[Trumpess]

Mystic13 .... have you even started to help yourself with this warrenty/dodggy bike issue??
The longer you leave it the harder it will be.

You have been given plenty of advice on where to start and what processes you should be concentrating on.
You could be waiting a very long time to find that person who has had a similar problem.
Meanwhile time is ticking away!
If you can't help yourself, no-one else will.

[Grub]

Cheers - and I'm still looking for help from someone who has been there and done that.


I'm still looking for the been there done that person.

Answered! (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=81568) pete376403 has been there, has done that, has won the case, has got the new bike ... so why are you still saying ....


So back on topic.... anyone been there and done that with this stuff.


Geoff have you been down this road. So have you been there and done that or know someone who has.

Answered surely :baby:. Time to get on with it. We look forward to progress reports now.

[Mystic13]

Yep, compiling everything at present. I'll let you know how it all goes when it's done.

Cheers.

(and if someone else pops out of the woodwork who has been there and done that then all the better)

I have two aims;

1/ get out of my bike because it can't be fixed by the manufacturer

2/ get enough happening that the manufacturer realises this is a serious issue and fixes it. I'll be forwarding a copy of my info to the manufacturer direct and when the hearing is done, if and when I win, I will publisize it on the net with the aim of trying to get the manufacturer to acknowledge and fix the fault. In my opinion it seems it will only be a matter of time before a rider is injured or killed.

Thanks for the comments.

[doc]

The Consumer Guarantees Act takes no notice of Warranties. It says that if you expected the bike to last longer than that when you bought it then you are entitled to be compensated for its failure.

If you had issues prior to the expiry of the warranty period and told the dealer, then you're well covered. Who is to say that they never "found" the problems during warranty service. It's the likelyhood that they found the problem but kept quiet about it on which the CGA was founded.

But but I'd rather be riding it summers here. :stupid: Rather cough up the 8 hundy than wait months with no guarantee it will be in my favour.

[Max Preload]

But but I'd rather be riding it summers here. :stupid: Rather cough up the 8 hundy than wait months with no guarantee it will be in my favour.

Those aren't the only choices you have. Having been advised of the problem and denying coverage under warranty by the dealer, you can elect to have the problem fixed, at your cost, then make a claim against the dealer for the amount. You don't lose the use of the goods and you'll more than likely get the money back in fairly short order.

[doc]

Problem is bike purchased from basically a clothing shop.

No authorised service facility in Auckland. Service consists of dropping bike of at shop, technician picks it up in a van takes it home and drops it back when ready.

Importer on sold importation to another party.

Manufacturer taken over by another Motorcycle company.

:shit: Haven't got the energy to fight with them. Easier to pickup tab and ride. If I can get a replacement part.

[slimjim]

gee's...wouldn't yea rather pay $35 to small claims court...fill in details on claim at courthouse....chicks are good if behind counter..will help you heaps'........i think can be heard upto $7500 for $35 dollar fee...courtpapers will be servied within three working days......to other party........still be twenty-eight days before hearing set...gives ya time to gain.."what still to do"..

[BMWST?]

gee's...wouldn't yea rather pay $35 to small claims court...fill in details on claim at courthouse....chicks are good if behind counter..will help you heaps'........i think can be heard upto $7500 for $35 dollar fee...courtpapers will be servied within three working days......to other party........still be twenty-eight days before hearing set...gives ya time to gain.."what still to do"..

make sure the value that can be claimed in small claims court is equal to the value of the bike...cos thats what it may come down to

[Mystic13]

make sure the value that can be claimed in small claims court is equal to the value of the bike...cos thats what it may come down to

Thanks, there are two sets of conversations going on above, one for me and one for Doc.

I'm, claiming at MVDT Motor Vehicles Disputes Tribunal and they have a much higher limit so the new price of the vehicle is well covered.

The post from Pete376403 was incredibly useful. Thanks for that.

I've been in touch with Digitdion referred to in that post and all of my remaining questions have been answered.

Thanks for all the information and stuff sent through from everyone. Much appreciated.

I'll post up after I'm done one way or another. I understand that could take 6 weeks or so.



Yes it is the BMW F800. Seeing as you lot figured that out. You can drift across to www.f800riders.org and you'll see a fair bit posted up on the ABS by those who have experienced the apparent loss of brakes and also many comments by riders who have not experienced it but have advice on the matter including riding techniques etc.

Ultimately all of those riders that experience it describe it as not normal operation, scary and dangerous.

I expect the MDVT to side with me and the bike to go back to the dealer.


Cheers - Des

[pete376403]

Answered! (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=81568) pete376403 has been there, has done that, has won the case, has got the new bike ... so why are you still saying ....
.

Not me - I still have and still love my KLR. The one that was replaced belonged to a guy from Queenstown.
I did however use info from that guy (DigitDion)to help with my warranty claim for oil consumption issues - and it's going to Motorad next Monday for new rings and valve guide seals

[Grahameeboy]

The ABS fault occurs about every 4000km's on average. I'm aware of it and ride accordingly.

The dealer and the importer have been working on the problem continuously for overn 20,000kms. I've given them a fair shake at it. Originally the local distributor on behalf of the manufacturer said it was impossible for the problem to happen and maybe it was my imagination. The fact that it happens worldwide is of no use to them. Recently the manufacturer has finally confirmed that the event does happen and has labelled it normal operation. They have also asked me to produce the failure on demand and define the specific parameters under which it occurs so that they can replicate it. Then they will look into it further. For my part, that's not an option. it's an intermittent fault. I can't recreate it. It happens and I just want it fixed. It's not my job to analyse the system in detail.

I did have a patch where I rode very little because of the fault. I ride and am aware of it and allow for it when riding. I also know when the failure occurs that while it appears I have lost all brakes and I'm gone.... in reality I have only lost all brakes for up to two car lengths and I can respond accordingly.

What suprises me is the manufacturer is just burying their head hoping it will all go away. Riders have had minor bumps as a result of the failure. It seems only a matter of time before a rider is onjured or killed in my opinion. I feel the manufacturer should recall.

I spoke with the local transport people in Wellington and they advised me they can only publisice a fault witha vehicle if the manufacturer advises them there is one and the product should be recalled. If I and many riders worldwide have a serious failure they will do nothing until the manufacturer steps up.

I thought what a great system. A potentially lethal fault needs the person that will have to pay for the problem to be fixed to stick up their hand. If they choose not to then the whole thing is kept quiet.

Thanks for the posts folks and I'm still looking for help in taking this on. it's not my fault that I've clocked up 30,000 kms while I've been waiting for the manufacturer to fix the problem. I think I've been more than fair. Really i'd like to see a worldwide recall. It would be dissappointing to see a rider injured or killed because of this fault.

I personally think the dealer has done a bit and it's been more the manufacturer who responds to warranty issues that has been the problem.

I'll PM you trustme. At this point I don't see any other option than we will be in the MVDT. They are not interested in a trade otu so I can be rid of the problem and they can't fix it, especially now the manufacturer has labelled it normal use.

Cheers - and I'm still looking for help from someone who has been there and done that.

The Dealer should replace and deal with manufacturer...

[Dino]

I wish you all the best Mystic, I have to say it is a real eye opener for me that BMW and their dealer have treated you this way and ducked for cover. Shame they don't copy Mr Martin's policy of "It's the putting right that counts"

All the best for a good out come.
.

[trustme]

There have been a few dealers walk away from a beemer franchise because of the warranty claims & attitude of the mother ship .
The good ones are great but the lemons can be absolute shockers.
Euro electrics whether it be cars or bikes do not have the build quality of the japs, when the problems start they are a nightmare.

[kiwi cowboy]

good luck with the claim.

[Mystic13]

Thanks, I need all the luck I can get.

The local guys have done a fair bit of work. I see this as a lack of action by "the mothership" as someone put it. Or BMW Germany.

Cheers.

[Tony]

Another possible idea is to write to the the Hon Harry Duynhoven, Minister fro Transport Safety. I know first hand that he does personally respond to issues raised and I recently had a good reply/result on an issue I raised with his office.

[Tony]

Out of curiosity I just did a search on "motorbike abs brake failure" in google. Seems one brand of bike has a very high failure rate for ABS brake modulators - temporary result no brakes.