Help me choose a heat pump

[Scaredy Cat]

Hi,

We are currently renovating our lounge/kitchen at the moment and we are looking at getting a heat pump.

This is where I need some help, could those of you who have a heat pump/know about heat pumps give me your opinions of the ones you own/have worked with. This would include the pain of installation, price, reliability, noise both inside and outside, warranty problems, temperatures they work till etc.

The problem I have is that everytime I see a professional about it they claim that their one is the best. After some searching I found that Fujitsu have recently brought out a new version that works down to -15 degrees which is good for Dunedin winters:)

Anyway any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Hitcher]

The most important thing to note about heat pumps is their location in the room. They blow air around and create a draft. If you don't like sitting down or sleeping in a breeze, then you could be in for some problems.

Otherwise heat pumps are magnificent and I am unsure why they haven't caught on more in New Zealand. Any form of heating/cooling that is 150-500% efficient has got to be good value.

[Deano]

Hi,

noise both inside and outside, .

Ive never measured internal noise but it would need to be insulated from the dwelling to prevent structure borne sound.

Be careful where you site it - Ive monitored three different brands of heat pump (Fujitsu included) that were located within 2 metres of the property boundary, and they did not comply with District Plan or NZ Standard recommended noise levels. (You can check your city's District Plan at the Council)

The noise output specified on the pump ranged between 40 and 60dBA from memory.

Depending on the background noise levels, you may be required to achieve as low as 35dBA at the boundary, possibly even lower.

Locate the pump as far away from your neighbours as possible. The ones I have monitored have all had to carry out some form of shielding, or relocate the pump.

[sels1]

Hi,
The problem I have is that everytime I see a professional about it they claim that their one is the best. .

Like many things these days they all come out of the same factory ( well 3 or 4 factories) with just cosmetic differences. Any of the major brands will do the job. There are some brands coming out of China that are cheaper...but you get what you pay for. (although some of the main brands are manufactured there now.)


After some searching I found that Fujitsu have recently brought out a new version that works down to -15 degrees which is good for Dunedin winters:).

Good feature - heat pumps were originally just adapted (with reversing valve fitted) air conditioners that were designed for warm climates and they struggled to produce much heat when the ambient temp dropped below around 5deg( some even had electic booster heaters) however modern units have overcome this to a large extent with improved coil and compressor design.
Fujitsu are a good recognised brand and if they are rating that model in that temp range then it could be your best option, considering Dn's climate. I recommend buying from a refrigeration/air cond company that can service what they sell, as opposed to appliance stores or power companies that just contract their installations out (sometimes to cowboys!)

[Scaredy Cat]

Thanks for all your help so far.

I contacted the DCC regarding noise and they said it would have to be 30 dBA or less at the boundary line to take into account the heat pump going at night. Now the heat pump pamphlet reckons that the noise level at the outside unit is 47 dBA at 1 m away. Luckily the heat pump would be right in the middle of both our neighbours about 4 - 5 m away from both boundary lines and would be facing the road which is very wide so the neighbours way across the street wouldn't be able to hear it (it doesn't matter anyway cause those neighbours have a lawnmowing fettish, they mow the lawns every 2 - 3 days and drives us nuts). The DCC said they could check the noise levels for us once the pump is in but if its not up to standard they could tell us to shield it or remove it which would be a waste of money putting it in the first place.

The internal noise is rated at 43 dBA at 1 m which is alot louder than mitsubishi which say 21 dBA for their units. But with the TV/stereo going hopefully it will drown the sound out.

Regarding a breeze in the room with the heat pump going, it doesn't really bother me as longs as its warm air. We are hopefully planning on going with a air conditioning company, my uncle is a plumber and has some friends so I will chat to him about it. I don't really want to buy it from applicance shops, we went into one and the salesperson said "what's a heat pump"?

[Spin]

Hey Scaredy Cat

We used to live in Dunners and had three separate heatpumps - two of them were actually inverters (more efficient)

The first one we had was a Fujitsu - worked fine but had more down time that the Daikens that we had subsequently - the two Daikens we had were great - and the installers were the best

We had the big ones - cost about $4500 - 7.7kw I think - you need the big ones for Dunners -..

Noise of things were no problem - either outside or inside - the old ones used to be noisy

We had the floor mounted ones - seemed to make the most sense to us - heat rising and all - but if you have kids they could be a problem with little fingers breaking bits off etc

Where you install it is crucial - as is the layout of the house - trust in your comon sense

Good luck - we think they are the only way to heat a house - clean, healthy, cheap to run, and amazingly convenient

[Deano]

I contacted the DCC regarding noise and they said it would have to be 30 dBA or less at the boundary line to take into account the heat pump going at night. Now the heat pump pamphlet reckons that the noise level at the outside unit is 47 dBA at 1 m away. Luckily the heat pump would be right in the middle of both our neighbours about 4 - 5 m away from both boundary lines

47dBA @ 1m will equate approximately to 37dBA at 4m and 32dBA @ 8m, so be wary about meeting the 30dBA limit.

Insist from the pump installer/seller, that the operation of the pump will meet all relevant rules and regulations, particularly noise. Then if someone complains and remedial work is required, you can put the onus back on the pump company. This happened with a job I was working on and the company paid to have a shield installed - basically a 12mm plywood tunnel (to allow airflow) lined with carpet underlay.

In another example, a different company were reluctant to use a similar tunnel as they said it would decrease the efficiency of the pump, and so they lined the boundary fence with Hardies board instead. This closed up all the gaps in the fence but I don't think it has yet acheived a "reasonable" noise level. This job still ongoing.

[pete376403]

Heat pumps are something I've been thinking about as well. Anyone have any opinions on the units offered by this outfit?
http://www.trade-me.co.nz/House-garden/Heating-cooling/Air-conditioners/auction-21937405.htm

[geoffm]

I can't help you with installers in the Deep South (there are a few in Auckland I wouldn't touch...) but get a proper air conditioning co to install it, otherwise the compressor warrenty is void. You should purge the lines with nitrogen before brazing to stop lumpy bits being sucked into the compressor from the oxidised copper pipe.
There are limitations on line size, length and vertical rise of the connecting pipes between the indoor and out door units. RTFM. You will also need provision for a condensate drain from the indoor unit, so consider where this is going to run.
Get the company to do a heat load calc on the house to make sure you get the right size for your house. If they won't do it/ give you a blank look, go elsewhere.
Geoff

[Kickaha]

I have a Panasonic CS-G123KE 3.45kw cooling/4.80kw heating ,when I first got it I found the noise fron the inside unit intrusive but after a few days I didn't even notice it any more,air flow direction can be directed by the unit using the remote control

As for the outside unit I suppose it makes some but I haven't ever heard it

In winter in Rangiora the ouside unit wll shut down to defrost if it gets to cold and this sometimes takes 10-15 minutes and the room temperature will drop noticably in that time,I've been told the Daikin are better in that respect

It makes a difference of about $30 a month to the power bill through winter with it being used for about 5 hours a day,the only thing I dont like about it is that you can only set it to turn on and off once per day instead of turning on before you get up and off when you leave for work and coming on before you get home again

[gav]

We installed a Mitsubishi MSH-18RV and have found it to be bloody marvelous. Real good in summer as a cooling aid too.
Best thing is maybe ask for a free quote, and they can measure size of room and recommend what size unit is suitable for your living area. Once you know what you need you can then shop around for what is going to do the job.

[Scaredy Cat]

47dBA @ 1m will equate approximately to 37dBA at 4m and 32dBA @ 8m, so be wary about meeting the 30dBA limit.

Insist from the pump installer/seller, that the operation of the pump will meet all relevant rules and regulations, particularly noise. Then if someone complains and remedial work is required, you can put the onus back on the pump company. This happened with a job I was working on and the company paid to have a shield installed - basically a 12mm plywood tunnel (to allow airflow) lined with carpet underlay.

In another example, a different company were reluctant to use a similar tunnel as they said it would decrease the efficiency of the pump, and so they lined the boundary fence with Hardies board instead. This closed up all the gaps in the fence but I don't think it has yet acheived a "reasonable" noise level. This job still ongoing.

Thanks for that, more to think about I guess. Here is another question, if the fan etc of the heat pump are not pointing at either boundary but parallel to them would that make a difference in terms of noise?

[Deano]

Thanks for that, more to think about I guess. Here is another question, if the fan etc of the heat pump are not pointing at either boundary but parallel to them would that make a difference in terms of noise?

I vaguely recall checking that out and from memory it was a very small difference - perhaps 1 or 2 dBA but I can't be sure sorry.

[Skunk]

I was told to bypass heat pumps and go for a HRV system. Anyone got comments (the Poms maybe... I was told they are popular over there :bleh: )

[pete376403]

I was considering putting the outside unit up on the roof (odd shape house, where I want the interior unit is close to the centre of the house). The guy advertising the units on trade-me (earlier post) said this is do-able. Would also get the fan further from the boundary.

[sels1]

I was told to bypass heat pumps and go for a HRV system. Anyone got comments (the Poms maybe... I was told they are popular over there :bleh: )

Heat pumps use a mechanical refrigeration process to deliver low cost heating in winter and cooling in summer as well as air filtration and circulation. The amount of circulation depends on type of system - ducted or freestanding split-system.

HRV will not give you all these features - you get what you pay for. But it is really up to what you want and what your application is. (And how much you want to spend)

And perhaps the poms dont require any real cooling in their summers :)

[Skunk]

HRV will not give you all these features - you get what you pay for. But it is really up to what you want and what your application is. (And how much you want to spend)Umm, yeah I know the mechanical differences, it's the real world differences I want to know.
Cheers for the reply (I should be clearer - but I know what I mean) :lol:

[thermodix]

I think if you doesn't care with the mechanical things then just with the prices.... take a look at here guys.... http://www.heat-pump-reviews.com/heat-pump-prices.html some heap pump reviews guys... jope this help you a little guys....



_________________
Programmable Thermostats (http://www.prothermostats.com/)

[98tls]

Have a Panasonic 6.5 best thing ive ever done,most important to get the right size,to small just causes endless problems.

[JacksColdSweat]

I was told to bypass heat pumps and go for a HRV system. Anyone got comments (the Poms maybe... I was told they are popular over there :bleh: )

I have an answer to this below...

We have a Mitsi 6.5KW in our 90sqm and it warms the entire house because we placed it right

We set it to 20 degrees in winter and it warms the lounge to 20 and the bedrooms to 19.

Our house has Pink Batts 3.2s in the ceiling and nothing in the walls. Nothing under the floor

More important than noise is the lowest operating temperature and where you place the outside units. If you place it on the Southern side of the house it will be colder than the outside temperature and your unit will turn off regularly to defrost itself - especially in the morning

Our unit works down to -15C but a LOT of them don't - some don't work below +10C - so your heat pump will spend a lot of time on the coldest days defrosting itself - and when it's defrosting it can't heat

Check the lowest operating temperature.

The noise is about as loud as a fan on medium setting when the heat pump is pumping full speed - doesn't bother us at all

HRVs and the like only work:
1) If you have a north facing house
2) You have a BIG roof cavity with suitable materials on the roof for containing heat within
3) you are prone to damp and mildew

I don't recommend them - they are not even close to the league a heat pump is in

We got the 6.5Kw from Hometech www.hometech.co.nz - I totally recommend them - they were excellent and did a nice install - very discreet and properly weather proofed since they have to drill thru your wall

it cost $3300 for a 6.5KW Mitsi - we're delighted - best money ever spent

Our house was 4 degrees inside the day it was installed - 1.5 hours later it was 16 degrees everywhere - when we added the pink batts a year later we can now keep it at an even 19 and the air is dry

Heat Pumps are the ducks nuts!

[yungatart]

We have a Daikin. It is brilliant. Quick clean and quiet, both inside and out. We never hear it.
Get advice from a specialist as to the best size and location for your needs.

[Dooly]

We have a Daiken unit. Can't recall the size but we went to a bigger unit than was needed. More is better!!!

Its great as I programme it to come on about 2pm in Winter so the house is warm when we walk in after work.

I use the fire in the weekend when home but the heat pump is good for quick heat.

[JacksColdSweat]

They (Heat Pumps) are not cheap to run

The marketing bollocks of "$4 heating for $1 power" is marketing hype which is intended to mislead you

The cost of our power went up 4 times in one year so it's hard for me to know exactly what it cost (I don't count units) but I would estimate we spend around $65 more per month in winter to warm the house

We were spending around $30 on gas heating which only warmed a section of the lounge - so I really don't care about the extra expenditure since the house is now dry and warm

I really don't care about the extra cost - I just can't believe how well these things work and I'm delighted with the result - I never knew a NZ house could be so warm...

[Tank]

We put one in last week.

Its a Dakin.

The level of professionalism between Dakin and Fujitsi / Mitsi was worlds apart.

Couldn't recommend them strongly enough.

Very quite, 6kw unit in lounge, $4.5k (harder then norm install)

[Finn]

I was told to bypass heat pumps and go for a HRV system. Anyone got comments (the Poms maybe... I was told they are popular over there :bleh: )

HRV systems take advantage of poorly built NZ homes by exchanging air between paper thin walls and shanty town roofs. Sure, it can change the temperature by a degree or two and the same time circulate moisture and mold, but in short, nothing will beat a heat pump.

[Max Preload]

HRVs and the like only work:
1) If you have a north facing house
2) You have a BIG roof cavity with suitable materials on the roof for containing heat within
3) you are prone to damp and mildew

I don't recommend them - they are not even close to the league a heat pump is in.

Except maybe in capital cost... :msn-wink:


The marketing bollocks of "$4 heating for $1 power" is marketing hype which is intended to mislead you.

When is marketing ever anything but? "15-50% off everything in store!" ring a bell? How about "Up to 50% cheaper than other brands!"?

But you're correct. The advertised CoP of a heat pump is difficult to achieve in anything but ideal conditions. One of the key conditions for ideal operation are a lowest temperature differential between inside and outside.

That said, they're never going to be anywhere near as bad as an electric heater which works in the high 90% range of efficiency. You mentioned you're now maintaining a steady temperature in your home - to do that with other methods of heating would cost you a hell of a lot more.

[Winston001]

HRV systems take advantage of poorly built NZ homes by exchanging air between paper thin walls and shanty town roofs. Sure, it can change the temperature by a degree or two and and the same time circulate moisture and mold, but in short, nothing will beat a heat pump.

Agreed. My parents installed an HRV despite my misgivings and it made no noticeable difference at all. Tile roof with lots of air circulation, there was never going to be much warm air to pump back into the house. Even the addition of a heater in the ducting made no difference.

An HRV will work properly in the right type of house but the sellers don't care about that.

Heatpump beats it hands down.

[JacksColdSweat]

Except maybe in capital cost... :msn-wink:

...

That said, they're never going to be anywhere near as bad as an electric heater which works in the high 90% range of efficiency. You mentioned you're now maintaining a steady temperature in your home - to do that with other methods of heating would cost you a hell of a lot more.

Actually my point around the heat pump and HRVs still stands

An HRV is cheaper to install - but it doesn't (really) heat your home - it dries it - hence my saying they are not in the same league

You get a degree or two more warmth - not the change we got from 4 degrees inside one morning to 16 an hour and a half later (yes, I'm so anal I watched the thermometer)

I agree with you totally - traditional resistance heaters are SHOCKINGLY expensive for no real gain and gas heaters just pump more moisture in

As I said before - ours costs us around $65 per month in winter and I have no regrets - the whole house is warm and dry - and it's a crappy 1979 New Zealand masterpiece of thin fibrelite, corrugated iron and MDF floors...

[Skyryder]

Mitsibishi.

Skyryder

[Burtha]

Hiya
When we bought our place there was already a new fujistu in it. We're in Nelson and although pump only goes down to 18 degrees thats low enough for me and I quite a fussy pots so 15 would be ample.

Ours is big, isnt too loud, outside is well inside boundary so no probs there, inside is quite breezy but we can set fan direction, hot / cold, humidity, etc. Although we have it on auto most of the time having a full range of options is usefull esp if the house gets steamy, or your trying to dry clothes & stuff.

Tis also VERY economical.

[vifferman]

Mitsibishi.

Skyryder
Didja mean "Mitsubishi"?
If so, which - Mitsubishu Electric, or Mitsubishi Heavy Industries?
According to our installer, the latter has more experience and is a bigger player in the market (especially commercial), and most of it's R&D is passed on to its sibling, Mitsubishi Electric, who deal more with home appliances.
At his recommendation, we opted for the Mitsubishi Heavy Industries models (we have two), as they rated marginally better on the specs for energy consumption and noise output.

My in-laws bought two Panasonic units - they're smaller and less obtrusive than ours, but noticeably less effective (despite their house being newer and better insulated than ours). They bought Panasonic mainly because they were the only company to offer a unit with a self-cleaning filter. Unfortunately, because NZ gets whatever models Australia decides are best, and Aussies go for performance and value-for-money over features, by the time my father-in-law got around to ordering his, they weren't available any more.

[Max Preload]

Actually my point around the heat pump and HRVs still stands

An HRV is cheaper to install - but it doesn't (really) heat your home - it dries it - hence my saying they are not in the same league

You get a degree or two more warmth - not the change we got from 4 degrees inside one morning to 16 an hour and a half later (yes, I'm so anal I watched the thermometer)

I agree with you totally - traditional resistance heaters are SHOCKINGLY expensive for no real gain and gas heaters just pump more moisture in

As I said before - ours costs us around $65 per month in winter and I have no regrets - the whole house is warm and dry - and it's a crappy 1979 New Zealand masterpiece of thin fibrelite, corrugated iron and MDF floors...

I was commenting on them being in the same league price wise - last time I checked the HRV wasn't far off the price to a heat pump and they're certainly not in the same league performance wise.

As a side note, people often make claims about excessive power consumption from oil column heaters and they won't listen to the fact that they use no more power for the same heating effect as a fan, panel or bar heater i.e. their efficiency is the same. But oil column heaters have to be used differently to get the same result. The heat that remains in a oil column heater is not utilised if you switch it off just as you go to bed - they should be turned on about an hour before they're actually needed and turned off about an hour before the time they're no longer needed as their effect is not immediate - it lags due to the need to heat the oil before the heat is felt in the room.

[vifferman]

As a side note, people often make claims about excessive power consumption from oil column heaters and they won't listen to the fact that they use no more power for the same heating effect as a fan, panel or bar heater i.e. their efficiency is the same. But oil column heaters have to be used differently to get the same result.
I think part of it is that oil column heaters have been hyped up to be more economical and safer than other heaters. The problem is they take longer to give out heat, and they don't circulate the heat at all.

HRV is similar in that sales seem to have been driven by some hype and exaggeration of the effectiveness of the units. My beef is that for what they are, they should be cheaper, and for what they cost, you're far better off spending a bit extra and getting a heat pump.

Before we had aircon installed, we had a large firebox in our lounge. We ripped it out because of the mess from ash and smoke (if it was a gusty night, smoke would puff out of the firebox or flue into the lounge). Also, I was the only one who took care of lighting it, cleaning out the ash, cutting up wood, etc etc.
We ripped it out, and were going to install a gas heater (had them in three other homes) when we realised if we got a heat pump instead we could use it in the summer as well. One of the better decisions we've made.

[Fatjim]

Actually oil coolumn heaters make you feel warmer than a fan heater for the same heat output. They also maintain a steady heat in the room.

But 1kw of heat is still 1kw of heat.

[Max Preload]

I think part of it is that oil column heaters have been hyped up to be more economical and safer than other heaters. The problem is they take longer to give out heat, and they don't circulate the heat at all.

I've never seen any such claims of better economy. They're certainly safer around children and pets as the surface temperatures are considerably lower than that of a bar heater. They circulate heat but most by convection so you do get uneven temperature across the room.


HRV is similar in that sales seem to have been driven by some hype and exaggeration of the effectiveness of the units. My beef is that for what they are, they should be cheaper, and for what they cost, you're far better off spending a bit extra and getting a heat pump.

Absolutely. HRV & DVS systems should be much cheaper. Heat pumps are priced about right for the return in savings.


Actually oil column heaters make you feel warmer than a fan heater for the same heat output.

Only because of the fan - if you're not sitting directly in front of a fan heater it'll feel similar and heat the room more evenly.

[Lias]

It should also be worth noting that if you have asthmatics or allergy sufferers in the house, the best brand is a Fujitsu for their plasma filters.

[Fatjim]

Absolutely. HRV & DVS systems should be much cheaper. Heat pumps are priced about right for the return in savings.


This pisses me off in two ways. Firstly the people that get ripped off for a DVS system thats a $50 fan and a bit of tubing. The most expensive bit is th controller, but you pay extra for that!

Secondly, why should stuff be solely priced on what it saves you, why bother buying something for $5000 to line the pockets of someone when it only saves you $500 over 10 years. This is the case in heat pump hot water systems. I think they are a great idea, but why spend an extra $3000 getting one? This is one area where I think the gummint needs to step in. Although I'm not sure what they could do.

[Kiwi Graham]

I've got three....Fujitsu's. There quiet and do exactly what there supposed to. You get a six year warrenty with them as well.
Careful siting is important but the consultant will help you with that, their multi directional anyway.
In this current climate you should be able to do a deal on price!

[vifferman]

Actually oil coolumn heaters make you feel warmer than a fan heater for the same heat output.
You're not supposed to sit on them, y'know... :confused:

[BMWST?]

despite the hype,and misleading names,HRV is only a ventilation system,that takes advatage of warmer air in the roof space.They are not a heating system.
A heat pump is very efficient in that it is not "making" heat,it transfres heat from outside to inside(or visa versa) in exactly the same way a fridge transfers heat from inside to outside
If you are considering heating in Dunedin,have you considered a pellet burner.?

[Max Preload]

...why should stuff be solely priced on what it saves you, why bother buying something for $5000 to line the pockets of someone when it only saves you $500 over 10 years. This is the case in heat pump hot water systems. I think they are a great idea, but why spend an extra $3000 getting one? This is one area where I think the gummint needs to step in. Although I'm not sure what they could do.

You lost me here. As far as I'm concerned that is the primary criteria - no point in it costing more than it's going to save you in its useful life. That's not to say I would object to it costing less and the payback time being less.

[vifferman]

You lost me here. As far as I'm concerned that is the primary criteria - no point in it costing more than it's going to save you in its useful life. That's not to say I would object to it costing less and the payback time being less.
?
Now you've lost me.
My primary criteria was to get some heating for the lounge. When I realised I could cool the lounge in winter as well, I changed from a gas heater to aircon, and got it for the basement as well. Being more cost-effective than any other form of heating was just an added benefit/incentive, not the primary one. It's not making money - it's a straight cost, albeit less than any other form of heating. However (but!) that's kinda negated by using it to cool the house in summer, as if I'd got some other form of heating there'd by no costs in the summertime.

Frankly, I don't really care. I just have to accept I have three parasites that cost me lots of money: each month I fork out $300 for power, $200+ for teh Interdweeb, and about $1500 for food and drink. I've given up trying to actually save any money. :blank:

[0lddog]

HRV is similar in that sales seem to have been driven by some hype and exaggeration of the effectiveness of the units. My beef is that for what they are, they should be cheaper, and for what they cost, you're far better off spending a bit extra and getting a heat pump..

Top of the morning from the Emerald Isle,

Its not really a case of HRV replacing a heat pump

HRV requires an air tight building that is very insulated. Otherwise its a waste of time ( er, thats money that I mean )

Most of the heat pump makers also offer HRV units that integrate into the their heat pump duct indoor units.

Mitsi have the losnay ( loosnay ? ) Daiken have one too

In the case of mitsi they have a 7 day controller that you can set up to control both the heat pump and HRV.

Does Dunedin really go down to -15C in winter ?

[davereid]

Do they save much money ?

Say 5 kw conventional heater, using 5 kw power for 5 hours a day @$0.20 kw/hr. $5 day running cost or $450 per year if you heat every day of winter.

Heat pump will cost possibly as little as 1/4 of that amount, but likely closer to 1/3, say $150 per year.

This saves $300 per year.

If your heat pump cost $4000 installed, you will break even after 13.3 years.

If you still own the house, and the heat pump is still going well, and hasn't required any repairs that is.

Of course, if you use the heat pump more, or for longer you will have a shorter rate of return, and if you use it less, a much longer period will be required before it can be considered a good investment.

On the other hand, if you chucked the $4000 in bonus bonds, and managed a real 4% return you would earn $160 a year in payouts. Which if they went on your power bill, would give the heat pump a 27 year break even point.

[Winston001]

Does Dunedin really go down to -15C in winter ?

Sure and its fine to be hearing from the land of the Little People. :clap: As for Dunedin.....15 degrees of frost? No.

It certainly gets cold and damp in the bottom of the valleys but not -15.


Do they save much money ?

Say 5 kw conventional heater, using 5 kw power for 5 hours a day @$0.20 kw/hr. $5 day running cost or $450 per year if you heat every day of winter.

Heat pump will cost possibly as little as 1/4 of that amount, but likely closer to 1/3, say $150 per year.

This saves $300 per year.

If your heat pump cost $4000 installed, you will break even after 13.3 years.

If you still own the house, and the heat pump is still going well, and hasn't required any repairs that is.

Of course, if you use the heat pump more, or for longer you will have a shorter rate of return, and if you use it less, a much longer period will be required before it can be considered a good investment.

On the other hand, if you chucked the $4000 in bonus bonds, and managed a real 4% return you would earn $160 a year in payouts. Which if they went on your power bill, would give the heat pump a 27 year break even point.

Good calculations which seem pretty accurate, although I understood that maximum efficiency was 1:3 ie. 1kw electricity produces 3kw of heat. When the ambient temperature is close to or below zero, the efficiency is less - just when you use it most.

Never mind. People who install heatpumps say their power bills don't change, in fact may rise a little, but the vast improvement in warmth and dryness of the house is worth every cent. Marvellous.

[normajeane]

Thanks for all your help so far.
.

Regarding a breeze in the room with the heat pump going, it doesn't really bother me as longs as its warm air.

Ahhhh, the breeze. Ours is a wall attachment and I thought like you that as long as it is WARM, well during the warm cycles it does blow cool - depending on your set temp. At the mo it is on 19 warm and the flow is curling around my feet from the wall and it is COOL. So, I would recommend a Floor mounted job that does not force itself down around your feet/neck and draught the cool parts over you! Otherwise it is the best thing since sliced bread.:clap:

[Max Preload]

Good calculations which seem pretty accurate, although I understood that maximum efficiency was 1:3 ie. 1kw electricity produces 3kw of heat. When the ambient temperature is close to or below zero, the efficiency is less - just when you use it most.

Their CoP (co-efficient of performance, which is NOT to be confused with efficiency which cannot exceed 100%) varies greatly with the temperature differential between ambient outside and room temperature. The higher that difference, the lower the CoP. Also heat pumps use a little more power at lower temperatures because they're operating closer to dewpoint so have to use energy to defrost the evaporator.

[0lddog]

........... Also heat pumps use a little more power at lower temperatures because they're operating closer to dewpoint so have to use energy to defrost the evaporator............

The COP figure is based on a standard outside temperature ( think its 7C W.B. - but would have to look it up to be sure )

With most heat pumps the COP figure changes significantly as the outside temperature changes. Manufacturers publish graphs of the variation ( at least Mitsi, Daiken and Toshiba do )

As the outside temperatire falls so the COP falls

This is of course a shame as its not untill its very cold outside that you really need inside heat !

[Laxi]

got a cheap one from te whare about 4 years ago, weve got an old ex housing corp up stairs, down stairs, its in the lounge downstairs and warms the whole upstairs too, never had a problem with it

[munterk6]

I have an HRV and a 4.5kw Panasonic heatpump. I have insulated the ceiling and underfloor in my 55 year old weatherboard and concrete rooftiled house...90 sqmtrs. The HRV made a real difference to the general humidity and dry air is a lot easier and cheaper to heat than damp air. Its like the heatpump is on steroids now with the HRV doin' its thing.
The temp has never gone below 16 degC and the humidity hovers around 40 to 50%. And this is WITHOUT the heatpump on!
I paid $2600 for the HRV and I reckon my $$$ were well spent..I'm happy.
The heatpump was s/h and was $1600 installed. Never had a problem with it after 2 years. In case of power outage, I have retained the chip burner in the kitchen. :clap:

[Disco Dan]

Anyone seen the mitsubishi heat pump advert? The one with the 'thermal camera' ?

The one that shows all the colours - the heat around the room ?

The one that shows a COLD BLOODED GOLDFISH in a COLD WATER tank as HOT?

Cracked me up when i saw it... sad that people will actually believe them.

[Trouser]

That has probably been in that room soaking up the heat so it is now ambient. Do you think people refrigerate goldfish tanks then?

[Disco Dan]

That has probably been in that room soaking up the heat so it is now ambient. Do you think people refrigerate goldfish tanks then?

A cold blooded fish remains the same temperature as the water it is in.

The advert showed the fish as red while the water stayed 'white'. Indicating that the fish was just as hot as a human being.

Obviously impossible.

[Ocean1]

Do they save much money ?
If your heat pump cost $4000 installed, you will break even after 13.3 years.


Or more, as you say.

Other advantages they've got are the timer function and the quiet(er) fan circulation.

So, are there any direct electric heaters in the upper size range out there that, (while costing twice as much to run) match those features?

[eldog]

Ok, looking at getting a heat pump system(s)

getting either Daiken or Mitsi system

So far had 2 people look at house (don't think I need more, unless someone knows otherwise)

Waiting for the Mitsi quote...... The guy is well know local business.

Both seem to do/look at the same system ideas.

Currently the Daiken one is offering 2 off split systems (1x2 areas and 1x3)with a energy recovering unit as I asked if we could also add some outside air to the rooms-also to help air flow. I can use the air from the roof for heat exchange but don't want to use it as part of incoming air because of musty smell from rodents etc. so HRV and DVS are currently off the radar.
(had a HRV salesman here pleasant enough but tried to scare me about mould etc - which I have gotten rid of - was much easier than I though, use a microfibre cloth and Move-it dilute with warm water and gently wipe the area)

All the whizz bang ones they show for the internal units are unavailable for split systems and seem to be only for 1 internal/external combination.

They haven't been all that convincing about what I am getting apart from jotting down a few part names (some of which were the wrong ones)

Wondering if I should go for bigger units and individual vs split - as I feel temps are rising.

and I will have to ask about noise for neighbours who have a door slamming fetish

and if WIFI control is worth it.
Any comments?

[Drew]

Are you talking about a 'multi'? One outdoor and a few indoor units.

Or ducted units?

[Voltaire]

In the 5 years I was installing heat pumps, only ever did one multi. It was a headache as one of the solenoids on the outdoor unit passed when

one of the indoor units was off and you could hear it. Probably better now.

I've got WiFi on my Mitsi in the lounge, used it once. Cheap enough for it as an extra but how much shit do you want to run off your phone

:baby:

See a lot of HRV units, seem to rely on a good Salesman as they are nothing magic. Filters are expensive. Fit a Smartvent or something

without one sole point of sale.

Noise was an issue with R22 units years ago, less so with VSD compressors and low noise fans. Cheap ones have VSD noise which is annoying.

You probably would not want the outdoor unit facing the neighbours bedroom.

[Drew]

In the 5 years I was installing heat pumps, only ever did one multi. It was a headache as one of the solenoids on the outdoor unit passed when

one of the indoor units was off and you could hear it. Probably better now.

I've got WiFi on my Mitsi in the lounge, used it once. Cheap enough for it as an extra but how much shit do you want to run off your phone

:baby:

See a lot of HRV units, seem to rely on a good Salesman as they are nothing magic. Filters are expensive. Fit a Smartvent or something

without one sole point of sale.

Noise was an issue with R22 units years ago, less so with VSD compressors and low noise fans. Cheap ones have VSD noise which is annoying.

You probably would not want the outdoor unit facing the neighbours bedroom.
Done quite a few multis. Haven't had any issues with them. They're fucken expensive though.

The outdoor capacity is usually pretty high, so they can make a bit of a din if all the indoors are being asked to go hard at once.

[eldog]

Are you talking about a 'multi'? One outdoor and a few indoor units.

Or ducted units?
From what I understand it's the following Daiken models
2 off Multi units
1 outdoor unit 3MXS68 supplying 2x indoor ones FFQ50 + FTXS25KVMA
1 outdoor unit 3MXS68 supplying 3x indoor ones FQ20 + FFQ25 + FFQ35
with
outside air being filtered and blown into rooms (low rate) after passing through a heat recovery ERS170 (heat exchanger) and some air sucked out of the hallway

less than 20 K installed, $190 per year annual service

After looking at the house initially thought a cassette unit would be better as it could drain away the condensate with out a pump (they don't want to install a pump)
the above part numbers will change as they may all be std wall units, if we can find a way to drain the condensate, without a pump.

I thought wrongly that I could use the 'latest' indoor units with the outdoor units but apparently I can't. from the inference I got it could be technical or just the supplier won't sell them with the multi one.

Going to change lights from mostly recessed to dim able LED so I can reinsulate the roof to Sth Is specs

going to see them again this week (so I can get a better understanding) and check out what happened to the Mitsi agent so I can compare apples and apples

and I can ask about the noise for the neighbours bedroom (who's hot!!!)

[Voltaire]

Done quite a few multis. Haven't had any issues with them. They're fucken expensive though.

The outdoor capacity is usually pretty high, so they can make a bit of a din if all the indoors are being asked to go hard at once.

I only did one and supplier were unhelpful as I purchased it off one of their customers and it all got a bit messy....lessons learned :yes:
It was about 9KW and as you say was pretty loud at full load.

[BMWST?]

From what I understand it's the following Daiken models
2 off Multi units
1 outdoor unit 3MXS68 supplying 2x indoor ones FFQ50 + FTXS25KVMA
1 outdoor unit 3MXS68 supplying 3x indoor ones FQ20 + FFQ25 + FFQ35
with
outside air being filtered and blown into rooms (low rate) after passing through a heat recovery ERS170 (heat exchanger) and some air sucked out of the hallway

less than 20 K installed, $190 per year annual service

After looking at the house initially thought a cassette unit would be better as it could drain away the condensate with out a pump (they don't want to install a pump)
the above part numbers will change as they may all be std wall units, if we can find a way to drain the condensate, without a pump.

I thought wrongly that I could use the 'latest' indoor units with the outdoor units but apparently I can't. from the inference I got it could be technical or just the supplier won't sell them with the multi one.

Going to change lights from mostly recessed to dim able LED so I can reinsulate the roof to Sth Is specs

going to see them again this week (so I can get a better understanding) and check out what happened to the Mitsi agent so I can compare apples and apples

and I can ask about the noise for the neighbours bedroom (who's hot!!!)
they wont want to split up an exiting pair of units.All the sales are paired inddor/outdoor units.So all the available stuff is paired units.You would probably have to order especially and wait.As there is no volume though you will pay a lot to get a "unusual" setup.sounds a different setup to a normal heatpump suystem.Is it partially ducted?

[eldog]

they wont want to split up an exiting pair of units.All the sales are paired inddor/outdoor units.So all the available stuff is paired units.You would probably have to order especially and wait.As there is no volume though you will pay a lot to get a "unusual" setup.sounds a different setup to a normal heatpump suystem.Is it partially ducted?

Sounds like the usual BS - because I want something different

I think it is partly ducted to get the 'outside air' portion in. From what I gather this part is separate to the 'heat pump system' just the inlets (into each room) and the air is removed from one place (hallway)

If it goes as I expect it too (tits up) then it will be separate indoor and outdoor units to get the fancy indoor units with the 'sensors' to detect location of people and if the room is used.

I don't intend on using the heat pump to heat/cool areas which are unused but want to be able to cool the whole house with out too much effort (thinking summer here has been hotter than normal.

Its also to protect the bike

[Drew]

they wont want to split up an exiting pair of units.All the sales are paired inddor/outdoor units.So all the available stuff is paired units.You would probably have to order especially and wait.As there is no volume though you will pay a lot to get a "unusual" setup.sounds a different setup to a normal heatpump suystem.Is it partially ducted?
We buy indoors and outdoors separately all the time. They have no issues selling them like that. With the bigger brands method of warranty work going something like. "Hmmm, Compressor seized you say? Another outdoor unit will be sent tomorrow".

We mix and match multis all the time. They do specials on set packages, but they need to be so house specific there's no gain to be made that way.

[Drew]

Sounds like the usual BS - because I want something different

I think it is partly ducted to get the 'outside air' portion in. From what I gather this part is separate to the 'heat pump system' just the inlets (into each room) and the air is removed from one place (hallway)

If it goes as I expect it too (tits up) then it will be separate indoor and outdoor units to get the fancy indoor units with the 'sensors' to detect location of people and if the room is used.

I don't intend on using the heat pump to heat/cool areas which are unused but want to be able to cool the whole house with out too much effort (thinking summer here has been hotter than normal.

Its also to protect the bike
Is it a split level house? Must be if no one is talking ducted units.

[eldog]

Is it a split level house? Must be if no one is talking ducted units.

Single level, concrete floor, brick and decramastic tile late 70's, 3 bed, living and kitchen areas.
230 m2

hopefully I am not missing the obvious.

[BMWST?]

We buy indoors and outdoors separately all the time. They have no issues selling them like that. With the bigger brands method of warranty work going something like. "Hmmm, Compressor seized you say? Another outdoor unit will be sent tomorrow".

We mix and match multis all the time. They do specials on set packages, but they need to be so house specific there's no gain to be made that way.
thats good to know.Its not what i was told when i was shopping for a multi system

[Drew]

Single level, concrete floor, brick and decramastic tile late 70's, 3 bed, living and kitchen areas.
230 m2

hopefully I am not missing the obvious.
Is there no room in the crawl space? Otherwise a ducted unit sounds ideal.

[sidecar bob]

I have no heat pump advice except to say that Drew is my go to heat pump guy. Another one next weekend. His advice & installs are as good as it gets.

[Drew]

thats good to know.Its not what i was told when i was shopping for a multi system
You've gotta buy from accredited installers to get the most from each outfit I think.

[Drew]

I have no heat pump advice except to say that Drew is my go to heat pump guy. Another one next weekend. His advice & installs are as good as it gets.
Easy tiger. I just got lucky with yours.

[BMWST?]

You've gotta buy from accredited installers to get the most from each outfit I think.
i went to a more commercial wellington based heat pump place.They couldnt have been less helpful if they tried

[Drew]

i went to a more commercial wellington based heat pump place.They couldnt have been less helpful if they tried

It's prolly quite hard with all of the people selling these things. Good advice and service is prolly not the norm.

Choppa has a good sized operation. Three of us installing and him selling. He gets good deals from distributors for buying a lot of units, and he knows his shit.

As a customer, ya want that middle sized business to get the best deal.

[sidecar bob]

Easy tiger. I just got lucky with yours.

My "turbocharged Hayabusa" as you put it. I'm sooo warm tonight.:2thumbsup

[Drew]

My "turbocharged Hayabusa" as you put it. I'm sooo warm tonight.:2thumbsup

There are bigger capacity high wall units, but ya wouldn't want them in a house I reckon. Yours is the boss.

[eldog]

You've gotta buy from accredited installers to get the most from each outfit I think.

I will find out, if he is installing it or not.

I doubt Drew is willing to travel to AKL for an install

[eldog]

Is there no room in the crawl space? Otherwise a ducted unit sounds ideal.
It's a roof with 2 angles 30 degree to the top and 12.5 degree from the outer wall for about 1200 from memory.

There is about 100-150mm at the outer wall and quite a bit of space at the middle - easy enough room to stand up in.

Going up in the roof tomorrow to see what's died there recently - plenty of blowies appearing (150 so far)

[Drew]

I will find out, if he is installing it or not.

I doubt Drew is willing to travel to AKL for an install

It wouldn't be the first time.

A ducted unit is a couple days to install for one or two guys a lot of times.

If there's room to move around in the attic, you can normally get a ducted unit to suit. Really sounds like it could be a good option.

Smaller outfits don't often sell them. They can be a mongrel of a job. Clamoring around amongst pink Batts and hating your life. Sweating like a gypsy with a mortgage. Shit work. So those of us doing it charge accordingly...except Choppa. The mofo won't charge market rates no matter how much I bitch about not wanting to work so hard.


From the money you are talking, it could well be a cheaper option though.

[Drew]

It's a roof with 2 angles 30 degree to the top and 12.5 degree from the outer wall for about 1200 from memory.

There is about 100-150mm at the outer wall and quite a bit of space at the middle - easy enough room to stand up in.

Going up in the roof tomorrow to see what's died there recently - plenty of blowies appearing (150 so far)

Dude. Go ducted! Electronic damper Controller in any rooms you want to be able to turn off that aren't always used, fresh air intake on another controller if ya want it. Climate control the whole shimozzle!

230 squares is a fucken big house for three bedrooms isn't it?

[haydes55]

Get a wood fire and heat transfer kit. Less than half the cost and quieter.

[Drew]

Get a wood fire and heat transfer kit. Less than half the cost and quieter.

Dunno about the cost. That shit aint cheap to have retrofitted. Properly specced andinstalled, a ducted should be near silent from inside the house.

[eldog]

Ducted I will look into it.

trying to keep an open mind about what system to put in.

it sounds big. But isn't really, it includes a double garage with enough room to swing a cat.

it was designed by an architect who lived here, has a few more modern features than would have been expected, and a few more which are a PITA

you don't want to be in the roof midday in summer. Good way to loose weight though.

reason for no ducted-probably because I didn't suggest it in the first place.
they both seemed keen to supply indoor and outdoor units
they asked me what I wanted and I said I didn't really know could they suggest something, but I wanted to be able to separately heat/cool each area of the house with adding air from outside (can get stuffy in a closed bedroom)

a mate of mine has a ducted system but he was doing a full Reno including digging under his house and creating a whole living floor under his, he did the ducted system as part of the build

[Drew]

Ducted I will look into it.

trying to keep an open mind about what system to put in.

it sounds big. But isn't really, it includes a double garage with enough room to swing a cat.

it was designed by an architect who lived here, has a few more modern features than would have been expected, and a few more which are a PITA

you don't want to be in the roof midday in summer. Good way to loose weight though.
Ah. So less than 200m2 to be heated/cooled. No trouble getting a unit capable of that unless every wall is glass and there's no insulation.

There are gas central heating systems that seem popular at the moment. Not my thing so dunno how they work, but could also be something to look into. No cooling though.

You shouldn't have to be making the suggestion. It's supposed to be them giving options.

Is this normal? Are outfits just quoting what people ask about and fucking off? Doesn't sound like they're doing themselves any favors.

[eldog]

Ah. So less than 200m2 to be heated/cooled. No trouble getting a unit capable of that unless every wall is glass and there's no insulation.

There are gas central heating systems that seem popular at the moment. Not my thing so dunno how they work, but could also be something to look into. No cooling though.
Tomorrow I will work out the exact sizes, I am building up a acad dwg of the house so I can label the electrical points etc Currently it has 50% fuses and 50% circuit breakers all unlabelled. LOL

Keeping away from gas as I expect it to rise in cost as the fields slow down. There plenty of power-in the Sth Is we can use:innocent:

Insulation in roof space is going to be increased to the joist height and then a blanket over to the outside of the house and ALSO the garage will be insulated.
Changing lights so I can cover them with insulation as well

[haydes55]

Dunno about the cost. That shit aint cheap to have retrofitted. Properly specced andinstalled, a ducted should be near silent from inside the house.
Top of the range fire that can heat that area about $3500. bits and bobs needed for install, installation and permit, around $6000. Average heat transfer unit installed about $1500.

Firenzo fires can have an outside air intake for the combustion air.

If you want fresh air, a top of the range HRV, with heat transfer and summer kit will use less power than a air con system and cost around $9000 for your size house.

Best wood fire you can buy and best ventilation system you can buy, still only $15,000. Or $7500 for a simpler heat transfer system with the fire.

[Drew]

Oh yeah. With a ducted you can't cool one area and heat another. So that's prolly the crux of it right there. My bad.

[haydes55]

Oh yeah. With a ducted you can't cool one area and heat another. So that's prolly the crux of it right there. My bad.
99% of the time you should never need to. Could a ducted system heat one room and just dehumidify another?

I know with multi indoor units off 2 out door units you can.

[eldog]

You shouldn't have to be making the suggestion. It's supposed to be them giving options.

Is this normal? Are outfits just quoting what people ask about and fucking off? Doesn't sound like they're doing themselves any favors.

I know I shouldn't have made a suggestion, I suppose they were wanting to know if I wanted cheap arse and expected the rolls Royce item.

I didn't want just heat and cool, I knew from the insulation guy who saw me earlier to be aware about air flow once the light fitting where covered.

I think people are very busy at the moment so they are getting so many enquiries that they quoting what they feel is correct, at least this guy is coming back and asking questions.

maybe I should get your man to quote it for a fee just to keep them honest.

[eldog]

Oh yeah. With a ducted you can't cool one area and heat another. So that's prolly the crux of it right there. My bad.
Having lived in this house for a while, there aren't many times of the year that would require heating and cooling at the same time.

a few years back mostly heating, lately mostly cooling on a few weeks of the year.

it has a Jetfire fireplace which draws air from the room to fuel it. It ducts air under it and over the top to heat the air in the room as well as radiant heat.

looks nice when working but doesn't heat all that much. Read about others fires on other threads on KB, externally supplied air to fire seems best, otherwise using some of the heated air to be burnt and go up through the chimney.

[eldog]

Top of the range fire that can heat that area about $3500. bits and bobs needed for install, installation and permit, around $6000. Average heat transfer unit installed about $1500.

Firenzo fires can have an outside air intake for the combustion air.

If you want fresh air, a top of the range HRV, with heat transfer and summer kit will use less power than a air con system and cost around $9000 for your size house.

Best wood fire you can buy and best ventilation system you can buy, still only $15,000. Or $7500 for a simpler heat transfer system with the fire.

The HRV man was looking at approx $4000 with out a heat pump for a normal HRV install.

[Drew]

99% of the time you should never need to. Could a ducted system heat one room and just dehumidify another? I know with multi indoor units off 2 out door units you can.No. But when your keeping positive pressure you shouldn't need to run a dehumidifier. The moisture is being pushed out rather than absorbed.

[Drew]

The HRV man was looking at approx $4000 with out a heat pump for a normal HRV install.

Ventilation is good. I think they're all over priced (and we install them), but they maintain positive pressure to reduce moisture.

[BMWST?]

Ventilation is good. I think they're all over priced (and we install them), but they maintain positive pressure to reduce moisture.
he doesnt want to use the roof space air too many dead rats up there

[sidecar bob]

Get a wood fire and heat transfer kit. Less than half the cost and quieter.

Not if you include the noise of the chainsaw & axe.
I'm past wasting my weekend doing manual labour. One small beep from the unit & ten minutes later, toasty.

[Drew]

he doesnt want to use the roof space air too many dead rats up there

You can use outside air.

[eldog]

You can use outside air.
BOC AKL have it on special this week

wont be long before AKL council figure a way to tax it either

[Drew]

BOC AKL have it on special this week

wont be long before AKL council figure a way to tax it either
BOC wellington better not start selling that Aukland air down here though.

[eldog]

he doesnt want to use the roof space air too many dead rats up there

Just one I think, this time, it's under the insulation (usually on top) in a roof space approx 300 high, I can smell it but it's nearly gone by the amount of smell.
its one of 2 that's been hard to get crafty buggers.
got the other one a month or 2 ago, saw it running around outside during daylight (I have seen it inside the house too) it was desparate to get in.

replacing the spouting and putting an ally mesh to stop leaves and rodents getting in

got the drainage man coming this week I hope to look at what he can do.

so it's quite busy, got to figure out who first.

20 more blowies today

[Ocean1]

The HRV man was looking at approx $4000 with out a heat pump for a normal HRV install.

Which, for a fan, half a dozen vents, a few meters of ducting and 3 or 4 hrs work is just fucking ridiculous.

$400 is probably more what it should be.

[Ocean1]

Not if you include the noise of the chainsaw & axe.
I'm past wasting my weekend doing manual labour. One small beep from the unit & ten minutes later, toasty.

Yeah that's for sure. I reckon the amount of time you spend sweating your ring out dropping a decent sized gum, chopping it up, splitting it, stacking it and fetching it in to burn is roughly the same as the time it spends making you warm.

So why not just exercise through winter instead?

There is something about a nice fire though, other than the fact that they're probably at least as interesting to watch than the shite on TV...

[sidecar bob]

Which, for a fan, half a dozen vents, a few meters of ducting and 3 or 4 hrs work is just fucking ridiculous.

$400 is probably more what it should be.

When they phone us soliciting for work, I say, "yes we already have one, we call ours a window"

[Drew]

Which, for a fan, half a dozen vents, a few meters of ducting and 3 or 4 hrs work is just fucking ridiculous.

$400 is probably more what it should be.The components are fucken expensive to buy, for what they are. What we pay for 'Smartvent' systems is fucken unbelievable.

[Drew]

When they phone us soliciting for work, I say, "yes we already have one, we call ours a window"

Your place wouldn't be a likely candidate for an efficient system anyway.

[george formby]

Not wanting to hijack the thread.... but, fuck it, I will ask anyway.
We have been using a portable de-humidifier in the cottage lately and it does a better job of warming the house than the fire. Sooo, I'm thinking of looking into a dedicated system when we do our refurb.
Stick the unit under the house with ducting and vents at floor level in the rooms, transfer the warm air back into the house. Is this a sane idea with a wood fire for heat in a house which it is impossible to completely draft and damp proof? The cottage is 140 years old and not exactly straight or level.

[Drew]

Not wanting to hijack the thread.... but, fuck it, I will ask anyway.
We have been using a portable de-humidifier in the cottage lately and it does a better job of warming the house than the fire. Sooo, I'm thinking of looking into a dedicated system when we do our refurb.
Stick the unit under the house with ducting and vents at floor level in the rooms, transfer the warm air back into the house. Is this a sane idea with a wood fire for heat in a house which it is impossible to completely draft and damp proof? The cottage is 140 years old and not exactly straight or level.
You would need to duct the air into a dehumidifier from inside the house, then back in. If you're gonna go to that level, a normal ventilation system will have the desired effect of drying the house out.

Still worth it even without the best sealed house.

[sidecar bob]

Your place wouldn't be a likely candidate for an efficient system anyway.

The lack of any roof space would make installing one fairly challenging too.

[Ocean1]

The components are fucken expensive to buy, for what they are. What we pay for 'Smartvent' systems is fucken unbelievable.

Which tells me there's a barrier to entry into that market somewhere. Does the kit have to meet standards compliance?

I mean seriously, it cost less than $100 to make the lot. With a bit of effort I could buy everything except the wee blueteeth controller for less than $100.

Reminds me of the bullshit around the first insulation subsidy a few years ago. Poor people got a $1000 subsidy for installing roof insulation, but only if done by an approved installer. Overnight, and I mean literally overnight the price of a house lot of pink bats went up by $1000. The "approved installers" basically pocketed the subsidy.

[george formby]

Which tells me there's a barrier to entry into that market somewhere. Does the kit have to meet standards compliance?

I mean seriously, it cost less than $100 to make the lot. With a bit of effort I could buy everything except the wee blueteeth controller for less than $100.

Reminds me of the bullshit around the first insulation subsidy a few years ago. Poor people got a $1000 subsidy for installing roof insulation, but only if done by an approved installer. Overnight, and I mean literally overnight the price of a house lot of pink bats went up by $1000. The "approved installers" basically pocketed the subsidy.

Concur. Damned expensive.

We bought random insulation, floor and loft, off trade me. Different colours and sizes, all surplus to requirements, for bugger all. Buying it off the shelf would have been eye watering. I'm hoping to do the same with a dehumidifier / venting installation. I can't dodge the machinery but the rest of it is cheap.

[BMWST?]

heat pumps dehumidify as they heat or cool.There is also a dehumidify setting which just draws air through the indoor unit and cooling it a bit to get the moisture to drop out.Thats why the indoor units need a drain.to get rid of said condensate

[george formby]

heat pumps dehumidify as they heat or cool.There is also a dehumidify setting which just draws air through the indoor unit and cooling it a bit to get the moisture to drop out.Thats why the indoor units need a drain.to get rid of said condensate

That's what I need. But it has to do a whole house of small rooms, small doors, drafty windows and low ceilings which is why I'm thinking of a below house unit with venting. At times water drips from the ceiling as air condenses on the cold, rusty nails holding the place together. It would be easier to install than the loft and a heat pump on the wall could not cut it. Not enough circulation in the house. We have an air transfer system in the loft already which only manages to achieve a small fraction of fuck all when it comes to warmth and dryness.

[Drew]

Which tells me there's a barrier to entry into that market somewhere. Does the kit have to meet standards compliance?

I mean seriously, it cost less than $100 to make the lot. With a bit of effort I could buy everything except the wee blueteeth controller for less than $100.

Reminds me of the bullshit around the first insulation subsidy a few years ago. Poor people got a $1000 subsidy for installing roof insulation, but only if done by an approved installer. Overnight, and I mean literally overnight the price of a house lot of pink bats went up by $1000. The "approved installers" basically pocketed the subsidy.The Gan motor and controller can't be bought for what you're talking about. A fan and a basic manual controller could perhaps, but ya might be surprised.


heat pumps dehumidify as they heat or cool.There is also a dehumidify setting which just draws air through the indoor unit and cooling it a bit to get the moisture to drop out.Thats why the indoor units need a drain.to get rid of said condensate

The only moisture removal during heating is due to the higher air pressure of heated air. But less is absorbed into the house when its warm.

Set on cooling is when they remove the most moisture from the air. This can be tested by putting a load of wet washing on an airing rack and putting the heat pump on cooling and then again on heating. It's quite impressive. Same principle as putting a wet phone or watch in the fridge rather than the hot water cupboard. It evaporates quicker with the heat, but doesn't go anywhere.

[Ocean1]

The Gan motor and controller can't be bought for what you're talking about. A fan and a basic manual controller could perhaps, but ya might be surprised.

Don't know what motor controller they use, but it looks like a 200w full blown VFD can be had for $100.

If' I've underestimated the cost of materials involved by an order of magnitude they're still overcharging for a typical install by 4:1.

The sooner this shit comes plug & play at threepence ha'penny a dozen the better...

[Drew]

Don't know what motor controller they use, but it looks like a 200w full blown VFD can be had for $100.

If' I've underestimated the cost of materials involved by an order of magnitude they're still overcharging for a typical install by 4:1.

The sooner this shit comes plug & play at threepence ha'penny a dozen the better...
They use temp sensors and variable speeds depending on ceiling cavity and room temp.

Don't get me wrong, importers are making a fortune. Smartvent is near plug and play. Just a power feed to wire up manually. Ivents are a fucken mongrel to wire up. Those are the only two systems I have install experience with.

HRV seem to be the most overpriced, and they peddle them with a fucken useless 1100 watt heater in them that does NOTHING. Might go have a look in the crawl space here and see how they are wired. Prolly due for the filter to meet the compressor anyway.

[Voltaire]

Correct me if I'm wrong but one of these kits takes warm air from you ceiling space, blows if via 150 fan thru duct to rooms with a vent that

you can adjust flow. The controller has a thermostat that cuts it off when it gets below a setpoint of say 21 -23 degrees.

I quite like the Mitsubishi heat exchange that had an actual heat exchange that took the warm air exiting and warmed up the cool air entering.

Currently I just open a window.

Most rooms have N+ 1 of these.

[Ocean1]

They use temp sensors and variable speeds depending on ceiling cavity and room temp.

Don't get me wrong, importers are making a fortune. Smartvent is near plug and play. Just a power feed to wire up manually. Ivents are a fucken mongrel to wire up. Those are the only two systems I have install experience with.

HRV seem to be the most overpriced, and they peddle them with a fucken useless 1100 watt heater in them that does NOTHING. Might go have a look in the crawl space here and see how they are wired. Prolly due for the filter to meet the compressor anyway.

Yeah I know, but none of that requires cutting edge tech, it's all off the shelf. The only thing that's custom built for that lot is the controller/keypad, and there's plenty of locals that could develop those for fuck all.

The old dear up the road got ripped off to the tune of $6k. I didn't disillusion her with her shiny new system, but I did call the installer and had a brief chat.

[Drew]

Correct me if I'm wrong but one of these kits takes warm air from you ceiling space, blows if via 150 fan thru duct to rooms with a vent that

you can adjust flow. The controller has a thermostat that cuts it off when it gets below a setpoint of say 21 -23 degrees.

I quite like the Mitsubishi heat exchange that had an actual heat exchange that took the warm air exiting and warmed up the cool air entering.

Currently I just open a window.

Most rooms have N+ 1 of these.Pretty close.

The air in ceiling is not always warmer. But it doesn't have as much moisture in it as the air in the house. So through raising the pressure with dry air, the moisture is pushed out of the house.

[Ocean1]

Correct me if I'm wrong but one of these kits takes warm air from you ceiling space, blows if via 150 fan thru duct to rooms with a vent that

you can adjust flow. The controller has a thermostat that cuts it off when it gets below a setpoint of say 21 -23 degrees.

I quite like the Mitsubishi heat exchange that had an actual heat exchange that took the warm air exiting and warmed up the cool air entering.

Currently I just open a window.

Most rooms have N+ 1 of these.

Yeah pretty much. In an ideal world they read temp in several rooms and the roof space and fuck with air flow to different parts of the house separately.

The one I mentioned didn't do that. In fact I'm fucked if I know how they managed to get it to do what it did, which made no sense whatsoever.

[Drew]

Yeah pretty much. In an ideal world they read temp in several rooms and the roof space and fuck with air flow to different parts of the house separately.

The one I mentioned didn't do that. In fact I'm fucked if I know how they managed to get it to do what it did, which made no sense whatsoever.I've never see one that controlled flow separately to different rooms. Electronic dampers would do it, but there would be no point. The only temp it really needs is that of the crawl space. I set them to come on at 9°, step up at 15 and 20. Then step back down and off at 25,28, and 32

[Ocean1]

I've never see one that controlled flow separately to different rooms. Electronic dampers would do it, but there would be no point. The only temp it really needs is that of the crawl space. I set them to come on at 9°, step up at 15 and 20. Then step back down and off at 25,28, and 32

Neither have I, but it's an obvious improvement. There's a lot to be said for a single vent mounted fan with it's own thermocouple unit in each room, with a single processor managing the lot.

[russd7]

That's what I need. But it has to do a whole house of small rooms, small doors, drafty windows and low ceilings which is why I'm thinking of a below house unit with venting. At times water drips from the ceiling as air condenses on the cold, rusty nails holding the place together. It would be easier to install than the loft and a heat pump on the wall could not cut it. Not enough circulation in the house. We have an air transfer system in the loft already which only manages to achieve a small fraction of fuck all when it comes to warmth and dryness.

we lived in a big old damp house, the owner had put hrv in, there were two units running different parts of the house and drawing air from the ceiling space. it was a complete and utter waste of money and i ended up converting it to a double transfer system when we put the new fire in and that did a whole lot more good than the HRV, but the thing people tend to forget is that they need to leave doors open to allow the air to move around the house and that doesn't matter whether they are using a home ventilation system or heat transfer system or just leaving the windows open

[george formby]

we lived in a big old damp house, the owner had put hrv in, there were two units running different parts of the house and drawing air from the ceiling space. it was a complete and utter waste of money and i ended up converting it to a double transfer system when we put the new fire in and that did a whole lot more good than the HRV, but the thing people tend to forget is that they need to leave doors open to allow the air to move around the house and that doesn't matter whether they are using a home ventilation system or heat transfer system or just leaving the windows open

Yeah, we leave all the doors open in a vane attempt to heat the house. I suppose the current fire and fans rig does make a difference but it's certainly not enough to allow sitting around in a t shirt.:cold:

[Grumph]

Yeah, we leave all the doors open in a vane attempt to heat the house. I suppose the current fire and fans rig does make a difference but it's certainly not enough to allow sitting around in a t shirt.:cold:

I've given up on heating the whole house - but with only two of us we can do that. We just heat the room(s) we use.

From what you've said about your situation I suspect a fire and rebuild would give the best results....

[george formby]

I've given up on heating the whole house - but with only two of us we can do that. We just heat the room(s) we use.

From what you've said about your situation I suspect a fire and rebuild would give the best results....

LOL, it has cropped up numerous times in conversation..... :shutup: It's just 2 of us as well and overall it's liveable, lived in colder houses in colder climates but I'm getting soft in my dotage.

The house is getting warmer as each year passes, the efforts we put in to seem to make a difference.

Vapour barrier layer under about 60% of the house, draft exclusion where we can, air circulation etc.

Apart from heat, dehumidifying etc we intend digging a deep, lined, drainage channel along the side of the house which abutts a permanently wet clay bank. That should help, too. Bit by bit.

I've also thought of pulling the house down and using the money from the native timber to buy a really nice caravan. But the nails won't come out.

[BMWST?]

Yeah, we leave all the doors open in a vane attempt to heat the house. I suppose the current fire and fans rig does make a difference but it's certainly not enough to allow sitting around in a t shirt.:cold:

i see what you did there

[Drew]

I've given up on heating the whole house - but with only two of us we can do that. We just heat the room(s) we use.

From what you've said about your situation I suspect a fire and rebuild would give the best results....Heat transfers are a very tricky. You need to calculate static pressure and flow rates. Once that's done, a good heat source can be spread throughout.


LOL, it has cropped up numerous times in conversation..... :shutup: It's just 2 of us as well and overall it's liveable, lived in colder houses in colder climates but I'm getting soft in my dotage.

The house is getting warmer as each year passes, the efforts we put in to seem to make a difference.

Vapour barrier layer under about 60% of the house, draft exclusion where we can, air circulation etc.

Apart from heat, dehumidifying etc we intend digging a deep, lined, drainage channel along the side of the house which abutts a permanently wet clay bank. That should help, too. Bit by bit.

I've also thought of pulling the house down and using the money from the native timber to buy a really nice caravan. But the nails won't come out.
If you're gonna do any renovation work, get every mother fucker that sells any heating/ventilation through to quote. Get plans for each to draw what they intend on a set. Then work it out from there.

[george formby]

Heat transfers are a very tricky. You need to calculate static pressure and flow rates. Once that's done, a good heat source can be spread throughout.


If you're gonna do any renovation work, get every mother fucker that sells any heating/ventilation through to quote. Get plans for each to draw what they intend on a set. Then work it out from there.

Whats your number?

Your a bit far away but that is good advice. At least I would have a starting point for research and making an informed choice.

Our cottage is historically listed, not that that means much, but we want to consider the health of the house as well as our own. Bit of an icon in the community for a few generations.

[sidecar bob]

Apart from heat, dehumidifying etc we intend digging a deep, lined, drainage channel along the side of the house which abutts a permanently wet clay bank. That should help, too. Bit by bit.



Years ago I had a little place on a riverbank, the water table was about 200mm below ground surface & it was always damp under the house.
I crawled under & rolled out black polythene with a good overlap over the entire clay surface under the house, cutting it in around the piles.
It helped a lot.

[sidecar bob]

Whats your number?

Your a bit far away but that is good advice.

The dude has done a 14 hour round trip to do one for me & is going to do a 5 hour round trip to do another for me this weekend.
Board & lodgings, plus plenty of food & beer seem to be key here.
Bringing his warpig on the trailer & doing multiple rolling burn outs on it past our local was just a bonus really.

[Drew]

I can get work enough anywhere in the north island to make a trip worth it.

[Ocean1]

LOL, it has cropped up numerous times in conversation..... :shutup: It's just 2 of us as well and overall it's liveable, lived in colder houses in colder climates but I'm getting soft in my dotage.

The house is getting warmer as each year passes, the efforts we put in to seem to make a difference.

Vapour barrier layer under about 60% of the house, draft exclusion where we can, air circulation etc.

Apart from heat, dehumidifying etc we intend digging a deep, lined, drainage channel along the side of the house which abutts a permanently wet clay bank. That should help, too. Bit by bit.

I've also thought of pulling the house down and using the money from the native timber to buy a really nice caravan. But the nails won't come out.

I once looked at buying a house up the valley a way, its core had been a hunting lodge way back, when it was a day's tramp to get from Wellington to mid Hutt valley. The studs were 4"x4" Totara @ 18" spacing, you could see the pit-saw marks on the sides.

I though, "fuck, what's this lot worth", and "rather him than me under a fucking great Totara log spiltting it into 4" slabs".

[Drew]

I once looked at buying a house up the valley a way, it'd core had been a hunting lodge way back, when it was a day's tramp to get from Wellington to mid Hutt valley. The studs were 4"x4" Totara @ 18" spacing, you could see the pit-saw marks on the sides.

I though, "fuck, what's this lot worth", and "rather him than me under a fucking great Totara log spiltting it into 4" slabs".
Gotta pre drill that shit to get a nail into it. Getting them out...not a fucken chance. Grind them flush or try and punch them in if you want to dress it.

[Grumph]

Our cottage is historically listed, not that that means much, but we want to consider the health of the house as well as our own. Bit of an icon in the community for a few generations.

116yo 2 story wooden house here - not listed thank christ. Too low to the river rocks some of it is still sitting on to get under it...6mm MDF laid over the old floorboards post quakes made a hell of a difference. The mats don't lift in a southerly now...

[Grumph]

Heat transfers are a very tricky. You need to calculate static pressure and flow rates. Once that's done, a good heat source can be spread throughout.


You missed the point of that post Drew - an accelerant helps spread the heat too.

[russd7]

You missed the point of that post Drew - an accelerant helps spread the heat too.

yup, advice i got given years ago whilst living in rural areas, if you discover your house on fire, exit the house and make sure everyone is safe then continue to make extra sure everyone is safe, this should take approximately 20 minutes then call 111.

that was given to me 30 years ago, i should expect with modern building materials and furnishings that 10 minutes should be sufficient these days.

from experience, in rural areas the vollies are not going to get there quick enough to stop everything getting smoke damaged but can get there quick enough to stop a complete rebuild,

[Drew]

You missed the point of that post Drew - an accelerant helps spread the heat too.

My bad. Glassed over it and missed the point. Story of my life really.

[Ocean1]

Gotta pre drill that shit to get a nail into it. Getting them out...not a fucken chance. Grind them flush or try and punch them in if you want to dress it.

Yeah, it's impressive stuff. I used to be able to collect packing case pallets, from stuff imported from Indonesia. They were made out of planks 40mm thick by anything from 80 to 200mm wide, up to 4 metres long. It's all random rain forest timber, and I had collected several cubic meters of the better looking stuff when a friend spotted it. He's a naval architect, knows exotic timbers inside out. He was very surprised with what was there, came back a week later with some reference books and spent an hour cataloging the pile.

Most of the stuff I'd collected simply because it looked cool, with bright yellow and pink stripes through it turned out to be rose wood. Worth a bloody fortune for making reproduction antique furniture. I gave him a lot of it, but there's still some out back somewhere.

[Drew]

Yeah, it's impressive stuff. I used to be able to collect packing case pallets, from stuff imported from Indonesia. They were made out of planks 40mm thick by anything from 80 to 200mm wide, up to 4 metres long. It's all random rain forest timber, and I had collected several cubic meters of the better looking stuff when a friend spotted it. He's a naval architect, knows exotic timbers inside out. He was very surprised with what was there, came back a week later with some reference books and spent an hour cataloging the pile.

Most of the stuff I'd collected simply because it looked cool, with bright yellow and pink stripes through it turned out to be rose wood. Worth a bloody fortune for making reproduction antique furniture. I gave him a lot of it, but there's still some out back somewhere.
Get a thicknesse plane and fashion yourself something cool then big fella. Just remember to cut timber long. Can't weld up gaps with that shit.

[Ocean1]

Get a thicknesse plane and fashion yourself something cool then big fella. Just remember to cut timber long. Can't weld up gaps with that shit.

I have, from time to time.

and yeah, can't just weld it up and try again when you've fucked it up.

You do get to burn the mistakes...

[Grumph]

Yeah, it's impressive stuff. I used to be able to collect packing case pallets, from stuff imported from Indonesia. They were made out of planks 40mm thick by anything from 80 to 200mm wide, up to 4 metres long. It's all random rain forest timber, and I had collected several cubic meters of the better looking stuff when a friend spotted it. He's a naval architect, knows exotic timbers inside out. He was very surprised with what was there, came back a week later with some reference books and spent an hour cataloging the pile.

Most of the stuff I'd collected simply because it looked cool, with bright yellow and pink stripes through it turned out to be rose wood. Worth a bloody fortune for making reproduction antique furniture. I gave him a lot of it, but there's still some out back somewhere.

Our first house was in Diamond Harbour - across from Lyttelton. It turned out to have been largely built from Dunnage - the timber used to build temporary partitions and lock cargo into place in the holds of ships...then the PO had redone some interior walls using the shiplap Kauri from the old coolstores and copper nails, beautiful stuff.
Anyway, there was an anonymous piece of timber laying out back, just the right size for what I needed so i trimmed it slightly and thought shit this is hard...then predrilled some nail holes. About every 1/8in in on each hole there would be a "bang' as the dust and oils from the timber exploded...I've still got no idea what it was but AFAIK it's still on the house and has never rotted.

[Drew]

Our first house was in Diamond Harbour - across from Lyttelton. It turned out to have been largely built from Dunnage - the timber used to build temporary partitions and lock cargo into place in the holds of ships...then the PO had redone some interior walls using the shiplap Kauri from the old coolstores and copper nails, beautiful stuff.
Anyway, there was an anonymous piece of timber laying out back, just the right size for what I needed so i trimmed it slightly and thought shit this is hard...then predrilled some nail holes. About every 1/8in in on each hole there would be a "bang' as the dust and oils from the timber exploded...I've still got no idea what it was but AFAIK it's still on the house and has never rotted.
Sounds like the bit wasn't clearing. Happens with the hole saw pilot all the time.

[Ocean1]

Our first house was in Diamond Harbour - across from Lyttelton. It turned out to have been largely built from Dunnage - the timber used to build temporary partitions and lock cargo into place in the holds of ships...then the PO had redone some interior walls using the shiplap Kauri from the old coolstores and copper nails, beautiful stuff.
Anyway, there was an anonymous piece of timber laying out back, just the right size for what I needed so i trimmed it slightly and thought shit this is hard...then predrilled some nail holes. About every 1/8in in on each hole there would be a "bang' as the dust and oils from the timber exploded...I've still got no idea what it was but AFAIK it's still on the house and has never rotted.

If the PO had access to old marine materials it may well have been from some boat builder's precious stock of lignum vitae, you could have more or less named your price.

The above old gent used to buy old bowling balls, to carefully chop up and make block sheaves, (as in "block and tackle") and deadeyes. Like a lot of traditional boat building timbers, you simply can't buy it any more. The stuff is amazing, very heavy and almost indestructible.

[Grumph]

If the PO had access to old marine materials it may well have been from some boat builder's precious stock of lignum vitae, you could have more or less named your price.

The above old gent used to buy old bowling balls, to carefully chop up and make block sheaves, (as in "block and tackle") and deadeyes. Like a lot of traditional boat building timbers, you simply can't buy it any more. The stuff is amazing, very heavy and almost indestructible.

Yeah, I've worked Lignum Vitae, family built several boats incl 2 keelers. this was tentatively ID'd by an ex ships engineer across the road as an African hardwood which he thought was something like candlewood. Cut it and it was a bright yellow and almost waxy texture. Sharp drill clearing well - just the heat reached critical level and bang...

Well off topic but sheaves for yacht blocks - in fact the whole block assembly - were good earners for me in my high school years.
Tufnol rollers machined up on the family belt drive lathe in perspex sides with stainless fastenings.
Very light and lasted well. Ones I made went to two Olympics...

[Ocean1]

Yeah, I've worked Lignum Vitae, family built several boats incl 2 keelers. this was tentatively ID'd by an ex ships engineer across the road as an African hardwood which he thought was something like candlewood. Cut it and it was a bright yellow and almost waxy texture. Sharp drill clearing well - just the heat reached critical level and bang...

Well off topic but sheaves for yacht blocks - in fact the whole block assembly - were good earners for me in my high school years.
Tufnol rollers machined up on the family belt drive lathe in perspex sides with stainless fastenings.
Very light and lasted well. Ones I made went to two Olympics...

Block cheeks, I should have said, rather than sheaves.

Still great work if you can get it, very enjoyable, and Bruce used to send a bit my way but it's a dying market.

I've got his personal collection of drawings for most traditional fittings somewhere around here. Guess I should do something about that one day....