Riding in groups - Some of you have no idea!

[outlawtorn]

So hear begin my concerns....I have been on heaps of rides, some small, some large. But recently I have sat up and taken notice of how people ride in groups. And people ride badly!! I mean really badly!!

I have noticed a few incidents on previous rides over the years, but since riding with my mates from SA, they have pointed out to me the dangerous way that some people ride in groups over here, and I have started to really see how some riders just do not have a clue.

My first real eye opener was on the ‘Ride Against Violence’ (Auckland 7 Sep), there was a large amount of people there who simply did not have a clue about riding safely in large groups. The latest Auckland WIMA ride, saw more dangerous riding again and most recently the Boulevard Cruiser ride this Sunday took the cake. Some of the riders in that group were happy to travel on the motorway, at 100kph, 1-2 metres directly behind another bike, is it just me or is that really stupid? I have seen plenty of people jumping into staggered formation riding, causing some serious consternation and pissing off a few riders too. We went on the HOG ride on August 3rd and before we left we were all reminded of staggered riding and it was a real pleasure to ride with them, other groups/ride organisers should take a leaf out of their book.

Come on people, riding in groups is something we all need to learn, read up about it here: Ride Forever (http://www.rideforever.co.nz/road_awareness/group_riding.html)

Staggered Riding is explained as:
The minimum recommended spacing to the bike directly in front of you should not be less than two seconds (the two second rule). The bike in the lane to your left or right should not be less than one second ahead of you. You will find that two seconds is a long distance when riding at highway speeds. That is, it's a long distance when everything is going well. Unfortunately, when things go wrong, two seconds distance is gone in the time it takes to realize you are in trouble. The two second rule is a rule of thumb you should try to adhere to whenever possible. Especially at highway speeds. There are times, however, when it is best to squeeze together - while on city streets and slowing for a stop. This will help prevent cars from entering the group.

Riders, staggered riding!! Get used to it and ride to it!! Please!! This is also my life and my bike at risk as well as yours and the other road users around you.

People who are organising rides, please make sure you tell everyone about staggered riding before you leave, even if people do know how to ride in groups, reiterate it over and over, it only takes one person in a group to bugger it up for all of us.

OK, got that off my chest, thanks. :calm:

[DIN PELENDA]

Thank you !!!!

[ynot slow]

True and simple,have been guilty of getting close to rider in front at times,then usually back off a bit,can happen before and after turns etc.

[sinfull]

Your not torn at all are you !

[Blossom]

...Some of the riders in that group were happy to travel on the motorway, at 100kph, 1-2 metres directly behind another bike, ...


Yes been there seen that,
Admittedly The only group rides I have ever been on have been as a pillion and after those experiences the chances of me riding in a group ride are low. I am still refamiliarizing myself with riding again after 15 yrs and do not think I could handle someone tailing me that close..:no:

So if you haven't been on a group ride with a club or whatever, how do you find out what the riding etiquette is? Is it basically the same for every ride or does it differ from ride to ride?

[James Deuce]

Don't ride in groups. Simple.

[jrandom]

Don't ride. Simple.

Amazing how a special case of that solution covers every issue on these forums, isn't it?

:sherlock:

[CookMySock]

eh? Its good fun riding in close formation. It gives me something interesting to do while we putter along at 90k. :yawn:

Yeah some things are dangerous, but also they are fun so we do them from time to time for kicks. Thats what motorcycling IS innit? Or do we always ONLY do safe stuff? Why ride a bike if we can't misbehave? Whats the point to that?

Steve

[Usarka]

Every time i've done the group thing i've been left taking up the rear of some big fat hog.

Um, what I meant to say was that every time i've been in a group ride the front rider has had a different idea of where he should be - some say the front is a free-floater, some say he lives in the middle, some say left and some say right.......

Is there a hard and fast "rule" for this? :Police:

[jrandom]

eh? Its good fun riding in close formation. It gives me something interesting to do while we putter along at 90k. :yawn:

outlawtorn's problem (and I've seen it too) is that some knobjockeys have no idea what 'staggered formation' is. Processional group rides (as opposed to squidly road races) are quite safe when done properly in that way.

[PrincessBandit]

My group riding has been quite limited, but I did do the WIMA ride (:wavey:) I saw some riding which just had me shaking my head but none that I considered particularly dangerous. I guess while we all know to be responsible for our own safety you kinda assume that other riders will be considerate when you're in a group. Judging by some of what I've read on this site that kind of assumption is likely to lead to big visits from the fu@kup fairy. There are inconsiderate riders too, and you just have to ride as if everyone else travelling with you is another potential danger, whether they are intentionally or otherwise. Although I enjoyed the pink ribbon ride immensely I think I'll stick to smaller group rides for the most part until my riding experience and skills have been developed more.

[Katman]

eh? Its good fun riding in close formation. It gives me something interesting to do while we putter along at 90k. :yawn:

Yeah some things are dangerous, but also they are fun so we do them from time to time for kicks. Thats what motorcycling IS innit? Or do we always ONLY do safe stuff? Why ride a bike if we can't misbehave? Whats the point to that?

Steve

Every time I think you might just be starting to learn something you come out with a post that proves you're still the same fucking moron you've always sounded like.

[jrandom]

Every time I think you might just be starting to learn something you come out with a post that proves you're still the same fucking moron you've always sounded like.

Yes, there is that.

:pinch:

Keep taking the blue pills, DB!

[Swoop]

Is there a hard and fast "rule" for this? :Police:
The harder and faster the group is riding, the more space you leave...

[slimjim]

Every time I think you might just be starting to learn something you come out with a post that proves you're still the same fucking moron you've always sounded like.

O Dear...someones had grapefruit for breaky..

[jrandom]

O Dear...someones had grapefruit for breaky..

Garnished with nails.

[MSTRS]

So if you haven't been on a group ride with a club or whatever, how do you find out what the riding etiquette is? Is it basically the same for every ride or does it differ from ride to ride?Shouldn't matter who is riding (what group)...the etiquette, as you put it, should be one of safety for each individual AND the group as a whole.



Um, what I meant to say was that every time i've been in a group ride the front rider has had a different idea of where he should be - some say the front is a free-floater, some say he lives in the middle, some say left and some say right.......

Is there a hard and fast "rule" for this? To me, the logical place for the lead rider is the right hand wheel track, with the group staggered behind him/her. Done that way, if some other motorist (read dickhead cager) passes the group, when they pull back in there is not a rider in what they think was free space.


I guess while we all know to be responsible for our own safety you kinda assume that other riders will be considerate when you're in a group. Judging by some of what I've read on this site that kind of assumption is likely to lead to big visits from the fu@kup fairy.

Yep. Never assume anything. Look out for your safety first, then those around you. Bear in mind that you are responsible for what you do, but someone near you may not be taking their responsibility seriously. Be prepared to detach from the group if you think it's dangerous to remain a part of it.

[Ixion]

outlawtorn's problem (and I've seen it too) is that some knobjockeys have no idea what 'staggered formation' is. Processional group rides (as opposed to squidly road races) are quite safe when done properly in that way.

For a procession: tight stagger, the front of your front wheel level with the rear of your wheelman's rear wheel (but in the other track of course) . Loose stagger, one bike length between your front and his rear. Highway, open up to about 3 bike lengths.

BUT: the important point that is not realised is that this only works if all riders observe group riding discipline.

You do NOT overtake except to follow your wheelman. He (and those ahead of him) will only overtake something if signalled to do so by pack leader or ride captain. If your wheelman moves out, you move out. You must trust the pack leader. You keep your track (so, like a car), based on your wheelman. You do not open up or close up without a signal from the pack leader. You do not go slower, or faster than your wheelman. So, the whole pack stays together. Above all, if you know what is good for you do not fuck up. If you do, any crash will probably be the least of your worries.

Those who do not observe the propierties end up having a painful interview with the Master at Arms.

(your wheelman is the rider ahead of you. Your position in the pack will be asigned by the pack leader. You stay there . No ifs buts or maybes. The wheelman will be in front of you, to your left or right. He will take far right wheeltrack or far left wheel track, you take the opposite. And stay there. Come what may. You brake when he does. Accelerate when he does)

It is not easy this riding. I have not done it for many years. But if done properly it is quite safe.

[Usarka]

To me, the logical place for the lead rider is the right hand wheel track, with the group staggered behind him/her. Done that way, if some other motorist (read dickhead cager) passes the group, when they pull back in there is not a rider in what they think was free space.


Me too but I'm surprised at the number of people who disagree....

[vifferman]

The last time I rode in staggered formation, I had the misfortune to be near three Harleys with drag pipes. Even with earplugs in, it was very unpleasant. Staggeringly unpleasant even. Or perhaps 'uneven'. :confused:

James the Deuce is right. You're better off not riding in groups. Solves everything, perhaps even World Hunger, Globular Yawning, and Other Title Case Phrases.

[CookMySock]

Every time I think you might just be starting to learn something you come out with a post that proves you're still the same fucking moron you've always sounded like.You know, I read your rant a few times and thought about it for a few minutes, and I am thinking exactly the same thing about you.

[Ragingrob]

When riding in a group, ride by yourself....

[slimjim]

When riding in a group, ride by yourself....

:shutup:..fuck.. like to see the wife would say about that..:innocent:..lol

[Morcs]

Everyone should ride faster.

Riding slow and staggered is kind pointless.
I like at least 20 metres space behind and infront.

[pritch]

Best advice I have seen is to ride no closer to the guy you are following than he is behind the guy to his front. That distance presumably being what he feels comfortable with.

Then again I don't go on the really big group rides like the Christmas toy run, too many idiots.

[NighthawkNZ]

eh? Its good fun riding in close formation. It gives me something interesting to do while we putter along at 90k. :yawn:

Yeah some things are dangerous, but also they are fun so we do them from time to time for kicks. Thats what motorcycling IS innit? Or do we always ONLY do safe stuff? Why ride a bike if we can't misbehave? Whats the point to that?

Steve


What the fuck are you smokin today... :bash:

[MSTRS]

What the fuck are you smokin today... :bash:

Just today? I think he was dropped on his head as a baby....

[slimjim]

What the fuck are you smokin today... :bash:


so what the fuck lead's you to belive he smokes...

[98tls]

Riding in groups sounds as exciting as a church groups bbq not to mention there seems even more etiquette.:wacko:

[outlawtorn]

eh? Its good fun riding in close formation. It gives me something interesting to do while we putter along at 90k. :yawn:

Yeah some things are dangerous, but also they are fun so we do them from time to time for kicks. Thats what motorcycling IS innit? Or do we always ONLY do safe stuff? Why ride a bike if we can't misbehave? Whats the point to that?

Steve

Dude, you cannot be serious? And if you are you best keep this dumb comments to yourself, it'll just make you even more unpopular than you already are.

[buellbabe]

I tend to ride with only 2 or 3 other bikes and no matter who is leading we just naturally fall into a staggered mode. We each know the others style of riding and if an emergency stop happens there is very little chance of any of us rear-ending the other.
Quite simply. It works.

[Maha]

eh? Its good fun riding in close formation. It gives me something interesting to do while we putter along at 90k. :yawn:

Yeah some things are dangerous, but also they are fun so we do them from time to time for kicks. Thats what motorcycling IS innit? Or do we always ONLY do safe stuff? Why ride a bike if we can't misbehave? Whats the point to that?

Steve

Just a few points Steve....

There is a thread doing the rounds atm, 'which piece of road do you own'' you may have seen it?
While I view that thread as a 'throw away thread' hence my comment in there, one should also think about the flipside of the thread title.

'Some day, that same peice of road could own you'

I wasn't going to get into this but...
Last Saturday night, a question was asked by a young fulla that totally floored me.
He said '' do you guys ride to die or ride to live''?
Now the headspace of some people on here leaves me gobsmacked at times, really it does. I do not ever need to be around people who beleive in that statement.

If I owned this site, the would be a regular cleanout of memebers, they would be given the option of toning it down or fucking off.
Sure some things are said in jest on here and I have a pretty good idea of whos having a wind up and whos not. That being said, posting dumb shit for the sake of it (or a response) is begining to wear thin from where I sit.

[nodrog]

If I owned this site....

i hear Finn is in need of money to pay for his latino ladyboy, he may well be selling.

[Zoolander]

eh? Its good fun riding in close formation. It gives me something interesting to do while we putter along at 90k. :yawn:

Yeah some things are dangerous, but also they are fun so we do them from time to time for kicks. Thats what motorcycling IS innit? Or do we always ONLY do safe stuff? Why ride a bike if we can't misbehave? Whats the point to that?

Steve

You really are a complete twat aren't you. I only hope no newcomers to this game ever browse through these forums and take any of your ill conceived posts seriously.

[Maha]

You really are a complete twat aren't you. I only hope no newcomers to this game ever browse through these forums and take any of your ill conceived posts seriously.


Exactly my point, weed out the fucken rubbish that we all know has no substance at all, and maybe, just maybe this wonderful site wont attract those who dont appretiate thier own lives, let alone others.

[Maha]

i hear Finn is in need of money to pay for his latino ladyboy, he may well be selling.

Primo, I want to get off the floor and into a comfy seat....like yours...:msn-wink:

[Tank]

You really are a complete twat aren't you. I only hope no newcomers to this game ever browse through these forums and take any of your ill conceived posts seriously.

You have to remember this is the same Dangerousbastard who threw a wobbly because he wasnt made a mentor.

I don't believe he post this kind of dribble to get a reaction - I actually think he believes it.

If he rides as he says he does, and beyond his limits - I think its only a matter of time until he takes himself off KB. I just hope he doesn't take any others with him.

(Hoping the mods prefer this post in the thread - the other one got me infracted and PD'ed)

[AlBundy]

You do NOT overtake except to follow your wheelman. He (and those ahead of him) will only overtake something if signalled to do so by pack leader or ride captain. If your wheelman moves out, you move out. You must trust the pack leader. You keep your track (so, like a car), based on your wheelman. You do not open up or close up without a signal from the pack leader. You do not go slower, or faster than your wheelman. So, the whole pack stays together. Above all, if you know what is good for you do not fuck up. If you do, any crash will probably be the least of your worries.

Those who do not observe the propierties end up having a painful interview with the Master at Arms.

(your wheelman is the rider ahead of you. Your position in the pack will be asigned by the pack leader. You stay there . No ifs buts or maybes. The wheelman will be in front of you, to your left or right. He will take far right wheeltrack or far left wheel track, you take the opposite. And stay there. Come what may. You brake when he does. Accelerate when he does)

It is not easy this riding. I have not done it for many years. But if done properly it is quite safe.



WHAT?

This logic goes a long way to explain why you see some VERY STUPID overtaking. Does the trailing rider NOT have the ability to think for himself?

I'm sorry, I'm not following anyone into an overtaking manoeuver unless I've confirmed it's safe to do so, rules be fucked!

[slimjim]

For a procession: tight stagger, the front of your front wheel level with the rear of your wheelman's rear wheel (but in the other track of course) . Loose stagger, one bike length between your front and his rear. Highway, open up to about 3 bike lengths.

BUT: the important point that is not realised is that this only works if all riders observe group riding discipline.

You do NOT overtake except to follow your wheelman. He (and those ahead of him) will only overtake something if signalled to do so by pack leader or ride captain. If your wheelman moves out, you move out. You must trust the pack leader. You keep your track (so, like a car), based on your wheelman. You do not open up or close up without a signal from the pack leader. You do not go slower, or faster than your wheelman. So, the whole pack stays together. Above all, if you know what is good for you do not fuck up. If you do, any crash will probably be the least of your worries.

Those who do not observe the propierties end up having a painful interview with the Master at Arms.

(your wheelman is the rider ahead of you. Your position in the pack will be asigned by the pack leader. You stay there . No ifs buts or maybes. The wheelman will be in front of you, to your left or right. He will take far right wheeltrack or far left wheel track, you take the opposite. And stay there. Come what may. You brake when he does. Accelerate when he does)

It is not easy this riding. I have not done it for many years. But if done properly it is quite safe.

O yea...been there.. done this..however this above is pack riding....not group riding..diff is wearing on back an what relates too..social riding as what...group riding is classed as..

[outlawtorn]

WHAT?

This logic goes a long way to explain why you see some VERY STUPID overtaking. Does the trailing rider NOT have the ability to think for himself?

I'm sorry, I'm not following anyone into an overtaking manoeuver unless I've confirmed it's safe to do so, rules be fucked!
Dude, I think you may have taken this differently to others, of course your safety is paramount but you do have to place a certain amount of trust on the group leader. Yes you have the ability to think and decide for yourself, but when you have anything from 3 to 300 bikes behind all looking at the people ahead for guidance then you better make sure you fall into line. Also different circumstances apply to different scenarios, if you are riding on the moroway and everything is peachy then cool, but if you are in the country and going through heaps of twisties then you increase your following distance and take the safest line into a corner.

Does anyone remember the huge pile up that happended in Portugal a few years back? I can only guess that staggered riding was not being thought about or adhered to.

[PirateJafa]

Just a few points Steve....


You really are a complete twat aren't you. I only hope no newcomers to this game ever browse through these forums and take any of your ill conceived posts seriously.

Guys, don't feed the troll.

[Finn]

i hear Finn is in need of money to pay for his latino ladyboy, he may well be selling.

Sheboy earns her keep, don't you worry. Just got back from lunch... phew, sleepy now.

P.S. Say "No" to group rides.

[nodrog]

Just got back from lunch... ...

at least you wont find hair in your tuna sandwhich.

[Finn]

at least you wont find hair in your tuna sandwhich.

Looked more like a badly wrapped kebab afterwards.

[warewolf]

I've posted before: Staggered formation is wrong (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=65757).

Essentially there is one optimum place to be on the road at a given time, and that should not be compromised by proximity to another vehicle, apparently 'friendly' or not.

Staggered formation is something to be reserved for your next circus performance, like these guys:
<object width="425" height="344">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UrLvYrKYVD8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>

[sinfull]

O yea...been there.. done this..however this above is pack riding....not group riding..diff is wearing on back an what relates too..social riding as what...group riding is classed as..
Was gonna post a reply much the same to Ixions post !
Done a little bit of pack riding myself (years ago ! Hey i'm old now) and what he says is mostly correct, with pack runs (in my case there was more harleys than anything else) the front guy starts a run and (usually) the car pulls left due to the sound of drag pipes all lighting up at once and he's all of a sudden aware there is a mob of bikes flying past ! And yes if the guy in front twists the throttle, so do you, or yr liable to get the bike behind you up yr arse ! I'm talking pak rides, forget the c cause there aint no room for a letter c between one bike and the next ! still staggered but (usually) only enough room for the left track guy to swing in line to pass, then hook left track as soon as he's done it !
Unfortunately when things go bad it usually ends up in at least three bikes going down !
4 guys i know from around these ways, went down together on a ride a few weeks ago, due to a car cutting them off, all 4 went off the road together 2 are still in intensive !
Although it is an adrenilyn rush to ride that way, i think i'd much prefer to sit on another guy (or gals) back wheel on the track nowdays ! Same rush and *far safer* not to mention i can pass him anytime (hehe or not)! then again i don't associate with many clubs now either, on a dif buzz)

Group rides, such as a few i have been on with KBers, i leave a hell of a lot more room than say, i would with a group of mates who i know how they ride and vice versa !
Allthough *EVERYONE* on here is obviously a marvelous person and i wouldn't even think i had the riding ability, to say i'm better than any on here, it's just that there would unlikely be many on here who know how i ride, when i will jump, twitch, fart or brake AND vice versa, apart from the odd few i have tried to keep up to on the track ! So why the hell would i/you want to ride on yr/my shoulder ! Being on the same forum is one thing but i sure as hell don't want be in the same ward as you cause you twitched left and braked, when i went right and give it a fist full to get out of trouble !

I ride on the left wheel track on the road in a group by the way !!!! If i do jump the cue in front of you, it aint cause ya smell, it will be because you don't have a left hook mirror just like me and i cant see your eyes (wink wink)!

[MSTRS]

I've posted before: Staggered formation is wrong (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=65757).

Essentially there is one optimum place to be on the road at a given time, and that should not be compromised by proximity to another vehicle, apparently 'friendly' or not.


I remember...and I still think "You what?"
Do you understand the term 'staggered'? The guys in that clip are Line Astern.
But if you follow the 2 second rule, and are unhappy with someone less than 2 secs ahead (but in the other wheel track), then why don't you assume duties as TEC?

[alanzs]

I ride at the back and watch it all happen. And, I live to ride another day...

[Katman]

Those who do not observe the propierties end up having a painful interview with the Master at Arms.



I bet you wouldn't tell that same Master at Arms that you've passed on their pack riding techniques to "a lovely bunch of guys and girls on an internet website that I could give you the address of if you're interested".

:msn-wink:

[Mom]

eh? Its good fun riding in close formation. It gives me something interesting to do while we putter along at 90k. :yawn:

Yeah some things are dangerous, but also they are fun so we do them from time to time for kicks. Thats what motorcycling IS innit? Or do we always ONLY do safe stuff? Why ride a bike if we can't misbehave? Whats the point to that?

Steve


Remind me never ever to be on my motorcycle anywhere you are riding mate! What an irresponsible, stupid friggen post!

[MSTRS]

Remind me never ever to be on my motorcycle anywhere you are riding mate! What an irresponsible, stupid friggen post!

Ooooh Mom. Careful. He'll get all upset. He doesn't like it when his posts are treated with derision/scorn/contempt. He also doesn't like it when he's told his smile will get re-arranged if he tries that shit round me or mine.
DAMHIK

[NighthawkNZ]

Remind me never ever to be on my motorcycle anywhere you are riding mate! What an irresponsible, stupid friggen post!


same... a complete twat if you ask me... but well no body asked... :rolleyes:

[warewolf]

Do you understand the term 'staggered'? The guys in that clip are Line Astern.Oh yes, I understand the term staggered. Do you understand the term sarcasm?

Staggered formation basically says, "I am going to ignore the guidelines for optimum safe riding in order that the group takes up less space on the road". It presumes - erroneously - that the nearby riders are no threat, and that saving space on the road is a worthwhile endeavour. This goes against the entire point of safe riding taught at every training course I have done, every riding technique book I have read, where every vehicle is considered a threat, and you maximise your buffer space from them: both front/rear and to the sides.

Re-defining your buffer space as half of "your" lane to allow a staggered bike doesn't cut it. I think this is the main point of contention: those in favour reckon they still have an acceptable buffer zone, as they trust the vehicle consuming half of their buffer; those against acknowledge the buffer is reduced as soon as any vehicle encroaches within it, supposedly a friendly or not.

Spacing out the stagger to 2+ seconds means the other bike is considered too far away to require action against the threat. In other words, taking up the same amount of space as independent non-grouped vehicles ... so can't be called staggered formation.

Staggering along the straights then adjusting speed into the corners doesn't cut it. It means that rather than adjusting speed to suit your riding conditions, you are adjusting your speed to satisfy the formation... definitely the lesser of the two goals. And right at the higher risk situation: the corner.

One of the dumbest moves I see ppl do while riding in staggered formation occurs along straights. I'll be in the right-hand wheel track, near the middle of the road, maximising distance from roadside hazards. As an oncoming vehicle approaches, I move to the left-hand wheel track to maximise the space to the biggest threat: the vehicle closing on me in the vicinity of 200km/h. The fellah behind is so hung up on riding in staggered formation, that he moves from the safe place (left hand wheel track) to the worst place (right hand wheel track) right at the time I have made the decision to move the other way - putting himself at unnecessary risk.

The solution is to ride your own ride: you put your bike in the best place for you, and don't trust anyone else to make decisions on your behalf.


then why don't you assume duties as TEC?I might, if'n I knew what it was.

[NighthawkNZ]

I might, if'n I knew what it was.

Tail End Charlie

[MSTRS]

Long explanation that makes good sense....

I might, if'n I knew what it was.

Tail End Charlie

[warewolf]

TEC... right, I see, ta.

If I feel I'm too close to the vehicle in front, I'll increase the gap. Don't have to go to TEC to achieve that. Or maybe if the gap keeps closing because they are consistently slower than I am, I'll pass them.

[Maha]

TEC... right, I see, ta.

If I feel I'm too close to the vehicle in front, I'll increase the gap. Don't have to go to TEC to achieve that. Or maybe if the gap keeps closing because they are consistently slower than I am, I'll pass them.

Then you could always be RIC ???

[warewolf]

Then you could always be RIC ???Allrighty, translate that one, too :clap:

[yungatart]

Don't ride in groups. Simple.

Or...ride in sensible groups, where you know and trust your fellow riders.

[Maha]

Allrighty, translate that one, too :clap:

Check your User CP.....;)

[warewolf]

Check your User CP.....;)
...
Rider In ChargeWell if they are the lead rider, then that's probably not a solution, either.

[AlBundy]

Unfortunately when things go bad it usually ends up in at least three bikes going down! 4 guys i know from around these ways, went down together on a ride a few weeks ago, due to a car cutting them off, all 4 went off the road together 2 are still in intensive !

........

I think i'd much prefer to sit on another guy (or gals) back wheel on the track nowdays!

Sorry to hear but that's a case in point... See, now what I don't get, where is Katman? This shit is just as bad as riding fast.... Or maybe that's why Katman hasn't jumped on it..... Because it goes against his logic that only sportbikes at speed cause accidents?

Agree totally with the track comment.....

[Maha]

Well if they are the lead rider, then that's probably not a solution, either.

Solution to what?
On some group rides....nobody passes the lead rider, technically not RIC granted, but its stated at the begining of the said ride.
I have organised about a dozen ride and never had a problem.
I must attract class!....:yes:

[alanzs]

After riding for a few decades, I have come to believe that riding, like many things is best done alone. With a partner can be fun and in a group can be even more fun. The danger rises exponentially. :hug:

[warewolf]

Solution to what?To the problem of not being happy riding in staggered formation.


I must attract class!....:yes:Lucky you! Hopefully not in the sense that opposites attract? :msn-wink:

[dipshit]

To the problem of not being happy riding in staggered formation.

I agree. I don't want to be forced into using a single track on the road. Different lines, bumps, traffic, visibility, means I want to use any part of my side of the road as I see fit. Others can get fucked.

Riding with a couple of mates that I trust is fine. We all give each other plenty of space.

However travelling in large packs seems gay to me.

[Katman]

Because it goes against his logic that only sportbikes at speed cause accidents?



Don't know where you got that one from - stupidity comes in all shapes and sizes.

[madbikeboy]

My $0.02.


Depends. If I'm riding in a large group, I want a big buffer around me, more than staggered - normally I'll ride a lane over or something that gives me situational awareness and safety. You can't have situational awareness if you're close to something and you can't see past it, even it's a small object like a bike. I like being TEC amongst Harley Riders, those guys can be really funny to watch.

But, I'm also a cyclist, and we ride for hours at a time with 2 inch gaps between us and the chick in front (my rule is find the hottest chick/ass and follow that), and with bars actually touching occasionally. In sprints, you ride shoulder against shoulder, and hitting speeds like 65-75 depending on the finish slope or lack thereof.

My point is, I ride with much less following distance with my core group of mates, for example ZXRider is an ex-cyclist, and I trust him with his observation since I've ridden literally thousands of K's trusting him. If I can keep up with the old fucker that is.

With newbies or people that I don't know, distance is key.

Also, so long as I have an escape route, I'm okay about less distance. The key is to ride alongside if someone outbrakes you - so long as there is room to the right or left. Look up Keith Code and Quick Steer if you need some guidance on how quickly a bike will actually turn. You need to realise that if there's space to walk past someone, then if even they do something dumb, you've got the ability to ride past, and complete your braking.

MBB.

[sinfull]

Sorry to hear but that's a case in point... See, now what I don't get, where is Katman? This shit is just as bad as riding fast.... Or maybe that's why Katman hasn't jumped on it..... Because it goes against his logic that only sportbikes at speed cause accidents?

Agree totally with the track comment..... Whats with editing this after i bling ya ? This shit ?
You might be surprised how some may have ridden in the past Al ! But you may also be surprised, that some realise they got away with it back in the bad ol days and now wish to change things !
Perhaps he reads into it what it was meant to portray ?

[Badjelly]

But, I'm also a cyclist, and we ride for hours at a time with 2 inch gaps between us and the chick in front (my rule is find the hottest chick/ass and follow that), and with bars actually touching occasionally. In sprints, you ride shoulder against shoulder, and hitting speeds like 65-75 depending on the finish slope or lack thereof.

And occasionally groups of cyclists riding like that go down like nine pins.

Oh well, each to his own.

[sinfull]

Allthough *EVERYONE* on here is obviously a marvelous person and i wouldn't even think i had the riding ability, to say i'm better than any on here,!


I bet you wouldn't tell that same Master at Arms that you've passed on their pack riding techniques to "a lovely bunch of guys and girls on an internet website that I could give you the address of if you're interested".

:msn-wink:


where is Katman?


Don't know where you got that one from - stupidity comes in all shapes and sizes.
Or perhaps you missed the subtlety

[AlBundy]

Whats with editing this after i bling ya ? This shit ?
You might be surprised how some may have ridden in the past Al ! But you may also be surprised, that some realise they got away with it back in the bad ol days and now wish to change things !
Perhaps he reads into it what it was meant to portray ?

Sorry dude.

The point I was trying to make, is Katman will find ANY thread to preach the dangers, yet, he's virtually said nothing about that sort of riding. It's more about his double standard than what you said.

[Nagash]

Well that was a big let down.. another straggered formation post.

When I was reading about how shocked your mates from SA were about our group rides, I was expecting a little bit more than just how poorly NZ'ers ride staggered. They do heaps more stupid shit than that when I go on group rides!

- Corner markers getting bored and just taking off, causing half the group to get lost.

- Dragging away from lights

- Passing with no indication what-so-ever, alot of the time in the same lane, either side depending on how much room there is at the time.

- Rarely is a TEC assigned, and most of the time the slowest rider becomes the TEC

- Some people try to stay in formation even round corners, that's always a laugh

- People not staying in staggered formation and it becomes staggered, staggered formation. With some people following directly behind, some people in the right position, and some just sitting in the road

---

Following too closely during staggered formation has been done.. move onto something else.

Last years Westpac was an eye opener with people passing people on one wheel through groups of bikes..

[madbikeboy]

And occasionally groups of cyclists riding like that go down like nine pins.

Oh well, each to his own.

Most of the crashes are low speed, with the halo of invincibility that polystyrene hats and lycra affords us, we can normally get back on the back of the bunch fairly quickly. I've ridden with broken bones, but cyclists redefine hard ass. I know a kiwi chick cyclist who peeled her cast off her freshly broken and pinned wrist in order to ride for Olympic selection (the rules say you can't ride with a cast, but there's no rule about riding with broken bones...).

[KiwiKat]

I've only been riding with groups for a few months. Everyone has different skill levels and you need to respect that. I don't like following a set line but if the road allows for it I will stagger. One of the biggest issues seems to be everyone accelerating to catch up with the lead rider / group then slowing down or trying to catch up on straights because you can't keep up on corners.

On the whole riding in groups has helped my skills and confidence immensely and when I did come off there were other riders. Sometimes organisation sucks and other times it's fantastic. (kudos to Manawatu Riders).

Graeme Allardices book has some excellent advice

[sinfull]

Sorry dude.

The point I was trying to make, is Katman will find ANY thread to preach the dangers, yet, he's virtually said nothing about that sort of riding. It's more about his double standard than what you said.
I wasn't referring to me !

[Ixion]

One point about group (or pack) riding that is often overlooked is that every rider (except TEC) must ride with an eye both to the rider in front of him (obviously) , but also to the rider behind him.

If this is done , much of the disquiet expressed is obviated. For instance, if one is in the habit of braking late in corners (as I do), and one observes the rider behind being "caught out" by this, it is simple and courteous to flick the brake lever for a moment at the "slowing down" point, even if one does not actually brake then.

Similaly if the rider behind is having trouble keeping up (falling back in corners, and trying to catch up on straights), it is simple enough to slow down a bit through the corners.

Riding in groups does require discipline, and courtesy. That is no bad thing, indeed , IMHO , it is a valuable thing. It also requires a rider to maintain a 360 degree situational awareness. Again, no bad thing to be required to practice.

Of course a group race is another matter, and I suspect much of the bad reputation of group rides springs from this: that many of them are in fact races.

[Katman]

It's more about his double standard than what you said.

If you can point out any "double standards" (from me) on display in this thread, I'll STFU for good.

[James Deuce]

that many of them are in fact races.

All KB groups rides end up races. Without exception.

[Ixion]

All KB groups rides end up races. Without exception.

No, I can say from personal experience that that is incorrect. It is necessary however to be judicious in ones selection.

[scumdog]

All KB groups rides end up races. Without exception.

Ya ain't ridden much down here then eh?

[James Deuce]

No, I can say from personal experience that that is incorrect. It is necessary however to be judicious in ones selection.
And I can say the opposite with equal conviction. Which really does point out the futility of attempting to argue an opinion on an Internet forum. Judicious or not, I've almost given up on the "Cruisy" Wednesday ride, let alone the Thursday Sprint Race and Stunting double feature. The Sunday morning quiet rides were a good way to travel 2 kilometers from a Gas station and then have to ring for a trailer or van to remove some wreckage.

With only a couple of exceptions, the people I spend time on the road with do not participate on KB.

I loathe group rides. They infringe on the basic human right to travel unmolested to your destination.

[MSTRS]

No, I can say from personal experience that that is incorrect. It is necessary however to be judicious in ones selection.

Some of the rides...all the time.
All of the rides...some of the time.
But never all of the rides, all of the time.
And almost never on the rides I'm involved in.

[Arrowolf]

Thank´s G.., most of the time i ride alone.
Arrowolf

[Ocean1]

All KB groups rides end up races. Without exception.

I was not racing you! :no:

I was assessing your lines and brakng points. :yes:


I've almost given up on the "Cruisy" Wednesday ride, let alone the Thursday Sprint Race and Stunting double feature.

And you wern't cruising, dude... :oi-grr:

Anyway, all this is way complicated. Default standard should be "can any bastard tag me from here?", with minor deviations based on "Can I trust this bastard"? For the older amongst us that answer is more often "No, the bastard will cut me up".

BTW, does the "close quotes" come afore or after the question mark?

[MSTRS]

Anyway, all this is way complicated. Default standard should be "can any bastard tag me from here?", with minor deviations based on "Can I trust this bastard"? For the older amongst us that answer is more often "No, the bastard will cut me up".

BTW, does the "close quotes" come afore or after the question mark?

The BDOTGNZA would like to state for the record that if the encapsulated 'statement' is a question in its own right, then ? comes before closing the quote.
However the first letter of the first word should normally be a capital...

[yungatart]

All KB groups rides end up races. Without exception.

Please join us for a ride in the lovely HB. I'm sure we can change your perception of group rides?
Go on, you know you want to :msn-wink:

[Kickaha]

Please join us for a ride in the lovely HB. I'm sure we can change your perception of group rides?
Go on, you know you want to :msn-wink:

She's just saying that because she wants to race you :yes:

[yungatart]

She's just saying that because she wants to race you :yes:

Me??? Race???

You've got me mixed up with someone who can actually ride, rather than drop it at the bottom of the driveway :eek5:

[jrandom]

And I can say the opposite with equal conviction. Which really does point out the futility of attempting to argue an opinion on an Internet forum.

You know what the real problem is?

Most Wellington bikers are complete twats.

(I don't mean you, Jim.)

It really is a localised epidemic. The prevailing attitude throughout the rest of the country is quite different.

[Ocean1]

Most Wellington bikers are complete twats.

Suppose finess from trolls is some sort of generic oxymoron...

[jrandom]

Suppose finess from trolls is some sort of generic oxymoron...

That'd be 'finesse'. With an 'e'.

'strue though!

There's plenty of Grumpy Old Men to offset the twats, of course.

:hug:

[Ocean1]

There's plenty of Grumpy Old Men to offset the twats, of course.

I like to practice both, on alternate days.

[pritch]

I like to practice both, on alternate days.

It can all be done in one: grumpy old twat.
(Don't ask me how I know...) :whistle:

[Ocean1]

It can all be done in one: grumpy old twat.
(Don't ask me how I know...) :whistle:

We've met?

[Bonez]

It can all be done in one: grumpy old twat.
(Don't ask me how I know...) :whistle:I prefer grumpy twat.

[Forest]

The BDOTGNZA would like to state for the record that if the encapsulated 'statement' is a question in its own right, then ? comes before closing the quote.
However the first letter of the first word should normally be a capital...

Yes. Question marks and exclamation marks are always placed inside or outside quoted material on the basis of logic.

The confusion comes from full-stops and commas - which can be placed either inside or outside the closing quotation mark (depending on which style you prefer).

[outlawtorn]

Well that was a big let down.. another straggered formation post.

When I was reading about how shocked your mates from SA were about our group rides, I was expecting a little bit more than just how poorly NZ'ers ride staggered. They do heaps more stupid shit than that when I go on group rides!

- Corner markers getting bored and just taking off, causing half the group to get lost.

- Dragging away from lights

- Passing with no indication what-so-ever, alot of the time in the same lane, either side depending on how much room there is at the time.

- Rarely is a TEC assigned, and most of the time the slowest rider becomes the TEC

- Some people try to stay in formation even round corners, that's always a laugh

- People not staying in staggered formation and it becomes staggered, staggered formation. With some people following directly behind, some people in the right position, and some just sitting in the road

---

Following too closely during staggered formation has been done.. move onto something else.

Last years Westpac was an eye opener with people passing people on one wheel through groups of bikes..
I was being polite, and sorry that I was 'only' griping about staggerred riding being dangerous......just thought that may have been enough....

[Jantar]

All KB groups rides end up races. Without exception.


Strange: Of all the KB group rides I've been on not a single one turned into a race. Maybe you perceive it as a race, but no-one else other than yourself is trying to be faster than any other rider?

[outlawtorn]

Strange: Of all the KB group rides I've been on not a single one turned into a race. Maybe you perceive it as a race, but no-one else other than yourself is trying to be faster than any other rider?

I second that, never seen or felt like any kind of race was going down....

[PrincessBandit]

Think it's been said earlier on (my eyes are watering after wading through all the pages in this thread) that a lot depends on what the expectation of those on the group ride are. Are there "rules" agreed upon before heading off e.g. no overtaking the ride leader etc., or is it a general "free for all" with eveyone just jumping in the saddle and taking off to a pre arranged destination etc.
People have posted about the virtues of riding with others you know and this might be the key for some. Riding with unknowns is a bit like trying to dance with a complete stranger - neither of you really knows quite what the other one is up to, and the risks are arguably higher than on the dance floor! When you know the riding style of those in your group you shirley will ride more as a homogenous (yeah yeah homogenous) unit instead of a bunch of highly unpredicatable individuals.

[NighthawkNZ]

Strange: Of all the KB group rides I've been on not a single one turned into a race. Maybe you perceive it as a race, but no-one else other than yourself is trying to be faster than any other rider?


It seems to be a north Island thing...

[98tls]

Think it's been said earlier on (my eyes are watering after wading through all the pages in this thread) that a lot depends on what the expectation of those on the group ride are. Are there "rules" agreed upon before heading off e.g. no overtaking the ride leader etc., or is it a general "free for all" with eveyone just jumping in the saddle and taking off to a pre arranged destination etc.
People have posted about the virtues of riding with others you know and this might be the key for some. Riding with unknowns is a bit like trying to dance with a complete stranger - neither of you really knows quite what the other one is up to, and the risks are arguably higher than on the dance floor! When you know the riding style of those in your group you shirley will ride more as a homogenous (yeah yeah homogenous) unit instead of a bunch of highly unpredicatable individuals. Good post PB,i to have gone back through this whole thread and ended up back here (obviously)Other than say a funeral ride i still cant work out why anyone would want to ride a motorcycle in some kind of close knit group,staggered,upside down or any other formation someone cares to suggest as following some rule:confused:pre arranged destinations are logical if heading away with mates but following someone whilst maintaining a specified distance and position on the road seems to defy everything ive always loved about motorcycles,mind you i guess times are a changin,when next i hit the road with other motorcyclists best i pack a sturdy tape measure on the off chance i stray.:niceone

[James Deuce]

Strange: Of all the KB group rides I've been on not a single one turned into a race. Maybe you perceive it as a race, but no-one else other than yourself is trying to be faster than any other rider?

Yeah. It's all my fault. That's the problem with discussing different groups of riders, from different parts of the country on an Internet forum. Your experience of KB rides is obviously vastly different to mine. I enjoy riding with Mike Angell and his wife, along with Mooch and his wife. Predictable and skilled, completely unlike the rest of the Wellington KB crowd.

I've been overtaken on both sides on the way into a corner by kbers on a Wednesday "Cruisy" ride. I'm not supposed to complain about it though. I'm a pussy apparently. I went on a couple of the Thursday rides a few years ago. Not my cup of tea.

Of all the KB rides I've been on there are 4 that didn't involve crashes, at least that I was aware of.

One of my biggest bugbears is acouple of the guys who are apparently regarded as good riders who insist on traveling 3cms off your rear tyre. If you ask them to politely desist you get a lecture that either revolves around racing or the length of time they've been riding, as if that makes them immune to the vagaries of riding on the road.

[Hitcher]

Most Wellington bikers are complete twats.

One prefers the term "pretentious pudenda".

[98tls]

Yeah. It's all my fault. That's the problem with discussing different groups of riders, from different parts of the country on an Internet forum. Your experience of KB rides is obviously vastly different to mine. I enjoy riding with Mike Angell and his wife, along with Mooch and his wife. Predictable and skilled, completely unlike the rest of the Wellington KB crowd.

I've been overtaken on both sides on the way into a corner by kbers on a Wednesday "Cruisy" ride. I'm not supposed to complain about it though. I'm a pussy apparently. I went on a couple of the Thursday rides a few years ago. Not my cup of tea.

Of all the KB rides I've been on there are 4 that didn't involve crashes, at least that I was aware of.

One of my biggest bugbears is acouple of the guys who are apparently regarded as good riders who insist on traveling 3cms off your rear tyre. If you ask them to politely desist you get a lecture that either revolves around racing or the length of time they've been riding, as if that makes them immune to the vagaries of riding on the road. Yep i hear that,sadly there "a couple of guys" who are yet to learn a painful lesson,saddest part is there more than likely to fuck up someone elses day when they do.:angry:

[Lissa]

I havent read the whole thread as I dont have the time, but would like to give my thoughts on Riding in Groups, namely KB groups as they are the only ones I have been on.

To me biking is something I enjoy as long as I cruise at my own pace, enjoy the scenery and not having to worry if I am holding someone up. I have no interest in speeding, or to corner as fast as I can, or get my knee down - this is not enjoyment to me.

I have been on rides were I have been over taken sometimes by a number of people all at once, even though I was going the road limit. I am not blaming these people, it was my fault, I was the one who decided to go on a ride with people with faster bikes and strangers.

I dont like being over taken by large groups, especially when it is done so fast I had no idea it was about to happen and especially on corners, or in places that I think put me at risk as well. I am not an inexperienced rider, I have complete faith in my own riding ability, it is other people that I do not have faith in. Maybe I am being a baby, but after having two friends die on Group Rides, I really dont want to do another big group ride again. I will continue to just ride with my friends.

[NighthawkNZ]

One of my biggest bugbears is acouple of the guys who are apparently regarded as good riders who insist on traveling 3cms off your rear tyre. If you ask them to politely desist you get a lecture that either revolves around racing or the length of time they've been riding, as if that makes them immune to the vagaries of riding on the road.


Ok I agree with you here, thats bad, if they did that to me and continued... I would give them a slap and then simply not ride with wankers like that...

Racing theories and road theories are two different things... what is good for the race track can be deadly for the road... and they need to be reminded they are not on a track, and the need to pull their wooly heads in...

[AlBundy]

If you can point out any "double standards" (from me) on display in this thread, I'll STFU for good.

It's not what you've said. It's what you've not said...

[Katman]

Fuck me, so now I get in trouble for opening my mouth and for keeping it shut.

:msn-wink:

[Ixion]

It doesn't say it anywhere because it says it everywhere !

[AlBundy]

Fuck me, so now I get in trouble for opening my mouth and for keeping it shut.

:msn-wink:

Yeah but it's where you are constantly harping on that's the point.

Suddenly there's a blatant dangerous mentality posted here and you say nothing....

If you're gonna be a safety nazi, at least be consitent...

[Katman]

Yeah but it's where you are constantly harping on that's the point.

Suddenly there's a blatant dangerous mentality posted here and you say nothing....

If you're gonna be a safety nazi, at least be consitent...

Maybe you missed post #12.

[AlBundy]

And you think there's nothing wrong with a group mentality of post #18?

I'm sorry, you pick on one mans life report about riding, then apparently miss something which is utterly more dangerous....

Something is amiss with that...

[PrincessBandit]

And you think there's nothing wrong with a group mentality of post #18?

I'm sorry, you pick on one mans life report about riding, then apparently miss something which is utterly more dangerous....

Something is amiss with that...

Perhaps because there were plenty of other people commenting on it Katman was seeing what the lie of the land was. Besides, "Ixion" and "talking shit" don't usually go together, so if what Ixion has posted works safely for him then why should someone else object? You seem like a hard to please person or are you jumping on the Katman bandwagon? He won't give a toss either way.

[Finn]

About 2 years ago when I first graced KB with my presence, I was invited on a group ride. We met at Kopu Tavern and I was told to ride staggered. I thought this was a bit of a strange request given it was only 10 in the morning but went along with it and downed several whiskeys.

[AlBundy]

Perhaps because there were plenty of other people commenting on it Katman was seeing what the lie of the land was. You seem like a hard to please person or are you jumping on the Katman bandwagon? He won't give a toss either way.


Actually, since Katman is like that to everyone else, regardless of context, I'll treat him the same as he does others.

If he's to preach, he should do it for everyone, regardless of where the thread/post is....

I think he's a biased two-face...

[Katman]

I think he's a biased two-face...



Mate, I've been called some funny shit on here but that one is almost worth changing my signature for.

[Ixion]

And you think there's nothing wrong with a group mentality of post #18?

I'm sorry, you pick on one mans life report about riding, then apparently miss something which is utterly more dangerous....

Something is amiss with that...

Worked for them back in the day. Amazing how people got out of the way! No idea what current practice is in such groups, like I said it was a lot of years ago.

But I don't think you need worry , I very much doubt you will ever be part of such a convoy.

Actually, I doubt many riders nowadays could, the discipline required is very high.Not advocating, it just saying.

[pritch]

It seems to be a north Island thing...

There's not enough riders in the South Island to form anything that could reasonably described as a group.

Well, when I've passed through there are very few in evidence.
I might come and have another look over the summer, another Akaroa fish n' chips lunch beckons...

[NighthawkNZ]

There's not enough riders in the South Island to form anything that could reasonably described as a group.

Well, when I've passed through there are very few in evidence.
I might come and have another look over the summer, another Akaroa fish n' chips lunch beckons...

That's cause we didn't tell you where all the good rides are... :lol:

I actually prefer if riding in a group to be in a group of 4 or 5, any larger then split the group in to 2 or 3 small groups

[toycollector10]

What about the 30 riders up in each others tailpipes in the Lyttelton Tunnel about three weeks ago. That was a really tight bunch. If one of them up front had gone down it would have been one mother of a fireball in there...

:doh:
:eek:

[NighthawkNZ]

it would have been one mother of a fireball in there...

:doh:
:eek:

just make sure you camera is ready to get the fireball...

[scumdog]

There's not enough riders in the South Island to form anything that could reasonably described as a group.

Well, when I've passed through there are very few in evidence.
I might come and have another look over the summer, another Akaroa fish n' chips lunch beckons...

The thing is, we saw you coming and went into hiding.

[Kiwibacon]

Yes staggered is the only way to go in a large group. :whistle:(even i have failed to do it) that is until u hit the rimmers:Oops::eek5:. smaller groups u can discuss how u gonna ride B4 u start. I even ride "staggered when only 2 bikes" Cos i dont wanna run over the poor guy/ girl infront on my Low rider Tractor.:Oops: LOL
What i mean is IF U WANT A STROP TELL THE OTHER RIDERS ... IF U WANT A CRUISE TELL THE OTHER RIDERS.... IF U WANT A MIX OF BOTH TELL THE OTHER RIDERS. . Usualy your mates kno how u ride and ride accordingly.

[Hitcher]

Gahh! Thud.

[jrandom]

Gahh! Thud.

I bet he voted.

[Hitcher]

Gasp. Wheeze.

[pritch]

The thing is, we saw you coming and went into hiding.

Ahhh but I spotted the fluffy dice hanging off your mirror before you disappeared :devil2: