F**k, Damn, Triple f**k, shit!

[Wolf]

I think I've blown up my engine.

After spending most the day fucking around on the rear suspension and fitting new sprocket and chain, I was pulling out of a service station (fortunately not far from home) and the engine made a horrific tortured sound and stopped running. Now when I try to turn it over it sounds like the starter motor's running almost free (I can hear something moving) - it does not sound like I've got any compression at all and I cannot hear the carb aspirating.

As it was after dark, I have not been able to have a proper look (plus I feel rather fucked from pushing it home.)

Sure as hell doesn't sound good, though.

[Ixion]

Broken cam chain or broken starter clutch?

What happens if you push it in gear (you pushed it home, so presumably you will know )

[Bonez]

Bummer mate. On the bright side those donks are brobably a dime a dozen ;).

[BALZYBUELL]

sorry to here that mate,i hope its not to major(bugger)

[skidMark]

cant be too major id say stripped the teeth off the flywheel or similar and now the starter motor cant grab, an initial lock....

but if the motor was fucked the starter wouldnt even turn oer, and for the starter motor to turn over freely (i assume u mean little affort) its not practical to say it lost compression at all four, i would suspect something at start motor end.

[FJRider]

Rest bike on a box (or similar) with rear wheel off the ground, pull out the plug, then try again (in gear)...see WHERE the problem is...
Does it have a kick start ...???

[Wolf]

Ixion:
Push it in gear it does seem to turn over, not too hard to push it in first, though. Pull in the clutch: no change - keeps turning over the engine.

I wound the clutch adjuster out and it still does not feel like I've fully disengaged the clutch when I pull it in.

Skidmark:
It only has one cylinder.

[skidMark]

Ixion:
Push it in gear it does seem to turn over, not too hard to push it in first, though. Pull in the clutch: no change - keeps turning over the engine.

I wound the clutch adjuster out and it still does not feel like I've fully disengaged the clutch when I pull it in.

Skidmark:
It only has one cylinder.

still even if you had blown a hole in a piston you will still have resistance....

hmmm, something has gone bang in ya clutch mate. perhaps a broke clutch basket, doesnt explain the free winding starter though.

i would have to see it first hand, hopefully a kber in hamilton wont mind doing this for ya i would come down if i could but i cant as i am unlicensed sorry. :no:

[scumdog]

still even if you had blown a hole in a piston you will still have resistance....

Crockashit.

[FJRider]

It only has one cylinder.

There's the problem...

Seriously... sounds like clutch problems... plates gone. Drain or remove tank...lay bike on its side with clutch side up... remove cover...and have a look...

[FJRider]

Crockashit.

No need for politeness...

[Smokin]

+1 for camchain letting go.

[Wolf]

There's the problem...
I find it lighter and easier to push than an FJ1200...

Cheers for the advice re checking the clutch (and how to do so.)

[FJRider]

I find it lighter and easier to push than an FJ1200...

Cheers for the advice re checking the clutch (and how to do so.)

Ain't it the truth...

You can do it with the bike upright... but you need to drain the oil out FIRST. Do it that way if the job will be done over a few days or bike cant be left on its side for that long...

[skidMark]

+1 for camchain letting go.


cant be with the clutch issues. :no: but then again with the starter running free? hmmmm....

im actually stumped on this one....

guess we will find out when it in a million bits.

if you dont know what ya doing with engines mate i could always head down at some point and help ya pull her down.

[skidMark]

Crockashit.

resistance, less obviously alot less, but resistance on starter none the less

[FJRider]

Clutch maybe didnt disengage after starting ...???...locked in drive mode...would explain why when clutch is engaged, is NOT having any effect...???

[kiwi cowboy]

cant be with the clutch issues. :no: but then again with the starter running free? hmmmm....

im actually stumped on this one....

guess we will find out when it in a million bits.

if you dont know what ya doing with engines mate i could always head down at some point and help ya pull her down.

do you know whot your doin though? you didnt even know how many cylinders an xt has:laugh::laugh::laugh::jerry:

[FJRider]

resistance, less obviously alot less, but resistance on starter none the less

Crockashit...

the same resistance as after pulling the plug(s) out.... NONE...

[kiwi cowboy]

Clutch maybe didnt disengage after starting ...???...locked in drive mode...would explain why when clutch is engaged, is NOT having any effect...???

Think you getting confused between the starter clutch and the gearbox clutch here maybe

[FJRider]

do you know whot your doin though? you didnt even know how many cylinders an xt has:laugh::laugh::laugh::jerry:

Give him credit... he was only THREE cylinders out... :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[FJRider]

Think you getting confused between the starter clutch and the gearbox clutch here maybe

At this hour... I'm easily confused. I've been Exporting myself...

[kiwi cowboy]

Give him credit... he was only THREE cylinders out... :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

:devil2::devil2:credit noted:devil2:you drink export:Pokey:well you do ride a yamy i suppose:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[FJRider]

Ixion:
Push it in gear it does seem to turn over, not too hard to push it in first, though. Pull in the clutch: no change - keeps turning over the engine.



Skidmark:
It only has one cylinder.

sounds like clutch plates missing... million bits...well a few anyway...

[FJRider]

:devil2::devil2:credit noted:devil2:you drink export:Pokey:well you do ride a yamy i suppose:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Supplied by a client for services above and beyond the call of the timesheet... The least I could do was drink it...

[SlideMoto]

cant be too major id say stripped the teeth off the flywheel or similar and now the starter motor cant grab, an initial lock....

but if the motor was fucked the starter wouldnt even turn oer, and for the starter motor to turn over freely (i assume u mean little affort) its not practical to say it lost compression at all four, i would suspect something at start motor end.


still even if you had blown a hole in a piston you will still have resistance....

hmmm, something has gone bang in ya clutch mate. perhaps a broke clutch basket, doesnt explain the free winding starter though.

i would have to see it first hand, hopefully a kber in hamilton wont mind doing this for ya i would come down if i could but i cant as i am unlicensed sorry. :no:


cant be with the clutch issues. :no: but then again with the starter running free? hmmmm....

im actually stumped on this one....

guess we will find out when it in a million bits.

if you dont know what ya doing with engines mate i could always head down at some point and help ya pull her down.

Ummmm I'd be VERY wary of taking this advise as at least wolf had the nouse to say he doens no whats wrong with it. Sounds like you have even less ofan idea of engines.....lol

[kiwi cowboy]

Supplied by a client for services above and beyond the call of the timesheet... The least I could do was drink it...

:client: ::above and beyond the call:::buggerd::buggerd::whistle:

[Ixion]

Are you sure that when you push it in gear the motor is actually turning - I mean the crankshaft not just the transmission.

If the starter drives through the primary drive (as many do) , I'd be thinking clutch or primary drive failure. Used to be endemic with chain primary drives. The engine is not actually turning at all, all you feel is some clutch resistance.

Could be as major as a snapped transmission shaft, or as minor as a broken woodruffe key. Did it happen as you let out the clutch to take off?

First thing I think is to pull off the primary drive cover. That's pretty simple, basically just undo the screws holding it on (maybe a few other bits to clear away). Novice level , can't really go wrong - you'll need to drain the oil first, when you do, run your fingers over the bottom of the container you drain it into, that may provide some clues. Then you should see exactly what is happening (or not happening)

[Wolf]

Well, haven't taken the plug out (don't actually have a plug spanner) but I can push it in first gear with no effort at all. By rights, in first the compression should lock the wheel and make it impossible to push - I know this from accidentally knocking it into gear in the past and then trying to push it. Under normal circumstances, even after building up some momentum and speed, dropping it into first will lock the wheel and cause it to skid (hence you bump start in second).

Now, at walking pace I can push the bike in first gear with minimal resistance (like I'm pushing it up a slight incline)

It will go into and out of gear easily enough. The clutch is an issue - still will not totally disengage when the lever is pulled all the way in.

It sounds like I have a number of issues.

I'm the first to admit that I know fuck all about the inside of engines. I'll happily attempt repairs to the rest of the bike (and usually have to call "Shiny side up" or Roj to bail me out of tricky bits as they have more tools than I have) but I baulk at working on engines themselves.

I wouldn't even know what to look for if I got the side off.

[Wolf]

Are you sure that when you push it in gear the motor is actually turning - I mean the crankshaft not just the transmission.
No. For all I know, the transmission is doing its own thing without the crank


If the starter drives through the primary drive (as many do) , I'd be thinking clutch or primary drive failure. Used to be endemic with chain primary drives. The engine is not actually turning at all, all you feel is some clutch resistance.
That may well be why I cannot feel any compression from the cylinder. Snapped con rod was a thought I had at the time.


Could be as major as a snapped transmission shaft, or as minor as a broken woodruffe key. Did it happen as you let out the clutch to take off?
Yes. The clutch was almost fully out (I was already starting to roll forward) and there was a loud noise of something going south then the engine died.

[Ixion]

Whatever it is , I doubt that it will be able to be fixed without some degree of stripping of the engine unit. I'm assuming that you can normally start it with the starter with the clutch disengaged? If so, it's not just the clutch release mechanism jammed up.

EDIT: If you put the bike in gear and use the starter motor, does the bike move forward ?

[Wolf]

Whatever it is , I doubt that it will be able to be fixed without some degree of stripping of the engine unit. I'm assuming that you can normally start it with the starter with the clutch disengaged? If so, it's not just the clutch release mechanism jammed up.
Normally starts fine in first with the clutch disengaged (providing the clutch safety switch is not acting up as sometimes happens, forcing me to take it out of first to get the starter to work at all).

Even in neutral the starter sounds like it's running mostly free (sounds a mite noisy to be running totally unencumbered)

[skidMark]

Crockashit...

the same resistance as after pulling the plug(s) out.... NONE...

wrong..... theres a big difference between the starter driving an engine with plugs out / hole in piston , than it spinning free because its teeth are stripped off.

i'm trying to help thier is no need to question my judgement.

get bent.

Ive been working on bikes both personally and chasing it as a career for 3 years, i'm not a total retard.

[Wolf]

EDIT: If you put the bike in gear and use the starter motor, does the bike move forward ?
**A quick experiment later**
The moment I stick it in gear the safety switch disables the starter circuit. Pulling in the clutch does not over-ride that safety at the moment.

Clutch is not disengaging at all when I pull it in - still feels the same and I can hear stuff (transmission, I suspect) moving when I'm pushing it in first. Today, no noticeable difference in effort while pushing it in first with clutch in or out.

[Ixion]

I am strongly thinking either primary drive failure, or maybe a broken crankshaft .

Looking at a fiche for that motor it looks like the starter clutch pinion is part of the primary drive !

You can check whether its engine or drive very simply (simply for me anyway).

On the left hand side engine cover, in the centre, is what looks like a honking big screw head .Right in the centre. Unscrew that (a car wheel nut brace will often have a big screwdriver end on it). Behind it is a big nut. Put a big spanner on the big nut and turn it. Or get your spouse/mate/boyfriend/girlfriend/goat who has a big spanner to do it. That will turn the crankshaft directly. If you feel the usual compression, oof, easier now, compression then that end of the crank is turning and the top end of the engine is OK. Now put the bike in gear. Turn nut again. If bike doesn't try to move forward, primary drive has failed (maybe transmission but unlikely) .

I'd have the primary drive cover off m'self. It can even be done by the roadside.

EDIT. Bloody safety switches. Is why I always disable them

EDITY EDIT: Once you have that big screw hgead thing removed, watch the nut while you hit the starter. If it doesn't turn, primary drive gone.

[Wolf]

And the winners are:


all those who said "broken cam chain".

Everything's turning over but it seems the valve is open and no chain to shut it again - hence zero compression.

Shiny side up arrived just as I was about to try Ixion's diagnostics - we tried them, took the spark plug out and noted piston moving but no compression. Took valve cover off, no valve movement.

Took cam cover off, sprocket but no chain, SSU's trying to fish the chain out of the clutch now.

[Wolf]

Thanks to Shiny side up and Motu, the XT is now running!

SSU, being significantly more ept than I am with engines, managed to pull the chain out and thanks to Motu, I had a perfectly good timing chain in the garage (from the old TT225 he gave me) so SSU put the new (it pretty much was new) timing chain in and the bike is now running fine.

I was expecting the work to be nothing more than an autopsy with a resultant list of things I needed to replace.

Neither SSU nor I expected the bike to be fixed today.

[KiwiRat]

God bless KB eh.

With friends like these.....................................

[Bonez]

Well done all.

[Shiny side up]

Thanks to Shiny side up and Motu, the XT is now running!


But I was forced to make a blood sacrafice this time.

The technical of the problem for those who are interested. The cam chain was so worn that it formed a big smile when you held sideways by 2 ends. It appears to have had sufficent sideways play to step off over the sprocket. I thought it must be broken but when we (eventually - with a blood sacrafice) got the magneto flywheel off (or what ever you call the thing with magnets in it) the chain was unbroken. It was however sitting on the primary drive and efectively bypassing the clutch.

New quote for you.... It is amazing what you can do with a big hammer and a lot of care.

The job was done without dropping the oil out with the bike leaned over to about 45deg.

I wish the XJ was that easy to work on.:done:

[Squiggles]

So it escaped significant valve + piston damage, good stuff... how does the tensioner look?

[Wolf]

So it escaped significant valve + piston damage, good stuff... how does the tensioner look?
Tensioner's fine except a couple of scrapes from the falling chain. As I was just starting to take off neither the bike nor the revs were going fast enough for any real damage.

The engine no longer has the rattle I've been hearing for a while. I thought it might have been tappets in need of adjustment (told ya I'm a fuckin' idiot when it comes to engines) but in retrospect I'd guess it was the cam chain.

Last night when the bike stopped I was expecting to be bussing for a long time while saving up for a long list of needed parts.

I've still got to get some parts - new gasket and a bolt to replace the one that snapped (that's as traditional as the blood sacrifice), but at least I'm not up for major dollars and the bike will run.

Thanks to this afternoon, I'm also more aware of what's inside the engine and how to work on it.

Pluses all 'round.

Cheers to all for the advice, troubleshooting and instructions on how to get inside the engine without draining it first.

[FJRider]

Ive been working on bikes both personally and chasing it as a career for 3 years, i'm not a total retard.

Keep chasing...GOOD LUCK.

And I wasn't trying to suggest you were a total.... :innocent:

[FJRider]

:client: ::above and beyond the call:::buggerd::buggerd::whistle:

Our clients are special... they have money. Have we done any work for you...??? :innocent::innocent::innocent:

[Lias]

Nice save lol.

[MSTRS]

As I was just starting to take off neither the bike nor the revs were going fast enough for any real damage.


Not quite true. Even at idle, there will be sufficient residual engine movement to cause valve damage in many engines. Some engines have enough piston/valve head clearance to survive a cam out of time (however that may be caused). My guess is that yours is one of those. The chain caught up in the lower workings tho...A big bit of luck on your part.
Kudos to SSU for his fixing skills.

[Waylander]

Bloody Yamahas.

[Wolf]

Bloody Yamahas.

:bleh:




.............................

[Wolf]

Not quite true. Even at idle, there will be sufficient residual engine movement to cause valve damage in many engines. Some engines have enough piston/valve head clearance to survive a cam out of time (however that may be caused). My guess is that yours is one of those. The chain caught up in the lower workings tho...A big bit of luck on your part.
Kudos to SSU for his fixing skills.
I don't think my bike is high performance/high compression enough for that. The XT engine has a reputation for being "bulletproof" - largely because the tolerances are so wide and you can set the timing with a calendar.

I think I'd've been totally fucked if I had a finely-tuned high-performance engine like in a sprots bike or top-of-the-line MXer - one of those beasties that have to be torn down and rebuilt every so many hours of riding.

I'm going to have to give it a complete oil change and clean/replace the filter as there will be a bit of loose metal in there. It's due for a change anyway, so no biggie there.

SSU was brilliant - if a tad unorthodox (watching someone take to the guts of your bike with a large hammer is a harrowing experience but we did manage to get the rotor assembly off eventually).

He made a blood sacrifice to the deities of motorcycle maintenance and snapped one of the bolts for the side cover - it's gratifying to see that he did things "by the book".

[Motu]

Bugger - lucky I didn't hear your bike running the other day,or else I might of said something was wrong.The reason the TT had a new chain was because it broke one....and bent a valve.So although you had a nasty breakdown,you had a lucky one too.Good to hear the bits are coming in handy....that's why I passed it onto you.Do you want me to disembowel a stray cat to divine your next motorcycle problem?

[Wolf]

Bugger - lucky I didn't hear your bike running the other day,or else I might of said something was wrong.The reason the TT had a new chain was because it broke one....and bent a valve.
Hmmmm, I did did have a lucky escape.


So although you had a nasty breakdown,you had a lucky one too.
In more ways than one - lucky I didn't do more damage and lucky the TT did snap the chain so there was a nice new one in the parts.


Good to hear the bits are coming in handy....that's why I passed it onto you.
Speedo sender, timing chain, seat (temporarily while I repair the XT one), rear wheel (once to get me mobile enough to take my rear wheel in for repairs) - it's proving to be very helpful.


Do you want me to disembowel a stray cat to divine your next motorcycle problem?
No need, there're few around here I can disembowel if needed (gladly).

Cheers, dude.