My idea of Production 600 rules

[Sketchy_Racer]

I feel NZ racing would benefit from a class like this run alongside the current Sports Production class

refer to attachment

Cheers,

-Glen

[Shaun]

Very good Glen thanks very much mate for taking the time.

[steveyb]

Yeah, nice work Glen.
You clearly have too much time on your hands, but at least now it is being well spent!!

Cheers
Steve

[AlBundy]

Isn't this where supersport started from, with the exception of pipes and suspension?

This is a true representation of what's available and would indeed show rider talent, as opposed to someone having a distinct advantage due to better suspension or tuning etc...

Also, anyone with a stock bike can theoretically buy a set of glass fairings and go racing, without being totally disadvantaged...

Well done for compiling it.

[madkeenandy]

nice work :yes:

[vtec]

I like it... I like it a lot. Didn't mention brake lines though?

I can't decide whether braided aftermarket should be allowed or not.

[quallman1234]

Does now.
Are the New 600's running braided* brake line's stock nowadays?

This is basically 150SS for 600's.Like it should be* But the rules have changed overtime.

[Shaun P]

I think its going a bit far - should be allowed braided lines in the front and suspension revalving on the stock units and oem replacement parts from previous years, and adjustable rear sets. These would represent minimal cost.

Nice work though

[Skunk]

I think its going a bit far - should be allowed braided lines in the front and suspension revalving on the stock units and oem replacement parts from previous years, and adjustable rear sets. These would represent minimal cost.

Nice work though
Nah, stock as far as you can go. Good work Sketchy.

[Sketchy_Racer]

I like it... I like it a lot. Didn't mention brake lines though?

I can't decide whether braided aftermarket should be allowed or not.

Yeah it mentions brake lines. Section 3-6. "Front and rear hydraulic brake lines must remains stock"

I also thought about this one. But it's not the standard lines that would be the problem surely? Bike mags rave about the performance of modern brakes from their tests at tracks using stock equipment.


Does now.
Are the New 600's running brake line's stock nowadays?

This is basically 150SS for 600's. But the rules have changed overtime.

I hope they come stock with brake lines!!:crazy: If you mean do they come with braided lines? Then No i don't think they do. Maybe a couple odd brands.


I think its going a bit far - should be allowed braided lines in the front and suspension revalving on the stock units and oem replacement parts from previous years, and adjustable rear sets. These would represent minimal cost.

Nice work though

apart from the valving in the suspension, How important are the lines? have you raced on both stock and braided? Also, why the need for adjustable rear sets? are the stock one's to low and deck out?

Cheers,

-Glen

[cowpoos]

I like it... I like it a lot. Didn't mention brake lines though?

I can't decide whether braided aftermarket should be allowed or not.
stock lines are absaloutly fine...

[wharfy]

looks good to me :)

Changing spring rates is good for us folk with superior gravitational attraction :)

[CHOPPA]

Looks good to me! People are gonna cheat though....

Also to include the ducati 848 could be a good idea

[dhunt]

Looks good :niceone: . Will make good close, fun racing if it takes off. Less things to worry about/change (wets etc) will make it more fun and easier to concentrate on actually racing. Definitely something I would be interested in.

Are these the rules you are trying to get your class to run Shaun?


Looks good to me! People are gonna cheat though....

What about tweaking the stock ecu? Yoshi Box being the simplest option to more complicated but very possible reprogramming the stock ecu. ie increase rev limit, change spark advance, fueling etc. All very possible but next to impossible to check.

[vtec]

What about tweaking the stock ecu? Yoshi Box being the simplest option to more complicated but very possible reprogramming the stock ecu. ie increase rev limit, change spark advance, fueling etc. All very possible but next to impossible to check.

Nope, no mods allowed. There may be some getting away with cheating. But do you know how to modify the stock ecu? If it's allowed, everyone has to do it, that's the difference. I just want to ride baby.

[Robert Taylor]

I feel NZ racing would benefit from a class like this run alongside the current Sports Production class

refer to attachment

Cheers,

-Glen

Actually it wouldnt level the playing field as much as you think. For example riders that are tall with lot of body mass ( eg Nick Cole ) would not only require firmer springing but also damping upgrades. Damping is as much overcome by body mass as is springing.
Stock engines yes, but allow an aftermarket muffler and fairings( to reduce the replacement cost of crash damage ) aftermarket ECU ( to sort out the dodgy fueling on some models ) rework / replace fork internals ( various options available) and aftermarket rear shock ( so that spring rates and valving can be customised to the rider stats and style )
What is often overlooked is that unlike many other components aftermarket suspension has residual value in that you can resell it. A very strong second hand market has been created. Answering for myself I am very active in that market as it better suits many peoples budgets.

[Robert Taylor]

I think its going a bit far - should be allowed braided lines in the front and suspension revalving on the stock units and oem replacement parts from previous years, and adjustable rear sets. These would represent minimal cost.

Nice work though

Actually no, the man hours spent in getting rear shocks to work as close as possible to aftermarket would be considerable. I have analysed/ costed this at length. And geometry changes are no so quick and convenient.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeah it mentions brake lines. Section 3-6. "Front and rear hydraulic brake lines must remains stock"

I also thought about this one. But it's not the standard lines that would be the problem surely? Bike mags rave about the performance of modern brakes from their tests at tracks using stock equipment.



I hope they come stock with brake lines!!:crazy: If you mean do they come with braided lines? Then No i don't think they do. Maybe a couple odd brands.



apart from the valving in the suspension, How important are the lines? have you raced on both stock and braided? Also, why the need for adjustable rear sets? are the stock one's to low and deck out?

Cheers,

-Glen

Ponder this....what bike mags say is often totally proportional to the advertising dollars spent.

[enigma51]

suspension = $3000+ ......

Thats 3 sets of race fairing (unpainted) or 2 set and change for a spray paint or maybe extra set of second hand rims.

If your a fat bastard that need stiffer suspension lay of the pies!

The rules should be to cut cost not to accommodate every one

[Skunk]

Stock bikes. Way flatter playing field for the weekend racer. If you're a tall, fat blob there's no way you're going to MotoGP! I don't care how much you 'fix' the suspension.
The class isn't aimed at the top riders who push the limits of the best equipment. This is to keep the cost of racing down; and OEM parts come fitted to every stock bike and are included in the price, strangely.

Aftermarket suspensions don't belong on every bike that goes on a race track. Save it for the serious racer - not the budget or see-if-I-like-it guys.

[vtec]

Arrgh, RT are you not getting the message you're posting 5 times as often as anyone else which gives you the impression that the arguing sides numbers are balance. And you're nitpicking at tiny parts of peoples posts which creates for lots of large annoying posts. Try to cut and paste the bits you want to discuss into the one post, and learn to use the quote function properly, it's a lot more simple than suspension dynamics.

I don't want to spend many hours and thousands of dollars setting up suspension, nor do I have the knowledge to do it competitively. I want to ride hard and fair. I don't want to have to compete with engineers and chequebooks, I want to compete with riders.

If I'm good enough at that, then it might be worth some serious sponsorship and dollars and time to step up to "modified" racing. I know I'm pretty good, but I also know I'm not worth a $40,000 per year investment... yet. I know I can't stick with the likes of Stroud and Shirriffs and smith and Lawrence, but I definitely had the potential, just not the money, the track time, or the equipment, or the experience, or the support. This is going to break down many hurdles. Good effort Shaun and Glen.

[Shaun P]

Actually no, the man hours spent in getting rear shocks to work as close as possible to aftermarket would be considerable. I have analysed/ costed this at length. And geometry changes are no so quick and convenient.

What do you propose then for a COST EFFECTIVE alternative for a production class? Please dont preach tyre wear etc this time

How do World superstock do it?

Whats a RRP and trade in price for a ttx 36 and 25mm fork kit?

Im all for the best suspension around but if everyone cant afford to have it then I guess it isnt a fair thing

[Buddha#81]

.......... but allow an aftermarket muffler and fairings......... aftermarket ECU............ rework / replace fork internals.......... aftermarket rear shock .

All that moves it well away from STOCK. From the three or so threads for a Production class there are plenty of people crying out for modern, cheap bikes with a level playing field. Policing the few that would sneak the undetectable mods in would be the hardest part.

Shauns idea is cool. I think if you own the bodywork and draw your bike number from a hat before the meeting and fit your bodywork. All bikes are returned to a "base" setting after each meeting and all you do is take you bodywork home. Lets the bikes work be done with ease.

[CHOPPA]

I keep hearing everyone say they cant afford a bike to be competitive cause they cant afford the suspension etc etc

I have top of the line ohlins fork kit and shock that someone could have for 3k add that to a 2008 zx6r s/h with low ks for 11k chuck on some fairings a pipe and some rearsets and you have a competitive bike for less then the price of a new 600....

I dont have any offers flooding in so i suspect even if there was this new great production class i doubt 99% of you that are saying its affordable I wanna race etc etc will do anything about it!

Anyone keen to give me $15k and ill organise you a competitive sports production bike? If the answer is no then theres your answer for production racing imo

[Robert Taylor]

Stock bikes. Way flatter playing field for the weekend racer. If you're a tall, fat blob there's no way you're going to MotoGP! I don't care how much you 'fix' the suspension.
The class isn't aimed at the top riders who push the limits of the best equipment. This is to keep the cost of racing down; and OEM parts come fitted to every stock bike and are included in the price, strangely.

Aftermarket suspensions don't belong on every bike that goes on a race track. Save it for the serious racer - not the budget or see-if-I-like-it guys.

And that is why we ( already ) have lower cost classes.

[jrandom]

Also to include the ducati 848 could be a good idea

Nope, nice bike but it's too quick, it'd unbalance a supersport field IMHO.


Anyone keen to give me $15k and ill organise you a competitive sports production bike? If the answer is no then theres your answer for production racing imo

What you're missing is that with these rules, you know that even the fastest guys don't have qualitatively better equipment than you do. And every grand counts, too.

I note that the guys supporting the status quo are doing their darndest to inflate the apparent cost of a true production racebike and minimise the apparent cost of a bike that'd be 'competitive' under the current formula rules. Stop grasping at straws, guys, production-type rules would make the class significantly cheaper no matter how you look at it.

And not just cheaper, but easier to manage. Why should fussing and stressing over bike tuning and setup have to consume dozens of hours of a club racer's time every month?

[jrandom]

And that is why we ( already ) have lower cost classes.

Which are?

Name them.

[Robert Taylor]

Arrgh, RT are you not getting the message you're posting 5 times as often as anyone else which gives you the impression that the arguing sides numbers are balance. And you're nitpicking at tiny parts of peoples posts which creates for lots of large annoying posts. Try to cut and paste the bits you want to discuss into the one post, and learn to use the quote function properly, it's a lot more simple than suspension dynamics.

I don't want to spend many hours and thousands of dollars setting up suspension, nor do I have the knowledge to do it competitively. I want to ride hard and fair. I don't want to have to compete with engineers and chequebooks, I want to compete with riders.

If I'm good enough at that, then it might be worth some serious sponsorship and dollars and time to step up to "modified" racing. I know I'm pretty good, but I also know I'm not worth a $40,000 per year investment... yet. I know I can't stick with the likes of Stroud and Shirriffs and smith and Lawrence, but I definitely had the potential, just not the money, the track time, or the equipment, or the experience, or the support. This is going to break down many hurdles. Good effort Shaun and Glen.

Theres plenty of rhetoric about it on this forum yes but not everyone frequents forums ( thank god for that ) If I may quote the example of the recent election...........there was plenty of noise ( arguably most of it ) from ''left field'' but in spite of that the torys sailed to an impressive victory.
There are also plenty of people who consider that bike setup and constant improvement is part of road racing.
I am not against a ''sub class'' but remain steadfast about the pitfalls that many who have posted here dont fully understand or have completely ignored. It remains to be seen if Shauns brave venture ( and I mean that totally respectfully ) comes off. If it doesnt I hope all those who have lent him their unreserved support will be just as generous as when he had his near death experience. I do wish him well in spite of my publicly stated reservations.

[cowpoos]

I don't want to spend many hours and thousands of dollars setting up suspension, nor do I have the knowledge to do it competitively. I want to ride hard and fair. I don't want to have to compete with engineers and chequebooks, I want to compete with riders.


Learn dude learn...if youy are that fast you will have to anyway.
You don't get to the top of anything in life with out hard work and sacrifice..
if you put a average effort in...you get average result out..

I think the sort of thing you and glenn are pushing for is grossly unfair...you guy weight shit all of anything...stock bike DO NOT HANDLE...I say that again...DO NOT HANDLE WELL!!! for heavier people...and taller people...I don't car what crasher and scrivy say...pete is a lil fella and scrivy is hardly big...neither yourself or sketch are big either....so why penilise us?? because that is what your doing...shaun is also not a big man. I rode the 810 how he had it set up for its originoal owner...and glenn was not a big man but he loved it!...but to me..handled like a piece of shit...put the brakes on...straight into a vicious stoppie after blowing through the full stroke of the forks in a instant...turned way way too fast...and I screwed a brand new rear racetech in three sessions at a manfield test day..dispite the ohlins on the rear..why all this??? the suspension was completely wrong for my size and weight... but that same bike...before I rode it...was praised so so very very highly by White trash as being the best bike he had ever riden...doing everything he asked of it...and felt fantastic...can you imagine why that could be??? it is the lack of physical precence the dude has...[thats a nice way of saying it aye Jimmie]...

So tell me...not just you Vtec...any of you...how wrong I am???

and yes...I think Shauns concept is good...cheap racing!! he's bound to get peoples attention...and he has..and good on him!!...but it far from provides a level playing field...supersport is much closer.

But hey...we have protwins...if you want to go faster...we have supersport. and motorsport ain't cheap...deal with it!! and the people at the top have paid for a hell of alot of lunches in thier time!!

[cowpoos]

Nope, nice bike but it's too quick, it'd unbalance a supersport field IMHO.





Dan...your not qualified to have humble opinions in that area...sorry! :bleh:

[jrandom]

Dan...your not qualified to have humble opinions in that area...sorry! :bleh:

I know. Just going on the numbers, mind you.

But does that mean you disagree with it?

[Robert Taylor]

What do you propose then for a COST EFFECTIVE alternative for a production class? Please dont preach tyre wear etc this time

How do World superstock do it?

Whats a RRP and trade in price for a ttx 36 and 25mm fork kit?

Im all for the best suspension around but if everyone cant afford to have it then I guess it isnt a fair thing

Ive already stated that elsewhere and tyre wear is by no means an irrelevant issue. We can experience that with good suspension ( as you well know ) but at least that stuff is actually designed to be pulled apart and tuned easily! As you also know there is ( unashamedly ) a high level of sincerity with the backup service I personally offer.

It is not a habit of mine to state pricing on forums, to preclude dutch auctions. As you know my business is prepared to trade such equipment, the product has excellent residual value.

Arguably you can often purchase a quality aftermarket shock second hand for about the same price as a reworked and resprung oem shock. Ive done the exercise / anaylsis ( and I dont mean modification of oem by Heath Robinson methods )

In the end event ( and Shaun Im not directing this at you ) people will only believe what they want to believe.

[cowpoos]

How do World superstock do it?



they are pretty much the same spec as our superbikes actually!

[cowpoos]

I know. Just going on the numbers, mind you.

But does that mean you disagree with it?
put it this way...if they were legal...I would be tempted!

[jrandom]

put it this way...if they were legal...I would be tempted!

Course you'd be tempted, an 848 would easily be the fastest bike on paper in any supersport grid, that's my point.

Have you ridden one? The guy who sits next to me at work (so to speak) just bought one. It's veeeeery nice, and he's veeeery accommodating...

:2thumbsup

[Skunk]

And that is why we ( already ) have lower cost classes.
Not in larger capacity bikes we don't. Buckets and Streetstock don't really suit everyone. F3 is too open on the bikes (chequebook racing can show up). Stock will show up the RIDER.


I have top of the line ohlins fork kit and shock that someone could have for 3k add that to a 2008 zx6r s/h with low ks for 11k chuck on some fairings a pipe and some rearsets and you have a competitive bike for less then the price of a new 600....

I dont have any offers flooding in so i suspect even if there was this new great production class i doubt 99% of you that are saying its affordable I wanna race etc etc will do anything about it!

Anyone keen to give me $15k and ill organise you a competitive sports production bike? If the answer is no then theres your answer for production racing imoHardly. I know someone who has just sold everything - including his road bike, bedside tables - the works and is taking on a second job just to buy and race a 600. It's not even a current model let alone new. Finding another $3000 just isn't possible. Sometimes $3000 is just $2999 too much. Sooner or later a class needed where the chequebook is not the winning factor.
Shaun's idea could be it.

[brads]

.

I don't want to have to compete with engineers and chequebooks, I want to compete with riders.

.

Sorry mate,your in the wrong sport then.Even in so called proddy racing there will always be someone who can find that little bit extra inside the rules,or out.

[brads]

If I'm good enough at that, then it might be worth some serious sponsorship and dollars and time to step up to "modified" racing. I know I'm pretty good, but I also know I'm not worth a $40,000 per year investment... yet. I know I can't stick with the likes of Stroud and Shirriffs and smith and Lawrence, but I definitely had the potential, just not the money, the track time, or the equipment, or the experience, or the support. This is going to break down many hurdles. Good effort Shaun and.

If you dont mind me asking,how did you know you had the potential?

[brads]

Arrgh, RT are you not getting the message you're posting 5 times as often as anyone else which gives you the impression that the arguing sides numbers are balance. And you're nitpicking at tiny parts of peoples posts which creates for lots of large annoying posts. Try to cut and paste the bits you want to discuss into the one post, and learn to use the quote function properly, it's a lot more simple than suspension dynamics.



:Oops: sorry

[Shaun]

:Oops: sorry


:Oi: No one likes your Sheep

[Buddha#81]

.......there will always be someone who can find that little bit extra inside the rules,or out.

Infinatly harder when the bike it taken away after the meeting and all bikes preped by the same person.......Unless Shaun is going to be brought?

[Mishy]

Nice work Glen, it's good that you have come up with something constructive and well thought out. One point seems clear, stock is stock - no extra this or modified that, we have a class for those modifications, and it's working fine at the moment - even if there are those who are not fans
To all those that see this as the holy grail of fairness - get real. The only way it'll work like that is if you take Shaun's approach and hold the bikes between meetings, otherwise time and money spent testing (which is a big part of why the fast get faster and faster) will get one rider further than another strictly due to cash input. That's motorsport for you.
And to those who rubbish the link between suspension and tyres - stop and have a good think, they are TOTALLY linked, and you simply can't consider one without considering the other. The guys that design the tyres even talk about them as part of a dynamic system that includes the shock/fork
That shouldn't be read as meaning I am anti a stock class - I'm not, I just hope that many out there would use good advice to understand the various merits of what's being discussed here, and what It means for the big picture, as well as the initial cost.
Roberts point about residual value of shocks is a fair one, and the same can't often (in reality) be said for used race tyres if you have any scuples :)

[Sketchy_Racer]

Looks good to me! People are gonna cheat though....

Also to include the ducati 848 could be a good idea

Of course people are going to cheat. Do you not think there is cheating currently going on in NZ racing? I would think that a Proddy class would help "spot the cheater" easier than any other class - less variables.


Actually it wouldnt level the playing field as much as you think. For example riders that are tall with lot of body mass ( eg Nick Cole ) would not only require firmer springing but also damping upgrades. Damping is as much overcome by body mass as is springing.
Stock engines yes, but allow an aftermarket muffler and fairings( to reduce the replacement cost of crash damage ) aftermarket ECU ( to sort out the dodgy fueling on some models ) rework / replace fork internals ( various options available) and aftermarket rear shock ( so that spring rates and valving can be customised to the rider stats and style )
What is often overlooked is that unlike many other components aftermarket suspension has residual value in that you can resell it. A very strong second hand market has been created. Answering for myself I am very active in that market as it better suits many peoples budgets.

It may not level the feild hugely when it comes to riders attributes (both physical and Style) but it will certainly level the feild financially.
Major manufactures must surely factor in different weight riders and compensate for them with there suspension. They have to sell their bikes to all sorts of people after all.


Actually no, the man hours spent in getting rear shocks to work as close as possible to aftermarket would be considerable. I have analysed/ costed this at length. And geometry changes are no so quick and convenient.

That answers the consideration to possibly allow shocks and forks to be re-valved etc. It is too expensive.


stock lines are absaloutly fine...

Great, no need for aftermarket


Ponder this....what bike mags say is often totally proportional to the advertising dollars spent.
There must be some truth in there articles, and above comment backs up that they are fine.

Otherwise

This proves that words on paper really mean less and less each day. I'm going to quit reading soon, everything written is BS.


I keep hearing everyone say they cant afford a bike to be competitive cause they cant afford the suspension etc etc

I have top of the line ohlins fork kit and shock that someone could have for 3k add that to a 2008 zx6r s/h with low ks for 11k chuck on some fairings a pipe and some rearsets and you have a competitive bike for less then the price of a new 600....

I dont have any offers flooding in so i suspect even if there was this new great production class i doubt 99% of you that are saying its affordable I wanna race etc etc will do anything about it!

Anyone keen to give me $15k and ill organise you a competitive sports production bike? If the answer is no then theres your answer for production racing imo

A bike in that state would not be competitive at all. 11k for bike 3k for suspension. 1.5k for fairings, 2k for pipe, .5k for power commander, 2k for engine work, .5k for rear sets.

Even then that would only be scraping the barrel of being competitive in SP600.

Oh and I do want to race, and am doing/trying to do something about it, don't you worry.


Learn dude learn...if youy are that fast you will have to anyway.
You don't get to the top of anything in life with out hard work and sacrifice..
if you put a average effort in...you get average result out..

I think the sort of thing you and glenn are pushing for is grossly unfair...you guy weight shit all of anything...stock bike DO NOT HANDLE...I say that again...DO NOT HANDLE WELL!!! for heavier people...and taller people...I don't car what crasher and scrivy say...pete is a lil fella and scrivy is hardly big...neither yourself or sketch are big either....so why penilise us?? because that is what your doing...shaun is also not a big man. I rode the 810 how he had it set up for its originoal owner...and glenn was not a big man but he loved it!...but to me..handled like a piece of shit...put the brakes on...straight into a vicious stoppie after blowing through the full stroke of the forks in a instant...turned way way too fast...and I screwed a brand new rear racetech in three sessions at a manfield test day..dispite the ohlins on the rear..why all this??? the suspension was completely wrong for my size and weight... but that same bike...before I rode it...was praised so so very very highly by White trash as being the best bike he had ever riden...doing everything he asked of it...and felt fantastic...can you imagine why that could be??? it is the lack of physical precence the dude has...[thats a nice way of saying it aye Jimmie]...

So tell me...not just you Vtec...any of you...how wrong I am???

and yes...I think Shauns concept is good...cheap racing!! he's bound to get peoples attention...and he has..and good on him!!...but it far from provides a level playing field...supersport is much closer.

But hey...we have protwins...if you want to go faster...we have supersport. and motorsport ain't cheap...deal with it!! and the people at the top have paid for a hell of alot of lunches in thier time!!

Ever decided to lose a few KGs.. if YOU were that committed to your racing then you would put in the hard yards and effort to drop the KGs? yes no?
Obviously some are naturally bigger than others, but if you feel to your to big to be competitive in this class, you're going to hit the same issue later on if you want to chase racing beyond NZ.


Nice work Glen, it's good that you have come up with something constructive and well thought out. One point seems clear, stock is stock - no extra this or modified that, we have a class for those modifications, and it's working fine at the moment - even if there are those who are not fans
To all those that see this as the holy grail of fairness - get real. The only way it'll work like that is if you take Shaun's approach and hold the bikes between meetings, otherwise time and money spent testing (which is a big part of why the fast get faster and faster) will get one rider further than another strictly due to cash input. That's motorsport for you.
And to those who rubbish the link between suspension and tyres - stop and have a good think, they are TOTALLY linked, and you simply can't consider one without considering the other. The guys that design the tyres even talk about them as part of a dynamic system that includes the shock/fork
That shouldn't be read as meaning I am anti a stock class - I'm not, I just hope that many out there would use good advice to understand the various merits of what's being discussed here, and what It means for the big picture, as well as the initial cost.
Roberts point about residual value of shocks is a fair one, and the same can't often (in reality) be said for used race tyres if you have any scuples :)
Hey Mishy,

Thanks, and I agree with you, that the current class works very well. As I have mentioned else where, maybe with a class like what I propose running alongside the current SP600 rules could be adjusted to make the current SP bikes more internationally competitive. As far as I know, there are to many restrictions on our bikes to turn them easily into international race bikes.

I am well aware that this will not be the huge leveler that some believe it will be. I think it will be a financial leveler for sure.

Also of course there will be cheaters, there always will be in life. It is to be expected, but as I have mentioned earlier, do you not believe that there is cheating going on in current classes? Of course there is, it's just harder to spot.



Cheers all,

-Glen

[wharfy]

But hey...we have protwins...if you want to go faster...we have supersport. and motorsport ain't cheap...deal with it!! and the people at the top have paid for a hell of alot of lunches in thier time!!

Part of the point of this thread is that pro-twins aren't STOCK, and are (from what I have gleamed ) quite expensive. This class is not for people at the top, it is for people ON THEIR WAY to the top and those of us who aren't going anywhere to have racing that is fair, fun, safe AND affordable.

WE KNOW motor sport isn't cheap - this is one of the ways we are dealing with it.

[brads]

:Oi: No one likes your Sheep

Sheep?? no sheep down here dude:niceone:

[brads]

[QUOTE=Sketchy_Racer


Hey Mishy,

Thanks, and I agree with you, that the current class works very well. As I have mentioned else where, maybe with a class like what I propose running alongside the current SP600 rules could be adjusted to make the current SP bikes more internationally competitive. As far as I know, there are to many restrictions on our bikes to turn them easily into international race bikes.





Cheers all,

-Glen[/QUOTE]

Wont that make the gap between the bikes on track to big? Riders are missing the qualifying cut off now.Would have to be a seperate race all together.
Ever priced up what it costs to turn them into "international bikes"?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Wont that make the gap between the bikes on track to big? Riders are missing the qualifying cut off now.Would have to be a seperate race all together.
Ever priced up what it costs to turn them into "international bikes"?

Would allowing more modifications make a really huge difference to the lap times of SP? I wouldn't think any more than 1 second? Otherwise the 600s will end up being faster than the superbikes!

I don't know how much different the international rules are, but by the sound of your post, it must be considerable.

I've just heard a couple of people mention the frustration of trying to take a NZ bike over seas to race. Apparently they just aren't competitive.

[Toast]

It may not level the feild hugely when it comes to riders attributes (both physical and Style) but it will certainly level the feild financially.

Major manufactures must surely factor in different weight riders and compensate for them with there suspension. They have to sell their bikes to all sorts of people after all.

I am well aware that this will not be the huge leveler that some believe it will be. I think it will be a financial leveler for sure.

-Glen

So let’s get this straight: The status quo is that those with more money have an advantage and unless you’ve got enough to buy the right kit, physics decrees that you don’t get a fair shot.

Yet you’ve just openly stated that those who are outside a certain set of physical parameters no longer get a fair shot under ‘production rules’, and that’s ok?

So we’ve gone from inequity based on financial means to favouring those with certain God-given physical attributes. So before, the poor pricks had to work 7 days a week to afford suspension services and tyres, now the solidly built guys have to train 7 days a week and sacrifice overall health to make their suspension work.

And this makes it ‘all about the racer’s skill’ and makes it 'fair' overall, how?

And I don’t agree that manufacturers magically make their bikes' handling equally appealing to all riders. The fact that the suspension on most of the bikes they sell will never be subjected to forces great enough to challenge it in a corner means that they don’t really have to give a toss; they just have to make sure the marketing is done well and they don’t develop a reputation for rubbish reliability.




Part of the point of this thread is that pro-twins aren't STOCK, and are (from what I have gleamed ) quite expensive. This class is not for people at the top, it is for people ON THEIR WAY to the top and those of us who aren't going anywhere to have racing that is fair, fun, safe AND affordable.

WE KNOW motor sport isn't cheap - this is one of the ways we are dealing with it.

What was Karl Morgan’s championship winning bike selling for? Listed at $12.5k if I recall rightly? Probably going to sell for less than that. Cheaper than a stock 600 and there are no new models that will enter the class this year. That’s cheaper and more competitive for more people in its class than what’s being proposed with this 600 production class.


Having said all of that, I like the idea of a production 600 class running along side the current 600SP class, but let’s not kid ourselves that it’s going to be fair and all about the racer’s skill. There will always be excuses, but the Craig Shirriffs, Andrew Strouds, Rossis, etc whose natural talents are well suited to the requirements of the sport, who had opportunities early on to develop their skills, and who have the determination to get where they have, are probably still going to rise to the top some way or another

[Sketchy_Racer]

So let’s get this straight: The status quo is that those with more money have an advantage and unless you’ve got enough to buy the right kit, physics decrees that you don’t get a fair shot.

Yet you’ve just openly stated that those who are outside a certain set of physical parameters no longer get a fair shot under ‘production rules’, and that’s ok?

So we’ve gone from inequity based on financial means to favouring those with certain God-given physical attributes. So before, the poor pricks had to work 7 days a week to afford suspension services and tyres, now the solidly built guys have to train 7 days a week and sacrifice overall health to make their suspension work.

And this makes it ‘all about the racer’s skill’ and makes it 'fair' overall, how?

And I don’t agree that manufacturers magically make their bikes' handling equally appealing to all riders. The fact that the suspension on most of the bikes they sell will never be subjected to forces great enough to challenge it in a corner means that they don’t really have to give a toss; they just have to make sure the marketing is done well and they don’t develop a reputation for rubbish reliability.

People with larger physical mass are going to suffer in ANY class they race in. After market suspension is good, but it can't hide that fact that some bugger weighs 120Kg on a bike!
The weight disadvantage will exist no matter what, and I feel that spring changes are enough to compensate for that. My other personal feeling is, If you're a heavy bugger maybe you aren't cut out to be a jockey?

Remember the goal of a class such as this is not only to try create a less financially based race class, but more importantly, make racing in NZ more appealing. A 40k out lay to have a competitive 600cc (before you even hit the track) race bike in NZ does NOT make it a appealing class to your average wage earning NZer.

Bikes like the SV you mentioned below aren't fun to ride(IMO). I don't know if you have ridden a SV but they are the same speed as a 125GP bike in a straight line, but have the mass of a 600SP bike. And at the end of the day, they are a commuter bike dressed up a little.

I believe that the current SP600 class is still very important and this is by no means a way to get rid of it, or dilute the class.


What was Karl Morgan’s championship winning bike selling for? Listed at $12.5k if I recall rightly? Probably going to sell for less than that. Cheaper than a stock 600 and there are no new models that will enter the class this year. That’s cheaper and more competitive for more people in its class than what’s being proposed with this 600 production class.


Having said all of that, I like the idea of a production 600 class running along side the current 600SP class, but let’s not kid ourselves that it’s going to be fair and all about the racer’s skill. There will always be excuses, but the Craig Shirriffs, Andrew Strouds, Rossis, etc whose natural talents are well suited to the requirements of the sport, who had opportunities early on to develop their skills, and who have the determination to get where they have, are probably still going to rise to the top some way or another

[vtec]

So let’s get this straight: The status quo is that those with more money have an advantage and unless you’ve got enough to buy the right kit, physics decrees that you don’t get a fair shot.

Yet you’ve just openly stated that those who are outside a certain set of physical parameters no longer get a fair shot under ‘production rules’, and that’s ok?

...

And I don’t agree that manufacturers magically make their bikes' handling equally appealing to all riders. The fact that the suspension on most of the bikes they sell will never be subjected to forces great enough to challenge it in a corner means that they don’t really have to give a toss; they just have to make sure the marketing is done well and they don’t develop a reputation for rubbish reliability.

What was Karl Morgan’s championship winning bike selling for? Listed at $12.5k if I recall rightly? Probably going to sell for less than that. Cheaper than a stock 600 and there are no new models that will enter the class this year. That’s cheaper and more competitive for more people in its class than what’s being proposed with this 600 production class.

Having said all of that, I like the idea of a production 600 class running along side the current 600SP class, but let’s not kid ourselves that it’s going to be fair and all about the racer’s skill. There will always be excuses, but the Craig Shirriffs, Andrew Strouds, Rossis, etc whose natural talents are well suited to the requirements of the sport, who had opportunities early on to develop their skills, and who have the determination to get where they have, are probably still going to rise to the top some way or another

To cowpoos, I weigh 72kg, would be well over 80kg with my gear on, I'm still fast on a soft as a sponge CBR250RR (been winning races and prize money in Australia on them). Also, if your bike is going into stoppies, you need to up the preload a bit, or maybe ease on the brakes a little slower, and find the braking limit point. Riding is all about feeling how the bike responds. I still feel like the 600's were built for BIGGER riders than me. Try not to be so hamfisted. Work out what the setup you're on is capable of.

And Toast, you've been working 2 jobs to support your racing addiction, and countless hours of repairs maintenance and setup. Your bike is far from competitive, it's really just a learning tool. Will you be buying Karls bike?

For me, I cycle everywhere I can, and I workout every second day. I'm trying to put on weight and strengthen up. I have trouble keeping muscle on, but I feel that I'm just about in the right condition to make an ideal rider. Everyone should exercise. Fat bastards should exercise more, or focus their exercise on weight loss or trimming down etc. When I was a long distance runner, I was running every day for at least an hour. Harden up. Everyone can exercise, not everyone can afford 3k suspension (on top of all the other costs) for a season. I can afford $6grand for a season though, just. But I feel irresponsible risking all this money, my gran gave me $1000 towards my racing, and I still feel guilty about it. And my parents spent many more thousands on me racing (mostly accommodation and repairs) than they ever did on my 3 other siblings. I feel so guilty. That is a part of the reason why I packed it in at the end of last year. I could not afford to crash my bike, I was in over my head, and swimming against the current. I'd say 90% of the potential out there never even gets a chance to prove themselves. So don't ever give me the bullcrap that the best always rise to the top against all obstacles. That's just not true. I'd say out of six billion people there's plenty with the exact same potential as valentino rossi who never got the chance to race motorsport. Or didn't start young enough, or the circumstances weren't right for.

I'm sure I heard a quote somewhere that the greatest talent remains forever undiscovered. Or something to that effect.

If you are worried about tyre wear, Shaun is running a control tyre that will no doubt provide enough lifetime to get you through a meeting. He's smarter than he looks, which is just aswell.

And to the person who asked why I thought I had the potential? Well because I would never have got a 600 if I didn't think I could be the best. Call it delusional self belief. Don't worry, I did get my doubts at times especially after the odd decent crash, or with the ex pulling the rug from under my feet at every possible opportunity. But if everything had gone my way I could have been the best. Just there were several hurdles I never jumped, mostly due to money in one of the poorest developed countries in the world.

Toast, not all of this rant is directed at you. You should definitely be a prime candidate for Shauns series, it's about time you put that CBR out to pasture mate.

I've definitely given more than my fair share of opinion, I'm out. Good luck peeps and have fun.

[Toast]

People with larger physical mass are going to suffer in ANY class they race in. After market suspension is good, but it can't hide that fact that some bugger weighs 120Kg on a bike!
The weight disadvantage will exist no matter what, and I feel that spring changes are enough to compensate for that. My other personal feeling is, If you're a heavy bugger maybe you aren't cut out to be a jockey?

Remember the goal of a class such as this is not only to try create a less financially based race class, but more importantly, make racing in NZ more appealing. A 40k out lay to have a competitive 600cc (before you even hit the track) race bike in NZ does NOT make it a appealing class to your average wage earning NZer.

Bikes like the SV you mentioned below aren't fun to ride(IMO). I don't know if you have ridden a SV but they are the same speed as a 125GP bike in a straight line, but have the mass of a 600SP bike. And at the end of the day, they are a commuter bike dressed up a little.

I believe that the current SP600 class is still very important and this is by no means a way to get rid of it, or dilute the class.


Spring changes are enough? Not according to the best suspension engineer in the country? Is he being biased? I don’t think so, but some others do and some don’t. Big boys like Paul Pav have won NZ titles and there have been bigger boned IoM winners, I believe. GP racers…nah.

$40k before you hit the track? $18k for an ex-Dave Cole bike that could win the championship in the right hands seems like a more reasonable estimate to me.

We could argue the finer points all day, but like the Irish dude somewhere on this forum said, it’s about time for action and for people to stick their money down. Then we will see just how appealing this new production 600 class is. Let’s hope that it boosts numbers on the grids, because a 600 class with 35 on the grid would be a great spectacle.

Personally, if there is a stock GSXR National Championship class run by MotoDynamix at the 2009-2010 Nationals that costs around $5k+/- to enter with tyres and bike supplied as has been indicated, then I’d almost certainly be in for it.

[Tony.OK]

Shit this is getting all to petty now.................ffs if you want to hire a bike then do it, if you don't then buy whatever you want to race on.
Telling people to excercise and harden up isn't going to help anyone, same time excercising could be spent on a second job to pay for "said" suspension.Each to their own.
Me.......I own a bike already,and I wouldn't spend 6k just to do the Winter series, but can see how that would appeal to someone that hasn't got one.

No one has really talked about crash repairs yet........what about the whole rear subframe arguement that the SV F3 boys have just been through? No aftermarket parts means very expensive replacement costs.

I wish all that get involved good luck, and hope Shaun gets all the support he deserves for going through with his plan.:niceone:

[Sketchy_Racer]

Shit this is getting all to petty now.................ffs if you want to hire a bike then do it, if you don't then buy whatever you want to race on.
Telling people to excercise and harden up isn't going to help anyone, same time excercising could be spent on a second job to pay for "said" suspension.Each to their own.
Me.......I own a bike already,and I wouldn't spend 6k just to do the Winter series, but can see how that would appeal to someone that hasn't got one.

No one has really talked about crash repairs yet........what about the whole rear subframe arguement that the SV F3 boys have just been through? No aftermarket parts means very expensive replacement costs.

I wish all that get involved good luck, and hope Shaun gets all the support he deserves for going through with his plan.:niceone:

I wouldn't call this petty. It's been quite a constructive online conversation (call it what you like) if you were to ask me.

It seems that people that can't afford all the gear love the idea and the people with the gear don't. Not surprising really.

Oh and this thread has nothing to do with Shauns bike hiring. This thread is about how I think NZ racing could benefit from a proddy 600 class, and how I think would be the successful way to do it.

[Tony.OK]

I wouldn't call this petty. It's been quite a constructive online conversation (call it what you like) if you were to ask me.

It seems that people that can't afford all the gear love the idea and the people with the gear don't. Not surprising really.

Oh and this thread has nothing to do with Shauns bike hiring. This thread is about how I think NZ racing could benefit from a proddy 600 class, and how I think would be the successful way to do it.

My bad.......I thought I was in one of the other threads.:doh:
I'm all for having more bums on bikes, how ever it needs to happen.

[discodan]

Why not just run the production 600s as a separate class and points as the pro twins are running in F3?

Heavy / rich guys can stick with the current class and the others can run stock bikes against each other.

I only got into racing because I had a bike that fitted with he pro twin rules so I could potentially run at the front.

[Toast]

And Toast, you've been working 2 jobs to support your racing addiction, and countless hours of repairs maintenance and setup. Your bike is far from competitive, it's really just a learning tool. Will you be buying Karls bike?

Toast, not all of this rant is directed at you. You should definitely be a prime candidate for Shauns series, it's about time you put that CBR out to pasture mate.

I've definitely given more than my fair share of opinion, I'm out. Good luck peeps and have fun.

Nah mate, not gonna buy Karl’s bike. Maybe Sketchy is right, SVs just aren’t that appealing and we are shallow bastards that want to have an IL4 tickling our balls at 15,000rpm and shoving us hard down the straights. Still, point remains, if you want to have a shot at winning a class, there is/was a bike for sale for $12k that will enable you to do it.

Yes, I worked like a dog in 3 jobs for 18 months for a number of reasons, racing (especially getting screwed on the purchase of a bike that had ‘potential’ in the same way that a state house in Otara does, spend a shit load and it’ll be quite nice) and past mistakes making up most of them.

My bike may not be competitive but I KNOW that I’m still the limiting factor. I’ve finally gotten around to fixing a few things, and I got down to a 1:38.5 within 3 sessions taking it easy at Taupo on the weekend just been with an excuse list a mile long. Neither wheel slipped the whole day… The bike clearly has HEAPS more to give once I attack the excuse list (for relatively few, if any $), so I don’t believe that I have the right to whinge. Once someone videos me riding it like Rossi and still not winning, then I will whinge :)

[Skunk]

How come every time someone mentions the cost of a top notch bike some start pointing out the cost to buy a top notch racers cast-off?
Apples with apples people - 2009 top class 600 with all the trick bits vs 2009 600 Production bike. Cost difference is?...

[cowpoos]

Ever decided to lose a few KGs.. if YOU were that committed to your racing then you would put in the hard yards and effort to drop the KGs? yes no?
Obviously some are naturally bigger than others, but if you feel to your to big to be competitive in this class, you're going to hit the same issue later on if you want to chase racing beyond NZ.


Between the time I started racing...till my last race I did...I was 15kgs lighter...and below the healthy weight range according to body mass index.

Besides that..you won't hit that same issuse really..because your allowed to can suspension components in most classes...its the status quo for a reason.
Heavier people have different ablilities on a bike compare to lighter people which levels the playing feild a bit...when suspension changes can be made to keep the bikes dynamic ride height more consistant. after you learn more about bike setup...which is a critical part of your learning as a racer to have any future in this sport long term..you will realise this.


To cowpoos, I weigh 72kg, would be well over 80kg with my gear on, I'm still fast on a soft as a sponge CBR250RR (been winning races and prize money in Australia on them). Also, if your bike is going into stoppies, you need to up the preload a bit, or maybe ease on the brakes a little slower, and find the braking limit point. Riding is all about feeling how the bike responds. I still feel like the 600's were built for BIGGER riders than me. Try not to be so hamfisted. Work out what the setup you're on is capable of.

the forces you get on a cbr250's suspension is fuck all of anything compared to something which make five times the power...you can't even be dumb enough to you that for a argument!! come on!!

and as for you coment on suspension...I ain't a fool in that deparment..and my example was the bike as it was before the springs were uprated...valving changed front and rear...the valving in the forks in the front is a major to stop brake dive...unfortunatly...the cartridges in the 810 are not the best and resisting brake dive...600's are not built for bigger rider than you...more likely lighter riders than your self. Japenesse test riders are not big people!!

and re: the control tyre comment...PM jayracer37...ask him what conti compound will last the whole winter series on a stock bike...he help develop them so he would know!!


People with larger physical mass are going to suffer in ANY class they race in. After market suspension is good, but it can't hide that fact that some bugger weighs 120Kg on a bike!
The weight disadvantage will exist no matter what, and I feel that spring changes are enough to compensate for that. My other personal feeling is, If you're a heavy bugger maybe you aren't cut out to be a jockey?



a difference of 10 kgs is big enough to make it a un fair playing feild!! and Nick cole blows your other theory out the window...with the help of aftermarket suspension...he's priddy fast!!

Ben spies isn't a small fella either...height and weight wise compared to his peers....is he slow???

I will be rude now Glenn....but you need look at the possibilities that your point of view may not be the best comprimise to having the fairest cheap series!!

.................................................. ............................

SKUNK...Protwins are cheap...they are very stock...I think your confussed with F3...

.................................................. ............................

and for all the robert taylor bashers...how about we develop a concept that has suspension mods that use only whitepower suspension...I doubt robert will give a crap...he would probally welcome the fact that he could spend some time on the weekends that most people take for granted with his family!! and Ray clee is great with suspension...so we could still recieve a high level product!!

.................................................. .............................................

I would be interested in Ozzy's and JDracing...gixxerracers...comments to this thread. ad similar threads.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Between the time I started racing...till my last race I did...I was 15kgs lighter...and below the healthy weight range according to body mass index.

Are you kidding me? I didn't think you were that tall, just a bit bulk. How much did you weigh at you lowest?


and re: the control tyre comment...PM jayracer37...ask him what conti compound will last the whole winter series on a stock bike...he help develop them so he would know!!


I don't think any tyre would last a whole season? It should be a fresh tire (or a supersport take off) each round. Clearly you wont get as great tyre life with stock suspension (we can agree there!)


a difference of 10 kgs is big enough to make it a un fair playing feild!! and Nick cole blows your other theory out the window...with the help of aftermarket suspension...he's priddy fast!!


So with me being in at 62Kg and Jason at 72Kg, I will have a significant advantage to him? Don't think so.
Maybe the 100kg plus riders will suffer but again, if your that size you gotta ask if your in the right sport if you want to go somewhere with it.


Ben spies isn't a small fella either...height and weight wise compared to his peers....is he slow???

How big is he? Does he just look bigger because of the size of his competition? It could be a case of looking and Nicky Hayden vs Dani Pedrosa. Nicky isn't big, but looks HUGE next to Dani.


I will be rude now Glenn....but you need look at the possibilities that your point of view may not be the best comprimise to having the fairest cheap series!!


Not rude at all mate. I bought this up in hope of getting everyones opinions on the subject to really see what the advantages vs Disadvantages
I like to think I have a open view of everything, and you are right it won't be the fairest series, but I feel it will be a far more attractive series compared to the likes of pro twins and will also help open the door to the not so funded or determined riders which equals more bums on seats which is what we need in our sport before we can expect it to develop any further.


and for all the robert taylor bashers...how about we develop a concept that has suspension mods that use only whitepower suspension...I doubt robert will give a crap...he would probally welcome the fact that he could spend some time on the weekends that most people take for granted with his family!! and Ray clee is great with suspension...so we could still recieve a high level product!!

I'd like to point out that I have not once bashed Robert. I respect the man hugely not only for his immense knowledge but also for the amount of effort he clearly puts into this sport. Truth be told the sport would be well down the gutter without dedicated people like him.


I would be interested in Ozzy's and JDracing...gixxerracers...comments to this thread. ad similar threads.

So would I. It would be interesting to hear more professional inputs. (professional = more experience than someone like myself, 18yo with comparatively very very little experience.

Cheers,

-Glen

[koba]

only $3000 more for suspension. :eek5:
Thats around than I spent on one season of racing.
Including the bike.

Streetstock is a cheap class, I dunno much about suspensions or tyres on bikes that have enough power to really work them but Glens idea sounds brilliant to me.

I'm currently not considering ever racing 600's. Fair or not has nothing to do with it, that ammount of $$ is simply out of my pricerange.
If it was cheaper and I could afford it I would love to have a bash at it.

[roogazza]

Glen, just reading some of the last few posts concerning weight. I spent a few years in 410cc Prod. and in my prime was 80 kgs.(yes I was !) One of the bigger blokes I guess ? I had a mate, A.Hughson, who at the time was under 50kg wringing wet , in his socks ! 30kg difference !!!!!!!!
At somewhere like Manfeild on the straight he would come past like he had a turbo ! Made it hard work each lap. On 600 upwards bikes, it wasn't so much of a problem. Gaz.

[vtec]

Hey cowpoos, didn't mean to piss you off man sorry.

Just in response I didn't expect tyres to last a season, but if you can get them to last a round on standard suspension that's all I'm asking. As someone has said 3k is what many people are willing to spend on their whole racing budget not just suspension. I'm not saying that you should be able to race 600's for 3k per season, just that having 3k less spent on the bike would include many more riders, every extra thousand becomes exponentially more difficult to come up with.

I know you know more about suspension than I do cowpoos, but still handling problems can be ridden around, they will slow you down, but again, same boat = fair. Anyway I'm just repeating myself so I'll shut up.

Me at 72kg's I'm sure that 600's std suspension will have plenty in reserve for me. And the comments about the CBR250RR being an entirely unfair comparison are untrue. You still brake just as hard on the 250 as you do on the 600, you still get the bastard at full lean with the elbow just about on the ground and it weighs about the same. It does have SHIT suspension in comparison to the 600s. Only real differences being on the power out of the corners, in which case the rear shock has to deal with much larger forces. And you have to brake from speeds 270kph as opposed to 190kph.

Stock suspension is fine as long as everyone is on it.

With regard to Jay mentioning a large number of people crashing in the last two laps of the R6 virgin mobile cup. I think that was the documentary of a whole bunch of young lads competing that I watched. If I remember rightly the crashes were due to desperation, as the race and all their investments were coming to a culmination, and one muppet did a dive on the brakes and took out 3 riders when he dropped the front. He over rode his setups ability due to desperation, it was rider error not equipment failure.

[worm13]

About size.... now do you think that this sport would be as big if we made the rules favour the "smaller" riders.... if thats the case racing would go up due to less entrys and for some silly reason the cost of track hire going up like petrol did and in return putting up entry fees, also with stock suspenison this would also over use a tire therefore nailing the snot out of it by the end of the day having a feel of marbles on the track giving a higher chance of putting the bike upside down and after a few crashes and few bent bits do you think this may over come the price of some after market suspenison.

Please correct me if im wrong but racing in the rain without wets.... hello saftey here please, racing in posties during our wet winter seing some guys on proddie tires showing some really cool slide angles but yet didnt seem to be going fast yet add more horsepower what does this bring to mind.... high side city.
Im a border line fatty when it comes to racing at 93kgs and I feel with the limits on this idea just wouldnt work for me and it seems to be to a few other riders here, but to say we cant go far because of it is to be honest is a bit hasty... does anybody here from the older days remember Kevin "bubbles" grey??? no disrespect to kev but he looked like a tank on a mini moto but yet could run top 10 at national level superbikes, raced overseas also had a offer at the isle, you tell me isnt that a bit further then some of the skinny lads??
yes it was an issue for straight line speed but he worked hard and had a good set of balls on him to make up for it... joys of being a big bastard I guess.
Motorsport is a costly game your a idiot if you think its cheap... we allready have a street stock class and now a pro twin if you dont wanna spend heaps of money on racing street stock it is, if you have a bit extra then pro twins is the next step but why have another stock class??
Shauns idea is great its alot like the sv rent a racer in 2001 but once again no disrespect I feel that this will only last 2 years even with a good following and I only say that due to nz just isnt big enough for it (I would love to be proving wrong here I really do)
Hopefully I havent rocked the boat to much here.

[vtec]

Why have another stock class?

Because Pro-twins aren't truly stock racing or cheap. And Streetstocks, well I won that easily in my first season it wasn't a true proving ground. 600 production stock bikes would be an affordable proving ground and a major step up from streetstocks. And they are far cooler and better than SV's. Although Codgy has proved they can be a weapon.

You don't need to win the series to prove yourself as a rider so if you don't want to race in the wet on production tyres. Likewise if you can't afford wets then just don't race in the wet. So the wet tyre rule could arguably go either way. Production race tyres in the wet are fucking scary. I've done it and crashed a couple of times, but I've also outqualified Jay Lawrence (sorry Jay you're always my benchmark) and Nick Cole in the wet on production tyres (on a non-competitive bike), still not advisable.

[Robert Taylor]

About size.... now do you think that this sport would be as big if we made the rules favour the "smaller" riders.... if thats the case racing would go up due to less entrys and for some silly reason the cost of track hire going up like petrol did and in return putting up entry fees, also with stock suspenison this would also over use a tire therefore nailing the snot out of it by the end of the day having a feel of marbles on the track giving a higher chance of putting the bike upside down and after a few crashes and few bent bits do you think this may over come the price of some after market suspenison.

Please correct me if im wrong but racing in the rain without wets.... hello saftey here please, racing in posties during our wet winter seing some guys on proddie tires showing some really cool slide angles but yet didnt seem to be going fast yet add more horsepower what does this bring to mind.... high side city.
Im a border line fatty when it comes to racing at 93kgs and I feel with the limits on this idea just wouldnt work for me and it seems to be to a few other riders here, but to say we cant go far because of it is to be honest is a bit hasty... does anybody here from the older days remember Kevin "bubbles" grey??? no disrespect to kev but he looked like a tank on a mini moto but yet could run top 10 at national level superbikes, raced overseas also had a offer at the isle, you tell me isnt that a bit further then some of the skinny lads??
yes it was an issue for straight line speed but he worked hard and had a good set of balls on him to make up for it... joys of being a big bastard I guess.
Motorsport is a costly game your a idiot if you think its cheap... we allready have a street stock class and now a pro twin if you dont wanna spend heaps of money on racing street stock it is, if you have a bit extra then pro twins is the next step but why have another stock class??
Shauns idea is great its alot like the sv rent a racer in 2001 but once again no disrespect I feel that this will only last 2 years even with a good following and I only say that due to nz just isnt big enough for it (I would love to be proving wrong here I really do)
Hopefully I havent rocked the boat to much here.

( Cynically ) I think if many of the classes were half the cost ( impossible without socialist style subsidies ) there would still be those bemoaning the cost.

[jrandom]

( Cynically ) I think if many of the classes were half the cost ( impossible without socialist style subsidies ) there would still be those bemoaning the cost.

Perhaps so, but there'd be twice as many happily getting on with it.

[DEATH_INC.]

My 2c....
I ran stock suspension on my old shitta (50,000 k old too) for ages, still fairly competitive on the taupo short track where power wasn't an issue (and even the long track...to a point), and I weighed in at a 'healthy' 100+ kgs....New stock suspension would be fine I reckon :)
anything that gets the costs down is cool by me.

[Robert Taylor]

Perhaps so, but there'd be twice as many happily getting on with it.

That remains to be seen I think

[cowpoos]

My 2c....
I ran stock suspension on my old shitta (50,000 k old too) for ages, still fairly competitive on the taupo short track where power wasn't an issue (and even the long track...to a point), and I weighed in at a 'healthy' 100+ kgs....New stock suspension would be fine I reckon :)
anything that gets the costs down is cool by me.


Errrrrm....how stock...was your stock suspension Fella?? I think a few of us know how bright you are in this arena...are you saying you nevber had a play??

[Cleve]

Errrrrm....how stock...was your stock suspension Fella?? I think a few of us know how bright you are in this arena...are you saying you nevber had a play??

and we are talking RACING here. It is not a cheapy sport for all comers regardless of economy (physical shape, ability, hand eye co-ordination...). I don't like some looters, socialist idea that just because you are poor and jealous and you want to drag everyone down to your level of budget that you can. 600's are not cheap to race a season on regardless. (I know I did it). My 05 R6 in 2006/2007 was bog standard engine wise and a few extra bits in the springy bits and slow down bits, but AFTER that the cost of going to race meets, paying for tyres, entry fees, food gas, sharing a generator, ...etc etc was where a whole lot more costs came in. (In fact so much it is why the wife screamed "NO MORE!!!") If you think you are saving money by sticking with standard bouncy parts, then good on you. Experts say you don't save money in the end, and every one pretty much agrees you go slower with them. So if you race a season what is the point...

[Robert Taylor]

and we are talking RACING here. It is not a cheapy sport for all comers regardless of economy (physical shape, ability, hand eye co-ordination...). I don't like some looters, socialist idea that just because you are poor and jealous and you want to drag everyone down to your level of budget that you can. 600's are not cheap to race a season on regardless. (I know I did it). My 05 R6 in 2006/2007 was bog standard engine wise and a few extra bits in the springy bits and slow down bits, but AFTER that the cost of going to race meets, paying for tyres, entry fees, food gas, sharing a generator, ...etc etc was where a whole lot more costs came in. (In fact so much it is why the wife screamed "NO MORE!!!") If you think you are saving money by sticking with standard bouncy parts, then good on you. Experts say you don't save money in the end, and every one pretty much agrees you go slower with them. So if you race a season what is the point...

Yes, the politics of envy. So endemic in this country. You do make vaild points about the ''incidental'' costs and getting to and from.

[jrandom]

Sounds to me like yous fullas could do with a pin-up girl to relieve some tension over.

<img src="http://dimpost.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/ayn_rand1.jpg"/>

[Coyote]

I believe only people will tonnes of money should be allowed to race. The poor should be too busy working to feed the rich. Fuck you socialist cunts. Rarr.

[Robert Taylor]

I believe only people will tonnes of money should be allowed to race. The poor should be too busy working to feed the rich. Fuck you socialist cunts. Rarr.

I thought that in practice it was the other way round i.e ''work harder, millions on welfare depend on you''

[Robert Taylor]

Sounds to me like yous fullas could do with a pin-up girl to relieve some tension over.

<img src="http://dimpost.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/ayn_rand1.jpg"/>

Heck that now explains fully the twisted nature of many of your posts! Time for a serious update.

[Tony.OK]

Ya know what they say Robert...............All this bagging of Aunty Helen...........you're not hiding some secret love fetish are ya? :innocent:

[vtec]

So yeah, how about work my arse off in 3 jobs like Toast so the government can rape me to pay out everyones benefits and I can scrape through my existance but get to race a motorbike once a month. The tax rate sky rockets when you work more than one job.

How about increase cost efficiency. And have a life too, and maybe even a property a wife and a family one day aswell. Racing was robbing me of a future. So few actually make money at it. As has been said, how to make a small fortune from racing? Start with a large fortune, here we have an idea that could help people to get a small fortune from a medium one while racing. Will open up racing to far more.

[Shaun]

How about increase cost efficiency. And have a life too, and maybe even a property a wife and a family one day aswell. Racing was robbing me of a future. So few actually make money at it. As has been said, how to make a small fortune from racing? Start with a large fortune, here we have an idea that could help people to get a small fortune from a medium one while racing. Will open up racing to far more.


The whole TOTAL idea of this std of racing, is to try and help create more arses on seats out there! So if ONE does get serious, they then move up the SS600 class with all the fruit.

Racing for the Rider is 95% in the Head:Punk:

My thoughts on this were, if bikes are all the same, it would encourage more into the nats etc? and then if you are showing true potentuall and you are hook line and sinker "as it goes" You can then commit your entire life/income/ to getting the Cash reqd to do like most of our current and past TOP fast riders have done. etc

Before you can Run, you must Walk, Ring a bell this thought to any one who does not think the potentuall of this class has it's good points?:Punk:

Arses on seats again, is all I want to see:shifty:

YES, lower/less quality sus has it's down falls, ie, potentuall crashes etc, but the bike only goes as fast as YOU pull the trigger:rockon: and if you cannot ride STD ok, you could not ride Tricked out gear ok, as the set up etc for Trick gear, is normally a lot furmer, so it can be pushed more by a compient rider. Yes Tricked up gear can be modified to a softer " For example only" setting, But do you actually even Know how to race properly yet? ie, line choice, mind set training, bike set up, tire pressures, ride hight effects, more or less Pre load effect, Wow, it can go on and on just learning to be a racer only.

The fast dudes, are always just going to be fast, and the average, is always only going to be just that, some people are gifted with a strange bent for Speed, and others are just not.

So why not just a standard Low cost class, to get more arses out there, and we will find find a few more starts of the future, I am sure.

[wharfy]

The whole TOTAL idea of this std of racing, is to try and help create more arses on seats out there! So if ONE does get serious, they then move up the SS600 class with all the fruit.........

.........The fast dudes, are always just going to be fast, and the average, is always only going to be just that, some people are gifted with a strange bent for Speed, and others are just not...........

.........So why not just a standard Low cost class, to get more arses out there, and we will find find a few more starts of the future, I am sure.

Yes and even those of us who are never going to be stars can have some fun ( that is only slightly more expensive than golf. :) )

[Coyote]

I thought that in practice it was the other way round i.e ''work harder, millions on welfare depend on you''
Actually, we're both right. The extremely rich weasel out of paying most of their taxes and do everything in their power to keep wages low and stifle unions and a bunch of other shit, the dole bludgers get given money and sell a bit of pot on the side whilst watching the TV they just bought off a shifty character for cheap. Everyone in between gets screwed.

Waaaaaaaayyyyy over generalised, but stereotypes become stereotypes because they're true.

I'm pro-dictatorship, or pro-blowing-the-world-to-shit.

[vtec]

Don't worry Coyote, you don't need to blow the world to shit. Deregulation of the finance system or the financial (non-productive) economy has started a systemic collapse of the worlds financial and wealth system. There will be a new world order at the end of it. Come gold mining/panning with me in the South Island till it's over. hahaha. when lots of businesses have failed and the economy starts to pick up again, there will be business gaps to fill, and entrepreneurialship may yet again be encouraged and rewarding.

I'm pro-dictatorship but only if I get to be the dictator. Half the problem with the world is that the people with power are all old grumpy bureaucrats. That's why nothing gets done. The way they see it, if they have to deal with lots of paperwork and regulations all the time, why shouldn't everybody else.

[wbks]

Actually, we're both right. The extremely rich weasel out of paying most of their taxes and do everything in their power to keep wages low and stifle unions and a bunch of other shit, the dole bludgers get given money and sell a bit of pot on the side whilst watching the TV they just bought off a shifty character for cheap. Everyone in between gets screwed.

Waaaaaaaayyyyy over generalised, but stereotypes become stereotypes because they're true.

I'm pro-dictatorship, or pro-blowing-the-world-to-shit.Ok, Stalin:laugh:

[Coyote]

Ok, Stalin:laugh:
You're on the hit list now.

[jrandom]

Ya know what they say Robert...............All this bagging of Aunty Helen...........you're not hiding some secret love fetish are ya?

That's Ayn Rand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_rand) in the picture. I thought she'd be more to Robert's taste.

Funny, she and Helen do look a bit alike, now that you mention it.

[Robert Taylor]

That's Ayn Rand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_rand) in the picture. I thought she'd be more to Robert's taste.

Funny, she and Helen do look a bit alike, now that you mention it.

You forgot Margaret Thatcher!

[jrandom]

You forgot Margaret Thatcher!

And you call me twisted.

[limbimtimwim]

I would think the stock suspension on a Jap 600 would be designed with an average european male in mind.

So at 80kg most should be just fine on those bikes.

And I think they handle okay and fuel okay. You just need to work with the hand you have been dealt in your choice of machine.

The suspension and fuelling are just distractions.

If I was in a SuperStock 600 race and being beaten horribly, I'd know I'd need to try harder or go home. I couldn't pin my crap lap times on someone having spent money on flash suspension or horsepower, just me.

[Robert Taylor]

I would think the stock suspension on a Jap 600 would be designed with an average european male in mind.

So at 80kg most should be just fine on those bikes.

And I think they handle okay and fuel okay. You just need to work with the hand you have been dealt in your choice of machine.

The suspension and fuelling are just distractions.

If I was in a SuperStock 600 race and being beaten horribly, I'd know I'd need to try harder or go home. I couldn't pin my crap lap times on someone having spent money on flash suspension or horsepower, just me.

Heck, youd better tell everyone involved in World Supersport 600 your thoughts. Nearly all of the riders weigh less than 80kg so ''stock suspension is just fine.'' Also given that the manufacturers often say its ''race bed and fully adjustable'' If many of these marketing types kept continuously saying that the world is flat many may believe it.
The standard fuel mapping on many production fuel injected bikes is ( frankly ) awful. SV1000 is one that springs to mind.
Shauns post about the objectives of his proposal made a lot of sense as he is not for a moment trying to say black is white or vice versa.

[limbimtimwim]

Heck, youd better tell everyone involved in World Supersport 600 your thoughts. Nearly all of the riders weigh less than 80kg so ''stock suspension is just fine.'' Also given that the manufacturers often say its ''race bed and fully adjustable'' If many of these marketing types kept continuously saying that the world is flat many may believe it.I contend your average fat lumpy kiwis who are not in world superstock will do fine, because they'd probably average out around 80kg. Anybody wanting to race in an international race series can afford a suspension and engine person (or at least someone competent at both) to do some work, the cost of travel and entry would far outweigh cost of the bike. Did I miss something or was this a proposal for the whole world, or just NZ?

If you were to say the stock suspension on (say) a stock SV650 was unsafe, I'd tend to agree with you, but modern 600cc sports bikes good enough.

Of course flashy suspension is much better than the stock stuff. I recently had a very short trip on a 1098R and was just amazed at how... uhh.. amazing the suspension was.

The standard fuel mapping on many production fuel injected bikes is ( frankly ) awful. SV1000 is one that springs to mind.So? You roll with it. You keep it where it works best in the rev range, you don't work the throttle like it hates. No one is proposing to race the SV1000 anyway (Like.. Eww..). The suspension and fuelling on any modern 600cc sports bike is more than adequate for going around a race track.

[Robert Taylor]

I contend your average fat lumpy kiwis who are not in world superstock will do fine, because they'd probably average out around 80kg. Anybody wanting to race in an international race series can afford a suspension and engine person (or at least someone competent at both) to do some work, the cost of travel and entry would far outweigh cost of the bike. Did I miss something or was this a proposal for the whole world, or just NZ?

If you were to say the stock suspension on (say) a stock SV650 was unsafe, I'd tend to agree with you, but modern 600cc sports bikes good enough.

Of course flashy suspension is much better than the stock stuff. I recently had a very short trip on a 1098R and was just amazed at how... uhh.. amazing the suspension was.
So? You roll with it. You keep it where it works best in the rev range, you don't work the throttle like it hates. No one is proposing to race the SV1000 anyway (Like.. Eww..). The suspension and fuelling on any modern 600cc sports bike is more than adequate for going around a race track.

Then we have to disagree, it seems so many in this country think near enough is good enough. Little wonder I see the disastrous results of it on a weekly basis.

[Shaun]

Then we have to disagree, it seems so many in this country think near enough is good enough. Little wonder I see the disastrous results of it on a weekly basis.




I think you need to slow down a little with your replies on here Robert.

Your reply above was in relation to some one saying that the standard product on Suzuki or Honda or yamaha or Kawasaki was safe enough to put on the track!

Your replie reads that the standard product these companies release there bikes with is Disastrous!

That is a very big thing to be saying mate.

I can understand you seeing disastrous results from people trying to modify what they do not know about, but the base product is safe and reasnoable quality, or the USA people would be suing all importers for all there road crashes! "Fact" " It is the USA way"

I won the Isle of man in 03, using standard internalls in both my bikes, just oil and spring changes only, so not such a bad product really, and you know how fussy I can be with bike set up

[Cleve]

That's Ayn Rand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_rand) in the picture. I thought she'd be more to Robert's taste.

Funny, she and Helen do look a bit alike, now that you mention it.

There is a smart man who knows his stuff. Atlas Shrugged. Best book ever and still relevant. A must read... (does she really look like Helen??!)

[Robert Taylor]

I think you need to slow down a little with your replies on here Robert.

Your reply above was in relation to some one saying that the standard product on Suzuki or Honda or yamaha or Kawasaki was safe enough to put on the track!

Your replie reads that the standard product these companies release there bikes with is Disastrous!

That is a very big thing to be saying mate.

I can understand you seeing disastrous results from people trying to modify what they do not know about, but the base product is safe and reasnoable quality, or the USA people would be suing all importers for all there road crashes! "Fact" " It is the USA way"

I won the Isle of man in 03, using standard internalls in both my bikes, just oil and spring changes only, so not such a bad product really, and you know how fussy I can be with bike set up

Yes I hear you, what I said was in haste and could easily have been misconstrued. I do though see disatrous results often as a result of the diy attitude.

For constantly seeking improvement to what is mediocrity I offer no apology.

Point of fact that same bike you won the I of M on had an Ohlins rear shock and if anyone was going to be able to get away with stock front fork internals it was you, given your light body mass. Different on a closed permanent race course though.

[svr]

There is a smart man who knows his stuff. Atlas Shrugged. Best book ever and still relevant. A must read... (does she really look like Helen??!)

Unfortunately for Rand-style certaintist Objectivism, advances in science and philosophy have revealed her the dinosaur in thought that she is in appearance.
And anyway the best book ever written is Pirsig's `Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'.

[Cleve]

Unfortunately for Rand-style certaintist Objectivism, advances in science and philosophy have revealed her the dinosaur in thought that she is in appearance.
And anyway the best book ever written is Pirsig's `Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'.

indeed also a good read... but surely you can imagine a race bike made of Reardon Metal ...

[Cleve]

Unfortunately for Rand-style certaintist Objectivism, advances in science and philosophy have revealed her the dinosaur in thought that she is in appearance.

But to diverge a little more I disagree that the philosophy of objectivism is irrelevant because a "sci fi" novel got a few things about the future wrong...
Objectivism holds that the moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness, that the only social system is one of full respect for individual rights.

It says that fascism, socialism and communism – any form of state intervention in society – is systemically and fatally flawed.

No dinosaurs there...

[Scoot_6R]

Learn dude learn...if youy are that fast you will have to anyway.
You don't get to the top of anything in life with out hard work and sacrifice..
if you put a average effort in...you get average result out..

I think the sort of thing you and glenn are pushing for is grossly unfair...you guy weight shit all of anything...stock bike DO NOT HANDLE...I say that again...DO NOT HANDLE WELL!!! for heavier people...and taller people...I don't car what crasher and scrivy say...pete is a lil fella and scrivy is hardly big...neither yourself or sketch are big either....so why penilise us?? because that is what your doing...shaun is also not a big man. I rode the 810 how he had it set up for its originoal owner...and glenn was not a big man but he loved it!...but to me..handled like a piece of shit...put the brakes on...straight into a vicious stoppie after blowing through the full stroke of the forks in a instant...turned way way too fast...and I screwed a brand new rear racetech in three sessions at a manfield test day..dispite the ohlins on the rear..why all this??? the suspension was completely wrong for my size and weight... but that same bike...before I rode it...was praised so so very very highly by White trash as being the best bike he had ever riden...doing everything he asked of it...and felt fantastic...can you imagine why that could be??? it is the lack of physical precence the dude has...[thats a nice way of saying it aye Jimmie]...

So tell me...not just you Vtec...any of you...how wrong I am???

and yes...I think Shauns concept is good...cheap racing!! he's bound to get peoples attention...and he has..and good on him!!...but it far from provides a level playing field...supersport is much closer.

But hey...we have protwins...if you want to go faster...we have supersport. and motorsport ain't cheap...deal with it!! and the people at the top have paid for a hell of alot of lunches in thier time!!

Amen to that!!