Newbie helmet question [Archive]

wbks

11th November 2008, 16:23

Money is an issue so I cant buy a 400-500+ helmet right now but I've got two helmets to choose from which i already own. One is a Nolan which is damn tight on me and the other is a "cms"? Which is a tad on the loose side. The Nolan isn't horribly tight but it sits about 5mm away from my chin which I thought may be a safety hazard? as in more of a hazard than a loos(ish) helmet?

Jantar

11th November 2008, 16:35

A good helmet is like a good woman. Tight is good, loose is not so good. :bleh:

A helmet should be tight enough that it doesn't come off or move around even with the straps undone. If you are able to move the helmet on your head then it is far too loose.

wbks

11th November 2008, 16:41

so it doesnt matter that the front almost touches my chin?

motorbyclist

11th November 2008, 16:45

should have a snug fit - if your spares don't offer that then how much is your head worth?

all my helmets have generally been in the $150-300 range and worked just fine when they needed to:D - I recommend the HJC helmets if you're on a budget and can't afford to have $900 ruined

the protection offered by a more expensive helmet is marginal - though the pricier ones are generally lighter and quieter, and i'm not a fan of the quality of the one cms helmet i had for $100 back on my learners

Big Dog

11th November 2008, 16:49

so it doesnt matter that the front almost touches my chin?

It gets a little irritating, it is not bad though.

Being closer to your chin just changes the variable.

Further the bar gets from your chin the more effectively your visor clears and the better the bar deals with small impacts (birdstrike / branches etc) but the less stable your helmet is in the wind and the less effective it is at dealing with a road strike.

I am quite sure this has not answered your question fully.
In short, fitness for purpose. Chose the best helmet with the resources available.

Nolan is a better helmet assuming neither has been dropped or otherwise impacted. As is the fitment you have described.
(Don't even get me started on why you should never own / use a second hand helmet)

jerm

11th November 2008, 16:51

the thread at the top of the gear page has quite a good resource in it

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=75796

wbks

11th November 2008, 16:53

Yea well I plan on getting a better hjc helmet or something soon but I don't have the money right now. As for the expensive helmets, are more expensive brands like agv and shoei a lot more safe or just light and quiet?

wbks

11th November 2008, 17:01

It gets a little irritating, it is not bad though.

Being closer to your chin just changes the variable.

Further the bar gets from your chin the more effectively your visor clears and the better the bar deals with small impacts (birdstrike / branches etc) but the less stable your helmet is in the wind and the less effective it is at dealing with a road strike.

I am quite sure this has not answered your question fully.
In short, fitness for purpose. Chose the best helmet with the resources available.

Nolan is a better helmet assuming neither has been dropped or otherwise impacted. As is the fitment you have described.
(Don't even get me started on why you should never own / use a second hand helmet)Maybe I'm a little dumb right now but I don't quite get what you're saying. So the further your chin is from the helmet the better it deals with small hits but is less stable in the wind and wont cope as well in a serious hit? As for condition. One has been for sure dropped on the ground from my tank(the cms helmet) and the other seems to be a little thin on cushion at the front which is a uncomfortable thing more than a safety hazard from what I think but otherwise doesn't have any deep scratches or drop marks.

Big Dog

11th November 2008, 18:46

Maybe I'm a little dumb right now but I don't quite get what you're saying. So the further your chin is from the helmet the better it deals with small hits but is less stable in the wind and wont cope as well in a serious hit? As for condition. One has been for sure dropped on the ground from my tank(the cms helmet) and the other seems to be a little thin on cushion at the front which is a uncomfortable thing more than a safety hazard from what I think but otherwise doesn't have any deep scratches or drop marks.
If you read here: http://www.saskma.com/content/view/20/61/ you will find that a dropped helmet has had some of the polystyrene has been crushed and has not returned to normal shape. Therefore the crushing that is designed to cushion is not available.

A short experiment to demonstrate to yourself:

1 Take your hand and place it 10 cm from your forehead.
2 Slap your hand hard enough for it to contact your head.
3 put your hand on your forehead
4 Slap it equally hard.
5 Take your hand away and slap your forehead as a control.

Unless you have an abnormally hard head or you were to chicken to hit yourself hard enough (Gee isn't science fun?) you should note the following.

On the first attempt there was a slightly dizzy feeling afterwards.
The slightly dizzy feeling is a mild concussion. (You might have to wait a second or two... lol yes someone reading over my shoulder just tried it)

On the second attempt you should note that you don't feel that dizzy feeling.

On the control you should find that the slap hurt but not as much.

I don't know about you but my conclusion is that a dropped helmet protects your head less than no helmet.

Gizzit

11th November 2008, 19:00

Hi mate,
There are a few good cheapies around. They may not be top quality the likes of Shoei, Arai, etc, but they meet the required safety standard, so can be relied on to look after you in the event of a crash.

Check out dealers, or you can see a few on TradeMe that I think are "ok" in the cheap end of the market.
What is most important, assuming they meet the safety standards, ... is fit! If it doesn't fit you right .... it could be a $1500 helmet, and it's not going to do it's job for you.

Check out these maybe ........

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Helmets-clothing-footwear/Helmets/auction-186186762.htm

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Helmets-clothing-footwear/Helmets/auction-186391685.htm

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Helmets-clothing-footwear/Helmets/auction-186413994.htm

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Helmets-clothing-footwear/Helmets/auction-186467377.htm

All of these are "safe" helmets, well made, and will do the job ..... and they don't cost an arm and a leg.

I prefer the HJC models and the FFM - M9.
You do need to try them on though. Everyone has a different shape head, and it's a matter of finding one that is most comfortable for you. It has to be!!
Good luck with your choice.
Cheers,
Grant.

wbks

11th November 2008, 20:38

hayd3n

11th November 2008, 21:01

I'll check those out. Just took the nolan for a ride and couldn't hear my 250 at 15,000 in 5th over all the damn wind noise, along with the visor fogging up every breath unless i had it up...Which hurts your eyes at speed with all the damn bugs haha

try breathing with your top lip over your bottom lip it sounds weird but it works and no one can see it either
or relax more my m8 who pilions sometimes always has fog lol

wbks

11th November 2008, 21:06

I think its probably just how close the visor is to me...Or i need some anti fog wipes. I wasn't breathing any different to normal. Doesn't happen to me with the other lid. Think I might just buy a cheap HJC

Jantar

11th November 2008, 21:16

I'll check those out. Just took the nolan for a ride and couldn't hear my 250 at 15,000 in 5th over all the damn wind noise, along with the visor fogging up every breath unless i had it up...Which hurts your eyes at speed with all the damn bugs haha

What model Nolan is it? I believe that all modern Nolans come with the pinlock anti fog as standard.

wbks

11th November 2008, 21:22

N37? I think I saw one on trademe that looked exactly like it so I'll assume that's what it is.

Jantar

11th November 2008, 21:52

N37? I think I saw one on trademe that looked exactly like it so I'll assume that's what it is.

That helmet has to be 15 years old. Toss it and replace asap.

Swoop

11th November 2008, 21:58

...along with the visor fogging up every breath unless i had it up...
Talk to the sales person about a "breath guard". This fits inside the helmet at the bottom of the visor and helps keep exhaled air away fron the visor.
Well worth getting one when you get your helmet.

Stampy

12th November 2008, 05:32

I'll check those out. Just took the nolan for a ride and couldn't hear my 250 at 15,000 in 5th over all the damn wind noise, along with the visor fogging up every breath unless i had it up...Which hurts your eyes at speed with all the damn bugs haha

Try an Arai Viper GT, Like having a 747 flying 2 inches above your head!!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

slimjim

12th November 2008, 07:48

and be aware too..that some lower priced helmets have a higher impact than some of those bloody overpriced ones..graphics add a fucking huge price to a hat..but its not making it any better than a safety standard

vifferman

12th November 2008, 08:26

I don't know about you but my conclusion is that a dropped helmet protects your head less than no helmet.
That's not true, nor is your statement that the liner in a dropped helmet has been wrecked. If dropped far enough and heavily enough, the shell might be compromised, but this should in no way affect the liner, unless there was something heavy like a head in it.
This recent clip (posted elsewhere on KB?) from Jay Leno's Garage (http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=283819) debunks the myth that a dropped helmet is necessarily no good.

Getting back to wbks's search for a helmet: the main thing is the helmet should fit you well. While the "$50 helmet for a $50 head" thing is basically fear-mongering, to some extent you get what you pay for, and more expensive helmets will generally be better finished, have better features, etc. But they won't necessarily protect you any better (especially if they don't fit well!) And don't worry about wind noise - you should be wearing
earplugs on the open road anyway. Wearing even a 'quiet' helmet for more than 15 minutes at open-road speeds will subject you to potential hearing loss due to the high-frequency noise of wind rushing around the helmet.

Big Dog

12th November 2008, 15:26

That's not true, nor is your statement that the liner in a dropped helmet has been wrecked. If dropped far enough and heavily enough, the shell might be compromised, but this should in no way affect the liner, unless there was something heavy like a head in it.
This recent clip (posted elsewhere on KB?) from Jay Leno's Garage (http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=283819) debunks the myth that a dropped helmet is necessarily no good.

Getting back to wbks's search for a helmet: the main thing is the helmet should fit you well. While the "$50 helmet for a $50 head" thing is basically fear-mongering, to some extent you get what you pay for, and more expensive helmets will generally be better finished, have better features, etc. But they won't necessarily protect you any better (especially if they don't fit well!) And don't worry about wind noise - you should be wearing
earplugs on the open road anyway. Wearing even a 'quiet' helmet for more than 15 minutes at open-road speeds will subject you to potential hearing loss due to the high-frequency noise of wind rushing around the helmet.

Personal experience tells me one should never skimp on head protection.
Also I have cut open a helmet (to stop someone fishing my old helmet out of the rubbish). The EPS was approximately 50% crushed and was also cracked form a less than 2m drop while empty.
If in doubt throw it out.

I will concede that with a "headform" inside the helmet the crushing is more substantial, however reduced capacity is reduced capacity.
With fibreglass there was usually delamination as a dead give away. With modern polycarbonate shells there may not even be a discolouration or scratch.

vifferman

12th November 2008, 15:36

Personal experience tells me one should never skimp on head protection.
Indeed not.

Also I have cut open a helmet (to stop someone fishing my old helmet out of the rubbish). The EPS was approximately 50% crushed and was also cracked form a less than 2m drop while empty.
If in doubt throw it out.
Yes, that's a good axiom. However, my point was that just because a helmet has been dropped, that doesn't mean it is definitely trashed, and it's almost scurrilous to scare noobies or ignorant people into fearing for their life and throwing away what might be a perfectly serviceable helmet. If nothing has squished the foam (and if the helmet's empty, there's absolutely no reason for the foam to be compromised), then a careful examination of the shell will determine the integrity or otherwise of the shell.
Older helmets made of fibreglass-reinforced plastic may well degrade just through a drop from your seat, or the action of UV or chemicals. However, injection-moulded plastic helmets and modern helmets made of multiple reinforcing fibres (Aramid, carbon, glass, kevlar, etc) are much more resistant.
A simple test is to look for any chips in the external shell. If the chip isn't deep, and when you press with your thumb on it, it doesn't deflect the shell, then it's fine, and certainly MUCH better than no helmet at all.
If a drop from a bike seat destroys a helmet, then it doesn't say much for the helmet's ability to protect your head in a crash, does it?

Big Dog

12th November 2008, 16:21

Indeed not.

Yes, that's a good axiom. However, my point was that just because a helmet has been dropped, that doesn't mean it is definitely trashed, and it's almost scurrilous to scare noobies or ignorant people into fearing for their life and throwing away what might be a perfectly serviceable helmet. If nothing has squished the foam (and if the helmet's empty, there's absolutely no reason for the foam to be compromised), then a careful examination of the shell will determine the integrity or otherwise of the shell.
Older helmets made of fibreglass-reinforced plastic may well degrade just through a drop from your seat, or the action of UV or chemicals. However, injection-moulded plastic helmets and modern helmets made of multiple reinforcing fibres (Aramid, carbon, glass, kevlar, etc) are much more resistant.
A simple test is to look for any chips in the external shell. If the chip isn't deep, and when you press with your thumb on it, it doesn't deflect the shell, then it's fine, and certainly MUCH better than no helmet at all.
If a drop from a bike seat destroys a helmet, then it doesn't say much for the helmet's ability to protect your head in a crash, does it?

All relative really.
If a helmet fell off my seat I would be unlikely to throw it out given the tests you have outlined above.
My point was more about second hand helmets, you have no idea wether when your mate says it has only been dropped once he means it had a head in it, or maybe it was out the window of an appartment?

But if you have been in control of a helmet for it's entire service life you are in a position to decide that. If you have only had it since jimbo down the pub swapped you for a beer chances are your decisions will be at the very least not based in fact.

Fun fact: I have seen a helmet that faceplanted a racetrack at 200ish that could have passed for new with a new visor.

Gizzit

12th November 2008, 16:23

All excellent stuff above .. but what do you recommend for the guy? He is wanting opinion on helmets worth looking at in his price range.

Any opinions on .... say ... FFM, HJC, OXFORD, or others in the cheaper end of the market that may meet his budget ?
...... ;)

Big Dog

12th November 2008, 16:48

Gizzit

12th November 2008, 17:32

Change of range for HJC means there are some pretty awesome deals on HJC.
I don't recommend CAN but they are cheap. Stump up the other 50 for a new season HJC or shop around for an older model.
From about $100 full face in some shops.

Yes thats what I was thinking. There are some "good" cheap helmets out there. And yes ..... although I have never heard any actual user reports of CAN helmets, from examining them ... they would be a very last resort! He should be able to get a pretty good first helmet for between $150 - $250 I was thinking ...

NordieBoy

12th November 2008, 18:33

The Zeus range have some pretty good prices as well for full face/flip front/adventure styles.

motorbyclist

12th November 2008, 18:41

dropped/crashed helmet is better than no helmet for abrasion resistance but not much more

seriously, just go buy a cheap helmet that fits. should be snug and remember they lossen up ver time as you "wear them in"

myself i currently use an HJC CL-14. they stopped making them a while ago but the replacement looks just as good. i tried an hjc cl-12 and thought it a bit louder than the cl14, but it was cheaper too.

'field testing' shows they work just as wel as a shoei or arai but you can buy four HJC for the cost of one shoei:yes:

and if they tend to fog up, try opening the visor just the slightest of cracks to get a bit of air flow and she'll be sweet

madbikeboy

13th November 2008, 07:54

Here is my $0.02.

I've had a few concussions, one serious enough that I wasn't allowed to drive for a while.

Talking to the health professionals who worked on me during the recuperation period gave me a different perspective on this.

What you are trying to achieve by buying a good helmet is to increase the time that your brain decelerates. In other words, the slower that your brain moves around, the more chance you have of not dying. More expensive helmets use double or even triple layers of foam inside to slow the impact, and the more expensive composite helmets also use this principle on the shell.

I use the top of the line HJC Carbon jobbie, or I have a top of the line Shoei. I also like Arai. I wouldn't use a cheap lid, there's too much at stake. The SHARP tests can arguably be described as flawed - they use measures that a lot of people don't agree on (for example using the side of the lid as the measurement point when most impact happens to the top, front, or back - this makes sense intuitively, try falling onto your side and see what happens (assuming you have shoulders)). What is notable is the impacts some of the racers have sustained over the years and survived wearing high end helmets.

Fit is key, even a good helmet won't save you if it's already fallen off.

wbks

13th November 2008, 09:08

so you're saying higher priced helmets are better as oposed to the view that all reasonably priced helmets like HJC cheap ones will do the job just as well but without the features?

madbikeboy

13th November 2008, 09:14

so you're saying higher priced helmets are better as oposed to the view that all reasonably priced helmets like HJC cheap ones will do the job just as well but without the features?

Yes. I run the top of the line HJC Carbon HQ-1 because the construction is good, I wouldn't use the next one down. I think it was a cheap lid at about $900 ish.

I'd chose a moderately featured lid that was better constructed over a cheaply constructed lid with all the features including airconditioning and built in scalp massager.

Do the research on the difference between lids - notibly, look at Arai and Shoei.

Buy a solid colour that stands out - bright red is better than black for example.

NordieBoy

13th November 2008, 13:21

I really like the construction and features of my Zeus 2100b adventure helmet.

Performance wise I'd stack it up against the Arai/Shoei/HJC any day.

It was $195.
How much is the Arai?

Gizzit

13th November 2008, 13:30

I really like the construction and features of my Zeus 2100b adventure helmet.

Performance wise I'd stack it up against the Arai/Shoei/HJC any day.

It was $195.
How much is the Arai?

Yup ..... I'd go along with you there Nordie. There ARE cheap helmets that are safe. I think the equivalent of your Zeus helmet, in Arai or Shoei would be around $800 at a guess.
The man asking the question here, can't afford a Shoei, Arai, etc ....
Zeus probably makes something good in his price range .... as do another outfit, .. Nitro.

turtleman

13th November 2008, 13:47

I have a Zeus Flip-front helmet. It fit's well and is comfortable. It is however, very noisy. It has broken the visor round the hinge piece, so the visor (not the flipup bit, just the visor) won't stay up when partially opened.
The thread is stripped out on one side of the flip-up bit, where it attaches to the side of the helmet. Not the screw, but the internal thread in the helmet.
It's not even a year old yet! :angry2:

Basically, it's one step above crap. I wouldn't buy another one. :no:

NordieBoy

13th November 2008, 15:45

Winston001

15th November 2008, 01:51

so it doesnt matter that the front almost touches my chin?

Not in my opinion - in fact it can be good.

I wear glasses because the old number one eyeball (as Ixion calls it) isn't quite so good these days. I find that helmet and bike vibration at decent road speeds cause my glasses to vibrate slightly = blurred vision.

So I now have a small block of polystyrene taped inside my helmet at chin level. It keeps the front of the helmet well away from my face but still means the helmet presses against the chin at road speeds. It isn't uncomfortable and the blurring effect has completely disappeared.

FFM flip-up. Works for me.

motorbyclist

15th November 2008, 10:42

So I now have a small block of polystyrene taped inside my helmet at chin level. It keeps the front of the helmet well away from my face but still means the helmet presses against the chin at road speeds. It isn't uncomfortable and the blurring effect has completely disappeared.

what if you hit the ground face first? wouldn't that risk dislocating your jaw?

i doubt it, but i'm sure there's some merit to the argument

Winston001

15th November 2008, 12:45

what if you hit the ground face first? wouldn't that risk dislocating your jaw?

i doubt it, but i'm sure there's some merit to the argument

Hadn't thought about that but maybe dense foam would be better - still the block needs to be solid enough to transmit vibration so it is absorbed and cancelled. Polysytrene should compress and partly absorb any shock. Not an experiment I'm keen to try. :D

Gizzit

15th November 2008, 19:19

what if you hit the ground face first? wouldn't that risk dislocating your jaw?

i doubt it, but i'm sure there's some merit to the argument

Ride backwards ..... problem solved !! :whistle: :wacko:

mctshirt

27th November 2008, 06:11

So any more ideas for a reasonably priced helmet? I'm tossing up between FFM and HJC around the $200 mark - all I want is washable liners, breath guard and a reduction in noise but the biggest issue is finding one that fits good after trying all sorts on - it appears I'm somewhere between medium and small.

NordieBoy

27th November 2008, 07:22

Have you tried the Zeus range?

wbks

27th November 2008, 10:23

Yea, got one ordered in along with a kbc. Gona try them on some time this week

mctshirt

30th November 2008, 06:59

I was out doing "dork walking round a motorcycle shop wearing a helmet indoors" impersonation again yeasterday. I discovered 2 things:

1. V-can are crap - the chin air vent fell to bits while holding the helmet listening to the assistant tell me how his partner had one and they were ok - we were both a little embarrased

2. Takachi and FFM are the same! The only difference between a Takachi T36 and an FFM Tour Pro II was the stickers and graphics - exactly the same lining, same visor (including sticker), same shape from the same mould, same weight, same D-fastener, same everything but price - plain Tourpro $130 - $150 (at different shops) and Takachi with graphics around $160 from memory.

I wonder what other brands come out of the Arai and Shoei factories that are dismissed as inferior Chinese crap?

davereid

30th November 2008, 09:48

The cheaper helmets seem to provide just as much protection as the more expensive ones, so my suggestion would be buy an FFM or similar, and use the loot you save to get some other protective gear.

Helmets are only part of the picture - get a decent pair of gloves, jacket, pants and boots as well.

NordieBoy

30th November 2008, 11:07

Helmets are only part of the picture - get a decent pair of gloves, jacket, pants and boots as well.

And a bike too. Otherwise you'll look retarded.

Gizzit

30th November 2008, 14:00

And a bike too. Otherwise you'll look retarded.

Only if he ventures outside .... :whistle:

wbks

2nd December 2008, 09:48

Just got a brand spanking new 2 piece teknic leather suit for $470 to go with my new helmet :)

prvoke

2nd December 2008, 14:46

Just got a brand spanking new 2 piece teknic leather suit for $470 to go with my new helmet :)

Mind if i ask where, im in the market for some new gears?

On the helmet front i just upgraded from an older model nitro to a Shoei XR-1000. I love it, lighter, quieter, better venting, nicer fit and most of all it looks sick. I got a plain white one to stand out a bit more and will make my own stickers with my vinyl cutter

wbks

2nd December 2008, 16:11

I just got it from some European guy that had bought it along with a new SV and all the other gear and isn't riding now so he's selling it all. Not sure how much stores sell them for but the same looking suit only a one piece with the neck hump was something like 950 in stores...

Winston001

6th December 2008, 23:42

My mates and I all use FFM flip-ups. Wearing glasses having a flip-up is marvellous, and it needs to be a little bit loose to be comfortable around the ears. I suspect my own helmet is too large now as it's quite loose. However you don't want to be uncomfortable.

The FFM is relatively noisy so I wear earplugs - but do that with any helmet anyway. The other trick is to use something like a whisper kit which fills in the space at the bottom of your helmet which is where a lot of noise is generated. Wrapping a scarf which fits up under the edge of the helmet does the job.