Kiwibiker Mentors - Opinion [Archive]

cowpoos

31st October 2008, 21:43

Okay...this new mentor program thing going on kiwibiker..

Just thought I would question a few things about it.

My first Opinion is the the kiwibiker website should not be endoursing people as mentors. as the website has no way of knowing the quality or ability of the mentors that are choosen.. as it is blantantly obvious through the people that are choosen as mentors.. a good half of the mentors can't ride for shit and talk shit too!!! [not shit as in dribble...but don't know what the fuck they are talking about] so how did they become mentors??? and who the hell chooses them??

This isn't a minor...this is a major...the website is theoretically endorsing these people to teach newbies...and the consequesces are???

I have seen in fighting/arguments between these supposed mentors in threads..suggesting different things/soloutions.

1) I demand to know what makes these mentors qualified?? [my old man has played criket far far longer than steven flemming..but he is by far far far worse at it]

2) I want to know on whos athority makes them make this standard to be a mentor? [in othe words is this just another KB popularity contest?]

3) http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=85180 <--- this thread was posted today...why can't people publicly reply to it?? reply by email...pifft what load of shit!! no offence Virago or Sugilite [sugi would in my opinion [if it counts for anything] make a excellent mentor] apply by PM?? WTF??

4) Who's to blame when one of these ego/useless mentors [not all of mentors] students goes and fucks up big time coause of stupid/know all advice??

I don't think there should be a place at all for mentors on KB. and if the majority opinion is that there should be. the shit...why/how are half these twits choosen?? obviously not of skill/knowledge?? more likely on bullshit and bragging!!

sinfull

31st October 2008, 21:54

Yeah vote for me for PM ! I need a job ! Not any job mind you

scuzeme

31st October 2008, 21:55

xgnr

31st October 2008, 21:57

Light the fuse and stand well back...:wari:

chanceyy

31st October 2008, 22:07

those in the know can answer more questions for you than I can

several points I will answer too

its a closed thread so ppl do have to send a pm, for several reasons

1) if it remains open it becomes a popularity contest as friends will post how wonderful that person is
2) ppl will not post honest valid concerns if it can be viewed

I understand that there is certain criteria that each nominated mentor must meet (so if you have been riding 5 mins that will not cut it) and there is a probationary period

it becomes up to the snr mentors to "weed" out the genuine concerns (rather than the bagging due to personality conflicts)

sugi will make an excellent mentor :yes: :Punk: but then I would prob be biased since I nominated him & he is my current mentor :niceone::clap:

boomer

31st October 2008, 22:12

I must agree.. i've seen the :Me sign on names i wouldn't in my wildest dreams imagined that person capable of proficient riding.. let alone mentoring noobs.

Still.. we're all big and ugly enough to accept responsibility for our own actions.. aren't we !?!

Well said cow shit

Rockbuddy

31st October 2008, 22:15

Quasievil

31st October 2008, 22:17

No Me on Me anymore, Im out and not interested.

I reckon its a crock and KB should leave it and get away from it.

I learned a few things about the nomination process which definately got me a bit pissed.

carver

31st October 2008, 22:42

make me a mentor....
im good...as is the rest of the "few"

Shadows

31st October 2008, 23:08

I learned a few things about the nomination process which definately got me a bit pissed.

Please go on...

Owl

1st November 2008, 01:16

You raise some interesting and valid points cowpoos!

I've been involved in a sport and witnessed first hand where bad advice could lead to serious injury or death.
One of the biggest issues was the "beginner-intermediate level" freely giving advice to noobs without the consent of an instuctor or the knowledge to back it up. At least this took place in a fairly tight environment and was often sorted before any damage was done!

I intend to follow this thread with interest!:niceone:

Brian d marge

1st November 2008, 01:54

woooooo

and Kiwis can drive ????????????????

Some if not the worst driving habits on this planet ...Mr Poo raises a very good question , which you need to look at in 2 lights

one confidence , some people just need a stronger rider to follow to get used to the bike.

2 the next step is road craft ,,, that takes a lifetime ,,,( or a few years as a London Dr , or better still a London bike policeman ,,, those fella can keep a constant speed ,,,in a very controlled way ,,big respect to then ..( from an ole scrot ,,,)

Watch that fastbike vidoe , where they were in the south of france ,,, , wheelies mucking about ,, and not once ( well only on a clear road ) did they cross the centre line ,,, Sorry but Kiwis are awful drivers ,, ( except for the truckies ,,they wernt to bad apart from the wierd road signals , which differ fronm the rest of the world ,Austraila excluded .)

If I were to choose a Mentor it would be Katman , it may come out abit odd sometimes , but theres a heap of sense there

Stephen

pritch

1st November 2008, 03:50

Sorry but Kiwis are awful drivers ,, ( except for the truckies ,,they wernt to bad apart from the wierd road signals , which differ fronm the rest of the world ,Austraila excluded .)

Thanks for that. I had noticed that things were not as I thought they ought but had put it down to confusion on my part.

I also recently noticed that the signal they give to tell you it's clear to pass is similar to what they do to say "Hi" to another truckie.?

The mentor scheme (and the alleged vetting) is interesting but I'm well past submitting CVs to anybody. I'm more interested in submitting a pension application.:lol:

Random thought: Some of us may may manage to be more convincing on KB if we stated our case prior to indulging in our recreational chemical of choice?

wysper

1st November 2008, 05:55

Okay...this new mentor program thing going on kiwibiker..

Just thought I would question a few things about it.

1) I demand to know what makes these mentors qualified?? [my old man has played criket far far longer than steven flemming..but he is by far far far worse at it]

2) I want to know on whos athority makes them make this standard to be a mentor? [in othe words is this just another KB popularity contest?]

3) http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=85180 <--- this thread was posted today...why can't people publicly reply to it?? reply by email...pifft what load of shit!! no offence Virago or Sugilite [sugi would in my opinion [if it counts for anything] make a excellent mentor] apply by PM?? WTF??

4) Who's to blame when one of these ego/useless mentors [not all of mentors] students goes and fucks up big time coause of stupid/know all advice??

Fair enough. I understand your concerns. But no one is forcing you to use a mentor or even listen to what they say or read what they post.
I know a couple of newbies on this site and they don't take anyones word as gospel. They tend to work on the theory that if many people say the same thing then there is probably something to it.

I learned a few things about the nomination process which definately got me a bit pissed.

I would love to know more, but I guess a public forum may not be the best place to air it. Unless it becomes really desperate.

I also recently noticed that the signal they give to tell you it's clear to pass is similar to what they do to say "Hi" to another truckie.?

Yeah, that damn near got me killed once!!

Wingnut

1st November 2008, 06:12

1) I demand to know what makes these mentors qualified??

Demand: require imply making an authoritative request. To demand is to ask in a bold, authoritative way: to demand an explanation.

Where did you get the authority to demand? Chill man.......

SixPackBack

1st November 2008, 06:28

kawa10

1st November 2008, 06:30

im with you on this one cow poos. 100%.

riffer

1st November 2008, 06:45

Yeah, gotta agree with you on this one too CP.

The original mentors programme was pulled due to 20 year olds with 1 or 2 years ending up on the mentor list, and a new one was instituted.

There was a lot of work went into the new programme. Unfortunately the process doesn't appear too transparent to me and I'm not confident of the end result as well.

There are a number of people on the mentor programme whose ability I respect and a number of whom I have no idea at all.

The legal implications to the site owners if something goes wrong could be interesting.

trumpy

1st November 2008, 06:59

katman is an excellent example of who should not be a mentor. His social skills on here mark him as a retard.

What the hell have his social skills got to do with it? You can learn those in a pub. What newbies (and old returning farts like me:sherlock:) need are bike skills and road craft. Having ridden with Katman on group rides I can attest to his skills on both counts............but hey, what would I know? I'm just an old fart who can't ride for shit (hence I never dispense advice to anyone...)

CookMySock

1st November 2008, 07:18

no one is forcing you to use a mentor or even listen to what they say or read what they post. I know a couple of newbies on this site and they don't take anyones word as gospel. They tend to work on the theory that if many people say the same thing then there is probably something to it.Doesn't everyone? Why the struggle to get ones' own opinion (not yours wysper) to be taken as fact? There is no "fact". We collect opinion and we make our own "fact". Everyone does.

katman is an excellent example of who should not be a mentor. His social skills on here mark him as a retard.Exactly. Mentoring is more about achieving a positive outcome with a person over time, and less about being right regardless, and that requires more social skills than it does biking skills. After all the teaching is done, the idea is to come out of it with a person who still wants to ride a bike and doesn't feel like giving up.

I'm teaching my kids to drive and ride, and I taught my wife to ride, and they are brilliantly smooth to follow and watch, and yet I'm a new rider myself.

However, I have disagreed with and no doubt angered and provoked the great almighty cowshit, and everyone that posts in his thread must agree with him, so watch the abuse and red rep follow. :doh:

Steve

McJim

1st November 2008, 07:40

So is there no defining line between a Mentor and a Tutor? It looks like the majority of nay sayers are talking about Tutors which is different. Mentors are not meant to teach - if they are then there's something seriously wrong. They are merely supposed to be a wheel to follow sometimes and someone with a bit of knowledge who can give words of encouragement (rather than tuition).

trumpy

1st November 2008, 07:48

..Exactly. Mentoring is more about achieving a positive outcome with a person over time, and less about being right regardless, and that requires more social skills than it does biking skills. After all the teaching is done, the idea is to come out of it with a person who still wants to ride a bike and doesn't feel like giving up.....Steve

While you make a valid point, it is very easy to miss out on valuable learning from certain people because their personality doesn't fit with you. Instead I try to look beyond to the knowledge base and experience that they have. I have learned some very valuable professional skills from people who have all the social skills of the average 3 year old, in fact the best technical advances I made professionally were from being tutored by an Orthopaedic surgeon in the USA who was probably the most arrogant and disagreeable person I've ever met! Just had to look beyond all that to the goldmine of knowledge that was being made available to me.

MSTRS

1st November 2008, 07:57

Seems to be a lot of people bagging the mentor 'system'. I don't see any of the baggers putting their hands up and suggesting something 'better'.
Most riders that want help just want that help in one or two areas of their riding, and they are free to seek that help where-ever they like. But if they ask on KB, then surely officially approved mentors are better than what went before (names not reqd even though they don't participate on KB anymore)?
Nothing is stopping those who think they are good enough from passing on skills and knowledge to others, but as far as KB as an entity is concerned, there has to be some way of being assured that the intending official mentor is of a suitable standard. The process to achieve that was fairly robust (we even talked about having police vetting FFS).
The other thing worth mentioning is the old "KB is not a democracy" - yet the mentors were picked via a democratic process. Still can't keep everybody happy.

DMNTD

1st November 2008, 08:00

The process to achieve that was fairly robust (we even talked about having police vetting FFS)....

WHAT???? :chase:

Virago

1st November 2008, 08:03

WHAT???? :chase:

Bwahahahaha...! Don't panic - your secrets are safe...:shutup:

MSTRS

1st November 2008, 08:12

WHAT???? :chase:

"What?" indeed. Ya think ya know someone, and then....

The Pastor

1st November 2008, 08:31

mentors talk about the basic riding stuff aye? like stop start going round a corner safely?

its not about advanced riding skills?

Katman

1st November 2008, 08:31

Like I've said in my user note, I have no interest in teaching anything to make someone a faster rider. Staying alive on a motorcycle is 99% a mental thing - the other 1% is luck.

katman is an excellent example of who should not be a mentor. His social skills on here mark him as a retard.

Social skills??? Do you want me to bake you a fucking cake?

The Pastor

1st November 2008, 08:41

chocolate please with some icing!

Her_C4

1st November 2008, 08:49

katman is an excellent example of who should not be a mentor. His social skills on here mark him as a retard.

Wha' ???? :confused:

If I needed a mentor (and I did), I wouldn't give a shit about how well the rider could indulge in social intercourse, or win popularity contests! If they are experienced, keen to stay alive, have common sense and ride accordingly (thank god I found Lynda and Hamish!), then I would be keen to keep their back wheel in my sights for as long as I felt comfortable or wanted to.

I'm just an old fart who can't ride for shit (hence I never dispense advice to anyone...)

Hmm fuck - what does that make me - an old fartess?? :shit::wari: :lol:

Mentors are not meant to teach - if they are then there's something seriously wrong. They are merely supposed to be a wheel to follow sometimes and someone with a bit of knowledge who can give words of encouragement (rather than tuition).

There we go - some common sense??

Like I've said in my user note, I have no interest in teaching anything to make someone a faster rider. Staying alive on a motorcycle is 99% a mental thing - the other 1% is luck.

:Punk: Exactly

Social skills??? Do you want me to bake you a fucking cake?

Oh - 'er - yes please?:blink::wari:

dangerous

1st November 2008, 09:03

Okay...this new mentor program thing going on kiwibiker..
I am in agreeance with you aswell, ok but let me say I am only refering to those ME:s that I ride many a km with. These guys are fuking awesome people... i have lots of time for them, but as ME:s I can think of beter, people that have riden and raced the world.

Now I'd cancile the progame myself, people wanting help on rides will find by them selves some one to get help from, that some one they can choose rather than be told this person is a ME:

I am more than happy to help those that ask but the 1st thing I say is "this is what works for me and may not for you and FWIW after 200,000+kms 25 years of non stop riding I still learn new shit every day"
I however will not ever consider myself as some kinda mentor.

CookMySock

1st November 2008, 09:07

Mentors are not meant to teach - if they are then there's something seriously wrong. They are merely supposed to be a wheel to follow sometimes and someone with a bit of knowledge who can give words of encouragement (rather than tuition).That was made clear when the program was launched, but seems to have conveniently been lost.

I am not surprised. People like to teach - it validates them and reinforces their opinion as fact, and increases their self-esteem.

it is very easy to miss out on valuable learning from certain people because their personality doesn't fit with you. [....] the best technical advances I made professionally were from being tutored by an Orthopaedic surgeon in the USA who was probably the most arrogant and disagreeable person I've ever met! Just had to look beyond all that to the goldmine of knowledge that was being made available to me.Yeah fair enough. It takes a special sort of person, or a lot of effort to do that, or an absolute requirement (ie employment). Either way, I submit that is quite different from a puzzled newbie asking a genuine question from a respected elder and getting a gruff reply or ridicule in return.

The wrong type of person in this role serves either the public, KB, or motorcycling little or any value whatsoever, and for KB to put their stamp of approval on them is short-sighted.

Growth should be the goal, and it is not only the learner who is the learner.

In my opinion of course.

Steve

Bonez

1st November 2008, 09:43

closed thread or not if someone is nomenated i think the nomenator should post their reason why they think the person is worthy of mentor statusToo right. I know anthony is a great bloke and races when he can. I've also witness some shady pasing manuvours by Sugi on the odd group ride :rolleyes:, yeah I'm not perfect either. Some nominations seem to be self gratifying same goes for mod selection. Basicly it appears to be who you know, not how good they are to carry out the task :Pokey: Anthony is a good nomination for mentor btw.

I'm not bagging the whole mentor system per se its good to see folk helping fellow riders. It should also be pointed out there are quite few folks out there who help noobs without the KB mentor lable. Hats off to those silent few who do this.

Blossom

1st November 2008, 10:06

I wonder if not having the mentor program would be better though. As a bit of a noob myself I can assure you that I have a brain as do the rest of us noobs and I personally am not going to take any advice from anyone who cant ride. Just because I cant ride as well as some does not mean I can't tell who can ride.
As someone still kinda new to this site it is pretty transparent who are the helpful, knowledgable people, a ride identifys the capable riders.
So I wonder wheres the problem?
The mentor program just hands me a shortlist of sorts that I can choose or not choose to look at if I need some advice etc.
If those on the list aren't my kind of people and cant bake choc cakes etc then so be it.. I will look elsewhere for assistance.

Virago

1st November 2008, 10:12

...I demand to know...

Do you now - well good for you.

This has all been covered at great length in the Mentor Programme discussion threads. You should find the answers to all your questions and demands in there - check them out.

A huge amount of work went into the planning and implementation process. All nominations were carefully vetted, and then posted on the site for public submissions before any were confirmed. I don't recall seeing any objections from you...?

The issue of liability was paramount during the initial planning stages. Legal opinions were sought. The site administrators are satisfied that the issue has been covered.

The system is now up and running. It is early days, but the feedback from those involved is 100% positive.

Bonez

1st November 2008, 10:15

I wonder if not having the mentor program would be better though. Don't think so either. Like you stated it provides a shortlist. Getting on a organised ride evening or similar can help. Some KB mentors reckon this is no good for noobs but we seem to be having good results with this in our area. Also having a few newer riders along on the ride seems to work well.

Cowboyz was our resident mentor under the old system but with the bitch fighting thats gone on he appears to have been deemed unsuitable.

Brian d marge

1st November 2008, 11:58

Random thought: Some of us may may manage to be more convincing on KB if we stated our case prior to indulging in our recreational chemical of choice?

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah that would take all the fun out of life ... confused ramblings thats where its at ... I didnt get where I was today by being a confused Rambler , No never can I be told that I ramble ,,, I remember back in the day ,,,ohhh I must of been about :doh:

Stephen

Nasty

1st November 2008, 13:19

Don't think so either. Like you stated it provides a shortlist. Getting on a organised ride evening or similar can help. Some KB mentors reckon this is no good for noobs but we seem to be having good results with this in our area. Also having a few newer riders along on the ride seems to work well.

Cowboyz was our resident mentor under the old system but with the bitch fighting thats gone on he appears to have been deemed unsuitable.

Mentors all went through the same process - there is a reasonable amount of rigor around that process http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=79923 - and it also has nothing to do with the modorators and their roles as mods on this site (just to make that clear) .. so if a nominee doesn't come out through that process there is obviously a reason.

If you are the person who nominated some and want to discuss approach the Senior Mentors about it - i am not sure for your area it may be mstrs or hitcher. From my understanding any bitch fighting that Cowboyz has been up to has nothing to do with mentor selection at all (also from what I have seen the bitch fighting was after the first lot of mentors selected were announced though I may have the timing wrong on that one).

The Pastor

1st November 2008, 13:20

if a mentor is somone who teaches the basics - i.e., somone who has never ridden before to someone who wants a refersher for the learner/res/full test i will put my hand up to be a mentor, ive tought quite a few people the very basics.

but if its for people who want to improve their riding skills (i.e., knee down best "lines" to take etc) then im not keen. Will take people for a ride and give them pointers if they are doing stupid or dangerous things unknowingly tho.

im pretty paient and will let people learn on my motorcycle (cbr250) and not worried if they bin it (ask currious_aj on that one lol)

Nasty

1st November 2008, 13:22

The Pastor

1st November 2008, 13:26

i see, its a bit contradictory don't you think? how do they define rider trainer? whats the main difference between trainer and mentor?

Lucy

1st November 2008, 13:27

Oh shit!

I thought all the people who had ME by their names were suffering from Chronic Fatigue.

Phew, I'm glad to hear you are all ok after all.

Nasty

1st November 2008, 13:29

i see, its a bit contradictory don't you think? how do they define rider trainer? whats the main difference between trainer and mentor?

someone who trains a rider .. most likely someone with training to train a rider - suitably qualified would have been my though ...

I would have thught there was nothing unclear about the following:

The Mentors role is primarily to advise and encourage people in a 1 to 1 relationship. There will not ever be any Official KB Mentor Group Rides. This is primarily because the person being Mentored deserves the Mentors full attention and that can't happen in a 1 to many situation. There's nothing stopping the 2 of them from going on a group ride, but just remember that the Mentor is helping 1 person and that's all. Group riding can be fun and you can also learn a lot so there's no reason not to go on group rides unless the group is a bunch of speed freaks having a race to the end point or other dangerous behaviour.

Because Mentoring is about advising and encouraging there won't be any sort of official training schedule, curriculum or sessions. Doing figure 8's or a few simple cone exercises is all that should be attempted. Anything more advanced falls into the area of training and that is simply not what kiwibiker is offering.

Unless the Mentor is specifically advising on stunt riding, or racing on track, or any other specific situation, the Mentors main aim is to advice and encourage the rider into safe habits (as a minimum standard) and to enjoy themselves.

So, basically, the role of a Mentor is:
to advise and encourage
to pass on their vast amounts of knowledge and experience
to keep an eye on the people being Mentored

What a Mentor isn't:
a riding trainer
an idiot or unsafe rider
part of an insidious plot to take over the world

As for how Mentors achieve these goals, that's up to each individual Mentor. There is no prescribed syllabus, or laid out processes, or guidelines as to what and how people should be shown and told. The Mentors are chosen by their experience, knowledge, skills and abilities, not because of how well they stick to a script and tow the line. All that is asked is Mentors don't imply or promise that there is any training.

Nasty

1st November 2008, 13:39

Cowboyz was our resident mentor under the old system but with the bitch fighting thats gone on he appears to have been deemed unsuitable.

I think you need to ask Cowboyz why he is not a mentor - I am sure that he will be happy to talk to you about it.

Bonez

1st November 2008, 14:04

someone who trains a rider .. most likely someone with training to train a rider - suitably qualified would have been my though ...

I would have thught there was nothing unclear about the following:Mentors give advice don't they? To help riders right? To improve their riding skills right? Now trainers give advice (call it instructions if you like) to to help improve riders they are teaching? Hmmmm

puddy

1st November 2008, 14:17

WHAT???? :chase:

Well, you're FUCKED then!:2guns:

Bonez

1st November 2008, 14:26

Mentors all went through the same process - there is a reasonable amount of rigor around that process http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=79923 - and it also has nothing to do with the modorators and their roles as mods on this site (just to make that clear) .. so if a nominee doesn't come out through that process there is obviously a reason.

If you are the person who nominated some and want to discuss approach the Senior Mentors about it - i am not sure for your area it may be mstrs or hitcher. From my understanding any bitch fighting that Cowboyz has been up to has nothing to do with mentor selection at all (also from what I have seen the bitch fighting was after the first lot of mentors selected were announced though I may have the timing wrong on that one).My understanding is Hitcher is not a mentor and to his credit is unwilling to do so.

Deano, Grub and paulmac are in the Lower NI.

Owl

1st November 2008, 14:28

Mentors give advice don't they? To help riders right? To improve their riding skills right? Now trainers give advice (call it instructions if you like) to to help improve riders they are teaching? Hmmmm

Mentor................I never did like that word. Too close to "Mental" and also the name of a company that manufactures breast implants.

Ferris:Hooters

Nah, doesn't do it for me!:rofl:

Nasty

1st November 2008, 14:34

My understanding is Hitcher is not a mentor and to his credit is unwilling to do so.

you haven't read the mentor threads? I thought that you could access this one .. if not let me know.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=80017

Bonez

1st November 2008, 14:37

you haven't read the mentor threads? I thought that you could access this one .. if not let me know.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=80017Its a purely administrive role no hands on as it where. So he is not a mentor in the true sence.

Nasty

1st November 2008, 14:38

Its a purely administrive role.

And you are asking about administrative stuff regarding your pal ... wow why would I suggest him!

Owl

1st November 2008, 14:51

On a serious note, I'd like to hear the voice from a current Mentor. What they've done in their role so far, etc etc.

Katman

1st November 2008, 14:53

On a serious note, I'd like to hear the voice from a current Mentor. What they've done in their role so far, etc etc.

Well, I've hardly been worked off my feet - but I'm sure nobody expected me to be.

:msn-wink:

Bonez

1st November 2008, 14:56

Well, I've hardly been worked off my feet - but I'm sure nobody expected me to be.

:msn-wink:Steve I've had a few Pms from some of the noobs that have had the pleasure a while back, if thats the right term, to grace your omipotent presence.

Katman

1st November 2008, 14:59

Steve I've had a few Pms from some of the noobs. Seem happy enough.

Yes, but PrincessBandit is somewhat biased.

:msn-wink:

Lucy

1st November 2008, 15:04

Who needs mentors anyway? Ride Right Ride Safe is only $50, and includes a road code!

I've met MSTRS, (top bloke) but not seen him ride, the only other mentors I've seen or known of: One did a ridiculous lanesplit almost killed themselves manouver, the other is dead.

On the other hand, the 250 rides I went on, I learnt heaps from McJim, Maverick, Donor and GiJoe, (and Zeocen when he finally arrived.....)
and I think they were all L platers at the time, all still have their licences and are all still riding.

NZsarge

1st November 2008, 15:10

Who needs mentors anyway? Ride Right Ride Safe is only $50, and includes a road code!

I pretty much agree with Cowpoo's query's and also think if you feel the need for skill upgrades then official set up's like RRRS are more appropriate places to go.

cowpoos

1st November 2008, 15:48

Do you now - well good for you.

This has all been covered at great length in the Mentor Programme discussion threads. You should find the answers to all your questions and demands in there - check them out.

Yeah I may have missed that...when the site started leaning towards social engineering I lost interest in it for many months.

A huge amount of work went into the planning and implementation process. All nominations were carefully vetted, and then posted on the site for public submissions before any were confirmed. I don't recall seeing any objections from you...?

Thats not what I heard...and its obvious with choices made of some of the mentors that they are not vetting very well at all. Its a TOTAL case of the blind leading the blind sorry dude!! I am not meaning to blow my trumpet..But I know I am a very good rider. and I can tell who is and isn't very quickly on seeing them ride. Some of these mentors that have been chosen are shit. irrisponsible...and thier riding should never be looked up to!!

And you are right...I made no submissions. but then I can't in a closed thread. submissions should be public. if people think there riding is of the standard to be a mentor...they should dam well be okay about being judged and vetting publically by thier peers.

The issue of liability was paramount during the initial planning stages. Legal opinions were sought. The site administrators are satisfied that the issue has been covered.

Was there any legel precidents found....close to or even near these circumstances??

Its good to hear that this side has been looked into and has satisfied spank and MT.

The system is now up and running. It is early days, but the feedback from those involved is 100% positive.

Is there a thread with these posted comments and feedbacks??

BTW. I may have been a bit tiddly when I made my origional post...I tend to swear alot in that state. Sounds a bit harsh/blunt when I read it now..that wasn't how I would have phrased things now! but it has still got my points accross.

Also I would like to know why a couple of the Mentors have commented to me personally that this system is just a crock?? they obviously know something we don't. [and knew I had a far to bigger mouth to tell me more details!!]

FROSTY

1st November 2008, 16:04

Squiggles

1st November 2008, 18:29

someone who trains a rider .. most likely someone with training to train a rider - suitably qualified would have been my though ...

I would have thught there was nothing unclear about the following:

Given the varying interpretations, an example of what a mentor might do vs what a trainer might do (over what the mentor does) would i believe, help with the clarifying the difference and the role of the "Kiwibiker Mentor".

Katman

1st November 2008, 22:22

Given the varying interpretations, an example of what a mentor might do vs what a trainer might do (over what the mentor does) would i believe, help with the clarifying the difference and the role of the "Kiwibiker Mentor".

An example? A mentoring session for me would not even necessarily involve getting on a motorcycle.

Bonez

1st November 2008, 22:29

An example? A mentoring session for me would not even necessarily involve getting on a motorcycle.You'll need to expand on that. I would imagine rider trainers would do similar when required. For instance video sessions.

Katman

1st November 2008, 22:38

You'll need to expand on that. I would imagine rider trainers would do similar when required. For instance video sessions.

Expand?

Ok - it might not even involve talking about motorcycles.

Bonez

1st November 2008, 22:40

Expand?

Ok - it might not even involve talking about motorcycles.Carry on.....

This could be usefull to other mentors.

Katman

1st November 2008, 22:44

Carry on.....

This could be usefull to other mentors.

Like I've said Bonez - it's a mental attitude.

Bonez

1st November 2008, 22:47

Like I've said Bonez - it's a mental attitude.You're right. This, I imagine, is why poos bought the subject up in the first place.

Katman

1st November 2008, 22:49

You're right. This, I imagine, is why poos bought the subject up.

And that's why I also have reservations about some of the mentors (and have said so from the start).

jrandom

1st November 2008, 22:53

Like I've said Bonez - it's a mental attitude.

Yeah... it's also being able to ride a fucking motorcycle. That helps too. And I think that's kinda what Mr Poos is bothered about. And his point is well-founded.

Bonez

1st November 2008, 22:57

And that's why I also have reservations about some of the mentors (and have said so from the start).Good for you.

Katman

1st November 2008, 22:59

Yeah... it's also being able to ride a fucking motorcycle. That helps too. And I think that's kinda what Mr Poos is bothered about. And his point is well-founded.

I don't think it's so much about being able to ride a motorcycle - I believe it's about the attitude you bring to the ride. People, given the right attitude, can safely learn all they neeed to know about motorcycling in their own sweet time.

jrandom

1st November 2008, 23:03

People, given the right attitude, can safely learn all they neeed to know about motorcycling in their own sweet time.

Hard to argue with that.

If a 'mentor' has difficulty with, say, going round corners, or braking quickly and retaining control, though, I'd have to ask whether, having shown an inability to control a motorcycle well after the requisite "I've been riding for THIS long!" quantity of experience, they were suitable to 'mentor' anything or anyone.

Katman

1st November 2008, 23:11

If a 'mentor' has difficulty with, say, going round corners, or braking quickly and retaining control, though, I'd have to ask whether, having shown an inability to control a motorcycle well after the requisite "I've been riding for THIS long!" quantity of experience, they were suitable to 'mentor' anything or anyone.

Hard to argue with that.

:msn-wink:

Mental Trousers

1st November 2008, 23:46

Mentors - not trained to teach and unqualified
Trainers - trained and qualified

If it was a popularity contest and there wasn't very careful vetting Katman would never have gotten through. The wah brigade would have made damn sure he never got to be a mentor - but none of them had ever ridden with the guy or been adviced by him. We checked with people that had done both and their opinions were not the same as those who call him a prick.

The negative feedback was by far the most important. We always expected truckloads of positive feedback and got plenty of it, but it was the negative that we looked very closely at. Negative feedback from those known to have personality clashes with the candidate in question was taken with a grain of salt as personal motivations for the feedback could not be entirely ruled out. However, even the negative feedback wasn't consistant and there were no discernable patterns. Basically, none of the individual pieces of negative feedback on a candidate agreed with any other. If none of the feedback agreed then it's a single persons opinion and not that of a range of people, and it was a range of people showing a pattern for things like yes candidate xxxx is often irresponsible and encourages people to pop wheelies at every opportunity that are important.

Cowboyz withdrew before he got into the bitch fighting. You'll have to ask him why.

Hitcher is purely administrative and actively refuses to Mentor people. We agreed upon that before he took up the role as Senior Mentor for the Lower North Island region and is a Senior Mentor in name only.

The Central North Island has probably been the quietest region. Most likely due to the demographics of the area. It was never expected that the Mentors would be run off their feet but there has been steady activity.

The Mentor system isn't perfect and never will be. However, it is achieving what it was intended to do and a review of the entire thing won't be done for a long time yet.

Katman

1st November 2008, 23:53

If it was a popularity contest and there wasn't very careful vetting Katman would never have gotten through.

Careful, my fragile personality could be offended by that.

:msn-wink:

jrandom

1st November 2008, 23:56

Careful, my fragile personality could be offended by that.

Underneath it all, you just want to be loved, right?

Katman

1st November 2008, 23:58

Underneath it all, you just want to be loved, right?

Are you coming on to me?

:msn-wink:

Boob Johnson

2nd November 2008, 00:33

That was made clear when the program was launched, but seems to have conveniently been lost.

I am not surprised. People like to teach - it validates them and reinforces their opinion as fact, and increases their self-esteem.

Yeah fair enough. It takes a special sort of person, or a lot of effort to do that, or an absolute requirement (ie employment). Either way, I submit that is quite different from a puzzled newbie asking a genuine question from a respected elder and getting a gruff reply or ridicule in return.

The wrong type of person in this role serves either the public, KB, or motorcycling little or any value whatsoever, and for KB to put their stamp of approval on them is short-sighted.

Growth should be the goal, and it is not only the learner who is the learner.

In my opinion of course.

Steve
Out of bling. That's just nail on the head right there.

I don't think it's so much about being able to ride a motorcycle - I believe it's about the attitude you bring to the ride. People, given the right attitude, can safely learn all they need to know about motorcycling in their own sweet time.
Why so intent on pissing people off? That you excel at. Very few sane people will argue with your above post yet you have this amazing ability to repel people in numbers.

Careful, my fragile personality could be offended by that.

:msn-wink:
So how many infraction points are you up to Katman? It's amazing you can even log in with the level of infractions you must have accumulated by now (oh that's right, the site rules mean jack as there are no real consequences)

You are a walking contradiction Katman, if people are to take you seriously they need to respect you, I see a lot of people here in KB that have none what so ever for you & its hard to blame them with the way you carry on, in whatever name or guise you want to clock it under, hence threads like this

James Deuce

2nd November 2008, 00:50

It's quite simple Boob. People hate having a mirror held up and being found wanting. I don't know where you get off with that comment about sane people. There's sod all sane people on KB.

Boob Johnson

2nd November 2008, 01:17

It's quite simple Boob. People hate having a mirror held up and being found wanting. I don't know where you get off with that comment about sane people. There's sod all sane people on KB.
What part of the "sane" comment did you find.......insane?

Kickaha

2nd November 2008, 07:09

(oh that's right, the site rules mean jack as there are no real consequences)

Shows you know fuck all about them and what actually goes on regarding them if you think that

Boob Johnson

2nd November 2008, 08:01

Shows you know fuck all about them and what actually goes on regarding them if you think that
You'd be right I don't know all the in's n out's, was just a general observation from watching clowns like SM, Katman & the likes have no real come back as they are continue to post with no change at all.

cowpoos

2nd November 2008, 09:22

It's quite simple Boob. People hate having a mirror held up and being found wanting. .

that sums up alot of things...most of them are irrelivent to this thread how ever! Nice quote Jim

cowpoos

2nd November 2008, 09:48

Poos-- My opinion here. If you have an issue with one or more mentors then please FFS speak up.
Seriously mate -I couldn't agree more with your concern that mentors need to be up to scratch and I'm fairly sure that the people "in charge" of the program would be gratefull for your feedback.

nah...they probally won't be.
Because I would be questioning thier and other peoples judgment. and they would never seen to be wrong would they tony?

Lucy

2nd November 2008, 09:49

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 09:54

Katman doesn't have ME by his name, is he a mentor? Why doesn't he have the ME?

Probably a bug in the sin bin system.

Mental Trousers

2nd November 2008, 10:01

There are perhaps 5 people (in my opinion) on kb who would be almost perfect Mentors (nobody is perfect eh), and only 2 of those people are actual Mentors. You can't have a programme with 2 people and nobody else. Being a Mentor does not include having to be perfect.

Everyone is different and people seem to have unreasonably high expectations of the Mentors. Most of the candidates got negative feedback (including both Quasi and Frosty, both of whom have been part of Mentoring on kb as long as I can remember) and it was all carefully evaluated and taken into account.

Mental Trousers

2nd November 2008, 10:12

Katman doesn't have ME by his name, is he a mentor? Why doesn't he have the ME?

Probably a bug in the sin bin system.

It happens automatically when someone collects enough infraction points, ie ALL tags/formatting/etc are removed by the software for those in the naughty bin.

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 10:13

It happens automatically when someone collects enough infraction points, ie ALL tags/formatting/etc are removed by the software for those in the naughty bin.

Did I say 'bug'? I meant 'feature'.

Quasievil

2nd November 2008, 10:13

Most of the candidates got negative feedback (including both Quasi and Frosty, both of whom have been part of Mentoring on kb as long as I can remember) and it was all carefully evaluated and taken into account.

That shows what an arse it is then, im perfect mum said so, I know one mentor thats crashed on the road 5 times lol real good mentoring capability that is lol

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 10:15

I know one mentor thats crashed on the road 5 times lol real good mentoring capability that is lol

Pfft, you can't measure someone's riding competence by how many times they haven't crashed.

People who've never crashed are either simply riding within only a tiny percentage of their bike's capabilities (and that includes people who only ever take the bike out of the garage on sunny days, etc) and are therefore unsuitable to convey information about motorcycle control dynamics, or they're ticking timebombs who don't know the risks they're running.

boomer

2nd November 2008, 10:17

... I know one mentor thats crashed on the road 5 times lol real good mentoring capability that is lol

i believe this is the point all of us nay sayers are referring to. Still.. In the grand scheme of things.. Who gives a fook !?

:apint:

I vote for a ':Common Sense Tag' ..

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 10:19

In the grand scheme of things.. Who gives a fook !?

:apint:

This is KB. Since when has not giving a fook stopped anyone from making their opinion extremely clear?

:laugh:

Lucy

2nd November 2008, 10:20

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 10:20

Can I be a mentor?

Only if you're hot. Pixplz.

Mental Trousers

2nd November 2008, 10:21

That shows what an arse it is then, im perfect mum said so, I know one mentor thats crashed on the road 5 times lol real good mentoring capability that is lol

... and that Mentor (if we are talking about the same person of course) no longer rides on the road but prefers to crash within the safe confines of a race track with an ambulance standing by. An indication that his attitude to riding has changed and matured. That change is was the single biggest factor in determining whether he should be a Mentor or not. Plenty of crashes means he's gotten to the point he's at the hard way, but that's the way some people learn - by 1st hand experience.

Lucy

2nd November 2008, 10:22

Only if you're hot. Pixplz.

bugger....

I'm married and ride a BMW. What do YOU think....???

Kendog

2nd November 2008, 10:22

People who've never crashed are either simply riding within only a tiny percentage of their bike's capabilities (and that includes people who only ever take the bike out of the garage on sunny days, etc) and are therefore unsuitable to convey information about motorcycle control dynamics, or they're ticking timebombs who don't know the risks they're running.

Have to disagree with that one.
You are heading into the 'everybody crashes when they ride a bike' world.
Why should everybody have to crash?
Why should people have to ride at the bikes capabilities, rather than their own?
Why is someone that hasn't crashed a ticking time bomb?, what does that mean for people that have not killed someone yet?

yungatart

2nd November 2008, 10:23

People who've never crashed are either simply riding within only a tiny percentage of their bike's capabilities (and that includes people who only ever take the bike out of the garage on sunny days, etc) and are therefore unsuitable to convey information about motorcycle control dynamics, or they're ticking timebombs who don't know the risks they're running.

What a crock!
Perhaps people who have never crashed ride sensibly all the time, have excellent skills, bike handling abilities and road craft.

Some who have crashed many times have learned the lessons the hard way and are well equipped to pass those lessons on to others.

And then there are the turkeys..who crash seemingly weekly, lose their licences numerous times, won't listen to others who know better...basically your slow learner retarded types!:Pokey:

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 10:23

boomer

2nd November 2008, 10:25

... and that Mentor (if we are talking about the same person of course) no longer rides on the road but prefers to crash within the safe confines of a race track with an ambulance standing by. An indication that his attitude to riding has changed and matured. That change is was the single biggest factor in determining whether he should be a Mentor or not. Plenty of crashes means he's gotten to the point he's at the hard way, but that's the way some people learn - by 1st hand experience.

bs.. ! Sorry Shane.

Have to disagree with that one.
You are heading into the 'everybody crashes when they ride a bike' world.
Why should everybody have to crash?
Why should people have to ride at the bikes capabilities, rather than their own?
Why is someone that hasn't crashed a ticking time bomb?, what does that mean for people that have not killed someone yet?

lol.. did that idiot (JRandom) really just say that??! he's another thats crashed so many times he's teh perfect candidate for Mentordom!

:lmfao:

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 10:29

Perhaps people who have never crashed ride sensibly all the time, have excellent skills, bike handling abilities and road craft.

Perhaps... I'd say someone's obviously a bit sensitive on this topic!

:msn-wink:

Y'know, I could do 100,000km by going round and round the block I live on and never falling off or breaking a road regulation.

Not sure I'd learn much while doing it, though.

And then there are the turkeys..who crash seemingly weekly, lose their licences numerous times, won't listen to others who know better...basically your slow learner retarded types!:Pokey:

Chortle, chortle. Thing is, though - I don't presume to be anyone's 'mentor'.

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 10:30

he's another thats crashed so many times he's teh perfect candidate for Mentordom!

True, my resumé is stellar, but frankly, I just don't feel any need to have my ego stroked.

:doobey:

yungatart

2nd November 2008, 10:32

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 10:36

Why would I be sensitive on this topic?

I can't imagine why.

I, also, don't presume to be a mentor either.

Never said you did!

We're talking in general terms only, of course.

boomer

2nd November 2008, 10:38

Perhaps... I'd say someone's obviously a bit sensitive on this topic!

:msn-wink:

Y'know, I could do 100,000km by going round and round the block I live on and never falling off or breaking a road regulation.

Not sure I'd learn much while doing it, though.

Chortle, chortle. Thing is, though - I don't presume to be anyone's 'mentor'.[/i]

Why would I be sensitive on this topic? I fail to see your point.
I, also, don't presume to be a mentor either.

Why would I be sensitive on this topic? I fail to see your point.
I, also, don't presume to be a mentor either.

the idjiot goes all over the country doing 100,000's of k's and still doesn't learn!!! ahhahahahahaha i believe his arguments are flawed.

cowpoos

2nd November 2008, 10:40

Pfft, you can't measure someone's riding competence by how many times they haven't crashed.

People who've never crashed are either simply riding within only a tiny percentage of their bike's capabilities (and that includes people who only ever take the bike out of the garage on sunny days, etc) and are therefore unsuitable to convey information about motorcycle control dynamics, or they're ticking timebombs who don't know the risks they're running.

Nah...it can easily be a sign of excellent bike control!!! Andrew stroud next to never crashes...especially when compared to his peers at the front of the pack!! does that make him a ticking time bomb??

My Origonal point was not just about this one point.

One thing I didn't add to my origonal post was...the Mentors endorsment by the website seems to give them more weight when answering riding questions...and after reading a good handful of their repleys...alot of them lack reality and common sense...and seem to be answered more along the lines of what a Motogp ledgend woluld do...rather than what a newbie should do..

One thread was talking about finding yourself entering corners to hot.
A total myrid of stupid highly technical repleys..which yeah sure they are valid if you are rossi...but the point that members were answering a question to someone that is new to Motorcycles...wouldn't of taken much brain power to say slow down more. I would have thought?? wasn't really that technical...although...the question asker asked what ,common sense would have thought was a stupid question.

Meh...I'm getting over this topic

Common sense and rational thinking....are they becoming extinct?? Might go start a thread, on that topic sometime!

boomer

2nd November 2008, 10:42

Common sense and rational thinking....are they becoming extinct?? Might go start a thread on that topic sometime!

Just look at teh adds/campaigns on TV Poos... it says it all. The country perceives its minions to be fool hardy lacking common sense.... why should we disagree with THEM??!!

We're the idjiots for believing its not natural!

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 10:44

Andrew stroud next to never crashes...

Not these days, but how long ago did he start riding? Try asking him for a few stories from his youth...

Betcha he's fallen off a bike more times in total than anyone who's posted to this thread.

the Mentors endorsment by the website seems to give them more weight when answering riding questions...and after reading a good handful of their repleys...alot of them lack reality and common sense...

That's precisely what I'm getting at, too.

Squiggles

2nd November 2008, 10:44

Expand?

Ok - it might not even involve talking about motorcycles.

Cant rep again :lol:

I'm still trying to see exactly where the line is drawn in between mentoring and instructing, its clear in definition (Qualified, Unqualified).

So i guess the question is, do mentors critique riding technique? If i was riding around and on every right hander hugged the centre, rather than taking a line to give me better vision, would a mentor suggest i do so? (This would be teaching not mentoring right?) Would they critique at all?
Or is the mentoring system based more around attitude?

My understanding of the "KB Mentor" is leaning more towards the attitude side at the moment :)

yungatart

2nd November 2008, 10:45

I can't imagine why.

Why throw my "sensitivity' in to the equation then? Just another inane comment from you, with no thought or purpose?
I had credited you with slightly more intelligence, Dan. Obviously I can be wrong....not often tho

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 10:46

Why should everybody have to crash?

Everybody doesn't have to crash.

But I'd argue that it'd be very rare to find a qualified 'mentor' who hadn't.

Because not ever crashing means either that:

1. You're a nana, and therefore not in a position to convey bike control skills to others (not that there's anything wrong with that); or

2. You've been lucky and are one day going to be bitten in the arse by your inevitable overconfidence.

I'm sure that there will be many howls of 'bullshit!' in response to this, but I note that they'll almost certainly be unsupported with logic of their own.

:sherlock:

Why should people have to ride at the bikes capabilities, rather than their own?

They shouldn't!

But any 'mentor' should be someone with an intimate knowledge of all the ins and outs of how to actually ride a motorcycle.

Those who want to keep their own capabilities to a far smaller envelope than their machine's should certainly be left in peace to do so, but shouldn't be appointed to positions where n00bs will get instruction from them.

Because there will inevitably be wrong shit getting passed on.

Why is someone that hasn't crashed a ticking time bomb?

That's just one of the options; see my points 1. and 2. above.

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 10:46

Why throw my "sensitivity' in to the equation then?

Mostly because the way you jumped all over my post spoke volumes.

:msn-wink:

Mental Trousers

2nd November 2008, 10:48

....

When in doubt, throttle out is a simplification of what is taught to the newest riders at Basic Handling Skills etc by fully qualified and professional Rider Trainers all over the world. It's a simplification of the fact that a cornering motor bike has maximum grip when you have a bit of throttle, balancing the weight and forces between both tyres. Throttling off overloads the front and doesn't make maximum use of the rear.

It's generally agreed by those that are qualified that you teach best practices right from the start rather than telling people 1 thing when they're newbs then later on contradicting that and implying they were considered to stupid and to be shown the way things actually work from the start.

But that's a different thread and different argument so lets not carry it on here ...

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 10:50

I'm married and ride a BMW. What do YOU think....???

How could I possibly know? Hence the request for pix, etc.

Madness

2nd November 2008, 10:53

Nice day for a ride...

:doobey::msn-wink:

cowpoos

2nd November 2008, 10:57

When in doubt, throttle out is a simplification of what is taught to the newest riders at Basic Handling Skills etc by fully qualified and professional Rider Trainers all over the world. It's a simplification of the fact that a cornering motor bike has maximum grip when you have a bit of throttle, balancing the weight and forces between both tyres. Throttling off overloads the front and doesn't make maximum use of the rear.

yep completly valid/correct/proper tecnique/etc....but. 'the problem' he had was he kept finding himself entering corners to hot. that means he needs to learn to slow down more before a corner...so that he doesn't need to get in the predicament in the first place.

Quasievil

2nd November 2008, 10:58

LOL, I was only really pointing out thats is kinda funny that someone bothered to give me negative feedback on my mentor nomination when the last time I crashed on the road was when I was 17 in 1982, and yet someone who has crashed 5 times in the space of two years is a mentor despite negative feedback regarding that mentor application.

Mentoring should be about safety.

Re the other thread where I was involved in, I completely disagree with the whole when in doubt throttle it out ? thats not a good statement for a mentor to make I reckon ? (not that a mentor said it)

I give you permission to release publicaly ( poster names with held) the comments against my nomination, Should be a laugh !

(will be a load of crap but funny)

FROSTY

2nd November 2008, 10:58

An example? A mentoring session for me would not even necessarily involve getting on a motorcycle.
couldn't agree more on that one dude-:devil2:

FROSTY

2nd November 2008, 11:01

yep completly valid/correct/proper tecnique/etc....but. 'the problem' he had was he kept finding himself entering corners to hot. that means he needs to learn to slow down more before a corner...so that he doesn't need to get in the predicament in the first place.
so a new catchphrase for this mentoree perhaps SLOW in fast out
Yea I know its really OLD news

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 11:01

I give you permission to release publicaly ( poster names with held) the comments against my nomination, Should be a laugh !

Oooh, yes please, this should be good.

:corn:

C'mon, Shane, spill.

SixPackBack

2nd November 2008, 11:09

couldn't agree more on that one dude-:devil2:

Are you mad?..........katman happily admits to having poor social skills and is currently in the sin-bin. What the fuck could he teach/mentor anybody??
A teacher/mentor/manager [call them what you will] must be able to show empathy, to coax, be respected. Before he gets on the bike.
Katman is a prime example of who should not be a mentor, regardless of his apparent skills! being asked to suck his cock when a newbie pisses him off [as is his favourite response on here] is hardly the type of mentoring KB could collectivley hold up as a stellar response.

Mental Trousers

2nd November 2008, 11:10

Those that made any negative comments did so with the understanding that it was completely confidential. Nobody is giving out those details.

However, the comments in the public thread weren't what I was talking about cos I forgot about that one.

Poo's, good point I'd forgotten what the original problem was. Slow in, fast out and the best technique is the one that gets you on the throttle earliest both cover the basic ideas.

FROSTY

2nd November 2008, 11:12

nah...they probally won't be.
Because I would be questioning thier and other peoples judgment. and they would never seen to be wrong would they tony?
Mate actually I dissagree. Theres a few people put a fuck loada effort into the mentor scheme-so if someone is demonstrably a bad mentor then goshh I'm pretty darn sure they would wanna know.
On a personal note if I'm giving out wrong info I would DEFINITELY wanna know.

Usarka

2nd November 2008, 11:16

A teacher/mentor/manager [call them what you will] must be able to show empathy, to coax, be respected. Before he gets on the bike.

Yep. Mentors should not just be technically profficient, they must also understand the pyschological aspects, and be able to communicate and influence the mentoree....

On a personal note if I'm giving out wrong info I would DEFINITELY wanna know.
One sign of a good mentor....

FROSTY

2nd November 2008, 11:18

Are you mad?..........katman happily admits to having poor social skills and is currently in the sin-bin. What the fuck could he teach/mentor anybody??
A teacher/mentor/manager [call them what you will] must be able to show empathy, to coax, be respected. Before he gets on the bike.
Katman is a prime example of who should not be a mentor, regardless of his apparent skills! being asked to suck his cock when a newbie pisses him off [as is his favourite response on here] is hardly the type of mentoring KB could collectivley hold up as a stellar response.
Mate as a KBer Katman is a fucken prick I couldn't agree more.
But surely a persons online persona isn't what being a mentor is all about. Its surely about being able to offer good clear CORRECT advice to bikers at various levels of riding experience --From a newbee to a born again biker to someone with issues with race lines.

cowpoos

2nd November 2008, 11:19

Mate actually I dissagree.
and people do!!

MT reason for not releasing Quasi's negetive feedbacks...would be along the same lines as me naming names...and giving my person opinion of peoples riding...it would just be taken as a personal attack..no point pissing more people off me thinks.

FROSTY

2nd November 2008, 11:25

Ohh and heres my take on things.
You need a different kind of mentor to suit a different person and situation.
As an example
Jorja inadvertantly mentored someone just the other day. Because biking is so new to her the memories of just starting out are still fresh in her mind. Here we had a brand new biker saying she had sore neck and shoulders and the bike felt jerky in corners --Jorja piped up by saying "yea I had that --Had to remind myself to relax before riding"

Im happy to mentor a newbee racer with the stuff they need to go racing but once theyve done a couple of meetings I'd rather someone like Shaun was mentoring them .

Her_C4

2nd November 2008, 11:26

Mate as a KBer Katman is a fucken prick I couldn't agree more.

Subjective - I personally don't have a problem with his posts. He is making his point(s) very well.:niceone:

But surely a persons online persona isn't what being a mentor is all about. Its surely about being able to offer good clear CORRECT advice to bikers at various levels of riding experience --From a newbee to a born again biker to someone with issues with race lines.

Excellent - and that is what it is all about. I have never met the man in question - or indeed the majority of KB'ers, but I am damned sure that I would be looking at them OUTSIDE of a percieved on line personna.

It is after all only a website eh guys... :eek:

The best mentor for me - may not be the best mentor for someone else. By providing a variety of contacts for noobie riders, KB has facilitated that initial contact when looking for some info.

Commonsense and a logical approach (surely we all have that?!):devil2: will dictate whether we as individuals decide to 'follow their wheel' or find an alternative. I will only ride with those that I feel comfortable with.

I woudl be looking to different sorts / types / personalities for race / track mentoring as opposed to road myself. :clap:

MSTRS

2nd November 2008, 11:31

Being a Mentor does not include having to be perfect.
Everyone is different and people seem to have unreasonably high expectations of the Mentors.
Perfection is impossible, but good enough isn't enough for some people.

One thread was talking about finding yourself entering corners to hot.
A total myrid of stupid highly technical repleys..which yeah sure they are valid if you are rossi...but the point that members were answering a question to someone that is new to Motorcycles...wouldn't of taken much brain power to say slow down more. I would have thought??

Don't remember that thread, but if someone asked me what to do if they entered a corner too hot (at least for their skill level) I'd be telling them how to control their predicament. "Slow down" doesn't quite do it, when the 'too hot' and 'in the corner' are happening now. It doesn't even matter if the rider who's asking is more advanced...'slow down' is not the answer that will help. We've all? hit a corner too hot at times. How we kept it together may be a combo of learned skills and luck, or we might have binned it. Either way, and especially if a bin resulted, most of us will ask if there was something we could have done to save the day. "Slow down" is obvious, but too late. And we already figured that one out anyway.

SixPackBack

2nd November 2008, 11:32

Mate as a KBer Katman is a fucken prick I couldn't agree more.
But surely a persons online persona isn't what being a mentor is all about. Its surely about being able to offer good clear CORRECT advice to bikers at various levels of riding experience --From a newbee to a born again biker to someone with issues with race lines.

His ability to teach is fundamentaly tied to his ability to communicate!?.......and that ability is poor-very poor. Katmans inclusion in the scheme make me wonder what the fuck is going on!?

MSTRS

2nd November 2008, 11:41

His ability to teach is fundamentaly tied to his ability to communicate!?.......and that ability is poor-very poor. Katmans inclusion in the scheme make me wonder what the fuck is going on!?

In the interests of having a broad cross-section of experienced riders available as mentors, someone proposed KM and the members accepted him. We are all on trial anyway. Sooner or later, there will be a 'performance review'...some will stay, and some will be dropped. KM may stay and I may go. Who knows?
The proof of any mentor's suitability is in the experiences of those who used that particular mentor.

Jiminy

2nd November 2008, 11:53

This is how I perceive the difference between a trainer and a mentor. Just my 2c (and about 2'375 words ;))

When I want to learn something about riding, I'd ask a trainer.

When I want some hints and feedbacks about how I apply what I've learned in the training sessions, and how my riding evolves over time, I'd ask a mentor who can follow my progression.

From a mentor, I'd only expect an opinion which I can challenge, or use to challenge my own views.

I personally tend to prefer the opinions of many different riders with different experience levels than having a dedicated mentor. But if I was looking for a mentor, I appreciate that KB can point me to a few names. After all, KB has become far too important for NZ bikers to ignore its community role beyond being a simple forum. If I look for anything vaguely bike-related, KB is my first stop, and that role has become an important aspect of today's KB.

I don't know enough about the actual mentors or how they have been selected to comment. But I find the ':ME' extensions over the top. With the programme in place, I think it's easy enough for any rider to find a mentor on the site without needing the ':ME'. In my opinion, the ':ME' is just a sign of social achievement that is exactly the opposite of what being a mentor should be about.

People who've never crashed are either simply riding within only a tiny percentage of their bike's capabilities (and that includes people who only ever take the bike out of the garage on sunny days, etc) and are therefore unsuitable to convey information about motorcycle control dynamics, or they're ticking timebombs who don't know the risks they're running.

Or they might have fantastic skills in weather forecasting and safe riding that I'd both be happy to learn about.

There's sod all sane people on KB.

Ow, shit, I logged in the wrong forum again!

Sunny weather and not too much wind here anyway, time to go on the bike!

PrincessBandit

2nd November 2008, 12:00

In the interests of having a broad cross-section of experienced riders available as mentors.... We are all on trial anyway. Sooner or later, there will be a 'performance review'...some will stay, and some will be dropped. ...
The proof of any mentor's suitability is in the experiences of those who used that particular mentor.

I thought the idea of having a pool of mentors was that different people help in different ways. Personality can certainly have an influence on how we view others and whether we choose to listen to them or not, but others have been able to look past the personality issue and take what is helpful to them rather than dismissing someones help just because they might come across as obnoxious. If I went to a mentor for help and found that I really couldn't handle being in their company I would have to ask myself whether to stick with them or not based on a dispassionate view of what I think I can learn from them, or whether I should look for someone else. Bottom line is some people will hate certain mentors regardless of what they have to offer, others (while maybe never confessing to particularly like them) will have no problem working with them on whatever things they require help with. A sign perhaps of how grown up you are..........as Huesy said on Rove the other night "chillax wankwit"
p.s. that comment wasnt for you MSTRS (just thought I'd mention that as it was your quote I used to start my reply). It was for whoever on here it's needed for **sit back and wait for the red to flood in**

MSTRS

2nd November 2008, 12:06

I thought the idea of having a pool of mentors was that different people help in different ways.

Yep. I meant that, as well as having plenty available because not every one can help when the question is asked.

James Deuce

2nd November 2008, 12:13

Too much talking.

Not enough riding.

I think I might ride to work now.

enigma51

2nd November 2008, 12:24

Its dark days when compoos starts a thread like this ...... and i agree with him.

These are strange days ahead ...... fuck i hope the greenies dont win the election

cowpoos

2nd November 2008, 12:42

Its dark days when compoos starts a thread like this ...... and i agree with him.

Its about time you grew up!!

Ixion

2nd November 2008, 12:56

Pfft, you can't measure someone's riding competence by how many times they haven't crashed.

People who've never crashed are either simply riding within only a tiny percentage of their bike's capabilities (and that includes people who only ever take the bike out of the garage on sunny days, etc) and are therefore unsuitable to convey information about motorcycle control dynamics, or they're ticking timebombs who don't know the risks they're running.

Or perhaps they have the sense to restrict exploration of extremes to off road situations (whether a race track environment or dirt/beach). Personally I would not criticise anyone who has crashed any number of times in a non-public-road context. But a 'mentor'/'trainer' who repeatedly crashes on the public road , IMHO, either lacks technical capabilties, or lacks the judgement and sense of "time and place" essential for such a role. And one who crashes in both contexts is even worse, since he/she must necessarily have failed to learn the lessons that the off road crashes can teach. Pushing limits off road may lead to a crash. That is why one pushes those limits. Only one lacking wisdom does that on the public road. And, having determined those limits, it would be even greater folly not to respect them and stay well clear of them when riding on the road.

Note that I am assuming here that the mentoring is related to road riding ,as is usually the case. Someone mentoring racers is another matter. And that off road riding can never teach roadcraft which is the most important thing to not being injured on the road.

Ixion

2nd November 2008, 12:59

Are you mad?..........katman happily admits to having poor social skills and is currently in the sin-bin. What the fuck could he teach/mentor anybody??
..

Oh, like, maybe, not crashing ? Staying alive? That sort of stuff.

While I do not always see eye to eye with Mr Katman , he is one of the few people on KB to whom I would be happy to entrust the training of a young person . Drill instructors are seldom popular either but they do manage to turn recruits into soldiers.

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 13:13

Or perhaps they have the sense to restrict exploration of extremes to off road situations (whether a race track environment or dirt/beach).

Agreed. Getting one's crashing done off of the public roads (dirt, sand, or racetrack) is the best way to go, IMHO.

When I said 'never crashed', I meant never crashed.

But a 'mentor'/'trainer' who repeatedly crashes...

See, that's an important distinction to make. Crashes happen, but when someone doesn't learn from their mistakes, you have to worry. The fact that someone has binned a bike is neither here nor there - the real question is what they took away from that.

having determined those limits...

Precisely. If one has no idea what the limits actually are, it makes it difficult to pass any meaningful wisdom along.

James Deuce

2nd November 2008, 13:52

Precisely. If one has no idea what the limits actually are, it makes it difficult to pass any meaningful wisdom along.

We've been here before chap. You're firmly in the track days Uber Alles camp and you have this misguided notion that "limits" revolve solely around physics. Rationality, reason, compassion, courtesy, relative capability (think laterally), adaptability, creativity, flexibility all have limits. The physical limitations of the motorcycle are vastly less important than the mental limitations of the rider. BTW, I view an inability to accept that people who spend most of their time on the road riding legally might actually be good motorcyclists as a limitation.

You're misguided in your base assumptions about what defines a good rider on the road, as are 99.98% of KBers.

But it will be a long time before you get what us old slow people are trying to say.

MSTRS

2nd November 2008, 14:18

But it will be a long time before you get what us old slow people are trying to say.

Hmmm...it were ever the same. Testosterone-filled bravado being replaced with age-earned wisdom? And one does not relate nor listen to the other.
What a good thing we have a mix of 'types' as mentors.

Boob Johnson

2nd November 2008, 14:18

While I do not always see eye to eye with Mr Katman , he is one of the few people on KB to whom I would be happy to entrust the training of a young person. Drill instructors are seldom popular either but they do manage to turn recruits into soldiers.
You don't see the fallout figures though do you, the Army is a very different one to days gone by <_<

You are aware (with that analogy) that they have had to tone the Army drill instructors down in recent years? Fewer people these days respect or respond to that type of instruction.

ps: Struth hope you buggers have gotten out for a ride today, bloody gorgeous weather, I managed just a short one :sunny: :love:

James Deuce

2nd November 2008, 14:27

You are aware (with that analogy) that they have had to tone the Army drill instructors down in recent years? Fewer people these days respect or respond to that type of instruction.

That isn't a good thing.

An inability to respond immediately in time of crisis to instructions that seem counter productive, especially in the realm of personal safety, gets people killed.

It speaks more about the society that refuses to value serving one's country above personal rights than it does about bastard drill instructors. It's their job to make sure recruits understand that life isn't fair.

SixPackBack

2nd November 2008, 14:41

Oh, like, maybe, not crashing ? Staying alive? That sort of stuff.

While I do not always see eye to eye with Mr Katman , he is one of the few people on KB to whom I would be happy to entrust the training of a young person . Drill instructors are seldom popular either but they do manage to turn recruits into soldiers.

Interesting analogy. Drill instructors start individuals on the road to killing, not cajole younguns into riding a motorcycle. This 'aint the 50's, and it 'aint the army!

While its true some folk will have the ability to see past the questionable manner-many will not. Those that do not will come away with a negative impression of KB and KBers and worse perhaps motorcycling as well.

I accept mentors are not entered into a popularity contest but they do need additional attributes outside of the ability to ride a motorcycle. Those attributes include the ability to communicate on an individual level, empathy and the ability to give respect and be respected.

Katman

2nd November 2008, 14:42

Now fucking drop and give me 50, maggot!!!!!!!!

:msn-wink:

McJim

2nd November 2008, 14:46

I accept mentors are not entered into a popularity contest but they do need additional attributes outside of the ability to ride a motorcycle. Those attributes include the ability to communicate on an individual level, empathy and the ability to give respect and be respected.

More specifically one of the roles of Mentor is to provide encouagement. This doesn't get provided by a constant barage of negative comments - even if they are always signed "Fuckwit" :rofl:

Pussy

2nd November 2008, 14:47

That isn't a good thing.

An inability to respond immediately in time of crisis to instructions that seem counter productive, especially in the realm of personal safety, gets people killed.

It speaks more about the society that refuses to value serving one's country above personal rights than it does about bastard drill instructors. It's their job to make sure recruits understand that life isn't fair.

Another pearl of wisdom, Jim! There will always be those who aren't tough enough to hack the pace, who want their Mummy when things get a bit tough. I suppose we should send them a bunch of flowers. Poofters!

jrandom

2nd November 2008, 15:20

But it will be a long time before you get what us old slow people are trying to say.

I understand and support what you're trying to say.

Bear in mind, though, that I'm not one of your gung-ho toothpaste-tube racer wannabes; I know I'm a plodding and mostly uncoordinated rider, and am quite happy to live within my own modest limitations.

So I think you might be generalising my comments overmuch and doing a bit of a Chicken Little; I'm simply pointing out that there are 'mentors' who lack basic bike control capabilities.

It would be just as valid to point out that there are 'mentors' who lack communication skills (as I note that some people who haven't met him in person have claimed is the case with Katman), or have a terrible attitude toward safety.

My primary underlying issue is that I want to see motorcycling attitudes and skills percolating around in an equitable manner amongst peer groups, not being decreed from on high. The particular shortcomings I've pointed out in this thread are just examples of what happens when that formula isn't adhered to.

I generally don't support any effort of a community to organise itself into a hierarchy. It inevitably results in unworthy individuals preening themselves over arbitrary status symbols. Distasteful.

MSTRS

2nd November 2008, 16:49

Geez Dan. I wouldn't have thought you'd be a proponent of anarchy on our roads. Except insofaras as it relates to you and your riding, that is :innocent:
And what peer group learning are you talking about? Your basic newbie who doesn't know he's not Rossi being shown the ropes by Carver, say? One of your basic AU types imparting his 'skills' to Mr Mid-life Crisis Returnee? They aren't peers, and that is a recipe for disaster.
And what hierarchy? Preening itself?
What bollocks.

Mom

2nd November 2008, 17:09

The KB Mentor programme revival/renewal has been formulated with every best intention. A few members have spent a huge amount of time putting together what they in their collective wisdom thought was the best it could be. Who am I to argue with it.

I may or may not have some concerns about some that have been nominated, I may or may not choose to voice those concerns. I may or may not feel the confidentiality of the naysayers via PM, could be compromised unwittingly or deliberately sometime in the future. I may or may not be concerned about personalities/relationships colouring decision making.

As a result of the official mentoring program I may or may not ever post up I am prepared to help someone with their riding as I am not an "official" mentor, despite the fact that this scheme is not intended to stop people from offering to do just that.

I am not about to criticise the process either, like I said, a few members put a hell of a lot of effort into its development, like it or lump it, we have it.

Virago

2nd November 2008, 17:24

...I generally don't support any effort of a community to organise itself into a hierarchy. It inevitably results in unworthy individuals preening themselves over arbitrary status symbols. Distasteful.

Therein lies the problem.

A few people put up their hands to say "I'm willing help out", and the tall poppy bashers immediately declare them to be a "self-appointed hierarchy".

You see it happen in all groups. A small number of people are willing to do things for others. Another small group despise and ridicule them for it.

< Ramble warning on >

Like the majority of people, I've spent most of my life avoiding "community" type work. If you keep your hand down long enough, someone else will reluctantly volunteer...

A few years back (when my kids were starting at Primary School), I was reading the Board of Trustees meeting minutes in the school newsletter, and noticed mention of getting quotes for repairs to the Fire Alarm. I phoned the school and said "I can fix it for you, no charge". A few months later, the BoT elections were held, and my arm was twisted...

I served six years, during which I found myself being a relucant organiser.

Thing is, it was the same faces I saw around the school. The PTA members, making cheese rolls for fundraising. The same faces would turn up for the occasional working bee. The same faces manning the road crossing patrol on a freezing cold morning.

After six years I had done my share, and stepped down. I had done my bit for the local community, time for someone else to give it a go.

Regrets? Not many, but the main disappointment was feedback from some families about the "elitist few who ran the school". And yes, it hurt.

There is a point to this rambling.

Those who have put there names on the line, are simply willing amateurs who are happy to support and encourage learner riders. Nothing more, nothing less.

They do not deserve your scorn and ridicule.

NighthawkNZ

2nd November 2008, 17:39

< Ramble warning on >

You forgot to turn it off again... err you blinker is still on... :Pokey:

Ixion

2nd November 2008, 17:40

You don't see the fallout figures though do you, the Army is a very different one to days gone by <_<

You are aware (with that analogy) that they have had to tone the Army drill instructors down in recent years? Fewer people these days respect or respond to that type of instruction.

I suspect that it might be for the best if those who are unable to respond to "that type of instruction" were to drop out of the ranks of motorcycling.

When things turn pear shaped, there is no time to remember what one was taught. Or to analyse. Survival depends on near instantaneous response. Correct response. Without thinking. It is not a matter of remembering or implementing instruction. It is a matter of conditioned reflex and muscle memory. The correct response must have been so drilled in that it is done automatically without thought. Which is exactly what drill instructors inculated. And the laws of physics do not stand or argument , and have no respect at all for fairness or human rights.

It's not about fairness, it's about staying alive. For bikers as well as soldiers.

DMNTD

2nd November 2008, 17:42

I'll happily step down as a so-called KB mentor if others disagree with me being one as I'll continue to offer help and advice to people that ask anyway.

Virago

2nd November 2008, 17:43

You forgot to turn it off again... err you blinker is still on... :Pokey:

Oops - damn it...

< Ramble warning off >

boomer

2nd November 2008, 17:44

Therein lies the problem.

A few people put up their hands to say "I'm willing help out", and the tall poppy bashers immediately declare them to be a "self-appointed hierarchy".

You see it happen in all groups. A small number of people are willing to do things for others. Another small group despise and ridicule them for it.

< Ramble warning on >

Like the majority of people, I've spent most of my life avoiding "community" type work. If you keep your hand down long enough, someone else will reluctantly volunteer...

A few years back (when my kids were starting at Primary School), I was reading the Board of Trustees meeting minutes in the school newsletter, and noticed mention of getting quotes for repairs to the Fire Alarm. I phoned the school and said "I can fix it for you, no charge". A few months later, the BoT elections were held, and my arm was twisted...

I served six years, during which I found myself being a relucant organiser.

Thing is, it was the same faces I saw around the school. The PTA members, making cheese rolls for fundraising. The same faces would turn up for the occasional working bee. The same faces manning the road crossing patrol on a freezing cold morning.

After six years I had done my share, and stepped down. I had done my bit for the local community, time for someone else to give it a go.

Regrets? Not many, but the main disappointment was feedback from some families about the "elitist few who ran the school". And yes, it hurt.

There is a point to this rambling.

Those who have put there names on the line, are simply willing amateurs who are happy to support and encourage learner riders. Nothing more, nothing less.

They do not deserve your scorn and ridicule.

This one time...at band camp..!!!

The point being raised is that some people's skills are being questioned...! stop being so defensive and realise its not an attack but a point of view meant to help the helpless.

Henk

2nd November 2008, 17:49

Nice ramble Virago. Have seen this in the few clubs I have been actively involved in 3% of the membership does 98% of the work. If you don't grow a thick skin quick you bail even faster. If you do grow the requisite hide you bail eventually anyway, as it turns into an unpaid job and the bitching eventualy gts to you, even without the bitching you run out of enthusiasm eventualy. This thread seems to have turned into a mildly entertaining flame war that isn't going to solve anything or change anyones opinion.

MSTRS

2nd November 2008, 17:55

The point being raised is that some people's skills are being questioned...! stop being so defensive and realise its not an attack but a point of view meant to help the helpless.

POV. Critique. Attack. Call it what you will...
In the presence of veiled aspersions and the absence of any encouragement, tis difficult not to see some posters views as being anything but criticism.
Some of the originally proposed and appointed mentors withdraw their 'support' for this very reason (I think). If one is not a soldier, does one volunteer to put one's head above the parapet, considering nobody is ordering one to do so?

boomer

2nd November 2008, 18:01

Deano

2nd November 2008, 18:04

Meh...I'm getting over this topic

You started it bro. :msn-wink:

I have kept out of it so far. To be honest I don't quite see what the fuss is about, but I am on one side of the fence.

I haven't taken any of the 'general' criticisms to heart. Mentors didn't get to see the negative feedback as far as I am aware, so I wasn't privy to any bad feedback.

I am no saint, I have a history, I have crashed on the road a number of times too. Not for a while though and not on the race track yet either. Maybe I'm mellowing in my *cough* middle age. Nah - I'm still getting faster on the track. :niceone:

Anyway - I have been riding for 'quite' a while, and believe that I have something to offer newbies, if anyone wants the advice. I'm not in it for popularity.

Thats all.

MSTRS

2nd November 2008, 18:04

Criticism or not...it's what you do with it that counts.

Mighty succinct of you, Boomer. And quite astute as well. :eek:
Are 'we' not doing a fair job of things?

Deano

2nd November 2008, 18:10

A few people put up their hands to say "I'm willing help out", and the tall poppy bashers immediately declare them to be a "self-appointed hierarchy".
.

See it's not like we even put our hands up. We were nominated.

I'll happily step down as a so-called KB mentor if others disagree with me being one as I'll continue to offer help and advice to people that ask anyway.

+1 (depending on who the 'others' are).

I'm all for transparency though.

SixPackBack

2nd November 2008, 18:10

POV. Critique. Attack. Call it what you will...
In the presence of veiled aspersions and the absence of any encouragement, tis difficult not to see some posters views as being anything but criticism.
Some of the originally proposed and appointed mentors withdraw their 'support' for this very reason (I think). If one is not a soldier, does one volunteer to put one's head above the parapet, considering nobody is ordering one to do so?

Encouragement??.......... the invested time has been well worth it, the vast majority of mentors seem superbly well suited.
Unanswered questions remain over fringe elements-defensive positions do nothing to defuse [or answer] plebian concerns.
Repark the waaahmbulance:msn-wink:

MSTRS

2nd November 2008, 18:14

.......... the invested time has been well worth it, the vast majority of mentors seem superbly well suited...

Our collective egos feel well-stroked...
Of course, I may be in the other category?
:devil2:

Katman

2nd November 2008, 18:18

Of course, I may be in the other category?
:devil2:

You better hope not. That would put you in my group.

:msn-wink:

boomer

2nd November 2008, 18:25

Mighty succinct of you, Boomer. And quite astute as well. :eek:
Are 'we' not doing a fair job of things?

I cant comment; i haven't ridden with "We"

What i can say is tho.. if my son was learning to ride right now.. there's no way in hell he'd be learning from a couple of mentors; those who i have seen ride !!!

And Chris.. this is not you brother; your a crazy mother, as we all can be, but i know you'd wear the right hat(persona) at the time of mentoring and have the common sense to pass on !

MSTRS

2nd November 2008, 18:34

You better hope not. That would put you in my group.
That is a group of one. No room for any more. Thanks , anyway.

I cant comment; i haven't ridden with "We"

What i can say is tho.. if my son was learning to ride right now.. there's no way in hell he'd be learning from a couple of mentors; those who i have seen ride !!!

And Chris.. this is not you brother; your a crazy mother, as we all can be, but i know you'd wear the right hat(persona) at the time of mentoring and have the common sense to pass on !

This is not aimed at you, Boomer, or anyone in particular...but this is what I meant by 'veiled aspersions'. Naming and shaming is never approved for any reason on KB, but if anyone has major concerns about one of the 'hierarchy', then a PM to Mental Trousers stating the facts (as you see them) would be in order.

Mental Trousers

2nd November 2008, 19:00

And Chris.. this is not you brother; your a crazy mother, as we all can be, but i know you'd wear the right hat(persona) at the time of mentoring and have the common sense to pass on !

And that right there is always the number 1 concern for those running the Mentor programme, can the person in question step up when they're asked and be a capable Mentor.

There's been quite a few that didn't make it because the people running the Mentor programme weren't convinced that those candidates could measure up.

Nasty

2nd November 2008, 19:04

This one time...at band camp..!!!

The point being raised is that some people's skills are being questioned...! stop being so defensive and realise its not an attack but a point of view meant to help the helpless.

its easy .. if people are concerned of the skills of particular mentors take it up with the senior mentors ... they can then address them!

cowboyz

2nd November 2008, 19:41

The other thing worth mentioning is the old "KB is not a democracy" - yet the mentors were picked via a democratic process. Still can't keep everybody happy.

Democratic but not transparrent because fuck knows what might happen if someone got offended because some random on the internet makes some comment about them not being good at mentoring or something.

From my understanding any bitch fighting that Cowboyz has been up to has nothing to do with mentor selection at all (also from what I have seen the bitch fighting was after the first lot of mentors selected were announced though I may have the timing wrong on that one).

Cowboyz was our resident mentor under the old system but with the bitch fighting thats gone on he appears to have been deemed unsuitable.

I have only just caught up with this thread after talking with Bonez on the ride today.
I pulled out of the moderator program on my own accord long before upsetting the mods. 2 completely unrelated incidents.

Why I pulled out of the mentor programme - the officail release from EMU#1

1. After exchanging pms with various people in the setup of the mentor programme I decided it was not going to offer the support or commitment from kiwibiker to warrent my support or commitment.
2. With some thought put into the influence of certain mods to the actual manawatu rides and how the rides have been changed from a group of guys getting out on their bikes and enjoying some roads to a group of guys who are expected to babysit others, the enjoyment of what we started was lacking. (to qualify - I am not suggesting for a minute that I object to newbies on rides, in fact, it was not actually the newbies causing the problems - it was others that felt the newbies needed babysitting)

Poos-- My opinion here. If you have an issue with one or more mentors then please FFS speak up.
Seriously mate -I couldn't agree more with your concern that mentors need to be up to scratch and I'm fairly sure that the people "in charge" of the program would be gratefull for your feedback.

I have no doubt that KB and all its factions are a popularity contest. Just my opinion. There are some you cant disagree with and there are some that simply dont listen to anything apart from their own opinion.
Not to mention there is always someone waiting in the wings to yell waaambulance whenever an issue is raised..... (look below for an example)

Owl

2nd November 2008, 22:08

(look below for an example)

Either your presence has been felt, or you've been in here swing your light sabre EMU-WAN. Even the tags have fooked off!:rofl:

CookMySock

3rd November 2008, 07:59

Seems to be a lot of people bagging the mentor 'system'. I don't see any of the baggers putting their hands up and suggesting something 'better'. The current mentor system was fully developed before I even knew of its existance. I commented to a few at the top of the food chain that "gee I'd like to be involved with that" an got told that, a.) it was already set in concrete, and b.) that I didn't have the required experience.

Steve

MSTRS

3rd November 2008, 08:01

All this conspiracy/hidden agenda/secret squirrel/lack of transparency/power tripping/popularity contest stuff is old/stale/bullshit.
The mentor system was implemented in it's current form to address a need, and to ensure that only suitable mentors were appointed. The mentors themselves were nominated and approved by their peers (KB as a whole). They are there to help if asked. If any particular mentor can't help for any reason, they will pass the asker on to another mentor who can help. If a mentor is not asked for help, then they are just another log-in/biker like anyone else. They have no special powers or privileges. And any mentor that goes around offending people by giving help that's not wanted, or is inappropriate, will likely not stay long as a mentor.
Newbies are free to seek help, or not, where-ever they like, but if they ask for help through the resource that is KB, surely they are entitled to know that they will be looked after? That is the only reason there is a mentor system.

NighthawkNZ

3rd November 2008, 08:03

boomer

3rd November 2008, 08:06

and to ensure that only suitable mentors were appointed.

fail......!

boomer

3rd November 2008, 08:10

Everyone had the option of putting feedback on all nominated mentors ... if they didn't bother then that was their choice to not help/assist in making this a success.

And your point..??!

I find you quite offensive... you're going on teh ignore list.

MSTRS

3rd November 2008, 08:15

fail......!

Who failed?

boomer

3rd November 2008, 08:18

Criticism or not...it's what you do with it that counts.

Who failed?

Me and all the other noobs..???

Jantar

3rd November 2008, 08:31

The current mentor system was fully developed before I even knew of its existance. I commented to a few at the top of the food chain that "gee I'd like to be involved with that" an got told that, a.) it was already set in concrete, and b.) that I didn't have the required experience.

Steve

The requirements for becoming a mentor were posted in http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1693120&postcount=2

If you believe you meet those requirements then simply get someone to nominate you, and provide two suitable referees. We will check out those references, the senior mentor from your area will review the nomination and make a recommendation and the nomination will be publicly notified. After there has been a suitable period to obtain feed back then the appointment will be confirmed or not.

If by being "......involved with that" meant that you would have liked an input into how it was being set up, then that is no problem as anyone can make comment openly (as in this thread) or privately via pm at any time. We are always looking for ways of making the programme safer and more available.

Headbanger

3rd November 2008, 09:24

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/bgold/statusicon/wol_error.gif Sorry Nasty is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.

Epic fail.

Tank

3rd November 2008, 09:27

The current mentor system was fully developed before I even knew of its existance. I commented to a few at the top of the food chain that "gee I'd like to be involved with that" an got told that, a.) it was already set in concrete, and b.) that I didn't have the required experience.

Steve

I would add you dont have the right attitude either.

Okies, with all the stupid antics happening to bikers from non-el-thinko cagers etc, I think a useful skill to have would be "How to put a good boot-sized dent in a car door while under way on a motorcyle."

DB

Heh I thought I was late for my R test (clock on bike was fast) everyone on the road I passed musta wondered what the fuck a noisy 650 vtwin was doing passing everyone at 140k with a fucken learner plate on.

DB

I must say the Mentors that I have met have been fantastic and I've recommend 'the program' to many others - I certainly believe it helped me tremendously.

But the above is not the kind of behavior mentors should be encouraging. My 2c is that you have to have a 'reasonably' stable online persona as well - else the noob riders will actually take this kind of rubbish on board also.

Katman

3rd November 2008, 09:31

My 2c is that you have to have a 'reasonably' stable online persona as well

Well, I've never been that drunk that I've actually fallen off my chair.

:msn-wink:

OutForADuck

3rd November 2008, 10:03

Wow I am amazed at how this is such a passionate subject.

I am not a mentor on this site but I, like most more experienced riders I know love to mentor, to assist others in learning to be fast and safe. We all take a different view on what that means, just as the people being mentored take a different view on what they want to learn. None of us expect our advice to be taken as gospel or people to not judge for themselves what was good and reliable advice.

Should I mentor? Do I have experience that “might” help newer riders progress, stay safe and enjoy their riding more, should I still expect them to take responsibility for their skills progression and life’s risks.

Of course I should, as should every rider with something to pass on to others. The issue that KB have addressed is the confusion amongst new riders on who to ask for advice as they are beginning to judge and assess who to listen to.

Good on KB for trying to encourage better riding by encouraging better skills transfer, not only might it make for a lot of people who are safer but I am sure it will make for a lot of people who enjoy their riding a lot more!!!

Let’s hope that they also get that the term Mentor doesn’t mean perfect or capable of teaching them in every way or more importantly removing from them the responsibility of judging what advice they take and apply to their riding anymore than it should mean to those that have something to offer that they are lesser valued or should not mentor.

We are a community of motorcycling, lets grow as a community and all help each other to be fast, safe, full of fun and skilled in as many ways as possible.

After all we are all here to get more out of one of our passions by sharing with others that passion!!!!

Katman

3rd November 2008, 10:17

CookMySock

3rd November 2008, 10:28

To be concise, my only objection has been a small number of mentors appointed who have acted in a disgusting manner to other KB members. I cannot imagine why I might approach them for advice.

But hey, many bikers are assholes, and maybe thats just the way of it.

I don't question the quality of the advice at all - I am persuaded they would not have been appointed at all if their methodology was dangerously wrong - I just would be embarrassed to approach them.

On a personal note, I'm disappointed to not be a mentor, but I don't have anything but basic experience, so I am happy enough with that. ish. <_< I still get to mentor my kids, so maybe I'll have it out of my system by then.

Steve

OutForADuck

3rd November 2008, 10:43

I would like to think that none of the appointed mentors have a desire to teach new riders how to be fast on the road.

Smooth - yes. Safe - yes. Considerate - yes.

The implications and probable result of trying to teach others to be fast on the road is for further two wheeled carnage.

Please don't mis-read my intentions. FAST doesn't mean dangerous or for that matter breaking laws. I have passed the UK Police Class A riders and in that you MUST be fast through or fail. They call it "Making progress" if you can't safely get through traffic faster than a car then they argue you are not skilled enough. They also teach "filtering" which is contraversal yet they are regarded as the highest level of motorcycle street training.

Safe is as relative a term as fast. Skills and not taking unassessed risks are one of the greatest things I have learnt, but I accept I am taking a risk ( and I accept this personally) every time I sit on my bike!!!

Katman

3rd November 2008, 10:48

Please don't mis-read my intentions.

Yes, I realised after I posted that your actual words were "fast and safe".

However, I still feel that any accelerated method of teaching a new rider to be fast on the road is asking for trouble.

Jantar

3rd November 2008, 10:50

.....Safe is as relative a term as fast. Skills and not taking unassessed risks are one of the greatest things I have learnt, but I accept I am taking a risk ( and I accept this personally) every time I sit on my bike!!!

Exactly. This is again one of the reasons why mentors are not expected to be instructors. A mentor is there to encourage riders to develop their skills in a safe manner. Riding is always a risk, but so is life in general. Lets just make it enjoyable while lessening those risks.

MSTRS

3rd November 2008, 12:42

Yes, I realised after I posted that your actual words were "fast and safe".

We all take different meaning from the written word...
I understood him to mean an increased average speed, due to smoother riding transitions.

Quasievil

3rd November 2008, 12:53

Im still a mentor as I give advise regulary to those that ask, and on the road I think Im a strong role model, however I dont think Its necersary to have an endorsement from KB to do it, nor do I feel that I need to outwardly advertise myself on KB as being available for mentoring with a great big tag "ME" to highlight the KB perception that I .........may be a better rider than the others........... because so and so said so, and so and so backed up so and so on that point...........

I think the processes of nomination, are so obviously floored that we may well have "mentors" that in actual fact arent really such great mentors after all, perhaps we have some mentors that can easily rally up support and therefore by default become a mentor, the process it seems to me was more of a polictical election than a investigation pior to an approval, for instance, there was some negative remarks about me becoming a mentor (unbelieveable as it sounds) but where was the investigation ? I wasnt asked about said comments, is it true, did you really do that ? explain this please................nope nought! on that basis alone the process is floored.

I really think that KB doesnt actually need to be doing this, I think there are plenty of people around quite capable of offering advise on a one to one basis (thats always been the way in the history of motorcycling)
without the need for a systemized process for a mentor programme.

In saying all that, I know alot of people put a bit of time into this and I congratulate them on the efforts, though I reckon on reflection we might have organised a system that didnt need organising.

Katman

3rd November 2008, 13:08

nor do I feel that I need to outwardly advertise myself on KB as being available for mentoring with a great big tag "ME"

You should have just done what I did - collect a few infraction points.

(All right - maybe more than just a few).

:whistle:

ManDownUnder

3rd November 2008, 14:27

Any questions about mentors should be adressable by a peer review system per the scientific community. Not easy to set up but it's a proven method for improving such a fluid groups of contributors, each with their related but different areas of expertise.

I personally favour the group training approach with 5+ old hands all contributing to a group training session. That worked quite well.

Those learning got to see a variety of styles in action and if they wanted more one on one time with someone they trusted then it could be arranged.

Jantar

3rd November 2008, 15:30

....

I personally favour the group training approach with 5+ old hands all contributing to a group training session. That worked quite well.

.....

But that is training, not mentoring. Offering training is where the potential for legal liability comes into play. Mentors are not all qualified trainers (although some are). Mentors can advise, but not teach.

ManDownUnder

3rd November 2008, 15:45

But that is training, not mentoring. Offering training is where the potential for legal liability comes into play. Mentors are not all qualified trainers (although some are). Mentors can advise, but not teach.

How bout we go for "teaching" then. It all sounds like verbal masturbation to me to be honest. Group mentoring?

I'd have thought legal responsibility comes in if there is an exchange of consideration (i.e. payment in cash or kind) but I don't want to open that whole can of worms again if that's already been spoken about but those setting this thing up.

I would expect the payment for services would being with it some professional responsibilities (and threat of possible recourse) but the lack of it wouldn't.

Anyway - just my 5c... happy to butt out as the Mentoring system doesn't worry me too much. It seems quite good from afar (not being intimately involved)

MSTRS

3rd November 2008, 16:16

There are people out there who offer training for money. They can be found through KB as well. As I said before, KB can be a great resource. But those people are operating outside of KB, as an 'entity', and one would hope that they have the likes of Public Liability Insurance etc as part of their operation.
No such cover is offered by KB since the program consists of amateurs helping amateurs. It's been well-publicised as to the conditions those helpers had to meet, so there could be at least some certainty that they would have the skills reqd. That some on here feel that some of the mentors don't measure up is sad, but that may only be their opinion, where others had/have a different opinion. As I also said way back, there will be reviews held periodically to check on individual performance and perhaps even the mentor program as well.

Mental Trousers

3rd November 2008, 17:46

How bout we go for "teaching" then. It all sounds like verbal masturbation to me to be honest. Group mentoring?

You're talking about legal shit, of course it's masturbation.

PrincessBandit

3rd November 2008, 18:19

I have passed the UK Police Class A riders and in that you MUST be fast through or fail. They call it "Making progress" if you can't safely get through traffic faster than a car then they argue you are not skilled enough. They also teach "filtering" which is contraversal yet they are regarded as the highest level of motorcycle street training.

This question is not intended to take a swipe - it is a genuine query: Is the test you refer to for the general riding population, or is it a test executed within the Police Academy/Training school thingy? Your comment could be misinterpreted if it turns out that it's a Police training thing. If it is a test for motorcycle riders in general which comes under the Police umbrella, then I see the relevance. I guess if it's the former rather than the latter then what applies to police bike cops doesn't necessarily translate to what non-law enforcement riders need to be able to do. Sorry if I'm barking up the totally wrong tree, i just think it needs clarification. :confused:

discotex

3rd November 2008, 21:20

The requirements for becoming a mentor were posted in http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1693120&postcount=2

Requirements start at 10 years experience and come down. The more Desirable qualities a person has, the lower the time requirement gets. Dropping to minimum 7 years required is relatively easy. Dropping to minimum 5 years experience is very hard. Nobody goes below 5 years experience unless they are qualified Riding Instructors, multiple New Zealand title holders or other exceptional circumstances (Administrators discretion).

This is what I don't understand... 7-10 years?

I have a bunch of knowledge around roadcraft and bike handling to pass on to learners - and I will continue to do so regardless of the KB system. Just seems odd I couldn't be nominated if someone happened to think I should be.

People like gijoe, Donor and Maverick are in this boat as well and as already mentioned would make great mentors. Hell gijoe has probably ridden more km than some mentors will do in 10 years.

Maybe there should be a "held full license for >2 years if you're over 25" rule or something as I'm sure the intent was to weed out nutty 20 year old know-it-alls.

So now, who's going to be my trackday mentor and give me the learn?

Jantar

3rd November 2008, 21:44

This is what I don't understand... 7-10 years?

I have a bunch of knowledge around roadcraft and bike handling to pass on to learners - and I will continue to do so regardless of the KB system. Just seems odd I couldn't be nominated if someone happened to think I should be.

....

So now, who's going to be my trackday mentor and give me the learn?

The reason for the long experience time is to ensure that the mentor has a wide variety of experience. Different types of bikes, different roads, different weather conditions etc. It isn't only newbie riders who ask for mentors, it may be returning riders on a 109, or an experienced road rider who is looking for adventure, or a rural rider who has moved to the city (or visa versa). Where someone is a specialist in a particular field, the time may be reduced, but never below 5 years total riding.

Now we are not saying that you shouldn't continue to pass on your experience to learners. That would be counter productive, and its good that any rider will pass on what they have personally experienced. As you do pass on your knowledge you will also gain knowledge on assessing riders, and in time that gain will make you a good mentor.

As for a trackday mentor? We do have a couple of experienced racers who may be prepared to help.

98tls

3rd November 2008, 21:55

Complicated all this eh,to be honest i am just glad i learnt to ride in the mentorless years as with all this going on there would be no time left to ride.:innocent:

DMNTD

3rd November 2008, 21:57

So now, who's going to be my trackday mentor and give me the learn?

More than happy to offer opinion

boomer

3rd November 2008, 22:02

More than happy to offer opinion

On how to receive..??! :bleh:

reofix

3rd November 2008, 22:06

mentors are like mba's... sold and taught by failures... caveat emptor

OutForADuck

4th November 2008, 09:00

This question is not intended to take a swipe - it is a genuine query: Is the test you refer to for the general riding population, or is it a test executed within the Police Academy/Training school thingy? Your comment could be misinterpreted if it turns out that it's a Police training thing. If it is a test for motorcycle riders in general which comes under the Police umbrella, then I see the relevance. I guess if it's the former rather than the latter then what applies to police bike cops doesn't necessarily translate to what non-law enforcement riders need to be able to do. Sorry if I'm barking up the totally wrong tree, i just think it needs clarification. :confused:

So to clarify the test is for the Police AND is also used to teach the advanced instructors for the IAM group which is monitored by the police for standards. I completed the NZ course as a member of the police but the UK one from outside the Police.

IAM can be explained here http://www.iam.org.uk/ and the motorcycle stuff is covered here http://www.iam.org.uk/aboutus/IAM+Motorcycling/

Basically its a charity that organises mentoring in a more structured way than KB attempts to and with the support of the UK Met. All advanced instructors must have passed the Class A motorcycle course at Hendon and "students" are mentored for as long as it takes to get to test standard and are then assessed by a Police instructor on an observed ride and passed or failed (The pass can equal large savings on insurance etc in the uk so it is all taken seriously).

HOpe that helps to clarify. Its the same sort of thing as attempted by KB but in a much more mature structure... I am sure though, that it started with someone or people thinking we can do something as a community to increase everyones skills, enjoyment and likelyhood of staying alive.

pritch

4th November 2008, 09:27

It's not completely suprising that this thread has every one so exercised...

There would be zero chance of getting agreement among all KBers as to what constitutes a "good rider". Similarly there seems to be the proverbial snowball's chance in Hell of much agreement as to exactly what a "mentor" is.

Accordingly this topic is ripe for disagreements and the swapping of insults.
So carry on guys... :slap:

For the record, I'm available to help anyone who wants it and who is prepared to listen. I'm not interested in applications, or referees, or coloured letters after my name, but I do wish the scheme every success.

discotex

4th November 2008, 11:47

More than happy to offer opinion

Thanks :)

Planning on running group 3 at the next MotoTT day to get back into the swing. Would be great if you could show me some lines for a few laps and/or follow me and comment on what I'm doing good or bad.

Owl

4th November 2008, 17:07

Well I wish this scheme every success! It may not be perfect, but what the hell is in this day and age. There has been some fair concerns raised in this thread, but I'd like to think the scheme will improve in time.

Isn't it possible that guidence or advice given up till now may have already saved a life or avoided a serious injury? We will never know, but that in itself makes this scheme worthwhile. I refuse to believe it has done more harm than good, but I guess the future will be the judge.

Best of luck Mentors!:yes:

sugilite

6th November 2008, 00:31

Too right. I know anthony is a great bloke and races when he can. I've also witness some shady pasing manuvours by Sugi on the odd group ride :rolleyes:, yeah I'm not perfect either. Some nominations seem to be self gratifying same goes for mod selection. Basically it appears to be who you know, not how good they are to carry out the task :Pokey: Anthony is a good nomination for mentor btw.

Were there trees overhanging the road? :innocent:

I just got onto KB for the 1st time in a while, I've been busy of late in the 3D world, go figure! Since I got mentioned a few times in this thread, I thought I'd share my thoughts on the subject as it pertains to me personally :blink:

I was asked to be a mentor and I had a good think about that. Once the system was explained to me, I felt ok with it. My perception of the mentor system is it is basically an opportunity to share experience with a fellow enthusiest on an informal basis. It is up to each individual if they want to incorporate any of that information into their own riding. Seems straight forward to me. :yes:

I won't be out to create sugi clones. yeah, sure I race/raced, but I certainly won't be 'teaching' people how to ride fast, or how to perform perceived shady passing maneuvers!

Should my mentorship be accepted, some of the things I'm wanting to share in no particular order are...
Smooth riding, gear changes, braking, cornering lines etc.
Creating time and space to react to unexpected hazards.
Smooth pillioning.
Lines (no centre line crossing on my mentoring sessions)
Reading road condition, factoring in a multitude of different parameters.
Very basic bike setup, as in correct positioning of hand and foot controls etc (getting your hand to that perfectly placed brake lever could be the difference in making it home rubber side down or not!)
A bit of basic bike maintenance, chain tension, lubing, tyre pressures and such.
Using the whole body in conjunction with throttle position to steer the bike effortlessly through corners.
In short, I take a fairly holistic approach in sharing the steps to attain that sublime zen state where rider and bike operate as one.

There won't be a certificate provided at the end of a session for your wall, but you may just get a smile on your dial from effortlessly gliding through a series of corners....knowing YOU got them just right! :wari:

DingoZ

6th November 2008, 01:04

jrandom

6th November 2008, 06:35

I was asked to be a mentor...

Good lord, an eminently sensible nomination for once! I hereby endorse that shit.

As I stated earlier, if we're going to insist on having an official mentor system, I'm all about having mentors who can actually ride bikes.

(Deano qualifies under this provision too, of course. And DMNTD, if he beats me at PMCC round 1 on the 30th. And The Stranger, although I'm going to have to be a cunt to him for at least a fortnight now to make up for admitting that. I have a sneaking suspicion that Katman can ride bikes, too.)

Anyway, go Sugi!

:niceone:

MSTRS

6th November 2008, 08:05

Should my mentorship be accepted, some of the things I'm wanting to share in no particular order are...
Smooth riding, gear changes, braking, cornering lines etc.
Creating time and space to react to unexpected hazards.
Smooth pillioning.
Lines (no centre line crossing on my mentoring sessions)
Reading road condition, factoring in a multitude of different parameters.
Very basic bike setup, as in correct positioning of hand and foot controls etc (getting your hand to that perfectly placed brake lever could be the difference in making it home rubber side down or not!)
A bit of basic bike maintenance, chain tension, lubing, tyre pressures and such.
Using the whole body in conjunction with throttle position to steer the bike effortlessly through corners.
In short, I take a fairly holistic approach in sharing the steps to attain that sublime zen state where rider and bike operate as one.

And that is what was envisioned when setting up the mentor system. It has nothing to do with being a hero or riding 'fast'.
Perhaps you've been riding 6 months, or 6 years, but ask yourself honestly..."Have I got these basic fine-tuning points down pat?". Many of us haven't. I've been riding on and off for 35 years, and it's only in the last year or so that I've really come to understand and use what Sugi said. And that was after I spent a little time with him on his 'private' road. In addition to listening to Yungatart telling of a mentor session with Jim2.
Putting together the info 'learned', and practising, made a huge difference to my riding. I am a much faster and safer rider than I was. Faster because I'm smoother, safer because of road positioning/lines. That is not to say I was an accident waiting to happen before though, just that I was able to lift my game without pushing harder. And it costs me less too - my brake pads and tyres last much longer than they did. And my pillions love me too!:sunny:
Get the info from any source you can, as long as it's the right info. Chances are a good bet will be one of the KB mentors.

chanceyy

6th November 2008, 09:33

There won't be a certificate provided at the end of a session for your wall, but you may just get a smile on your dial from effortlessly gliding through a series of corners....knowing YOU got them just right! :wari:

can relate to that statement ..which is why I love getting lessons from sugi .. I have actually slowed down to work on the smoothness & when it comes together yeah the smile/europhia factor is 10+

well posted comments Sugi .. thanks :)

SixPackBack

8th November 2008, 07:22

Check out this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=85594) . Yes that's right folk's the combative arse wipe who unnecessarily denigrates the thread in to a slanging match is in fact a mentor.

The protagonist exhibits excessively poor social skills and the inability to accurately convey message or emotion.

Inclusion of such individuals mark KB as a laughing stock.

*Head mentors*........clean your act up FFS:bash:

cowboyz

8th November 2008, 08:27

Inclusion of such individuals mark KB as a laughing stock.

yep yep and yep.

But what made you think KB wasnt already a laughing stock?

CookMySock

8th November 2008, 08:30

yep yep and yep.

But what made you think KB wasnt already a laughing stock?Yep. I've stopped telling people about KB.

Steve

Katman

8th November 2008, 08:31

*Head mentors*........clean your act up FFS:bash:

I detect a sense of bitterness.

Fatjim

8th November 2008, 08:38

Her_C4

8th November 2008, 08:39

Good god boys - back awaaaaay from the sandpit.:eek::spanking:

ROTFL :bleh:

Fatjim

8th November 2008, 08:40

Were there trees overhanging the road? :innocent:

I just got onto KB for the 1st time in a while, I've been busy of late in the 3D world, go figure! Since I got mentioned a few times in this thread, I thought I'd share my thoughts on the subject as it pertains to me personally :blink:

I was asked to be a mentor and I had a good think about that. Once the system was explained to me, I felt ok with it. My perception of the mentor system is it is basically an opportunity to share experience with a fellow enthusiest on an informal basis. It is up to each individual if they want to incorporate any of that information into their own riding. Seems straight forward to me. :yes:

I won't be out to create sugi clones. yeah, sure I race/raced, but I certainly won't be 'teaching' people how to ride fast, or how to perform perceived shady passing maneuvers!

Should my mentorship be accepted, some of the things I'm wanting to share in no particular order are...
Smooth riding, gear changes, braking, cornering lines etc.
Creating time and space to react to unexpected hazards.
Smooth pillioning.
Lines (no centre line crossing on my mentoring sessions)
Reading road condition, factoring in a multitude of different parameters.
Very basic bike setup, as in correct positioning of hand and foot controls etc (getting your hand to that perfectly placed brake lever could be the difference in making it home rubber side down or not!)
A bit of basic bike maintenance, chain tension, lubing, tyre pressures and such.
Using the whole body in conjunction with throttle position to steer the bike effortlessly through corners.
In short, I take a fairly holistic approach in sharing the steps to attain that sublime zen state where rider and bike operate as one.

There won't be a certificate provided at the end of a session for your wall, but you may just get a smile on your dial from effortlessly gliding through a series of corners....knowing YOU got them just right! :wari:\

I'm in, when can I come up?

cowboyz

8th November 2008, 08:54

Good god boys - back awaaaaay from the sandpit.:eek::spanking:

ROTFL :bleh:

Yes yes. Of course. Stop being so childish. This is KB. If you dont pretend everything is peachy then you are acting like a 2 yr old. For gods sake dont raise any issues, it sparks the waaaambulance brigade. Just smile nicely and pretend all is good in the real world. This is, afterall, not a club - its just a internet site and has no bearing on the real world.

James Deuce

8th November 2008, 08:59

Yes yes. Of course. Stop being so childish. This is KB. If you dont pretend everything is peachy then you are acting like a 2 yr old. For gods sake dont raise any issues, it sparks the waaaambulance brigade. Just smile nicely and pretend all is good in the real world. This is, afterall, not a club - its just a internet site and has no bearing on the real world.
Geez, you could get a job with the Labour party with skills like that. Maybe even the Greens.

MSTRS

8th November 2008, 09:19

Geez, you could get a job with the Labour party with skills like that. Maybe even the Greens.

Closer than you may think....:laugh:

Fatjim

8th November 2008, 09:32

Yep. I've stopped telling people about KB.

Steve

Good, we don't want everybody thinking this place is somewhere knobs hang out.

cowboyz

8th November 2008, 10:47

Closer than you may think....:laugh:

**Smiles happily nodding as the world goes by**

Its all green man.................

Maha

8th November 2008, 10:48

**Smiles happily nodding as the world goes by**

Its all green man.................

Is that you Canniboyz???

Owl

8th November 2008, 11:17

**Smiles happily nodding as the world goes by**

Just watch that your head don't fall off!:rofl:

jrandom

8th November 2008, 12:12

Its all green man.................

But green's the color of spring
And green can be cool and friendly-like
And green can be big like an ocean, or important like a mountain,
Or tall like a tree.

When green is all there is to be
It could make you wonder why, but why wonder why
Wonder, I am green and it'll do fine, it's beautiful
And I think it's what I want to be.

Bonez

8th November 2008, 12:31

I'd travel for a few hours to be able to partake in some of that extensive list.

Nice one...:)Just be carefull you don't get taught anything though ok ;).

ynot slow

8th November 2008, 20:14

Bonez

8th November 2008, 20:19

Well for mentoring I found a damn good one last night,was good sitting behind you Bones,similar bike age,handling etc,and easy to see the lines(in the wet) lol,was good till the mits and body got a bit chilly.Also I believe we never stop learning,and as a person who has tried to help train apprentices,some want to learn others want to be the best asap,big difference there.Fuck I can't ride for shit mate. Thanks for the plug though. It was good seeing the missus and you yesterday evening Tony. As you say we never stop learning no matter how long we've been riding.