Diesel spills?

[CookMySock]

Ok it seems to me that most diesel spills are from trucks with a faulty rubber seal under their fuel cap - a simple thing. Not that I have really have any idea - just surmising.

I'm going to start the ball rolling some industry organisations and see what they have to say. I'm not going to get shitty with them - I'm just going to ask.

Anyone have any other ideas?

Keep it constructive and no taggers please.


cheers,
Steve

[slimjim]

nope most tanks..have only a screw down cap....reason for spill is cap has unscrew its self from tank neck via it not been screwed tight enough..or viberation of tank and chassis....and spill is flowing as tank bafflers are across tank not long ways down the tank....or cap left off at fill station...some lose fuel via the injector pump...leaking..however mostly its lack of paying attention....

[Murray]

Most diesel spills in Hamilton come from Boy Racers. A few beauties on the Te Rapa Straight roundabouts last weeknd

[CookMySock]

I've organised a meeting with an area manager from a large transport organisation. She is gunna talk to a bunch of people, including the CVIU, and see what the issues are, and let me know.

Remove the tag please.

Steve

[Deano]

Good luck DB - may you have more success than I did when raising this issue at the Road Safe seminars a couple of years ago.

LTNZ didn't give a flying feck - the issue didn't even make it into the summary report from memory.

[wysper]

I'm not going to get shitty with them - I

Speaking of shitty - another good target would be cattle trucks.

[Usarka]

Speaking of shitty - another good target would be cattle trucks.

Hell yeah, recently had 3km of some cool twisties ruined cause of shit overflow all over the road. Slippery as...um....shit i guess....

[CookMySock]

Speaking of shitty - another good target would be cattle trucks.For sure. One thing at a time I think - I know these people a wee bit, and they are grass-roots people with families, just like you and I.

At the very worst, we could get an article in their national magazine showing the pain and expense we suffer from a moments carelessness on their part.

Its only one day yet. Lets collect some information and see what happens.

Steve

[raftn]

Its worth a try.

[Quailboy]

Good stuff DB.

Had couple of scary moments while trying to learn how to ride on the road. Drifting on a bike is scary when done unintentionally and when your a noob.

Keep us posted.

[Grub]

Someone said to me that when full and thrown around a corner, the tanks overflow is the culprit.

That got me to thinking about CoF for trucks having a requirement to have an overflow of xxmm vertical above the tank's high water mark.

Seems prett fundamental ... i have a mate in CVIU too so will ask him too.

Good post DB what got into you?

[cooneyr]

I like the sound of the attitude as to how you are going to approach this. Take it slow, keep it un-emotive and collect the facts, then lay into it when you are fully informed and have a case.

Couple of bits of info. The RTA (http://www.nzrta.co.nz/) (Road Transport Association) represents a lot of the transport firms and they would worth talking to. Be aware though they don't represent Transrail trucking (last I heard) which is supposedly one of the biggest road transport firms . Also might be worth talking to the New Zealand Transport Agency (the old LTNZ part of it) as generally where there is a loss of control crash if there is something like a diesel spill, bleed bitumen that would contribute this would be recorded.

Cheers R

[James Deuce]

Effluent overflow is thoroughly, totally illegal, and much easier to police as you have specific laws governing effluen tanks, emptying sites, and fines for leaving a shit trail.

No one cares about spilt fuel.But good luck with the crusade. You'd have to start by proving that the amount of damage caused to people, property, and the environment by diesel snail trails costs more to the economy than the money generated by the product moved by truck before anyone will listen.

Tried this on on with BRONZ many years ago and the truckies federation president (real bastard, can't remember his name - this was from before the accident with the truck - O dear) threatened to start running "bikies" over.

[Motu]

Has anyone ever caught a truck spilling diesel and seen where it came from - or are you all just guessing and pointing the finger.Could someone walk around a truck park,container terminal or such like and check all the filler caps...see how they are fitted,evidence of leakage etc?

For a WoF the filler cap is checked for security and all push in temporary type caps are banned - this has been in for some time,and I expect is the same for CoF.

[James Deuce]

I blame Pajeros.

[warewolf]

Pretty sure the Poms fought a big battle over this recently. Try researching how they went about it and how they got on. MAG? (motorcycle action group) and also ACEM (http://www.acem.eu/), the new body representing the motorcycle industry in Europe. They cover lots of safety issues.


check all the filler caps...see how they are fitted,evidence of leakage etc?

For a WoF the filler cap is checked for security and all push in temporary type caps are banned - this has been in for some time,and I expect is the same for CoF.I rented a small truck in recent years. The filler cap wasn't even close to sealing, was never designed as such. Looked like a chimney vent designed to stop rain entering. The previous renter had filled the tank up to the brim of the filler neck above the tank. Raw diesel was slopping everywhere. Even when I had finished with it - only drove it 35km or something - it was still slopping diesel out the filler neck when I pulled into the rental place.

I pointed this out to the rental chap, that as it was still over-full and was a hazard so I hadn't topped up the tank at all. He thought I was trying to get out of filling the tank. So he unscrewed the cap and to check the level plunged his hand into the filler... and got diesel all up his arm and over his shirt... to my immense satisfaction.

So from that experience - huge sample of one, I know - I conclude that diesel tanks aren't even designed to avoid slop at a very basic level.

[CookMySock]

are you all just guessing and pointing the finger.Really trying to avoid the blame game. Maybe we can discover what the real problem is and come to a amicable solution. In the end, if we have to hang someone then so be it, but we are nowhere near that.


Could someone walk around a truck park,container terminal or such like and check all the filler caps...see how they are fitted,evidence of leakage etc? For a WoF the filler cap is checked for security and all push in temporary type caps are banned - this has been in for some time,and I expect is the same for CoF.All this is being examined as we speak. What we don't want to happen, is some vigilante work in parallel and make US look like, um, vigilantes. One step at a time.


I blame Pajeros.Pajeros do this? Can you offer more insight here? Cheers.


Pretty sure the Poms fought a big battle over this recently. Try researching how they went about it and how they got on. MAG? (motorcycle action group) and also ACEM (http://www.acem.eu/), the new body representing the motorcycle industry in Europe. They cover lots of safety issues.Thanks for that. Can I have a volunteer to distill this please? edit: http://www.acem.eu/cartoon/ Doesn't look like much in this, unless anyone else has more.


I rented a small truck in recent years. The filler cap wasn't even close to sealing [....] Raw diesel was slopping everywhere. Even when I had finished with it - only drove it 35km or something - it was still slopping diesel out the filler neck when I pulled into the rental place.
Brave of you to admit that on a biker site. :shifty: All in the name of research though!


cheers,
Steve

[cooneyr]

Another thought. See if you can get along side anyone who was involved in the industry driven voluntarily adopted (initially though became mandatory after an period of time) effluent tanks on trucks. Others have been through the process of identifying, investigating and addressing an issue in the road transport industry and this may prove to be of some help.

I was involved for a short period of time back in 2002 in the Transit managed project to install and manage effluent dump stations around the upper part of the south island.

Cheers R

[CookMySock]

See if you can get along side anyone who was involved in the industry driven voluntarily adopted effluent tanks on trucks.Yeah thats what I am hoping to pick up next week.

I'll have this meeting and see what I get offered. I'm expecting good things.

Steve

[Motu]

I rented a small truck in recent years. The filler cap wasn't even close to sealing, was never designed as such. Looked like a chimney vent designed to stop rain entering. The previous renter had filled the tank up to the brim of the filler neck above the tank. Raw diesel was slopping everywhere. Even when I had finished with it - only drove it 35km or something - it was still slopping diesel out the filler neck when I pulled into the rental place.

So from that experience - huge sample of one, I know - I conclude that diesel tanks aren't even designed to avoid slop at a very basic level.

People often perceive the CoF test as being much stricter than the mere WoF test,but this is not really the case,they are looking at different things on different vehicles.From my experience with trucks,the filler caps were either bigger versions of a car cap,or something more elaborate....which you would think must be more secure.I suspect most filler problems come from after market bodies (buses,freezer bodies etc) where the filler neck has to be modified.

[kiwi cowboy]

good luck with it

[maybe]

One of the reasons for the leaks is poor servicing, some of the leaks are from the seals around the fuel filters as if left to long can break down, have also seen a filter with a crack in it leaking fuel this was due to a lack of servicing.

[FJRider]

Photos of it happening... or it didnt happen. At best... an individual vehicle/companys may get prosecuted. Law changes may take a while... Look at the battle re. WRB's...

[CookMySock]

Photos of it happening... or it didnt happen. At best... an individual vehicle/companys may get prosecuted. Law changes may take a while... Look at the battle re. WRB's...If I start talking like that to industry organisations, they will pull their head inside their shell and go silent on me. Softly softly first.

Steve

[BMWST?]

I was nearly taken out once by a Runciman Motors bus on the Rimutakas which seemed to be going very fast in the opposite direction.I later fell on some deisel spilt by that bus.Several other riders fell that day,and there were reports of several people seeing deisel spewing from the filler on LH corners.But no one actually saw someone fall on the deisel that was definetly from that bus....hence no one could actually pursue that avenue.

[Tank]

Ok it seems to me that most diesel spills are from trucks with a faulty rubber seal under their fuel cap - a simple thing. Not that I have really have any idea - just surmising.

I'm going to start the ball rolling some industry organisations and see what they have to say. I'm not going to get shitty with them - I'm just going to ask.



The causes of diesel spills have been mentioned previously (search is your friend) - and faulty seals wasnt seen as the primary cause.

You may want to bone up on the causes etc before putting it to people to fix - you may fix a non existent problem.

Further - to be successful - the changes need to be mandatory not optional - so trying to get the g'ment on your side would be a smarter way to approach the issue IMHO.

[Tank]

Softly softly first.

Steve

And then go all International on their asses !!!!!

[CookMySock]

The causes of diesel spills have been mentioned previously (search is your friend) - and faulty seals wasnt seen as the primary cause.Yes I already have that information. What I am trying to do is get information from industry groups, as to what they percieve the problem to be.


Further - to be successful - the changes need to be mandatory not optional - so trying to get the g'ment on your side would be a smarter way to approach the issue IMHO.Thanks for that. I'mm not going to put a rope around anyones neck. Like I said, they will volunteer nothing after I attempt that. All I need is someone pull a stunt like that, and that will close all my doors.

I'm hoping for them to offer up what the problems are, and see if I can just ask them what timetable they have for addressing those issues - maybe the problem will go away by itself soon.

We might also get an article in an industry-leading periodical. This on its own will do a lot for us. Is there someone capable of putting together such an article? (Hi Jan!)

A lot can be achieved without pointing a gun at someones head, and a lot of damage can be done by doing so.

Steve

[Tank]

Thanks for that. I'mm not going to put a rope around anyones neck. Like I said, they will volunteer nothing after I attempt that. All I need is someone pull a stunt like that, and that will close all my doors.

I'm hoping for them to offer up what the problems are, and see if I can just ask them what timetable they have for addressing those issues - maybe the problem will go away by itself soon.



Money is too tight for most of the trucking forms as it is - unless there is a directive they wont do anything - there is nothing in it for them other than the cost of testing, compliance, retesting etc.

I applaud the idea - but I think you are aiming in the wrong areas.

[martybabe]

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/searchresults/?N=0&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Ntk=site&Ntt=diesel%20spills


Have a dig around in here DB, it's been a huge issue in the UK for many years and the cause of many single vehicle accidents and deaths.

Good luck with it.

[pritch]

Has anyone ever caught a truck spilling diesel and seen where it came from - or are you all just guessing and pointing the finger.Could someone walk around a truck park,container terminal or such like and check all the filler caps...see how they are fitted,evidence of leakage etc?

For a WoF the filler cap is checked for security and all push in temporary type caps are banned - this has been in for some time,and I expect is the same for CoF.

Is there an overflow pipe or similar fitted to the tanks on trucks? It is really common to have diesel spills at the first roundabout or corner after a gas station. The second corner I take on the way to work is one such and spills are common. It's as if they fill the tank and then the first corner causes big slops.

[Honda93]

Steve

Someone who may be able to assist you with info is Hutt City Council Trade Wastes Manager Gordon George ph 04 570 6666. See the following article for background on HCC's attempts to fix the diesel spill problem:
http://www.huttcity.govt.nz/publications-forms/Newsletters/Council-Views/Council-Views-July-07/

I've recently talked to him to report seeing a spill. They are still working on the problem - specifically with the buses. It sounds like it's a battle for them - they're still gathering as much proof as possible - to try to convince the bus company to make changes.

Best wishes with the crusade!

[cooneyr]

......Further - to be successful - the changes need to be mandatory not optional - so trying to get the g'ment on your side would be a smarter way to approach the issue IMHO.

I agree that long term a change would need to be mandatory but like many industries the road transport industry (well many major firms in it anyway) seems to be keen to carry out "best practice". Case in point the effluent tanks on stock trucks. From memory I believe that the agreement reached was that the tanks would become mandatory after 80% of the stock trucks already had them installed and there were disposal sites available. There was a time limit on this as well to ensure that the firms and govt (transit managed the project) didn't drag the chain over installing the tanks and the disposal sites.

Find out what the problem really is, find out what measures can be carried out to fix it and how practical the measures are using the softly softly approach. Then talk to the major players in the industry (major firms and RTF, RTA) about voluntary adoption of said measures with the measures becoming mandatory at a later date/level of adoption.

I really think some crash data would be a good idea as well. That way you not only know the extent of the problem but also how much of an impact it is having. If every serious injury crash is valued by the Govt at $360000 (this is not quite the right figure but it is close enough) in a 50kph area and there are 80 of them a year due to slips on diesel spills this is about $28,800,000/year. Say that the measures proposed will eliminate 50% of all spills and there is 0.5 serious injury crash per spill then there would be a crash saving of 1/2 x 1/2 x 28,800,000/year = $7,200,000 per year. This is a big reduction.

If your really keen approach an civil eng student about doing some research into this or you could have a go yourself. I'm over studying for the moment.

Cheers R

[CookMySock]

I agree that long term a change would need to be mandatory but like many industries the road transport industry (well many major firms in it anyway) seems to be keen to carry out "best practice". Agree completely.


Find out what the problem really is, find out what measures can be carried out to fix it and how practical the measures are using the softly softly approach. Then talk to the major players in the industry (major firms and RTF, RTA) about voluntary adoption of said measures with the measures becoming mandatory at a later date/level of adoption.

I really think some crash data would be a good idea as well. That way you not only know the extent of the problem but also how much of an impact it is having. If every serious injury crash is valued by the Govt at $360000 (this is not quite the right figure but it is close enough) in a 50kph area and there are 80 of them a year due to slips on diesel spills this is about $28,800,000/year. Say that the measures proposed will eliminate 50% of all spills and there is 0.5 serious injury crash per spill then there would be a crash saving of 1/2 x 1/2 x 28,800,000/year = $7,200,000 per year. This is a big reduction.

If your really keen approach an civil eng student about doing some research into this or you could have a go yourself. I'm over studying for the moment.Hehe, thats for all that. Welcome to the team. ;) Enjoy your break.


Is there an overflow pipe or similar fitted to the tanks on trucks?Yeah this is the sort of thing I want to discover.


http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/searchresults/?N=0&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Ntk=site&Ntt=diesel%20spills
.Thank you bro. I'll dig through it.


Money is too tight for most of the trucking forms as it is - unless there is a directive they wont do anything - there is nothing in it for them other than the cost of testing, compliance, retesting etc. I applaud the idea - but I think you are aiming in the wrong areas.In your opinion, that is. Best you stay out of it until I need your skills, as you are a little overqualified just yet.

Steve

[Tank]

I may be overqualified - but like any professional Id laugh you out of my office.

Why?

Simple - You have said you have arranged a meeting with a snr person from a Transport Organisation.

You are going to rock up - with no information (you admit you done even know what causes the spills) and no data to back up your 'accusations'.

If you are dealing with professional people - you need to be prepared. Do the homework then arrange the meetings - not the other way around.

That way they will take your concerns more seriously than some guy who says umm - "most diesel spills are from trucks with a faulty rubber seal under their fuel caps".

Again - I applaud the idea - but in order for it to have a chance to suceed - you need to present a well researched and accurate argument - and you seem underqualified to do so

[CookMySock]

Again - I applaud the idea - but in order for it to have a chance to suceed - you need to present a well researched and accurate argument - and you seem underqualified to do soCool. Can you please go applaud the idea elsewhere please. Your ranting isn't helping. Perhaps you might find some topic that YOU feel strongly about, and go and start a thread about it and fix that, then I'll be applauding you. :niceone:

[Tank]

Cool. Can you please go applaud the idea elsewhere please. Your ranting isn't helping. Perhaps you might find some topic that YOU feel strongly about, and go and start a thread about it and fix that, then I'll be applauding you. :niceone:

Its not ranting - Im simply offering my opinion that by approaching the issue better informed you will have a far greater chance of success.

And I believe that if you do listen, and do your homework before heading into this meeting you have arranged - then I will have helped.

[The Stranger]

Has anyone ever caught a truck spilling diesel and seen where it came from - or are you all just guessing and pointing the finger.Could someone walk around a truck park,container terminal or such like and check all the filler caps...see how they are fitted,evidence of leakage etc?

For a WoF the filler cap is checked for security and all push in temporary type caps are banned - this has been in for some time,and I expect is the same for CoF.

3 of us got covered in diesel from a Beaurepaires truck just north of Orewa.
It was coming from a missing filler cap.

Would appear logical to assume filler cap when diesel is consistenly found on a series of corners, but not straights as was seen recently on a coro loop and on the way to Kaiua several months ago.

My SS had a flapper valve fitted to the fuel filler neck as standard equipment.
Would a similar device be able to be retrofitted to existing and made a requirement on new trucks?
Surely with the truckies moaning about diesel costs they would be all for it.

[Motu]

Is there an overflow pipe or similar fitted to the tanks on trucks?

More like a car with vents back into the filler neck,not an open pipe if that's what you were thinking.The problems being short filler necks (and as I've mentioned) modified filler necks on buses,and as noted below one of the main offenders.Systems on petrol powered vehicles are more complicated because they have to comply with emission standards - tank fillers are a big source of HC emissions,but diesel doesn't cause as many HC problems there.Do drivers leave the caps loose? Possible....but I check filler caps on cars a dozen times a day,and haven't found a loose one yet.Some of those cars belong to truck and bus drivers....so they don't forget to tighten the caps on their cars at least.

[Pedrostt500]

I had to go and pick up a customers Scooter after an accident on a Diesle spill from a Stage Coach bus, remarkable the Police were the first on the scene, they tracked down the bus, the out come was the Bus Company had to pay for a clean up bill from Fulto hogan and the Fire dept, and also pay for repairs to the customers Scooter, wich was a write off.
as I understand the owner / driver of a vechicle that is caught spilling fuel or oil onto the road can be prosecuted, also charged with the clean up, and via your Insurance Company charged the costs of your repairs / replacement of your vechicle, should there be a death caused from the spill then a manslughter charge may be laid as well. The big BUT is you need to prove that a certain vechicle has caused the spill, first call would be *555, on seeing a vechicle spilling fuel, yep you need to get the vechicles REG No.
Most Truckies that I know who are Owner Operators are not into spilling fuel onto the road as this quickly eats into their profit margins that are quiet megar at the best of times.
Ok so I suggest that we all report vechicles that spill fuel to *555, get the REG No, name the type of vechicle ie car, truck, bus etc, also if possible get the details of any company name on the vechicle if possible, the second phone call you could make is to the company of the vechicle if you can get the details, most depot managers are not Arsholes, if treated with a bit of respect, Alot of bigger transport companies have an 0800 No that you can phone, use it if you can.
Dont think that you are being a grass for using *555 as the next spill that goes unreported may be the accident with your name on it, and the more reports of fuel spills they get, the more they see it as a problem to be looked at, and if you embelish the size of the spill abit then it will get action, but dont blow it out of proprtion.

[Honda93]

I'm not sure about the effectivness of the *555 system. I used it a couple of weeks ago to report a spill - but the spill didn't get cleaned up.

I talked with the city council - they advised me that it is the council that are responsible for the clean up on city streets (and Transit on state highways) - so it seems best to report it straight to council (which is what *555 will maybe do - but not on this instance).

[CookMySock]

The *555 call will get it entered into the police database, and thats about all.

Steve

[Tony]

For a WoF the filler cap is checked for security and all push in temporary type caps are banned - this has been in for some time,and I expect is the same for CoF.

I get a COF on my Isuzu truck every 6 months and I have never every had them look at or check my fuel cap. (The cap is behind a locked flap so they would need to ask which key to use to open the flap if they wanted to check the cap). The cap has a rubber seal just like the cap on my diesel van (quite possibly incorporating a 1 way valve to allow air in). PerhapsI also have an overflow outlet somewhere as well.

I suspect most spills are from overfilling the tanks and then having excess fuel slosh out the overflow or faulty cap.

At many fuel stations there are special bays for filling trucks. Most truck fuel bays have two speed high flow fuel pumps (trucky selects speed with switch on side of pump). The nozzles on these pumps also incorporate an automatic sensor in the to stop pumping when they detect the tank is full - just like the regular car ones.

Note these are high speed pumps (need to be for larger truck tanks - otherwise you would sit there all day). Even on the lower speed setting by the time the nozzle sensor has noted the tank is full and shut off the pump you have diesel pissing out the top of the tank and down the side of my shiny truck and over me if I stand to close....I have learnt to stand well back. The Mobile ones seem the worst at doing this. I can't use the car pumps as they often have low roofs (and other overhed obstacles) over them that I would catch the top of the truck on. Not sure how much (if any) of what is spilt on the forecourt in this manner makes it's way on to the road.

And at the price of diesel I probably waste 50c to a dollar of diesel in this manner everytime I fill my truck. Doesn't sound much but most truckies fill their trucks several/many times a week. Possibly a bit more fuel and dollars sloshes out of the overflow (if it's not well designed) every time I go around corners after just filling up.

[CookMySock]

Ok I had a half-hour chat with this transport industry person. We share a lot of common-ground with truckers, and many of them are also bikers, so they do understand our position.

Basically, she has said that no transport operator in their right mind would be pissing diesel all over the road, and I agree with her. The offenders are one-off rogues who don't care for anyones safety, and these people are unlikely to be part of any organised group who care about their public image.

We have an opportunity to have an article published in many magazines and newsletters, so if someone would like to put something together I am told it would be widely received. This is not one of my strengths, so can someone else write something up?

She also said I might be able to apply a little pressure to COF issuers, by either petitioning them or just paying a wee visit and asking questions.

Steve

[Tank]

Basically, she has said that no transport operator in their right mind would be pissing diesel all over the road, and I agree with her. The offenders are one-off rogues who don't care for anyones safety, and these people are unlikely to be part of any organised group who care about their public image.


How can you say that when you don't actually understand the cause of the spills?

The general cause of spillages has nothing to do with the operators, but more to do with the design.

FFS - the most diesel spilt around here is from the new busses - hardly what you would call rouge operators.

Sounds like you got the "its not us - its other people" fob-off DB.

[CookMySock]

Please bring the specifics, Tank. What design problem? Which new buses exactly?

DB

[Tank]

The design issue is (quoting from an other thread):


It happens because often the filler cap is not much above the level of fuel when the tank is full, and the filler pipe is at a very shallow angle. This is a design issue rather than a failing of a diesel system per se. If the pipe was close to vertical and the cap at least a foot above the tank, spills would be rare.

That has nothing to do with rouge operators etc - Thats why I said understand the issue before you go trying to fix it.

What busses?? - in my case the new Maxx busses for the northern busway.

I pass a roundabout right by the Albany station where the bus goes right around a very tight turn - there is often spillage there.

[Ocean1]

Pet hate of mine.

Don't have much to offer, just that I've seen plenty of trucks/busses with obviously inadequate filler caps.

Also, *555 works sometimes, I've had a call from te feds advising that they'd pinged a truck I'd advise was pissing diesel on every RH turn for bloody miles.

The design thing. All "car" filler systems are required to meet specific standards, (which vary omly slightly from country to country), the chief element of which is an airtight cap seal, including pressure/vacuum break valves. This type of system is notably absent on most "trucks". It is, however found on any diesel "car", and I'm not aware of too many problems there.

Diesel is inherently more of a traction problem anyway, it lurks longer and is a better lubricant than petrol. It seems likely that there's more than one part to the overall safety problem. Be a big ask to both define, implement and enforce a "car" system for "trucks", and the fact that big diesels feed quite a bit of fuel from the injector pump back to the tank may be an issue... Also, how do you test such a system during a COF?

Like Tank said, plenty of READY and AIM needed before the FIRE. Don't believe cost is an acceptable excuse either, the costs of any mitigating regulation would be evenly spread over competing commercial entities, and as someone said the (undefined) cost of accidents is likely to well offset any such changes.

[CookMySock]

What busses?? - in my case the new Maxx busses for the northern busway. I pass a roundabout right by the Albany station where the bus goes right around a very tight turn - there is often spillage there.Can I leave you to do the legwork on that one? Albany is 4.5 hours from here.

Steve