Suzuki shop rumours.

[tri boy]

A small wee birdy fluttered past me today, as it danced around my scone, it whispered, "3 Suzuki franchised shops are closing down in NZ".
It flitted away before I had a chance to find out which shops, or why. And also to let it know it was flying straight towards a salivating tom cat.

Also heard on the grapevine that Holden dealers need to start sourcing their own finance companies in NZ as well.
Dark days, and storm clouds keep gathering on the horizon.:mellow:

[Pumba]

Doesnt surprise me.

The question is are the shops suhting down or just losing there suzuki frachises (sp?)

When I was in certian bike shop the other day the Darbi accesories rep was there and I overheard a conversation that he was currently touring his sales region (presumably auckland?) collecting up stock for accounts that are well overdue.

[T.W.R]

Four Peaks Suzuki in Geraldine told Suzuki NZ to shove their dealership up their you know what :buggerd: at the beginning of the week.
The place has been under new management for less than a month after the last owner had a stress related heart attack :pinch:.

[tri boy]

Doesnt surprise me.

The question is are the shops suhting down or just losing there suzuki frachises (sp?)


Closing down, kaputski, say nigh nigh, sell the kids etc etc etc.
Honest little birdie, may the gods of our feathered friends take pity on his munched up carcass.
Receivers will be hiring staff next year. MHO

[Motu]

Dealer margins on Suzuki's are minimal - but makes for a cheap bike to sell.I don't think the Harley dealer in Hamilton misses them one bit.

[slofox]

Dealer margins on Suzuki's are minimal - but makes for a cheap bike to sell.I don't think the Harley dealer in Hamilton misses them one bit.

Back in the day, Honda made a fortune by selling the bikes cheap and charging like a wounded bull for PARTS......read "Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".....(good book)

[98tls]

Back in the day, Honda made a fortune by selling the bikes cheap and charging like a wounded bull for PARTS......read "Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".....(good book) Franchised car dealers did and still do,if it wasnt for parts,service,used cars depts they wouldnt exist.

[Finn]

Must I always shine light on all of KB's mistery?

During the great depression, GE had to find new and creative ways to sell their appliances. They decided the only way was to fund (finance) the stock themselves. Along came GE Finance. Recently, GE (worldwide) decided in their infinite wisdom to cease this carry on. Most of NZ motorvehicle retailers (cars and bikes) fund their floor stock through GE. With the removal of such funding, the weak dealers will go.

Add this to a shitty economy, 9 years of poor Government and small margins and there's your answer.

[SARGE]

A small wee birdy fluttered past me today, as it danced around my scone, it whispered, "3 Suzuki franchised shops are closing down in NZ".
It flitted away before I had a chance to find out which shops, or why. And also to let it know it was flying straight towards a salivating tom cat.

Also heard on the grapevine that Holden dealers need to start sourcing their own finance companies in NZ as well.
Dark days, and storm clouds keep gathering on the horizon.:mellow:

i work as a supplier to the auto industry,, i have lost 2 Mitsubishi dealerships .. a major Ford brand has lost 25 skilled staff and a BMW dealership is in dire straits.. i go into workshops all over town and see 19 mechanics on the floor and 16 of them mopping it ..

bike dealers seem to be doing ok.. as are heavy transport and the marine industry but the auto industry is feeling it

[jrandom]

Time for a cleanout. The strong will survive.

Frankly, it's a relief.

[Hitcher]

There will be bargains to be had. Perhaps there is a cheap V-Strom in my future after all...

[jafar]

Time for a cleanout. The strong will survive.

Frankly, it's a relief.

There will be an awfull lot of casualties & untold greif to get your " relief"
Families are hurting now , christ knows how many more will be caught out:argh:

[jrandom]

There will be an awfull lot of casualties & untold greif to get your " relief"
Families are hurting now

O RLY?

All I see is interest rates and commodity prices becoming sensible again.

[Elysium]

Phil Turnbull's was the Suzuki dealer here in Palmy until their unexpected liquidation. That dealership went to Freedom, who were Freedom Honda until they lost that delership to City Honda.

Phil Turnball's case could be just not being managed well. I personaly felt it was not being run well after Phil sold the business and made worse when Steven from service leaved for City Honda.

So I'm not sure if some of these shops going bust is due to the economy, perhaps some aint being managed right.

[Pussy]

O RLY?

All I see is interest rates and commodity prices becoming sensible again.

I very rarely agree with anything you say, mr random, but you've hit the nail right on the head there!

[jrandom]

So I'm not so sure if some of these shops going bust is due to the economy, perhaps some aint being managed right.

The 'state of the economy', such as it is, is really just the withdrawal of overly-available credit showing up operations that relied on it rather than the genuine creation of value.

[Elysium]

The 'state of the economy', such as it is, is really just the withdrawal of overly-available credit showing up operations that relied on it rather than the genuine creation of value.
I wont argue with that.

[Bulldog]

How can a liquidation be unexpected? That simpy says whoever is running the business isn't running it at all, least of all the books.

[1 Free Man]

Phil Turnbull's was the Suzuki dealer here in Palmy until their unexpected liquidation. That dealership went to Freedom, who were Freedom Honda until they lost that delership to City Honda.

Phil Turnball's case could be just not being managed well. I personaly felt it was not being run well after Phil sold the business and made worse when Steven from service leaved for City Honda.

So I'm not sure if some of these shops going bust is due to the economy, perhaps some aint being managed right.

Went into Freedom suzuki in Palmy 4 weeks ago and asked for a price on a new S83. I spoke at lenght with the young guy on the showroom floor.
He took all of my details and was going to e-mail or ring me with a price.
I was a cash buyer.
Still havent heard from them. Needless to say I won't go back and have done a deal elsewere.
If that's their idea of giving good service they will be going down the shitter soome rather later as well.
Tough times call for proactive measures and not getting back to potential sale
is a recipe for disaster. Maybe that's why they lost the Honda dealership.

[puddy]

Must I always shine light on all of KB's mistery?

Sorry.......... is that similar to a "mystery"?
Also, I think you missed a couple of spots when you brushed.:Pokey:
But I do agree about the government over the last nine years!

[Okey Dokey]

How can a liquidation be unexpected? That simpy says whoever is running the business isn't running it at all, least of all the books.

PLANNING: Don't plan. That way failure comes as a complete surprise and is not proceeded by weeks of anxiety.

[Blossom]

... have done a deal elsewere.


Sorry off topic here.. but.. does that mean you have upgraded the vl?

I agree some bike shops need to send all their staff on customer service and sales courses. The level of service I have found all over Auckland has been quite bad. Not in every dealership but enough to convince me that when I found one with good service I have stuck with them.

[slimjim]

yes its not just auckland that has very poor service...

[Mystic13]

Sorry off topic here.. but.. does that mean you have upgraded the vl?

I agree some bike shops need to send all their staff on customer service and sales courses. The level of service I have found all over Auckland has been quite bad. Not in every dealership but enough to convince me that when I found one with good service I have stuck with them.

Really... bad service everywhere? I have not had bad service yet with a bike. I've had a good run with pretty much every bike shop I've used for service here in Auckland. The two main dealers I deal with are exceptional being Haldanes Suzuki and Experience BMW. I've also been talking to Wild West Honda about some stuff and think I would get a good run from them as well. On the whole I thought bike service was pretty good.

Even quick stops at out of town stores have been a great experience. Like the neat guys at Phil's Motorcycles in Matamata or Trike Works in Taupo.

Overall I'm surprised how good motorcycle service is whereever I go.

[Katman]

or Trike Works in Taupo.



I just blew coffee out my nose.

:lol:

[vgcspares]

O RLY?

All I see is interest rates and commodity prices becoming sensible again.

a friend's huisband redundant from an engineering firm in dire straights
a relative redundant from a finance firm (along with a load of others)
a friend lost a job opp as the bank ceased all hiring
another friend in a now shaky 3 man outfit where the cash is not forthcoming from trade debtors

I could go on, all you need to do is save comment til you gain understanding

[jrandom]

a friend's huisband redundant from an engineering firm in dire straights
a relative redundant from a finance firm (along with a load of others)
a friend lost a job opp as the bank ceased all hiring
another friend in a now shaky 3 man outfit where the cash is not forthcoming from trade debtors

Like I said, welcome to what happens when easy credit is withdrawn from the system.

Wealth only comes from genuine value creation. Grow food, mine metals, manufacture useful things. The further you are from such activities, the less surprised you should be if your income occasionally evaporates.

And it behooves every employee to examine the commercial viability of companies they decide to work for.

[Big Dave]

By George Orwell Random.

[jrandom]

By George Orwell Random.

Two wheels good, four wheels bad.

[shafty]

Our local Honda Dealer just laid 2 long termers off (Mechanics) and have heard a Mitsi Dealer in Whangarei turned their toes up

[Morcs]

an extremely well known racer is in the shit too. His finance company did everything through GE.

[Swoop]

Might have to check out the jumbo bin out the back of the suzuki dealers...
Might be some gsxr bikes in them.:blip:

I guess it will cut out the middle man.

[Racing Dave]

On the bright side, a NEW Suzuki dealer will open soon in Chch, supposedly by Xmas, but I think January. Avon City Suzuki, at the Sockburn roundabout. A subset of the Ford dealership at the same address.

[Brian d marge]

Like I said, welcome to what happens when easy credit is withdrawn from the system.

Wealth only comes from genuine value creation. Grow food, mine metals, manufacture useful things. The further you are from such activities, the less surprised you should be if your income occasionally evaporates.

And it behooves every employee to examine the commercial viability of companies they decide to work for.



But Helen said it was a Knowledge economy,,,, So I bought 24 000 Dollars worth on the understanding it would get me a high paying Job !

Still Motorcycles are a necessitous , So Ill be ok ....Wouldn't mind living in Geraldine though

Stephen

[SPman]

Just back from a week or so in Las Vegas. Bike dealerships are falling over there at a steady rate, apparently,....around half the bike shops have closed up......except the local Harley dealership....and they have some good deals going

[raftn]

Thats great.........if you want to buy a tractor.

[SPman]

The nearest roads we found with anything approaching decent sinuous corners was 100 miles north, going over the pass out of Death Valley. In that environment, tractors = good.

[Elysium]

How can a liquidation be unexpected? That simpy says whoever is running the business isn't running it at all, least of all the books.

When the staff turned up to work to find they were locked out and no idea why.

[ckai]

If you've been running a business for a few years and you're getting in the shit now, you shouldn't be in business since you were only riding a wave. If you thought the good times were always going to be around, then sorry, but you were doomed to fail. You should have planned for the inevitable (sp?)

90% of business going belly up is poor management. The other 10% is unforseen stuff like, contracts being pulled without prior warning or really crap stuff like fires wiping you out.

I agree that now things will start becoming more realistic in terms of prices, and it's a good thing, but it's a shame it costs peoples jobs. You should always run your business for your staff.

[danchop]

picture 10 nice new bikes in a shop say being worth $200grand, how many bike shops can afford that cash outlay upfront, now that some(suzuki dealers)cant finance them to buy them to sell or display,dealers now will not like trading in your old one unless its a quick easy sell
this is how it used to roughly work,dealer buys bike off the importer through a finance company,the dealer has 3 months to sell before that finance company starts charging the dealer interest on the wholesale price,some dealers got into trouble with this in good times but in these times the finance companies have pulled the pin on the risk to them

[Forest]

Just back from a week or so in Las Vegas. Bike dealerships are falling over there at a steady rate, apparently,....around half the bike shops have closed up......except the local Harley dealership....and they have some good deals going

Is that pink Buell a factory paint job?

[wickle]

Its surprise;s me how many so called "BUSINESS Expects" are on this site, if you are all so good you should get together and buy/takeover one of these failing bike shops. An old freind once told me that when in busineess
" If you are doing well experts say you are ripping evevyone off." When things are not so good you are a fool and dont know what you are doing.!
Regretfully in todays world NO_ONE whats to pay full retail price but what is full retail price.

[ducatijim]

I just blew coffee out my nose.

:lol:

.....ha ha ha....and I red wine outa mine!!!!!!...he..he....he...................

[Ocean1]

Just back from a week or so in Las Vegas.

Thought that accent sounded familiar, it was you skinnydipping in the fountain at the Ballagio wasn't it?


except the local Harley dealership....and they have some good deals going

Yeah, I saw a few too, no bikes, just HD "accessories".

Didn't bother looking inside after the third one.


Is that pink Buell a factory paint job?

Y'know, I think it might be. It's all plastic, very difficult to paint. Also, I've seen an XB that colour here...

[dpex]

O RLY?

All I see is interest rates and commodity prices becoming sensible again.

Yup, J. You're right. It's nothing more than a market 'correction'. A few will lose their high-paying jobs, another few will lose their low-paying jobs. A few will go broke; many, with foresight will not.

Life is the freedom to choose our own course. Plato knew it and stated it, Rand repeated it. Many ignore it because they believe they have some 'given' right to survive, despite their own inability, on account of OSH, or the Human Rights Commission, or God, or some fucker says they have.

Welcome to the real world where the big fish shit on the little fish, and unless the little fish are quick they get covered in shit.

This market 'correction' will be quite small compared to what it should be.

The global financial world is in way worse condition than it was in 1914. But in those days the solution to global economic decline was to start a good old war. Focused everyone on the matter in hand.

Sadly, the option of a world war is no longer available due to technical ability of the super-powers.

So what will they come up with to bring the common man into common focus?

I think the smart boys will devise some sort of major, but local issue, in many lands.

CIA-funded terrorism tops the tree for me. The bastards have to find some way to take the minds of the public off the real issue (Financial disaster).

They've tried heaps of sideliners...AIDS, SARS, Bird-Flu, Chicken Flu, Botty Flu, Global Warming, you name them, but the horror never arrived.

Whereas, in times past the public were kept unfocused on the real problems by getting them to focus on Ghengis Khan through to Adolf.

What have we had since WW2? The Korean war. Vietnam. The three day War, the Five day War, Desert Storm. Afghanistan, et al.

All damp squibs compared to the biggies of days past where millions lost focus on the real issues to become a part of the war-effort.

Mark my words. The bright boys are, at this moment, trying to figure out how to create a cataclysm sufficient to get global focus off the coming crash but such as will allow them to walk away with clean hands.

A convenient asteroid, plummeting toward Wellington would be good.

But, at the end of the day, a good global crash is good. All it does is redefine the value of a dollar.

Hell's teeth! Imagine that? An Augusta for $9-95. And a house in Ponsonby for $29.95 :--))

[blossomsowner]

O RLY?

All I see is interest rates and commodity prices becoming sensible again.



you must be mighty confident in your employment to have that attitude......

Yeah some prices are coming back down a bit............doesn't help much if you have lost your job though. I work in the construction industry and there is plenty of people having hard times there...............

and they mostly do useful things for the country too..............

[jrandom]

you must be mighty confident in your employment to have that attitude...

*shrug*

I'm pretty sure that what I'm working on will continue to be needed, yes. If it ever turns out not to be, I'll work on something else that is, rather than having a cry over the results of my own poor judgment.


I work in the construction industry and there is plenty of people having hard times there..

Could that be because it's been booming off the back of projects funded with unsustainably-borrowed money for a while now, and some of those people didn't have the nous to realise that their wages were being paid by a house of cards?

[1 Free Man]

Sorry off topic here.. but.. does that mean you have upgraded the vl?
Not quite. Still have the VL but have bought an S83 for when I get my full licence.
Don't know how long I will be able to leave it in the garage without giving it a wee try.

[ckai]

Its surprise;s me how many so called "BUSINESS Expects" are on this site, if you are all so good you should get together and buy/takeover one of these failing bike shops. An old freind once told me that when in busineess
" If you are doing well experts say you are ripping evevyone off." When things are not so good you are a fool and dont know what you are doing.!
Regretfully in todays world NO_ONE whats to pay full retail price but what is full retail price.

Is an expert someone who offers an opinion or someone that forces an opinion?

If I knew the bike industry as well as my current industry I would probably consider it. But then I would probably be called a "blood-sucker" and evil capitalist for benefiting from the down-trodden by those "experts" that say I rip people off when times are good.

There are profits, then there are super-profits. I'm all for people that reward themselves for their hard work, but can't stand those that take advantage of their staff to get it.


picture 10 nice new bikes in a shop say being worth $200grand, how many bike shops can afford that cash outlay upfront, now that some(suzuki dealers)cant finance them to buy them to sell or display,dealers now will not like trading in your old one unless its a quick easy sell
this is how it used to roughly work,dealer buys bike off the importer through a finance company,the dealer has 3 months to sell before that finance company starts charging the dealer interest on the wholesale price,some dealers got into trouble with this in good times but in these times the finance companies have pulled the pin on the risk to them

Imagine what the car dealers would be going through? Or is it set up different?

Those shops that are liquidating, I suppose they would sell their bikes to other dealers?? Shame if they did :)

[Pussy]

Making a profit isn't a crime.... your accountant will tell you it's a REQUIREMENT

[SPman]

Is that pink Buell a factory paint job?
Bad photography - it's more red than that - the new 1125CR - I asked if they had one, they looked around, said"we must have sold it", and 2 mins later they wheeled a new one onto the floor from the stockroom out back.If we hadn't been on our way to the airport, they would have been happy for me to take it out .....

[HenryDorsetCase]

There will be bargains to be had. Perhaps there is a cheap V-Strom in my future after all...

or an even cheaper DR650 in mine!

[HenryDorsetCase]

I think there is a pretty fundamental dichotomy at the heart of the motorcycle shop and motorcycle shop customer relationship.

A motorcycle shop customer is, by definition, an enthusiast. He or she is pretty much always spending hard earned money on a lifestyle product. (And in this thread its been pretty conclusive that the brand doing the best is the one that caters to its lifestyle customers the best, i.e. H-D). The customer is paying out of discretionary income, and because they are enthusiasts, they want their experience and lifestyle choice and aspiration to be shared by the dealer.

The dealer on the other hand MUST be a businessman first and foremost because otherwise they cannot continue in business to service their enthusiast customers. It helps if they are enthusiasts also BUT IT IS NOT NECESSARY. The principles of making a profit on every widget sold, keeping the costs under control, being a form filler for the government, and employing and keeping staff happy and motivated would apply if they were selling motorbikes or beach volleyball equipment.

So the customers expectation that because this purchase is a lifestyle choice and they have favoured the dealer with their discretionary dollar (which they have because it could be spent elsewhere) and the dealer's need to make money on every deal are at loggerheads. It seems to me that managing that conflict so that both sides are happy is the key to the business. Some do it extraordinarily well (the HD dealer here (Rolling Thunder), Ashburton Honda, Sportzone Suzuki are three where I would go again tomorrow. Others less so. (no names)

[Krazyklaus]

Along with the credit squeeze the Kiwi Peso is also not helping our importers.
This time last year 1NZ$ bought you 85 Yen. Today you'll only get 50 Yen.
Big price rises on new and imported used bikes are coming.

[scumdog]

Thats great.........if you want to buy a tractor.

I guess.

And the option is: no bike.??

[SARGE]

ya know.. heres the thing..i heard on the radio today.. some pundit saying that the auto industry will lose 30% of its dealers over the next 18 months in NZ..

probably true..lets call it "financial Darwinism"

the ones that treat customers like dollar signs and fail to deliver exceptional service will fall over..

the ones that go the extra mile to treat customers with respect will thrive and grow.

as i have stated earlier in this thread.. .. several of my dealers are going into receivership...


on the other hand.. i have a few that are expanding and spending..i have enjoyed 4 record sales months in a row personally..not all reps in my company can say that..mirroring the market..

this is an artificially created recession.. the bankers and bigwigs engineered this to drop the world markets in order to buy up stocks, futures and currency at fire sale prices...

they get richer.. you get poorer.. ignore the media..you are being lied to

[Motu]

We hear that about 15 workshops in our area have closed....and business is picking up.This is a small 2 branch dealership,but very long standing....I have no idea of how they are doing.The Xmas bonus will be a good clue.

The customers that like to moan and find fault will have more reason to complain.Those customers that appreciate our good service will be even more positive in their response.Keep the good ones - cut loose the bad,they will drag you under.

[Digitdion]

SArge, i must agree with you, in regard to everything being blown out of preportion by the media.I believe that we used to call it PROPAGANDA. Remember 6 months ago everything we read was about oil prices going up to $200 a barrel. Now we hear nothing. Fear and bad news get people watching or reading the news.

My advice is do not get to greedy, be sensible with your hard earned cash. You may be better off not buying that new helmet. But that will not stop you riding like the wind will it!?!

[SPman]

Fear and bad news get people watching or reading the news.

Or at least the news they want the minions to watch.........

[Sollyboy]

Also heard on the grapevine that Holden dealers need to start sourcing their own finance companies in NZ as well.


suzuki cars have an interest free deals at the moment , another good reason to give aussie cars a big swerve , i just wish i could fit in a swift

[Sollyboy]

There will be an awfull lot of casualties & untold greif to get your " relief"
Families are hurting now , christ knows how many more will be caught out:argh:

Id have to agree , his was one of the most ignorant statement i read

[vtec]

the ones that go the extra mile to treat customers with respect will thrive and grow.

as i have stated earlier in this thread.. .. several of my dealers are going into receivership...

on the other hand.. i have a few that are expanding and spending..i have enjoyed 4 record sales months in a row personally..not all reps in my company can say that..mirroring the market..

this is an artificially created recession.. the bankers and bigwigs engineered this to drop the world markets in order to buy up stocks, futures and currency at fire sale prices...

they get richer.. you get poorer.. ignore the media..you are being lied to

Banks have been falling over since last year mate. It has been caused by numerous speculative bubbles, and now they are all bursting at once. The people running the banks would have known it was unsustainable, but they didn't care, they were making huge profits (and getting multimillion dollar bonuses) on CREDIT DERIVATIVES that were mulitplying in value due to speculation, when the housing market turned they were worth nothing, a bit like share futures.

The credit derivatives market is worth on the order of 500 trillion dollars US. Or $500,000,000,000,000 it was all pretend paper money which made everyone think they were rich. Now it's disappeared, and there's not enough real economy money in the world to cover the losses. How to fix it?
Cancel debt. Have a look at:
www.larouchepac.com
and
www.marketoracle.co.uk
The world is collapsing, how deep will the rabbit hole go? I don't know. I'll be buying a good tent and sleeping bag and hunting knife though, just in case.

Many in the media are still trying to talk it down and bring calm. They are really just deceiving average joe, and preventing preparation for hard times.

If you've got a mortgage free property you should be sweet. To the rest of us, good luck.

Farmers will fare the best, as food and water are the only things really required in times of hardship.

[_intense_]

Four Peaks Suzuki in Geraldine told Suzuki NZ to shove their dealership up their you know what :buggerd: at the beginning of the week.
The place has been under new management for less than a month after the last owner had a stress related heart attack :pinch:.
geraldine > FTW lol

[SARGE]

Banks have been falling over since last year mate. ***SNIP****

Farmers will fare the best, as food and water are the only things really required in times of hardship.

nah man.. its the Masons, the Bilderberg Group, Skull & Bones and the Illuminati.. i saw it on the interdweeb

[SARGE]

Imagine what the car dealers would be going through? Or is it set up different?

Those shops that are liquidating, I suppose they would sell their bikes to other dealers?? Shame if they did :)

most of the dealer bikes are on a 'Floor Plan' Interest free loand for 90 days.. if the stock isnt gone in that time, the dealers start paying interest on that loan. if you have 20 brand new Suzukis, thats worth 20-30k (just an average estimate) if stock is moving slow..all that money is tied up..still got salaries, rents, accessories costs, workshop supplies,advertising and marketing.. ...yadda yadda..

GE Finance owns the bikes.. they can come get them whenever they want


sell or die..

[mstriumph]

Bad photography - it's more red than that - the new 1125CR - I asked if they had one, they looked around, said"we must have sold it", and 2 mins later they wheeled a new one onto the floor from the stockroom out back.If we hadn't been on our way to the airport, they would have been happy for me to take it out .....

and he was soooooooooo tempted :sweatdrop ....

....incidentally, this is a better idea of the colour - sweeeeeeet!

[mstriumph]

Thought that accent sounded familiar, it was you skinnydipping in the fountain at the Ballagio wasn't it? :Oops:




Yeah, I saw a few too, no bikes, just HD "accessories".

Didn't bother looking inside after the third one.

the Vegas dealership we visted didn't seem to have that problem? - there was more but i would have needed a wide angle lens ....

[barty5]

Back in the day, Honda made a fortune by selling the bikes cheap and charging like a wounded bull for PARTS......read "Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".....(good book)

I have a workshop in newmarket went to a certain merc dealer the other day to get a cabin filter was told buy other supplier they were out of stock, anyway guy hand me aftermaket filter and asks for $90 then takes a second look say sorry takes it back and come back with a genuine one. Gose to show take your car/bike to a dealer they will charge you for genuine parts they fit that are not the real deal. and only sell the genuine stuff over the counter.

[Thunder 8]

nah man.. its the Masons, the Bilderberg Group, Skull & Bones and the Illuminati.. i saw it on the interdweeb
:devil2:
You forgot to mention the scientologists...:lol::lol: