A car problem...

[MSTRS]

I tried an Aussie Holden site...what a prick of a 'forum' to try and post in, so easier to ask here...
We have a VS Commodore with the V6 Ecotech engine. Car has been fine, but the other morning, after sitting all night, when the key was turned the radiator fan came on and the engine would turn over but not start. Some investigation suggested that the injectors were not firing. Spark at plugs though. Disconnect battery, remove computer and check for damage inside. Nothing. Reconnect battery, still the same - turn over, no fire. Probably the CAS? Yep, says an auto electrician. Hmmm...easier to try another computer (if I can borrow one) so disconnect the battery again, pull out the existing comp and look for another. 2 days - can't find one. Start thinking about that fan going when cold. Thinking I'd found the temp sensor I pull off the wire (was actually the gauge feed). Reconnect computer and battery and turn on the key. Good, no fan. Engine starts just fine as always. So reconnected it thinking that all would die. Then I discover the temp sensor not what I'd thought. And the engine starts everytime. All that has changed is the battery was disconnected for 24hours or more.
What is going on?

[crazefox]

exposed wire maybe. Or faulty earth on temp sender?

[cowpoos]

I tried an Aussie Holden site...what a prick of a 'forum' to try and post in, so easier to ask here...
We have a VS Commodore with the V6 Ecotech engine. Car has been fine, but the other morning, after sitting all night, when the key was turned the radiator fan came on and the engine would turn over but not start. Some investigation suggested that the injectors were not firing. Spark at plugs though. Disconnect battery, remove computer and check for damage inside. Nothing. Reconnect battery, still the same - turn over, no fire. Probably the CAS? Yep, says an auto electrician. Hmmm...easier to try another computer (if I can borrow one) so disconnect the battery again, pull out the existing comp and look for another. 2 days - can't find one. Start thinking about that fan going when cold. Thinking I'd found the temp sensor I pull off the wire (was actually the gauge feed). Reconnect computer and battery and turn on the key. Good, no fan. Engine starts just fine as always. So reconnected it thinking that all would die. Then I discover the temp sensor not what I'd thought. And the engine starts everytime. All that has changed is the battery was disconnected for 24hours or more.
What is going on?

Hmmm...don't know.

But...if I were you..I would PM hdtboy.aka gav...used to work on holdens for a holden franchise..and makes alot of sense till you buy him a few beers. [he's a mechanic]

[yungatart]

Thanks Poos...blardy car!!!!:angry2:

[Quasievil]

Hmmm...don't know.



Now thats a First people !!

[Delerium]

disconnecting power may have reset the cars ecu and sorted the problem

[MSTRS]

exposed wire maybe. Or faulty earth on temp sender?

Perhaps. But the only wire I touched was one to a capillary? tube that feeds to the temperature gauge in the dash. The sensor that talks to the computer appears to be on the valley, behind the thermostat.

disconnecting power may have reset the cars ecu and sorted the problem
This has also been suggested by another auto sparky. I can't understand why 10 minutes disconnected or 24+hrs disconnected would make a difference, but he assures me that there is a time limit memory in the ecu. ie leave the power off for long enough and it will clear itself.

Trouble with these theories is that I'm not left with answers and am hesitant to trust the car will behave.

[Static]

basically the engine ecu would have had a fault code pop up that it though was worthy of not letting the car start and stores it untill it is taken to a dealership or the like that fix the problem and clear the code from the ecu but disconnecting the battery for long enough in theory should clear any fault codes stored. well this is how audi's work anyways, id suggest take it to a holden dealer and get them to check for any fault codes?

[cs363]

disconnecting power may have reset the cars ecu and sorted the problem


I'd say this is most likely and from the symptoms described the original fault was probably from a faulty sensor.
If you have a problem again check the trouble codes on the ECU, that will pinpoint the problem. Heres a list of codes:http://www.aussieholden.com/forum2/showthread.php?t=239

How to read the codes here: http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/aldl160/vn_aldl.htm (I believe the VS uses the same 12 pin connector for the Diagnostic port, if it's different from the one in this link don't use these instructions!)

[1 Free Man]

say no more my son You have a Holden!! there's your answer on a nut shell.
Go trade it on a FORD. :clap:

[no-coast-punk]

Sounds like an immobilizer problem. Those keys (after a certain year, which I'm assuming yours is) have a radio transponder in them that talks to the car. The keys are also uniquely coded to a particular ECU. Which is why swapping another computer won't work.

GM's rolling code algorithm SUCKS and they sometimes lose synch. Doing a hard reset (no power for a few hours) can bring things back in line. The ECU can actually draw enough power off capacitors and what not inside the car to keep memory for over an hour with no battery.

GM's immobilizer allows everything to run except the fuel system. The fans coming on is part of a default failure mode. Did you notice if the mileage in the cluster had been replaced by "- - - - - -" That's also a good indicator of a hardware fault.

I would have your battery/alternator load tested. Typically these weird things happen when system voltage gets a bit low. A car with a marginal charging system gets parked for a few days, first time the ECU starts it up may see 8 or 9 volts and have the internal memory scrambled as a result.

It was probably a one time fluke.

If the charging system checks out ok, and the car never sits for more than 48 hours or so between drives. And it still does this. I would have the transponder ring in the ignition cylinder checked out.

[MSTRS]

That sounds almost right NCP. Except there was plenty of power in the battery, and not 9 hours before the car had just been Napier - Manfield and back. I realise that any fault code has been wiped by having no power to the ecu, so I can't get it checked by a dealer, which is why I hope you are right with that 'one time thing'.
This morning all is well. Let's hope I don't get a call later from Yungatart "That bloody car..."

[no-coast-punk]

A weak alternator or battery doesn't care how much the car is driven. A dead cell in a battery will cause the max. voltage the thing can hold to be ~11v. A battery with a dead cell can still generate sufficient cranking amperage and the car will start normally. However to create this amperage the battery will have dig deeper into its reserve power and system voltage may drop below 9v even though the starter is getting plenty of amperage and the car seems to be cranking normally. That low voltage can play hell on computer memory. Same situation with a weak alternator. If the voltage regulator has been borked, the system will never get above 11v no matter how long the car is driven. The car will also not demonstrate any of the classic "low battery" starting systems. A big chunk of weird computer problems I have ever dealt with can be traced back to charging/battery problems at some level. Like... most dead fuel injectors die because they overheat. They overheat because they aren't getting sufficient voltage and have to draw more current to do their thing. Have the alternator and battery load tested. Every car with a battery more than 2 years old that I touch for any reason gets a load test for this reason.

Also, make sure that the alternator is tested for a failed diode. This is an easy test if you have access to a multimeter that can read A/C voltage. Take an A/C reading across both battery terminals with the car running. Anything more than about .05VAC is too much. I've seen cars running over 1 volt of A/C voltage that started just fine, but had all sorts of intermittent drivability problems due to memory getting corrupted.

The bottom line is that modern electronics are EXTREMELY sensitive to voltage fluctuations. Many of the old assumptions about 12v electrical systems no longer hold true. A battery/alternator issue these days will cause problems LONG before the lights get dim when you try and start the car.

I remember dealing with a Ducati 999R once. The owner had the frame powder coated a different color. One of the ground straps contact points hadn't been prepared properly. This lead to a 0.5 volt drop on the ground side of the electrical. This means all the electrical was running .5v lower than it should have been. The bike had all kinds of strange issues until the grounding issue was cleaned up.

Probably 70% of the crank/no start cars I deal with have 0 fault codes in the computer. The cars that do have faults stored were cars that died while driving. Most computers do ZERO fault code monitoring during the first few seconds of run time. This is because most engines do strange things on startup that would otherwise set faults. Constant on computer memory is also expensive and creates other problems. The very basic computer routines to make the engine start and run are always going. The routines for fault detection actually need to be "booted up" just like your home PC.

[MSTRS]

Battery etc have been checked and are all good.
Holden specialist technician believes the immobiliser was triggered by an incomplete circuit between the key and ecu. He thinks the key is OK, so I have replaced the metal contact shroud around the ignition switch.
Now it's finger's crossed that has fixed the problem.

[no-coast-punk]

Excellent.

Sounds like the man knows what he's doing.

Lemme know how it turns out. It's nice knowing if I'm right... or an ignorant windbag.

[Trumpess]

Battery etc have been checked and are all good.
Holden specialist technician believes the immobiliser was triggered by an incomplete circuit between the key and ecu. He thinks the key is OK, so I have replaced the metal contact shroud around the ignition switch.
Now it's finger's crossed that has fixed the problem.

I have the same kind of car as you MSTRS.
I havent had to replace the metal surround on the ignition yet.
If you still have problems, I would get a second opinion on the key.
As soon as the battery in the key units starts failing it plays merry hell on the car. I have had to replace my key unit twice now since owning her, and unfortunately only a dealership can do this as the new key unit needs to be retuned to the computer chip. A right pain in the arse if you ask me!

Also, just thinking about the fan coming on when you turned the key, if who ever used the car last can remember, when it was turned off, was the fan going at the time? The reason I ask, maybe that was the last thing the computerchip remembers before something failed. So when you turned her over, the car was starting off where she finished because of the failure.
I have noticed a couple of times with mine, when the car was stopped with the fan going and say half an hour or so later when she was restarted the fan would start on ignition but would stop almost immediately once the computer chip sorted itself out. Dirty contacts maybe?

I hope you find your problem and hope its not costly. Good luck.

[FROSTY]

Mate Ive had this happen a few times before with cars on the yard. Its almost every time turned out to be a worn out key. The good news is that nowadays its only about $120 to get a replacement key.
Hey Trumpess. Good news for you too. You DONT need to go to Holden . The bigger locksmiths now have uncoded blanks and can cut/code a key for you .

[Trumpess]

Mate Ive had this happen a few times before with cars on the yard. Its almost every time turned out to be a worn out key. The good news is that nowadays its only about $120 to get a replacement key.
Hey Trumpess. Good news for you too. You DONT need to go to Holden . The bigger locksmiths now have uncoded blanks and can cut/code a key for you .


Thats excellent news Frosty .... thanks :2thumbsup

[MSTRS]

I have the same kind of car as you MSTRS.
I havent had to replace the metal surround on the ignition yet.
If you still have problems, I would get a second opinion on the key.



Mate Ive had this happen a few times before with cars on the yard. Its almost every time turned out to be a worn out key.

Point noted, thanks. The current (sic) key seems to be fine, in that the little metal contact is still ball shaped and not flat/worn on the contact point. And it operates the central locking as well as it ever did.
The ignition contact strip was the older 2 piece type and had appeared to have lost its 'spring', so now it has the newer complete circle type.

[bull]

Try justcommodores.com.au (http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/) for all your commodore questions mate - has always served me well.

[MSTRS]

That looks the shizz. I'd better bookmark that one. Not like the site I mentioned in my first post.

[FROSTY]

Point noted, thanks. The current (sic) key seems to be fine, in that the little metal contact is still ball shaped and not flat/worn on the contact point. And it operates the central locking as well as it ever did.
The ignition contact strip was the older 2 piece type and had appeared to have lost its 'spring', so now it has the newer complete circle type.
Sorry to sound like a pedantic prick--ohh hang on I am a pedantic....
Trust me here mate I've had keys that look just fine and fire up all the instruments and do all the lock/unlock functions. But no go on starting the car.
One total B%$%$ would even start the friggin car but then it would die again. Then I used the spare key and bingo she's alive again.

[Tony W]

CAS problems can be intermittent. My family's VL and VR would sometimes not go particularly when warm. New CAS in each fixed them.
Just keep it in mind.

[MSTRS]

The CAS's on the earlier Buick motors have a rep for being unreliable. Not so with the Ecotech versions. It was not the CAS, although it was suspected at the beginning of this saga.

[barty5]

had this happen on our VZ we had finally after 22000ks and a list of other electrical faults 5 of which they never fixed i managed to get holden to give me a swap in to a new SS-V Ve model no probs at all with this one after 30000ks. VY and VZs had a lot of electrical probs

[MSTRS]

@#$%#@^!!!
Just done it again. Tried several times. No go. Used the key to lock, unlock. Still no go. Left it and talked to a Holden mechanic who told me to find and pull the fuse on the BCM, or failing that, disconnect the battery for a while to clear the ECM. Since I had to unlock the car to pull the bonnet release, I thought 'No harm in trying to start once more'. Damn thing started fine.
Maybe it is the key playing up?

[notme]

Silly question, but have you tried the spare key?

[MSTRS]

What's a spare key?

[notme]

Ah.

cos it does indeed sound like the ECU thinks the engine should be disabled.....only real way to see if the prob is on the car or key side is to try another key.

does the key (well, the plastic housing) look munted in any way?

[MSTRS]

Nope. The contact ball is round. It's usually the bit that fails, because it wears flat.

[MSTRS]

After the last successful start, I thought a trip to the shop for a diagnostic hook-up would be a good thing. Famous last words...
This time, at frequent intervals, the engine died while driving. It'd never done that before. Maybe it is the CAS? Eventually, half a k short of the mechanics, in frustration I walked down and got him to come and tow the car the rest of the way. Got there, talked about what was going on, started the car and...it did and it kept going. Never missed a beat. Bastard thing!!
Left the car with him. He reported back that the computer showed no faults or error codes. Everything that was suspected as being the reason was tested and passed. Finally he checked the DFI module. Hello...it is apparently 'out of spec'. Whatever that means. He's put a secondhand replacement in and now we can but use the car to see if that has resolved the problem/s.
Fingers crossed.

[MSTRS]

Update. There have been no further issues with the car, so the problem had to have been the DFI all along.

[piston broke]

my vp,never used to start first time since the day i got it,
many looked for the problem to no avail.
fuel pump[ died on me,fitted new one and a filter,
suddenly she starts first time,
the problem was a near blocked filter.
7 mechanic's and more than a few $ spent.

[imne1]

my theories..
if holdens are like their ford counterparts then they transponder key unit have rolling codes, which means every time you use the key the code in BOTH the vehicle and key change. You need to use all of the keys programmed to the vehicle at least once every couple hundred cycles of the key otherwise your spare key 'falls out of the system' which can cause all sorts of problems

another possiblity is that this sensor was not plugged in properly and neither was the vehicles computer - australian assembly is extremely poor.
if the comp was getting a reading out of operating range for that sensor it may have thought the engine was overheating hence the fan and the no start.
when you removed the sensor, the comp had no input and therefore substituted it for a default one. once it got replugged it had a clear reading and behaved normally.
or... just unplugging the comp for 24 clear some random fault.

orr... its a piece of shit holden (as are frords), all aussie cars are crap, sell it and buy a reliable toyota or a nissan and spend the money you save on your bike(s)

[MSTRS]

...because I just know that there are those of you itching to know :innocent:

The car gave further starting problems. So we replaced the CAS. The old one seemed ok, but was covered in metal filings. No sign of where they'd come from tho. Again, the car performed fine. For a week.
So, off to Holden for a computer fault code diagnosis. Clear of all faults.
Hmmmm? Lucked upon an auto electrician who is a Holden fan...he checked (was the only one to do so) the inner surface of the + clamp on the battery. Corroded to buggery. New clamp, and a decent connector for the low tension lead to the ECM.
It's been nearly 6 months now - no further problem.

Moral of the story? When you have electric/electronic problems, check the simplest things first, starting at the battery connections.

[nadroj]

A bit like us really....
Corroded on the inside - rustic on the outer!
Will have to start pouring the alchohol over myself instead!!

[yungatart]

Moral of the story? When you have electric/electronic problems, check the simplest things first, starting at the battery connections.

Not only the simplest but, in this case anyway, the cheapest! All those dollars gone down the gurgler :weep::crybaby:

[kit]

Used to have a vs... every now and then it would turn over but not start... maybe 1 in a hundred times of starting it, it just wouldn go....always at the most inconvenient time!!!! took it into the shop as it was under warranty... they put the diognostics on it...and said there was nothin wrong with it but i refused to take it away untill it got fixed. So it sat there for three days and on the 3rd day as the mechanic went to put it in the shed for the night....the bloody thing wouldn't start (yay) there was a fault with the immobiliser unit!