TradeMe manuals being sold for $50 are from the public domain for free

[theporkbonekid]

Greetings to all fellow bikers, just remember that most manuals for classic motorcycles are free in the public domain. There is a foreigner that has entered our shores from down south who is taking advantage of a loop hole and is down loading PDF files. Printing, binding for $5 then selling them to joe public for $50. TradeMe has removed his endorsement and investigations have began. Honda and Suzuki not impressed...Stay tuned...

[xwhatsit]

I'm not clued-up with all of this copyright stuff, but I didn't know there was an issue with selling stuff that is in the public domain -- I mean, second-hand book shops seem to be still able to sell Shakespeare plays OK.

I know in the world of open-source software, it's quite alright to sell open-source software at a price, especially if it's put onto a CD or something, as basically what you're doing is charging for the cost of the CD and distribution. That's what these guys might be saying -- sure, the text is public domain and free, but we're printing it and binding it so you can have a physical copy, and printing and binding costs money -- but $50 is excessive.

Seems like a bit of a rort, but I don't think it's fundamentally illegal, if the texts are really public domain... is it?

[theporkbonekid]

Correct it is not illegal to use the public domain for public use. But to resell these items at a huge profit is unethical. There is a trademe trader down south who is a foreigner to our shores, taking advantage of a loop hole. I know HONDA is in litagation and Suzuki is about to do the same. Be different if this trader told you he was using the public domain. He even had trademe endorsement, until they got the hard word. Trademe do not bow down to anyone but the Police & Courts....:2guns:

[CookMySock]

The bottom line is the license, and law, fully allow him to do this. If the publisher had half a brain then they would use an appropriate license.

A word to the wise, though, quit complaining and go explore some loopholes yourself. Lots of people make money by exploring loopholes, and quite legally too, so don't cut your own arms off so quickly. Put some money in your pocket!

Steve

[theporkbonekid]

No body is complaining, just educating fellow bikers. You make your own decision....

[theporkbonekid]

It is wise to be thought a fool, than to open ones MOUTH and remove all doubt...A true word to the wise...:mellow:

[oldskool]

Greetings to all fellow bikers, just remember that most manuals for classic motorcycles are free in the public domain.
Thanks porkies, I didn't know you could download manuals for free, I've looked in the past but obviously not hard enuff! Bought original manuals or found answers on Thumpertalk... and surprisingly and disappointingly so, not a lot of mechanical know how from here? Is it because the real deals don't contribute or is this forum just full of market driven bunnies?

[theporkbonekid]

http://motorbikemanuals.blogspot.com/2008/09/download-free-yamaha-manuals.html

Try for a few freebees, and yes I tend to agree with your comments...Cheers

[Tank]

The bottom line is the license, and law, fully allow him to do this. If the publisher had half a brain then they would use an appropriate license.

A word to the wise, though, quit complaining and go explore some loopholes yourself. Lots of people make money by exploring loopholes, and quite legally too, so don't cut your own arms off so quickly. Put some money in your pocket!

Steve

complete and utter bullshit!!!!!!

The manuals are covered by copyright law - you are not allowed to takes oters work and sell it.

[theporkbonekid]

Correct....Thanks mate

[The Pastor]

The bottom line is the license, and law, fully allow him to do this. If the publisher had half a brain then they would use an appropriate license.

A word to the wise, though, quit complaining and go explore some loopholes yourself. Lots of people make money by exploring loopholes, and quite legally too, so don't cut your own arms off so quickly. Put some money in your pocket!

Steve
good lord........ every day

[CookMySock]

Nope, if they are "free in the public domain" then they are just that. YOU CAN DO ANYTHING YOU LIKE WITH THEM.

The public domain license is a completely stupid license, for reasons like this. There are much much better licenses to use, and it costs nothing. Go figure.

Gee you idiots get all heated up over the tiniest little tidbit that you can possibly rake up. Don't you have anything interesting to go and do?

Steve

[EJK]

I went into Colemans Suzuki parts shop and asked for the price of the Owner's Manual for the FXR150...

They answered... $125

[xwhatsit]

Not every manual is in the public domain -- as theporkbonekid said, a lot of really old ones are (I think many were never copyrighted in the first place), and certainly the Haynes, Clymer etc. manuals aren't in public domain (or won't be for another 50 years or so when the copyright expires).

No, I agree with what you're saying theporkbonekid, it is a bit lame that they're making that large a profit margin and not informing people that the manuals are in fact free. I wouldn't have a problem if they had said, the manuals are available free from here, but we've printed and bound a copy for you, here's the price.

[CookMySock]

Not every manual is in the public domainOf course.


it is a bit lame that they're making that large a profit margin and not informing people that the manuals are in fact free. I wouldn't have a problem if they had said, the manuals are available free from here, but we've printed and bound a copy for you, here's the price.Yeah it IS a bit lame, but its also good business, and more power to them I reckon.

I'm always hearing from some angry brokeass individual about some well-off prick scamming money out of something perfectly legal, but the fact is, that is the reason why they are an angry brokeass individual, and the other person is a well-off prick.

I can go down to the plant shop too, and buy a fucken packet of tomato seeds and plant the the cunts, and make 100 times my money back selling seedlings. SO FUCKING WHAT???

Get a clue.

Steve

[theporkbonekid]

Nope, if they are "free in the public domain" then they are just that. YOU CAN DO ANYTHING YOU LIKE WITH THEM.

The public domain license is a completely stupid license, for reasons like this. There are much much better licenses to use, and it costs nothing. Go figure.

Gee you idiots get all heated up over the tiniest little tidbit that you can possibly rake up. Don't you have anything interesting to go and do?

Steve
Only you are getting heated up!!! and we know why......be humble my friend

[Tank]

I can go down to the plant shop too, and buy a fucken packet of tomato seeds and plant the the cunts, and make 100 times my money back selling seedlings. SO FUCKING WHAT???

Get a clue.

Steve


Hey - if you did that you could buy a better bike !

[theporkbonekid]

I went into Colemans Suzuki parts shop and asked for the price of the Owner's Manual for the FXR150...

They answered... $125
Yeah, I think dangerousbastard's family own this store, not quite 100% sure...

[Hoon]

I see no problem with this (assuming it's not copyrighted).

If I offer an item worth $1 to you for $10 and you accept it, who's fault is it?

Say I value my free time at $20 per hour. If I estimate that it'll take more than 2.5 hrs to d/l, print and then bind a manual, it'd be better for me to pay someone else $50 to do it.

I use the same logic to put the lawnmower man out of a job. Takes me 30 mins to mow my lawns which he charges $35 for. I would have to value my time at $70 p/h before getting him around again (ignoring mower/maintenance etc).

If I was super rich and valued my time at $100+ p/h then I could easily see how $50 would be a good deal. But if I was jobless or a younger person with ample time then I'd have no issue wasting a whole day to save me a few $$$$.

Seems to me like more of a buyer problem than a seller/trademe issue.

AAA++++ GREAT TRADER - HIGHLY RECOMMEND

[oldskool]

Say I value my free time at $20 per hour.
Sheesh everyone is tripping over the meaning of free!

If my 'free time' was worth $100,
I'd be an unscrupulous bastard
I'd be absurdly rich
I wouldn't need to buy a $50 stolen manual to repair something I'd give my $60/hr 'technician' for a monthly 'service' (and his free time would probably only cost a slab of Lion Red for the job!)

[theporkbonekid]

I see no problem with this (assuming it's not copyrighted).

If I offer an item worth $1 to you for $10 and you accept it, who's fault is it?

Say I value my free time at $20 per hour. If I estimate that it'll take more than 2.5 hrs to d/l, print and then bind a manual, it'd be better for me to pay someone else $50 to do it.

I use the same logic to put the lawnmower man out of a job. Takes me 30 mins to mow my lawns which he charges $35 for. I would have to value my time at $70 p/h before getting him around again (ignoring mower/maintenance etc).

If I was super rich and valued my time at $100+ p/h then I could easily see how $50 would be a good deal. But if I was jobless or a younger person with ample time then I'd have no issue wasting a whole day to save me a few $$$$.

Seems to me like more of a buyer problem than a seller/trademe issue.

AAA++++ GREAT TRADER - HIGHLY RECOMMEND
And we all Know what assume means...it makes an ASS out of U and ME...You need to read earlier posts before you assume...

[theporkbonekid]

Some people are thinking I am poor? There are many reasons to want a manual. Perhaps I am rich because I learn things and educate others how to save their money when something is available for free.:love:

[nallac]

Hey - if you did that you could buy a better bike !


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[theporkbonekid]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Hee..Hee...Hee:first:

[xwhatsit]

And we all Know what assume means...it makes an ASS out of U and ME...You need to read earlier posts before you assume...

I think his assumption was correct -- if it's in the public domain, then it isn't really copyrighted.

@DB: Yeah, sure, he can do what he likes, and the tomato analogy too wrong. But -- and you should understand this, being a user of open-source software too (it wouldn't be sustainable without proper acknowledgements) -- I think it's good karma to be as transparent as possible when it comes to this sort of stuff.

Certainly nothing to involve the police or Trademe about, though.

[FROSTY]

300 odd frikkin pages -copied /bound for $50 sheesh

[riffer]

300 odd frikkin pages -copied /bound for $50 sheeshExactly.

At 16c a page, they're hardly creaming it.

Before you hassle people for this, try and actually do it yourself. Shitty way to make a living doing one-offs I reckon.

[theporkbonekid]

Such a shame that my orginal posting has been edited, makes you wonder if this trader is a member of this forum. e-classicbike.c is the rogue traders name. I will not post or share knowledge on this site if the MODERATORS continue to censor information that my fellow members deserve. A pity that the moderators do allow fucken abuse, fucken slander and allow members to call other members fucken names...:angry:

[theporkbonekid]

Exactly.

At 16c a page, they're hardly creaming it.

Before you hassle people for this, try and actually do it yourself. Shitty way to make a living doing one-offs I reckon.
My learned friend.....Just take one of his manuals to a print shop. I can get the local shop to print his manual for $15....And Sell it for $50...Profit margin for me 200%....Sure you could do it your way....But there are many ways to skin a cat. I have only shown you one...Wake up the coffee's burning....

[theporkbonekid]

My learned friend.....Just take one of his manuals to a print shop. I can get the local shop to print his manual for $15....And Sell it for $50...Profit margin for me 200%....Sure you could do it your way....But there are many ways to skin a cat. I have only shown you one...Wake up the coffee's burning....
And......no body is hassling anyone....Only you hassling me about spreading the truth...Get your facts right before you slander anyone!!!

[theporkbonekid]

I think his assumption was correct -- if it's in the public domain, then it isn't really copyrighted.

@DB: Yeah, sure, he can do what he likes, and the tomato analogy too wrong. But -- and you should understand this, being a user of open-source software too (it wouldn't be sustainable without proper acknowledgements) -- I think it's good karma to be as transparent as possible when it comes to this sort of stuff.

Certainly nothing to involve the police or Trademe about, though.
Another one eyed comment, with only tunnel vision....

[Katman]

Regarding copyright - I think we can safely assume that these manuals are most definately subject to copyright.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-accessories/Manuals-magazines/photos/a-183728664/p-73527670.htm

Click on the cover picture and look at the bottom right corner.

[imdying]

I wouldn't have thought that setting up yourself in business using pirated goods was the smartest thing to do :rofl: What is this, freakin China??

[Badjelly]

...just remember that most manuals for classic motorcycles are free in the public domain...

What is your basis for making this statement? Are you saying they were never subject to copyright (sounds unlikely to me), that the copyright has expired, or that the copyright has been explicitly removed by the holder?

[NighthawkNZ]

What is your basis for making this statement? Are you saying they were never subject to copyright (sounds unlikely to me), that the copyright has expired, or that the copyright has been explicitly removed by the holder?

Copyrights do expire, and or the holder of the copyright can put in to Public Domain.

[vifferman]

The manuals ARE copyrighted, but most/many of them have been available on various websites/forums/blogs for some time, as illegal scanned PDFs. I'd say that whoever the TardMe trader is, they have latched onto one of the sites that has gathered together all/most/many of the manuals (or at least links to them) in once place, and is printing and binding them. They are in the main not, and never have been, public domain manuals. Some may be, but generally they are not.
TradeMe either don't know or don't care about this.

It's not illegal for someone to charge for making copies of, and binding any form of printed matter, provided it's not copyright, or they have permission/ a licence from the owner of the copyright to do so. They can charge whatever they think someone will pay for it. It's no different to selling anything else.

[FROSTY]

Such a shame that my orginal posting has been edited, makes you wonder if this trader is a member of this forum. e-classicbike.c is the rogue traders name. I will not post or share knowledge on this site if the MODERATORS continue to censor information that my fellow members deserve. A pity that the moderators do allow fucken abuse, fucken slander and allow members to call other members fucken names...:angry:
Saying stuff like that is just gonna get peoples backs up.
Your point is taken -someone is making money selling copies of manuals.
Please get MY point.
The times I need a manual I'm either in the middle of the pits at a race meeting or I'm standing in my gargre far from a puter in either case.
In both cases I want the manual in my hand there n then.
In both cases I believe that the $50 I paid for hard copies of the manual was money well spent.
Incidently Im not really a puter person so Ive bought genuine Haynes and Clymers from tech books.

What I don't quite understand is why you are upset that someone is making money by thinking laterally.

[The Pastor]

Exactly.

At 16c a page, they're hardly creaming it.

Before you hassle people for this, try and actually do it yourself. Shitty way to make a living doing one-offs I reckon.
try 4c a page mate

[The Pastor]

alot of the old bike manuals will have expired copy rights.- you dont find the new bike ones on the site that was linked to

[Ixion]

Abandonware. The original publishers are long out of business, and anyone who has technically come into possession of any remaining copyright is completely uninterested . (Not that all those listed , or any of them, may be in that category. Just saying, it exists)

[The Stranger]

alot of the old bike manuals will have expired copy rights.

They expire?
After how long please?

[Ixion]

50 years. Either after the death of the author (in the case of a "normal" book), or , more probably in the case of manuals, 50 years after first publication. ref Copyright Act 1994.

[The Pastor]

50 years. Either after the death of the author (in the case of a "normal" book), or , more probably in the case of manuals, 50 years after first publication. ref Copyright Act 1994.
I thought it was dependent on how long the copyright was purchased for?

[Katman]

http://www.copyright.co.nz/FAQs/

[Tank]

I thought it was dependent on how long the copyright was purchased for?

copyright is a right - you dont actually purchase anything.

[nodrog]

http://www.copyright.co.nz/FAQs/

4. How long does copyright last for?
The author’s copyright lasts for 50 years from the end of the year of the author’s death. The publisher’s copyright in the typographical arrangement of the work lasts for 25 years from the end of the year in which the edition was first published.

[Number One]

Wouldn't mess around with Copyright stuff...especially on things NZ based, big big focus for NZ as our economy is really reliant on our ability (as a small and isolated country) to ensure our innovation and IP is protected. The IP police don't mess around - you get caught you in trouble.

[The Stranger]

Wouldn't mess around with Copyright stuff...especially on things NZ based, big big focus for NZ as our economy is really reliant on our ability (as a small and isolated country) to ensure our innovation and IP is protected. The IP police don't mess around - you get caught you in trouble.

Really?
How much of our economy is reliant on copyright?
Are cows and sheep and logs copyright?

[The Stranger]

Wouldn't mess around with Copyright stuff...especially on things NZ based, big big focus for NZ as our economy is really reliant on our ability (as a small and isolated country) to ensure our innovation and IP is protected. The IP police don't mess around - you get caught you in trouble.

A LOT of complete bullshit is blindly propagated about the effects of copyright infringement.
Tim O'Reilly of the publishing house O'Reilly & Associates has an interesting perspective on the matter here (http://tim.oreilly.com/pub/a/p2p/2002/12/11/piracy.html). But hey, what would he know?

How did Micro$oft win the OS war? Better product perhaps?
Make an OS and programs so trivial to copy that everyone will do so. When they then become legit for running a business etc what do they buy? They buy what they know.
Remind me again, how did piracy hurt Micro$oft?

[Number One]

Really?
How much of our economy is reliant on copyright?
Are cows and sheep and logs copyright?

Firstly...I am not an economist and frankly it makes me a little bit sleepy to even think too much about it all so in terms of 'arguing the points' I am not the right person to take this one on. But since you have quoted me I feel I must respond with my take on things.

Secondly - 'reliant on' was a poor choice of words in the context of our existing economy but in terms of our future it isn't. While our economy is 'commodity based' those commodities aren't going to GROW the economy much further than where we have already gotten to (in fact we are going backwards - especially now that countries are getting all carbon footprint conscious on it') AND check the falling prices....whereas 'innovation' can and does grow economies. Hello China, Japan blah blah blah

As I said I am NOT an economist and so I am not the best person for you to have this to and fro debate with - and I have other things to be doing with my time than getting into an online battle about a topic I am not enamoured with.

All I know is what, through the course of my current employment I have been made aware of and exposed to. That has taught and shown me that there are a raft of issues and areas that you might not think on the face of it would or could effect the economic performance of a country but which solid research and economic indicators prove they do (IP or 'INNOVATION' is right up there)

Oh and btw - New Zealands Cheif Economist is not prone to blindly propogating bullshit.

But hey, again I am not an economist...maybe you are?

Either way you are entitled to your take on things and I am entitled to mine. What I can say is that when IP/copyright law can and is enforced it hurts those that shit all over it. I have seen examples of it....of course I can't comment on them cos that would be bad and against the sectors code of conduct but really it does hurt those that fuck around with it.

[The Stranger]

Firstly...I am not an economist and frankly it makes me a little bit sleepy to even think too much about it all so in terms of 'arguing the points' I am not the right person to take this one on. But since you have quoted me I feel I must respond with my take on things.

Secondly - 'reliant on' was a poor choice of words in the context of our existing economy but in terms of our future it isn't. While our economy is 'commodity based' those commodities aren't going to GROW the economy much further than where we have already gotten to (in fact we are going backwards - especially now that countries are getting all carbon footprint conscious on it') AND check the falling prices....whereas 'innovation' can and does grow economies. Hello China, Japan blah blah blah

As I said I am NOT an economist and so I am not the best person for you to have this to and fro debate with - and I have other things to be doing with my time than getting into an online battle about a topic I am not enamoured with.

All I know is what, through the course of my current employment I have been made aware of and exposed to. That has taught and shown me that there are a raft of issues and areas that you might not think on the face of it would or could effect the economic performance of a country but which solid research and economic indicators prove they do (IP or 'INNOVATION' is right up there)

Oh and btw - New Zealands Cheif Economist is not prone to blindly propogating bullshit.

But hey, again I am not an economist...maybe you are?

Either way you are entitled to your take on things and I am entitled to mine. What I can say is that when IP/copyright law can and is enforced it hurts those that shit all over it. I have seen examples of it....of course I can't comment on them cos that would be bad and against the sectors code of conduct but really it does hurt those that fuck around with it.

Sure, it is obvious by the ill concieved response that you don't wish to substantiate your claims. However may I suggest that should you not wish to, perhaps it would be better that you not make spurious claims - regardless of who your employer is.

[Number One]

Sure, it is obvious by the ill concieved response that you don't wish to substantiate your claims. However may I suggest that should you not wish to, perhaps it would be better that you not make spurious claims - regardless of who your employer is.
:rolleyes: whatever. I don't have to enter into a pissing contest with anyone on here it really ain't that important to me after all this is just KB

AND btw way you can 'suggest' all you like and I can ignore your 'suggestion' all I like - isn't the internet wonderful like that :msn-wink:

[doc]

A word to the wise, though, quit complaining and go explore some loopholes yourself. Lots of people make money by exploring loopholes, and quite legally too, so don't cut your own arms off so quickly. Put some money in your pocket!

Steve

Argh ... Bottom feeding principles n proud of it....:sick: aye.

[The Stranger]

AND btw way you can 'suggest' all you like and I can ignore your 'suggestion' all I like - isn't the internet wonderful like that :msn-wink:

By all means ignore my constructive suggestions all you like and continue to post examples like how the Chinese economy is booming due to innovation as support for your position against copyright infringment.

The only thing they are innovative at is copyright and tradmark infringment.

You're a crack up, keep it up.

[riffer]

The only thing they are innovative at is copyright and tradmark infringment.

I do recall however, Noel, that the same arguments were used against the Japanese not that long ago.

But I do think that the Chinese are in no way as innovative as the Japanese, or even the Koreans. Not great thinkers as a country, the Chinese.

[Number One]

But I do think that the Chinese are in no way as innovative as the Japanese, or even the Koreans.
Korea for sure with innovation Riffer.

To The Stranger. Feel free to laugh at my ill conceived comments - as I said I am not an economist, and don't profess to know it all (unlike yourself) nor do I really care much for this subject hence I don't have the energy or inclination to go further into detail about what I have witnessed through the course of my work (aside from the fact that I could get in the shit for it).

Your responses to me though I must say are typically ignorant of the point that I was actually making in the first instance. Instead you latched onto the inaccuracies in my seond argument which while related were not my original point and as I have said so many times now I AM NOT AN EXPERT AND DO NOT PROFESS TO BE...but good on you for playing the 'I'm the bigger smarty pants and so can piss further than you' card.

My point was that copyright infringement costs those that ignore it and it damages economies by undermining businesses and that NZ is tightening up on enforcing it as it's key for our teeny tiny little economy to ensure those with good ideas be able to effectively protect, manage and exploit their IP.

Given that I am not an expert I thought it prudent to supply you with some reading matter from those that are. In here you will also find some further explanation about why this bullshit does matter.

http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/ContentTopicSummary____24678.aspx

http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/MultipageDocumentTOC____24765.aspx

[The Stranger]

I AM NOT AN EXPERT AND DO NOT PROFESS TO BE...

Now I am really intrigued.
If you don't know shit why do you continue argue?
You really should stick to subjects you something about like WIFE duties.

[Number One]

You really should stick to subjects you something about like WIFE duties.
:rofl: ooh that's sharp :msn-wink:

[Badjelly]

But I do think that the Chinese are in no way as innovative as the Japanese, or even the Koreans. Not great thinkers as a country, the Chinese.

And small hands.

[Katman]

Completely off topic (well, the small hands comment got me thinking about toilet training) but...........

I have a friend who runs a textile manufacturing business in Shanghai who was at a restaurant one night (perfectly fine looking restaurant from front-of-house) and asked to use the toilet. He was pointed to a door which lead into the kitchen but couldn't see from there where the toilet was. He went back to ask for further instructions and was lead by the hand back into the kitchen where the chef promptly kicked away a cover over a hole in the middle of the kitchen floor.

I shit you not.

[xwhatsit]

...where the chef promptly kicked away a cover over a hole in the middle of the kitchen floor.

I shit you not.
Where they then whipped out cameras and published photos of the dumb gwai-lou on the internet for their fellow Chinese to ridicule :niceone: