Another free lunch

[trustme]

Labour has announced an expansion of the student allowance as another election vote catcher. Don't these guys understand that in the current world economic environment & given that the govt is going to run deficits for the next 10 years with out taking the overseas meltdown into account, it is a time to cut costs not expand govt spending on nice to have policies.
Many years ago my late mum fumed about Piggies blatant election bribe of a universal super, she voted for it because she would have been stupid not to, but she said that it would send the country broke.. Well she was right, broke we went because of Piggies 'spend like there was no tomorrow' policies all done on borrowed money
The consequence of that was Rogernomics & a huge amount of pain for the ordinary working man. The last 10 years have seen the rewards for all that pain , trouble is you & I have not seen it. The govt has spent our windfall by regrowing the public sector that sent us broke in the first place. Thay have poured money into students & created a huge ongoing liability that you & I will have to shoulder. When govt income is decreasing a prudent manager would look to control costs not expand them.
This govt will land us back in the same strife that Piggie created, different methods, different policies but same end result, a public sector we can no longer afford , more Rogernomics but this time no family silver to sell off.

I have a wife & 3 kids who attend tertiary institutions , it is good news for us, it is bad news for the country

[Waxxa]

Interesting Trustme! If labour hadn't been running surpluses for the last several years, our economy would be much worse off and our economy has come about by world economics and not our Govt. policies. (I'm not a Labour man by the way).

But the Govt can not stop expenditure particularly on things like education and research and development because we need to become a technological and skilled workforce.

This monies can be found in existing expenditure that needs to be redirected. E.G. simplify the Resource management act, get rid of useless Govt. departments like the welfare system like the dole and dpb's, maori and youth depts are debateable and many more examples.

Does the country need the feeble tax cuts we have now? Does $18 do it for you or can that tax be directed into education etc?

[Hitcher]

Politics aside, the issue of who pays for education is something that governments need to address and develop some sort of cross-party accord on. As has been noted above, there is no such thing as "free". Everything has a cost, including education.

The issue is how much of the cost should fall on the shoulders of those who benefit directly from the gaining of education, and how much should be funded by taxpayers. Clearly there is benefit to taxpayers from people becoming educated (other than themselves), so there is a case for them funding some. But how much? Where is the most equitable place for the pendulum to come to rest?

And then there's the issue of education that may not necessarily have "vocational" value, such as fine arts, social sciences, extremely applied sciences and the like. How mature is our society to extend the same priviledges to students in these areas as they extend to the endless lawyers, accountants, medical doctors and the like?

[Tank]

Does the country need the feeble tax cuts we have now? Does $18 do it for you or can that tax be directed into education etc?

yes - the country needs tax cuts - more $$$ on ones pocket does help stimulate the economy - and that is something that is desperately needed.

Having worked at a uni for 6 years - I can tell you 1/2 of them piss any money they have up against the wall. Because of my income my kids received $0 - and I made them pay their own way thru Uni - best thing I could have done.

Giving them handouts achieves nothing.

[caesius]

Politics aside, the issue of who pays for education is something that governments need to address and develop some sort of cross-party accord on. As has been noted above, there is no such thing as "free". Everything has a cost, including education.

The issue is how much of the cost should fall on the shoulders of those who benefit directly from the gaining of education, and how much should be funded by taxpayers. Clearly there is benefit to taxpayers from people becoming educated (other than themselves), so there is a case for them funding some. But how much? Where is the most equitable place for the pendulum to come to rest?

And then there's the issue of education that may not necessarily have "vocational" value, such as fine arts, social sciences, extremely applied sciences and the like. How mature is our society to extend the same priviledges to students in these areas as they extend to the endless lawyers, accountants, medical doctors and the like?

"extremely applied sciences" - What, like Engineering?

Oh yeah that has bugger all vocational value.

[trustme]

My bitch is that in business terms labour has not grown the business , they have grown the overheads. Our growth rate in comparison to other countries has been poor, in relative terms we have gone backwards. I'm not anti students & I fully agree re RMA & useless govt departments. They have thrown truckloads of money at health & education but treasury reports state that nothing has improved , the spending is poorly targeted & poorly controlled. $18 tax cut , That is the difference between labour & nat tax policy . if it wasn't for a groundswell of public opinion & the Nats policy , labour would not have given you any tax cut at all.

[Mully]

Interesting Trustme! If labour hadn't been running surpluses for the last several years, our economy would be much worse off and our economy has come about by world economics and not our Govt. policies. (I'm not a Labour man by the way).


There is of course, a segment which believe that Labour should have cut taxes when times were good. Thereby growing our economy and insulating us from the worst of the economic "cruch"




The issue is how much of the cost should fall on the shoulders of those who benefit directly from the gaining of education, and how much should be funded by taxpayers. Clearly there is benefit to taxpayers from people becoming educated (other than themselves), so there is a case for them funding some. But how much? Where is the most equitable place for the pendulum to come to rest?

And then there's the issue of education that may not necessarily have "vocational" value, such as fine arts, social sciences, extremely applied sciences and the like. How mature is our society to extend the same priviledges to students in these areas as they extend to the endless lawyers, accountants, medical doctors and the like?

I like National's policy on this - if you are a nurse or doc in a hard to staff area, part of your student loan is wiped.

I would like to see that applied to professionals (that we need) who stay in NZ earning too.


You know what the engineering graduate said to the arts graduate?
Big Mac Combo please.

[Indiana_Jones]

"Most of these students would receive no allowance under the current rules and need to borrow, receive help from their parents or work part-time, to make ends meet," Helen Clark said.

Holy shit!

We can't have them working part-time now can we?! :shit:

-Indy

[trustme]

You know what the engineering graduate said to the arts graduate?
Big Mac Combo please.


I cracked up but my daughter who is last year BA can't see the funny side
Wonder why ???

We encourage kids to do all sorts of bullshit courses at tech & uni that will not equip them for a job & we give them $150/week to waste their time & our money. Misdirected & poorly targeted

[Tank]

So - lets look at the difference:

edited from Kiwiblog:

Labour announced it would borrow more than $200 million a year (once fully implemented) to give out cash to students. It will not result in one more student being educated. It is simply a cash hand out to students.

National announced it would spend $47 million a year on boosting literacy and numeracy in schools, because almost 1 in five kids are leaving school unable to read, write or count. There is no point in keeping kids at school until they are 18, if you have let them get past age eight without checking their numeracy and literacy.

[Nasty]

For a country entering 10 years of deficit .. I think giving away more money is a great idea .. and hey top it off .. lets borrow it!

[vifferman]

Having worked at a uni for 6 years - I can tell you 1/2 of them piss any money they have up against the wall. Because of my income my kids received $0 - and I made them pay their own way thru Uni - best thing I could have done.
Giving them handouts achieves nothing.
I've currently got two kids at university, and like you, they receive no help at all from the Gummint, because we're "too rich". :rolleyes: Unfortunately, we can't actually afford to pay for their education even though we're so fantabulously wealthy. We do give them free board, food, etc. though.
As for handouts, I reckon it would be nice if they at least got a fraction of what someone on the dole gets. The oldest one is doing pharmacy, and has a very modest student loan, and that only by dint of working every weekend and almost all of every 'vacation' in a butchery. Although he gets paid a bit above minimum wage (because he's been doing it for years), it leaves him almost nothing to live off. He'd be screwed if we didn't support him.
He doesn't piss HIS money against the wall - he's worked too hard for it. Apart from borrowing to pay his course fees at the beginning of each year, and then paying them off slowly through the year, he's borrowed nothing, and doesn't owe a debt to society.
The other one's another story, but I don't want to go there, especially since it's his birthday today. Wouldn't do to slag him off...
The middle one went to uni for a week, couldn't handle it, and dropped out. (No, he's not too dumb, despite saying he is - he's actually smarter'n 99% of the population. He's currently working as a computer services consultant).

[trustme]

So - lets look at the difference:

edited from Kiwiblog:



National announced it would spend $47 million a year on boosting literacy and numeracy in schools, because almost 1 in five kids are leaving school unable to read, write or count. There is no point in keeping kids at school until they are 18, if you have let them get past age eight without checking their numeracy and literacy.

But they don't vote.

[avgas]

well its too little to late as far as im concerned, i'm leaving in a few days.
in fact the only reason im still here was due to "interest free" student loans. Which is all BS as i should have got ANY allowance when i was studying anywho.
How the fuck do you support an economy that tells you, you are making -$150/week?
I should have done the smart thing, gone to uni, but told the government i was unemployed.
Rather than work the 20 hours a week, on top of my 40 hour study....just to pay bills.
That and Helen is fucking ugly. Who the fuck wants a fucking ugly pitbull for a political leader. No class. Even Hitler and Stalin had some class.

[Mully]

But they don't vote.

Dead on. Can't bling cos I'm on my iPod, but that is dead right.

That's why the greens want to lower the voting age. Teenagers are idealogical, and will most likely vote for the hippies.

[MotoGirl]

So, how many of these students are going to use it to reduce their debt? I'm picking that it won't be many so the whole scheme is just a waste of money.

This will be an easy ride for serial academics who'll never stop studying and actually work.

[riffer]

Giving them handouts achieves nothing.

I disagree. It achieves more votes for Labour.

But just wait - if Labour do get in again due to the lollies they're handing out, what's going to be the first thing to go - the tax cuts.

EVERY party in this election has a hidden agenda.

[trustme]

The tax cuts wont go but all sorts of new indirect taxes will be introduced to claw money back, it has already started, AK fuel surcharge, carbon credit/ emmision trading tax that no none understands

[davereid]

...The issue is how much of the cost should fall on the shoulders of those who benefit directly from the gaining of education, and how much should be funded by taxpayers. Clearly there is benefit to taxpayers from people becoming educated (other than themselves), so there is a case for them funding some....

So...

We are both 17, having passed the 7th form.

You want to benefit the community by being a lawyer or a dentist. You face an investment of 5 years, and maybe $200K. At the end, you will have the potential to earn a very good income.

I, on the otherhand want to be a truck driver. I inverst $200k in a Scania B-Train. At the end of 5 years, I have a clapped out truck, and have paid tens of thousands of dollars in tax, road user charges, etc etc.

We both invested the same amount of money and time.. maybe we should consider handing out free trucks to worth drivers...

[Swoop]

Now would be a good time to buy shares in a brewery. With an extra $150- per student going to be "invested" in the alcohol consumption business, those shares are going to go up!


Have they made it clear if overseas students are entitled to this allowance?
The worst students that I have encountered were the internationals who had Mummy and Daddy paying for their studies... and their "small commuter car to get to uni", and their "modifications to make the commuter car go a little bit faster"... then all of those tickets that they seemed to attract... then the lawyers bill and the court costs...

They certainly need that $150.:beer:


This will be an easy ride for serial academics who'll never stop studying and actually work.
Like the prime minister, perhaps...?

[geoffm]

My Significant Other works with preschool children (and their kids too :dodge:. That and having kiddies at school, and doing work for a number of Min of Education primary and high schools for work, and a coupel of years as a student myself gives me a few opinions.
This is the most blatent vote grab since the last one. The money is going to the wrong place, you know there are problems when:
When uni students have to have remedial maths and english (and they are supposed to be the brightest we have).
When The Minsitry of Education has an allowance for $1750/sqm to build a school - inlcuding all professional fees and costs. You can't build a house for that, and a school sees a lot harder life than any house, then they can't afford to repair the cheap shabby job because the funding isn't enough.
The Unis can't pay their staff enough to keep them, or fun proper R&D and facilities.
Our so-called free education is a joke. My kids school volentary donation fees are $500+ PA (and going up) - for a local primary school

I am with National- it starts in the foundations with the basics. Given how many teachers are rabid labour supporters, and Labour MPs are teachers, I don't know if is cause or effect we have this mess.
Geoff

[Hitcher]

Teenagers are idealogical, and will most likely vote for the hippies.

They're not voting at all. The Electoral Commission can't even get them to register. Our ancestors spilled litres of blood earning the right to vote and some of our fellow citizens can't even get off their bloated taxpayer-funded arses and exercise their franchise. Teenagers included.

[Okey Dokey]

Just another "vote for me" bribe. Students can work part-time if cost is an issue. There are also interest free loans.

Maybe they will appreciate their opportunities a little more if they have to expend a little effort of their own, rather than have it handed to them on a plate.

[SPman]

Just another "vote for me" bribe. Students can work part-time if cost is an issue. There are also interest free loans.

Maybe they will appreciate their opportunities a little more if they have to expend a little effort of their own, rather than have it handed to them on a plate.

People have a strange idea about what most students do with their fees and allowances money. One year. my younger son had to borrow extra on his student loan to get enough to actually eat - his part time job paid for his rent and fuck all else but he didn't qualify for an allowance because his mother and I, although we lived at different ends of the country, earned just over the massive $50,000 or whatever it was, between us. And he was not alone in that , by any means. "Piss it up against the wall" - most of them would love to have enough money to buy 1 stubby a week!
Not all students come from Epsom or Remmers families!

[hazard02]

God damn. I've lived the past 3 years borrowing to live. Due to the income cap I don't qualify for any free money, but nor do I recieve any help with bills/rent/fees from my parents (divorced). Rather frustratingly, I know of several students who live at home with very well-off (and generous) parents who, due to convinient circumstances and/or stuff-ups, recieve between $100-$150 a week absolutely free. A "free money for all" scheme that is set to come into play right after I graduate is salt in the wounds really.

Bitterness aside, it is a terrible idea. Why on earth they haven't tried to introduce a fair system which grants students who actually need it the money. Or perhaps some incentive that pays off a certain amount of your student loan for every year you work in the country after graduating (with the amount being in regards to expertise that we desperately need to hold onto).

This short-sighted bribe is only going to encourage more drop-kicks who have no idea what to do after High school to cram into our universities and drink the taxpayers money away.

[avgas]

Anyone else find it ironic that the "Labour" party has nothing to do with working?

[avgas]

Our ancestors spilled litres of blood earning the right to vote
I always find that comment amusing, spilling of blood so you can vote.
What country can't vote these days? crikey even Cuba is fairly open slather....china has an elected house of reps......Ukraine is sick of voting.....
You have to laugh at it a little really, because the very sad truth was "was it all a waste"......which would only make me cry

[jrandom]

Politics aside, the issue of who pays for education...

An eloquent restatement of the question.

Do you also happen to hold an actual opinion on the correct answer?

:sherlock:

[jrandom]

I would note that no amount of money borrowed by the State and given to 'students' will change the fact that the vast majority of people, tertiary-educated or otherwise, are idiots.

[vifferman]

Even if they have registered to vote, do you think uni students will vote for someone just because they get promised more money? Or are they likely to vote however the hell they were (or were not) going to vote anyway, regardless of bribes?

As for means testing and whatnot, the whole thing's crap as it is. My sister-in-law completed a degree as a mature student last year, and while she was doing it, she borrowed as much money as she could from the Gummint (as did her son, but he did piss it up against the wall), invested it, then paid the loan back. Dunno what she did with the interest - perhaps it was part of the deposit for one of the three rental properties their family trust owns...

[jrandom]

Cuba is...

Under the iron fist of the Castro dynasty, as it has been for the last few decades.


china has...

Precisely what it has always had - a ruling class with a rigid grip on power and no respect for human life, and hundreds of millions of peasants programmed from birth to do what they're told. The labels may change, but the reality has been the same for thousands of years.


Ukraine is...

An impotent chunk of the traditional Russian 'buffer zone'. No matter how much blood its inhabitants spill and how many 'votes' they cast for local leaders, they will always be slaves of geography.

I agree with Hitcher - you value your personal and political freedom, and the lucky coincidence of your birthplace, far too lightly.

[davereid]

Pretty clearly, I don't support a universal student allowance.

But I do find it difficult to cope with the idea that if you are sitting on your arse smoking P, you qualify for the dole, or a sickness benefit.

Chuck the pipe away and enrol at the polytech, suddenly you need to take out a student loan to survive.

Somehow it justs sends the wrong message.

[hazard02]

Even if they have registered to vote, do you think uni students will vote for someone just because they get promised more money?
Most students would vote for you if you offered them a 6-pack and a sandwich.

[Mully]

I would note that no amount of money borrowed by the State and given to 'students' will change the fact that the vast majority of people, tertiary-educated or otherwise, are idiots.

I like the saying "Dammit man, what's the point of being educated if you're stupid?"

[avgas]

I was going to reply to this, correct peoples remarks....but then i sat down.....
where did we go wrong?
What happened to you kiwibiker? Is the govt that bad here?
We used to talk about bikes man........

[Indiana_Jones]

What happened to you kiwibiker? Is the govt that bad here?


yes, it is.

-Indy

[Squiggles]

*Student wanders into the thread*


This short-sighted bribe is only going to encourage more drop-kicks who have no idea what to do after High school to cram into our universities and drink the taxpayers money away.

It is nothing but a shortsighted bribe


The student allowances offer from labour is nothing but an attempt at buying us off, i note they completely ignored calls for one over the last few years, and gave what, a 5% (dont quote me on it, it was piss all) increase in student allowances early in the year, when a much higher was called for to bring it back into line with the costs of living... bet they said anything more would have been irresponsible and dangerous to the economy. I wont be bought.

I care and i dont have the burden of debt, im going through on a scholarship... in return i'll spend some years teaching the next generation of little shits (I'd like to think i wasnt one :laugh:).

I think we need a students vs everyone else thread on here :laugh:

[imne1]

I'm a student. you've all missed the point. 40k cap on parents income rules out money that the majority of students need and yet the dole is universal. I spent 3 months on a sickness benefit and it payed $25 a week more than the student allowance. Students have way more costs to bare: transport, food, books, stationary/internet/printing etc. believe me there are a hell of a lot more expenses than there were during those 3 months I spent sitting on my ass playing games.
SO .. in short: universal student allowance is good, should sstart income testing for the unemployment benefit instead (how many rich kids get the dole?)

[idleidolidyll]

and in the meantime John Key is trying to steal from the superannuation fund to pay for his tax cuts.

part of his idea to enforce 40% 'investment' in NZ businesses from the fund is the ability for the government to borrow from it. That would mean the government would borrow from the taxpayer fund and the loan would be paid back by the taxpayer with interest.

Talk about hollow men, that's just another way to tax us without calling it a tax.

[Dilligaf]

Ha! Well if your average student is too stupid to realise that you are a student for 4 years (average) but a taxpayer for life, then maybe you kiwis deserve another three years with Heilen.
Sure, get your allowance now, pay for thousands of others for the rest of your life...
:stupid:

[Mully]

part of his idea to enforce 40% 'investment' in NZ businesses from the fund is the ability for the government to borrow from it. That would mean the government would borrow from the taxpayer fund and the loan would be paid back by the taxpayer with interest.

Hi III,

At the risk of taking this (further) off topic than you have above (mods, feel free to move if you want), do you have any proof that this is John Key's "Idea" or are you just supposing?

Even if you do have proof, isn't it much the same as the Government borrowing from anywhere to fund anything? Except, that the "return" (from the taxpayer to the Super Fund) is staying controlled in NZ? In which case, isn't it better that Govt borrows from the fund in NZ rather than from overseas?
Plus, I presume the borrowing could be at a more favourable interest rate from the Super Fund than from overseas. As well as avoiding being bitten by unfavourable exchange rates. (I'm assuming a common currency, obviously)

Also (assuming again that you are correct), from the Super Fund's point of view, isn't lending to Government a more secure investment than, say, chucking your money at a finance company paying 2% more?

[Squiggles]

I'm a student. you've all missed the point. 40k cap on parents income rules out money that the majority of students need and yet the dole is universal. I spent 3 months on a sickness benefit and it payed $25 a week more than the student allowance. Students have way more costs to bare: transport, food, books, stationary/internet/printing etc. believe me there are a hell of a lot more expenses than there were during those 3 months I spent sitting on my ass playing games.
SO .. in short: universal student allowance is good, should sstart income testing for the unemployment benefit instead (how many rich kids get the dole?)

I take a different stand on this, income testing is the most fail system anyway, but i dont think allowances should be payouts while studying... if however, a similar system to what the teachnz scholarships offer was applied, i'd be all for it. Especially in terms of return on investment. With many of us buggering off o/s after we get a degree, we could essentially have the best part of a free education then fuckoff without putting anything back in. With the teachnz thing, they pay all the fees, and give you a bit of cash, in return you do the same # of years teaching here in nz, no paying them back in cash. They get what they want... i.e. teachers & tax payers.
Its also a brilliant idea on the merit that, if i study for 4 years, by the time i've done the study and then 4 years teaching, i might be starting a family here etc etc...
If i decide to stop or not do the time, it just becomes a loan. You get a couple of years to go about whatever (have an oe, go try something else). Thoughts?

[trustme]

Squiggles, In principle I have no real issue with it , don't know how it would cost out & what happens to the people who do dumb courses that will not result in a job when completed, pretty hard to bond people if there is no job for them.

[Hitcher]

Sometimes I wonder if it's wise giving people a vote just because they're 18 years or older. This thread is one such cause of wonder.

[Pixie]

National announced it would spend $47 million a year on boosting literacy and numeracy in schools, because almost 1 in five kids are leaving school unable to read, write or count.

One in five leave university in that state,these days,as well.

[idleidolidyll]

Hi III,

At the risk of taking this (further) off topic than you have above (mods, feel free to move if you want), do you have any proof that this is John Key's "Idea" or are you just supposing?



Mully, you should know by now that there is little to no 'proof' of anything in politics. All you can do is listen to the verbalised policies and then try to figure out what they are not telling you and what that means.

Key has siaid both that he wants 40% of the super fund invested in NZ and also that he thinks the idea of the government 'using' the money 'short term' is a good idea.

Add 1+1, factor in that he's National and a Hollow Man and it doesn't take much of a leap to see that he wants to spend the super fund in the short term instead of using other income streams to fund his government.
He's placed himself between a rock and a hard place with his stupid tax cut bribes: to fund them we have to either find money somewhere else or cut services or both. Johnny boy is drooling at the mouth with the prospect of spending up on the super fund to make it LOOK like he's able to balance the books.

I predict increased debt and as with the last Nat Govt; massive reductions in real income compared to our nearest neighbor.

[MisterD]

Mully, you should know by now that there is little to no 'proof' of anything in politics. All you can do is listen to the verbalised policies and then try to figure out what they are not telling you and what that means.

Key has siaid both that he wants 40% of the super fund invested in NZ and also that he thinks the idea of the government 'using' the money 'short term' is a good idea.

He's also said that 40% figure will be the only intervention by politicians, and that it is a medium-long term goal - he will not be directing the fund trustees to crystalise huge losses internationally by moving immediately.

Government bonds will be issued to fund some infrastructure development, and it's likely that the "cullen" fund will invest in some of those - that's just part of a prudent investment strategy. Sheesh, I'll likely buy some myself.

We're looking at a situation where international funding is going to be hard to get for Kiwi companies - why not invest at home rather than in someone elses infrastructure, or are you just pissed that the left got gazzumped by good policy?




I predict increased debt and as with the last Nat Govt; massive reductions in real income compared to our nearest neighbor.

Increased debt is coming, that's a given and it's Cullen's tax and spend policies you should worry about...if he get's back in (shudder) I guarantee that the superfund will suddenly "decide" to invest in his trainset.

[trustme]

I predict increased debt and as with the last Nat Govt; massive reductions in real income compared to our nearest neighbor.

That is about the only part of your post that makes sense, however that debt will be incurred by whoever is in power be it Labor or National & it will be caused by the last 9 years of uncontrolled govt spending & a reserve bank that pushed up interest rates, between them they squeezed the private sector so hard it stalled, witness the collapse of the construction industry
Any govt is going to have a serious shortfall of funds to carry out their policies due to a self inflicted reduction in tax revenue, exacerbated by the overseas meltdown. The real hit is yet to come.
I started this thread because it is exactly this type of policy that is growing the public sector to a point where it is so dominant in the economy that when the hard times come we either run enormous deficits or make huge public spending cuts , your choice.

Something to ponder
The finance sector made up 25% of the US economy when the current collapse happened
The last collapse happenend with the tech stocks reached 25% of the market
Public sector makes up 40% of our economy , when a sector gets too big there is an inevitable & painful adjustment [ Rogernomics ]
So who wants to take bets on when our readjustment will take place.

[davereid]

....Key has siaid both that he wants 40% of the super fund invested in NZ and also that he thinks the idea of the government 'using' the money 'short term' is a good idea....

Its true that investing N.Z. money in N.Z. projects may not return the tax-payer the same rates as he cold possibly have recieved investing overseas.

However, Mr. Cullens clumsy "Cullen Fund" investments lose about $2-3 Million a day, so clearly chasing the high return is not always wise.

But at least we WILL end up with the asset we have invested in, rather than it being a malaysian road, that we will never get paid for.


....He's placed himself between a rock and a hard place with his stupid tax cut bribes: to fund them we have to either find money somewhere else or cut services or both.....


Actually thats true.

Even though Mr Key made generous provision for poor financial performance by Labour, no one could have reasonably forseen the real mess the books were in until Mr. Cullen was forced to open them.

Hardly Mr. Keys fault, but no doubt one we will hear about from you for the next few years as if it were Nationals fault they took the helm of of a leaky, rudderless ship, whose skilled crew had long since moved to the mainland..

[Flatcap]

At the risk of getting this slightly back on topic

This thing that annoys me about this is that the year I started uni (early 90s)they introduced fees and moved the goal posts on allowances. Unlike current students, my parents didn't have the opportunity to put aside money


On each consecutive year they increased fees and moved the allowance goal posts further. I also had to pay interest on my student loan right up to when it was paid back (and right after that they wiped interest!)

So since students of my cohort were royally screwed, I begrudge any concession current students get.

[Waxxa]

If someone wants an education, then all peoples should have an allowance to help with living costs. With Labour lifting the 'cap' on what parents earn will ensure that everyone gets something. This is a good thing.

The problem I have with Uni is that they dick around with presenting a course lesson, a couple of hours a week. No wonder it takes 3-5 years to complete a course. How does someone survive on $150 a week for that long. it's bullshit!

Also, how many doctors, lawyers does this country need? if we have enough then these courses should be stopped until such time as we need doctors and lawyers and instead push people into vocational areas that this country requires.

As for tax cuts, $18 a week is crap! That wont cover increases in fuel, food, power etc. If the tax cut was $50-$70, now we're talking. I would rather see my $18 go to the pensioners. The Govt. should leave taxes as they were and remove GST off food, fuel, power and water. This I feel, would generate more consumer spending.

[idleidolidyll]

Hi III,

At the risk of taking this (further) off topic than you have above (mods, feel free to move if you want)


good grief Mully, this is politics; it's all intertwined.

for your benefit: i graduated a few years ago and have obviously been on the student side of this debate.

means testing students is correct, funding should be for those who actually need it.

this is a brazen bribe to the right wing's 18 year olds who get to vote for the first time.

[trustme]

for your benefit: i graduated a few years ago and have obviously been on the student side of this debate.

What degree did you get ???

[SPman]

I like the saying "Dammit man, what's the point of being educated if you're stupid?"
There's a difference between education and learning.

[shingo]

Also, how many doctors, lawyers does this country need? if we have enough then these courses should be stopped until such time as we need doctors and lawyers and instead push people into vocational areas that this country requires.

Good idea, lets force people to learn something they won't enjoy, that'll keep them in the country.

p/t

[SPman]

When I went to Uni...(waaaaay back in Vietnam demo times...aaaaah those were the days.... :ar15:), if you had UE and HLC, you got 80% of your fees paid and a basic living allowance, paid three times a year, which was about the equivalent of $130 a week. Combined with high paying holiday jobs like the Wool stores, freezing works, wharves, etc and the odd night time job, a student could survive moderately OK, and even have time to do some study, in between bikes and being hauled off intersections in Queen St from the continuous protests. Most of the politicians in power at the moment went through the same system and basically had their education paid for by the State - and how did they repay that - brought in student loans, soaring course fees and systems that encouraged bums on seats, at the expense of all else.

Ingrates!

Perhaps they are having a "twinge" of conscience.........but...I doubt it.

[trustme]

and how did they repay that - brought in student loans, soaring course fees and systems that encouraged bums on seats, at the expense of all else.

Ingrates!

Perhaps they are having a "twinge" of conscience.........but...I doubt it.

And they will make you grateful even if it does kill you. !!!

Labour wants to teach you what to think
I'd rather be taught how to think.

[SPman]

So, it's a BA in History and Philosophy for you then........

[MisterD]

So, it's a BA in History and Philosophy for you then........

Congratulations on your "qualification"

http://a330.g.akamai.net/7/330/2540/20080720205146/www.variety.com/graphics/photos/variety100/mickey_mouse.jpg

[idleidolidyll]

What degree did you get ???

BAC

Bachelor of Applied Communication

In case you're wondering, I'm a sales manager

[MisterD]

BAC

Bachelor of Applied Communication

In case you're wondering, I'm a sales manager

Applied Communication? Translation...using the telephone?

[trustme]

Applied suggests to me that the degree has some end use
Good for you,
Employed in that vile nasty commercial world , even better
Gooder for you.

[idleidolidyll]

Applied Communication? Translation...using the telephone?

No, deciphering drool posted by gibbering idiots

[MisterD]

No, deciphering drool posted by gibbering idiots

Excellent, just the man I was looking for. Could you explain the Green Party's economic policy for me? :done:

[idleidolidyll]

Applied suggests to me that the degree has some end use

Yes, the degree was definitely focused on reality and function rather than some esoteric degree useful only to teach back to other students.

some of the papers were psychology, eCommunication, media studies and the news (deciphering the mass media), negotiation advocacy and lobbying, PR, graphic design (for making communication materials), intercultural comms, communication in organisations, communication research, popular culture etc etc

almost all was underlined by essays and research based on communication projects undertaken in businesses around the city.

Good for you,
Employed in that vile nasty commercial world , even better
Gooder for you.

we live in that society and regardless of our political persuasions, we all have to fit into that society/culture in some way.

just because one may be a socialist by politics, one doesn't necessarily wear jesus creepers, unwashed baggy clothing and wear long hair or dreads.

[idleidolidyll]

Excellent, just the man I was looking for. Could you explain the Green Party's economic policy for me? :done:

I have no idea why they would even need such a policy. IMO they should concentrate on the environment and forget about much of their distracting policies on Kiwi life.

that said, deciphering National's policies is much harder: the problem being the lies and words left unspoken.

[trustme]

Insults trivialise the debate , leave the personal attacks & smear to the labour party

However , I will watch with interest how Sullen handles that millstone around his neck that is NZ rail.
Paid too much, needs major investment, running major deficits & does not like borrowing, he wants to fund govt investment out of govt surpluses but there are none. Does he
1/ Do nothing & let the thing degenerate
2/ Borrow & invest , thus increasing govt debt , then is he borrowing for rail
or tax cuts & debt is going to be the enemy over the next few years
3/ Cut govt spending in other areas to fund rail
4/ Increase tax by imposing an indrect rail tax or subsidy which imposes more
costs on a flagging econmy & ultimately claws back some of the tax that
he is so begrudgingly giving to us
5/ Does he lose the election & let someone else clean up the mess

Intersting times

[idleidolidyll]

Insults trivialise the debate , leave the personal attacks & smear to the labour party

oh puleeze! National is even worse

However , I will watch with interest how Sullen handles that millstone around his neck that is NZ rail.
Paid too much, needs major investment, running major deficits & does not like borrowing, he wants to fund govt investment out of govt surpluses but there are none. Does he
1/ Do nothing & let the thing degenerate
2/ Borrow & invest , thus increasing govt debt , then is he borrowing for rail
or tax cuts & debt is going to be the enemy over the next few years
3/ Cut govt spending in other areas to fund rail
4/ Increase tax by imposing an indrect rail tax or subsidy which imposes more
costs on a flagging econmy & ultimately claws back some of the tax that
he is so begrudgingly giving to us
5/ Does he lose the election & let someone else clean up the mess

Intersting times

strange that you don't ask where the promised tax cuts by National are coming from and why they give more money to the rich than Labour's and less to the poor....................................instead you question the known and seem to think that justifies electing liars and thieves from the past with hidden agendas

[trustme]

National told you where the tax cuts are coming from they are going to mess with the Sullen fund , something I have some mixed feelings about.
You want to tax the rich & redistribute to the poor, here is a liitle anecdote
Some time after Sullen introduced the 39% tax my accountant made the obsevation that his role within his business had changed overnight. He was no longer a business advisor helping people to grow their business, he was a tax advisor helping his clients to minimise their tax liability. The punters reached a tipping point 39% + 12.5% on evrything they spent was over 50 % tax , it was a phycological barrier, a point at which they said, 'this is not fair.'
That increased tax has not helped our economy, as wages & salaries have increased more & more people have ended up in the top tax bracket & then some of them qualify for the family supplement, why not just give a tax cut & reduce the number of fish heads at IRD. It is the middle & upper earners who are off to Oz in droves.

That last sentence is a piece of asolute unsubstantiated garbage , I would expect better from you , it was the labour govt who misappropriated the most money at the last election so don't bang on about thieves because you are on very shaky ground. Pots & kettles methinks

[trustme]

The thing that disapoints me about your last post was that you were unable to make a single valid point in reply , just smear & innuendo.

[Squiggles]

Squiggles, In principle I have no real issue with it , don't know how it would cost out & what happens to the people who do dumb courses that will not result in a job when completed, pretty hard to bond people if there is no job for them.

Good question, i have no answers to that one... :( Can't really think of many degrees a person couldnt use somehow...This thread has gone off-topic now though :Playnice:

[Indiana_Jones]

strange that you don't ask where the promised tax cuts by National are coming from and why they give more money to the rich than Labour's and less to the poor....................................instead you question the known and seem to think that justifies electing liars and thieves from the past with hidden agendas



<img src="http://new-fishingtips.com/New-fishing-lure.jpg">

-Indy

[trustme]

Can't really think of many degrees a person couldnt use somehow.. :Playnice:

Massey is going to start a course in witchcraft how is that going to result in a job.

There are many courses provided that are not necessarily degrees, provided by all manner of tertiary institutions, some of these courses are of limited use, it seems to me they are about bums on seats , all fueled by the student allowance money tree, education at any price but are we getting value & does extending the allowance really help or simply give more fuel to the monster
AK uni fees about to go up, why not give the money to the universities so the fees remain lower cut out the admin overheads & nightmares that go with the student allowance
I & my accountants are currently going through all sorts of crap to get my kids money to which they are entitled, they seem to make it as hard as possible so you don't bother, met the criteria then the goal post got moved.

[avgas]

I'm a sales manager
Burn him, burn the witch!!!!!!!!

[avgas]

However, Mr. Cullens clumsy "Cullen Fund" investments lose about $2-3 Million a day, so clearly chasing the high return is not always wise.
The funny thing is when this started i actually placed a $100 bet with my friend that kiwi saver is shit (minus the govt $1000 bonus).
Not only has he LOST -4% on his return, and i gain nearly 8% on mine (12% difference), but i can access mine whenever i want, and im now $100 up.
Kiwisaver is like a bad rash - the only relief you will get is scratching it every few moments to know it is still there. Put the money in the bank and be laughing 20 years from now. Rather than the sink hole money pit known as kiwisaver.

[avgas]

the problem being the lies and words left unspoken.

Very true - however where was Kiwisaver, buying back the rail etc on Labours card last election?
Apart from the interest free student loans, and more money for benefits, they failed to tick any of the promise boxes for last election.
- Where are the benefits to business?
- Where are the benefits to the money makers?
- Where are the new jobs?
- Where are the proposed massive tax cuts?
- Where is the new culture boost in NZ?
- Where is the decrease in Govt spending?
- Where is the decrease in crime?
- Where is the love?