Older Duc pondering.

[98tls]

Bit quiet at work today and myself and a fellow motorcyclist were sitting round (yea a lazy moment) talking bikes and in particular V-twins as we both ride them,as usual the conversation went back to old bevel drive Ducatis of which we are both fans of and in conversation i got to thinking why after they went water cooled did they persist with lying the motor that way which only made the engine unnecessarily long,take the 916 for example,yea it won 3/4 world championships but my pointless musing had me wondering if it could have been better again.As i say pointless but apart from riding them/mucking around with them i also seem to spend plenty of time thinking about them:doh:Anyone any got any thoughts?

[popelli]

why change a winning formula with their trade mark engine?

[dipshit]

why after they went water cooled did they persist with lying the motor that way which only made the engine unnecessarily long,


Probably to keep the weight lower and further forward I would be guessing...???

They actually design bikes to try to stop them from wheeling believe it or not... :msn-wink:

[98tls]

why change a winning formula with their trade mark engine? Yea yea obvious thing to say,ive said the same to myself.Am not having a crack at Ducati just a wee ponder as i said,for all the 916s success i can remember reading many articles concerning the problems they had getting it to handle on a racetrack,engine was to long/weight to far back,sure they overcame this but after they went watercooled they could have sat the same motor at a different angle therefore making it a whole different ball game ie weight etc

[98tls]

Probably to keep the weight lower and further forward I would be guessing...???

They actually design bikes to try to stop them from wheeling believe it or not... :msn-wink: Suzuki got it wrong by sitting the V-twin up then:wacko:wheelies are so annoying:oi-grr:

[dipshit]

for all the 916s success i can remember reading many articles concerning the problems they had getting it to handle on a racetrack,engine was to long/weight to far back,


hmmm... so an L-twin moves the weight further back.

[AllanB]

I think its for the same reason that Harley run a 45 degree twin after 105 years. Tradition. including sound.

Would a 75 degree Ducati sound right...........

The 90 degree v-twin does give good engine balance, but on a pure sports bike I agree its length is a hindrance.

[98tls]

hmmm... so an L-twin moves the weight further back. On a 916 in race trim there biggest problem handling wise was the weight being to far back which was well written about at the time,once again i will repeat i am not having a crack just wondering why after no longer having a reason to have it lying down and having said issues did they chose not to sit it up.

[98tls]

I think its for the same reason that Harley run a 45 degree twin after 105 years. Tradition. including sound.

Would a 75 degree Ducati sound right...........

The 90 degree v-twin does give good engine balance, but on a pure sports bike I agree its length is a hindrance. Yea possibly Allan,ive no idea really as i say it just became a bit of a topic at work today,ive always found Ducatis history rather interesting and at times pretty entertaining which only serves to add to there flavour for me anyway.Along the way they have done some wonderful things but at times some woefully inept as well including some wonderful oppertunities missed at times to boot but once again just adds to the flavour.

[TLDV8]

Mike, i think the included angle was rotated rearward on the 916 (compared to a beveldrive) as they did on the TL1000 to get the crankshaft closer to the front axle but the rear cylinder can only rotate so far before the transmission/engine case gets in the way.
The 916 also has a very short swingarm (25mm shorter than a TL at its most extended setting) to keep the wheelbase low (1420mm?)
You only need to see a inline four beside any L Twin to see the problem loading the front.
The magnesium SSSA was around 25mm longer,i guess the eccentrics in the steering head would have almost had the front tyre kissing the front head under braking in WSB.
I think even on a old beveldrive,it is the front that lets go,nothing like your body dropping vertically mid corner as the front tucks. :laugh:
The alternate for Ducati from a L layout is lost sales perhaps,even Desmodromics are not all that in a road bike these days but they still sell with even with more complex valve adjustment (head off).
Even with all that,they (916/998) still went around corners like nothing else,more complete/balanced overall package perhaps.

[98tls]

Mike, i think the included angle was rotated rearward on the 916 (compared to a beveldrive) as they did on the TL1000 to get the crankshaft closer to the front axle but the rear cylinder can only rotate so far before the transmission/engine case gets in the way.
The 916 also has a very short swingarm (25mm shorter than a TL at its most extended setting) to keep the wheelbase low (1420mm?)
You only need to see a inline four beside any L Twin to see the problem loading the front.
The magnesium SSSA was around 25mm longer,i guess the eccentrics in the steering head would have almost had the front tyre kissing the front head under braking in WSB.
I think even on a old beveldrive,it is the front that lets go,nothing like your body dropping vertically mid corner as the front tucks. :laugh:
The alternate for Ducati from a L layout is lost sales perhaps,even Desmodromics are not all that in a road bike these days but they still sell with even with more complex valve adjustment (head off). Gidday Les,just the man to explain my pondering.Funny what the old brain starts thinking about really.:confused:I wonder what would have come of them sitting it up and going from there a decade give or take before Suzuki did.

[Voltaire]

Imagine if Mike Hailwood had said " Sorry guys...bit busy at the moment, but thanks"
They probably would have gone bust in the mid 80's and be like Norton and Vincent......

[Forest]

Can't answer your question, but I know they kept on using the L-layout right through the 999 and the 1098.

Here's a photo of a 1098 without fairings.

[98tls]

Imagine if Mike Hailwood had said " Sorry guys...bit busy at the moment, but thanks"
They probably would have gone bust in the mid 80's and be like Norton and Vincent......

:doh:Imagine how many bikes they could have sold if they had built a true F1 600TT replica in the early 80s when it won the first of 4 titles instead of waiting forever then flogging off a not even remotely close to original basterd thing.:blank:Still for awhile they were consistant with fuck ups like the 89 900SS and my personal favourite (from experiance) the 89 750 sport.Mr Taglioni would have been glad to have left.

[Motu]

45deg is the best angle for a V twin - better utilization of space and more torque.

[Forest]

45deg is the best angle for a V twin - better utilization of space and more torque.

90 degree twins have perfect primary balance - which means smoother power with a higher rev ceiling.

[Voltaire]

:doh:Imagine how many bikes they could have sold if they had built a true F1 600TT replica in the early 80s when it won the first of 4 titles instead of waiting forever then flogging off a not even remotely close to original basterd thing.

I lived in sydney in the mis 80's and there were two ducati shops. I used to go on lots of bike rallys on my 900SD. Not much interest there at the time in bikes of 600cc, Pantahs were around but not really concidered to seriously by the SS types....in fact they used to poke fun at me for having a Darmah...or Drama as they refered to it. The only Ducati worth owning seemed to be a 900 ss or earlier.Not my opinion, just what I observed.
( Must have affected me as I don't even know what a F1 600TT is, and I have two Ducatis.....)

[pritch]

45deg is the best angle for a V twin - better utilization of space and more torque.

Then there'd be a shortage of space for the fuel injection and all the other electrickery bits and pieces that have to squeeze in there. Maybe Aprilia got it about right.

What angle to KTM use?

[Taz]

The ducati was ultimately more successful than suzuki's TLR and Honda's VTR. So they must have been doing something right.

[Crisis management]

What angle to KTM use?

75 degrees.....bloody crowded between the cylinders, I'm still looking for the 6mm allen key I dropped into the 990 2 weeks ago! The 75 degree twins also vibrate more than the 90 degree, I have to admit I loved the smooth power of the ducati.
Otherwise, it's all about tradition as others have said, the original design was based on good engineering principles, primary balance and the control of valve float at high revs (desmodromics) with the need to control the temperature of the rear cylinder, don't forget that a long wheelbase wasn't frowned on in the 70's, steering head angles were nearer 27 degress than 22 degrees then so there was plenty of space for a long motor.
Their persistance with these basic features is all about tradition, look at the effort they go to change valve angles and heads on the front cylinder in the 916/996 series motors in an effort to maintain clearance from the front wheel.

I would'nt buy an in line four Ducati.

[AllanB]

The ducati was ultimately more successful than suzuki's TLR and Honda's VTR. So they must have been doing something right.

Ah now to compare like this you would need to single out one similar sized Ducati and compare its sales with Suzukis & Hondas V-twins over the same period. I say this as it's unreasonable to compare all Ducatis range with a single Suzuki & Honda model out of a large range.
Plus the TL morphed into the SV.


I was thinking about this a bit after reading the post yesterday.

I kept comparing the Ducati engine layout with Porsche engine layout - that rear engined car really was daft for a sports model - at one stage they were even loading up the front end with a hell of a lot of weight (lead?) in a attempt to keep the front down.

Porsche stayed with the rear engine and eventually sorted out the handling to the point where it is widely regarding as one of the nicest handling sports cars about.

Ducati is the same. However I suspect the primary balance plays a big part too.

And yes I do remember them tilting the V angle back recently to give more clearance in the front end.

The KTM RC8 is 90 degree.
Apriia run 90 in their new 750 engine
Hinda has 52 degrees in the 700 Translapper

[Kickaha]

I used to go on lots of bike rallys on my 900SD. Not much interest there at the time in bikes of 600cc, Pantahs were around but not really concidered to seriously by the SS types....in fact they used to poke fun at me for having a Darmah...or Drama as they refered to it. The only Ducati worth owning seemed to be a 900 ss or earlier.

I had the use of a 600 Pantah at the same time as I owned a 900 Darmah, the Pantah on a windy road would run away from the Darmahs, I didn't ever get to run it against a 900SS but I think the result would be similar

Going from the Darmah to the Pantah was like getting out of a truck and into a sports car

[AllanB]

I wouldn't buy an in line four Ducati.

Yeah but just imagine what it would go like!!!!!!!!!


They will end up with V-4's.

[johan]

Yeah but just imagine what it would go like!!!!!!!!!


They will end up with V-4's.

I wish a derivative of the Desmosedici v-4 makes it down to their sports bike range.

[Crisis management]

The KTM RC8 is 90 degree.


Bloody hell Allan, get onto KTM fast, they still think it's a 75 degree twin!!!

[AllanB]

Bloody hell Allan, get onto KTM fast, they still think it's a 75 degree twin!!!

He he he - I grabbed that straight from a new magazine - I guess there will be a few 'letters to thje editor' this month!

[98tls]

The ducati was ultimately more successful than suzuki's TLR and Honda's VTR. So they must have been doing something right. Yea yea well aware of that but what i was pondering was why when they no longer needed to have there engine at such an angle didnt they sit it up to reduce length and attend to the rear weight bias as it was seen,theres no wrong/right answer i guess am just interested to see what people thought.

[98tls]

I had the use of a 600 Pantah at the same time as I owned a 900 Darmah, the Pantah on a windy road would run away from the Darmahs, I didn't ever get to run it against a 900SS but I think the result would be similar

Going from the Darmah to the Pantah was like getting out of a truck and into a sports car The Pantah could have been hugely succesful if Cagiva hadnt missed the boat and insisted on making 10,000 Alazzurras that ended up sitting in warehouses for years.Sweet bike and used to love reading of Ian Gowanlochs exploits with them.

[Forest]

Yeah but just imagine what it would go like!!!!!!!!!


They will end up with V-4's.

The history of Italian inline-four manufacturers is very spotty.

Just look Bimota and MV Agusta - both companies failed and are now on life-support.

[AllanB]

As I hooned a long late this afternoon on my IL4, I remembered a magazine article I have a home somewhere (relatively recent) with a short column quoting Ducatis engine designer saying they are working on the next generation engine as the present design has pretty much reached its limit (presumably in a road going form keeping it warrantable).

[98tls]

As I hooned a long late this afternoon on my IL4, I remembered a magazine article I have a home somewhere (relatively recent) with a short column quoting Ducatis engine designer saying they are working on the next generation engine as the present design has pretty much reached its limit (presumably in a road going form keeping it warrantable). A bit off topic re this post but reminded me of this,way back when Taglioni was in charge if you had a look at a 750GT and the holes in the crankcase round the ignition system then when years later the 860 came out the holes where already there for the electronic ignition.One of the GT prototypes even had fuel injection driven off the points housing,they didnt need the points shaft because the electronic ignition on the other side,so in 1970 they had a bike with electronic ignition and fuel injection,Amazing.

[Forest]

A bit off topic re this post but reminded me of this,way back when Taglioni was in charge if you had a look at a 750GT and the holes in the crankcase round the ignition system then when years later the 860 came out the holes where already there for the electronic ignition.One of the GT prototypes even had fuel injection driven off the points housing,they didnt need the points shaft because the electronic ignition on the other side,so in 1970 they had a bike with electronic ignition and fuel injection,Amazing.

There's a great quote from an American writer called William Gibson. He said:

"The future is already here. It is just unevenly distributed"

[Taz]

Ah now to compare like this you would need to single out one similar sized.......


I was actually referring to their race results not their sales results.....

[98tls]

I was actually referring to their race results not their sales results..... True but lets face it there recent history race results have as much to do with the Superbike rule makers as anything else and said partys insistance on complying with Ducatis whinging.

[vifferman]

...take the 916 for example,yea it won 3/4 world championships
If the WSB promoters / rulemakers hadn't decided to favour Ducati with a bit of bending of the rules (to the Honda RC45's disadvantage), things may have been quite different. Thankfully, they did. The resultant successes gave them a much needed sales boost, and allowed them to further develop their bikes.

90-degree Vs rawk! The 45s, 60s, 72s, etc just don't sound right.

As for the long wheelbases thing, Honda got around this by having pannier radiators and swingarms pivoting in the engine cases. Pity the bikes aren't as sexy or succesful as the Dukes.

[Kickaha]

and swingarms pivoting in the engine cases. Pity the bikes aren't as sexy or succesful as the Dukes.

Ducati have used the swingarm pivoting in the cases since the Pantahs were released in the early eighties