Rear wheel skip - why?

[Winston001]

Got a fright the other day. Coming fairly fast into a corner, I braked and may have changed down, not sure. Anyway next thing I notice the bike isn't slowing much and the rear wheel is moving back and forth sideways under me. It felt like it was skipping on and off the road, side to side. Not very far, but certainly out of control.

I have no idea why, its the first time I've ever experienced this. I thought of a tank slapper but that seems to be a front wheel problem and the instability was definitely from the rear.

Went back a day later to check the road. It was clean, no oil on it, the odd very small patch of mud but dry, no tyre marks from the bike that I could see.

It all happened so quickly that I struggle to remember or understand exactly what took place. In fact its taken me a week to even post this, thought I was a gonner. :Oops:

Any ideas?

[AlBundy]

How much front brake and rear brake do you use? I ask 'coz you state you weren't slowing down much during the ordeal.

Which bike was it on? The Ducati or BMW?

It sounds like you maybe went a gear too low and the compression braking was more than you'd normally experience, which semi-locked the rear wheel, causing it to hop and skip, as well as slide...

Some more info would help in determining or advising further...

[owner]

Do you know how to blip the throttle? ie Match the engine speed to the speed of the rear wheel.

If not, you should google "blip throttle" and learn as much about it as possible.

Everytime I change down after
1;pulling the clutch I
2:rev engine( to the revs I think the motor will be at when I put it in the gear)
then 3;select the gear
then 4:let the clutch out

[Forest]

Check the air pressure in your rear tyre.

[James Deuce]

The rear tyre doesn't have a lot of weight on it during heavy braking and engine braking means the wheel is spinning in spite of the drive train not because of it. Any bumps on the road will biff the rear up into the air momentarily and the wheel stops spinning then hits the ground locked. Tyre grip might overcome engine braking and spinning the wheel back up when it touches down. Sometimes not.

This is what those magical slipper clutches or MV's clever partially open inlet valves are about. They reduce the amount of engine braking the tyre has to cope with and help make heavy braking to hard acceleration transitions really smooth. The old school solution used to be to crank the idle up to 3000rpm, but that would cause other issues. After reading about Mick Doohan racing RVF750s in the Suzuka 8 hour I starting using the clutch to remove some or all engine braking, fully releasing it at or before the apex for maximum drive. On my comparatively weedy RC30 it made sense. On a 200hp modern superbike I think you'd fry your clutch quickly, and slipper clutches make it a redundant riding style.

[imne1]

hmmm I do most of my slowing with engine braking - is this not a good thing? does everyone else just use the brakes only?

[Quasievil]

Got a fright the other day. Coming fairly fast into a corner, I braked and may have changed down, not sure. Anyway next thing I notice the bike isn't slowing much and the rear wheel is moving back and forth sideways under me. It felt like it was skipping on and off the road, side to side. Not very far, but certainly out of control.

I have no idea why, its the first time I've ever experienced this. I thought of a tank slapper but that seems to be a front wheel problem and the instability was definitely from the rear.

Went back a day later to check the road. It was clean, no oil on it, the odd very small patch of mud but dry, no tyre marks from the bike that I could see.

It all happened so quickly that I struggle to remember or understand exactly what took place. In fact its taken me a week to even post this, thought I was a gonner. :Oops:

Any ideas?

Suspension set up, Chain tightness, Tyres pressures all soughts can contribute to this, you could have run with it and backed it in mate :Punk:

[Pwalo]

Bit too much front brake. Rear goes light. Change down a gear and the back skips a bit. Nothing unusual, especially on a twin.

Now what you need is traction control like the 1098Rs and then you can bang it down through the gears and get all sorts of banging noises to scare the living daylights out of all and sundry.

[McJim]

I'll set up the camera as promised Winston - I will then film you as you try to replicate the incident and we can see what happened :Pokey:

[The Stranger]

hmmm I do most of my slowing with engine braking - is this not a good thing? does everyone else just use the brakes only?

That sir is a deceptively simple question and can generate pages and pages of debate. Apparently there are those that never use their brakes and this makes them fast, because they are sooo smoooove.
Me, I'm slow and rough - I use my brakes. I use engine braking too, but am more concerned with the appropriate gear and the braking effect is a useful by-product of that process - or an opportunity to lock the rear for the hell of it.

[Bass]

Got a fright the other day. Coming fairly fast into a corner, I braked and may have changed down, not sure. Anyway next thing I notice the bike isn't slowing much and the rear wheel is moving back and forth sideways under me. It felt like it was skipping on and off the road, side to side. Not very far, but certainly out of control.



Any ideas?

Bet you were on the Duc, right?
Been caught out the same way.
I would wager that you changed down too soon under braking. Engine braking on the twin when you do that, is enough to get the back wheel skipping.
I'm with Al and JD on this one

[raftn]

Engine braking, I find on my 955, the engine braking is very effective, coming off the throttle into a corner the bike slows markedly, and i find often there is no need to aply any breaks. On my 675 it's a different story completly, the engine braking is not as noticable and i find myself using the break more often, yet the 675 turns in far easier than any bike i have ever owned, just requires a different riding style.

[imne1]

Ok cool, so I'm prob not doing anything wrong by under-utilising the brakes if I dont need them. I'm still a noob and have experienced the same thing as winston on my lil 250. I've found the applying the rear brake + blip throttle rev matching whilst changing down + easing off rear brake as I let the clutch out ... seems to keep skippy away.

[FruitLooPs]

Nearly binned my 750 doing just that on the port hills after riding my 2-stroke for years I was used to chopping down gears and nearly any rpm. :2thumbsup

Learn quick smart though :whistle:

[Winston001]

Bet you were on the Duc, right?
Been caught out the same way.
I would wager that you changed down too soon under braking. Engine braking on the twin when you do that, is enough to get the back wheel skipping.
I'm with Al and JD on this one

:Punk: Yep, on the Duc.

Hmmm...good thinking. I suspect you are right. I wondered at the time if I was unconsciously pressing on the rear brake and combined with engine braking, that caused a lock-up.

I have no idea what speed I was doing but knowing me and the excellent conditions at the time, probably 130k approaching. The corner is unmarked (quiet country road) but say 70k bend. However none of that is remarkable, done it before on other roads.

Incidentally this all happened before I was in the corner.

Yes I do use engine braking combined with the front brake normally and probably rely on engine braking a lot because it is so effective.

My point is that I've ridden the bike pretty aggressively over 5000k now (a boy with a new toy :innocent:) and if suspension was the problem, it should have shown up by now. If the road surface was uneven, or wet, ok I can understand that. But the sudden loss of control in good conditions is pretty unsettling.

[vifferman]

But the sudden loss of control in good conditions is pretty unsettling.
But were you 'out of control'? Or merely a wee bit unsettled by a strange new feeling?
Take a look at the MotoGP (or any) racers when they're approaching a corner: the back wheel is often off the ground, floating around, yet they're still fully in control, despite looking all out of shape.
It's normal, and when you get used to it, not so unnerving.
I'm no racer, but I've had the back wheel skip around on a bike going into a corner, or spin up/slide going around it, or the front wheel up in the air exiting it. Kinda alarming the first time, but when nothing bad happens as a result, you realise it's OK.

Sorry - didn't mean to get all preachy.

One other thing - it's possible that some minor tweaking of your suspension is required, to reduce rear end lift under hard braking, if it doesn't have quite enough compression damping in the front.

[dipshit]

Yes I do use engine braking combined with the front brake normally and probably rely on engine braking a lot because it is so effective.

But do you blip the throttle on down shifts? It is one of the basics - but i see so many riders that don't do it.

And also giving the rear end a fraction more sag will help the back wheel feel more planted when decelerating.

[Winston001]

But do you blip the throttle on down shifts? It is one of the basics - but i see so many riders that don't do it.

And also giving the rear end a fraction more sag will help the back wheel feel more planted when decelerating.

No, don't blip the throttle ordinarily so I'll try that.

After looking at the Ducati MS forum I'll check the tie-rod between the frame and the swinging arm too. That will lower the back end which is negative for handling but positive for stability. The Ducati ST4 has plenty of weight already on the front - heavy steering compared with other bikes, so lengthening the wheelbase slightly and lowering the back end won't do any harm. I'm going to be a nana for a while.... :eek5:


McJim - I'll set up the camera as promised Winston - I will then film you as you try to replicate the incident and we can see what happened :Pokey:

Mate - the irony is at the time I was thinking about showing you this short piece of road which we could have some fun on provided the local farmers don't call the constubles.....

[sinfull]

back it into that corner bro !!!
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1723995&postcount=1

[madbikeboy]

Okay, a lot of riding is about being smooth, and firm with the controls. What you're describing has been covered well by a few people here - as you you change down, your rear tire is coping with the engine slowing it down, if you let the clutch out hard instead of feeding it out with feel, the back will start to lock, and it will dance a little. This dancing will be worse if your suspension has too little damping, or your chain is tight, or incorrect tire pressures.

The bike isn't out of control, but you need to settle it down before tipping into the corner - if you don't the bike will likely tell you off a little in a pretty physical way.

Practice progressive braking and letting the clutch out (also progresively).

[Winston001]

But were you 'out of control'? Or merely a wee bit unsettled by a strange new feeling?
Take a look at the MotoGP (or any) racers when they're approaching a corner: the back wheel is often off the ground, floating around, yet they're still fully in control, despite looking all out of shape.
It's normal, and when you get used to it, not so unnerving.
I'm no racer, but I've had the back wheel skip around on a bike going into a corner, or spin up/slide going around it, or the front wheel up in the air exiting it. Kinda alarming the first time, but when nothing bad happens as a result, you realise it's OK.


You are probably right but I'm lightyears behind a MotoGP rider. :buggerd: Seen them and simply marvelled at their skill.

Having said that, how many riders have we seen highside on the track? It certainly happens even to the experts.

I'm not likely to try and do this again on purpose so I can't honestly say if the bike was out of control. Another rider might have grinned and won. However for me, it was out of control. A bit like a tank-slapper except from the rear end. It was kind of like the bike was trying to slap the handlebars in a sense, but not actually doing that.

It was all over in possibly 2 - 3 seconds so accurately remembering is hard.

I didn't make it around the corner. :angry2:

[henry]

I used to do this all the time on my GB500 and then one day it decided it had had enough and chucked me into the ditch at the side of the road.

[OutForADuck]

No, don't blip the throttle ordinarily so I'll try that.

After looking at the Ducati MS forum I'll check the tie-rod between the frame and the swinging arm too. That will lower the back end which is negative for handling but positive for stability. The Ducati ST4 has plenty of weight already on the front - heavy steering compared with other bikes, so lengthening the wheelbase slightly and lowering the back end won't do any harm. I'm going to be a nana for a while.... :eek5:



Mate - the irony is at the time I was thinking about showing you this short piece of road which we could have some fun on provided the local farmers don't call the constubles.....


Dude don't worry about anything else.. you have gone down a gear too many without the right technique... its probably never happened before because of a combination of speed, gears gone down, amount of braking and road surface.

NET NET you need to learn how to shift with synchronised engine revs (Blipping the throttle) ST4 from memory does not have a slipper clutch and you would get away with it if it does.. but do you really want the bike to compensate for a skill you have not learnt.

I would guess that you are not getting into the correct gear for exiting the corner if you have not seen this before and are not "blipping" the throttle.

Also back end skipping under breaks? no big deal...just make sure its hooked up before pitching it in.

[vifferman]

I didn't make it around the corner. :angry2:
Oh... :blank:
So it wasn't just a "WTF was that?!? Oh well - it's stopped now... " moment.

[Bass]

It was all over in possibly 2 - 3 seconds so accurately remembering is hard. :

Aint that the truth.
However, if as you say, this was all prior to the corner then it sounds to me like you are doing the slowing down in the right place.
This one, as many others have said, is not really a major and there are ways out of it. The problem is of course that screwing up your entry speed is probably what got you here in the first place and so the stress levels are already pretty high without having to think about what to do next.
Since I took up adventure riding, I find myself provoking this situation and getting the arse out going into the corners in the gravel. (Everyone does; it just takes me longer than most)
Haven't had the balls to deliberately try it on the seal yet - probably never will


I didn't make it around the corner. :angry2:


Any damage?

[Winston001]

Yeah....:lol:

I haven't told the whole story - cos I'm still shaken by it.

I got hurt. Not badly, bike was fine (lots of soft grass), rode home. Later I found the thread about Grub....

My wrists, thumbs and chest are still sore and I'm wondering if my right hand should be x-rayed. It doesn't feel as if it would support me on a bike.

I really appreciate all the posts here and thanks for your advice and experience. I've tried to be dispassionate and concentrate on the logical problem, because other people come off bikes and shrug it off. But I have to say that the two motorcycle deaths last weekend hit home in a serious way.

[Bass]

Yeah....:lol:
But I have to say that the two motorcycle deaths last weekend hit home in a serious way.


You are not alone there.
Can I be so rude as to suggest that if you have any doubts at all, go and get the medical attention. It gets the ACC process activated before it's too late - just in case - y'know what I mean?

[AlBundy]

Yeah....:lol:

I haven't told the whole story - cos I'm still shaken by it.

I got hurt. Not badly, bike was fine (lots of soft grass), rode home. Later I found the thread about Grub....

My wrists, thumbs and chest are still sore and I'm wondering if my right hand should be x-rayed. It doesn't feel as if it would support me on a bike.

I really appreciate all the posts here and thanks for your advice and experience. I've tried to be dispassionate and concentrate on the logical problem, because other people come off bikes and shrug it off. But I have to say that the two motorcycle deaths last weekend hit home in a serious way.

Sorry to hear...

Question... Did you panic brake and look for a place to crash, or did you look through the corner and try and make it through.

Often people are actually going slow enough to make the corner but focus on the outside of the corner and crash, instead of through the corner, where they can easily make it.

It sounds like you are usually a conservative rider and got caught with the change of pace (A lot of us have been there, so know what it's like, hence trying to help out).

[The Pastor]

actually thinking about it when i brake hard on the rear i often hear a lound clanking noise - it sorta sounds liek teh chain is slipping on the sprocket (but i dont think it could?)

this has happend on every bike i've ridden. What causes it and why.

Nothing to do with down change or blipping.

[vifferman]

actually thinking about it when i brake hard on the rear i often hear a lound clanking noise - it sorta sounds liek teh chain is slipping on the sprocket (but i dont think it could?)
Sounds like the rear wheel chattering, but it could be the chain flapping about as the rear wheel locks up.

[The Pastor]

like the wheel is stopped but the front sprocket keeps turning?

[AlBundy]

Could be the chain slapping against the chain slider.

[vifferman]

like the wheel is stopped but the front sprocket keeps turning?
I dunno Eggs Zachary, but I think the back tyre is skidding then gripping and hopping, and meanwhile it's still connected to the engine which is trying to turn it.
Plus the chain has some slack in it, which is usually in the bottom run while the engine's driving the rear wheel. Add some silly business as described above, and possibly a little movement of the swingarm, and the chain could well be having the slack swapping from below the swingarm to above it and flapping around.
Try braking hard with the rear and see if it still does it.

[The Pastor]

i think the bike might "shorten" when you brake hard and causes more slack that normal?

[AlBundy]

The chain is going to be at it's tightest when the front sprocket, swingarm pivot and rear sprocket centres are all in line. Any time the swingarm is in a different position, you'll have a slack chain to varying degrees on either side...

That is why it is advised to adjust the chain with these three lined up. Manufacturers sometimes give a measurement, eg + or - 25mm from static when on the side stand...

On the KTM I have to press the chain towards the swingarm and have a 5mm gap at a certain point, which I assume would correspond to a well set chain when the above three centres are alligned.

Interestingly enough, the new BMW off-road bike, has the front sprocket and swingarm pivot in the same location, so that would take the above scenario out of the equation...

[dipshit]

No, don't blip the throttle ordinarily so I'll try that.

Then that is 80% of your problem. Watch this vid as an example of how *not* to down change. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO8TuakquPQ Note how his bike gets very unsettled going into corners sometimes... and even right at the end at 5:59 the rider loses control completely and goes off the track.

Blipping for down shifts gives you much more control and stability, especially when riding on wet roads or needing to change down when cranked over even just a little bit.



After looking at the Ducati MS forum I'll check the tie-rod between the frame and the swinging arm too. That will lower the back end which is negative for handling but positive for stability. The Ducati ST4 has plenty of weight already on the front - heavy steering compared with other bikes, so lengthening the wheelbase slightly and lowering the back end won't do any harm. I'm going to be a nana for a while.... :eek5:

Giving a bit more rear sag to steady the rear end under brakes isn't so much for weight distribution - it is for stopping the rear shock from topping-out.

When on the brakes (or even just heavy engine braking) the front of the bike dives and the rear end tries to lift. If you haven't got much rear sag to begin with, then the rear shock will top-out and the back end will lose grip and feel skitterish and light. So any rear pre-load you take off will reduce that feeling. Of course you need to fine tune this with not making the rear feel too low and slowing down the steering. I am only talking about small adjustments here. Fine tuning your bike.

[SHELRACING]

I dont know if this will help, but....

when we build our race bikes, sometimes they get a lot of chatter in the
rear end under heavy front braking, just before you enter the corner , as you described.
To eliminate this we adjust the pre-load on the rear shock.

Press down hard on the center of the bike. Usually this will be just before the seat on the petrol tank.

It should have the similar travel in the front suspension as in the rear.

Maybe the back end is solid and the front end moves up and down a bit.
You can adjust the rear shock to make it softer. Then try again, until they both travel a similar distance.

If it seems ok, then check your tyre pressures. On a hot day you need only
one psi less, to make a huge difference to the handling.

Hope your little off, hasn't put you off riding!

[Motu]

This is what those magical slipper clutches or MV's clever partially open inlet valves are about. .

They are a complicated way to go about getting back what they always had with the 2 strokes.Two strokes are the very best bike to ride in any discipline - road racing,MX or trials....engine braking is evil incarnate.

Of course I have now sold my smoker and am back to dealing with stepping out on corner entry.

[puddytat]

hmmm I do most of my slowing with engine braking - is this not a good thing? does everyone else just use the brakes only?

Naaah, generally its quite o.k,but if your thrashin' it all the time & using your engine to do the braking at high revs it'll not help your crankshaft much...
mate o mine with a monster pretty much only uses his engine braking when we're out fanging (he's quick) & his motor is pretty tired already at 30,000 ks....

[Winston001]

Sorry to hear...

Question... Did you panic brake and look for a place to crash, or did you look through the corner and try and make it through.

Often people are actually going slow enough to make the corner but focus on the outside of the corner and crash, instead of through the corner, where they can easily make it.


I think you are spot-on.

Have been chewing this over and thanks for the advice given. I don't know if anyone is interested but here is my memory of events - which probably took 5 seconds at the most.

Approaching corner which leads to a T-intersection so need to scrub off the speed - front brake and change down possibly twice, start to move my body over into the anticipated bend -> WTF? not slowing and almost into corner -> whoa now the bike is skipping from side to side -> panic -> sit up to get control -> yep, good now -> WTF??!!! marker post coming at me very very fast -> I'm in the off-camber gravel on the outside of the corner -> mustn't brake in this stuff, I'll wipe out -> I'm looking at grass, flaxes, and concrete fence posts -> so naturally that's where the bike goes too :( -> try to ride it through -> weaving on the grass -> over the bars and land on my chest and hands.

Stunned, I took my helmet off, something hurts but what about the bike? Its just lying comfortably against the flax having a snooze facing 180 degrees to where we were moments ago. No breaks, scratches, nothing but a bit of grass on the pegs.

I hauled it up while the adrenaline was still flowing and pushed it across to the road. Then I paused to take a deep breath while the bike looked rearing to go, sniffing for more corners, no worries.....

So I now think the bike would have gone around that corner if I hadn't straightened up, and had been disciplined enough to keep looking to where I needed to go.

Nevertheless I'm going to check the rear suspension, chain and anything else tomorrow just to ease my mind that it wasn't a mechanical problem.


Bass - Can I be so rude as to suggest that if you have any doubts at all, go and get the medical attention. It gets the ACC process activated before it's too late - just in case - y'know what I mean?

Excellent point. Need to do that.

[AlBundy]

Sounds like a VERY lucky escape.

It's still interesting that you didn't slow down a lot though.

I'm kind of thinking maybe you rely on your rear/engine/compression braking more than you realise, so when it 'locked up', you didn't have the same amount as you'd normally have. Add to that, the bike behaving horribly, just overwhelms the mind.

As you say, it happened really quick. I'm sure a lot of people would probably find themselves in the same situation... Accidents happen all the time, we can only try and learn from them and try to be better...

[Winston001]

Cheers Al and I suppose my wish is to figure out what went wrong as well as share an experience which might help others.

[AlBundy]

How's the hand? It's worth checking, since the scaphoid is usually the bone that breaks in these types of crashes.
You may not notice much pain but it'll get you in the end if you don't catch it early...

Have you read any books on riding? Some of the things they say are sometimes really obvious but they get one thinking 'Ah yeah, true bro...". Lol...

[Winston001]

How's the hand? It's worth checking, since the scaphoid is usually the bone that breaks in these types of crashes.
You may not notice much pain but it'll get you in the end if you don't catch it early...


Ah thankyou, I was googling late last night trying to find that specific bone. I knew there was one which broke but couldn't determine it from the anatomy sites. So yes, that is my only worry and it is worth checking. Right now my hand is a lot better and just feels like torn ligaments. Having said that, I still cannot turn the key to start my cage.

[scracha]

Blippy throttle prior to downshift is the way to go...but it doesn't work on some bikes (makes the slipper clutchy thingie on the 748 get all upset). Clutch out quick on upshifts, clutch out slooooow on downshifts.

Oh..if it's still hopping about as you're entering the corner then whip in the clutch before tipping it in to settle it all down a little. Coasting around the corner aint a great feeling but it's better than a locked up rear wheel suddenly gripping and spitting you off. Don't release the clutch whilst cranked over either :stupid:

[Ocean1]

Since I took up adventure riding, I find myself provoking this situation and getting the arse out going into the corners in the gravel. (Everyone does; it just takes me longer than most)
Haven't had the balls to deliberately try it on the seal yet - probably never will

Bit of a play on the Buell would clear that right up, it's unavoidable, mandatory Buell behaviour. Anything beyond moderately sedate and the engine braking has the back drifting going into corners. Lots. Very predictabe though, in fact the back suspension is absolutely superb. Which is just as well 'cause blipping the throttle does nothing more than delay the effect half a second.

Worries the guy behind me more than me, but I'm learning things t'other way round from you, dirt first. If the effect is going to be a bit viscious I just ease the clutch out, behaves sorta like a back-to-front brake lever...



Yeah....:lol:

I haven't told the whole story - cos I'm still shaken by it.

I got hurt.

Like the man said, too much entry speed dude. Pull yer head in or else eh?

[dipshit]

Bit of a play on the Buell would clear that right up, it's unavoidable, mandatory Buell behaviour. Anything beyond moderately sedate and the engine braking has the back drifting going into corners. Lots.

Is your idle set to spec or did you turn it way down to sound cool..??

[Ocean1]

Is your idle set to spec or did you turn it way down to sound cool..??

A tad over 1000rpm, where it's supposed to be.

A downshift from anything over about 2500 and you've got drift, unless you feather the clutch. Turning the idle up less than that wouldn't make a blind bit of difference, more would be... contra-indicated.

[discotex]

Glad you're ok Winston. Sounds like you got lucky huh! :eek5:

There's one thing I'm confused about. When you say you weren't slowing much were you using the front brake at all?

I've read your accounts and it really sounds like either you normally use the rear brake and engine braking or you just freaked when the rear locked up and let go of the front.

Does that sound right?

[Winston001]

Glad you're ok Winston. Sounds like you got lucky huh! :eek5:

There's one thing I'm confused about. When you say you weren't slowing much were you using the front brake at all?

I've read your accounts and it really sounds like either you normally use the rear brake and engine braking or you just freaked when the rear locked up and let go of the front.

Does that sound right?

An interesting question. I think as others have said that relying on engine braking has become a habit and probably I'm not using a lot of front brake. I do like the snarl from the bike when shifting down.

Think I let go the front brake when the rear felt unstable so that the front wheel could pull it back into line. Should have pulled the clutch in and kept looking to the vanishing point. Slow down sounds like the best plan. :D

[Headbanger]

Blippy throttle prior to downshift is the way to go...but it doesn't work on some bikes (makes the slipper clutchy thingie on the 748 get all upset). Clutch out quick on upshifts, clutch out slooooow on downshifts.

Oh..if it's still hopping about as you're entering the corner then whip in the clutch before tipping it in to settle it all down a little. Coasting around the corner aint a great feeling but it's better than a locked up rear wheel suddenly gripping and spitting you off. Don't release the clutch whilst cranked over either :stupid:

Depending on bike and situation, You can grab ya handful of clutch to bring her back under control, enter into the corner and click her back into the higher gear, then let out the clutch and your once again in a position to hold your intended line and accelerate out of the corner.

All of course done in less then a half a second.

[Brett]

Sounds exactly like swing arm chatter. rear wheel gets light as weight moves onto front tyre under breaking etc. or a down shift on the gears where the clutch is re-engaged in a sharp manor.

Basically, wheel slides due to engine breaking.

[imne1]

... WTF? not slowing and almost into corner -> whoa now the bike is skipping from side to side -> panic -> sit up to get control -> yep, good now -> WTF??!!! marker post coming at me very very fast ...


sounds like you grabbed a handfull of clutch and didn't let it go in time, possibly a bad old scooter habit? I've done that quite a bit but never at speed as I barely use the clutch. I've found myself hurtling towards an intersection going 'huh?' and needing alot more brakes than normal and then the penny drops 'oh yeah, let the clutch out, it's not a rear brake anymore dumbass'.
Often I double blip - once for the clutch in and shift, then again letting it out. seems to work for me.

[Brett]

An interesting question. I think as others have said that relying on engine braking has become a habit and probably I'm not using a lot of front brake. I do like the snarl from the bike when shifting down.

Think I let go the front brake when the rear felt unstable so that the front wheel could pull it back into line. Should have pulled the clutch in and kept looking to the vanishing point. Slow down sounds like the best plan. :D

The rear wheel moving around a bit is actually a fairly easily controlled thing, it is when the front starts moving around you get worried. have you done any trackdays or such? That is one way to get familiar with how the bike can squirm and move into, through and out of corners...

[Moki]

Sounds like unloaded rear combined with engine braking

[rocketman1]

Dude you were in too higher gear, and stopping to quickly, the engine braking could not keep up. Can Happen when in panic braking before a crash.
Change down gears quickly by blipping the throttle works for me.

[vtec]

Engine braking is a biproduct of being off the throttle. The two discs on your front wheel are for slowing you down.
Learn to use the front brakes properly, and to the maximum of their ability, see how hard you can press them before the lockup, just be ready to back off if it does.
Learn to blip the throttle on downshifts, this is vital for big vtwins.

I'm guessing you were using rear brakes but not front brakes, aswell as the loading from engine braking. You will lock up extremely easy. On the big vtwins when hard on the front brakes, engine braking alone is enough to cause the rear tyre to hop and chatter.

[Cr1MiNaL]

I try not to blip the rear and push the slipper clutch to its max... its so much funnn :yes: