Is 6 months all a biker's life is worth? In the news today!

[James Deuce]

Always remember you are worthless when riding a motorcycle on a NZ road.

For some reason that seems to upset a number of KBers, but the NZ Judiciary obviously subscribes to the theory that motorcyclists deserve everything they get, including death.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4770196a11.html

[de_wood_elf]

Always remember you are worthless when riding a motorcycle on a NZ road.

For some reason that seems to upset a number of KBers, but the NZ Judiciary obviously subscribes to the theory that motorcyclists deserve everything they get, including death.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4770196a11.html




Well you made the fatal assumption that New Zealand has a FAIR justice system.

[James Deuce]

No I didn't. I've always subscribed to the wacko theory that road deaths are acceptable in NZ, up to and including actions that would earn a Vehicular Manslaughter conviction and mandatory jail sentence in a lot of countries.

If she'd done the same at home, there'd be no doubt she'd be off to jail if found guilty, as she was here.

[de_wood_elf]

No I didn't. I've always subscribed to the wacko theory that road deaths are acceptable in NZ, up to and including actions that would earn a Vehicular Manslaughter conviction and mandatory jail sentence in a lot of countries.

If she'd done the same at home, there'd be no doubt she'd be off to jail if found guilty, as she was here.

I always thought deaths in general were acceptable in the land of the long white cloud? I mean its not like anything really happens about it.

[wbks]

Shit like that makes me sick. Fuck. There are a lot of things I'm begining to hate about this country we live in.

[Bren]

I am disgusted at this....some stupid yankee bitch gets 6 months home detention for killing a pillion passenger...FFS, whats a human life worth!!!


Motorcycle pillion passenger Julie Ann Smith, 37, was killed when a car driven by Cheryl Blair, 43, collided head-on with the bike - Blair was last week sentenced to six months' home detention.

Is it just me or has the world gone to the dogs????


Full story here! (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10544551)

[SARGE]

I am disgusted at this....some stupid yankee bitch gets 6 months home detention for killing a pillion passenger...FFS, whats a human life worth!!!


easy on the Yank Bashing Boyo.. ..coulda been anyone..

[Goblin]

Shit like that makes me sick. Fuck. There are a lot of things I'm begining to hate about this country we live in.It's ok. National won the election. Everything is going to be fine.:msn-wink:

[AlBundy]

easy on the Yank Bashing Boyo.. ..coulda been anyone..

Don't be so sensitive.

If it were a pom, it's be a Pommy bitch etc....

Fucking Yanks, can't take them anywhere...

[SARGE]

Don't be so sensitive.

If it were a pom, it's be a Pommy bitch etc....

Fucking Yanks, can't take them anywhere...

yea .. but i bet if i came off with a "soft-cock Kiwi Dole Blogging Lefty Crybaby" then i'd catch a few too..



but i digress..

[AlBundy]

yea .. but i bet if i came off with a "soft-cock Kiwi Dole Blogging Lefty Crybaby" then i'd catch a few too...

I'm sure VERY few would argue...

[Ixion]

Don't be so sensitive.

If it were a pom, it's be a Pommy bitch etc....

Fucking Yanks, can't take them anywhere...

The 'Yankee' reference has validity, because the accident occurred because the driver was driving on the wrong side of the road. The implication being that she had temporarily reverted to US driving habits. A Pom would not have had that problem since they drive on the correct side of the road, like us.

[AlBundy]

The 'Yankee' reference has validity, because the accident occurred because the driver was driving on the wrong side of the road. The implication being that she had temporarily reverted to US driving habits. A Pom would not have had that problem since they drive on the correct side of the road, like us.

My bad.. Let's make it any European country then. It wouldn't make a difference.

It was more a dig at Sarge, since he's one. I suspect he's feeling done in by the comment...

Now, I feel sorry for the family. Without knowing all the details, I'd have to say, if I were overseas and something like this happened, I'd hate to have to go to jail, for what is an accident. Yes, I would be to blame but how would you feel in the same situation?
There are two sides to the story.

What I do disagree with, is the womens attitude to the situation. If she'd have come clean and apologised from the start, it'd be totally different.
Was she doing something blatantly dangerous, other than slipping into the habit of driving on the wrong side of the road?

[Ixion]

Actually, I was agreeing with you .

[jtzzr]

The sentence is BULLSHIT , Someones life is worth a hell of alot more than 6mths Home D.

And the fact that the family gets $5200 @ $100 per week , is just salt into the wound really isn`t it. The American Immigration Service must pay crap.

[SARGE]

It was more a dig at Sarge,


brave boy...

[PrincessBandit]

My husband has driven in the States a few times and has commented on how easy it is to end up on the wrong side of the road. It's no consolation to the bereaved family, but it could so easily happen to anyone.
6 months home detention does seem awfully lenient, but surely all the details of the accident were taken into account before handing out the sentence.

[SARGE]

The sentence is BULLSHIT , Someones life is worth a hell of alot more than 6mths Home D.


ok.. lets put this in perspective for a moment

(DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT DEFENDING THIS WOMAN)

lets just say for a moment..that you are driving to the shops with the kids in the back of the car and you become distracted by something they do and ACCIDENTALLY cross the line and hit a bike head on, killing the rider,


how long are you going to volunteer to go to prison for?..

there was no malice in this womans actions.. no premeditation.. just an accident.... being from the States..i'll let you know that it IS very easy to end up in the wrong lane.. much like its going to be easy for a kiwi to end up on the wrong lane in the States...hell..i've been here since 01 and sometimes STILL do it..

you've made some haven't you?

[Bren]

easy on the Yank Bashing Boyo.. ..coulda been anyone..


coulda been anyone yup....a spic, or an aussie, or a pommie....shit coulda been a kiwi too...maybe I shoulda rephrased it as "stupid american bitch", cos honestly I dont know if she was north or south of the Mason Dixie line...Heck she coulda been a southerner eh....

All I know is some poor girl is dead and this other woman got fuck all punishment for ending a life!

[James Deuce]

Hey!

I was first.

I demand the greater share of indignant outrage.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=86738

[Forest]

you've made some haven't you?

Yes I've made mistakes before.

The difference is that I've never killed anyone.

[SARGE]

coulda been anyone yup....a spic, or an aussie, or a chink....shit coulda been a kiwi too...maybe I shoulda rephrased it as "stupid american bitch", cos honestly I dont know if she was north or south of the Mason Dixie line...Heck she coulda been a southerner eh....

All I know is some poor girl is dead and this other woman got fuck all punishment for ending a life!

please read my above post before you blow a gasket...

and BTW..


its the Mason DIXON line

[Bren]

Hey!

I was first.

I demand the greater share of indignant outrage.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=86738

My apoligy James, I did do a search, really!....you can have all the indignant outrage you want....:shutup:

[SARGE]

Yes I've made mistakes before.

The difference is that I've never killed anyone.

i have..

wasnt an accident either...

and let me tell you.. there isn't a day goes by that i dont feel it bro..

im sure that this dead woman's family isn't the only one suffering .. the woman who killed her will be suffering as well...

its not an easy thing to take a life.

[James Deuce]

ok.. lets put this in perspective for a moment

(DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT DEFENDING THIS WOMAN)

lets just say for a moment..that you are driving to the shops with the kids in the back of the car and you become distracted by something they do and ACCIDENTALLY cross the line and hit a bike head on, killing the rider,


how long are you going to volunteer to go to prison for?..

there was no malice in this womans actions.. no premeditation.. just an accident.... being from the States..i'll let you know that it IS very easy to end up in the wrong lane.. much like its going to be easy for a kiwi to end up on the wrong lane in the States...hell..i've been here since 01 and sometimes STILL do it..

you've made some haven't you?

Depending on which state she crossed the centre line in she would have been facing vehicular manslaughter with a mandatory jail term.

Remember that this woman has maintained her innocence from the beginning and has at times used the defence that she didn't know we drove on the left instead of the right.

It's not the same as being distracted and crossing the centreline.

For the record if I kill someone on the road I'd expect a prison sentence, but most of the softcocks we share our society with expect to get away with stuff like that. It's an "accident" after all. It couldn't possibly be that I'm not up to driving on the road, could it?

I personally think that we have some judges in this country who, if they can't prove that the motorcyclist was at fault, will go out of their way to send a clear message to temporary NZers that they are worthless for daring to ride a bike on the road and will hand out the softest sentence they can come up with.

[Bren]

please read my above post before you blow a gasket...

and BTW..


its the Mason DIXON line


yeah i knew that....just winding you up...seein if you would bite!

[SARGE]

yeah i knew that....just winding you up...seein if you would bite!



uh huh...


again..


brave boy..

[Ixion]

I am conflicted on the question of gaol sentences in such cases.

On the one hand, the wrong side of road driver is one of my great horrors. And I wish them to be severely punished.

But, on the other, I not not really see that much is achieved by a gaol sentence in a case like this.

Gaol should not just be a knee jerk response to a wish for vengeance. The purposes of a gaol sentence should be at least one of
Removing a dangerous person from the community (they cant commit more crimes while locked up)
Making a criminal consider that crime is not worth it
Rehabilitation (unlikely, but it can happen)
Deterring others who might be tempted to offend in like manner

None of these seem relevant in the present case . The mistake was a genuine one, the likelihood of that person ever doing so again is pretty near zero. I am sure that she does indeed regret what happened , and, unlike say a bank robber, she got nothing out of it . Rehabilitation is not relevant. And I doubt that anyone else would be influenced by the case, since noone (very few , anyway) actually INTENDS to cause a crash.

So, what purpose would a gaol sentence serve?

Perhaps better would be fine for life. Every week , for the rest of your life you pay x% of your income . A constant reminder and one that is more likely to make others stop and think. Though, a poor suggestion at best, I fear.

Any sentence in such a case is really shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Efforts would be better focused on prevention, than on retribution.

[Bonez]

Hey!

I was first.

I demand the greater share of indignant outrage.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=86738
REPOST!!!! would have had more effect.


Or maybe not......................

[SARGE]

I am conflicted on the question of gaol sentences in such cases.

On the one hand, the wrong side of road driver is one of my great horrors. And I wish them to be severely punished.

But, on the other, I not not really see that much is achieved by a gaol sentence in a case like this.

Gaol should not just be a knee jerk response to a wish for vengeance. The purposes of a gaol sentence should be at least one of
Removing a dangerous person from the community (they cant commit more crimes while locked up)
Making a criminal consider that crime is not worth it
Rehabilitation (unlikely, but it can happen)
Deterring others who might be tempted to offend in like manner

None of these seem relevant in the present case . The mistake was a genuine one, the likelihood of that person ever doing so again is pretty near zero. I am sure that she does indeed regret what happened , and, unlike say a bank robber, she got nothing out of it . Rehabilitation is not relevant. And I doubt that anyone else would be influenced by the case, since noone (very few , anyway) actually INTENDS to cause a crash.

So, what purpose would a gaol sentence serve?

Perhaps better would be fine for life. Every week , for the rest of your life you pay x% of your income . A constant reminder and one that is more likely to make others stop and think. Though, a poor suggestion at best, I fear.

Any sentence in such a case is really shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Efforts would be better focused on prevention, than on retribution.




i am reminded of my numerous tootles up into the waitak's..some Asshat takes a racing line into my lane..50%-60% of their car is hanging over the line..into a blind left-hander..mostly European Kiwi's coming from Piha..(yes i see them in the car as i pass..)


that smacks of either malice or stupidity...

[James Deuce]

So, what purpose would a gaol sentence serve?

Perhaps better would be fine for life. Every week , for the rest of your life you pay x% of your income . A constant reminder and one that is more likely to make others stop and think. Though, a poor suggestion at best, I fear.

Any sentence in such a case is really shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Efforts would be better focused on prevention, than on retribution.

Which is always the argument trotted out with a road death.

I come back to my original point.

If you drive on the road in NZ your life is worthless.

No one cares enough that anyone thinks should be a punishment for the crime.

If she bludgeoned someone to death we'd all think it natural that there was a prison sentence involved. Kill someone with a vehicle? Meh. Someone is still dead. People should be worth something. It isn't vengeance but a sense of natural justice that inspires my ranting.

I wonder what the point of road rules and Policing them actually is if all that is going to happen is a fine and maybe a loss of license for killing someone. The punishment for potentially killing someone is far greater than actually doing it. Most DIC and Careless/Reckless charges and boy racer laws result in a punishment far greater than actually going ahead and killing someone.

It does send a message to that girl's family that NZ society doesn't think that your daughter/sister was a worthwhile person.

[Ixion]

I am no proponent of liberality in punishment. I just don't see gaol as achieving very much in such a case. We may distinguish the bludgeoning case, since that involves intention, and probably premeditation. Therefore the deterrence factor of a gaol sentence may make others, tempted to the same offence, to hesitate and decide it's not worth it.

Which is not a factor in the road death case. Especially as the driver was probably not even being reckless, but genuinely , though mistakenly, thought she was doing everything correctly.

Punishment should fit the crime. In this case I do not see gaol as a good fit. Though I am somewhat at a lack as to suggest what would be a better fit.

[Forest]

banned from driving for 18 months

This is the bit that gets my goat.

I believe that anyone who takes a life through negligence on the roads should lose their driving license for life.

[Swoop]

yeah i knew that....just winding you up...seein if you would bite!
You are really brave...

i am reminded of my numerous tootles up into the waitak's..some Asshat takes a racing line into my lane..50%-60% of their car is hanging over the line..
There does seem to be an abundance of that recently.
The "1200cc engine + baked-bean-can exhaust" people are out there.

[James Deuce]

Punishment should fit the crime. In this case I do not see gaol as a good fit. Though I am somewhat at a lack as to suggest what would be a better fit.

I do, if only for wasting court time for claiming to initially be an uninvolved incorrectly identified perp, and then claiming to be a confused perp.

Ignorance is no excuse, however it was in this case and the reason simply seems to be that it was only a motorcyclist's pillion killed.

[SARGE]

You are really brave...

There does seem to be an abundance of that recently.
The "1200cc engine + baked-bean-can exhaust" people are out there.


nah.. its usually the ones in the Barina's, Hilux's toyotas...matter of fact.. i try and stay far to the left as i can on that road because EVERYONE cuts the corners




and yes... i have been known to bite

[Brooke]

What I do disagree with, is the womens attitude to the situation. If she'd have come clean and apologised from the start, it'd be totally different.
Was she doing something blatantly dangerous, other than slipping into the habit of driving on the wrong side of the road?

With you on this one. Could have been community service thrown in or something as well. But then again I don't know the whole story...

[Forest]

With you on this one. Could have been community service thrown in or something as well. But then again I don't know the whole story...

She did get sentenced to community service as well as the home detention.


As well as home detention, Blair must do 200 hours' community work and has been banned from driving for 18 months. She also agreed to pay $5200 - in weekly instalments of $100 - to the family as reparation. Smith's parents said they would donate the money to their sport-fanatic daughter's former Pakuranga Indoor Sports Club.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10544551

[pritch]

Well you made the fatal assumption that New Zealand has a FAIR justice system.

We don't actually have a Justice system fair or otherwise. We have a court system which is designed to make money for the people that work it. Sorry, work in it...

[wbks]

Is it just me or has the world gone to the dogs????

[/URL]
Name a time the world hasn't been 'to the dogs'
And sarge, why don't you whip out the EEV, hack into their CDI and shut the ignition off?...


Damn I've been playing too many video games.
I'm with who ever said that if you take a life through negligence on the road then you should have your license revoked for life. Wasn't there a story aaages ago when someone drink driving killed another driver, then after being convicted he ran over a pedestrian on the side of the road about 2 years later?
.

[wbks]

ok.. lets put this in perspective for a moment

(DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT DEFENDING THIS WOMAN)

lets just say for a moment..that you are driving to the shops with the kids in the back of the car and you become distracted by something they do and ACCIDENTALLY cross the line and hit a bike head on, killing the rider,


how long are you going to volunteer to go to prison for?..

there was no malice in this womans actions.. no premeditation.. just an accident.... being from the States..i'll let you know that it IS very easy to end up in the wrong lane.. much like its going to be easy for a kiwi to end up on the wrong lane in the States...hell..i've been here since 01 and sometimes STILL do it..

you've made some haven't you?You bring up a valid point but the fact is she did the crime, she should do the time...Not some watered down version of it because of what she did afterwards or the intent in it.

[Quasievil]

The driver didnt go out that day to intentionally Kill another Motorist, I travelled alot and particulary on small country roads in Europe I ended up on the wrong side, didnt even realise it, its not as easy as you think people, not all the time, I would have been pissed if I killed someone in my stupidity but getting 5 years for it would be about reasonable, what do you want blood ?

The fact is if you come from a country that drives on the wrong side simply you should be banned from gettting behind a wheel here in NZ, SIMPLE SOLUTION thats what needs to happen. Locking up people wont change a fucking thing.

[dipshit]

1: It was a tragic road accident.

2: Tourism is a big part of the NZ economy and I'm sure the government doesn't want to scare off any potential tourists with stories of long prison sentences for road accidents.

[Paul in NZ]

Hold on - good people screw up every day, sometimes the consequences are tragic..... Perhaps the judge saw something or knew something we didn't... Statistically WE screw up more than anyone else, that just makes us dumb, not bad...

Truely - its when people are deliberately dumb and bad that my blood boils...

[Coyote]

Don't want to upset the tourism industry do we? Not in this harsh economic climate.


It's ok. National won the election. Everything is going to be fine.:msn-wink:
With any luck. With the gap between Upper and Lower classes getting bigger, hopefully poorer people won't be able to afford having cars on the road.

[blairh]

This is disgusting.. Doesn't matter if she's a tourist, if she's driving on our road she abides by our laws. If I was that girl's family I would be absolutely fuming..

[scumdog]

If she bludgeoned someone to death we'd all think it natural that there was a prison sentence involved. Kill someone with a vehicle? Meh. Someone is still dead.

That's because it was seen as an accident.

Which it was not.

[riffer]

Sounds to me like we need two new charges here:

1. Vehicular manslaughter through careless or negligent action; and
2. Vehicular manslaughter through dangerous driving.

That should solve the problem. 7 years for the 1st. 12 years for the 2nd.

[Bren]

uh huh...


again..


brave boy..


You are really brave...



Where is that line between bravery and stupidity? I never know where it is!

[koba]

Cant be fucked reading past the first page before I post this but...

Does using the judical system as PUNISHMENT for an accident really help anyone?
Licence suspension and fines entirely appropriate sure but methinks jailtime wouldn't really hellp anyone EXCEPT real criminals who deserve to be in there for doing willfull naughty shit but are getting it easy coz of overcrowding and the like.
This sort of tragic shit can happen to any of us.
Consider if the last near miss you had on the road did turn to shit and YOU killed some kid who happend to be taking a piss on the side of the road where your bike slid off to...

A small lapse of concentration can happen to anyone, driving on the wrong side of the road is an extreme one but still possible.

Just thowing the idea out there so hopfully some people will think about it a bit. I dont really wan't to spend a million posts defending my position.

[koba]

I am no proponent of liberality in punishment. I just don't see gaol as achieving very much in such a case. We may distinguish the bludgeoning case, since that involves intention, and probably premeditation. Therefore the deterrence factor of a gaol sentence may make others, tempted to the same offence, to hesitate and decide it's not worth it.

Which is not a factor in the road death case. Especially as the driver was probably not even being reckless, but genuinely , though mistakenly, thought she was doing everything correctly.

Punishment should fit the crime. In this case I do not see gaol as a good fit. Though I am somewhat at a lack as to suggest what would be a better fit.

Ok, after a skim read that is what I MEANT to say.
Even with a fancy word for it and all.

[Sollyboy]

eye for an eye would be suitable, stupid bitch cant drive on the proper side of road

[jrandom]

If you drive on the road in NZ your life is worthless.

As I've stated before, I don't think you've ever successfully shown that the NZ judicial system treats unintentional vehicular homicide any less harshly than other forms.

If you really think that NZ doesn't 'punish' unintentional killings severely enough, argue that question on its own merits.

But whether or not it happens on the road is entirely a red herring.

If you disagree with that and really do think that fatal crimes of negligence committed on the road are punished out of proportion to such crimes committed elsewhere, you'll need specific comparative evidence, not just rhetoric, to be convincing about it.

[SARGE]

Where is that line between bravery and stupidity? I never know where it is!

cant be far off now.....

[Timber020]

I would be more willling to string up the tourist if she was drunk or speeding or pulling an U turn or wasnt a tourist from a RHS drive nation. I have driven in the US and canada quite a bit and have made simular mistakes (strangely enough the worst was when I came back to NZ) luckily without an accident. I drove more carefully than I do here but its tough to work on the other side of the road. Mistakes will happen. Giving someone a prison sentance isnt going to prevent such accidents unless it actually lowers the amount of tourists that come to NZ.


It sucks.

[Swoop]

Where is that line between bravery and stupidity? I never know where it is!
A good starting point would be between poking the bear with a pointed stick and shitting in your pants...

[dpex]

Always remember you are worthless when riding a motorcycle on a NZ road.

For some reason that seems to upset a number of KBers, but the NZ Judiciary obviously subscribes to the theory that motorcyclists deserve everything they get, including death.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4770196a11.html




James! You fail to understand the transgressor..aka the murderer, for that's what she was...was a woman. Not a man.

A man, within the dominions of Aotearoa, might shout 'Boo!' to a woman, and get six months PD for the pleasure.

Yet a woman who 'effectively' murders another...let's call it manslaughter before Katman gets in...and who asserts 'acrophobia' to the judge whom, clearly has no idea what acrophobia is and goes on to assert the wee dear might feel bad about being in prison on account of her acrophobia will make her feel unreasonably displaced.

The wee dear is, of course, a woman. Much like the woman who gave birth to a child. A living, breathing human being. She delivered into a dunny, pulled it out, still alive, plonked in a plastic bag and threw it out a window.

The judge decided that she 'murdered' this child under extreme stress. The stress, as it turned out, was based upon the fact the woman...a polynesian...would cause immense embarrassment to her family/tribe/town/you-name-it, back home in Samoa having been found out she'd been fucked.

The judge found her guilty of infanticide and promptly commuted a prison sentence to HD on the basis that when she had completed her studies in NZ she would be a shining light in her Samoan village.

She kills a child, knowingly. Get's HD because she will become a shining light after she gets her BA in bullshit?????

The men who beat Nia Glassie to death will do at least 17 years non-parole. They should do at least life with non-parole, and have their genitals removed with a rusty razor-blade. But will the judge assert they did what they did because they were stressed and, therefore, they deserve a break?

If a man had been at the wheel of the car and had killed Cheryl Blair, he'd be (and quite properly) facing 'hard-time.

But it wasn't a man. It was some simpering Julie Anne Smith, with acrophobia. And the limp-wristed, feminist acolyte judge, asserted Cheryl's life was worth less than Smith's life, on account of Smith was still alive and may yet contribute to the greater scheme.

It is for this sort of shit that I have posted, on various occassions, the willingness to get out there and protest, down and dirty.

But will anyone join me?

Nope.

Cheryl's death will be forgotten before the end of next week.

[Katman]

A load of shit.

No, she was a woman who made a tragic mistake and found herself on the wrong side of the road.

It wasn't a case of reckless use of a vehicle causing the death of another.

[dpex]

I would be more willling to string up the tourist if she was drunk or speeding or pulling an U turn or wasnt a tourist from a RHS drive nation. I have driven in the US and canada quite a bit and have made simular mistakes (strangely enough the worst was when I came back to NZ) luckily without an accident. I drove more carefully than I do here but its tough to work on the other side of the road. Mistakes will happen. Giving someone a prison sentance isnt going to prevent such accidents unless it actually lowers the amount of tourists that come to NZ.


It sucks.

Timber, are you having a secret affair with Katman?

What a load of crap.

Your attitude asserts, 'It ain't my fault. I was confused.'

Tell that to the relatives of Cheryl Blair.

If you're thast easily confused, stay off the fucking roads!

[Mom]

But will anyone join me?

You seriously need to talk a calm pill, a very large one infact. Far out, my advice to you is to go for a walk on the beach in bare feet, put yourself cloer to nature and relax!

[dpex]

That's because it was seen as an accident.

Which it was not.

Y'know, Scum, I can't help but think your lot should be pushing a bit harder to make women as accountable as men.

I realise that in the court system you have some time-serving, prosecutor who probably can't get a real job. But surely, mate, your lot should have just a bit more aggressive feelings toward tagging Julie Smith.

Can't you...and I mean you, personally...make an effort to get the CLO to appeal the decision?

Surely, your Sergeant has a dick.

C,mon man. If it had been you, you'd be doing three years for MS. Lose your job. General melt-down of your life.

[SARGE]

James! You fail to understand the transgressor..aka the murderer, for that's what she was...was a woman. Not a man.

A man, within the dominio


*****SNIP********


tten before the end of next week.




WOW... hate women much?

[wbks]

10$ says his wife cheated on him...

[PrincessBandit]

With any luck. With the gap between Upper and Lower classes getting bigger, hopefully poorer people won't be able to afford having cars on the road.
Not even! We'll jus' go steal one auw.

Sounds to me like we need two new charges here:

1. Vehicular manslaughter through careless or negligent action; and
2. Vehicular manslaughter through dangerous driving.

That should solve the problem. 7 years for the 1st. 12 years for the 2nd.
Unfortunately sleazy double dealing lawyers will always muddy the water so you'll never get a determination as to which it should be........


This is disgusting.. Doesn't matter if she's a tourist, if she's driving on our road she abides by our laws. If I was that girl's family I would be absolutely fuming..
Yes, and you could say the same to every innocent victims families who have suffered similar tragedies. God knows there have been enough of them.

That's because it was seen as an accident.

Which it was not.
Care to enlighten us o noble scummy, or are you unable to enlighten us further?


James! You fail to understand the transgressor..aka the murderer, for that's what she was...was a woman. Not a man. .........

But it wasn't a man. It was some simpering Julie Anne Smith, with acrophobia. And the limp-wristed, feminist acolyte judge, asserted Cheryl's life was worth less than Smith's life, on account of Smith was still alive and may yet contribute to the greater scheme.

Cheryl's death will be forgotten before the end of next week.

Well, I rarely would ever contemplate saying this in writing, but "fuck me". I can agree with what you're saying man but sheesh it's a bit OTT don't you think? I'm sure that there is plenty of evidence out there of women who have been fucked over by men, and then a second time by the judicial system so don't give us that "it's because she's a woman" bullshit.
Sadly, i do have to agree with your last sentence, but that's the way of life isn't it. A life sentence for those left behind, but the world carries on.
p.s. i must look up acrophobia - i don't know that one.


WOW... hate women much?
Beat me to it.

[dpex]

Cant be fucked reading past the first page before I post this but...

Does using the judical system as PUNISHMENT for an accident really help anyone?

Licence suspension and fines entirely appropriate sure but methinks jailtime wouldn't really help anyone EXCEPT real criminals who deserve to be in there for doing willfull naughty shit but are getting it easy coz of overcrowding and the like.
This sort of tragic shit can happen to any of us.
Consider if the last near miss you had on the road did turn to shit and YOU killed some kid who happend to be taking a piss on the side of the road where your bike slid off to...

A small lapse of concentration can happen to anyone, driving on the wrong side of the road is an extreme one but still possible.

Just thowing the idea out there so hopfully some people will think about it a bit. I dont really wan't to spend a million posts defending my position.

Before I go on, let me say that Beethoven had many critics. Hayden, Bach, and Mozart, to name but three. They all said his music was mush.

Now to the main event.

In fact, I agree with you. Punishment, or the prospect thereof, never works to avert a potential offender.

I think that punishment is there to give some comfort to the victim, and quite properly so.

But the prospect of punishment has rarely inhibited an offender. For example: In Singapore they hang an average of one person a day for drug offences. Does that deter the next offender? Nope. New day. Next hanging.

Why would you do it? ....deal drugs, I mean. Knowing your neck is on the line?

But they do. One a day.

Nope, the prospect of punishment never caused any fool to act wisely.

What's the answer? Damned if I know.

[Katman]

Before I go on, let me say that Beethoven had many critics. Hayden, Bach, and Mozart, to name but three. They all said his music was mush.



Really?

Bach had been dead for 20 years before Beethoven was even born.

[dpex]

No, she was a woman who made a tragic mistake and found herself on the wrong side of the road.

It wasn't a case of reckless use of a vehicle causing the death of another.


You complete arsehole. Tell that to her family.

[jrandom]

Women, etc...

As per my earlier response to Jim, if you're going to push this thesis, you'll need data to support it in the form of specific instances of men being sentenced more harshly than women in cases that were materially equivalent.

Without such supporting argument, you both come across as Chaps With Issues (tm), which isn't very convincing.

[Quasievil]

You complete arsehole. Tell that to her family.

Chill out dude ffs

bloody motorcyclists over rate themselves you and the rest of us bikers are just other road user like everyone else..........use the road at your peril.

bloody lynch mobs ;)

[Timber020]

You complete arsehole. Tell that to her family.

Didnt you learn that lifes not fair and shit happens? Chill out, grow up and try to be civil.

I take it you dont make mistakes? Youve never overcooked a corner, followed to close, failed to indicate, failed to give way, driven with a few under you belt, or ridden to fast for conditions or potential conditions?

[Katman]

I take it you dont make mistakes? Youve never overcooked a corner, followed to close, failed to indicate, failed to give way, driven with a few under you belt, or ridden to fast for conditions or potential conditions?

I think if you search through the threads you'll find dpex guilty of virtually every one of those.

[gunrunner]

When toy enter any country you obviously have to abide by all of those countrys rules etc....
This incident doesnt do much for the faith of this countries law .
Ask yourself this , would the verdict been the same if round that corner were a young family on pushbikes and that the result being that one of the kids was killed .

I think not .:argh:

[Jerry74]

The law is fucked... hopefully the new government might have some ball to try and change things a bit.. we live in hope.

[Katman]

Does it only piss us off when car drivers kill motorcyclists?

What about when motorcyclists kill motorcyclists?

[James Deuce]

As I've stated before, I don't think you've ever successfully shown that the NZ judicial system treats unintentional vehicular homicide any less harshly than other forms.

If you really think that NZ doesn't 'punish' unintentional killings severely enough, argue that question on its own merits.

But whether or not it happens on the road is entirely a red herring.

If you disagree with that and really do think that fatal crimes of negligence committed on the road are punished out of proportion to such crimes committed elsewhere, you'll need specific comparative evidence, not just rhetoric, to be convincing about it.

It wasn't an accident and she wriggled and wriggled. She made a mistake based in arrogance and ignorance, and the usual course of action is to punish the offender for wasting Police and Court time. Even that didn't happen, despite a guilty verdict.

I'm not providing rhetoric for your entertainment and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I've repeatedly stated in this thread that these are my own opinions, and I think you are being more than a little malicious in demanding that I provide "proof" to back up my opinion.

One of the things that people fail to understand with me (even though they know the details) is that I've been the victim in similar circumstances and watched the person that broke my neck and back, gave me a head injury that persists in blighting my enjoyment of life, ruined my career, and delayed starting a family only to find that during the enforced delay, starting a family had become a maybe 2 percent chance, get a slap on the wrist. That person caused untold heartache and went from being contrite at the accident scene and hospital the next morning to claiming in court I was speeding, drunk (couldn't get any sense out of me at the accident site - duh, you ran over my head), and deserved it because I was on a bike. Resussed 8 times in the ambulance. He was fined 600 dollars and disqualified for a month. He was DIC.

Next time you see moderate injuries in bike accident reports, someone is dealing with something like that. I stand by my opinion. I've seen the same tale repeated over and over. My brother in law was run over as a teenager outside St Pat's Silverstream, on the footpath, by a drunk. His head injury and internal bleeding meant his 6th form year was a waste of time. Short and medium term memory loss. The guy who did it was discharged on stress grounds. Failing marriage. Makes it OK to temporarily fuck up a kid's life.

They're not accidents, they never are. Someone screwed up, and the norm is that they don't own what they did. They start off all sorry, but the moment they realise that they might lose something, might be held accountable, they fight tooth and nail. Because we view MVAs as accidents they're just not considered as bad as an electrician reversing phase and neutral (accident, innit?), a fireman starting fires, or a nurse making a drug calculation error. I gave examples based in competence, because you'd expect other road users to be competent. But they don't have to be.

So my opinion is based entirely in emotion. I don't care that you want proof and I certainly don't care that you don't like my opinion. My opinion is that as a road user in NZ (it doesn't matter if you ride, drive, skateboard, cycle, or walk) your life is worthless. It's always an accident. The perpetrator always has extenuating circumstances on their side.

[James Deuce]

When toy enter any country you obviously have to abide by all of those countrys rules etc....
This incident doesnt do much for the faith of this countries law .
Ask yourself this , would the verdict been the same if round that corner were a young family on pushbikes and that the result being that one of the kids was killed .

I think not .:argh:

Yes, it would have.

[jrandom]

I don't care that you want proof and I certainly don't care that you don't like my opinion.

I don't dislike your opinion. It just won't stand up outside of the unique arena of your experiences.

Perhaps I'm being a cunt to point that out. I dunno.

Comes down to the ancient question of whether justice should incorporate retribution.

Frankly, I'm not prepared to comment on that one.

[Kiwibacon]

Ill ask my friends on the server i belong to in the States what the punishment is....( they military/cop/related services) probably a lot stiffer than here i bet.
But I do kno that from state to state if differs.

[Da Bird]

But it wasn't a man. It was some simpering Julie Anne Smith, with acrophobia. And the limp-wristed, feminist acolyte judge, asserted Cheryl's life was worth less than Smith's life, on account of Smith was still alive and may yet contribute to the greater scheme.

It is for this sort of shit that I have posted, on various occassions, the willingness to get out there and protest, down and dirty.

But will anyone join me?

Nope.

Cheryl's death will be forgotten before the end of next week.

Cheryl Blair is the offender... Julie Anne Smith is the dead pillion. Just thought I would clear that up.

[Katman]

This site stinks of hypocrisy.

[PrincessBandit]

Cheryl Blair is the offender... Julie Anne Smith is the dead pillion. Just thought I would clear that up.

Well there ya go then. I didn't even spot that and I quoted him!

[Katman]

Cheryl Blair is the offender... Julie Anne Smith is the dead pillion. Just thought I would clear that up.

That's dpex for you.

[Squiggles]

A good trick for bikers coming here from the US / those going that way would be to attach some sort of trinket to one of your mirrors, can serve as a reminder of which side you should be on etc...

[Forest]

A good trick for bikers coming here from the US / those going that way would be to attach some sort of trinket to one of your mirrors, can serve as a reminder of which side you should be on etc...

Whenever I have hired a rental bike in NZ, there's usually been a sticker of an arrow with "keep left" on the instruments.

[James Deuce]

I don't dislike your opinion. It just won't stand up outside of the unique arena of your experiences.

Perhaps I'm being a cunt to point that out. I dunno.

Comes down to the ancient question of whether justice should incorporate retribution.

Frankly, I'm not prepared to comment on that one.


No you're not being a cunt. But you are avoiding the question.

I have another Brother in law who lost an arm and a leg after having him and his VFR400 crushed into a bridge railing by a long term, low life Wairarapa crim. He's only alive because he fell into the stream below that was flooded by snow melt and it dropped his core temp and reduced his arterial blood loss to a trickle. The crim in question was utterly out of his tree on alcohol and his "product". Hes travelling fast enough to barrel roll his panel van into an adjoining paddock. TV3 had the temerity to paint that low-life as some sort of victim when they did a story on the accident and made the Bro in law look like a 2 bit backwoods hick who deserved it.

My point is, and everyone keeps ignoring it, that every other competency tested skill or profession in this country carries heavy penalties if you get it wrong.

Except a drivers license. You can be demonstrably incompetent and it just doesn't matter what you do to anyone else.

It has nothing to do with retribution. It has everything to do with living in a society that is two faced enough to mete out "justice" to a nurse who makes a drug error and kills someone, but can't stomach the thought of applying "justice" to injuries and deaths caused on the road. There is a lot of pointless expenditure trying to convince people that speed and drinking (and increasingly drug use) do not mix, but as "proven" by the pathetically enormous list of pointless convictions given to the driver who led to BADD being created, it just doesn't matter. You can be so horribly incompetent that you kill and maim at will on the road and no one has the will to stop labelling stuff that happens on the road anything other than an accident.

It's a few simple questions that people keep trying to muddy the answer to.

Why is a human life worth less on the road in NZ than in any other situation? Why does no one (for all practical intents and purposes) regard driving or riding as a responsibility? Why is incompetent driving behaviour tolerated?

[jrandom]

It has everything to do with living in a society that is two faced enough to mete out "justice" to a nurse who makes a drug error and kills someone...

Is it?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4764119a11.html

(Where an 'apology' was all that was necessary in a fatal case of 'true human error'.)

Like I said, I do wonder whether your perception of the differentiation is valid. I'm prepared to admit that it is - I just haven't seen anything myself that indicates it.

[Ixion]

But your examples are not entirely analogous.

The person who injured your brother in law did so after a series of volitional acts . Getting drunk, taking drugs etc. In such a case a "lock him up and throw away the key" punishment may be of benefit to society.(Personally, I'd say hang him, gaol costs) . Others who are about to make similar decisions may think twice. "Hey mate,want a drink". "yeah sure - uh , no wait, maybe not, I was watching the story about that guy they hanged for drunk driving earlier, guess you can't be too careful eh".

But in the tragic case of your original post, there was no point at which the woman would have made that "oh - no wait -- " moment. She did not realsie she was doing anything wrong.

You use also the analogy of a nurse who makes a drug error. But that is also not quite analogous. It would be if the Blair woman had been a professional driver, in the course of her job. But she was not. Would you argue for the same draconian punishment for the 80 year old lady who gets muddled and accidently gives her 85 year old husband an incorrect (and fatal) does of his prescription medicine ? (It does happen) .

Where there is some volitional point at which behaviour can be altered, draconian punishment may work (though at an overall cost that society may not be prepared to tolerate). But where there is no volition, no malice, no realisation of negligence, even the most condign punishment will send no useful message.

[Indoo]

My point is, and everyone keeps ignoring it, that every other competency tested skill or profession in this country carries heavy penalties if you get it wrong.

Except a drivers license. You can be demonstrably incompetent and it just doesn't matter what you do to anyone else.


I think you've probably written a couple of the most heartfelt and completely accurate posts on here in a long time. I don't think some people realise that justice is more than solely what is 'best' for the offender and has to also incorporate the victims views and how the sentence will affect them for the rest of their lives.

I can only imagine the anger I would feel if my wife or other family member were killed in similar circumstances and the 'offender' denied any culpability, dragged on the legal process for as long as she could and then was sentenced to such a pathetic sentence. It makes a complete mockery of the pain and suffering the victims go through, if this lady did have problems in understanding which side of the road she should drive then why in the hell did she drive?

Unfortunately this is a common theme as per this editorial http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10544539

I wouldn't mind the sentence so much if they incorporated life time disqualifications, yet trusting these people to drive again, ever?

[James Deuce]

Is it?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4764119a11.html

(Where an 'apology' was all that was necessary in a fatal case of 'true human error'.)

Like I said, I do wonder whether your perception of the differentiation is valid. I'm prepared to admit that it is - I just haven't seen anything myself that indicates it.
Ah yes, dig a little deeper, and you'll find that Nurse has been struck off. She isn't a Nurse anymore. The apology was deemed necessary to avoid a jail term. Yes, I do have inside information on that one.

[jrandom]

Ah yes, dig a little deeper, and you'll find that Nurse has been struck off. She isn't a Nurse anymore.

Well, that's hardly surprising.

But losing one's job as a result of a fatal incident isn't really that bad, is it?

I mean, you could argue that a six month custodial sentence (whether or not home detention is granted) is a fair bit worse than having to wander off and reboot your career without any criminal convictions on record.


The apology was deemed necessary to avoid a jail term.

"You killed a man!"

"Oh. Woops. So sorry."

"Oh, you're sorry? That's OK then. You can't keep your job, but there'll be no criminal charges. Ta ra!"

See what I mean?

It's just not that harsh. She would have gotten off worse if she'd driven drunk and killed someone.

[James Deuce]

Where there is some volitional point at which behaviour can be altered, draconian punishment may work (though at an overall cost that society may not be prepared to tolerate). But where there is no volition, no malice, no realisation of negligence, even the most condign punishment will send no useful message.
I know what you are saying and in ideal circumstances I'm all for judging a case to suit and modifying (or removing) punishment as necessary. However volitional the bad decisions made by people who contributed to the three incidents I can relate personally, they essentially escaped even a reasonable punishment that would meet NZ's minimum punishments for driving under the influence.

I rather suspect that my real question, which always gets completely ignored whenever I bring it up keeps getting lost by the noise I create around the issue whenever it comes up.

Why does NZ society condone death and injury on the road to the point where it is seldom, if ever, felt necessary to punish the offender?

I don't accept that there is a difference between a professional and unprofessional licensed road user. The qualifications necessary to hold the license are the same for everyone. Surely everyone who uses the road should be aiming for the highest standards possible, and if they are incapable of meeting those, then they need regular competency based assessment? The only difference between a professional and "unprofessional" road user is experiential.

[jrandom]

Why does NZ society condone death and injury on the road to the point where it is seldom, if ever, felt necessary to punish the offender?

And my answer is, for the same reason it 'condones' (that term is hyperbole, but never mind) unintentional homicide in all forms.

Like your nursing example.

I don't necessarily advocate punishment, but I agree with your points regarding folk being qualified or unqualified to drive, and lengthy disqualifications followed by intensive (and expensive) training and certification would certainly be appropriate for any fatal on-road fuckups.

But jail terms? No point whatsoever in some cases. Recividist drunk drivers already get jail terms; perhaps they should be longer?

On an aside, I note that this issue, while apparently personally meaningful to you, wasn't important enough to get you to switch your vote away from the party that created the softcock sentencing regime we live under.

:sherlock:

[yungatart]

No, she was a woman who made a tragic mistake and found herself on the wrong side of the road.

It wasn't a case of reckless use of a vehicle causing the death of another.
What about "personal responsibility" (TM Katman) or does that only apply to motorcyclists who make mistakes???


This site stinks of hypocrisy.

The site doesn't reek of hypocrisy..some members do...and you, Katman, would be the biggest culprit!

What about her personal responsibility for fucking up and klilling someone..and why aren't you pushing your barrow now?

Your double standards are showing..again!

[Katman]

Your double standards are showing..again!

Not at all.

(I was unaware that the woman had attempted to absolve herself of responsibility for the accident and that removes any sympathy I might have felt for her but.........)

The hypocrisy that I've alluded to is the attitude that seems to be displayed by so many on here that a car driver should be crucified for a tragic mistake yet they'll choose to conveniently ignore a (completely hypothetical - happy mods?) motorcyclist's act of recklessness that results in the death of someone else.

(And I don't include Jim in that hypocrisy - I know where he stands on the reckless behaviour of motorcyclists).

[Kiwibacon]

Heres what 1 of my American friends told me when I asked him about the penalties
Here in Chicago, we get senior citizens who drive up the sidewalk and plow through the people walking through the markets. They get a "Poor old guy probably got confused" and no revocation. Injuries and death are apparently of no consideration here when you can make yourself sound sympathetic it seems.

Or you could take my grandfather who drove his 33 foot motor home down the wrong side of the freeway (Thanks God no accident) and didn't get revoked or even a citation. Funny thing that Alzheimer's and the unwillingness for anyone to do anything about it.

[James Deuce]

And my answer is, for the same reason it 'condones' (that term is hyperbole, but never mind) unintentional homicide in all forms.

Like your nursing example.

That example is actually an example of the hypocrisy that has crept in to professional standards in NZ. As you know, Heather is a nurse and two of her classmates (from 25 years ago) have been jailed for manslaughter. Nurses are not exempt. The only reason the Wanganui Nurse "only" lost her registration, was because the tourist in question was already suffering from multiple health issues that were going to cause his death in the near future.




On an aside, I note that this issue, while apparently personally meaningful to you, wasn't important enough to get you to switch your vote away from the party that created the softcock sentencing regime we live under.

:sherlock:

How do you know how I voted? Why do people leap to conclusions based on Internet posts?

[Badjelly]

OK James (Jim? Jim2, JD?) what do you think would be an appropriate punishment for the woman referred to in your original post?

[Mystic13]

Okay, I thought I'd join in this polarising argument...

1/ Our laws sentence on level of intention and that's why a bank robber gets more time than a white collar criminal who steals more because the later can usually argue they didn't intend to it just happened and snowballed due to stress gambling addictions or whatever.... I have opinions about this but I'll keep them out.

2/ If this lady had crashed into another car and a person had died I expect the law would have treated this the same. This is not a motorcyclist thing but a law thing.

3/ Is the law around driver responsibility too light. I think it is. If you don't make it clear and punish accordingly then people don't treat it so seriously. It's not at the front of peoples minds that there are stiff sentences for vehicular manslaugher and so they don't drive as defensively as they need to. IMHO.

Going through the Karangahake Gorge on the way to Napier this weekend (yes I know it's not the quick way but I'm on a bike and the ride was more important than the destination) the BMW in front of me had to drive half off the road to avoid a jerk who decided to pass cars going around a corner and coming toward us. For an instant I'm thinking "shit, what's the beemer driving doing he's going to crash off the road then I see the jerk in the car coming toward me and I join the beemer driver in diving left. My thoughts afterwards were if the Beemer and this guy collided I'd have struggled to find a piece of road to drive around on. This could have had a bad ending.

It's not in the public consciousness enough that they need to drive to protect themselves and other users. The person (jerk) that had made the bad move may have become impatient sitting behind cars, they may have made the move on one car only to find they sped up and closed the gap, they may have misjudged... There needs to be a greater awareness of respecting others on the road. If that awareness has to be bought about with tougher sentences then that's fine.

I think the driving mentallity here needs a good working over and maybe advertising campaigns are in order. In some countries, you can drive as slow as you want, but it's illegal to hold up more than 5 vehicles. The slow driver always pulls over.

We passed a cue of some 30 odd vehicles south of Tirau heading back to Auckland only to find a white hiace type van at the front of the cue doing 60kmph on the open road. On the back of the van was written in red spray can paint "Hug us We're German". I was thinking that would be the last thing many drivers behind them would want to do.

I feel for the family and partners loss. It's really sad. I can't comment on Cheryl Blair because I don't know the case and wasn't there. In some litigious cultures you're taught to deny all responsibility or you have insurance issues. It's possible Cheryl was following that form and then following local legal advice. The court system is adversarial and encourages division and denial.

There are many possible things going on. The question asked was do we need a change in terms of vehicle deaths and the answer is yes. It needs to come with sentencing and advertising and establishing a different attitiude.

Anyone up for a coffee? I'll have white and no sugar thanks.

[Quasievil]

boring ..........where is the unsubscribe button

[James Deuce]

Thread tools.

[gunrunner]

The law is fucked... hopefully the new government might have some ball to try and change things a bit.. we live in hope.

Only if John Keys rides , that is :gob:

[Swoop]

This site stinks of hypocrisy.
So you are leaving then?

Ta ta.

Bye.

[SPman]

I don't accept that there is a difference between a professional and unprofessional licensed road user. The qualifications necessary to hold the license are the same for everyone. Surely everyone who uses the road should be aiming for the highest standards possible, and if they are incapable of meeting those, then they need regular competency based assessment? The only difference between a professional and "unprofessional" road user is experiential.And therein lies the problem. As long as you can generally steer a vehicle approximately on your side of the road at a speed at or lower than the proscribed limits, officialdom decrees you are an acceptable driver! As long as beauracracy has this view, and most of those in charge have similar standards of driving, anyone who "loses control" is looked on leniently...."oh you poor bastard....it could have happened to anyone", when, in a society that actually took driving seriously, the abysmally low standards of control and behaviour would be a number one priority! (NZ's not alone in this - Aus is just as bad)

I know how easy it is to drive onto the "wrong" side of the road in a foreign country...particularly if you are tired and revert to basic default settings, if only momentarily...(thank god drivers in Vegas are generally polite and laid back.......),but I don't see how a situation like this equates with a fuelled up driver running someone else down, in terms of demanding years in prison!

New Zealanders are all too keen to toss people inside for anything they can think of, and, under Key I see the "hang em high" and "throw away the key" brigade are now at full steam ahead! Guess he needs more contracts for construction firms to build more prisons.....

[imdying]

Always remember you are worthless when riding a motorcycle on a NZ road.Unattractive thought or not, have you considered that, motorcyclist or not, your life actually is worthless.

[Pussy]

And therein lies the problem. As long as you can generally steer a vehicle approximately on your side of the road at a speed at or lower than the proscribed limits, officialdom decrees you are an acceptable driver! As long as beauracracy has this view, and most of those in charge have similar standards of driving, anyone who "loses control" is looked on leniently...."oh you poor bastard....it could have happened to anyone", when, in a society that actually took driving seriously, the abysmally low standards of control and behaviour would be a number one priority! (NZ's not alone in this - Aus is just as bad)


The general standard of driving skills in NZ is VERY low

[Katman]

Unattractive thought or not, have you considered that, motorcyclist or not, your life actually is worthless.

I'd be more inclined to use the word priceless.

[dpex]

...New Zealanders are all too keen to toss people inside for anything they can think of, and, under Key I see the "hang em high" and "throw away the key" brigade are now at full steam ahead! Guess he needs more contracts for construction firms to build more prisons.....

I say again, even premeditated criminal actions are rarely modified by any prospect of lawful sanction. And so 'accidental' actions which result in harm to another are even further away from the day-to-day reality of ordinary folk.

Other than for suicide cases, it's fair to assert that nobody goes out of their way to become involved in a crash. So what are the causes? Lack of concentration, skill, experience, tolerance, perception, understanding? The list goes on. Then factor in stress, prescription drugs, non-prescription drugs, booze, tiredness, eyesight issues...that list goes on.

But, at the end of the day, personal responsibility for each and every action we take must determine the outcome of our tomorrows.

To lose a loved-one, even to natural causes, is often devastating to those left alive. To lose one as a result of what is deemed to be a senseless act is often beyond description in terms of the pain suffered by family and friends.

The very natural reaction of most, when confronted with a senseless loss of any sort, is revenge.

Someone steals your bike. First rage flows. Then dark thoughts about what you'll do to the fucker if ever you find him, follow. Revenge is a human response as natural as needing to piss.

I cannot imagine there being one person on this site who hasn't, at some time past, had a close shave and thought, "Jesus, and that was my fault".

Thus from close-shave to full impact resolves the term, "But there for the grace of God go I."

Some, at fault, who cause a major will forever justify their position and simply refuse to accept responsibility. Others will be devastated for life.

No amount of harsher and harsher penalty, no amount of 'ejacashun' will eliminate vehicular collisions. They will remain a fact of life till some bright bugger invents something which reduces collision damage to zero.

But who are the victims? In all cases it is the bereaved. In many cases it is also the causer.

If the dead girl's parents and family could be sufficiently satisfied that the causer was suffering as much as they, then would they want a harsh sentence? Probably not because they would see natural justice unfolding.

But the causer in this instance fought hard for absolution before being (probably) advised by her brief to fess and look as contrite as possible.

That is the act of one who is suffering only from a fear of penalty, not from accepting she took the life of another and trashed another family in the process.

But how does one identify one type from the other?

The entire matter of 'justice' is as vexing now as it was in the days of Plato.

I think this would be a good time to let this one go, J, and just get on, lest it should start eating your soul.

[riffer]

James' point is absolutely valid.

The problem is, he's asking the wrong people.

Start with this guy:

* Minister of Transport
* Minister for Communications and Information Technology
* Associate Minister of Finance
* Associate Minister for Infrastructure
Email: steven.joyce@national.org.nz
Phone: (04)TBA (Parliament)
Phone: (04)8947026 (Electorate)

As the new Minister of Transport the buck now stops with him.

Also, try (Minister of ACC):

Email: nick.smith@national.org.nz
Website: www.nick4nelson.co.nz (http://www.nick4nelson.co.nz/)
Phone: (04)4719291 (Parliament)
Phone: (03)5472314 (Electorate)

[dpex]

I'd be more inclined to use the word priceless.

At long last we agree on something. Your life is priceless. I cannot think of any currency which is sufficiently divisible to have just one part of it to describe your value.

Perhaps there is, somewhere out there, a culture which trades value for value using used toilet paper as currency. If such were the case, then your worth would be measured as one square milimetre of dung-covered paper.

[jrandom]

... two of her classmates (from 25 years ago) have been jailed for manslaughter.

Interesting.

I guess there could be some substance to the idea that the banality of death on the road has led to it being treated overly-lightly by the judiciary. Stiff sentences are available, but they don't seem to get handed out, do they?


How do you know how I voted? Why do people leap to conclusions based on Internet posts?

I don't know how you voted, but your tenor in the election discussions was anti-National.

Not that I'm a National voter myself. Just, y'know, just sayin'. A vote, direct or tactical, for a National gubmint in the last election was the only way of moving toward less lenient sentencing overall.

[MSTRS]

Unattractive thought or not, have you considered that, motorcyclist or not, your life actually is worthless.

I read somewhere (doing cheesecutter research) that a road death costs the country somewhere in the nature of $3.4M.

[James Deuce]

Unattractive thought or not, have you considered that, motorcyclist or not, your life actually is worthless.

I know it to be so.

[MSTRS]

I know it to be so.

Those that know and love us don't think so...

[James Deuce]

Yes, but they'll get by without us. We're not entirely indispensable.

[James Deuce]

I read somewhere (doing cheesecutter research) that a road death costs the country somewhere in the nature of $3.4M.

It's an average based on pretty arbitrary figures like remaining years as a taxpayer, debts, and potential increases in earnings based on the national average wage.

[James Deuce]

I don't know how you voted, but your tenor in the election discussions was anti-National.



No it wasn't, it was pro Labour's social policy in regard to disabled children.

[jrandom]

No it wasn't, it was pro Labour's social policy in regard to disabled children.

No, it was anti National's social policy in regard to disabled children. A subtle but meaningful difference.

[jrandom]

Yes, but they'll get by without us.

Fuck them, I won't get by without me.

:doobey:

[Animal]

The general standard of driving skills in NZ is VERY low

No worse than in Western Austruckingfailia. There are no shortage of brain-dead morons behind wheels out here either. Not that it makes it okay.

[Timber020]

Look at the guy who ignored instructions, drank, doped and drowned his 2 kids in a boat he shouldnt have been in charge of.

Didnt he only get community service?

[James Deuce]

No, it was anti National's social policy in regard to disabled children. A subtle but meaningful difference.

That's your perception. It's not mine.

[JohnR]

I think the driving mentallity here needs a good working over...

Anyone up for a coffee? I'll have white and no sugar thanks.

... and the "qualification" to drive.

Think on this... your driving licence is suspended:scratch:when you commit offences of a dangerous or careless nature.
What if, rather than just be given your licence back after the required "sentence" you where invited to reapply for a licence? New test and all the costs etc:headbang:
A bit more of a deterent maybe?
Of course the test would be the new revised driver test with an examiner who knew you were a disqualified driver:innocent:

[JohnR]

I read somewhere (doing cheesecutter research) that a road death costs the country somewhere in the nature of $3.4M.

There's the answer then... that's what she should pay!

[imdying]

I'd be more inclined to use the word priceless.

I know it to be so.
Sorry, that was meant to be 'worth less' :doh:

[davebullet]

Sorry if already answered above...

What is the application / test process in NZ for an American full licensed driver (assuming she had a full USA car license)?

I would hope the simple fact that drivers from countries who use opposite sides of the road; mandates the driver must go through a learner process (ie. start from scratch again).

If an American tourist can come here and just hop in a car like a fully licensed driver, that's akin to me saying "gee - I've got a car license, I can now hop in a heavy articulated truck and just drive that around"....

[SPman]

Sorry if already answered above...

What is the application / test process in NZ for an American full licensed driver (assuming she had a full USA car license)? - If you've got a full license, you can use that if in the country on holiday. If you're staying, then you need your license validated to a local one

I would hope the simple fact that drivers from countries who use opposite sides of the road; mandates the driver must go through a learner process (ie. start from scratch again).

If an American tourist can come here and just hop in a car like a fully licensed driver, that's akin to me saying "gee - I've got a car license, I can now hop in a heavy articulated truck and just drive that around"....No it's not - It's like a Kiwi rider going to the States or Europe and expecting to ride/drive .

[mstriumph]

I am disgusted at this....some stupid yankee bitch gets 6 months home detention for killing a pillion passenger...FFS, whats a human life worth!!!



Is it just me or has the world gone to the dogs????




i've driven/ridden on the right as a tourist in europe and the states
- even if you are normally adequate as a driver on your own turf it's chilling to realise how EASY it is to 'revert' to your normal, left-side driving when you are even the slightest bit tired or distracted ........ and how dangerous this would be in traffic

no - it HASN'T happened to me - but it very well could have, and it HAS happened [luckily with no ill consequences...] to drivers whose skills i respect

the incident reported on is sad beyond belief :( and the fault is squarely with the car driver ......

but i can't call her names
because i'm too busy thinking "there, but for the grace ..... go I"

[Badjelly]

The incident reported on is sad beyond belief :( and the fault is squarely with the car driver ...... But i can't call her names because i'm too busy thinking "there, but for the grace ..... go I"

That's the point of righteous indignation: it distracts us from pondering our own fallibility.

[jrandom]

Look at the guy who ignored instructions, drank, doped and drowned his 2 kids in a boat he shouldnt have been in charge of.

Didnt he only get community service?

Mmhmm. Correct.

Care to comment on this one, Jim?

[Mom]

I say again,

lest it should start eating your soul.

Have you thought about yoga?

[davebullet]

If you've got a full license, you can use that if in the country on holiday. If you're staying, then you need your license validated to a local one

Then (unless I've misunderstood you), our laws are absolutely absurd.

So the NZ law states a USA visitor / tourist can drive around on their own USA license without any proof they understand our NZ roadrules, but if they are staying, then they need validation?

That's like saying it's safe to do 400Km/h if your only doing it for 10 seconds, but that speed for 1 minute is risky.

I mean, you either prove you know the road rules, or you don't. How long you visit a country for and how long you are driving, the risk is there.

Or... was the fact the citizen in question was from a powerful and influential country, meaning no NZ lawmaker, politician nor judge would dare impose a sentence for fear of repercussion?

[mstriumph]

Have you thought about yoga? .... nooo - i'm not fond of dairy ....

oh :mellow: .... YOGA ....

sorry

[mstriumph]

Then (unless I've misunderstood you), our laws are absolutely absurd.

So the NZ law states a USA visitor / tourist can drive around on their own USA license without any proof they understand our NZ roadrules, but if they are staying, then they need validation?................

Or... was the fact the citizen in question was from a powerful and influential country, meaning no NZ lawmaker, politician nor judge would dare impose a sentence for fear of repercussion?

:calm: no - it doesn't mean that
i know it doesn't make it any more sensible - but exactly the same applies when WE go THERE ......... it's an inter-country courtesy thingy

[Badjelly]

Then (unless I've misunderstood you), our laws are absolutely absurd.

So the NZ law states a USA visitor / tourist can drive around on their own USA license without any proof they understand our NZ roadrules...

So what do you suggest we do about tourists who want to drive rental vehicles in our country? Require them to whip down to the local LTSA office and pass a test? Or just forbid them?

I have hired vehicles in Australia and USA. They didn't ask me to pass a test.

And besides, the accident described in the original post was caused by a person failing to remember to drive on the left-hand side of the road. You can't test for that.

[imdying]

Perhaps making GPS compulsory for overseas visitors would be a start? It just takes one more item out of the work load loop IME. We drove around the California coast without trouble, and I attribute at least a little of that to not having to worry about where I was headed. A big feck off sticker on the dashboard of a car with an arrow pointing left and 'KEEP LEFT' in bold might help too?

[vifferman]

I have hired vehicles in Australia and USA. They didn't ask me to pass a test.
I've hired them in Australia, Mrka and Belgium, and all they cared about was my money and driver's licence. It would've actually been a good idea if they asked me about road rules, because I forgot to ask. I had to ask a cop in San Jose how the rules worked, and in Belgium I was out on the road and suddently realised I had no idea. :eek5:
So, I thought I'd just observe drivers at intersections, see if I could work it out. Aparently, Belgians have no idea what the road rules are either! :crazy:


And besides, the accident described in the original post was caused by a person failing to remember to drive on the left-hand side of the road. You can't test for that.
Many Noo Zilunders can't keep left either. And even our traffic police seem to have probelsm sometimes with remembering the basics, so we should expect the odd mistake from furriners.

[Stormer]

I seem to remember a similar thing that happened just out of Gladstone (Wairarapa).
Yank woman tourist or whatever came upon a group of bikes, swerved onto the WRONG SIDE OF THE ROAD, killing one and seriously injuring others.
I rode past the scene a few days later and the police road paint markings and bits of fairing all over the place was kinda sobering.
Not sure what happened to her, maybe just pissed off back to the US...??
Riding has enough dangers already without having to deal with this shit!!