Just remember

[James Deuce]

It's perfectly acceptable to kill someone with a motor vehicle.

Do it with a hammer and it's murder. Drop a fridge off a third floor balcony by accident and it's manslaughter. Speed in a Nissan Skyline and it's an accident.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4742109a11.html

[Subike]

Have always believed that operating any vehicle outside of the boundries of the law and causing the death of another should be classed as a manslaughter offence.
So far in my own life, I have never injured another on the road, but that is not to say it may not happen to me.
Thats why I refuse to carry a pillion, I dont want to be responcible for their life if I fuck up.

[R6_kid]

So he's indoors for 10mths - unable to make a living as a building aprentice as he usually would, yet he has to pay the family $18k (is it rude if i LOL at that amount?) at $125/wk which he surely won't be able to pay if i he is not making a living.

Does that then mean that we, the taxpayer, then pick up the bill?
Was she only worth $18,000?

[Mom]

So very sad to read. And J2 I agree with you, it is not on that you can run someone down by "accident" and not have it called manslaughter! He did not mean for her to die, there for it is manslaughter, she dies as a result of his actions.

Heart goes out to all that knew her...particularly her Mom.

[Drum]

Shame on the judge. Shame on the government who passed the law. Shame on the young man involved. Shame on his friends for egging him on.

[Fatjim]

Funny, I said exactly the same thing today. Now to work out how to kill cagers with a bike!

[Kendog]

I don't expect answers to the following, just some things to think about.

Does manslaughter = guaranteed prison time? (I see no mention he wasn't charged with manslaughter in the article)

Would prison time make the victims family fee better?

Would prison time stop others from speeding and killing?

Would prison time deter this offender from speeding and killing more than his current sentence?

Would prison time change the offender for the worse?

Would you expect to go to prison if you killed someone while riding/driving?

[James Deuce]

So he's indoors for 10mths - unable to make a living as a building aprentice as he usually would, yet he has to pay the family $18k (is it rude if i LOL at that amount?) at $125/wk which he surely won't be able to pay if i he is not making a living.

Does that then mean that we, the taxpayer, then pick up the bill?
Was she only worth $18,000?

See that's the odd thing. The judge goes all bleeding heart about him being unable to socialise. However. He'll be doing his Community Service. People can visit him at will. He can use the phone, the Internet, and the TV at will.

It's not rude to lol at $18k. It's pointless to place a value on someone's life, and yet I vaguely remember people baying about reparation on this very site. The amount is an insult. The fact that it is visited weekly upon the family is doubly a punishment and an insult for them.

[riffer]

100% in agreement with you James.

[James Deuce]

I don't expect answers to the following, just some things to think about.

Does manslaughter = guaranteed prison time? (I see no mention he wasn't charged with manslaughter in the article)

Would prison time make the victims family fee better?

Would prison time stop others from speeding and killing?

Would prison time deter this offender from speeding and killing more than his current sentence?

Would prison time change the offender for the worse?

Would you expect to go to prison if you killed someone while riding/driving?

Justice isn't about any of those things. It is about applying accepted punishments for defined acts that are deemed to be at odds with the values of a particular society.

Ideally Justice is blind and deals only in facts.

However this case once again highlights to me that there is gap in our understanding when it comes to accepting personal responsibility for piloting a vehicle on roads that you share with other people. Not only that, killing someone with a vehicle is a lesser crime than killing someone with a stapler.

If you cross the centre line and kill someone with your truck, you may lose your license. You'll probably get trauma counselling. There's something not right with this picture.

It's not about vengeance, it is about applying Justice equally for a given crime.

[slimjim]

Have always believed that operating any vehicle outside of the boundries of the law and causing the death of another should be classed as a manslaughter offence.
So far in my own life, I have never injured another on the road, but that is not to say it may not happen to me.
Thats why I refuse to carry a pillion, I dont want to be responcible for their life if I fuck up.

dude..ya's gona fuck up some stage in life...so start living rather than been a worry-pussy...fuck otherwise your gona be a VERY FUCKING LONELY BIKER..:blank:

[FROSTY]

Ya known theres fuck all about the USA I agree with. But the available charge Vehicular manslaughter is definitely one thing I DO agree wth

[jrandom]

Not only that, killing someone with a vehicle is a lesser crime than killing someone with a stapler.

What about Lipene Sila, who rammed his car into a group of partygoers, killing two?

He was convicted of murder, and got a non-parole period of 17 years.

That is precisely how he would have been treated if he'd walloped someone with a hammer and killed them.

What about Garth Porter, who went out hunting, thought his daughter's boyfriend was a deer, and shot and killed him?

He was convicted of careless use of a firearm causing death, and sentenced to five months home detention and 250 hours community service.

Was that a stiffer penalty than he would have received if he'd 'accidentally' hit the boy with a car and killed him? I think not.

I don't find your argument very compelling...


... it is about applying Justice equally for a given crime.

You haven't shown any instances of this failing to be done, though. You've just shown that the NZ justice system tends to hand out light sentences for crimes where intent was lacking.

[pete376403]

Wonder what you would get for clipping the ticket of a judges child?

[Manxman]

I don't expect answers to the following, just some things to think about.

Does manslaughter = guaranteed prison time? (I see no mention he wasn't charged with manslaughter in the article)

Would prison time make the victims family fee better?

Would prison time stop others from speeding and killing?

Would prison time deter this offender from speeding and killing more than his current sentence?

Would prison time change the offender for the worse?

Would you expect to go to prison if you killed someone while riding/driving?

You missed one:
Would prison time be a reasonable punishment?

[Ocean1]

I'm worried.

Seems there's no longer any such thing as an accident. No really, my OSH consultant assures me so, as does my HR mgr. And the safety officer. And quite a few other people who's work, it seems, is to diligently impede any constructive activity I attempt.

Not suggesting the girls death wasn't avoidable and tragic, or that the kid wasn't a complete dick. But that's what 18 year olds do, and if you give almost any one of 'em a new skyline they'll behave exactly that way. You don't have to accept that, you could make laws to prevent it, but you won't enforce them, and anyway it's tantamount to legislating against natural human behaviour.

We're not, as a species, particularly risk averse. Somewhat counter-intuitively it ain't necessarily a strong survival trait, so you're unlikely to ever change that. There will always be a bunch of less than perfectly safe behaviour, unless… well, if you ever do manage to change that just give me a heads up eh? Wouldn't want to miss the day the species diverges from what I know as human.

And then there’s a growing necessity to hold someone accountable for everything. Responsible is good, I just sorta cringe a bit when "responsible" and "accountable" drift into "blame". Ugly. But maybe that’s natural human behaviour too…

FTR, IMHO:
the hammer = murder
the fridge = accident
the skyline = manslaughter

[James Deuce]

What about Lipene Sila, who rammed his car into a group of partygoers, killing two?

He was convicted of murder, and got a non-parole period of 17 years.

That is precisely how he would have been treated if he'd walloped someone with a hammer and killed them.

What about Garth Porter, who went out hunting, thought his daughter's boyfriend was a deer, and shot and killed him?

He was convicted of careless use of a firearm causing death, and sentenced to five months home detention and 250 hours community service.

Was that a stiffer penalty than he would have received if he'd 'accidentally' hit the boy with a car and killed him? I think not.

I don't find your argument very compelling...



You haven't shown any instances of this failing to be done, though. You've just shown that the NZ justice system tends to hand out light sentences for crimes where intent was lacking.
Lipene Sila is one of the few cases where the Police had enough substantial evidence to charge the driver with murder.

Garth Porter and Mathew Tycehurst are two cases where any reasonable country would construct an argument for banning firearms ownership. I personally don't believe that anyone in NZ "needs" to own a personal weapon. There are aspects of our society that "accept" accidents as inevitable and "Justice" as pointless, especially where an instrument capable of causing death is involved, if it was used for recreational pursuits. I'm not talking about the sentence, except to illustrate the fact that for all intents and purposes, once you hit the road, you as an individual are worthless and are completely at the mercy of anyone lacking in common sense.

My "argument" is that it is perfectly acceptable to kill someone with a vehicle in NZ. It is literally socially acceptable. It is regarded as an accident. For vehicular manslaughter, intent is not the point being discussed. Were you in control of the vehicle that killed someone. Yes. Case closed.

[jrandom]

Garth Porter and Mathew Tycehurst are two cases where any reasonable country would construct an argument for banning firearms ownership.

I can name several members of this forum who constitute cases where any 'reasonable' country would construct an argument for banning motorcycle ownership. I'm sure you could too.


I personally don't believe that anyone in NZ "needs" to own a personal weapon.

Neither do they 'need' to own a motorcycle, or a Skyline, for that matter.

Or a jetski.

Or a snowboard.

Or power tools, if they're not a qualified tradesperson.

For that matter, more people die in boating 'accidents' while fishing than die in hunting 'accidents' due to misuse of firearms.

You catch my drift, I'm sure. Pretty much anything can be lethal when misused.

We can do the 'appropriate firearms legislation' topic if you want, but it feels like a bit of a red herring here. The real question is how our legal system treats situations where people kill others due to carelessness.


My "argument" is that it is perfectly acceptable to kill someone with a vehicle in NZ. It is literally socially acceptable. It is regarded as an accident. For vehicular manslaughter, intent is not point being discussed. Where you in control of the vehicle that killed someone. Yes. Case closed.

I think your argument is flawed inasmuch as you pick out the vehicle as the salient factor. I would say that killing someone without the intent to do so, regardless of the inevitable fuckwittery involved, does not result in the same condemnation in our society as killing someone with the intent to do so does.

Once again, I say, either show specific examples where comparable crimes were given mismatched sentences with the only difference being the use of a vehicle or not, or abandon that topic and consider the real question of whether our justice system treats crimes of carelessness with sufficient severity.

And, socially acceptable to kill people with vehicles? WTF? Are you actually personally acquainted with people who think it's acceptable, or is this just something you've gleaned from the ever-reliable media?

[EJK]

Whah what a complete bullshit....

[Ixion]

I..

Neither do they 'need' to own a motorcycle, or a Skyline, for that matter.

..
Or power tools, if they're not a qualified tradesperson.

..

OI. :Oi: What about us unqualified bodgers ? :spanking: I spent the whole weekend (well some it it, and it classes as the whole weekend for little list purposes) sawing and drilling and bashing. I wouldn't want to have to do that without power tools. :Pokey:. We NEED power tools, it takes 10 times as long to fuck things up without them

(BTW , did you know that 'bodger' was originally a well respected trade. One who produced furniture in situ (ie in the forest) using a whip lathe. I thought you'd want to know that)

[pzkpfw]

I was driving 'round the corner, hit some Diesel some bugger spilled, slid across the centre line and had a head-on killing someone.

I was driving 'round the corner, there were no signs and I thought I wasn't going too fast, but I mis-judged - slid across the centre line and had a head-on killing someone.

I was driving 'round the corner, there was a 65 km/hr sign, but I thought 80 k would be OK - done it before fine, but I slid across the centre line and had a head-on killing someone.

I was driving 'round the corner, had had a few after work, thought I was fine - didn't realise my speed was so high and I slid across the centre line and had a head-on killing someone.

I was driving 'round the corner, just had to get past this old lady in a Prius who'd been holding me back; I was across the centre line and had a head-on killing someone.

I was driving 'round the corner, saw this Prius, which I hate, so had a head-on with it, killing someone.



Not even the cop cars are black and white, any more.

I think we all agree that crimes have been committed, but where the lines are drawn is the question.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth does not take into account intent.