Food for thought

[Grahameeboy]

A topical issue right now.

Okay you should not run from the Police, that is obvious...however, the Police know that there may be a crash and fatalities.

Humans make mistakes, it is inbred. Is the chase really worth the outcome?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7731936.stm

[Nasty]

Nothing is really worth that outcome ... killing not only yourself but others around you is one extremely selfish act.

[Grahameeboy]

Agree although I suspect being Manchester the occupants were all go for the idea.

I just think how simple is it for the Police to stop and think "If we chase this guy will it end in tears and should we let go"...all for the sake of a ticket or stolen vehicle offence...

Same for the driver I guess but he is in flight mode.

[PrincessBandit]

IMO anyone doing a runner from the police should be held completely accountable for their actions and the outcome if it ends badly. If you've got nothing to hide or some other sort of criminal/lawbreaking activity going on what's wrong with being stopped?
Riders and drivers who initiate chases are entirely to blame when they crash and yes, that includes being responsible for ensuing deaths. It is not a game or a bit of harmless fun to see if you can lose the car pursuing you - they wouldn't be doing it unless they had a good reason. Everyone knows that any vehicle can do enormous damage when control is lost, and most people will acknowledge that in a chase scenario eventually they will lose control of their car/bike. Unfortunately luck "saves" some of these people on enough occassions that others consider it still an acceptable option.
I say "Grow up, and allow your passengers and others who are unfortunate enough to be in your wrong place at the wrong time the chance to grow up and grow older too you selfish twats".

ps Grahameeboy, you don't have to say "and hopefully me too" - you know He does.

[jrandom]

Agree although I suspect being Manchester the occupants were all go for the idea.

Just goes to show you shouldn't do runners in cars.

Hopefully the surviving passenger will learn her lesson and start riding motorcycles once she can walk again.

:msn-wink:

[Grahameeboy]

IMO anyone doing a runner from the police should be held completely accountable for their actions and the outcome if it ends badly. If you've got nothing to hide or some other sort of criminal/lawbreaking activity going on what's wrong with being stopped?
Riders and drivers who initiate chases are entirely to blame when they crash and yes, that includes being responsible for ensuing deaths. It is not a game or a bit of harmless fun to see if you can lose the car pursuing you - they wouldn't be doing it unless they had a good reason. Everyone knows that any vehicle can do enormous damage when control is lost, and most people will acknowledge that in a chase scenario eventually they will lose control of their car/bike. Unfortunately luck "saves" some of these people on enough occassions that others consider it still an acceptable option.
I say "Grow up, and allow your passengers and others who are unfortunate enough to be in your wrong place at the wrong time the chance to grow up and grow older too you selfish twats".

ps Grahameeboy, you don't have to say "and hopefully me too" - you know He does.

Guess I see it a bit different...the Police also know that eventually the runners will crash too...

[Jiminy]

Agree with PrincessBandit on that one.

I bet we would see different comments here if the story had read:
"A police patrol stopped the car after it ran a red light AND KILLED A BIKER in Oldham, before starting a pursuit when the driver drove off at high speed."

Just don't run.

[Usarka]

On Thursday my brother was clocked speeding by a cop coming the other way. Cop did a U-turn on an S-bend directly in front of a truck coming the other way, cop managed to reverse out of trouble as the truckie laid a darkie on the road and probably in his undies.

Once he was pulled over he was shown the radar lock, 113km/hr.

Worth killing another driver for?

What if it was a biker and not a truckie?


ps - cop let bro off, can only imagine because he realised how much of a hypocrite he would have been. But then you have to ask why endanger lives to then let people off......

Haven't had a cop rant for a while :baby:

[dipshit]

I just think how simple is it for the Police to stop and think "If we chase this guy will it end in tears and should we let go"...all for the sake of a ticket or stolen vehicle offence...

WTF..???

I thought last week everybody here was crying out for the police to enforce red light runners....

Make up your minds people.

Should we do away with road rules and policing altogether and just let everybody do what they want?

And if it was your bike or car that was stolen and the police said... "oh yes, we saw it drive past but didn't think we should chase after it in case the crim was to speed off and endanger himself" I somehow don't think you would be to impressed with that idea.

[Gremlin]

IMO anyone doing a runner from the police should be held completely accountable for their actions and the outcome if it ends badly.
sounds good... but where does the responsibility end, and personal responsibility comes into play?

A guy in the states was sent to jail for the death of a cop. The guy ran, cop gave chase, cop crashed (can't remember specifics, but either a tyre blow out or something) and the guy was blamed, and convicted for the cops death.

That I don't believe in, the cop CHOSE to give chase (the guy certainly didn't WANT the cop chasing him), the guy didn't run the cop off the road etc, so full responsibility.... mmmm not quite.

[Dan Mapp]

sounds good... but where does the responsibility end, and personal responsibility comes into play?

A guy in the states was sent to jail for the death of a cop. The guy ran, cop gave chase, cop crashed (can't remember specifics, but either a tyre blow out or something) and the guy was blamed, and convicted for the cops death.

That I don't believe in, the cop CHOSE to give chase (the guy certainly didn't WANT the cop chasing him), the guy didn't run the cop off the road etc, so full responsibility.... mmmm not quite.

If he didn't run cop would (could) be still alive. Just stop and take the pill.

[Littleman]

sounds good... but where does the responsibility end, and personal responsibility comes into play?

A guy in the states was sent to jail for the death of a cop. The guy ran, cop gave chase, cop crashed (can't remember specifics, but either a tyre blow out or something) and the guy was blamed, and convicted for the cops death.

That I don't believe in, the cop CHOSE to give chase (the guy certainly didn't WANT the cop chasing him), the guy didn't run the cop off the road etc, so full responsibility.... mmmm not quite.

Something about swearing something and upholding the law....?

Don't think choosing to do parts of their job is really an option.

I believe policy dictates most 'choices' in the Police.

[Gremlin]

If he didn't run cop would (could) be still alive. Just stop and take the pill.
riiiight... ok...

lets take it further... cop, while pursuing the suspect, crashes into an innocent motorist, lets say a family, and takes out a couple of people... The suspect is still at fault?

I despise the lack of personal responsibility.

[sunhuntin]

its not that hard to stay on the right side of the law. its actually easier and cheaper in the long run!

[Badjelly]

Lets take it further... cop, while pursuing the suspect, crashes into an innocent motorist, lets say a family, and takes out a couple of people... The suspect is still at fault?

Yes, he certainly bears some responsibility in my view.


I despise the lack of personal responsibility.

Amen brother!

[Dan Mapp]

riiiight... ok...

lets take it further... cop, while pursuing the suspect, crashes into an innocent motorist, lets say a family, and takes out a couple of people... The suspect is still at fault?

I despise the lack of personal responsibility.

If you despise lack of personal responsibility why blame the cop who is doing his job and not the runner who the cop is only chasing because said runner ran. The runner is at fault not the cop, If the cops stop chasing everyone will run.

[Gremlin]

its not that hard to stay on the right side of the law. its actually easier and cheaper in the long run!
but soooo booooring :innocent: (but yes, cheaper, and hassle free)


Yes, he certainly bears some responsibility in my view.
Well, you can argue the cop wouldn't have been doing x speed, in x environment, if it wasn't for the suspect, however, the cop could have pulled out of the chase, if he deemed it dangerous (and I am not too happy about young testorone filled guys getting to make this decision) and he (or she) was the only person in charge of the cop vehicle (unless contributing factors like environment or vehicle are taken into account).

In that scenario, I would feel a little sorry for the cop, but they had to choose to continue or not. The cop is to blame for what happens to the family. It would be incredibly dangerous for the cops to feel that, "oh, if anything happens, its going to be the guy I am chasing who will be at fault".

[Gremlin]

If you despise lack of personal responsibility why blame the cop who is doing his job and not the runner who the cop is only chasing because said runner ran. The runner is at fault not the cop, If the cops stop chasing everyone will run.
Yes, if policy was made that, ooh, if they do xyz, cops will stop chasing, would be bad. However, this technically exists already. I can tell you, that in the real world, not every cop is following these laws anyway.

Last line last post I made... Cops cannot think, no matter what happens, its going to be the suspect's fault. The cop has to bear responsibility for his own actions, that is, decision making and driving (ergo, personal responsibility). Yes, they have policies etc... but try finding one cop that will agree that loss of innocent life is worth getting a crim into jail for a few months. Sounds extreme... but there has to be a balance between endangering lives, and upholding the law.

[Dan Mapp]

Yes, if policy was made that, ooh, if they do xyz, cops will stop chasing, would be bad. However, this technically exists already. I can tell you, that in the real world, not every cop is following these laws anyway.

Last line last post I made... Cops cannot think, no matter what happens, its going to be the suspect's fault. The cop has to bear responsibility for his own actions, that is, decision making and driving (ergo, personal responsibility). Yes, they have policies etc... but try finding one cop that will agree that loss of innocent life is worth getting a crim into jail for a few months. Sounds extreme... but there has to be a balance between endangering lives, and upholding the law.

I still think it's the runner endanering those lives.

[Lissa]

If you despise lack of personal responsibility why blame the cop who is doing his job and not the runner who the cop is only chasing because said runner ran. The runner is at fault not the cop, If the cops stop chasing everyone will run. I think most people DONT run from cops, all they have to do is flash their lights at me and I pull over, wouldnt even think about doing a runner.

So a person who is running has a reason to run, right? They could be a scared teenage boy high on Testosterone who (lets face it most teenagers cant make proper adult decisions to save themselves) decides he might try to get away, maybe even if he doesnt think hes done anything wrong. Or they could be a drunk, or high on drugs or a number of reasons. The only reason they are speeding to get away is because they are being chased by the cops. I think the police have to decide at what point for public safety that they pull out of a chase, and lets face it, the police are only human and make bad decisions just like the rest of us.

[Dan Mapp]

I think most people DONT run from cops, all they have to do is flash their lights at me and I pull over, wouldnt even think about doing a runner.

So a person who is running has a reason to run, right? They could be a scared teenage boy high on Testosterone who (lets face it most teenagers cant make proper adult decisions to save themselves) decides he might try to get away, maybe even if he doesnt think hes done anything wrong. Or they could be a drunk, or high on drugs or a number of reasons. The only reason they are speeding to get away is because they are being chased by the cops. I think the police have to decide at what point for public safety that they pull out of a chase, and lets face it, the police are only human and make bad decisions just like the rest of us.

So it's ok for them to get away with said crime? If ya can't do the time don't do the crime

[Lissa]

So it's ok for them to get away with said crime? If ya can't do the time don't do the crimeNever said it was ok for them to get away with it. Just saying that Police have to make the decision to pull out of a chase, especially when the people they are chasing obviously arent thinking rationally and arent going to make the decision to stop.

Lets face it, there are ALOT of scum bags living in our communities who dont give a shit about the rest of us, I dont want me or my children to be put in a situation were a runner crashes into my vehicle because he trying to get away from the cops, for whatever reason. He could be running because he hasnt warrented his car, or because he has no license - and thats not worth losing any lives for. Yea I know they shouldnt be running because of those reason, but some people are just that plain STUPID.

[Dan Mapp]

[QUOTE=Lissa;1813297]Never said it was ok for them to get away with it. Just saying that Police have to make the decision to pull out of a chase, especially when the people they are chasing obviously arent thinking rationally and arent going to make the decision to stop.

That is very true.

[PrincessBandit]

Guess I see it a bit different...the Police also know that eventually the runners will crash too...
Soooooo, just let them all go, is that what you're saying?

WTF..???


Should we do away with road rules and policing altogether and just let everybody do what they want?


Reckon a whole sector (or two) of society would be over the moon if that were to happen.

sounds good... but where does the responsibility end, and personal responsibility comes into play?

A guy in the states was sent to jail for the death of a cop. The guy ran, cop gave chase, cop crashed (can't remember specifics, but either a tyre blow out or something) and the guy was blamed, and convicted for the cops death.

That I don't believe in, the cop CHOSE to give chase (the guy certainly didn't WANT the cop chasing him), the guy didn't run the cop off the road etc, so full responsibility.... mmmm not quite.
Meh, don't give the cops a reason to chase you, everyone stays happy: Runners don't die "'cause the pigs made them crash", innocent bystanders don't get caught in the middle, the police don't become statistics themselves. Again, i wouldn't be surprised if there were some out there who would be only too happy to bait the cops in order to wipe a few of them out. And yes, I am serious about that comment; it wasn't a glib retort. But what would I know, I'm just a boring old party pooper.

Never said it was ok for them to get away with it. Just saying that Police have to make the decision to pull out of a chase, ...

Lets face it, there are ALOT of scum bags living in our communities who dont give a shit about the rest of us, I dont want me or my children to be put in a situation were a runner crashes into my vehicle because he trying to get away from the cops, for whatever reason. He could be running because he hasnt warrented his car, or because he has no license - and thats not worth losing any lives for. Yea I know they shouldnt be running because of those reason, but some people are just that plain STUPID.
Yes, it's a very sad reflection on our society that the selfish, inconsiderate and abusive don't seem to give a fat rats arse about the consequences of their actions on anyone.
I agree that a lack of WoF or license is not worth losing a life over, but when people choose to break the law, and let's face it most runners are doing just that, they are the ones who still have been the cause of "the chase". I say again - don't run, therefore no chase, which ends up with a result of no possible injury or death as an end consequence. Simply really. Agree completely with Sunhuntin!

[PrincessBandit]

Oh, just realised, not everyone would be happy because the driver/rider of the vehicle in question might actually be held accountable for whatever it was he/she was being stopped for in the first place..... (too bad, suck it up and grow bigger cajones to take responsibility) Wow, there's that terrible "r" word again!

[Nagash]

I'm sitting on the side of the fence that says the police should take r************y for their actions in a police chase.

Yes, I agree that if someone tries to escape, the officer should enter into a pursuit but there has to be a limit. If the offender starts driving in such a way where it is highly likely that they will lose control or endanger some one else (Yes it is possible to go over 50km/h and still not pose a major threat), and the officer is unable to call in back up to stop him further up the road, then the pursuit should be called off.

Personally i'm not actually all that sure what a chase is going to achieve anyway, supposedly the idea of it is to get the offender to stop. Well if he's determined enough to run away in the first place, then he's probably not jsut going to change his mind a K up the road and pull over, they're gonna keep going till they escape, or crash. The police just play a gamble with whether or not the crash that stops them will be a major one or not.

Or atleast that's how I see it, never actually othered looking into the policies behind police pursuits before.

---

In the example given in the first post, the chase only went on for 2 minutes so I don't believe the Police offer should accept any responsiblity for that instance, the guy was just driving like a twat.

[Grahameeboy]

WTF..???

I thought last week everybody here was crying out for the police to enforce red light runners....

Make up your minds people.

Should we do away with road rules and policing altogether and just let everybody do what they want?

And if it was your bike or car that was stolen and the police said... "oh yes, we saw it drive past but didn't think we should chase after it in case the crim was to speed off and endanger himself" I somehow don't think you would be to impressed with that idea.

Not me saying that and I have Insurance...not too sure how I would feel if someone died on my bike...chances are that bike would be written off so I would not be overly bothered

[Grahameeboy]

Soooooo, just let them all go, is that what you're saying?



Yes if it means there is a risk factor...

[Mom]

If the cops stop chasing everyone will run.

I think you will find if the cops dont chase, then there be no need to run.

Classic catch 22 situation.

I hate police chases.

[Ixion]

Perhaps a compromise might be for the police not to chase at speed. But if someone does a runner, and gets caught by other means (helicopter, roadblock, spikes, rego plate), he goes down for a LONG time.

At present, the incremental penalty for running (as people have noted in another place) is slight. So if someone is looking at serious disqualification anyway, the extra "cost" of running is slight. If the "cost" were higher if caught, despite not being chased, the game might not seem so worth it.

Somewhat better chance of getting away with it. But MUCH worse if you don't.

[PrincessBandit]

I think you will find if the cops dont chase, then there be no need to run.

Classic catch 22 situation.

I hate police chases.

If drivers don't run then there's no chase......

[jrandom]

At present, the incremental penalty for running (as people have noted in another place) is slight. So if someone is looking at serious disqualification anyway, the extra "cost" of running is slight. If the "cost" were higher if caught, despite not being chased, the game might not seem so worth it.

Ixion hits the nub of the matter, IMHO. Assuming you back yourself to stay safe, if you're about to be pulled for anything involving a potential loss of licence, attempting a runner is always worthwhile on a risk/reward basis.

Assuming you back yourself to stay safe.

[Naki Rat]

A topical issue right now.

Okay you should not run from the Police, that is obvious...however, the Police know that there may be a crash and fatalities.

Humans make mistakes, it is inbred. Is the chase really worth the outcome?



In the end it's natural selection at work. Just a shame when the retard behind the wheel kills or maims innocent others. And the 'retard' tag can just as easily apply to the chaser as the chased.

[dipshit]

Reckon a whole sector (or two) of society would be over the moon if that were to happen.

Only for a short while though.

Imagine how many red light runners we would soon have if the police weren't even going to bother to enforce the law.

You'd be far more likely to be taken out by a red light runner than getting caught up in a police chase.

A car full of morons taking themselves out is a small price to pay.

[Indoo]

A topical issue right now.

Okay you should not run from the Police, that is obvious...however, the Police know that there may be a crash and fatalities.

Humans make mistakes, it is inbred. Is the chase really worth the outcome?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7731936.stm

And what makes you think that if the Police hadn't attempted chasing that the very same outcome wouldn't have occurred?

From that report the guy had already left the Police car for dead when he crashed. Had the Police abandoned it immediately do you think he would have suddenly started driving normally knowing that a convoy of cop cars is flocking into the area where hes heading? He would have continued going like hell until he was out of the area.

Maybe the Police shouldn't have even attempted to stop the car in first place, after all we do need to ensure the survival of societies best and brightest. The same should really apply for foot pursuits as well, wouldn't want a burglar to sprain an ankle and have to take time off.

I could understand the relevance if that had been a chase going on for some time with the Police right up the guys arse still following him as he drove like a maniac before crashing into an innocent family killing them, but that example?

[boomer]

Agree although I suspect being Manchester the occupants were all go for the idea.

wtf sort of random comment is that?! Surely you're not pigeon holing..becasue we know crime doesn't happen anywhere else 'cept tut norf.. huh?! its grim up Norf huh Graham?

[OutForADuck]

The moment you decide to run, its ended badly.

Very hard to outrun radio, dozens of cops, some plain cloths, helicopter and after all that, you had better be riding a bike with incorrect rego because even if its a mates bike how long are they going to "not give you up" for when the cops hold them responsible as the registered owner to fess up or take the hit themselves?

Na... all the above without even crashing or causing another accident....

I'd prefer to cry on the side of the road and take it like a baby :weep: Whilst phoning for the taxi :argh:

[Grahameeboy]

And what makes you think that if the Police hadn't attempted chasing that the very same outcome wouldn't have occurred?

From that report the guy had already left the Police car for dead when he crashed. Had the Police abandoned it immediately do you think he would have suddenly started driving normally knowing that a convoy of cop cars is flocking into the area where hes heading? He would have continued going like hell until he was out of the area.

Maybe the Police shouldn't have even attempted to stop the car in first place, after all we do need to ensure the survival of societies best and brightest. The same should really apply for foot pursuits as well, wouldn't want a burglar to sprain an ankle and have to take time off.

I could understand the relevance if that had been a chase going on for some time with the Police right up the guys arse still following him as he drove like a maniac before crashing into an innocent family killing them, but that example?

I understand...the answer is no one knows the outcome...

The ankle point is a bit of a "limp" one though...:lol:

[Grahameeboy]

wtf sort of random comment is that?! Surely you're not pigeon holing..becasue we know crime doesn't happen anywhere else 'cept tut norf.. huh?! its grim up Norf huh Graham?

I knew that would bring you out...come on give us a :hug:

[Grahameeboy]

If drivers don't run then there's no chase......

Couldn't agree more but there is the bigger picture...you know pity you are not single cause you sound hot...:cold:

[PrincessBandit]

:laugh: and :hug:

[Brett]

riiiight... ok...

lets take it further... cop, while pursuing the suspect, crashes into an innocent motorist, lets say a family, and takes out a couple of people... The suspect is still at fault?

I despise the lack of personal responsibility.

I am with you on this Alan.