All those in favour of standard Superbikes?

[slowpoke]

I saw this from Kings of Wanneroo meeting in Western Australia. This is taken straight off WWW.MCNEWS.COM and really gives an idea of skill over $$$ due to the restrictions on machine development.

It's difficult unless you know the guys involved but there are some stellar efforts here. Allerton as current ASC champ is almost expected to top the qualifying but it's vindication against some internationals that it's not just a Factory ride that got him to the title. Staring is a young guy that hasn't quite shown his potential thanks to doing a Stoner and being super-fast or in the dirt, but if he's injury free he's as good as anyone in Oz.

I know Ben Stronach and as a multi time and current state champ he's fuckin' fast around Wanneroo (local lap record holder) so I thought it was almost unbelivable that he'd qualify down in 14th, but most of those in front have International or National experience whilst he, for one reason or another, has chosen to stay in WA.

There's a lesson there for you young aspiring types, his brother Cam was considered a less developed rider last year but after an unpaid season on a World Superstock bike he now looks to be the quicker rider. Same goes for Cam Keevers and Ben Henry (his Kiwi dad founded world renowned Ducati tuners Vee Two of Alchemy/Squalo/Super Squalo fame) who have done National series and jumped ahead.

There are some big names there, some not really noted for their short circuit expertise, but it's interesting to see the cream rise to the top on fairly unmodified and similar machines.

I'm not sure who was on standard suspension but it's interesting reading if you follow the Aussie/UK scene. Shame no Kiwi based riders ventured over.

-- Kings of Wanneroo 2008 - Combined Final Qualifying / Grid

Production Superbikes - Standard engines - Only aftermarket shock and fork internals allowed, some riders still on standard shock, Pirelli tyres

1. Glenn Allerton (Honda) 56.75 (QP1)
2. Bryan Staring (Yamaha) 56.82 (QP1)
3. Karl Harris (Yamaha) 57.05 (QP1)
4. John Laverty (Honda) 57.33 (QP1)
5. Michael Laverty (Suzuki) 57.60 (QP1)
6. Ian Lowry (Suzuki) 57.65 (QP1)
7. Ben Henry (Yamaha) 58.01 (QP1)
8. Cam Donald (Suzuki) 58.10 (QP1)
9. Cam Stronach (Yamaha) 58.17 (QP2)
10. Cam Keevers (Yamaha) 58.28 (QP1)
11. Chris Galbraith (Suzuki) 58.35 (QP2)
12. Damon Buckmaster (Kawasaki) 58.42 (QP2)
13. Adrian Coates (Yamaha) 58.44 (QP1)
14. Ben Stronach (Suzuki) 58.46 (QP1)
15. Mark Schnierer (Suzuki) 58.76 (QP1)
16. Ryan Farquhar (Kawasaki) 59.36 (QP2)
17. Bruce Anstey (Suzuki) 59.57 (QP2)
18. Kevin Boulton (Honda) 59.68 (QP1)
19. Peter Grasser (Honda) 60.08 (QP1)
20. Mike Swann (KTM) 60.61 (QP1)
21. Jason Walker (Honda) 60.99 (QP2)
22. Shane Martin (Honda) 61.28 (QP1)
23. Paul Freear (Yamaha) 61.28 (QP1)
24. Jack Tabain (Yamaha) 61.83 (QP2)
25. Wally Mulik (Yamaha) 61.91 (QP2)
25. Matthew Fathers (Ducati) 62.02 (QP2)
26. Rob Wasley (Honda) 62.68 (QP1)
27. Matthew Gould (Kawasaki) 63.79 (QP1)

[vtec]

Brilliant, the bikes are good enough for racing standard. Why jack up the cost of grass roots racing... all racing in NZ is grass roots. So keep as much of it standard as you can. If people want an open class, then there should be an open class aswell, but you would find a lot less entries I would think.

Bruce Anstey (NZ) was in it. Well down. He's either on standard suspension, or maybe it's because he's just a street race specialist.

[Shaun]

Brilliant, the bikes are good enough for racing standard. Why jack up the cost of grass roots racing... all racing in NZ is grass roots. So keep as much of it standard as you can. If people want an open class, then there should be an open class aswell, but you would find a lot less entries I would think.

Bruce Anstey (NZ) was in it. Well down. He's either on standard suspension, or maybe it's because he's just a street race specialist.



Bruce Anstey is capable of kicking 96% of our Quality Closed track riders arses on any thing dude.

He was on very badly RE- Instated shit, that was NOT set up propally, BUT please note he did do very well in the WET on Std shite

[slowpoke]

Yeah, over the years I've wondered how much is down to bike and $$$ package rather than rider ability and on a track I know with riders I know (even a few of the locals) it's answered a few questions. It would be great to know exactly who ran what as far as suspension goes.

Even with minimal time on track it's amazing how much faster some of the pro's are on basic machines. They get the sponsorship and factory rides because they are fuggin' good, not the other way around.

[codgyoleracer]

Personnaly I think there is some middle ground somehwere "in little ole NZ" for machine specification limitations , tyre controls etc. (some of this has already been done since the 2007/8 sereis)
Superbike racing is going to be friggen expensive regardless of the rules(thats motorsport for ya !) -

In my opinion , people that argue that the bikes in stock form cant be raced safely are stretching the truth, - & also they are not doing the sport any favours by making those statements considering the "PC safetycrats will pick up on this stuff & use to push their own barrow". Along with that the governing body must strongly consider safety always of course.

Add to this issue that the industry & also the industries suppliers need to be considered. Maintaining there involvement in the sport is also very important, so its a hard nut to crack without pissing someone off along the way...........

I suppose we need to ask the question "if the rules of specification were changed - would this actually result in more competitors competing at national level" ? (& by that I mean all rounds of nationals)

My suspicion is that it will make little difference - due to the hard reality that racing this class of machine at all national level rounds , requires a skill set & level of commmitment that many club racers have no intention of achieving.

Its a toughy - but certainly worthwhile debating.

GlenW

[R6_kid]

Would this not be a good option for a Formula 2 level class in NZ? I know a lot of riders that are doing well in the F3 class considering their level of experience and lack of money to set up a championship winning capable bike.

Chrislost, Toast, KraZ, vtec, roadrash are but a few names that come to mind.

[Tony.OK]

Could we not have a combined SBK class? Similar to F3 and ProTwins, Full NZ SBK's combined with ProStock.....ie : No internal engine mods, same sups rules as SBK, allow exh and PC3 but no Race computers/ignition.
Run with SBK class but have separate points/title.

[steveyb]

I have not actually looked at the specific rules, but I have thought for a long time that we need to have at least another class besides 125GP where NZers can take their own (or their teams) bikes overseas and race with NO mods required to meet rules.
By this I mean Superstock 1000 and Superstock 600.

Now as I said, I haven't investigated the rules, but if they are as the names somewhat naively suggest, sort of stock, then would that make sense?

Our 600 class is basically stock and seems to work really really well for us.
Should we not just do the same for the big bikes?

We can still call the class Superbike, there is no need to change that. AND we should actually call the 600 class Supersport. 600 Sports Production is old hat and too cumbersome. Marketing is all part of the game.

Cheers

Steve

By the way, when I visited the Phase 3 Yamaha race team in the UK in 2006 I found out that their engine preparation consists of:
Uncrate engine(s) from Yamaha
Disassemble engine.
Inspect, clean casting dags and such like, replace anything that is clearly dodgy with the standard part.
Reassemble.
Put in bike or in crate ready for use.

Simple ay?

[brads]

Paul S has listed on NZSBK website "possible" changes to our 600 and SBK rules for 2010.
My opinion is they look good.

[Mishy]

Paul S has listed on NZSBK website "possible" changes to our 600 and SBK rules for 2010.
My opinion is they look good.

Yeah, not a lot of change (good) but I notice that 600SP will be required to use stock OEM Ignitions. I can't say I'm in favour of that, especially if you are allowed to use a Power Commander or Bazaaz unit to adjust fueling anyway. It just means you can't tune the spark advance properly any more . . . . . . . . . Also, from what I can make out, some of the new models don't cope that well with Aftermarket fueling ad ons, and can be problematic to tune on a dyno. Why specify stock ECU, and then allow racers to spend plenty on other stuff anyway, which may well take longer to tune on the dyno and be more expensive because of that ? the kit ECU's are normally real close, and lots of guys just bolt them in and go racing . . . . . . .

[vtec]

Would this not be a good option for a Formula 2 level class in NZ? I know a lot of riders that are doing well in the F3 class considering their level of experience and lack of money to set up a championship winning capable bike.

Chrislost, Toast, KraZ, vtec, roadrash are but a few names that come to mind.

Thanks for the big ups.
Still I don't like my chances at nationals on a standard bike. To win, you need serious moolah and professional help or vast stores of knowledge behind you.

Pro twins are a good class, I just don't like Vtwins or their power delivery. I much prefer to make it scream not rumble.

And yes, they could run F2 like that, I don't think it's too far off as it is. I think it might even encourage more support from the manufacturers. But I hate the thought of churning through several tyres per meeting, seems so wasteful.

What we really need is the manufacturers to be pumping out decent 400 like the good old days, so that we could have a stock 400 racing series. Would be comparable to the old 250 2 stroke streetbike races, only cheaper. That would whip some ass.

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks for the big ups.
Still I don't like my chances at nationals on a standard bike. To win, you need serious moolah and professional help or vast stores of knowledge behind you.

Pro twins are a good class, I just don't like Vtwins or their power delivery. I much prefer to make it scream not rumble.

And yes, they could run F2 like that, I don't think it's too far off as it is. I think it might even encourage more support from the manufacturers. But I hate the thought of churning through several tyres per meeting, seems so wasteful.

What we really need is the manufacturers to be pumping out decent 400 like the good old days, so that we could have a stock 400 racing series. Would be comparable to the old 250 2 stroke streetbike races, only cheaper. That would whip some ass.

Suspension set up schools are in the pipeline to help on that front................

[slowpoke]

I suppose we need to ask the question "if the rules of specification were changed - would this actually result in more competitors competing at national level" ? (& by that I mean all rounds of nationals)

My suspicion is that it will make little difference - due to the hard reality that racing this class of machine at all national level rounds , requires a skill set & level of commmitment that many club racers have no intention of achieving.



GlenW

Bullseye!

If I was Brian Bernard, with a fist full of Yamaha dollars to spend I'd probably be looking overseas for riders too. Looking at the Superbike ranks in NZ, bearing in mind that success is required to ensure I get another fistful next year, the locals who have done well on previous Nationals campaigns are pretty thin on the ground.

People knock him for getting in O/S riders but what alternative does he have? If I was spending 10's of $1000, and risking my livelihood I'd want to see some runs on the board too.

[wharfy]

Personnaly I think there is some middle ground somehwere "in little ole NZ" for machine specification limitations , tyre controls etc. (some of this has already been done since the 2007/8 sereis)

Yes, somewhere for people on the way up to get noticed, and somewhere for those of us who aren't going anywhere to play.


Superbike racing is going to be friggen expensive regardless of the rules(thats motorsport for ya !) -

Yes. Even on a BOG STANDARD open class machine everything wears out quicker and is more expensive to replace, A direct result of having to cope with the horsepower I guess.


In my opinion , people that argue that the bikes in stock form cant be raced safely are stretching the truth, - & also they are not doing the sport any favours by making those statements considering the "PC safetycrats will pick up on this stuff & use to push their own barrow". Along with that the governing body must strongly consider safety always of course.

I suppose that better suspension and better tyres just means the crashes happen at higher speeds than on a stock bike ? The top riders are always right on the limit anyway so crashes are inevitable for them.


Add to this issue that the industry & also the industries suppliers need to be considered. Maintaining there involvement in the sport is also very important, so its a hard nut to crack without pissing someone off along the way...........

I suppose we need to ask the question "if the rules of specification were changed - would this actually result in more competitors competing at national level" ? (& by that I mean all rounds of nationals)

My suspicion is that it will make little difference - due to the hard reality that racing this class of machine at all national level rounds , requires a skill set & level of commmitment that many club racers have no intention of achieving.

Its a toughy - but certainly worthwhile debating.

GlenW


Indeed it is a worthwhile debate, and I suspect your suspicion is correct that there are a limited number of riders in NZ with the required skills and commitment to compete in this class. One reason why I believe we should have a cheaper, easier to get into middle weight class (600's /400 singles? ) so we can entice some of the dirt bike riders to cross over and get hooked on road racing. They seem to do well once they get on the seal.

So in answer to the question posed by this thread, yes I am in favour of a standard superbike class, as long as there remains a full on F1 class (they could run together like F3 and pro-twins ?)
However I think we would get more value from a standard middleweight class.

[CHOPPA]

I just rode at Puke today on my old mans stock gixer thou, i was doing pretty fast times considering the traffic, the bike felt safe as and there was no problem with tyre wear

[Biggles08]

I just rode at Puke today on my old mans stock gixer thou, i was doing pretty fast times considering the traffic, the bike felt safe as and there was no problem with tyre wear
Bahhhh!!! you were holding me up! :innocent: hehe

[Robert Taylor]

I just rode at Puke today on my old mans stock gixer thou, i was doing pretty fast times considering the traffic, the bike felt safe as and there was no problem with tyre wear

Try the same at Taupo and Manfield, Pukekohe doesnt challenge the tyres as much

[Robert Taylor]

Personnaly I think there is some middle ground somehwere "in little ole NZ" for machine specification limitations , tyre controls etc. (some of this has already been done since the 2007/8 sereis)
Superbike racing is going to be friggen expensive regardless of the rules(thats motorsport for ya !) -

In my opinion , people that argue that the bikes in stock form cant be raced safely are stretching the truth, - & also they are not doing the sport any favours by making those statements considering the "PC safetycrats will pick up on this stuff & use to push their own barrow". Along with that the governing body must strongly consider safety always of course.

Add to this issue that the industry & also the industries suppliers need to be considered. Maintaining there involvement in the sport is also very important, so its a hard nut to crack without pissing someone off along the way...........

I suppose we need to ask the question "if the rules of specification were changed - would this actually result in more competitors competing at national level" ? (& by that I mean all rounds of nationals)

My suspicion is that it will make little difference - due to the hard reality that racing this class of machine at all national level rounds , requires a skill set & level of commmitment that many club racers have no intention of achieving.

Its a toughy - but certainly worthwhile debating.

GlenW

So you race with top shelf Ohlins kit because?................

But quids up for your last paragraph, that nails it perfectly.

[Robert Taylor]

Bullseye!

If I was Brian Bernard, with a fist full of Yamaha dollars to spend I'd probably be looking overseas for riders too. Looking at the Superbike ranks in NZ, bearing in mind that success is required to ensure I get another fistful next year, the locals who have done well on previous Nationals campaigns are pretty thin on the ground.

People knock him for getting in O/S riders but what alternative does he have? If I was spending 10's of $1000, and risking my livelihood I'd want to see some runs on the board too.

Actually that fistful is rather smaller this season.

[Robert Taylor]

So you race with top shelf Ohlins kit because?................

But quids up for your last paragraph, that nails it perfectly.

Sorry, second to last paragraph

[CHOPPA]

Try the same at Taupo and Manfield, Pukekohe doesnt challenge the tyres as much

Na your right, i will be riding it at taupo this weekend and manfield the week after so it will be a good test.

BTW.... Im not challenging the fact that the suspension in the 10 (ohlins) isnt great and i am def faster with it....

[codgyoleracer]

Sorry, second to last paragraph

After re-reading my post - I quite like the whole thing actually ! :-)

I use the lovley Ohlins gear & Kerry Dukie's excellent service because it allows me go slightly faster & is of course more easily adjusted to variable conditions & tracks. If the rules didnt allow it - I wouldnt use it & personally I wouldnt be to concerned about that.
Nevertheless i race in a formula class - & this is the one class that should most likely allow these types of mod's.
But as this thread is about "production racing" - then there are many other options available.
IMO - they dropped the ball on this one with Pro-Twins, - a great opportunity to create a "stock class".

Glen Williams

[roogazza]

But as this thread is about "production racing" - then there are many other options available.
IMO - they dropped the ball on this one with Pro-Twins, - a great opportunity to create a "stock class".

Glen Williams So true , I agree there Glen . I was really hopeful Pro twins would be a Prod class. Then we had people who wanted a pipe , then a shock and "I can't ride those cos they're dangerous" Jeeze!
What is it two seasons now and it isn't working yet ? (6 or 7 bikes is all I have seen).
Production got NZ racing booming from the sixties through to when, late eighties ? If you are old enough to remember I bet you consider yourself lucky ? I'm sure it's the answer . Gaz.

[wharfy]

So true , I agree there Glen . I was really hopeful Pro twins would be a Prod class. Then we had people who wanted a pipe , then a shock and "I can't ride those cos they're dangerous" Jeeze!
What is it two sessions now and it isn't working yet ? (6 or 7 bikes is all I have seen).
Production got NZ racing booming from the sixties through to when, late eighties ? If you are old enough to remember I bet you consider yourself lucky ? I'm sure it's the answer . Gaz.

Maybe I should get one of those then, a top 10 finish assured :)

In all seriousness I was looking at pro-twins (the Hornet won't last forever) .

Does anyone have a theory on why they haven't taken off ?

[jrandom]

Does anyone have a theory on why they haven't taken off ?

(a) Building a winning bike isn't cheap, due to the rules allowing egg spensive kit.

(b) It's hard to be fast on an SV650 when you're a fat bastard.

[wharfy]

Hmmm.. I have just been reading the pro twin rules, you can change quite a bit eh ?

I THINK I can figure out what "undercutting of gears" is, but why would you ? It sounds VERY expensive, the same for "slotting cam wheels"

Is anyone running anything apart from Suzuki SV650's ?

[k14]

Does anyone have a theory on why they haven't taken off ?
Who says the class hasn't taken off? Last round at ruapuna there were 7 or 8 pro twins racing quite happily in F3. There is a similar amount that raced in the vic club series. Yes last nationals the class numbers did get as low as 5 or 6 but that was the first year of competition. Have a look at the numbers again this year, you may be pleasantly surprised.

Edit: I just looked at the results and there were actually 14 starters in pro twins in the first race at ruapuna the other weekend. That is a significant increase from last year when there was maybe 3 or 4 at the club meetings!

[roogazza]

That is good news K14, hope it happens for the North Is.
Yep Wharfy , you could probably pull a fifth at the mo !!!!!!!!! But then, thats a bit like being world famous in Taihape. Gaz.

[wharfy]

That is good news K14, hope it happens for the North Is.
Yep Wharfy , you could probably pull a fifth at the mo !!!!!!!!! But then, thats a bit like being world famous in Taihape. Gaz.
Ahhh... I have some fond memories of Taihape ( well two actually, mostly they are pretty shitty ) :(

[wharfy]

Who says the class hasn't taken off? Last round at ruapuna there were 7 or 8 pro twins racing quite happily in F3. There is a similar amount that raced in the vic club series. Yes last nationals the class numbers did get as low as 5 or 6 but that was the first year of competition. Have a look at the numbers again this year, you may be pleasantly surprised.

Edit: I just looked at the results and there were actually 14 starters in pro twins in the first race at ruapuna the other weekend. That is a significant increase from last year when there was maybe 3 or 4 at the club meetings!

17 pro twins entered the VMCC winter series, but only 7 did more than two meetings and it looks like 5 did all rounds of the last Nationals.

[roogazza]

17 pro twins entered the VMCC winter series, but only 7 did more than two meetings and it looks like 5 did all rounds of the last Nationals.

17 !! really ! well thats better than I thought.
Seriously Wharfy, its the way to go I reckon. Its just a shame I'm getting a bit past it now, I'd be in like Flinn if I was a bit more youthful. Gaz. :yes:

[wharfy]

17 !! really ! well thats better than I thought.
Seriously Wharfy, its the way to go I reckon. Its just a shame I'm getting a bit past it now, I'd be in like Flinn if I was a bit more youthful. Gaz. :yes:

More youthful - you mean, like me :)

[wharfy]

So who can tell me why I should "undercut" my gears and "slot" my cam wheels if I had a pro twin ?

[Maido]

You dont have to do either.
under cutting gears in basically a prevention to stop gears jumping out and to give the gear box a more positive shift, it gives no proformance benefits only a reliability benefit.
slotting cams is one rule i just don't see why they use. Sure you can adjust cam timing but in theory in production racing you should only be able to move the cam gears as far as the bolt hole will let you? (in the case of honda it is somewhere between .5 and 1 degree in either direction) Slotting cams is great if you have lots of spare hours on a free dyno to be able to find the best valve timing.

[Sketchy_Racer]

I never got the Cam slotting either.. sorta defeats a lot of the idea of this class. and also, im sure people will think.. while i've got it apart, whos going to know if i shave .5mm off the head to up the compression.. and the cheating begins..

[svr]

I never got the Cam slotting either.. sorta defeats a lot of the idea of this class. and also, im sure people will think.. while i've got it apart, whos going to know if i shave .5mm off the head to up the compression.. and the cheating begins..

It's easy to spot the `fast' bike in a bunch - but there's no bunch unfortunately...
The allowable mods add between 6 and 10k to the build, and make it maybe 1.5 sec `faster'. If you want to be on a bike that you feel is of no disadvantage you have to spend this.
So about double the cost of the bike itself. It will still handle / stop and go a lot worse than a bog standard 600, for about the same money.

[wharfy]

You dont have to do either.
under cutting gears in basically a prevention to stop gears jumping out and to give the gear box a more positive shift, it gives no proformance benefits only a reliability benefit.
slotting cams is one rule i just don't see why they use. Sure you can adjust cam timing but in theory in production racing you should only be able to move the cam gears as far as the bolt hole will let you? (in the case of honda it is somewhere between .5 and 1 degree in either direction) Slotting cams is great if you have lots of spare hours on a free dyno to be able to find the best valve timing.

Cheers, that is about what I though "undercutting" the gears was, but have to confess to having no clue as to what "slotting" the cam wheels was.
I sure does seem like a lot of effort for a small benefit.

I could do a lot of practice laps for that !!! AND I would have to DIET and EXERCISE to take advantage of it - bugger that:(

Does anyone race anything apart from the Suzuki SV650 ?

[Robert Taylor]

After re-reading my post - I quite like the whole thing actually ! :-)

I use the lovley Ohlins gear & Kerry Dukie's excellent service because it allows me go slightly faster & is of course more easily adjusted to variable conditions & tracks. If the rules didnt allow it - I wouldnt use it & personally I wouldnt be to concerned about that.
Nevertheless i race in a formula class - & this is the one class that should most likely allow these types of mod's.
But as this thread is about "production racing" - then there are many other options available.
IMO - they dropped the ball on this one with Pro-Twins, - a great opportunity to create a "stock class".

Glen Williams

90% of the content was indeed very good Glenn. But respectfully there was a little hypocrisy not too unlike the successive leaders of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics preaching the ''good socialist doctrine'' to the masses whilst not sharing in the misery. You had no compunction in getting us to build and develop the best possible Ohlins kit for that bike . Now that you have won a title with the substanial help of same you are only to happy to state that you would be happy to run oem. Mate, that frankly doesnt wash.
Maybe short and light people should be banned from compeition also because they have an unfair advantage.................

[Robert Taylor]

Cheers, that is about what I though "undercutting" the gears was, but have to confess to having no clue as to what "slotting" the cam wheels was.
I sure does seem like a lot of effort for a small benefit.

I could do a lot of practice laps for that !!! AND I would have to DIET and EXERCISE to take advantage of it - bugger that:(

Does anyone race anything apart from the Suzuki SV650 ?

No undercutting ( on a bike made and only intended as a commuter ) means that the gearbox will wear and jump out of gear a lot sooner. Spending money in such areas save money in the long term.

[Mishy]

So who can tell me why I should "undercut" my gears and "slot" my cam wheels if I had a pro twin ?

I'm totally in favour of undercutting the dogs in the grearbox, and it's just a way of making sure that you don't have a failure on the track- like a bike that jumps out of gear. Indexing is also important , so I think It's a good idea to do both any time you have the bike apart. We run a 600 SP bike, and won't even hit the track without undercutting and indexing the gearbox first. The undercutting makes the dogs in the gearbox drag the gears together, rather than let them slide apart, while indexng ensures that all the dogs contact at the same time. We had some "issues" with a Kawasaki gearbox, and I had to do this by hand with a dremel (at midnight on a race weekend - gutted !). The stock box was so bad that my effort was closer than some of the other gears in the box. It's not uncommon for the original gears to be a mile off, and having very little undercut makes them shift into 1st real clean and smooth (nice on a road bike), but it's not good if you want a race gearbox to last - you need undercut for that.
Cam sprockets? I'm not so sure I agree with the rule on that, but then I don't make the rules . . . . . .

[Robert Taylor]

I'm totally in favour of undercutting the dogs in the grearbox, and it's just a way of making sure that you don't have a failure on the track- like a bike that jumps out of gear. Indexing is also important , so I think It's a good idea to do both any time you have the bike apart. We run a 600 SP bike, and won't even hit the track without undercutting and indexing the gearbox first. The undercutting makes the dogs in the gearbox drag the gears together, rather than let them slide apart, while indexng ensures that all the dogs contact at the same time. We had some "issues" with a Kawasaki gearbox, and I had to do this by hand with a dremel (at midnight on a race weekend - gutted !). The stock box was so bad that my effort was closer than some of the other gears in the box. It's not uncommon for the original gears to be a mile off, and having very little undercut makes them shift into 1st real clean and smooth (nice on a road bike), but it's not good if you want a race gearbox to last - you need undercut for that.
Cam sprockets? I'm not so sure I agree with the rule on that, but then I don't make the rules . . . . . .
Absolutely right, many modern gearboxes are engineered by accountants, all that holds them in gear is a combination of shift drum detent spring tension and good luck.

[codgyoleracer]

90% of the content was indeed very good Glenn. But respectfully there was a little hypocrisy not too unlike the successive leaders of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics preaching the ''good socialist doctrine'' to the masses whilst not sharing in the misery. You had no compunction in getting us to build and develop the best possible Ohlins kit for that bike . Now that you have won a title with the substanial help of same you are only to happy to state that you would be happy to run oem. Mate, that frankly doesnt wash.
Maybe short and light people should be banned from compeition also because they have an unfair advantage.................

I can only assume (by the time of your post) - that youve been out celebrating with that tory nationaloistic mob of yours and in celebrating their win & having had a few to many wines :-)
To repeat though - If the rules were more inclined to stock standard stuff - i would still be out there having a go & having fun irrespective, - hopefully i would still run near the pointy end of the field as the fact of the matter is that suspension is only one small part of quite a big puzzle to put a good result together.
And with respect to this thread title - By my current count there will be as little as 10 bikes doing all rounds of the NZ Superbike title this year - , is that a good thing ?
P.S There are laws preventing us from minoritizing against height defective & weight efficient people in our sport, - however we set our own rules in respect to machine specification.

[Robert Taylor]

I can only assume (by the time of your post) - that youve been out celebrating with that tory nationaloistic mob of yours and in celebrating their win have had a few to many wines :-)
To repeat though - If the rules were more inclined to stock standard stuff - i would still be out there having a go & having fun irrespective, - hopefully i would still run near the pointy end of the field as the fact of the matter is that suspension is only one small part of quite a big puzzle to put a good result together.
And with respect to this thread title - By my current count there will be as little as 10 bikes doing all rounds of the NZ Superbike title this year - , is that a good thing ?
P.S There are laws preventing us from minoritizing against height defective & weight efficient people in our sport, - however we set our own rules in respect to machine specification.

And a great result it was too, another 10 seats would have been even better!
Yes, I know you would still be out there but you ( seemingly deliberately )understate how important and big a piece of the puzzle suspension is. I am making the point and again I make it ( respectfully ) that your post had a little hypocrisy in it.
Given the current economic climate 10 is a low number yes, but the economic climate should not be justification in itself to bastardise the rules. Think also that one of the distributors has massively increased its committment in road race and mx. Its not all doom and gloom and as I have said elsewhere we should not talk ourselves into it.
I quoted the example of short / lightweight riders to merely illustrate how ridiculous and ( if you like ) ''socialist'' some of our thinking is. Tall poppies get cut.

[Shaun]

[QUOTE=Robert Taylor;1817143]90% of the content was indeed very good Glenn.

You had no compunction in getting us to build and develop the best possible Ohlins kit for that bike . Now that you have won a title with the substanial help of same you are only to happy to state that you would be happy to run oem. Mate, that frankly doesnt wash.


He ordered it, he paid for it, he raced with it, and he won with it!

He is a human with his own decision making gland in his brain, and if he, ( AS A BUISNEES OWNER) chooses to say what he thinks and believes, that is his choice Robert.

To say " that frankly dose not wash" is like calling him some thing nasty, and that " Does not wash from a customers point of view"

You are the agent for a great product Robert, but your Sales PR on here is coming across very very staunch mate, customers have there own minds, so please let them use them, with out jumping on them mate.

Thanks for your honesty Glenn:2thumbsup

[Sketchy_Racer]

After re-reading my post - I quite like the whole thing actually ! :-)

I use the lovley Ohlins gear & Kerry Dukie's excellent service because it allows me go slightly faster & is of course more easily adjusted to variable conditions & tracks. If the rules didnt allow it - I wouldnt use it & personally I wouldnt be to concerned about that.
Nevertheless i race in a formula class - & this is the one class that should most likely allow these types of mod's.
But as this thread is about "production racing" - then there are many other options available.
IMO - they dropped the ball on this one with Pro-Twins, - a great opportunity to create a "stock class".

Glen Williams

So what you are saying there, Is that you feel that the aftermarket suspension is a nice luxury, but if you weren't allowed it, it wouldn't take away from the fun of racing in the class that you do so (obviously no one else is allowed one either)?

Cheers,

-Glen

[vtec]

And a great result it was too, another 10 seats would have been even better!
Yes, I know you would still be out there but you ( seemingly deliberately )understate how important and big a piece of the puzzle suspension is. I am making the point and again I make it ( respectfully ) that your post had a little hypocrisy in it.
Given the current economic climate 10 is a low number yes, but the economic climate should not be justification in itself to bastardise the rules. Think also that one of the distributors has massively increased its committment in road race and mx. Its not all doom and gloom and as I have said elsewhere we should not talk ourselves into it.
I quoted the example of short / lightweight riders to merely illustrate how ridiculous and ( if you like ) ''socialist'' some of our thinking is. Tall poppies get cut.


"...not too unlike the successive leaders of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics preaching the ''good socialist doctrine'' to the masses whilst not sharing in the misery." This quote of yours applies to you too Robert, you are on the winning side of the fence due to the allowance of extremely expensive (overpriced due to monopoly in NZ?) suspension. You have a vested interest in pushing suspension because you get to make money on it. I've used Ohlins before, and I've used Standard before, and I think that just makes me more educated to make a call it doesn't make me a hypocrit. And just because you say "respectfully" doesn't absolve you of what you say after it hahaha. Standard equipment is fine (in fact good) for racing. And from where I'm sitting the overwhelming majority of motorcycle racers agree with that.

I'm not denying that Ohlins is good suspension, it seems to do the trick. But you don't need aftermarket suspension to have fair fast fun exciting racing if everybody is in the same boat, it's as simple as that. If you have problems with tyres not lasting, then run a harder compound, there's scope for controlled tyres too to help longevity aswell.

One of the things that bothered me about having the Ohlins, was that the bike actually felt bad to me, and I never got fully confident and comfortable on the '03 CBR600RR that I had, and the biggest part of my lack of confidence was due to the fact that there were countless suspension variables that I didn't know how to adjust, and it did my head in. If I wanted help I would have had to be one of the front runners. I was top 5 with VMCC top 3 with PMCC and came 12th in my first ever Nationals supersport event, on second hand tyres, an older bike that there were some stability and power issues with, and a bike in which I NEVER got confident on, and without the ability to afford even monthly practice days, all on mine and my non-technical parents help. I would have loved the chance to race on a level playing field. All the while working as a bicycle courier (which kept me permanently exhausted) so I would be fit enough and be able to afford to race.

I gave up my Science degree to go racing, I couldn't do both. And waiting till the end of my degree I would have had a huge student loan, and be too old to make it anywhere.

We aren't trying to cut any tall poppies, we know Ohlins are good, we are just trying to help some small poppies grow in an environment that is currently aimed at keeping the tall poppies tall and the little poppies little (I'm referring to the riders). Currently you've either got to get lucky with sponsors or most commonly know important and knowledgeable people such as yourself.

[codgyoleracer]

So what you are saying there, Is that you feel that the aftermarket suspension is a nice luxury, but if you weren't allowed it, it wouldn't take away from the fun of racing in the class that you do so (obviously no one else is allowed one either)?

Cheers,

-Glen

Hi Glen, Essentially yes.
Under current rules everyone has the possibility to build a bike to a spec like mine or a far better one in fact. (but it does take time, money & experience to do). Of course if the rules were different then everyone would build to that new spec aye.
Personally - i think i would have just as much enjoyment irrespective of minor changes to machine spec.
In respect of Superbikes - they are stinkin fast & a huge amount of fun to ride in near stock spec & probably just as great a specatacle to the average spectator. However - wether "dumbing them down" will bring more competitors to the class is hard to say, - but i do have a few mates telling me that they are not doing it due to cost.
So its worth debating in an open forum like this aye.
GlenW

[Sketchy_Racer]

Hi Glen, Essentially yes.
Under current rules everyone has the possibility to build a bike to a spec like mine or far better one in fact. (but it does take time, money & experience to do). Of course if the rules were different then everyone would build to that new spec aye.
Personally - i think i would have just as much enjoyment irrespective of minor changes to machine spec.
In respect of Superbikes - they are stinkin fast & a huge amount of fun to ride in near stock spec & probably just as great a specatacle to the average spectator. However - wether "dumbing them down" will bring more competitors to the class is hard to say, - but i do have a few mates telling me that they are not doing it due to cost.
So its worth debating in an open forum like this aye.
GlenW

Cool, thanks for that.

It think that a stock class such as supersport or superbike would attract heaps of numbers.
Myself and Jason (vtec) have got ourselves a reasonably priced near stock K5 gixxer 600 to race. I think I will have more fun on that than I would on a $30k supersport bike.

I would love to see a production supersport or superbike class in NZ. I'd be there with bells on.

[jrandom]

In respect of Superbikes - they are stinkin fast & a huge amount of fun to ride in near stock spec & probably just as great a specatacle to the average spectator. However - wether "dumbing them down" will bring more competitors to the class is hard to say, - but i do have a few mates telling me that they are not doing it due to cost.

I bet.

If I could buy myself a stock thou and go straight out and race Superbikes knowing that my lack of skill was the only thing stopping me from winning, I would.

[scrivy]

I bet.

If I could buy myself a stock thou and go straight out and race Superbikes knowing that my lack of skill was the only thing stopping me from winning, I would.

You slut!! What does Betty say about that?? :bash:

[jrandom]

You slut!! What does Betty say about that?? :bash:

She says "Thank fuck, racing GSX1400s just ain't right, can you put my panniers back on now?"

[scrivy]

She says "Thank fuck, racing GSX1400s just ain't right, can you put my panniers back on now?"

You took them off her???!!! Where do you put your tools?? They would be handy for the 3 hour.......

[JayRacer37]

Let's not be silly here. Instead of trying to reduce costs all the time, lets let the rules go a bit. We go racing to race fast bikes, with the best parts! Its going to be expensive to do a season weather you are allowed a dead stock bike or a completly over the top one - remember without a deal it is 17k to buy a new bike, then 20k (to be compeditive) worth of tyres, then factor in any crashes or damage, and regular mantanence you have to do. AfterNow double the above for a two bike assult. After that you will need however much it will cost you to live in holiday parks/motels for at least three weeks, probably four by the end of the season, and travel to the rounds including almost a grand of ferries...whats some more costs making the bike faster? Having bikes with higher abilities will also let those riders with higher abilities shine. Why can't we have fun making the bikes as great as they can be...taking what you have and improving it is part of the challenge - look at Glen Williams ever developing SV. His hard work makes it better and better, and he is always trying new things, trying to make advances. Without that mentality you wouldn't have (and now I sound all cliche, but its true) creations like the Britten.

SO, I propose we leave 600SP alone as it is, and then have running parellel a Formula Xtreme 600 class...although noone would enter it would be a drool-fest looking at REALLY REALLY nice 600's in the pits...and wouldn't any racer want to have go on one of these???

[JayRacer37]

I'm not denying that Ohlins is good suspension, it seems to do the trick. But you don't need aftermarket suspension to have fair fast fun exciting racing if everybody is in the same boat, it's as simple as that. If you have problems with tyres not lasting, then run a harder compound, there's scope for controlled tyres too to help longevity aswell.
.

But then as you run the harder compounds and lower quality and feel tyres you take away the ability of the rider to feel to the limit so costs skyrocket in crash repairs. Not only that you bring in a safety risk because the way the stock suspension works means it is unpredictable as it (over)heats. You also put a disadvantage to some people/manufacturers, as not all bikes come with equal suspension, so suddenly the ZRRCRSR637 is a total disadvantage wheras the RRRRRRRSX650 has a huge advantage, because it is better equip stock. At least with the rules as they are everyone has the OPPERTUNITY to be even...make it stock and that is not so.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Let's not be silly here. Instead of trying to reduce costs all the time, lets let the rules go a bit. We go racing to race fast bikes, with the best parts! Its going to be expensive to do a season weather you are allowed a dead stock bike or a completly over the top one - remember without a deal it is 17k to buy a new bike, then 20k (to be compeditive) worth of tyres, then factor in any crashes or damage, and regular mantanence you have to do. AfterNow double the above for a two bike assult. After that you will need however much it will cost you to live in holiday parks/motels for at least three weeks, probably four by the end of the season, and travel to the rounds including almost a grand of ferries...whats some more costs making the bike faster? Having bikes with higher abilities will also let those riders with higher abilities shine. Why can't we have fun making the bikes as great as they can be...taking what you have and improving it is part of the challenge - look at Glen Williams ever developing SV. His hard work makes it better and better, and he is always trying new things, trying to make advances. Without that mentality you wouldn't have (and now I sound all cliche, but its true) creations like the Britten.

I agree mate keeping the current 600SP class is important, maybe even adjust the rules in that class to make the bikes more internationally competitive.

But as you say before you even hit the track to be on a real competitive bike you've already spent nearly $40k. Use someone like myself for example, I simply can't afford that sort of expense on my budget, but I still want to move up to a class where I can be semi competitive but still on 'fast' machines (Yes, I want my cake and eat it too)


SO, I propose we leave 600SP alone as it is, and then have running parellel a Formula Xtreme 600 class...although noone would enter it would be a drool-fest looking at REALLY REALLY nice 600's in the pits...and wouldn't any racer want to have go on one of these???

A Formula Xtreme 600 would be awesome, not only a cheap production class but it would leave the door open for casual road riders to come out and have a play and get a feeling for how competitive they are which equals even more people at the track which is what we want to achieve.

[Sketchy_Racer]

But then as you run the harder compounds and lower quality and feel tyres you take away the ability of the rider to feel to the limit so costs skyrocket in crash repairs. Not only that you bring in a safety risk because the way the stock suspension works means it is unpredictable as it (over)heats. You also put a disadvantage

I would love to have someone show some hard evidence of this or statistics to back it up. Many people have this belief, but I am yet to hear of someone blaming stock suspension or 'hard compound' for their crash. At the end of the day, not matter what your on, it comes back to the fella on top pulling the levers and their understanding of the limit and how close they are prepared to get to that limit.

[Robert Taylor]

[QUOTE=Robert Taylor;1817143]90% of the content was indeed very good Glenn.

You had no compunction in getting us to build and develop the best possible Ohlins kit for that bike . Now that you have won a title with the substanial help of same you are only to happy to state that you would be happy to run oem. Mate, that frankly doesnt wash.


He ordered it, he paid for it, he raced with it, and he won with it!

He is a human with his own decision making gland in his brain, and if he, ( AS A BUISNEES OWNER) chooses to say what he thinks and believes, that is his choice Robert.

To say " that frankly dose not wash" is like calling him some thing nasty, and that " Does not wash from a customers point of view"

You are the agent for a great product Robert, but your Sales PR on here is coming across very very staunch mate, customers have there own minds, so please let them use them, with out jumping on them mate.

Thanks for your honesty Glenn:2thumbsup

Actually I havent said I disagree with a closer to production class. But it is clear that many that post do not actually have a full understanding of the issues.
I get on well with Glenn and know that he wont take my comments with any malice, but I still stick by what I have said ( and think quoting the old USSR comparison injected a bit of fun, Glenn responded in kind ). As I also stated its a democracy, Ive stated my opinions and so have others.

[Robert Taylor]

"...not too unlike the successive leaders of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics preaching the ''good socialist doctrine'' to the masses whilst not sharing in the misery." This quote of yours applies to you too Robert, you are on the winning side of the fence due to the allowance of extremely expensive (overpriced due to monopoly in NZ?) suspension. You have a vested interest in pushing suspension because you get to make money on it. I've used Ohlins before, and I've used Standard before, and I think that just makes me more educated to make a call it doesn't make me a hypocrit. And just because you say "respectfully" doesn't absolve you of what you say after it hahaha. Standard equipment is fine (in fact good) for racing. And from where I'm sitting the overwhelming majority of motorcycle racers agree with that.

I'm not denying that Ohlins is good suspension, it seems to do the trick. But you don't need aftermarket suspension to have fair fast fun exciting racing if everybody is in the same boat, it's as simple as that. If you have problems with tyres not lasting, then run a harder compound, there's scope for controlled tyres too to help longevity aswell.

One of the things that bothered me about having the Ohlins, was that the bike actually felt bad to me, and I never got fully confident and comfortable on the '03 CBR600RR that I had, and the biggest part of my lack of confidence was due to the fact that there were countless suspension variables that I didn't know how to adjust, and it did my head in. If I wanted help I would have had to be one of the front runners. I was top 5 with VMCC top 3 with PMCC and came 12th in my first ever Nationals supersport event, on second hand tyres, an older bike that there were some stability and power issues with, and a bike in which I NEVER got confident on, and without the ability to afford even monthly practice days, all on mine and my non-technical parents help. I would have loved the chance to race on a level playing field. All the while working as a bicycle courier (which kept me permanently exhausted) so I would be fit enough and be able to afford to race.

I gave up my Science degree to go racing, I couldn't do both. And waiting till the end of my degree I would have had a huge student loan, and be too old to make it anywhere.

We aren't trying to cut any tall poppies, we know Ohlins are good, we are just trying to help some small poppies grow in an environment that is currently aimed at keeping the tall poppies tall and the little poppies little (I'm referring to the riders). Currently you've either got to get lucky with sponsors or most commonly know important and knowledgeable people such as yourself.

1 ) I am certainly not getting wealthy out of selling this product and you simply have no idea of the hours that I put in to back it up. Many many of those hours not charged for.
2 ) Monopoly, no. Strongest position in the marketplace by a huge margin yes. But only because we have worked at it very very hard and continue to do so.
3) We help anyone who asks but of course we cannot be everywhere all at the same time. We also have setup manuals for both road and on road that can be e-mailed. Following will be suspension set up seminars in the new year. Irrespective of what level of suspension you use.
4) We must still have some Elite ( Yes, Elite ! ) classes that are relevant to overseas competition. There is as much need for those as there is cost controlled classes. ( Balance )

[Robert Taylor]

I would love to have someone show some hard evidence of this or statistics to back it up. Many people have this belief, but I am yet to hear of someone blaming stock suspension or 'hard compound' for their crash. At the end of the day, not matter what your on, it comes back to the fella on top pulling the levers and their understanding of the limit and how close they are prepared to get to that limit.

Ive heard it a good many times, in spite of being seen to have a vested interest.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Ive heard it a good many times, in spite of being seen to have a vested interest.

Ok, what defines it as being a suspension/tyre problem rather than a rider error? Everyone makes excuses, not having the best suspension of best tyres seems to be a easy one to make excuses about, I know I certainly have in the past, so can understand how easy it is to do so.

[sidecar bob]

But then as you run the harder compounds and lower quality and feel tyres you take away the ability of the rider to feel to the limit so costs skyrocket in crash repairs.

I come from an era of 230kg racebikes with 120hp on 130 section tyres, (Katana 1100s) we rode to the limitations of the equipment & bins were no more frequent than today.

[k14]

A Formula Xtreme 600 would be awesome, not only a cheap production class but it would leave the door open for casual road riders to come out and have a play and get a feeling for how competitive they are which equals even more people at the track which is what we want to achieve.
Um if Jay was meaning a formula xtreme class as that in the states then it is further from production than current supersport. As in full aftermarket everything, carbon fibre fairings, magnesium wheels, fully up spec'd motor (I think you get the drift).

This thread seems to keep going round in circles, but I would love a solution to be had. On one hand I want to move up from 125's, but on the other hand I don't know what to do. Pro twin is a good class but hardly a step up, racing a commuter bike that is pretty similar weight to a 600 isn't that appealing and then going to a 600 is just too financially prohibitive. I'd need to sell my 125 and then probably raise a bit more $$ to be able to get out there. It's a hard call, but I think I am nearing the end of my 125 racing. Although that idea seems to change depending on which way the wind blows.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Um if Jay was meaning a formula xtreme class as that in the states then it is further from production than current supersport. As in full aftermarket everything, carbon fibre fairings, magnesium wheels, fully up spec'd motor (I think you get the drift).


Oh right, yeah I probably mis-read that

[JayRacer37]

I would love to have someone show some hard evidence of this or statistics to back it up. Many people have this belief, but I am yet to hear of someone blaming stock suspension or 'hard compound' for their crash. At the end of the day, not matter what your on, it comes back to the fella on top pulling the levers and their understanding of the limit and how close they are prepared to get to that limit.

Yamaha Virgin Mobile R6 cup in 2006. R6's with Perelli Diablo Sport touring/fast road tyres. No crashes in first 5 laps, half the feild in the last two...

[JayRacer37]

I come from an era of 230kg racebikes with 120hp on 130 section tyres, (Katana 1100s) we rode to the limitations of the equipment & bins were no more frequent than today.


But the bikes were designed around tyres like that. Chassis stifness was less, so feel came from that. On todays bikes, they are designed around full race tyres, and without that level of grip, they don't give you much feedback. Ive ridden bikes like you describe (BMW K100 racer, 120hp, 140 rear tyre, 250kg) and it was great fun as the weight gave momentum and took away the 'snapiness' of todays bikes, chassis geometry was more relaxed and easier to push the limit without ending up on the ground, and the less refined chassis gave felx and feel, matching the lower grip.

Also, 'today' we are racing on "race applicable tyres". If what is being talked about happens, and we DO get lowered tyres/sups, that is when crashes will rise, IMO.

[JayRacer37]

Sorry to go on again :)

The point i'm trying to put across is that today, as classes are, the bikes are in BALANCE. Tyres, race suspension and chassis technology match each other - like the Katana's Sidecar Bob refer's to.

If we dropped to stock/lower quality suspension, and then the tyres to allow the tyres to last with the lowered refinement of suspension, suddenly the CHASSIS has much more ability than either of the other MAJOR components. To me, thats when the danger/risk starts.

[steveyb]

This thread seems to keep going round in circles, but I would love a solution to be had. On one hand I want to move up from 125's, but on the other hand I don't know what to do. Pro twin is a good class but hardly a step up, racing a commuter bike that is pretty similar weight to a 600 isn't that appealing and then going to a 600 is just too financially prohibitive. I'd need to sell my 125 and then probably raise a bit more $$ to be able to get out there. It's a hard call, but I think I am nearing the end of my 125 racing. Although that idea seems to change depending on which way the wind blows.

Well Kirkus, of course we used to have the class just waiting for you, 250GP. :weep::weep::weep:
But now it is gone.
So sad.
But still great fun at club racing to carve up the bigger bikes,
Ay Sketchy??
Ah well, onwards and upwards.
Steve

[k14]

Well Kirkus, of course we used to have the class just waiting for you, 250GP. :weep::weep::weep:
But now it is gone.
So sad.
But still great fun at club racing to carve up the bigger bikes,
Ay Sketchy??
Ah well, onwards and upwards.
Steve
Yeah exactly, my weight and height disadvantage would be minimal on a 250 and I'd love for the class to still be strong, but them's the breaks! I'll probably just keep on the 125 till they go the way of the dodo too!

[codgyoleracer]

[QUOTE=Shaun;1817575]

Actually I havent said I disagree with a closer to production class. But it is clear that many that post do not actually have a full understanding of the issues.
I get on well with Glenn and know that he wont take my comments with any malice, but I still stick by what I have said ( and think quoting the old USSR comparison injected a bit of fun, Glenn responded in kind ). As I also stated its a democracy, Ive stated my opinions and so have others.

I think the three of us fully understand the advantages of being a capitalist in this "free" world. Although the word "free" does not sit well with the theory........ :-)

[Mishy]

[QUOTE=Robert Taylor;1818068]

I think the three of us fully understand the advantages of being a capitalist in this "free" world. Although the word "free" does not sit well with the theory........ :-)

"free" from some things, slaves to others !

[Mishy]

Sorry to go on again :)

The point i'm trying to put across is that today, as classes are, the bikes are in BALANCE. Tyres, race suspension and chassis technology match each other - like the Katana's Sidecar Bob refer's to.

If we dropped to stock/lower quality suspension, and then the tyres to allow the tyres to last with the lowered refinement of suspension, suddenly the CHASSIS has much more ability than either of the other MAJOR components. To me, thats when the danger/risk starts.

A point to back up Jay - many of our top young racers ride everything from classic's, to post classic's, to GP bikes, to modern sports bikes, and all in the same year. In jays case that would include K series BMW, late 80's GSXR1100, 125 and 250 GP bkes and a whole bunch of other stuff. Interestingly, these younger guys are probably better equiped to tell the rest of us how different modern race bikes are to the older machines, because they've raced em all, and most of us haven't.

[sidecar bob]

A point to back up Jay - many of our top young racers ride everything from classic's, to post classic's, to GP bikes, to modern sports bikes, and all in the same year. In jays case that would include K series BMW, late 80's GSXR1100, 125 and 250 GP bkes and a whole bunch of other stuff. Interestingly, these younger guys are probably better equiped to tell the rest of us how different modern race bikes are to the older machines, because they've raced em all, and most of us haven't.

At 42 i ride the following bikes & often all in the space of three weeks. RSV1000, RS125(Aprilia), Katana 1100, BMW R100rs, YZ426, classic Triumph sidecar, Modern Suzuki sidecar, Its not just the young guys that can get the best out of very different stuff.

[Cleve]

Let's not be silly here. Instead of trying to reduce costs all the time, lets let the rules go a bit. We go racing to race fast bikes, with the best parts! Its going to be expensive to do a season weather you are allowed a dead stock bike or a completly over the top one - remember without a deal it is 17k to buy a new bike, then 20k (to be compeditive) worth of tyres, then factor in any crashes or damage, and regular mantanence you have to do. AfterNow double the above for a two bike assult. After that you will need however much it will cost you to live in holiday parks/motels for at least three weeks, probably four by the end of the season, and travel to the rounds including almost a grand of ferries...whats some more costs making the bike faster? Having bikes with higher abilities will also let those riders with higher abilities shine. Why can't we have fun making the bikes as great as they can be...taking what you have and improving it is part of the challenge - look at Glen Williams ever developing SV. His hard work makes it better and better, and he is always trying new things, trying to make advances. Without that mentality you wouldn't have (and now I sound all cliche, but its true) creations like the Britten.

SO, I propose we leave 600SP alone as it is, and then have running parellel a Formula Xtreme 600 class...although noone would enter it would be a drool-fest looking at REALLY REALLY nice 600's in the pits...and wouldn't any racer want to have go on one of these???

Good points Jay. I fail to see the logic of some others on here in "saving money" by not having good suspension, when as you say quite correctly, the cost relative to a whole season is small and you will probably save money anyway on tyres, less crashes etc (and go faster and therefore have more fun)!

I like the idea of Superstock style rules for our F1 and F2 (for want of a better term), but for older bikes to Xtreme'd (for want of a better word) and run conjointly, as in PT/F3.
eg 1-2 year old 600's and 1000's with minimum modification racing against older 600's and 1000's with more modification allowed.

[slowpoke]

I like the idea of Superstock style rules for our F1 and F2 (for want of a better term), but for older bikes to Xtreme'd (for want of a better word) and run conjointly, as in PT/F3.
eg 1-2 year old 600's and 1000's with minimum modification racing against older 600's and 1000's with more modification allowed.

This sounds very much like what we are actually going to end up with.

I spoke to the Road Racing Commissioner prior to buying my new/old bike as I'd heard that updated rules were going to limit machine development in the future. I was worried that a modified Superbike would be left with nowhere to race or face costly "standardising". He is going to post the new rules for comment but the gist of it is that the older improved machines will be left as is to compete with more standard new machines.

It sounds good and practical in theory, but no doubt some people won't be happy with it.

[Shaun P]

This sounds very much like what we are actually going to end up with.

I spoke to the Road Racing Commissioner prior to buying my new/old bike as I'd heard that updated rules were going to limit machine development in the future. I was worried that a modified Superbike would be left with nowhere to race or face costly "standardising". He is going to post the new rules for comment but the gist of it is that the older improved machines will be left as is to compete with more standard new machines.

It sounds good and practical in theory, but no doubt some people won't be happy with it.

Its standard practise anyway if you read the new rule changes they normally apply to the bikes that are new and the older bikes are ok with the older rules eg no aftermarket pistons in s/bike only apply to bikes manufactured after '07 or something etc

[slowpoke]

So who can tell me why I should "undercut" my gears and "slot" my cam wheels if I had a pro twin ?

Slotting the cam wheels allows you to set the cam timing for maximum horsepower. It also allows you to make up for production variations. Ducati's (amongst others) are notorious for having horrendous variations in cam timing with a fairly simple cam timing procedure liberating a few more Italian ponies.

You could spend a bit of time on the dyno setting it for absolute maximum effect but realistically the information for best cam timing is readily available and costs bugger all except for a bit of time.



If I could buy myself a stock thou and go straight out and race Superbikes knowing that my lack of skill was the only thing stopping me from winning, I would.

Isn't it funny how people seem to find convenient excuses not to do something.

Go and watch a club meeting at Manfeild or Taupo and watch mega horsepower bikes, slick tyres and Ohlins up the wazoo get cleaned up by better riders on 600's with treaded tyres......or Glen Williams carving up most of the 600 field on his underpowered commuter bike.

Craig Shirriffs, Sam Smith, Jay Lawrence, Choppa, Johnny Burkhart and co have all been on the podium or won Superbike races on their 600's . They didn't give a toss about how many horsepower they were down, or whether the other bikes had fork cartridges or not, or how much theoretically faster the other bikes were, they just went out and raced, applying and improving their skills. The machine has fuck all to do with it.

Those who really want to race will....those who don't, won't.

[jrandom]

Isn't it funny how people seem to find convenient excuses not to do something.

I'm going to do it next summer regardless, mind you. I'll 'ave none of your 'convenient excuses' comebacks.

But first I'm going to do a summer series and a winter series of Clubmans, because I'm a fookin n00b and I need the practice.

Meh, I'm running out of steam for this argument, if Mr Shiriffs can win against trick bikes on a stock bike then so can I, right?

:done:

Fuckit, I'm done here, I'll come back and bleat some more on the subject in a year or two.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Go and watch a club meeting at Manfeild or Taupo and watch mega horsepower bikes, slick tyres and Ohlins up the wazoo get cleaned up by better riders on 600's with treaded tyres......or Glen Williams carving up most of the 600 field on his underpowered commuter bike.


Hey! Where's the mention of that cheeky young bugger on that 250GP bike. Im sure he did ok (in between falling off :bash:)
;)

[Tony.OK]

Hey! Where's the mention of that cheeky young bugger on that 250GP bike. Im sure he did ok (in between falling off :bash:)
;)

Shit I thought I had a mozzie in my helmet.........was that you:clap:

[slowpoke]

I'm going to do it next summer regardless, mind you. I'll 'ave none of your 'convenient excuses' comebacks.

But first I'm going to do a summer series and a winter series of Clubmans, because I'm a fookin n00b and I need the practice.

Meh, I'm running out of steam for this argument, if Mr Shiriffs can win against trick bikes on a stock bike then so can I, right?

:done:

Fuckit, I'm done here, I'll come back and bleat some more on the subject in a year or two.

Sorry mate, I didn't mean to come across so high and mighty; I'm neither, just another plodder having fun riding slow on a fast bike. Good onya for having a crack, although I reckon you'll soon see that at club level the bike spec doesn't have much to do with outright track performance (within reason). You'll be passing theoretically much faster bikes and vice versa wondering how someone on a slower bike seems to pull inexorably away. That's half the mystique of our sport, I reckon: there's always someone ready to show you that there's more in both you and the bike no matter how quick you feel you are going.

Do me a favour and take it easy when you go past me and at least make it look like you are tryin' hard would ya?


Hey! Where's the mention of that cheeky young bugger on that 250GP bike. Im sure he did ok (in between falling off :bash:)
;)

Is he still around? I thought I swatted him into the bushes when he tried to lap me.......

[Robert Taylor]

Slotting the cam wheels allows you to set the cam timing for maximum horsepower. It also allows you to make up for production variations. Ducati's (amongst others) are notorious for having horrendous variations in cam timing with a fairly simple cam timing procedure liberating a few more Italian ponies.

You could spend a bit of time on the dyno setting it for absolute maximum effect but realistically the information for best cam timing is readily available and costs bugger all except for a bit of time.



Isn't it funny how people seem to find convenient excuses not to do something.

Go and watch a club meeting at Manfeild or Taupo and watch mega horsepower bikes, slick tyres and Ohlins up the wazoo get cleaned up by better riders on 600's with treaded tyres......or Glen Williams carving up most of the 600 field on his underpowered commuter bike.

Craig Shirriffs, Sam Smith, Jay Lawrence, Choppa, Johnny Burkhart and co have all been on the podium or won Superbike races on their 600's . They didn't give a toss about how many horsepower they were down, or whether the other bikes had fork cartridges or not, or how much theoretically faster the other bikes were, they just went out and raced, applying and improving their skills. The machine has fuck all to do with it.

Those who really want to race will....those who don't, won't.

Actually all the guys you mentioned had cartridges and twin tube shocks. Part of their speed differential is down to the equipment. Youve made some really good posts but dropped the ball on this one a little.
Glen Williams speed is very much down to him but its also due to 25mm fork cartridges and twin tube shock. Theres just no way he could go as fast with the stock sponge pudding gap fillers installed, FACT.

[slowpoke]

Actually all the guys you mentioned had cartridges and twin tube shocks. Part of their speed differential is down to the equipment. Youve made some really good posts but dropped the ball on this one a little.
Glen Williams speed is very much down to him but its also due to 25mm fork cartridges and twin tube shock. Theres just no way he could go as fast with the stock sponge pudding gap fillers installed, FACT.

No problem Robert. Sure some of the guys I mentioned were probably running top spec suspension but they were still competing against bikes with 40+ more horsepower and aftermarket suspension themselves, albeit maybe not to the same spec.

One of the best races I saw last season was when Choppa got the jump on his 600 at Taupo in the first round of the Vic Club winter series. He had a built a nice buffer when Carey Brier finally broke clear of the pack on his ex-Bernard R1. It was nailbiting watching him slowly being hauled in as the laps ticked down. If the race was half a lap shorter Choppa would have pinched it against one of the best bikes in the country and a very capable rider in Carey.

Same goes for most of the Manfeild racing, with a track that has three drag strips and a simple layout horsepower should count for a lot, no matter how highly developed the suspension is, yet the best riders still shine through on bikes against lesser riders with much more horsepower at their disposal.

Point taken though Robert, having followed some of the guns around (ok, tried to follow 'em) the extra corner speed from a well set up bike and rider combo means half the ensuing straight is consumed before you start to make any inroads (if at all) against lesser powered bikes.