National level race classes

[FROSTY]

A thought I had with smaller grids in the 2 premier level classes. 600's and 1000's

Given we seem to have about 15 in the 600 class and about 10 in the 1000's why dont we run support classes at the same time.

My thinking is we allow formula racing back in. F2 allowing modified older 600's and 2 stroke 250 RACE bikes
Formula 1 allowing 500cc race bikes and up to 1000 cc
They would be on the track at the same time as the production classes.

This is at National level

Waddaya think ?

[vtec]

I like it. But the place for experimenting with chucking different bikes together is definitely the club level and street races. At nationals we would really like a level playing field in terms of the machines, so the rider's can prove themselves. Supersport works a bit like this.

In a perfect world the big manufacturers would all be making decent 400cc v4's and we would have a decent fair and level F3 race field that was affordable to be competitive in.

Racing is missing a vital step between streetstocks/buckets and supersport. It used to be 250 production 2 strokes... We need 400cc 4 strokes dammit (with lots of modification restrictions). But nobody is making them. I think once the motogp changes from 2 stroke to four stroke, the manufacturers might start pumping out decent replica 400's like the good old days of the early nineties.

Motogp classes should be 400's 600's and 800's.

[ajturbo]

the VIC club are having a support class....

"open twin's"....

unfortunatly "open" is not really true... they recone my GT125 twin is not going to cut the mustard...

but the buell will...but i maybe needed on the day.. bugger it...

[CHOPPA]

the classes def need to be filled up! as long as everyone is in that 115% thing then sweet

[FROSTY]

thats what I'm thinking--fill the grids with two year old bikes mildly worked over. truth is theres gonna be fark all speed difference but it might encourage guys to stay on a season or two longer

[racer40]

hey frosty, we also saw this problem of what to do with the older 600s and are running a pre 05 class within the 600s at the promoto tri series this summer & already have a few entered

[Tony.OK]

the classes def need to be filled up! as long as everyone is in that 115% thing then sweet


thats what I'm thinking--fill the grids with two year old bikes mildly worked over. truth is theres gonna be fark all speed difference but it might encourage guys to stay on a season or two longer

Talking SBK's the fields will be smallish anyway I think, with the Vic series if the 600's weren't cross entered there wouldn't have been many SBK's on the grid(8-10). Add in the 115% rule and that takes away 4 or 5 of those.

Would be kinda nice if some of the imports spots were filled by locals but I guess its about winning not charity at the end of the day.

Wonder if they'll end up running the SBK's and 600's together if numbers fall too much?

[FROSTY]

hey frosty, we also saw this problem of what to do with the older 600s and are running a pre 05 class within the 600s at the promoto tri series this summer & already have a few entered
pre 05 sounds like a good idea :woohoo:--then roll it every year rather than stagnate

[CHOPPA]

Talking SBK's the fields will be smallish anyway I think, with the Vic series if the 600's weren't cross entered there wouldn't have been many SBK's on the grid(8-10). Add in the 115% rule and that takes away 4 or 5 of those.

Would be kinda nice if some of the imports spots were filled by locals but I guess its about winning not charity at the end of the day.

Wonder if they'll end up running the SBK's and 600's together if numbers fall too much?

hmm yeah its wierd how ozzys take up the very few top level rides nz offers.... But also alot of the regular club guys dont race either, are you gonna do a few rounds tony?

[Tony.OK]

hmm yeah its wierd how ozzys take up the very few top level rides nz offers.... But also alot of the regular club guys dont race either, are you gonna do a few rounds tony?

Was thinking about the Manfield round mate....................but then I checked this years times.............ouch............my times would put me at the very back hahaa. Maybe I could put an SV650 sticker on, then I might do ok:innocent:

[scrivy]

Was thinking about the Manfield round mate....................but then I checked this years times.............ouch............my times would put me at the very back hahaa. Maybe I could put an SV650 sticker on, then I might do ok:innocent:

Dude, why are people so scared to do their local round of the Nats?
So what if you're slower than the fast guys. So what!
It's a great way for you to learn their techniques by following them in practices and hopefully in the races. If they can go around a corner at x speed, then why cant you?? It gives you one hell of a boost to your own riding and belief of your own limits. Its great, and you get to hang out with them and ask them questions. They're not gods, they are approachable, and they will give you great advice. The last thing they want to see is their sport die off 'cause no newbies are coming through the ranks. They will help you. Believe me. It also boosts the numbers in the unfortunately dwindling classes.

Scrivy

[Shaun]

A thought I had with smaller grids in the 2 premier level classes. 600's and 1000's

Given we seem to have about 15 in the 600 class and about 10 in the 1000's why dont we run support classes at the same time.

My thinking is we allow formula racing back in. F2 allowing modified older 600's and 2 stroke 250 RACE bikes
Formula 1 allowing 500cc race bikes and up to 1000 cc
They would be on the track at the same time as the production classes.

This is at National level

Waddaya think ?



Planning and co-ordination Frosty, all to simple really.

And since the whole in the 600 class is all but fixed with the TRUE production bikes on board early March 2009 ( WOOPS GAVE
THE CLASS AWAY):niceone:

Keeping the cost dowh product that is allowed to be used on the bikes, will help RE Juvinate racing in NZ.

It is to dam exspensive to race seriously in NZ these days, after market this and that totalling around $12-000 just for bolt on parts. Bollocks! Get back on a True production bike, and learn how to ride one in the first place, then spend money a year or 2 later. if you feel you are up for the full on set up challenge.

A year or 2 of racing on Prodi bikes, will give the rider a lot of basic set up knoledge, as well as likes and dislikes to geometry set up, then you can go to CKT with dennis or Rob, and get the best after market product with there adjustment to suit you the rider, once you understand the basics first.

The time is the same on a chinese watch as it is on a Swedish watch, it is just that the internalls of the Swedish watch, are built as a top quality parts, where the chinese parts jut do the basics only.

The bike only goes as fast as you pull the trigger, and you will learn a lot from a bike that moves around under you more than you will learn from a rock solid well suspension set up bike as a learner rider, NOT A CRAIG S or Sloan 4example

[FROSTY]

Was thinking about the Manfield round mate....................but then I checked this years times.............ouch............my times would put me at the very back hahaa. Maybe I could put an SV650 sticker on, then I might do ok:innocent:
Mate with one noteable exception (ME fuggit) I have noticed that riders tend to raise their game doing the nationals.
If its just because the tracks usually warmer or its just that you are with the top riders I dunno.

[Shaun]

Mate with one noteable exception (ME fuggit) I have noticed that riders tend to raise their game doing the nationals.
If its just because the tracks usually warmer or its just that you are with the top riders I dunno.



Both dude, also When the Flag drops, The B Shit stops

[FROSTY]

Both dude, also When the Flag drops, The B Shit stops
Talking about Bshit stops.--er looks like were back on for friday mate.

[Shaun]

Talking about Bshit stops.--er looks like were back on for friday mate.



I told you that yesterday by phone mate, please leave the shit of the net dude

[slowpoke]

Dude, why are people so scared to do their local round of the Nats?
So what if you're slower than the fast guys. So what!
It's a great way for you to learn their techniques by following them in practices and hopefully in the races. If they can go around a corner at x speed, then why cant you?? It gives you one hell of a boost to your own riding and belief of your own limits. Its great, and you get to hang out with them and ask them questions. They're not gods, they are approachable, and they will give you great advice. The last thing they want to see is their sport die off 'cause no newbies are coming through the ranks. They will help you. Believe me. It also boosts the numbers in the unfortunately dwindling classes.

Scrivy

Couldn't agree more mate, well said. I think it was last year Peter Tanner won the Clubman's race at Manfeild on his Aprilia and I'm like "WTF?! The guy is a front runner at the club rounds, surely he should be in the main event?" Maybe we need to make Clubman's for Clubman's racers or non-qualifiers, not anybody who's ego is too fragile to race against the best, thereby forcing more bikes into the main feild.

Harking back to my favourite soap box I still think that the main problem is the lack of incentive for 600 riders to step up to the big bikes. Thou' riders are effectively punished at club level because for an extra 10 bucks a 600 or SV650 or pre-89 400 rider gets twice as much racing and/or qualifying time in alternative classes. Why would you want to step up and get less racing? The situation needs to be addressed with a logical progression put in place that encourages our top riders to move into the top classes.

I watched some 4 wheeled racing this weekend on TV and I was amazed at the money on show. There were school kids racing $50,000 Formula Fords.....lots of 'em! Same for the late model production cars and Mini Challenge cars with youngsters somehow fronting up with lots of cash and lots of sponsors for what is a fairly boring spectacle.

Even allowing for a biased perspective bike racing is at least as good a spectacle if not better yet we struggle to get people and sponsors involved.

Juggling classes, and introducing production spec bikes won't help us tap into the pool of sponsors that is out there ready and willing to throw cash about (as proven by the cars) neither will down-speccing our bikes to remove us further from international classes and competition. The problem with money in our sport is one of promotion and marketing not whether lil' Abe rides an SV650 or a standard/modified 600 as his next bike.

[Shaun]

Couldn't agree more mate, well said. I think it was last year Peter Tanner won the Clubman's race at Manfeild on his Aprilia and I'm like "WTF?! The guy is a front runner at the club rounds, surely he should be in the main event?" Maybe we need to make Clubman's for Clubman's racers or non-qualifiers, not anybody who's ego is too fragile to race against the best, thereby forcing more bikes into the main feild.

Harking back to my favourite soap box I still think that the main problem is the lack of incentive for 600 riders to step up to the big bikes. Thou' riders are effectively punished at club level because for an extra 10 bucks a 600 or SV650 or pre-89 400 rider gets twice as much racing and/or qualifying time in alternative classes. Why would you want to step up and get less racing? The situation needs to be addressed with a logical progression put in place that encourages our top riders to move into the top classes.

I watched some 4 wheeled racing this weekend on TV and I was amazed at the money on show. There were school kids racing $50,000 Formula Fords.....lots of 'em! Same for the late model production cars and Mini Challenge cars with youngsters somehow fronting up with lots of cash and lots of sponsors for what is a fairly boring spectacle.

Even allowing for a biased perspective bike racing is at least as good a spectacle if not better yet we struggle to get people and sponsors involved.

Juggling classes, and introducing production spec bikes won't help us tap into the pool of sponsors that is out there ready and willing to throw cash about (as proven by the cars) neither will down-speccing our bikes to remove us further from international classes and competition. The problem with money in our sport is one of promotion and marketing not whether lil' Abe rides an SV650 or a standard/modified 600 as his next bike.



I here what you are saying slowpoke BUT, our grids were full years back when the true cost of a production bike was alot cheaper to race on, and we produced a lot of world talented riders from the production bikes, SO why is the production class not going help?

RE Sponsors, yes the bike scene is a lot smaller han the car scene, as EVERY one drives a car!

Re Sponsors again

If you really want to race seriously, you WILL get another job, borrow the money, do it what it takes to get out there, or just get on here and bleet about how hard it is to get a sponsor, when the chances are, most of the bleeters, would have no idea what ROI means, or even how to communicate with the potentuall sponsors, but because they have a set of leathers and race bike, they feel they shuld be given some one elses money to play with NO WAY- Go and prove yoyrself, then ask for sponsors:clap:

[quallman1234]

Pre 05 bikes won't work. You could pour money at a 05 GSXR600 and be as quick as the new ones.
Money limitations are too hard too police.

Something like how the R6 cup is ran/used to be (obviously allow more than just one type of bike). Would be the go.

[CHOPPA]

Was thinking about the Manfield round mate....................but then I checked this years times.............ouch............my times would put me at the very back hahaa. Maybe I could put an SV650 sticker on, then I might do ok:innocent:

Just do it bro, even my times put me at the back but i figure racing fast dudes is gonna make me fast, theres always gonna be someone at the back if everyone has that attitude we would end up with only 1 rider.....

[driftn]

I think pre 00 750s should be allowed to race with the 600's my self as they are no faster than a new 600. Or just a class for pre 1998 that would be good.

[Tony.OK]

Dude, why are people so scared to do their local round of the Nats?
So what if you're slower than the fast guys. So what!
It's a great way for you to learn their techniques by following them in practices and hopefully in the races. If they can go around a corner at x speed, then why cant you?? It gives you one hell of a boost to your own riding and belief of your own limits. Its great, and you get to hang out with them and ask them questions. They're not gods, they are approachable, and they will give you great advice. The last thing they want to see is their sport die off 'cause no newbies are coming through the ranks. They will help you. Believe me. It also boosts the numbers in the unfortunately dwindling classes.

Scrivy


Just do it bro, even my times put me at the back but i figure racing fast dudes is gonna make me fast, theres always gonna be someone at the back if everyone has that attitude we would end up with only 1 rider.....
Cheers guys.........very good points, hadn't thought about it like that:clap:

[Robert Taylor]

Talking SBK's the fields will be smallish anyway I think, with the Vic series if the 600's weren't cross entered there wouldn't have been many SBK's on the grid(8-10). Add in the 115% rule and that takes away 4 or 5 of those.

Would be kinda nice if some of the imports spots were filled by locals but I guess its about winning not charity at the end of the day.

Wonder if they'll end up running the SBK's and 600's together if numbers fall too much?

Let me clarify about ''import riders'' for the upcoming Road Race Nationals

Suzuki NZ 66.67% local riders

Yamaha NZ 50% local riders

Honda NZ 100% local riders

In general running a disparity of bike sizes / speed together is dangerous. Although we have a worldwide and cyclical economic recession that is not reason enough in itself to get spooked and try to reform the classes by trying to bring the costs down. That very often has negative consequences and can often actually increase costs. Lack of time precludes me repeating a whole plethora of reasons why a ''true production class'' is actually fraught with issues, particularly with larger capacity bikes that much much more so challenge their tyres and suspension. In the upcoming issue of BRM magazine will be a letter replying to Wayne Lists support for a basically bone stock production formula. Suffice to say, if Wayne and others of like mind were actually involved at the coalface their opinions wouldnt be so black and white and over-simplistic.
And in deference to those who think otherwise the current road race commissioner has done a very well balanced job with the class structures, from a position of experience and a very very thorough understanding of the issues.
Others have stated in this thread about how much money is evident in car racing. I concur totally with that as our suspension work also involves car racing. In that vein I think a lot of the answer is in attracting money to the sport, rather than trying to retrench. For those on tighter budgets we have less expensive classes such as pro-twins and 125s.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

I think pre 00 750s should be allowed to race with the 600's my self as they are no faster than a new 600. Or just a class for pre 1998 that would be good.

Good idea!!
lotsa early ninties "super bikes" out there going CHEAP. just fettle with suspention,brakes and fit good tyres and your racing!

[Robert Taylor]

Good idea!!
lotsa early ninties "super bikes" out there going CHEAP. just fettle with suspention,brakes and fit good tyres and your racing!

Post classics are the home for older bikes, the Nationals are for late model bikes and the countrys most elite riders. I make no apologies if that in any way sounds arrogant, its not because I gratefully accept business from lots of good people with older bikes. Just merely stating the obvious. As I have said previously there are other cost controlled classes. To keep ad hoc advocating more classes or to advocate ill thought bastardisation of the existing classes is a nonsense in a country with a small population. Although there is merit in fine tuning of feeder classes and perhaps a ''privateers cup'' within existing sports production classes.
I take issue with a number of things that Shaun advocates but I do pick up on what he intimated about doing the hard yards to support your racing. I do wonder if this country has at large gone soft and too many expect everything given to them on a plate

[Mishy]

As I have said previously there are other cost controlled classes. To keep ad hoc advocating more classes or to advocate ill thought bastardisation of the existing classes is a nonsense in a country with a small population.


In my opinion that a very important point Robert. There are few enough riders to fill the classes we have, so creating more classes just robs peter to pay paul, and leaves everybody short. I am fully behind the Protwins idea, because I see that this gives a cost effective class for people to start in, while still giving the chance to learn the skills that will be required on the faster bikes. If we can get more interest in the protwins idea, then I would hope that we will see that feed through into the bigger class in time.
On another subject, I also wonder why so few people go to race at their their local national meeting ? When I started racing in the early 90's it was what you did - turned up at all the north island meetings to race in F3 and get lapped by Tony McMurdo and Ernie Cudby while you learned the ropes. It was always a blast to just race against other guys in the best conditions of the year, and in time, we all got better and some ended up as frontrunners themselves.
The current Road Race Commisioner is diong a great job with balancing all the demands we all put on him, we could do with a few more bums on bikes though !

[Shaun P]

Re Sponsors again

If you really want to race seriously, you WILL get another job, borrow the money, do it what it takes to get out there, or just get on here and bleet about how hard it is to get a sponsor, when the chances are, most of the bleeters, would have no idea what ROI means, or even how to communicate with the potentuall sponsors, but because they have a set of leathers and race bike, they feel they shuld be given some one elses money to play with NO WAY- Go and prove yoyrself, then ask for sponsors:clap:

Return On Investment? A hard one to quantify, but with a bit of thought and effort can be rewarding for sponsors in more ways than one.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Post classics are the home for older bikes, the Nationals are for late model bikes and the countrys most elite riders. I make no apologies if that in any way sounds arrogant, its not because I gratefully accept business from lots of good people with older bikes. Just merely stating the obvious.

I agree.....no, I really do.
yes, I know this is KB. no-one is supposed to share the same opinion right? haha
yes, the older bike classes best kept for club racing. thats fine by me. bike racing needs to be built from the club level up anyhoo

[CHOPPA]

Return On Investment? A hard one to quantify, but with a bit of thought and effort can be rewarding for sponsors in more ways than one.

:buggerd::msn-wink:

[lostinflyz]

In my opinion that a very important point Robert. There are few enough riders to fill the classes we have, so creating more classes just robs peter to pay paul, and leaves everybody short. I am fully behind the Protwins idea, because I see that this gives a cost effective class for people to start in, while still giving the chance to learn the skills that will be required on the faster bikes. If we can get more interest in the protwins idea, then I would hope that we will see that feed through into the bigger class in time.
On another subject, I also wonder why so few people go to race at their their local national meeting ? When I started racing in the early 90's it was what you did - turned up at all the north island meetings to race in F3 and get lapped by Tony McMurdo and Ernie Cudby while you learned the ropes. It was always a blast to just race against other guys in the best conditions of the year, and in time, we all got better and some ended up as frontrunners themselves.
The current Road Race Commisioner is diong a great job with balancing all the demands we all put on him, we could do with a few more bums on bikes though !

one of the main reasons alotta guys dont run nationals i think is cost. talking 160 bucks for f3 compared to 60 for clubmans (dont forget transponder hire). im happy as hell to be lapped (every lap) but im not gonna pay 100 bucks more for the privelidge. and im gutted about it but id rather do all 3 rounds in clubmans than struggle through only 2 in f3.

pro twins is a good idea but its still not all that economic. obviously racing is never free (or even remotely cheap) but if we always expect new classes to need new bikes we will never have that many on the grids. Down south here the biggest grids are in streetstock and there ain't no new bikes out there. ok so i know its also the cheapest (and by a rather far too long way) but its not brand new 150 cbr's or 250 hyosungs. its cheap, easy to repair bikes, and no one really complains about them having a few years under their belt.

Somewhere at some point a place needs to be found for the older bikes. the amount of guys with 01 or 02 (let alone the million and one 90's) bikes and no where to race them is a bit stupid really. while its all good and well to have the best bikes and the best riders at nationals, which is right i agree, there needs to be some good racing and a decent field to make it worthwhile. and if that means letting in older worked 750's or toyed '00 superbikes then im all for it. in the end we all benefit from a better and larger race field size, so whats the harm??

[steveyb]

"I watched some 4 wheeled racing this weekend on TV and I was amazed at the money on show. There were school kids racing $50,000 Formula Fords.....lots of 'em! Same for the late model production cars and Mini Challenge cars with youngsters somehow fronting up with lots of cash and lots of sponsors for what is a fairly boring spectacle."

So how does this happen? In large part the answer lies in TEAMS. There are teams that own and run the cars and then go looking for drivers that can pay for their seats in the teams. But this seat is a hell of a lot cheaper than that young fella and his Dad buying a car and trying to run it (although of course that happens, it tends to be less in the pointy end classes).

IMHO this is the very area where our sport is falling over. Why should all the new young, or even not so young riders, have to try and finance their own machines and try and maintain them when they don't need to. This is not to say they don't have to do the hard yards. They still have to find the money and train and learn to ride and race, but if we want to grow beyond where we are now we need more of the older buggers like me to buy a couple of bikes and set up teams to get the young fullas onto the bikes. That is how it is done in the UK, Australia, Europe and USA to a large degree. We are all going to revel in Fat Boy Shirrifs (well, maybe not so fat anymore) and Haydie winning the Superbike races this summer :innocent:, but if they were not in a supported team they would in all likelihood not be racing.
These teams do NOT have to be only distributor backed teams you know. E.G. Triple R Racing Team.

"Somewhere at some point a place needs to be found for the older bikes. the amount of guys with 01 or 02 (let alone the million and one 90's) bikes and no where to race them is a bit stupid really. while its all good and well to have the best bikes and the best riders at nationals, which is right i agree, there needs to be some good racing and a decent field to make it worthwhile. and if that means letting in older worked 750's or toyed '00 superbikes then im all for it. in the end we all benefit from a better and larger race field size, so whats the harm??"

What is the NZSBK championships about?
Do y'all just want it to be the "NZ Club racing champs around NZ over the Summer" series??
NZSBK must be about the best riders and machines competing hard against each other.
That does not preclude riders who want to improve becoming involved. As Choppa says, if there was no one at the back there would be only 1 rider!! And ultimately, How do you get faster? By competing against faster riders and pushing your own limits.
The Post Classic guys need to modify the age limits every now and then to include these bikes and anyway, you can race all year round outside of the NZSBK if you want, at all the club racing in NZ. If you want to go racing, pack your gear and go. VMCC/MC Canturbury/Sthland MC over the winter, Pacific/AMCC/Tri-Series/BOTS over the spring/summer, done, plenty of racing. No excuses now!!

Enjoy

Steve

[Mishy]

one of the main reasons alotta guys dont run nationals i think is cost. talking 160 bucks for f3 compared to 60 for clubmans (dont forget transponder hire). im happy as hell to be lapped (every lap) but im not gonna pay 100 bucks more for the privelidge. and im gutted about it but id rather do all 3 rounds in clubmans than struggle through only 2 in f3.

pro twins is a good idea but its still not all that economic. obviously racing is never free (or even remotely cheap) but if we always expect new classes to need new bikes we will never have that many on the grids. Down south here the biggest grids are in streetstock and there ain't no new bikes out there. ok so i know its also the cheapest (and by a rather far too long way) but its not brand new 150 cbr's or 250 hyosungs. its cheap, easy to repair bikes, and no one really complains about them having a few years under their belt.



I hear you, and here lies part of the problem - getting club enthusiasts to step up to national level. I have always wondered where the fixation with entry costs comes from - it's such a small part of the total outlay when you look at it all. I guess it's just the perception of poorer value for money that turns people away, but it's a pretty close thing in the end. The older F3 bikes are all still eligible for F3, it just seems (in the north island at least) that they have all jumped to Post Classic now. That's cool, but I'm guessing that not many of them will come out in summer to race, and that's a pity. I kinda think that a lot of people won't go and race nationals if their machine is "uncompetitive". That's a pity, because it's awsome getting three days on the same track when it's hot n sticky, and frying your mind by going faster than you ever have - regardless of how fast that may be :)
I still think that (notwithatanding Shaun's current plans) Protwins is about as economical a class as we could expect at National level.
I think I've overdone my two cents worth . . . . . .

[Mishy]

. . . . . . . . . In large part the answer lies in TEAMS. There are teams that own and run the cars and then go looking for drivers that can pay for their seats in the teams. But this seat is a hell of a lot cheaper than that young fella and his Dad buying a car and trying to run it (although of course that happens, it tends to be less in the pointy end classes).

IMHO this is the very area where our sport is falling over. Why should all the new young, or even not so young riders, have to try and finance their own machines and try and maintain them when they don't need to.. . . . . . . . . . . . We are all going to revel in Fat Boy Shirrifs (well, maybe not so fat anymore) and Haydie winning the Superbike races this summer :innocent:, but if they were not in a supported team they would in all likelihood not be racing.
These teams do NOT have to be only distributor backed teams you know. E.G. Triple R Racing Team.
Steve

Ha ha ! neither you nor I should be calling Craig fat ! :) But I do agree with you that getting guys that are out to pasture ( like you and I) to put something into getting younger guys onto bikes is important. Craig had private support early on in his career from Bob, and then from Chris, and this must have helped get him further along, but there is only so much money that your average Joe can spend on toys - and that's where it gets tough. I'm sure your Glen is better off for the support you give him, and so is Kenneth with Maart'ys help, but the step from that to a Superbike (or even a serious 600) campaign is pretty big. That's where we need to work to find people with the cash to put in - they just won't come looking for us !

[lostinflyz]

"
What is the NZSBK championships about?
Do y'all just want it to be the "NZ Club racing champs around NZ over the Summer" series??
NZSBK must be about the best riders and machines competing hard against each other.
That does not preclude riders who want to improve becoming involved. As Choppa says, if there was no one at the back there would be only 1 rider!! And ultimately, How do you get faster? By competing against faster riders and pushing your own limits.
The Post Classic guys need to modify the age limits every now and then to include these bikes and anyway, you can race all year round outside of the NZSBK if you want, at all the club racing in NZ. If you want to go racing, pack your gear and go. VMCC/MC Canturbury/Sthland MC over the winter, Pacific/AMCC/Tri-Series/BOTS over the spring/summer, done, plenty of racing. No excuses now!!

Enjoy

Steve

i get the drift about the superbike series but how much of it is ever that competitive and how much of that competition is locally raised fellers. ok so there are a number of guys up and coming and a few of the older gaurd but theres usually alotta aussies and the like, alotta them on the big time supported bikes. that being said i do enjoy the racing.

i just think nationals should be more than just based round NZ than just finding the 5,6,7 or 8 fastest bikes we can get and sticking whoever on them and then not seeing either of them again. i mean correct me if im wrong but it is kinda the nz club racing champs. its the only series in NZ that runs all the tracks (well nearly), and 80% of the feilds are guys on their own bikes with little or no sponsorship.

[wharfy]

One thing to remember is that NZ has a population that in most developed countries would only make a small city. In Spain or Italy a national championship meeting would get more spectators than the Allblacks against South Africa at Eden Park !!
The biggest crowds in NZ are at Wanganui and Paeroa and only a handful of the spectators would be able to name the current NZ champ in ANY class. They go because it is an EVENT and really exciting cause you are VERY close.

Most racers in NZ race because it is fun, a small number will have a chance at winning a national title and a VERY small number may have a chance of a career in racing.

I don't know how many people go to watch a National round at Puke or Taupo but I suspect it is a LOT less than Wanganui.

A lot more people race motocross, I don't know but suspect that they get similar sized crowds at nationals as road racing. I also suspect that the reason more people race MX is because you can actually buy a NEW RACE BIKE for a reasonable price. You don't have to buy a trail bike and spend a shit load of time and money trying to make it an MX bike.

Where can I get a NEW road race bike ? (apart from a Ducati 1098R at $60k )

Maybe if track days become popular enough the factories will start to make bikes for them.

[wharfy]

I know it is bad form to follow your own post but , one good thing about all those MX riders is they do make shit hot road racers if we can get them to cross over :)

[k14]

Where can I get a NEW road race bike ? (apart from a Ducati 1098R at $60k )
RS125, should be able to track a new one down for around $15k if you are keen :Punk:

[wharfy]

RS125, should be able to track a new one down for around $15k if you are keen :Punk:

Umm... It was a rhetorical question really, and I didn't think anyone would be able to produce one :) But if I wasn't over 95kg I might be tempted. I am under no illusions about my ability (I am WAY to old at 54 to be a contender, but am competitive if you know what I mean) and was thinking about a pro twin, the Hornet I race in clubmans has done 95,000+ Ks and wont last forever. I am pretty interested in the deal that shaun is promoting, especially now we know its in the 600 class. :)

[svr]

RS125, should be able to track a new one down for around $15k if you are keen :Punk:

For similar money we could go a lot faster (and we'd all fit) on production 600s if the powers that be (and their advisors) let us...
Seems to me a class that would really suit NZers.

[vtec]

I agree... streetstock 600's. Road legal (or maybe control) tyres, standard suspension and exhausts, no powercommanders or anything. That would be a sweet class. The bikes would last longer not be as dangerous, but would require just as much skill to get around the track fast. Although it doesn't improve a rider's ability to setup a proper race bike.

[Robert Taylor]

I agree... streetstock 600's. Road legal (or maybe control) tyres, standard suspension and exhausts, no powercommanders or anything. That would be a sweet class. The bikes would last longer not be as dangerous, but would require just as much skill to get around the track fast. Although it doesn't improve a rider's ability to setup a proper race bike.

Not be as dangerous? Im sorry but you clearly you havent evidenced that stock suspension eats tyres with regularity. Yes you could have control tyres but they would be so wooden that thered be no grip and that would assist riders falling off the bikes a whole lot more readily.
But dont believe me, this is only a field that Im involved in 24 /7.
There are control classes that regulate costs eg Pro Twins. The two elite classes are just that and should for the most part be left alone. In those classes there are proper solutions for technical problems, rather than band aid ''solutions''. The class structure has been made up by experts that actually understand the issues!
But dont believe me, apparently I have an agenda...........

[Robert Taylor]

For similar money we could go a lot faster (and we'd all fit) on production 600s if the powers that be (and their advisors) let us...
Seems to me a class that would really suit NZers.

Incorrect on account of the tyre bill alone.

[Mishy]

For similar money we could go a lot faster (and we'd all fit) on production 600s if the powers that be (and their advisors) let us...
Seems to me a class that would really suit NZers.

:) you should check out what a season's worth of tyres for a 600 cost !
They just don't last that well with stock suspension, and (unfortunately) lead to a kind of false economy. We chewed 10's of thousands of dollasr of tyres in the last two years, and would have chewed a lot more than that with stock suspension. The only way to make the stock stuff work would be to regulate the tyre as well - no stickies. But that just wouldn,t be much fun, would it . . . . . .
You gotta give real race tyres real race suspension, and pretty much anything you can pick on the track is actually a thinly disguised race tyre, not a road tyre.

[Mishy]

Incorrect on account of the tyre bill alone.

damn ! you beat me too it !

BASTARD !

[FROSTY]

. The two elite classes are just that and should for the most part be left alone. In those classes there are proper solutions for technical problems, rather than band aid ''solutions''. The class structure has been made up by experts that actually understand the issues!
But dont believe me, apparently I have an agenda...........
Robert and Mishy
OK then you two blokes have a fair few years experience
What do you guys suggest as the solution to the ever shrinking "elite" class feilds at national level then??
My idea was to get the grids filled back up by using retired 2/3/4 year old bikes --usually still fitted with all the suspension,exhaust fruit but maybee just needing a hotter cam. If you have 15 of them and 15 "elite" bikes on the grid,-Not competing for the same championship of course.
You will now say 2 championships means 2 sets of times to sort- The transponders sort all that out -so maybee its the prize money lol
Please dont go into that tripe about slow and speed difference--the 115% rule sorts that out and being honest --look back at lap records set and they arent dropping by 15% a season so the old bikes arent that much slower.

The point being that if the sport isn't atracting the spectator involvement that one and all keep saying "should" atttend then you need full grids so the clubs don't go broke running national level racing..

[scracha]

There are control classes that regulate costs eg Pro Twins. The two elite classes are just that and should for the most part be left alone.

I see where you're coming from Robert and agree that the top class should be left alone. Trouble is NZ simply can't support two "elite" classes, the population and money just isn't there. Now if there was an "R6 cup" or similar (same bike, exhaust, power commander, suspenders (ohlins, WP, whatever)) for the 600's as a step to jumping up to the one "elite" class then perhaps we'd get more riders involved, more interest in the sport and more sponsors. Sounds pretty much like what a little ginger man is doing at the moment so everyone should be happy.

Someone will shoot me for this but the costs in pro twins and post classics at club level have to be kept down. The (mostly silent)majority of riders out there have no illusions about being the next Rossi and simply do it for fun. Without them the race meetings would be very quiet and boring (did someone say Nationals?)

[Mishy]

My idea was to get the grids filled back up by using retired 2/3/4 year old bikes --usually still fitted with all the suspension,exhaust fruit but maybee just needing a hotter cam. If you have 15 of them and 15 "elite" bikes on the grid,-Not competing for the same championship of course.
You will now say 2 championships means 2 sets of times to sort- The transponders sort all that out -so maybee its the prize money lol
Please dont go into that tripe about slow and speed difference--the 115% rule sorts that out and being honest --look back at lap records set and they arent dropping by 15% a season so the old bikes arent that much slower.

The point being that if the sport isn't atracting the spectator involvement that one and all keep saying "should" atttend then you need full grids so the clubs don't go broke running national level racing..

Right now there is no reason why a guy (or girl) with a two or three year old 600cc bike shouldn't be out there, and making it WELL within the 115% cutoff, and being competitive relative to where they are in the field. Our kawasaki from last year only made about 4hp more at peak than a three year old model, and that's not a huge deal.
One big reality (often ignored at the moment) is that the bike is not what separates the top guys from the rest, and the rules in 600 don't make people "uncompetitive" because of the cost involved. Truth is that the top guys spend more mony on testing and tyres, and you can't regulate that out - they'll always do it, and this is the biggest difference in cost betweeen a front runner and a mid fielder.
I say save your cash - don't bother with the cams - and just get out and ride!

As far as spectators go, i believe that we are on the way up. there were bigger numbers out at last nationals, and even at winter series, and we all hope to see that continue

[Billy]

Right now there is no reason why a guy (or girl) with a two or three year old 600cc bike shouldn't be out there
I say save your cash - don't bother with the cams - and just get out and ride!


Thats the best bit of advice I have seen on this site.Far too often when working with the top tier teams have I seen them do nothing for 2-3 days but change the suspension constantly and in some cases get lost in the science of suspension set up,The best thing you can do is ride what youve got and adjust the suspension when and if you feel it needs it until you have a better understanding of how things work.Then when you upgrade to the good stuff at a later date you can give your supplier some reasonable feedback and get the results you desire quickly.All the suspension courses in the world wont help you.If you cant tell your technician what you require then youve got no show of getting the bike set up

[FROSTY]

One big reality (often ignored at the moment) is that the bike is not what separates the top guys from the rest, and the rules in 600 don't make people "uncompetitive" because of the cost involved. Truth is that the top guys spend more mony on testing and tyres, and you can't regulate that out - they'll always do it, and this is the biggest difference in cost betweeen a front runner and a mid fielder.
I say save your cash - don't bother with the cams - and just get out and ride!
Couldn't agree more mate. BUT heres the thing the nature of our sport means we want to WIN or at least stand a shit show in hell of winning.
I'm not saying there aren't a lot of guys who are happy just being there and competing and I say bloody fantastic for them. AND there arent guys who do a season on an older bike as a learning curve.
But most of us want a shit show in hell of winning.
--Hey what about a simple +3 class --still 600's and 1000's but must be 3 years old?

[wharfy]

I agree.....no, I really do.
yes, I know this is KB. no-one is supposed to share the same opinion right? haha
yes, the older bike classes best kept for club racing. thats fine by me. bike racing needs to be built from the club level up anyhoo

Club racing is alive and well if the Vic club winter series is anything to go by. On more than one occasion the superbike grid was over subscribed and the no-qualifiers had the option of making my clubmans class even more interesting. A few clubmans riders also progressed to suberbikes during the series. The street stock class was chocker as well, in fact most classes had full grids.

Given our small population I think we will have to accept that our elite class is always going to have a small number of riders at the pointy end - regardless of how level the playing field is. BUT I think we need to have some "level playing field" classes to identify those riders who could be at the pointy end given a chance. Also somewhere for people with modest ambitions and limited budgets to play.

Why are there so few pro twins racers ?

[scracha]

Why are there so few pro twins racers ?
Still kinda a new class. A lot of the existing SV650 race bikes had different front ends fitted so am guessing they wanted to stay as competitive F3 bikes (and no so competitive F2 bikes). It will get bigger. There's a fair few riders on $hite old 400's that will be jumping onto pro twins and perhaps some on F2 bikes that have got sick of spending money on tyres.

[slowpoke]

Right now there is no reason why a guy (or girl) with a two or three year old 600cc bike shouldn't be out there, and making it WELL within the 115% cutoff, and being competitive relative to where they are in the field. Our kawasaki from last year only made about 4hp more at peak than a three year old model, and that's not a huge deal.
One big reality (often ignored at the moment) is that the bike is not what separates the top guys from the rest, and the rules in 600 don't make people "uncompetitive" because of the cost involved. Truth is that the top guys spend more mony on testing and tyres, and you can't regulate that out - they'll always do it, and this is the biggest difference in cost betweeen a front runner and a mid fielder.
I say save your cash - don't bother with the cams - and just get out and ride!


Exactly! Craig Shirriff's, Choppa, Johnny Burkhart, Jay Lawrence, Nick Cole, Sam Smith (in no particular order) could and/or have won a VMCC Superbike race on their 600's. They could/have done so because they are better riders not because they have the fastest machines.

Same goes for the incredible times Craig was setting on a very undeveloped machine at the last Vic Club round. As I understand it it had some flash suspenders and a pipe and that was about it. For a machine that cost half that of a National level Superbike he was 2sec/lap quicker than everyone....because he's that good, not because the bike cost megabucks. So what's to stop someone else doing the same? You or I could put the bike together in an afternoon.

The problem is finding someone good enough to ride it, not finding or funding a good enough bike.


Couldn't agree more mate. BUT heres the thing the nature of our sport means we want to WIN or at least stand a shit show in hell of winning.
I'm not saying there aren't a lot of guys who are happy just being there and competing and I say bloody fantastic for them. AND there arent guys who do a season on an older bike as a learning curve.
But most of us want a shit show in hell of winning.
--Hey what about a simple +3 class --still 600's and 1000's but must be 3 years old?

So what's the scoop, if you can't win you don't wanna play anymore? Tell that to 90% of the 36 attempted qualifiers at the last Vic Club Superbike round and you'd be laughed outta the pits. FFS half the Superbike field (prolly more) were on 600's and theoretically uncompetitive! I reckon most of us race ourselves as much as we race other people. I for one have have a time in mind that I'm determined to match if not beat rather than a finishing position, which would still be well down the finishing order.

Sorry mate, but this whole "gotta win or it's not worth turning up" just doesn't sit right with me.

The Nats are a golden opportunity to learn from the very best in NZ if not Australasia...where else would you get 2 track days back to back with Stroud, Bugden, Shirriffs, Lawrence, Smith, Charlett etc. I don't care what the entry fee is it's fuggin' good value to be able to follow these guys around both on track and off. How else do you learn this stuff? If you are remotely competitive at the club level and have any racing ambitions whatsoever you are a fool if you don't turn up.

[FROSTY]

But theres the rub--35 or more entrys at club level and scratchin for 15 at national level.
So it aint a case of don't fix what aint broke. --It is broken
Maybee theres another way to breath life into the elete classes
Me Im happy in F3 and planning now for the 09/10 nats --

[svr]

Incorrect on account of the tyre bill alone.

Easy fix: 1 set per meeting.

[k14]

Easy fix: 1 set per meeting.
Yeah well in that case double the possible tyre bill for crash damage.

[Mishy]

Easy fix: 1 set per meeting.

That's the rule for Pro Twins, and Pro Twins is the class designed to most limit cost. Why apply that to 600SP ? We already have a new class which has rules designed to make it apealing, afordable, and easy to get into, so why mess with the other classes out there ? look at the numbers in 600SP and tell me that's not doing o.k :)

[slowpoke]

Going by the large numbers at this seasons club rounds it's going to be interesting just how many entrants we see front up for the Nationals. Fingers crossed we see a marked increase there too.

Our employment conditions have changed markedly since the glory days of proddie racing so maybe it's nothing to do with bikes and racing costs at all. Factor in reduced effective wages, increased per capita borrowings, that awkward bit of water separating the Island's and nowadays it becomes a big ask to take a few days off work to go racing on the other island. We aren't racing in the same economic/employment environment so maybe comparing the glory days of old to now just isn't a valid comparison.

Sponsors are also operating in a different environment with maximum return required for every dollar spent. Effectively, if you aren't a hero then you are zero. At the moment bike racing is effectively zero which makes it very difficult to increase you profile and become a hero "brand" for potential sponsors and promotors of our sport.

I don't think it's quite as simple as reducing actual racing costs. The Pro-Twin class is cheap as chips yet isn't exactly bursting at the seams.

[Mishy]

Going by the large numbers at this seasons club rounds it's going to be interesting just how many entrants we see front up for the Nationals. Fingers crossed we see a marked increase there too.

Our employment conditions have changed markedly since the glory days of proddie racing so maybe it's nothing to do with bikes and racing costs at all. Factor in reduced effective wages, increased per capita borrowings, that awkward bit of water separating the Island's and nowadays it becomes a big ask to take a few days off work to go racing on the other island. We aren't racing in the same economic/employment environment so maybe comparing the glory days of old to now just isn't a valid comparison.

Sponsors are also operating in a different environment with maximum return required for every dollar spent. Effectively, if you aren't a hero then you are zero. At the moment bike racing is effectively zero which makes it very difficult to increase you profile and become a hero "brand" for potential sponsors and promotors of our sport.

I don't think it's quite as simple as reducing actual racing costs. The Pro-Twin class is cheap as chips yet isn't exactly bursting at the seams.

Extremely insightful, and hard to disagree with. I began racing in the early 90's and I'm pretty sure my wage got me a lot more racing then.
Whatever way you look at it, the higher level you want to compete at, the more it costs - exponetialy ! Going from midfield in any class and trying to compete at the front will probably double (or more) the cost involved.

[Robert Taylor]

I see where you're coming from Robert and agree that the top class should be left alone. Trouble is NZ simply can't support two "elite" classes, the population and money just isn't there. Now if there was an "R6 cup" or similar (same bike, exhaust, power commander, suspenders (ohlins, WP, whatever)) for the 600's as a step to jumping up to the one "elite" class then perhaps we'd get more riders involved, more interest in the sport and more sponsors. Sounds pretty much like what a little ginger man is doing at the moment so everyone should be happy.

Someone will shoot me for this but the costs in pro twins and post classics at club level have to be kept down. The (mostly silent)majority of riders out there have no illusions about being the next Rossi and simply do it for fun. Without them the race meetings would be very quiet and boring (did someone say Nationals?)

Essentially as per overseas Superstock rules. No internal engine mods but allow as you say exhaust and aftermarket ECU and decent suspenders that wont burn the tyres up repeatedly and allow tyres with decent levels of grip that wont land the rider on his / her head with too much regularity.

[Robert Taylor]

Right now there is no reason why a guy (or girl) with a two or three year old 600cc bike shouldn't be out there, and making it WELL within the 115% cutoff, and being competitive relative to where they are in the field. Our kawasaki from last year only made about 4hp more at peak than a three year old model, and that's not a huge deal.
One big reality (often ignored at the moment) is that the bike is not what separates the top guys from the rest, and the rules in 600 don't make people "uncompetitive" because of the cost involved. Truth is that the top guys spend more mony on testing and tyres, and you can't regulate that out - they'll always do it, and this is the biggest difference in cost betweeen a front runner and a mid fielder.
I say save your cash - don't bother with the cams - and just get out and ride!

As far as spectators go, i believe that we are on the way up. there were bigger numbers out at last nationals, and even at winter series, and we all hope to see that continue

Its also rather important that those guys running older bikes realise ( somewhat abundantly ) that you have to throw certain components at them due to stress hours / fatigue otherwise the cost saving argument gets very academic very quickly.

[Robert Taylor]

Thats the best bit of advice I have seen on this site.Far too often when working with the top tier teams have I seen them do nothing for 2-3 days but change the suspension constantly and in some cases get lost in the science of suspension set up,The best thing you can do is ride what youve got and adjust the suspension when and if you feel it needs it until you have a better understanding of how things work.Then when you upgrade to the good stuff at a later date you can give your supplier some reasonable feedback and get the results you desire quickly.All the suspension courses in the world wont help you.If you cant tell your technician what you require then youve got no show of getting the bike set up

Because thats what top tier teams do to optimise lap times, rider feel and tyre life, its no different in MotoGP and WSBK! And yes they get confused too and lose their direction. I can well remember my Swedish namesake Rob looking at his computer screen at three very distinctingly different damping curves and shaking his head in disbelief because his assigned rider ( Haga ) could not tell / feel the difference between any of them. Perhaps Yamaha WSBK team were running the wrong link ratio from their box of 32 options........This is the real world and I dont think we should be in constant denial. You have to do the hard yards to improve and why victimise those who have the means and the motivation to do so?
We have produced troubleshooting manuals that I am happy to e-mail out to all and sundry and we are quite prepared to run set up seminars for those who are motivated enough to learn more about suspension setup. If there is no or very lacklustre response then it must mean that we are mostly intent about wallowing around in relative ignorance?????????????????? ( forgive the pun )
We have Peter Goddard ( Ohlins WSBK head technician )here at the end of the year for a seminar for our most loyal Ohlins customers. But adding his knowledge that will be imparted we can follow on with further seminars through next year.
In response to your last sentences it is very often not possible to learn much with many stock suspension systems because very often you have to max out the settings to afford some form of control, a band aid at best. And Ive said it before and will say it again, the marketing ploy of ''fully adjustable race bred suspension'' is as big a lie as ( for example ) ''I did not have sex with that woman'' or ''its all about trust''.

[Robert Taylor]

Couldn't agree more mate. BUT heres the thing the nature of our sport means we want to WIN or at least stand a shit show in hell of winning.
I'm not saying there aren't a lot of guys who are happy just being there and competing and I say bloody fantastic for them. AND there arent guys who do a season on an older bike as a learning curve.
But most of us want a shit show in hell of winning.
--Hey what about a simple +3 class --still 600's and 1000's but must be 3 years old?

And others have quite correctly said that our population is too small, too small to keep adding classes ad infinitum. Thats why we already have more regulated lower cost feeder classes that still provide exciting racing

[Robert Taylor]

Club racing is alive and well if the Vic club winter series is anything to go by. On more than one occasion the superbike grid was over subscribed and the no-qualifiers had the option of making my clubmans class even more interesting. A few clubmans riders also progressed to suberbikes during the series. The street stock class was chocker as well, in fact most classes had full grids.

Given our small population I think we will have to accept that our elite class is always going to have a small number of riders at the pointy end - regardless of how level the playing field is. BUT I think we need to have some "level playing field" classes to identify those riders who could be at the pointy end given a chance. Also somewhere for people with modest ambitions and limited budgets to play.

Why are there so few pro twins racers ?

Exactly. The point is also lost that the two elite classes are also about more than the riders. These classes are a showcase for the manufacturers new models, in tandem with the competition between the specialist aftermarket suppliers. ECUs, exhaust sytems, tyres, suspension, fairings, footpegs and other appendages. In fact no different to other first world countries and in this country embraced by the top three motorcycle distributors who heavily support the National road race series. And while it may sound callous if riders dont measure up to the pace or have exceeded their shelf life then attrition occurs. At the elite level of any sport you have to work hard to get there and make sacrifices. Aspiration and motivation are desirable qualities
We all depend on each other and if you dilute it all too much it will degeneate into little better than club level racing. Im not deriding club level ( grassroots ) racing, Im saying that the industry ( and their employees )also has a large collective stake in motorcycle sport. That probably sounds capitalist and commercial, but those things generate employment and tax. And when it comes down to it many suppliers in this small country actually provide exceptional added value, more so than in other first world countries.
Let us not talk ourselves into third world mentality.

[Robert Taylor]

But theres the rub--35 or more entrys at club level and scratchin for 15 at national level.
So it aint a case of don't fix what aint broke. --It is broken
Maybee theres another way to breath life into the elete classes
Me Im happy in F3 and planning now for the 09/10 nats --

Have you not thought that travel costs have a lot to do with it? And 15 at Nationals compares pretty favourably per head of population with what you see on a WSBK grid. Just stating the obvious

[Robert Taylor]

Easy fix: 1 set per meeting.

How many fairings, footpeg brackets etc to go with that? The tyres would have to be very ''wooden'' to last and that inevtably means less grip, LESS RIDER FEEL and a greater preponderance for crashing. So bang goes an oversimplistic cost argument.

[Robert Taylor]

Extremely insightful, and hard to disagree with. I began racing in the early 90's and I'm pretty sure my wage got me a lot more racing then.
Whatever way you look at it, the higher level you want to compete at, the more it costs - exponetialy ! Going from midfield in any class and trying to compete at the front will probably double (or more) the cost involved.

Ive got to 100% concur with Slowpoke, he has thought this through thoroughly and the arguments are very very plausible.
Id like a more palatial home and a fancy car but I have to learn to walk before I can run. Part of the answer is to work harder for what I personally aspire to, rather than expecting everything to be as cheap as chips. Perhaps its time for many in this country ( not only a number of motorcycle racers ) to learn that and to aspire to build a better future ( pun and mindset totally intended )through more personal effort. No offence to anyone is intended for saying so, Im just saying that if you want to get anywhere in life then you should jolly well have to work for it!

[Sketchy_Racer]

How many fairings, footpeg brackets etc to go with that? The tyres would have to be very ''wooden'' to last and that inevtably means less grip, LESS RIDER FEEL and a greater preponderance for crashing. So bang goes an oversimplistic cost argument.

Lesser equipment and more 'wooden' or not like bubble gum tyres wont necessarily result in more crashes, nor will stock suspension.

It comes down to the rider and that person having an understand of what the bike is doing. Just because better tyres offer more grip, doesn't mean riders are not going to be pushing them to the limits just as hard as not so great tyres.

I am a bit lost as to why everyone has this idea that Stock suspension and Crap tyres instantly mean crashes! and I am yet to ever anyone show statistics of this.

One case where it seemed very much the opposite was when Jay got the new zx6r and raced and did very well at taupo on stock suspenders yet the next round after receiving the fancy equipment he crashed twice in one day, complaining of no feel what so ever and inconsistent grip.

Im not saying you can go as fast on lesser equipment, but i don't believe it is a safety issue. Tyre wear also it is quite evident that better equipment helps out.

at the end of the day it is up to the rider to learn and understand what level of grip is available and to work with what they have. If everyone is in the same boat, then it can make very interesting racing.

[Mishy]

No offence to anyone is intended for saying so, Im just saying that if you want to get anywhere in life then you should jolly well have to work for it!

:) You Protestant's are all the same !

[Mishy]

One case where it seemed very much the opposite was when Jay got the new zx6r and raced and did very well at taupo on stock suspenders yet the next round after receiving the fancy equipment he crashed twice in one day, complaining of no feel what so ever and inconsistent grip.

Yes, but 5 degrees of track temp on the day had a lot to do with it, and Jay was trying to go faster than the conditions would let him on a new and unsorted bike . . . . . . . .

Jay would certainly have had difficulty working with the stock rear end, and we knew that at Taupo before we changed to the TTX36, same as we found the limitations of the stock rear in less than 10 laps on the R6 he rode a while ago.

[Sketchy_Racer]

I realise there was more to it than just the shock, but also kind of proves my point that a rider can easily outride the limitations of fancy equipment just as easily as they can outride the limitations of stock?

Sorry to have to use Jay's unfortunate day there, But i feel it has some relevance.

Please don't think of me as someone trying to bring a product down or nay say to people with vast experience, I'm just trying to learn about this in an informed manner so I can form my own opinion of it. I will have a chance to learn about the limitations of stock suspenders at the end of december which will also help.

Cheers,
-Glen

[CHOPPA]

I realise there was more to it than just the shock, but also kind of proves my point that a rider can easily outride the limitations of fancy equipment just as easily as they can outride the limitations of stock?

Sorry to have to use Jay's unfortunate day there, But i feel it has some relevance.

Please don't think of me as someone trying to bring a product down or nay say to people with vast experience, I'm just trying to learn about this in an informed manner so I can form my own opinion of it. I will have a chance to learn about the limitations of stock suspenders at the end of december which will also help.

Cheers,
-Glen

After riding on a bike with ohlins cartridge forks over standard forks id never go back, i understand when riders talk about this 'feel' thing you can really push the front and feel the grip of the tyres better then the vague feeling you get from standard suspension. I could possibly go as fast on standard stuff but i wouldnt have the same confidence id just be relying on trust....

I dont like spending the money anymore then anyone else but i do like having good competitive gear, i choose to put the money in and scrimp in everything else in life cause at the moment thats my whole life...

[Robert Taylor]

I realise there was more to it than just the shock, but also kind of proves my point that a rider can easily outride the limitations of fancy equipment just as easily as they can outride the limitations of stock?

Sorry to have to use Jay's unfortunate day there, But i feel it has some relevance.

Please don't think of me as someone trying to bring a product down or nay say to people with vast experience, I'm just trying to learn about this in an informed manner so I can form my own opinion of it. I will have a chance to learn about the limitations of stock suspenders at the end of december which will also help.

Cheers,
-Glen

Some perspective and please excuse a little anger for having to expend time elaborating at length......... As a generalised statement the nature of forums is such that its all too easy to snipe from the sidelines when not being privy to the full context.
Point of fact different circuit and as I abundantly recall it was a bitterly cold day that drained the heat out of that induced into the tyres by the warmers.....even before the bikes rolled off the dummy grid onto the track proper. The tyres were well away from their ideal ''temperature window'', that being the predominant and over-riding reason for lack of feel ( and grip ) on that day. As I have been at pains to point out in other threads we in NZ often attempt to race in much colder conditions than riders in the northeren hemisphere, they ''shut down'' over the winter. Bear in mind that the tyres we source come from that hemisphere where the mass markets are and where they almost always race in much more agreeable temperatures.
Note that cold days at tracks like Manfield reflect in much slower lap times and because of relative lack of feel I hasten to add more crashing due to feel / grip deficiency than you will usually see at a Nationals round.....where the riders are going significantly faster and hanging it on the edge.
One very compelling reason why race riders prefer higher performance tyres and suspension is superior feel and feedback, and indeed the ability to readily dial in / optimise that feel. If the rider can feel more ''connected'' to the track that in itself can allow the rider to be more comfortable at the edge of traction and further minimise crashing.
Aside from the icy temps we did ( candidly ) take a while to dial in Jays suspension but walking away from a challenge was not in either my script or that of his team, who in the end event found that ride height geometry was one of the most critical factors allied to Jays unique style. History records that Jay finished as NZ#3 at the Nationals, due to his own ability but also because of relentless development of the suspension and interaction with a tyre company / distributor whose coalface involvement shames all others in the sport. The superb feel we dialed into the machine was light years better than the oem suspenders and our start gate position. And I attribute some of the improvement to lessons we learnt at pre season World Supersport testing with Katsu Fujiwara. ( as a footnote these bikes handled well but struggled all year due to horsepower deficiency )
I dont see any committment from the makers of oem suspension to constantly improve suspension settings trackside at NZ racetracks????
The example of Nick Cole must also be cited. With all due respect to Nick his personal stats are challenging when setting up a bike. Nick initially tried firmer and firmer springs in the front end ( and in fact on the oem rear shock ) of his ZX6R to try and achieve some modicum of decent brake dive pitch control. To no avail. The rather dodgy oem cartridges in the ZX6R are a peened together sealed for life unit that makes it less than easy to respec them without some costly and time consuming re-engineering and parts.
Springs are about position ( oversimplistically ) and trying to afford much better regulation of brake pitch control by ( effectively ) over-springing is a very poor band -aid as it will have negative consequences in other areas such as side grip etc.
The solution was to fit our beloved Swedish cartridges with valving appropriate for Nick. In doing so this liberated Nicks performance and he is using those same settings to this day. A similiar situation applies to fitment of the TTX rear.
With a stock suspension formula that allows for only spring rate changes Nicks competitiveness would be seriously undermined as the damping would no longer be able to be calibrated to his body mass. In essence then it would hardly be a fair playing field! Springs are about ''base position'', damping is about controlling / regulating that rate of change of position. Sadly, its difficult to get many to accept that technical fact as too many people are locked into a 70s mentality. Brutally, ''ignorance is bliss''
Interestingly, when I attended an Ohlins distributor conference late last year one of the subject matters was that the new ZX6R and GSXR1000K7 were very difficult bikes to set up and there was a common consensus that the rear ride height on these only worked within a relatively narrow window. We too initially struggled with setup with Craig Shirriffs GSXR1000K7 and the testing is always done in the public eye and amongst those with a great Kiwi knocking machine attitude. Imagine ( as I have often wanted to do ) insisted on the riders carrying out their testing during actual VMCC race heats by cruising into the pits several times to make setting changes........... I also remember the uproar when Sam Smiths bike turned up with data logging transducers fitted. ( legal for VMCC ) Oh how the temerity of using modern technology to actually learn something!!!!!!!!! Thankfully we had Craigs bike very dialed come the Boxing day meeting and Robbie Bugden was able to come out of the blocks firing with the benefit of those very settings. If I can be so crass as to induge in self praise a lot of that is owed to sheer bloody minded persistence.
''Wooden'' control tyres and a stock suspension formula with ''band aids'' of allowable firmer springs only will by no means provide the level of feel and track connection, compared to proper tyres and well sorted race specific ( as opposed to road going ) oem suspension. Whats clever about winding the oem settings to max to try and afford some form of control? This is no longer the 1970s, issues are unavoidably more complex and so are the solutions. We have to accept that and go with it rather than negatively deriding so.
Sketchy, I am cursing you for expending so much time explaining all this but also thank you as I think Ive been able to offer a yet more plausible case why with higher powered machines oem suspension and theIr interaction with tyres is a folly and fraught with issues.

[Robert Taylor]

:) You Protestant's are all the same !

Thanks for the compliment!

[Robert Taylor]

I realise there was more to it than just the shock, but also kind of proves my point that a rider can easily outride the limitations of fancy equipment just as easily as they can outride the limitations of stock?

Sorry to have to use Jay's unfortunate day there, But i feel it has some relevance.

Please don't think of me as someone trying to bring a product down or nay say to people with vast experience, I'm just trying to learn about this in an informed manner so I can form my own opinion of it. I will have a chance to learn about the limitations of stock suspenders at the end of december which will also help.

Cheers,
-Glen

Do you have an invite? Pm me with your details

[Shaun]

Some perspective and please excuse a little anger for having to expend time elaborating at length......... As a generalised statement the nature of forums is such that its all too easy to snipe from the sidelines when not being privy to the full context.
Point of fact different circuit and as I abundantly recall it was a bitterly cold day that drained the heat out of that induced into the tyres by the warmers.....even before the bikes rolled off the dummy grid onto the track proper. The tyres were well away from their ideal ''temperature window'', that being the predominant and over-riding reason for lack of feel ( and grip ) on that day. As I have been at pains to point out in other threads we in NZ often attempt to race in much colder conditions than riders in the northeren hemisphere, they ''shut down'' over the winter. Bear in mind that the tyres we source come from that hemisphere where the mass markets are and where they almost always race in much more agreeable temperatures.
Note that cold days at tracks like Manfield reflect in much slower lap times and because of relative lack of feel I hasten to add more crashing due to feel / grip deficiency than you will usually see at a Nationals round.....where the riders are going significantly faster and hanging it on the edge.
One very compelling reason why race riders prefer higher performance tyres and suspension is superior feel and feedback, and indeed the ability to readily dial in / optimise that feel. If the rider can feel more ''connected'' to the track that in itself can allow the rider to be more comfortable at the edge of traction and further minimise crashing.
Aside from the icy temps we did ( candidly ) take a while to dial in Jays suspension but walking away from a challenge was not in either my script or that of his team, who in the end event found that ride height geometry was one of the most critical factors allied to Jays unique style. History records that Jay finished as NZ#3 at the Nationals, due to his own ability but also because of relentless development of the suspension and interaction with a tyre company / distributor whose coalface involvement shames all others in the sport. The superb feel we dialed into the machine was light years better than the oem suspenders and our start gate position. And I attribute some of the improvement to lessons we learnt at pre season World Supersport testing with Katsu Fujiwara. ( as a footnote these bikes handled well but struggled all year due to horsepower deficiency )
I dont see any committment from the makers of oem suspension to constantly improve suspension settings trackside at NZ racetracks????
The example of Nick Cole must also be cited. With all due respect to Nick his personal stats are challenging when setting up a bike. Nick initially tried firmer and firmer springs in the front end ( and in fact on the oem rear shock ) of his ZX6R to try and achieve some modicum of decent brake dive pitch control. To no avail. The rather dodgy oem cartridges in the ZX6R are a peened together sealed for life unit that makes it less than easy to respec them without some costly and time consuming re-engineering and parts.
Springs are about position ( oversimplistically ) and trying to afford much better regulation of brake pitch control by ( effectively ) over-springing is a very poor band -aid as it will have negative consequences in other areas such as side grip etc.
The solution was to fit our beloved Swedish cartridges with valving appropriate for Nick. In doing so this liberated Nicks performance and he is using those same settings to this day. A similiar situation applies to fitment of the TTX rear.
With a stock suspension formula that allows for only spring rate changes Nicks competitiveness would be seriously undermined as the damping would no longer be able to be calibrated to his body mass. In essence then it would hardly be a fair playing field! Springs are about ''base position'', damping is about controlling / regulating that rate of change of position. Sadly, its difficult to get many to accept that technical fact as too many people are locked into a 70s mentality. Brutally, ''ignorance is bliss''
Interestingly, when I attended an Ohlins distributor conference late last year one of the subject matters was that the new ZX6R and GSXR1000K7 were very difficult bikes to set up and there was a common consensus that the rear ride height on these only worked within a relatively narrow window. We too initially struggled with setup with Craig Shirriffs GSXR1000K7 and the testing is always done in the public eye and amongst those with a great Kiwi knocking machine attitude. Imagine ( as I have often wanted to do ) insisted on the riders carrying out their testing during actual VMCC race heats by cruising into the pits several times to make setting changes........... I also remember the uproar when Sam Smiths bike turned up with data logging transducers fitted. ( legal for VMCC ) Oh how the temerity of using modern technology to actually learn something!!!!!!!!! Thankfully we had Craigs bike very dialed come the Boxing day meeting and Robbie Bugden was able to come out of the blocks firing with the benefit of those very settings. If I can be so crass as to induge in self praise a lot of that is owed to sheer bloody minded persistence.
''Wooden'' control tyres and a stock suspension formula with ''band aids'' of allowable firmer springs only will by no means provide the level of feel and track connection, compared to proper tyres and well sorted race specific ( as opposed to road going ) oem suspension. Whats clever about winding the oem settings to max to try and afford some form of control? This is no longer the 1970s, issues are unavoidably more complex and so are the solutions. We have to accept that and go with it rather than negatively deriding so.
Sketchy, I am cursing you for expending so much time explaining all this but also thank you as I think Ive been able to offer a yet more plausible case why with higher powered machines oem suspension and theIr interaction with tyres is a folly and fraught with issues.



Good effort, vast explanation, even though it is not the 70's as you say, could you explain how all the riders/racers of that time, managed to learn how to race a bike safely and as succesfully as lots of them did, using the STD stuff, and Springs, and Oil only as there mods?

[Robert Taylor]

Good effort, vast explanation, even though it is not the 70's as you say, could you explain how all the riders/racers of that time, managed to learn how to race a bike safely and as succesfully as lots of them did, using the STD stuff, and Springs, and Oil only as there mods?

I believe Ive explained this more than thoroughly in other media ( at least ) Maybe in here also but Im too tired to dredge at present or to launch into a further lengthy parrallell to ''War and Peace'' Check out immediate back issues of BRM magazine and an upcoming one that replies to a poorly researched argument by Wayne List.
Please be assured that I am not wholly knocking a controlled ( lower horsepower )class, but in all fairness am pointing out the technical limitations that are not so obvious to so many.

[FROSTY]

Just to clarify this Robert So you are saying that we in NZ race in temperatures people in the northern hemasphere dont race in.
Temperatures in Taupo diddn't actually get cold did they??

[enigma51]

Im yet to see a an average rider fit ohlins/WP/Penske get it setup for him or her and go 2 - 3 seconds faster around a track.


Shaun did some work on my stock suspension (Few clicks this way and that way) and I didnt get much faster but got better feedback from the bike and defintly better tyre wear........


Now lets get back on topic about frosty's post.

[Shaun]

I believe Ive explained this more than thoroughly in other media ( at least ) Maybe in here also but Im too tired to dredge at present or to launch into a further lengthy parrallell to ''War and Peace'' Check out immediate back issues of BRM magazine and an upcoming one that replies to a poorly researched argument by Wayne List.
Please be assured that I am not wholly knocking a controlled ( lower horsepower )class, but in all fairness am pointing out the technical limitations that are not so obvious to so many.



I see where you are coming from Rob, BUT I am also doing the same as you in a strange way with this thread, I am telling people that STD does work OK?

It is deffinately NOT as good as Ohlins Penske etc, but the std stuff can be modified Springs Oil, and this alone will improve the ride 50% I believe as a rider myself

[scrivy]

er..... can I say I've adjusted my suspension 3 times in the last 20 years.......
Still set lap records, still slid everywhere.......

As for riding to the limit on standard gear, I used to get off my GSX1229 with good gear and race tyres, and onto my X5 200cc on ching shin tyres and the worst suspension on the world, and go full tit around Baypark on cold tyres. You learnt to ride hard to the limitations of your gear. Never crashed the phucker either, but had the thing at 30 degree sideways all the time!!
Eh Sidecar Bob!!

Having old standard shit gear may mean you can ride it over its intended limits, but it does hone your skills too!!! And best bit is, its BLOODY FUN!! :2thumbsup

[sidecar bob]

I can well remember my Swedish namesake Rob looking at his computer screen at three very distinctingly different damping curves and shaking his head in disbelief because his assigned rider ( Haga ) could not tell / feel the difference between any of them.

Similarly, i cant understand why someone spends 40k plus on a 1098 or any other leading brand of superbike & gets the forks re valved the following week.
Are Ducati, or any other top end manufacturer that far off the mark that an average road rider finds a bike of that calibre flawed? or do people need to do this more to gain false confidence in their abilities, & can they actually tell the difference before & after?
A guy was telling me a while back that he needed to have the forks on his fireblade re valved, i asked him what grade of oil he had in them & he had no idea.

[Shaun]

Just to clarify this Robert So you are saying that we in NZ race in temperatures people in the northern hemasphere dont race in.
Temperatures in Taupo diddn't actually get cold did they??



Taupo Track temp is BAD! The ground stays very cold there, even in summer! It is similar down in Invercargill RE track temp, it is also very cold, which helps to destroy your tyres.

I have always gone up by 1 kg on the rear spring, to keep my tyres alive down there, and Taupo is the Very same.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Robert Taylor
I can well remember my Swedish namesake Rob looking at his computer screen at three very distinctingly different damping curves and shaking his head in disbelief because his assigned rider ( Haga ) could not tell / feel the difference between any of them.



Perhaps they need me as a test rider for them

I remember being able to tell my technician exactually what was going on, ( and he was very impressed I seem to recall) Even before the Dyno arrived:first:

[scrivy]

I tell Sidecar Bob if my tyre pressures down by 1 PSI............... :oi-grr:
Honest......... :shutup:

[svr]

Good effort, vast explanation, even though it is not the 70's as you say, could you explain how all the riders/racers of that time, managed to learn how to race a bike safely and as succesfully as lots of them did, using the STD stuff, and Springs, and Oil only as there mods?

Exactly.
Surely the problem is that we for some reason we are not attracting / producing decent numbers of young riders who can road race motorcycles at their performance limit (even if that is relatively low) i.e. the fundamental skill set of road racing, which has to be learnt early.
It's of no use to say `well, you kids just need to work harder and save up so you can ride technically superior equipment', that's just reducing the talent available.

[Sketchy_Racer]

After riding on a bike with ohlins cartridge forks over standard forks id never go back, i understand when riders talk about this 'feel' thing you can really push the front and feel the grip of the tyres better then the vague feeling you get from standard suspension. I could possibly go as fast on standard stuff but i wouldnt have the same confidence id just be relying on trust....

I dont like spending the money anymore then anyone else but i do like having good competitive gear, i choose to put the money in and scrimp in everything else in life cause at the moment thats my whole life...

Cheers for that man, It's the sort of first hand experience from a rider I want to hear about. :2thumbsup

[Sketchy_Racer]

Some perspective and please excuse a little anger for having to expend time elaborating at length.........

Snip.....


Sketchy, I am cursing you for expending so much time explaining all this but also thank you as I think Ive been able to offer a yet more plausible case why with higher powered machines oem suspension and theIr interaction with tyres is a folly and fraught with issues.

Sorry for making you expend so much of your precious time for that Robert, but I really appreciate the insight you've given me there. Very interesting and valid points.

Cheers,

-Glen

[Sketchy_Racer]

Exactly.
Surely the problem is that we for some reason we are not attracting / producing decent numbers of young riders who can road race motorcycles at their performance limit (even if that is relatively low) i.e. the fundamental skill set of road racing, which has to be learnt early.
It's of no use to say `well, you kids just need to work harder and save up so you can ride technically superior equipment', that's just reducing the talent available.

Agreed.

I believe we have the calibre of young (define young?) riders out there at the moment that just haven't received the support they need to get anywhere with it.
I am all for the motto "If you really want something you will work for it" But that is only applicable to a certain point.
It is unreasonable for a 16 year old to have to try and fund a race bike on hit own. A 16 year old isn't even allowed the responsibility to buy alcohol but there is a responsibility put on him that he needs to fine 15k a year to race? It can be done, but with the general work ethic of a 16 year old, it quickly becomes "To hard basket".
Even at 18 (and using a situation similar to my own that I can understand) A teen has moved out of home, working as an apprentice, earning apprentice wages. Not only has he got all the responsibilities of day to day living, but Also supposed to find the money to fund his/her racing aspirations. All a bit far fetched to do it on your own. I do believe that even with support any young racer should be putting everything they can into the sport that others have invested thousands into.

I think that given out population, NZ has quite a sufficient backing, think of all the money that goes into motorcycle racing in NZ, I highly doubt that very many investing parties would receive back what they put in?

[roogazza]

Sorry Sketchy, but you have to buy a bike (or borrow one) and get results or do something flash to get noticed like everyone else !
I know its tough, but thats how it is ! There's probably a lot of old farts that would agree ?
You made a start and looked good in the rain recently, now carry it on at maybe some points rounds. Good luck. Gaz.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Sorry Sketchy, but you have to buy a bike (or borrow one) and get results or do something flash to get noticed like everyone else !
I know its tough, but thats how it is ! There's probably a lot of old farts that would agree ?
You made a start and looked good in the rain recently, now carry it on at maybe some points rounds. Good luck. Gaz.

Yes mate, I agree 100% I suppose those that show some real talent are the ones that get somewhere.
Thanks for the good luck, I hope to continue improving! :niceone:

[FROSTY]

Ok guys I think the whole point of this discussion has been totally overlooked.
In a nutshell -whats needed to get the sort of grid fullness that PMCC meetings attract at the nationals?
I was just floating an idea -allowing a second tier of racers on the grid with lower cost bikes.
Again really how long will the clubs be able to continue running national meetings if they dont have spectator support--they don't in most cases and they don't have decent entry levels to cover the costs of running a national level meeting.
In a nutshell guys isn't it a matter of survival ?

[Robert Taylor]

Just to clarify this Robert So you are saying that we in NZ race in temperatures people in the northern hemasphere dont race in.
Temperatures in Taupo diddn't actually get cold did they??

YES! And Shaun has already clarified the Taupo situation very well.

[Robert Taylor]

Im yet to see a an average rider fit ohlins/WP/Penske get it setup for him or her and go 2 - 3 seconds faster around a track.


Shaun did some work on my stock suspension (Few clicks this way and that way) and I didnt get much faster but got better feedback from the bike and defintly better tyre wear........


Now lets get back on topic about frosty's post.

Actually over stock 1 to up to 3 seconds per lap faster would be pretty close to the reality. By fitting well sorted shock and cartridges.

[Robert Taylor]

er..... can I say I've adjusted my suspension 3 times in the last 20 years.......
Still set lap records, still slid everywhere.......

As for riding to the limit on standard gear, I used to get off my GSX1229 with good gear and race tyres, and onto my X5 200cc on ching shin tyres and the worst suspension on the world, and go full tit around Baypark on cold tyres. You learnt to ride hard to the limitations of your gear. Never crashed the phucker either, but had the thing at 30 degree sideways all the time!!
Eh Sidecar Bob!!

Having old standard shit gear may mean you can ride it over its intended limits, but it does hone your skills too!!! And best bit is, its BLOODY FUN!! :2thumbsup

Just imagine then how much faster you could go with high end shock absorbers and lots of testing to develop the settings. Exactly what Shaun Harris and I were doing years ago and slaughtering the opposition. In my book you make the winning margin as big as possible. Thats the aim of any technician and racer trying to win a championship, over and above the enjoyment of racing.

[Robert Taylor]

Similarly, i cant understand why someone spends 40k plus on a 1098 or any other leading brand of superbike & gets the forks re valved the following week.
Are Ducati, or any other top end manufacturer that far off the mark that an average road rider finds a bike of that calibre flawed? or do people need to do this more to gain false confidence in their abilities, & can they actually tell the difference before & after?
A guy was telling me a while back that he needed to have the forks on his fireblade re valved, i asked him what grade of oil he had in them & he had no idea.

Simple ( and very very candidly ), on the 1098 the Italian test riders really dropped the ball with the settings. They dictated the settings, despite Ohlins technicians protesting that they werent good enough, especially in terms of pitch control. Similarly with the rear link ratio on that bike, its a real balls up.
Here in NZ we have a much higher ratio of bumpy roads and that exposes the limitations of those settings very very quickly.
Having revalved double digit numbers of these, ridden them myself ( and Id be slower on a track than Frosty! ) I can attest that the difference is VERY noticeable, also totally confirmed by my customers.
If I cannot make a difference and dont provide bang for buck then why ( for example ) would I deserve to be in business?????????????
I dont accept your last example, most road riders and racers that I work with also dont know what grade of oil is installed in their forks. For your information modern cartridge forks no longer rely on oil viscosity as a tuning parameter, except within a very narrow range that will affect the clicker positions. Valving/ revalving does that and accomplished road riders and racers very definitely CAN tell the difference. Grotty damper rod forks such as in SV650 etc do indeed still rely on oil viscosity as a huge tuning parameter
But dont trust my own judgement on this, I only work at this very coalface every day of the week. ( Excuse my cynicism )
Read Choppas post, he can tell the difference that well sorted cartridges make. As would any other racer that knows this only too damn well and is prepared to beat his head against a sea of ''doubting thomases'' that inhabit forums ( again please excuse my cynicism )
I find that the biggest disbelievers or those that are in denial are those that have never experienced the before and after of a thoroughly comprehensive suspension upgrade. You have a right to be a skeptic but sometimes people are actually telling the truth.................

[Robert Taylor]

Originally Posted by Robert Taylor
I can well remember my Swedish namesake Rob looking at his computer screen at three very distinctingly different damping curves and shaking his head in disbelief because his assigned rider ( Haga ) could not tell / feel the difference between any of them.



Perhaps they need me as a test rider for them

I remember being able to tell my technician exactually what was going on, ( and he was very impressed I seem to recall) Even before the Dyno arrived:first:

Okay, ''ShockingShaun'' or ''ShocktestShaun'' A little bit kinder than ''Chainsaw Harris'' a few years back after comprehensively checking the rev limiter calibration on Manfields pit straight every lap of the ( part ) endurance race you did! Dididididididididididididi....kaboom

[sidecar bob]

Simple ( and very very candidly ), on the 1098 the Italian test riders really dropped the ball with the settings. They dictated the settings, despite Ohlins technicians protesting that they werent good enough, especially in terms of pitch control. Similarly with the rear link ratio on that bike, its a real balls up.
Here in NZ we have a much higher ratio of bumpy roads and that exposes the limitations of those settings very very quickly.
Having revalved double digit numbers of these, ridden them myself ( and Id be slower on a track than Frosty! ) I can attest that the difference is VERY noticeable, also totally confirmed by my customers.
If I cannot make a difference and dont provide bang for buck then why ( for example ) would I deserve to be in business?????????????
I dont accept your last example, most road riders and racers that I work with also dont know what grade of oil is installed in their forks. For your information modern cartridge forks no longer rely on oil viscosity as a tuning parameter, except within a very narrow range that will affect the clicker positions. Valving/ revalving does that and accomplished road riders and racers very definitely CAN tell the difference. Grotty damper rod forks such as in SV650 etc do indeed still rely on oil viscosity as a huge tuning parameter
But dont trust my own judgement on this, I only work at this very coalface every day of the week. ( Excuse my cynicism )
Read Choppas post, he can tell the difference that well sorted cartridges make. As would any other racer that knows this only too damn well and is prepared to beat his head against a sea of ''doubting thomases'' that inhabit forums ( again please excuse my cynicism )
I find that the biggest disbelievers or those that are in denial are those that have never experienced the before and after of a thoroughly comprehensive suspension upgrade. You have a right to be a skeptic but sometimes people are actually telling the truth.................

Thank you for a very informative & thorough reply as usual Robert.
I wasnt skeptical of your art, but did really wonder about the situation, paticularly with regard to the 1098, as i have heard of a few being done now.
It seems they actually are off the mark.
Quite sad that in 2008 such a respected manufacturer with a long racing pedigree can still miss the boat.
I in no way infered that you didnt make a difference or provide bang for buck, there is absolutely no doubt in the motorcycling community whatsoever that you do, and are a well respected, generous contributor to motorcycling as a whole.
Im sure CHOPPA & the likes can tell the difference, but i was wondering more about average road riders riding at average road speeds being able to tell the difference.
It was you that raised the point that Haga couldnt tell the difference between three vastly different damping curves, not me, I merely wondered how many other folk couldnt tell the difference either.
Your emotion & passion for this topic are fantastic & while admirable, are only equalled by Brian Tamaki's passion for the Destiny Church, & it draws a very similar response if someone APPEARS to be a disbeilever.
As a specalist & leading authority myself for a top end product, for over fifteen years, i can fully relate to where you are coming from & the emotion it produces if the product is called into question. My attitude when faced with that attitude now is "oh well, another idiot, that due to their own ignorance, will never enjoy the benifits of this awesome quality product" Likewise, i will never be forced to deal with the same idiot as a client, is saves a lot of angst at both ends.

[cowpoos]

Incorrect on account of the tyre bill alone.

I would support a production based superbike class that runs the current rules...except...a control tyre...with only one set for the whole meeting. qualifying and races.

It would make a large variety of bike compeditive for many different atributes!! and challange racers skill,judgment and setup skills more...than how much it would cost to build there bikes..

any production series which doesn't allow suspension modification away form factory internals, rear shocks is a crock of shit...all it does is promote crashes...tyre expense...and teach people how to ride bad handling unbalanced bikes craply...

And for the people that argue that it will improve your riding....piss off it will...back in the old days when tyres were as shit as suspension..maybe...these days tyres are so grippy...that road bias suspesion IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!

[Robert Taylor]

Exactly.
Surely the problem is that we for some reason we are not attracting / producing decent numbers of young riders who can road race motorcycles at their performance limit (even if that is relatively low) i.e. the fundamental skill set of road racing, which has to be learnt early.
It's of no use to say `well, you kids just need to work harder and save up so you can ride technically superior equipment', that's just reducing the talent available.

If we could attract more Choppas and Johnie ''Berserkharts'' from MX that would be a positive. These guys have been a very welcome addition to the sport.
For the record I personally help a lot of people with set up advice at all levels irrespective of level of equipment and do not engage ( at all ) in a hard sell approach. If people ask, I help and its not ''you need to buy my suspension''. In fact many lessons that we have learnt by working with top echelon equipment we have been able to apply to everyday suspension setting techniques, at low or no cost to the end user. FACT. There is actually a level of benefit to everyone.

[Robert Taylor]

Ok guys I think the whole point of this discussion has been totally overlooked.
In a nutshell -whats needed to get the sort of grid fullness that PMCC meetings attract at the nationals?
I was just floating an idea -allowing a second tier of racers on the grid with lower cost bikes.
Again really how long will the clubs be able to continue running national meetings if they dont have spectator support--they don't in most cases and they don't have decent entry levels to cover the costs of running a national level meeting.
In a nutshell guys isn't it a matter of survival ?

Broadly, yes, yes, yes and yes. You just have to be mindful of the negative technical issues that will occur.

[cowpoos]

How many fairings, footpeg brackets etc to go with that? The tyres would have to be very ''wooden'' to last and that inevtably means less grip, LESS RIDER FEEL and a greater preponderance for crashing. So bang goes an oversimplistic cost argument.

not neccicarilly...Andrew and myself had an discusion, not that long ago.
He was more than comfortable with running one set of tyres for qualifiing and every race in a weekend. and I agree...good suspension provides the feel required to ride hard on any tyres its set up for...bad suspension proveds bugger all for any tyres!!

[Billy]

any production series which doesn't allow suspension modification away form factory internals, rear shocks is a crock of shit...all it does is promote crashes...tyre expense...and teach people how to ride bad handling unbalanced bikes craply...

And for the people that argue that it will improve your riding....piss off it will...back in the old days when tyres were as shit as suspension..maybe...these days tyres are so grippy...that road bias suspesion IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!![/QUOTE]

So this being the case,Explain to me in simple english.Why is it then that it has taken the TOP pro twins riders over a year to better the times achieved by the top 250 proddy riders back as far as 1991 on their shitty tyres and stock suspension and which class did international riders of the calibre of Aaron Slight,Andrew Stroud,Brian Bernard,Simon Crafar,Chris Haldane,Dave Cole ....... learn their racecraft in and the BASICS of suspension set up ???

[JayRacer37]

Lesser equipment and more 'wooden' or not like bubble gum tyres wont necessarily result in more crashes, nor will stock suspension.

It comes down to the rider and that person having an understand of what the bike is doing. Just because better tyres offer more grip, doesn't mean riders are not going to be pushing them to the limits just as hard as not so great tyres.

I am a bit lost as to why everyone has this idea that Stock suspension and Crap tyres instantly mean crashes! and I am yet to ever anyone show statistics of this.

One case where it seemed very much the opposite was when Jay got the new zx6r and raced and did very well at taupo on stock suspenders yet the next round after receiving the fancy equipment he crashed twice in one day, complaining of no feel what so ever and inconsistent grip.

Im not saying you can go as fast on lesser equipment, but i don't believe it is a safety issue. Tyre wear also it is quite evident that better equipment helps out.

at the end of the day it is up to the rider to learn and understand what level of grip is available and to work with what they have. If everyone is in the same boat, then it can make very interesting racing.


To expand a bit further on those days,

In taupo we got one qual session in the dry(ish) and one race in the wet(ish). I used the stock, RaceAttack Road' that I had run the bike in on for both these races, and we fitted the TTX shock after the qaul, from memory.

I think I lapped faster in that damp race than I did in qualifying, and I was comfortable to go 2sec a lap faster than anyone else that didn't crash was prepared to go. And it was easy, I had great feel from the rear end, and didn't push the front hard. The road comp tyres also meant temp was less of an issue.

And round two, we fitted the cartridges in the morning, and also soft comp tyres. This was before we were as aware of the temprature borders for the soft compound, something we learned quickly. My highside early on was pushing harder than I should have been (I had just passed into the lead) and was a bit dumb. The second crash was due to a brain malfunction, and a forget of the lwer temprature (the sun had just come off that part o the track. I was the first to crash in the spot, but...4, 5, 6(?) others did it in the same race, one three times.

Really, I would never, ever say that stock suspension can even come close to what Ohlins and other can provide. In as much as control and predictablity its a huge advantage. Once we figured the temp thing out, we got a handle on the bike and its....limitations? and i'm proud to say that the two crashes that day were the only one's I had on that bike, we finished #3 NZ without another fall which was just great.

I also agree with all of Robert's points. Sure we could race on some road tyres and stock suspension, and the bikes would cost marginally less to prepare. But the crash bill would eevitably be higher, and the real costs of an NZ season would be the same. This is the travel and accomdation...this can easy cost the same as preping a bike.

I disagree with your outlook of "It comes down to the rider and that person having an understand of what the bike is doing. Just because better tyres offer more grip, doesn't mean riders are not going to be pushing them to the limits just as hard as not so great tyres". Although the better riders will have more fee and less chance of crashing, the crashes will still be more abundant, because after five race laps, the stock suspenison and wood tyres become hugely unpredictable, and something that was safe one lap ago will now lead you to pitfall. The most important thing in keeping a bike upright at the head of a national class is feel, if you take that away from us I hope your bringing more ambulances.

To be honest, I would love to see NZ racing more on a par with international series. Wouldn't it be great to do a NZ 600SP champoinship, and then be able to take that bike to Aus and know your at the same level...at the moment you can't, another reason it's hard to get an NZ'er over there. Whats a few K more to set up a 600, your putting way more that that in again when you take it to a track, and it would give you a season more to get used to the faster, more peaky, 'racebike' feel of a bike tuned like this. And a 600 without this extra cost is still going to be in the region of competitive to anyone doing it for fun/coming up from club level/taking it to the big boys.

Jay

[Shaun]

I would support a production based superbike class that runs the current rules...except...a control tyre...with only one set for the whole meeting. qualifying and races.

It would make a large variety of bike compeditive for many different atributes!! and challange racers skill,judgment and setup skills more...than how much it would cost to build there bikes..



And for the people that argue that it will improve your riding....piss off it will...back in the old days when tyres were as shit as suspension..maybe...these days tyres are so grippy...that road bias suspesion IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!



Sorry to say this Cowpoos, But you are only an arm chair learner!

I QUOTE YOU

"any production series which doesn't allow suspension modification away form factory internals, rear shocks is a crock of shit...all it does is promote crashes...tyre expense...and teach people how to ride bad handling unbalanced bikes craply..."

This is a total bollocks LISTEN to me post once again, you are learning about suspension and how it works a ok,but this attitude needs to change mate, you have been on here for ever, and a lot of people read what you say, so go and read what you have said about a 1set of tyres SB class in NZ, and then re read your post that I have quoted above

Get it together man, or carry on being wrong, your choice

[Shaun]

I would support a production based superbike class that runs the current rules...except...a control tyre...with only one set for the whole meeting. qualifying and races.

It would make a large variety of bike compeditive for many different atributes!! and challange racers skill,judgment and setup skills more...than how much it would cost to build there bikes..

any production series which doesn't allow suspension modification away form factory internals, rear shocks is a crock of shit...all it does is promote crashes...tyre expense...and teach people how to ride bad handling unbalanced bikes craply...

And for the people that argue that it will improve your riding....piss off it will...back in the old days when tyres were as shit as suspension..maybe...these days tyres are so grippy...that road bias suspesion IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!



Andrew Stroud won races in New Zealand 2 years ago on standard GSXR 600 shock ( Ok it was wet)

[Shaun]

not neccicarilly...Andrew and myself had an discusion, not that long ago.
He was more than comfortable with running one set of tyres for qualifiing and every race in a weekend. and I agree...good suspension provides the feel required to ride hard on any tyres its set up for...bad suspension proveds bugger all for any tyres!!




I gaurantee you have mis understood some thing in the conversation with Andrew, myself and him had the same talk recently

It would Be incredibly STUPID to use the current engine tune rules in SB and only one set of tyres for practice, qualify, and races

one set for 3 days on a 185+ HP bike, bahahahaha, go get a tractor dude

[Robert Taylor]

Andrew Stroud won races in New Zealand 2 years ago on standard GSXR 600 shock ( Ok it was wet)

Factor 1 Andrews brilliance, I dont take anything away from him and as a test rider he is brilliant, as S Harris often is.

Factor 2 the wet settings better suited the soft damping and Andrew likes a chopper type geometry. He made it work for him and its less clear that anyone else would have.

Factor 3 the other riders were not on their game and should have been

Factor 4 if the other brand of suspension he was running that year had a good wet setting he may have run that.

Ho hum!

[Robert Taylor]

any production series which doesn't allow suspension modification away form factory internals, rear shocks is a crock of shit...all it does is promote crashes...tyre expense...and teach people how to ride bad handling unbalanced bikes craply...

And for the people that argue that it will improve your riding....piss off it will...back in the old days when tyres were as shit as suspension..maybe...these days tyres are so grippy...that road bias suspesion IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!

So this being the case,Explain to me in simple english.Why is it then that it has taken the TOP pro twins riders over a year to better the times achieved by the top 250 proddy riders back as far as 1991 on their shitty tyres and stock suspension and which class did international riders of the calibre of Aaron Slight,Andrew Stroud,Brian Bernard,Simon Crafar,Chris Haldane,Dave Cole ....... learn their racecraft in and the BASICS of suspension set up ???[/QUOTE]

We all knew less in those days about setup including the riders. SV650s are still not a race bike, they are a friggin heavy old commuter bike with lazy geometry and poor weight distribution for a racebike. That they go as relatively fast as they do is still a revelation.

[scrivy]

one set for 3 days on a 185+ HP bike, bahahahaha, go get a tractor dude

Oh how lame dude...... only 185????
How about over 220++ HP on one rear tyre for 4 meetings??? You guys are soft........ :shifty::Punk::laugh:

Oh yeah, did I mention the worst suspension ever too......... :shutup:
and the heaviest one in the top 6 machines out there..... :doh: (without the weight of the passengers...)

[svr]

So this being the case,Explain to me in simple english.Why is it then that it has taken the TOP pro twins riders over a year to better the times achieved by the top 250 proddy riders back as far as 1991 on their shitty tyres and stock suspension and which class did international riders of the calibre of Aaron Slight,Andrew Stroud,Brian Bernard,Simon Crafar,Chris Haldane,Dave Cole ....... learn their racecraft in and the BASICS of suspension set up ???

We all knew less in those days about setup including the riders. SV650s are still not a race bike, they are a friggin heavy old commuter bike with lazy geometry and poor weight distribution for a racebike. That they go as relatively fast as they do is still a revelation.[/QUOTE]

Having raced both eras on both bikes I'd say they're pretty even, but 250s would be quicker on modern suspension and tires.
250s produced so many good riders because they were cheap and easy to get into (high accessibility, low entrance barriers). Many chopped in their dirt bikes for 250 and went racing aged 17-18 (even thats too late now though). People like John Hepburn and Mike McCutcheon stayed in the class until they won it - what was the point in moving up? The kids comming in got to ride against quality riders and found out pretty quick 1. how fast their bike could and should go and 2. if they had what it took.
There's no need to dumb down the 2 premier classes but we do need motocrossers etc. making the jump earlier, and in decent numbers. PT probably isn't the ideal class because the bikes are a bit `soft' and easy to ride, it's actually expensive to build a good PT from scratch, and there is little prestige in a class with little support mixed in F3 mid-pack. Should this be the feeder class? We haven't seen its potential yet - maybe if there were 5 class experienced riders racing against 5 really fast youngsters with the balance of 30 odd allsorts having a go we'd be singing it's praises and it'd produce the goods as intended.
Something's missing which is Frosty's point, I guess.

[Shaun]

We all knew less in those days about setup including the riders. SV650s are still not a race bike, they are a friggin heavy old commuter bike with lazy geometry and poor weight distribution for a racebike. That they go as relatively fast as they do is still a revelation.

Having raced both eras on both bikes I'd say they're pretty even, but 250s would be quicker on modern suspension and tires.
250s produced so many good riders because they were cheap and easy to get into (high accessibility, low entrance barriers). Many chopped in their dirt bikes for 250 and went racing aged 17-18 (even thats too late now though). People like John Hepburn and Mike McCutcheon stayed in the class until they won it - what was the point in moving up? The kids comming in got to ride against quality riders and found out pretty quick 1. how fast their bike could and should go and 2. if they had what it took.
There's no need to dumb down the 2 premier classes but we do need motocrossers etc. making the jump earlier, and in decent numbers. PT probably isn't the ideal class because the bikes are a bit `soft' and easy to ride, it's actually expensive to build a good PT from scratch, and there is little prestige in a class with little support mixed in F3 mid-pack. Should this be the feeder class? We haven't seen its potential yet - maybe if there were 5 class experienced riders racing against 5 really fast youngsters with the balance of 30 odd allsorts having a go we'd be singing it's praises and it'd produce the goods as intended.
Something's missing which is Frosty's point, I guess.[/QUOTE]



QUOTE

There is NO need to Dump down the 2 main classes?

another Quote


250s produced so many good riders because they were cheap and easy to get into (high accessibility, low entrance barriers).


So what are you actually saying?

Production racing was cheap, hense the grids were full back then!

Leave SB as is, it is the Premier class

Make the 600 much much more cost effective to get into, ie Production racing again.

[Shaun]

Okay, ''ShockingShaun'' or ''ShocktestShaun'' A little bit kinder than ''Chainsaw Harris'' a few years back after comprehensively checking the rev limiter calibration on Manfields pit straight every lap of the ( part ) endurance race you did! Dididididididididididididi....kaboom



Haha, every lap for 3HRS and 51 minutes, wot a wanker I as or are?

I was in the lead of that 4 hour race by 1 full lap, and did the whole race on my on, untill I blew the motor BUGGER

[Billy]

So what are you actually saying?

Production racing was cheap, hense the grids were full back then!

Leave SB as is, it is the Premier class

Make the 600 much much more cost effective to get into, ie Production racing again.

Either 600s or pro twins.What a good idea,Guess that means it probably wont happen then aye!!

[cowpoos]

Andrew Stroud won races in New Zealand 2 years ago on standard GSXR 600 shock ( Ok it was wet)

in the wet...with other riders off thier game as Robert states...Similar to Johan bruns winning wanga's with stock rear shock many years ago...soft settings suited the the rear shock in the wet.




This is a total bollocks LISTEN to me post once again, you are learning about suspension and how it works a ok,but this attitude needs to change mate, you have been on here for ever, and a lot of people read what you say, so go and read what you have said about a 1set of tyres SB class in NZ, and then re read your post that I have quoted above

Get it together man, or carry on being wrong, your choice

For a start shaun...Yourself and I are at a level that we should not use slader at each other if we disagree...we are well above that! and it is far from total bollocks!!

Your perception on suspension is massively different to someone like myself..your average Japanesse superbike is setup in a weight range closer to yours..which is a weight range far far away from my size than yours..and I believe we would have completely different riding styles...you don't have the dirt riding back round that I have..which is usually conclusive with point and squirt type racing...heavy on the brakes,hard on the gas...[which I'm sorry...I really don't need to explain this to you I know...but as other will read and judge my point of view I decided to discribe it]..stock suspension is shit for this style of racing...infact the ak20 cartridges don't like it either..robert has tryed to find something that would work for myself..and found the product wanting..and through lack of funds I didn't upgrade as per his advice..
So as I have different view on what or how I feel [and feel being the operative word] a bike should handle does not in anyway make me wrong...so how can I carry on being wrong??

Re my post reguarding one set of tyres for racing...why the hell not?? you can either make a hugly powerful bike or a low powered bike!! you have so much traction and so much tyres...make them last at your peril. being able to control a bike maybe imperitive in getting anywhere...which may favor the ex-dirt boys [you know where my allegence lay in that reguard] and the people that can set a bike up well and ride it hard reguardless of traction..BUT and a big BUT...through aftermarket suspension they will most importantly have good feel of what thier tyres are doing...rather than the vague feel a stock setup will produce...Feel is paramount you must agree with this...well it comes to confidence? and besides this all shaun...I am intitled to an opinion...as is everyone..like yourself.


I gaurantee you have mis understood some thing in the conversation with Andrew, myself and him had the same talk recently

It would Be incredibly STUPID to use the current engine tune rules in SB and only one set of tyres for practice, qualify, and races

one set for 3 days on a 185+ HP bike, bahahahaha, go get a tractor dude


No..I did not misunderstand him at all...he made the statement/point...and after some discussion..my point of view changed and I did tend to agree with him. and we not talking about three days of constant use..qualifying and a couple of race's...

[scrivy]

my size than yours..
back round that I have..
BUT and a big BUT...
Feel is paramount you must agree with this...

I like BIG BUTTS and I cannot lie.............. :banana:
:done:

[CHOPPA]

I gaurantee you have mis understood some thing in the conversation with Andrew, myself and him had the same talk recently

It would Be incredibly STUPID to use the current engine tune rules in SB and only one set of tyres for practice, qualify, and races

one set for 3 days on a 185+ HP bike, bahahahaha, go get a tractor dude

I spoke to andrew yesterday and he said 1 set of tyres for qualifying and 1st race, he then said he would try to only do a couple of laps in qualifying so the tyres would last....

[CHOPPA]

Someone needs to do a test!

Get a good rider, a standard 600 and a setup supersport 600 go to Taupo or wherever put exactly the same tyres on and do 2 15 lap sessions on each bike and document tyre wear and lap times weather conditions etc possibly repeat at a couple of tracks and there will lie your answer surely?

[jrandom]

Someone needs to do a test!

Get a good rider, a standard 600 and a setup supersport 600 go to Taupo or wherever put exactly the same tyres on and do 2 15 lap sessions on each bike and document tyre wear and lap times weather conditions etc possibly repeat at a couple of tracks and there will lie your answer surely?

Put the idea to the boys at BRM.

[Robert Taylor]

Haha, every lap for 3HRS and 51 minutes, wot a wanker I as or are?

I was in the lead of that 4 hour race by 1 full lap, and did the whole race on my on, untill I blew the motor BUGGER

Yeah, you friggin idiot.

''To finish first you must first finish'' A very memorable quote from Jack Brabham after spinning out on the last corner of the last lap of the 1965 Monaco Grand Prix, whilst leading.

[Robert Taylor]

Either 600s or pro twins.What a good idea,Guess that means it probably wont happen then aye!!

And how would you police the suspension in a true production racing class?

[Robert Taylor]

I spoke to andrew yesterday and he said 1 set of tyres for qualifying and 1st race, he then said he would try to only do a couple of laps in qualifying so the tyres would last....

So where does the setup time occur? This makes too big an assumption that the setup is dialed before you even get to the track...........a rather forlorn hope at best. And little hope of development laps as well.

[Mishy]

Someone needs to do a test!

Get a good rider, a standard 600 and a setup supersport 600 go to Taupo or wherever put exactly the same tyres on and do 2 15 lap sessions on each bike and document tyre wear and lap times weather conditions etc possibly repeat at a couple of tracks and there will lie your answer surely?

Cool ! You swing the budget, I'll find a willing rider and bike . . . . . . . . :)

or - you could go on strong anecdotal evidence and save a heap of cash :)

We have tested a heap of tyres and shocks on Jay's ZX6's, and some of the info I have stored has relevance to this topic. We have used Conti Race Street on several occasions, and can document the difference in lap times at certain circuits on the same day - typically about 2 seconds a lap. Also, we have twice used stock suspension followed by fitting something better on the same day. The difference at manfeild on the '07 R6 we stole with just a shock change (stolen again !) was similar, at around 2 seconds a lap, and a total absence of the pumping that had appeared after 5 laps on the stock low milage item. The difference at Taupo on the ZX6 was (perhaps) even larger, with Jay being faster in worse conditions on the TTX36.

One point not made so far regarding the use of One set of tyres per race day is that (obviously, and stated earlier) this would force riders to use less grippy tyres. What isn't clear to most is that these tyres don't cope well with very high temperature, and will "smear", which is when the compound gets above it's operating coridor and can't hold onto itself - think hot chewing gum. This is bad juju for grip, and is what causes the slimy slippery feeling of an overheated tyre. I'm not sure I would be in favour of that, particularly on high output machines that induce so much heat into the rear tyre so easily.
We saw track temps of over 45deg C over Nationals on a consistant basis, so it's a point worth considering.

[CHOPPA]

So where does the setup time occur? This makes too big an assumption that the setup is dialed before you even get to the track...........a rather forlorn hope at best. And little hope of development laps as well.


Ill do every single lap of every practice and qualifying for practice yeah and just cause i love to ride! The reason andrew said that was just to enforce the qualifying rubber rule

[CHOPPA]

Cool ! You swing the budget, I'll find a willing rider and bike . . . . . . . . :)

or - you could go on strong anecdotal evidence and save a heap of cash :)

We have tested a heap of tyres and shocks on Jay's ZX6's, and some of the info I have stored has relevance to this topic. We have used Conti Race Street on several occasions, and can document the difference in lap times at certain circuits on the same day - typically about 2 seconds a lap. Also, we have twice used stock suspension followed by fitting something better on the same day. The difference at manfeild on the '07 R6 we stole with just a shock change (stolen again !) was similar, at around 2 seconds a lap, and a total absence of the pumping that had appeared after 5 laps on the stock low milage item. The difference at Taupo on the ZX6 was (perhaps) even larger, with Jay being faster in worse conditions on the TTX36.

One point not made so far regarding the use of One set of tyres per race day is that (obviously, and stated earlier) this would force riders to use less grippy tyres. What isn't clear to most is that these tyres don't cope well with very high temperature, and will "smear", which is when the compound gets above it's operating coridor and can't hold onto itself - think hot chewing gum. This is bad juju for grip, and is what causes the slimy slippery feeling of an overheated tyre. I'm not sure I would be in favour of that, particularly on high output machines that induce so much heat into the rear tyre so easily.
We saw track temps of over 45deg C over Nationals on a consistant basis, so it's a point worth considering.

These classes are not designed to cater for someone with jays experience, ill get a top mx rider for your test rider. They wont know whats good and whats bad they will just ride it

[Shaun]

Ill do every single lap of every practice and qualifying for practice yeah and just cause i love to ride! The reason andrew said that was just to enforce the qualifying rubber rule


He said it cause he;s old like me:scooter:

[Shaun]

And how would you police the suspension in a true production racing class?




EASY


Moto-Dynamix:spanking: Owns them:Police:

What you saying Willis?

[Shaun]

Ill do every single lap of every practice and qualifying for practice yeah and just cause i love to ride! The reason andrew said that was just to enforce the qualifying rubber rule


You watch how many of the pussies stay in the garage if it rains in PRACTICE sessions mate, way to funny:calm: I always thought Practice was for Practice:banana: Perhaps that was just for :girlfight: That did not matter:beer:

[wharfy]

Ill do every single lap of every practice and qualifying for practice yeah and just cause i love to ride! The reason andrew said that was just to enforce the qualifying rubber rule

I'm an ancient "re-born" clubmans racer but I did almost every session of each of the 4 practice days at Manfield for the VMCC winter series - mainly because I NEED THE PRACTICE. It also gave me a chance to dick with the tyre pressure. Of all the money I have spent on doing this series that $400 gave the best ROI. I am not sure I would say that if I had chewed out a set of tyers each practice though.
On one occasion I did skip the last session to preserve my tyres for the race day.
Ihave been using Conti sport attacks on my Hornet ( bout 100 HP at the wheel ) The current set were new for the aborted wet round 4 and have done 5 & 6 plus Greymouth and now I am riding them to work each day. :)

[Robert Taylor]

EASY


Moto-Dynamix:spanking: Owns them:Police:

What you saying Willis?

Hmmm, every single make and model that everyone wants to race? Dont think thats practical somehow..........

[Robert Taylor]

You watch how many of the pussies stay in the garage if it rains in PRACTICE sessions mate, way to funny:calm: I always thought Practice was for Practice:banana: Perhaps that was just for :girlfight: That did not matter:beer:

Got to give that to you, practicing in the pouring rain at Invergiggles a few years back ( refining a wet set up if required ) and I think you may have been the only rider on the track.

[cowpoos]

I like BIG BUTTS and I cannot lie.............. :banana:
:done:
feel is paramount!!


Do not...ever forget this point!!

[Shaun]

Hmmm, every single make and model that everyone wants to race? Dont think thats practical somehow..........




Single Producton class mate ie, 1 make! 1 shock, 1 Fork set up, one rear and front wheel and tyre etc etc:sunny:--Same Same Same

Way to simple? :Punk: Shut up Scrivy:soon:

I understand You, as We have known each other a long time, and I am guessing/Assuming that this post of yours is meant with direct interest But

SPC means just that! Simple and a quality way to help with the feed in victims ( For all of us buisness kinda people haha) to better Quality More exspensive set up bikes for the Current SP Class.

[FROSTY]

You watch how many of the pussies stay in the garage if it rains in PRACTICE sessions mate, way to funny:calm: I always thought Practice was for Practice:banana: Perhaps that was just for :girlfight: That did not matter:beer:
Ohh ferk does this mean U n me think alike-
Not that it did me much good but It was me on my own at levels last seasons wendsday practice.

[JayRacer37]

Someone needs to do a test!

Get a good rider, a standard 600 and a setup supersport 600 go to Taupo or wherever put exactly the same tyres on and do 2 15 lap sessions on each bike and document tyre wear and lap times weather conditions etc possibly repeat at a couple of tracks and there will lie your answer surely?

Done it man.

2006 R6 at manfeild.

STOCK stock, with RaceAttacks, 10 laps, first flier 1.12, best 1.11.9, down to high 12's or 13's after ten laps.

Ohlins rear shock, slightly lower gearing, and ten laps more bike knowledge, first flier 1.10.5, best 1.10.00, at the end, doing constant 1.10.2. With this setup by the end of the weekend I was doing 1.09.FA. This was before the resealing of Manfeild.

Jay

[wharfy]

Done it man.

2006 R6 at manfeild.

STOCK stock, with RaceAttacks, 10 laps, first flier 1.12, best 1.11.9, down to high 12's or 13's after ten laps.

Ohlins rear shock, slightly lower gearing, and ten laps more bike knowledge, first flier 1.10.5, best 1.10.00, at the end, doing constant 1.10.2. With this setup by the end of the weekend I was doing 1.09.FA. This was before the resealing of Manfeild.

Jay

That makes me feel a lot better about spending money on an Ohilns shock, I THOUGHT it made me quicker but had no hard data to back it up. Only a couple of track day's at Taupo with times from my GPS (one before and one after).
Of course - I A'INT no J Lawrence though ... :(