Lest we forget... New Zealand's shame

[Winston001]

Delcilia Witika age 2....beaten to death by her mother and step-father

Pirimai Simmonds age 17 months......killed by his father

Mereana Edmonds age 6.........kicked to death by her mother

James Whakaruru age 4....beaten to death by his mothers partner because he wouldn't call him Daddy

Tamati Pokia age 3......... killed by foster father for popcorn in his lunch box

Olympia Jetson and Saliel Aplin age 11 and 12........killed by their stepfather

Kelly Gush age 12..........beaten to death by stepfather

Coral-Ellen Burrows age 6.......murdered by crackhead stepfather

Tangaroa Matiu age 3..........fatally beaten with a fence picket and toilet brush

Lillybing age 23 months...........beaten, scalded, and genitally mutilated and shaken to death

The Kahui twins, babies.......beaten to death by family members unknown

Nia Glassie age 3.........placed in clothes dryer, swung on clothesline, used as a wrestling-bag, dead

Jyniah Te Awa age 10 months.......beaten to death by her caregiver for being ugly

[marty]

Sue Bradford must be real proud of her efforts.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Rest in piece little ones now you are safe.

[Trudes]

I was going to have a big rant about how this shit makes me fucking sick etc, but instead all I have to say is rest in peace to the poor little kids who never got a chance in life, probably better off really than the years and years of torture and abuse they probably would've had to endure.:weep:

[Magua]

What drives a person to hurt those who can't even fight back, the most defenceless, a child. :@

[Brian d marge]

YES

How can a culture stand by with any mana and let that happen ,


Stephen

Disclaimer

words chosen carefully , and it happens in every country

:angry2::2guns: .................................................. .................................................. ................ :thud:

Me ( the Judge and Jury ) .................................................. .................................................. ... Savage



Justice Done

[naphazoline]

fucking sick cunts :angry2:
those murdering bastards deserve to be tortured slowly :bash:

[RantyDave]

rest in peace to the poor little kids who never got a chance in life, probably better off really than the years and years of torture and abuse they probably would've had to endure.
It's the minority who die of it, too - very significantly less than the tip of the iceberg.

Dave

[RantyDave]

Sue Bradford must be real proud of her efforts.
As opposed to marty, who's real proud of sitting on his butt.

Dave

[Stirts]

beaten to death by her mother and step-father

killed by his father

kicked to death by her mother

beaten to death by his mothers partner because he wouldn't call him Daddy

killed by foster father for popcorn in his lunch box

killed by their stepfather

beaten to death by stepfather

murdered by crackhead stepfather

fatally beaten with a fence picket and toilet brush

beaten, scalded, and genitally mutilated and shaken to death

beaten to death by family members unknown

tortured by family and friends and mum didn’t give a flying fuck

beaten to death by her mother for being ugly

THESE PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE THEIR SEXUAL ORGANS REMOVED WITH A BLUNT RUSTY KNIFE, SO THEY CAN NEVER EVER FARKEN HAVE ANY KIDS

[Hitcher]

The criteria in New Zealand for being able to produce a child are less than for dog ownership. Any fertile ne'er-do-well halfwit oxygen-thieving loser, of either gender, is able to procreate at will. And they do. Frequently.

Addressing child abuse is arguably tantamount to having the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.

All countries have underclasses. New Zealand is no exception in that regard. Underclasses have different ways of doing things than those more enlighted by positive parenting and a reasonable education.

An issue is how much money should continue to be thrown at an underclass that is quite happy to take without realising that there is some sort of expectation that in return for taxpayer and other financial assistance, they should do something to contribute positively to their families and to the communities that support them.

[Winston001]

Sue Bradford must be real proud of her efforts.

Nice troll.

These deaths have nothing to do with Sue Bradford etc, most of these kids were dead long before the child discipline law was toughened. They are one reason the law was changed.

However any law is irrelevant cos these families are outside it.

As Dave said, these are only the extreme cases, there are hundreds of kids who survive and go on to be abusers themselves. Tragic.

[short-circuit]

What the fuck got you lot going? What is the point of a thread like this?

I think (for me anyway) the whole rave section should be avoided

[Kiwi Graham]

The're at peace now. I just hope the bastards out there that are inflicting this abuse on helpless children realise that when we catch you, you're going to get the full force of the law thrown at you and then, when inside you'll get far worse than you ever did to the kids in your care. Rot in hell bastards.

[fire eyes]

:(

+ 10 characters

[Winston001]

What the fuck got you lot going? What is the point of a thread like this?

I think (for me anyway) the whole rave section should be avoided if this thread is anything to go by

Your reaction - and others - is the point. You don't want to discuss this, fair enough. Others do.

And I think the time is long past for talking. Violence against children is one of the few things which I'm passionate about stopping. I've watched and listened as Ministers of the Crown and community workers talk and promise for 15 years - and still it goes on.

There isn't an easy answer. There isn't one answer. But damn it, there has to be something we can do to change things. There will always be a few sick types but at the moment NZ has far more than its fair share.

[Badjelly]

What the fuck got you lot going? What is the point of a thread like this?


Your reaction - and others - is the point. You don't want to discuss this, fair enough. Others do.

So far, this thread hasn't been a discussion, it's been yet another KB righteous indignation contest.

What's needed? Tougher laws on child abuse? More intervention by CYFS? Overhaul of the benefit system? Discuss away.

[marty]

As opposed to marty, who's real proud of sitting on his butt.

Dave

a big assumption to make dave.

so today, while sitting in town waiting for someone, I was privy to a conversation along the lines of 'aunty is beating her kids but i'm not a nark - someone needs to give her the bash'

i couldn't stand it, so i left.









actually, i confronted the lady and reminded her of recent events, and that she would not be a nark, but instead she may save someone's life. i thought i was going to get the bash, but instead she thanked me, and said she was going to say something to the aunty.


so dave, what are you doing?

[imdying]

Fuck it, let em kill each other... one less coon is only doing the world a favour anyway.

[mdnzz]

a big assumption to make dave.

so today, while sitting in town waiting for someone, I was privy to a conversation along the lines of 'aunty is beating her kids but i'm not a nark - someone needs to give her the bash'

i couldn't stand it, so i left.

actually, i confronted the lady and reminded her of recent events, and that she would not be a nark, but instead she may save someone's life. i thought i was going to get the bash, but instead she thanked me, and said she was going to say something to the aunty.


so dave, what are you doing?

I applaud you.

That is exactly what is needed and more people should grow the balls an step up to these wasted spaces that inhabit our country.

If people stood in front of a child being beaten, how often do you think the offender is likely to attack a person who can defend themselves.

Yes there are some out there that would, but for an assault on an adult they can get 7 years in prison.

What do you get for bashing, maiming a defenceless child?

These types of people are gutless spineless weaklings who prey on the defenceless
and deserve nothing, no benefits, no support, NO OXYGEN

[Katman]

Jyniah Te Awa age 10 months.......beaten to death by her mother for being ugly

I would suggest if you're going to post such an emotive thread you get all your facts right.

It was the child's babysitter (the mother's cousin) responsible for her death.

[naphazoline]

...... and then, when inside you'll get far worse than you ever did to the kids in your care. Rot in hell bastards.

yeah...as much as some of those prison inmates are scum,at least they'll deal to these pyschopathic so called parents. it's a bit oxymoronic really,to think that a violent offender still has some sort of morals, when it comes to child abuse.
it's just a matter of getting them in prison,as it seems that some get off through the justice system.

p.s
sorry if i'm raving on,but i feel EXTREMELY strongly about this sort of subject.
no child deserves to be treated like these children have,leastly by the parents/guardians :(

[vifferman]

While these (perhaps extreme?) examples are terrible, you are making some generalisations about the culture, race and circumstances of child abuse.

[imdying]

While these (perhaps extreme?) examples are terrible, you are making some generalisations about the culture, race and circumstances of child abuse.Well we only see what the media shows us... but generally looks like the 'natives', instead of standing up for the children, join in the 'fun'... I honestly expect if I were in that position, my friends would beat the ever loving shite out of me, as I would richly deserve, and vice versa.

[R6_kid]

Maybe executing a few, if not all of those found undeniably guilty of these atrocities will send out the right message. I really don't understand the thought processes these people possess - if they have a thought process at all.

They are a stain on our countries image and a disgrace to their families and to their peoples heritage.

[imdying]

Part of me loves that idea, but where to stop? Parents that let their kids become obese from too much Playstation and junk food? Whack them too? Having a lot of fat cunts digraces the country too... look at the redicule heaped upon the yanks..

[vifferman]

Well we only see what the media shows us... but generally looks like the 'natives', instead of standing up for the children, join in the 'fun'.
It's (to use a cliche) an ongoing cycle of violence.
There are hidden (though usually less extreme) examples of violence against children, promulgated by fundamentalist religions preaching "spare the rod and spoil the child", and these do not pertain to any particular ethnic group. You throw that sort of teaching into a situation where a parent is tired from working long hours, has a difficult child, is frustrated because he/she doesn't know how to handle disobedience or what seems like willful naughtiness, and you end up with abuse.
I guess that's still cultural. Even today, many cultures (religious or otherwise) embrace physical chastisement as acceptable.

[Winston001]

I would suggest if you're going to post such an emotive thread you get all your facts right.

It was the child's babysitter (the mother's cousin) responsible for her death.

Agreed - fixed. Ironically I checked sources for each except her, because I had a newspaper article about her death open at the time.


None of which excuses the fact that a young woman battered a baby slowly, over a month and a half, to death.

[<Rhino>]

Part of me loves that idea, but where to stop? Parents that let their kids become obese from too much Playstation and junk food? Whack them too? Having a lot of fat cunts digraces the country too... look at the redicule heaped upon the yanks..

Having people like you that walk around thinking their hollier than fucking thou is a discrace too! coons this - fucking fat cunts that.......pfffft, wanker! Must be fucken hard being perfect eh!!

[imdying]

Having people like you that walk around thinking their hollier than fucking thou is a discrace too! coons this - fucking fat cunts that.......pfffft, wanker! Must be fucken hard being perfect eh!!Let me guess... you're a fat coon?

[naphazoline]

It's (to use a cliche) an ongoing cycle of violence.
There are hidden (though usually less extreme) examples of violence against children, promulgated by fundamentalist religions preaching "spare the rod and spoil the child", and these do not pertain to any particular ethnic group. You throw that sort of teaching into a situation where a parent is tired from working long hours, has a difficult child, is frustrated because he/she doesn't know how to handle disobedience or what seems like willful naughtiness, and you end up with abuse.
I guess that's still cultural. Even today, many cultures (religious or otherwise) embrace physical chastisement as acceptable.

maybe so....but there's a BIG difference between a smack on the hand/arse,as opposed to what's happened to these children.

[imdying]

maybe so....but there's a BIG difference between a smack on the hand/arse,as opposed to what's happened to these children.But where does it start? I guess there must be some that start out with the beatings, but it seems logical that most would start with a smack here and there?

[<Rhino>]

Let me guess... you're a fat coon?

How did I know you would come back with that!! oh right simplistic predictability. :baby:

[imdying]

How did I know you would come back with that!! oh right simplistic predictability. :baby:I was dumbing it down to fat coon level for you :rolleyes:

[naphazoline]

But where does it start? I guess there must be some that start out with the beatings, but it seems logical that most would start with a smack here and there?

when i grew up,i got a smacked bum if i was naughty,as many people here over the age of about thirty would have.there was also the cane/strap at high school and at primary school.
i'm still alive,and i never heard of any teachers KILLING kids.
using your logic,we should all be dead

[imdying]

when i grew up,i got a smacked bum if i was naughty,as many people here over the age of about thirty would have.there was also the cane/strap at high school and at primary school.
i'm still alive,and i never heard of any teachers KILLING kids.
using your logic,we should all be deadSorry, I wasn't implying that every person has a fucked up node in their brain that automatically moved them down such a dark path, just that those that do have such disabilities most likely started out with 'just a smack'.

[NighthawkNZ]

What drives a person to hurt those who can't even fight back, the most defenceless, a child. :@

I have never understood that either... All the child is wanting at that age is pure love and attention.,.. :doh: the creamy marshmellow side of me is showing.... :doh:

But when you see a list of them all together, makes you think... :wtf:

[Hitcher]

They're at peace now.

That's true at one level. But no child, or any other living creature, deserves the deliberate and sustained torture many of those listed in the first post in this thread must have endured.

The worst thing about this is that the appalling list that started this thread, is only a partial count of those children who have lost their lives as a consequence of domestic violence. And I shudder when I think of the hundreds, if not thousands more, who have "survived" abuse of this type and are exposed to it daily as part of their "normal" lives.

Worse still, I feel burdened by not being able to do anything about it. Buying and wearing a white ribbon only shows my revulsion. It will not make the pain stop for thousands of kids in New Zealand tonight.

[naphazoline]

Sorry, I wasn't implying that every person has a fucked up node in their brain that automatically moved them down such a dark path, just that those that do have such disabilities most likely started out with 'just a smack'.

oh....ok:Oops:

[chrisso]

WTF has happened to NZ...........im glad I left

[vifferman]

maybe so....but there's a BIG difference between a smack on the hand/arse,as opposed to what's happened to these children.
It's a matter of degree - it's not that hard to go from a 'simple smack' to several harder 'simple smacks'. Throw in alcohol, tiredness, frustration or whatever and it can easily go too far.

But where does it start? I guess there must be some that start out with the beatings, but it seems logical that most would start with a smack here and there?
Yeah.

when i grew up,i got a smacked bum if i was naughty,as many people here over the age of about thirty would have.there was also the cane/strap at high school and at primary school.
i'm still alive,and i never heard of any teachers KILLING kids.
using your logic,we should all be dead
All? Well, maybe only those subject to 'discipline' from "damaged" adults that didn't know how/when to stop, or couldn't.
Take for instance kids that laugh (nervously or hysterically) when they're smacked; that could provoke an already angry adult into going too far.
And it's the thin edge of the wedge, if the adult doesn't realise he/she has gone too far and goes too far again. And again....

[Hitcher]

Maybe executing a few, if not all of those found undeniably guilty of these atrocities will send out the right message.

New Zealand's underclasses don't read the newspaper or watch the 6:00pm news. They don't think they're doing anything wrong. How do you propose delivering the "right message" to them?

[naphazoline]

the creamy marshmellow side of me is showing....


something, i feel, that the parents/guardians of these poor kids had none of.

[short-circuit]

Your reaction - and others - is the point. You don't want to discuss this, fair enough. Others do.

And I think the time is long past for talking.


So your answer is what? Start up a thread/rant. That's constructive. I see it's been overtaken by racists and hysterical "cut their balls off" (sensible sentencing trust) types.


I use the site for bike related info/contacts etc. Sometimes I'm guilty of being curious enough to venture into corners of the site I shouldn't - like this one.


Why don't you stick to talkback back for this shit.

[imdying]

How do you propose delivering the "right message" to them?Heads on stakes outside the local pub.

[98tls]

So your answer is what? Start up a thread/rant. That's constructive. I see it's been overtaken by racists and hysterical "cut their balls off" (sensible sentencing trust) types. Them i dont mind but sure as eggs are eggs there will be a faggot along shortly to fuck things up.:no:

[naphazoline]

So your answer is what? Start up a thread/rant. That's constructive. I see it's been overtaken by racists and hysterical "cut their balls off" (sensible sentencing trust) types.


I use the site for bike related info/contacts etc. Sometimes I'm guilty of being curious enough to venture into corners of the site I shouldn't - like this one.

Why don't you stick to talkback back for this shit.


not sure what you're getting all excited about,but this is the "rant or rave" section.

[quote from kiwi biker forum page]

Rant or Rave
***Talk about any non-motorbike stuff here***:doh:

[naphazoline]

All? Well, maybe only those subject to 'discipline' from "damaged" adults that didn't know how/when to stop, or couldn't.....


that's a fair point.

[Mom]

New Zealand's underclasses don't read the newspaper or watch the 6:00pm news. They don't think they're doing anything wrong. How do you propose delivering the "right message" to them?

Neither are these all dark skinned either. I fostered children for many years, and without a doubt the worst cases of neglect and abuse came from what I can only term "white trash" homes.

I was raised in a very dysfunctional home, complete with the black eyes, split lips/ears from a drunkard father, and nursed my alcoholic Mother through a broken jaw and pelvis. The training I undertook before fostering focused in large parts on the reasons why abuse happens, as a parent I could not get my head around some of the stuff I had heard about happening to children. I simply could not understand how people could treat kids like they did.

I got out of my family in reasonable shape, so what made me able to do that and not others. It boils down to experience outside of the home. These families are isolated within a very tiny sphere of contacts. All of their associates on a personal level are the same as them, there are no "good" examples on display. They are poor, makes no difference why they have no money, they dont. They dont go out to churches, sports clubs etc where they may be exposed to a more "normal" way of dealing with stuff. No amount of intervention makes a difference.

The worst case I ever had to deal with was three little (white) girls who were found living in squalor, sleeping in one room with a urine soaked matress on the floor for a bed and exceta of unknow origin all over the house. The social workers had to literally wade through rubbish when they went in the house. These children had been living on dog food! I wont go on, but it was worse than appalling!

I was dreading meeting the mother of these children at the first supervised access. I simply was at a loss as to how she could have allowed this to happen, until I saw her. She was 23 (her children 8, 6 & 5). She was playing football with the eldest one (at this point I did not realise who she was) and my first thought was "my God this woman needs to be taken into care". Later testing showed this poor female could not demonstrate how to cross a road safely herslf, or even make a peanut butter sandwich. Her mother (not quite 40) was there also, she had just had her 8 year old twins taken off her.

There it was, generational abuse, right in my face. The file on this family was a foot thick, they had been the recipients of so much intervention and still the abuse went on.

These little girls were permanently removed from the family and placed with new families. You see the adds in the paper sometimes. The little silhouette child looking for a new family. There was nothing that could be done to prevent this woman having more children. Incredibly sad.

[Mom]

I see it's been overtaken by racists and hysterical "cut their balls off" (sensible sentencing trust) types.

I beg to differ quite strongly mate.


Why don't you stick to talkback back for this shit.


Why dont you take a quick peek at the subject of the thread and if you dont like it dont read further. Seriously mate, it is a free world, no-one is forcing you to read, let alone comment.

[ManDownUnder]

...

Just so you know - I can't give you bling - I ran out. And dammit - you already have my respect. What now?

MDU

[Mom]

What now? MDU

I would have said oral sex, but that would have been naughty and off topic, and Maha would disapprove :sunny:

Thanks MDU!

[vifferman]

I would have said oral sex, but that would have been naughty

That IS naughty!
But that's two good posts in a row, and I could only bling for one.:weep:

[short-circuit]

not sure what you're getting all excited about,but this is the "rant or rave" section.

[quote from kiwi biker forum page]

Rant or Rave
***Talk about any non-motorbike stuff here***:doh:


I'm not saying you don't have the right to discuss non-biking issues.


I was asking Winston's motive was for starting the thread and then later lamenting the predictable venomous/vengeful/simplistic/blaming/racist/axe-grinding/confused/apathetic responses.


To the person who anonymously red repped me and told me "well fuck off then"...congratulations on finding a forum where you can feel big at the expense of someone else and do it in secret. No doubt you have some really insightful ideas on how to reduce child abuse and family violence along with other serious social issues. I'll now do exactly as you suggested and "fuck off" now.

[naphazoline]

I'm not saying you don't have the right to discuss non-biking issues.


I was asking Winston's motive was for starting the thread and then later lamenting the predictable venomous/vengeful/simplistic/blaming/racist/axe-grinding/confused/apathetic responses.


sorry sc.


[/QUOTE]To the person who anonymously red repped me and told me "well fuck off then"...congratulations on finding a forum where you can feel big at the expense of someone else and do it in secret. No doubt you have some really insightful ideas on how to reduce child abuse and family violence along with other serious social issues. I'll no do exactly as you suggested and "fuck off now".[/QUOTE]

i've only given out green.

[short-circuit]

sorry sc.

All good naphazoline. Leaving now this time...for good...promise.

[scumdog]

All good naphazoline. Leaving now this time...for good...promise.

A big jug of HTFU would help you - what ya gonna do with all the other bits of your life that are not as nice as you would like? run?

Stick around, enjoy the circus.

[vifferman]

i've only given out green.
+1

But... you can give rep anonymously....?

:shifty:


:pinch: I don't feel strongly enough about anyone to red-bling them.:crybaby:

[naphazoline]

+1

But... you can give rep anonymously....?


nah...i'd rather tell someone what's on my mind then do that in secret.the rep shit means nothing to me.after all,this stuff is only internet conversation,so i'd rather just give green.
pretty hard to pass judgement on someone ya don't know,but if it makes ya feel better,put all ya bad rep on me.i couldn't give a flying fuck :cool:

[Maha]

All good naphazoline. Leaving now this time...for good...promise.

You mean for ever and ever amen???
The rep system can be a good thing in that, the bad comments left by someone you dont know must surely come from a very very uptight person. Well, thats the I see it. They must think (in thier own little world) that they are hurting you with a little red dot.

There should be an option in your User CP added to have or not have rep received!!!

Maybe Mental Pants Wearer could attend to this??

[Winston001]

I was asking Winston's motive was for starting the thread and then later lamenting the predictable venomous/vengeful/simplistic/blaming/racist/axe-grinding/confused/apathetic responses.


Can't recall lamenting anything, usually I wait a while to see what others say.

My motive? Guess I just snapped. I've been horrified at the continuing violence against children ever since Delcilia Witika in 1991. Sadly these tragedies tend to be dealt with by the public one at a time, and our memories fade.

I've always wanted a comprehensive list of the most well-known cases so I could reflect on the totality of lives destroyed. Found some data today, and here we are.

Forums like this are quite different to talk-back radio. For one thing, to use an internet forum you need a certain level of education and ability to express yourself - not that it's always obvious. :D

Also there are some very intelligent and thoughtful people here whose views are valuable. Sharing ideas and experiences - eg Mom's heartfelt post above - is crucial in any society and this is a good place to do it.

[Mom]

I always made my kids memorise my phone number. They knew no matter what if they rang it someone would come help them.

I had one family of three kids for 15 months, they were going back to their mother. As foster parents we are not allowed to know anything about how these kids fare back in their families. The eldest boy was crying, he was 11. I said to him, "you may not remember our names, you may not remember the town, you may not remember the school you went to, but I promise you, you will never forget us!" He wont either.

I have had one phone call from a foster child gone back, about 6 months after, he rang from Australia to say he had a new "cocky" (cockatile). After a few moments he said his Dad was coming for a visit. I reassured him it would go well, and to ring me if it didn't. Never heard from him again...LOL

I have had one phone call from a social worker. She brought me up to speed with what the outcome for one family was. I thanked her for that.

You can make a difference you know, it is all about commitment and perserverance and sheer bloody mindedness. Pity of it is you get no support for trying. I dont foster anymore.

[short-circuit]

Nah - didn't mean it...some sucker for punishment part of me can't seem to stay away for long. It's similar to how despite myself I open the Herald in the morning or turn on the news at night. Never been able to endure talkback though.

As for rep - it doesn't really bother me either. In fact I'm rather proud of my ratio 7 red to 15 green in my short KB tenure (being a lefty and a shit stirrer it's par for the course). The red bling distributors amuse me (especially the anonymous ones)

[short-circuit]

Can't recall lamenting anything

That was me doing the lamenting as I knew what would follow as soon as I read the thread title

[Mom]

Nah - didn't mean it...some sucker for punishment part of me can't seem to stay away for long. It's similar to how despite myself I open the Herald in the morning or turn on the news at night. Never been able to endure talkback though.

As for rep - it doesn't really bother me either. In fact I'm rather proud of my ratio 7 red to 15 green in my short KB tenure (being a lefty and a shit stirrer it's par for the course). The red bling distributors amuse me (especially the anonymous ones)

Glad it amuses you, I have not red repped you FWIW, you are not worth the effort, either contribute something worthwhile to this thread or go away! Your constant off topic posts are becoming annoying.

[short-circuit]

Glad it amuses you, I have not red repped you FWIW, you are not worth the effort, either contribute something worthwhile to this thread or go away! Your constant off topic posts are becoming annoying.

Sorry I'll leave you to your therapy in peace

[Winston001]

As for rep - it doesn't really bother me either. In fact I'm rather proud of my ratio 7 red to 15 green in my short KB tenure (being a lefty and a shit stirrer it's par for the course). The red bling distributors amuse me (especially the anonymous ones)

You can't see who repped you until you've racked up 140 posts (I think).

You do care about this - but you think that because this is a bikers forum, all discussion will inevitably be low-brow knee-jerk hang the child-abusers. Not so.

Instead there are foster parents, police, social workers, journalists, psychiatric nurses, etc etc here who do understand this tortuous subject - and have thoughtful contributions to make.

We aren't going to save the world but maybe, just maybe, someone will have a great idea and others will pick up on it.

[Mom]

Sorry I'll leave you to your therapy in peace

MMMMMMMM massage therapy is my fave :blip: Stick around the forum a bit longer mate, you may actually find it broadens your horizons :yes:


We aren't going to save the world but maybe, just maybe, someone will have a great idea and others will pick up on it.


Lets hope so anyway!

[Skyryder]

(being a lefty and a shit stirrer it's par for the course). The red bling distributors amuse me (especially the anonymous ones)

:niceone:


Skyryder

[candor]

I have personal knowledge of case 3 on the first post. The killer Mum was certainly not to blame. It was trial by media and the lynch her mob.

She killed her beautiful daughter of about 6.

Recounting it to my memory - a while since I heard the horror story being mulled over and over by a traumatised family member. Mum had not wanted the daughter back being a schizophrenic in a bad relationship, who was often homeless with bad addictions, and who had just got out of prison.

CYPs insisted.

Many in the wider family / whanau strongly and repeatedly expressed that this would be UNSAFE. Their calls, letters and views were ignored. Mum was delusional.

CYPs then tried to get the wider family to take the girl. None were able themselves right then due to all having varying degrees of problems or jobs that did not enable taking up this responsibility (in case of the family member I know well).

CYPs said that they'd give her to the mother - all again objected in every possible way.

Wider family was not in close contact with the mother (too difficult to maintain relationship with). A couple of weeks or so later they heard the girl HAD been placed with the clearly unsuitable Mum who had not wanted to take her - and was DEAD. Can you imagine?

The wider family who loved the little girl, despite not having and knowing they did not have resources to take the kid, have deep grief and carry the murder vics photos with them all the time. In the blink of an eye CYPs sneakily pulled this one.

The media painted the entire family as evil reprobates. They are not. CYPs was the guilty party 100%, with its determination to put Maori kids with their whanau - at any price, even if prospective "caregivers" are clearly well documented card carrying crazies.

The word MUM does not equal "right place to go," as CYPs must learn.

Two decades ago the child would have been placed in long term fostering. Politial correctness and "cultural safety" agendas stopped such high levels of intervention. Its all about self determination. We don't need paternalism said the academics, on behalf of those of other cultures and of those with mental health issues - let us look after our own issues. The State must answer for too often wiping its hands.

[SARGE]

Jyniah Te Awa age 10 months.......beaten to death by her caregiver for being ugly



sweet jebus im in trouble..


seriously.. paint the fuckheads that do that day-glo green and chuck them onto with the streets and tell everyone they are full of lollies and gold coins

[Mom]

The State must answer for too often wiping its hands.

The needs and welfare of the child are paramount! *cough*bullshit*cough*

[Skyryder]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/crime/news/article.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=148329


Maybe Candor has point.


Skyryder

[mstriumph]

first thought was i would severely damage anyone i caught abusing an ANIMAL, let alone a child .... irrespective of any 'reason' they have for doing it ..... there's no excuse, none.

my second thought is the memory of when i was trying, on my own, a brand new mother caring for a brand new prem. daughter ... who had to be fed two-hourly and who screamed and vomited for what seemed for 3 days solid [the Doctor said she was fine and i'd just have to learn to 'manage' her ......] she wouldn't be comforted no matter what i did .......... i was so tired - i just wanted it to stop

did i hurt her? no, of course not [i fell into an exhausted sleep eventually and so did she - things were fine after that ....]

but i can still remember [and still feel guilty about] how i JUST WANTED IT TO STOP

i obviously wasn't taken to my limits - but perhaps some people are .... when they have no support, no way out .......... and no-one to give a hand or throw them a lifeline .....

third thought ... none of us live in a vacuum ----- where were the neighbours? the health workers? ..... do we so sincerely fear being thought interfering that we'd let a child suffer when we could stop it by speaking up? [or, better, introducing ourselves into the situation to see if we can lend a hand if someone seems near the end of their tether ?

fourth thought ... why is it that, for most jobs, one needs training, qualifications, etc but that for the most important job of all - having and raising children - one needs nothing at all except a partner with a contrasting set of genetailia and a few moments of privacy? hmmmm?

[piston broke]

i don't even want to read past post 1.so i won't.
shit like that just breaks my heart.
rip all you lil ones:weep:

[Brett]

Why the f*uck was there NO ONE around to protect these children? I mean, they must have come into contact with at least DOZENS of poeple every week in the families etc who knew at the minimum, that something was not right.

I abhor these people and would like to see them hung up to rot. I feel that the jury should be able to voice in particular cases that they feel that the crime warrants the death penalty. that way, it is the feelings of 12 people that the person should die, not just a judge. Those two cocks who killed Nia, the dumb bitch of tortured Jynia etc are perfect examples.

[Mikkel]

All the child is wanting at that age is pure love and attention.,.. :doh:

Parenting is not about giving kids what they want - but giving them what they need.

...and what kids need at that age is just a bit of salt to bring out the flavour.
Marinade isn't required until they've passed the age of 16.


Why the f*uck was there NO ONE around to protect these children? I mean, they must have come into contact with at least DOZENS of poeple every week in the families etc who knew at the minimum, that something was not right.

Because, unlike in physics where plus attracts negative and vice versa, in real life shit attracts shit. That is to say, anyone who commit these crimes are not likely to socialise with people having considerable ethical and moral fiber.

Jones and Smith are not the most common surnames on the list. Just an observation.

[short-circuit]

Jones and Smith are not the most common surnames on the list. Just an observation.


Care to elaborate?

[Hitcher]

Jones and Smith are not the most common surnames on the list. Just an observation.

Neither are Schwartz or Ng.

[Brian d marge]

I have personal knowledge of case 3 on the first post. The killer Mum was certainly not to blame. It was trial by media and the lynch her mob.


Good post

I am as giulty as the next man of trial by media and on saying that there is a ton of room here at my house for any little one who needs it ,,, Yup I could imagine cyps stuffing things up ,,, ...

Stephen

[Mikkel]

Neither are Schwartz or Ng.

No, but those are not common surnames in NZ.

However, if we consider what Mom said:

Neither are these all dark skinned either. I fostered children for many years, and without a doubt the worst cases of neglect and abuse came from what I can only term "white trash" homes.

Seeing no reason to doubt the validity of this statement in any way, I am merely wondering why this is not reflected in the list in the OP. I am not trying to make subtle race based suggestions of any kind - I'm merely curious why this is the case.

[MD]

No offence Winstone and I totally share your disgust at these vile people. but I am tired of being lumped together and expected to bear the shame and responsibility for the actions of a few total strangers. It's not New Zealand's shame. It's certainly not mine as a NZer.

I have no shame, I deserve no shame. So please can I post my unsolicitored guilt share allocation back. I'd rather hold my head up proud for being a good parent.

I wish the media hype-artists and the usual pack of Social Commentators would cease with this dumping collective guilt on us all i.e. the Campbell and Closeup drama queens. The only shame is on the offenders and those that could have safely intervened. Why should I be held 'responsible' for the actions, no matter how horrible, of scum who I have never met, most likely will never meet, and who I have never been in a position to influence or intervene on their actions.

I can feel bad about it, I can feel sad about it, I can feel disgusted about it, I can feel enraged about it - but not shamed.

[Hitcher]

No, but those are not common surnames in NZ.

Neither is it impossible to find "dark skinned" people with the surnames Smith or Jones.

[Genestho]

So your answer is what? Start up a thread/rant. That's constructive. I see it's been overtaken by racists and hysterical "cut their balls off" (sensible sentencing trust) types.


I use the site for bike related info/contacts etc. Sometimes I'm guilty of being curious enough to venture into corners of the site I shouldn't - like this one.


Why don't you stick to talkback back for this shit.

"SST types" are the ones getting off their arses whilst grieving the deaths of loved ones and gettin things changed for "you and yours"..because we have not been protected from those who cannot and will be reposnsible for themselves..
Get educated, sensible sentencing is very misjudged, they are families affected by violent murders and road crime, who dont want balls chopped, they are not capital punishment advocators in secret, they dont have fires and pitch forks..
They want fair and sensible sentences, only they know what it feels like to have a loved one murdered, and then feel let down by the "Justice" system..
If you dont like what ya read, go back to what you prefer! Keep your uneducated thoughts to yourself

[Mikkel]

Neither is it impossible to find "dark skinned" people with the surnames Smith or Jones.

And you suggest this would make their absence on afore mentioned list less curious?

[Mom]

Seeing no reason to doubt the validity of this statement in any way, I am merely wondering why this is not reflected in the list in the OP. I am not trying to make subtle race based suggestions of any kind - I'm merely curious why this is the case.


I once took in 3 kids whos mother had tried to kill them by gassing them in her car in the garage. She had Christopher Harder as her lawyer. It was reported on radio at the time it happened, then disappeared altogether.

He got the charges reduced from attempted murder to intentionally stupifying her children, she got a 12 month suspended sentence.

The reason you dont see white folks shame widely reported is they either have good lawyers, or it is not "sensational" enough to be reported in the press. We all know the darkies are a bad lot after all.

[Winston001]

I have personal knowledge of case 3 on the first post. The killer Mum was certainly not to blame. It was trial by media and the lynch her mob.......

Two decades ago the child would have been placed in long term fostering. Politial correctness and "cultural safety" agendas stopped such high levels of intervention. Its all about self determination. We don't need paternalism said the academics, on behalf of those of other cultures and of those with mental health issues - let us look after our own issues. The State must answer for too often wiping its hands.

Thanks for posting, its good to hear the fuller story.

I can't go along with you about CYPS however. They are a government department staffed by people who have chosen one of the most heartrending occupations possible. CYPS are never right in some peoples eyes.

For centuries society accepted taking children away from bad/incompetant/sick parents. Look at the Stolen Generation debate, and the children shipped from England to Australia etc.

15 years ago child psychology research showed that the first and best place for a child was with its family, even when the adults were damaged. So that became the default position, which is what you describe. Added to that was the recognition that a child's culture could only be preserved by them remaining among that culture.

Which brings us to the unhappy position CYPS are in today. To take a child away from their family, there has to be a very high risk. And there aren't a lot of places for the children to go anyway. So it becomes rather academic. The child remains and the family are watched.............in theory.

Personally I think CYPS should remove children immediately and work out whether the family can be trusted later. That's the price you pay if you want to raise children in our society - or go elsewhere.

Rant over - off to the Burt Munro Rally now, glorious day here. :apint:

[Mikkel]

I once took in 3 kids whos mother had tried to kill them by gassing them in her car in the garage. She had Christopher Harder as her lawyer. It was reported on radio at the time it happened, then disappeared altogether.

He got the charges reduced from attempted murder to intentionally stupifying her children, she got a 12 month suspended sentence.

The mind boggles... :no:


The reason you dont see white folks shame widely reported is they either have good lawyers, or it is not "sensational" enough to be reported in the press. We all know the darkies are a bad lot after all.

I wouldn't have thought that it would be less sensational just because a whitey was behind the atrocity. What would the reasoning behind such skewed press coverage be?

[short-circuit]

"SST types" are the ones getting off their arses whilst grieving the deaths of loved ones and gettin things changed for "you and yours"..because we have not been protected from those who cannot and will be reposnsible for themselves..
Get educated, sensible sentencing is very misjudged, they are families affected by violent murders and road crime, who dont want balls chopped, they are not capital punishment advocators in secret, they dont have fires and pitch forks..
They want fair and sensible sentences, only they know what it feels like to have a loved one murdered, and then feel let down by the "Justice" system..
If you dont like what ya read, go back to what you prefer! Keep your uneducated thoughts to yourself


Emotive and hysterical responses are understandable (and valid) but will not lead to constructive solutions. Lets not pretend that calls for even more punitive measures are a solution - they are purely about revenge. Forums such as this one do nothing to "educate" - among the few genuine expressions of sadness, compassion and anger I see mainly hatred, bile, racism, stereotyping and straight out misinformation.


Please don't try to imply that the SST are trying to do something for "me and mine"...they are not, and if they are they are very misguided in terms of both their method and their objective. Like all groups and individuals their agendas are varied.

[short-circuit]

The reason you dont see white folks shame widely reported is they either have good lawyers, or it is not "sensational" enough to be reported in the press.

Thank you.

Guess what? These crimes in Scotland (for example) in the middle of last century were all committed by people who had names like "Logan", "Anderson" and "Douglas".

Populations of prison inmates all over the world are characterised by people on the wrong side of social indicators. Funny how in colonial countries they tend to be aboriginal or non european and all prison populations tend to be full of poor and working class people

How about looking at relationships between ethnicity and other socio-economic indicators: education, poverty, substance dependency and so on. Oh no, actually, don't do that cause then we might have to ask ourselves some more challenging questions as a society.

[yungatart]

It is too sad! Made even worse by the fact that it is only the tip of the iceberg..there are many more kids out there who experience abuse on a daily basis.
There are many people out there, just like me (and posssibly some of you), who don't do anything about it.
Two of my sets of neighbours have young children. One lot Mum screams at them from about 6.45 am till 7.30 pm, almost every day. I have never heard her say anything positive to her kids in the two years they have lived over the back fence.
The other lot, the youngest child grizzles and cries all the time...I doubt it knows how to laugh, I have certainly never heard it do so. Half an hour or so after Dad gets home the swearing starts all directed at the grizzly kid, of course.
Is it abuse? Not violence, but yes it is abuse.
Have I ever stepped in? Short answer..no! Why not? I don"t know really...part of my upbringing is to not be nosey...like many other neighbours up and down the country, I guess. We don't want to be involved...

[LilSel]

I find it so hard to comprehend how people can do shit like that!
Really... how could you?! :no: The justice system is a joke!! They lock people away longer for less heinous crimes than they do for child killers... wtf?!!

[slopster]

Should deal to them the old way. tie them to the corpse and bury them alive

[Motu]

Two of my sets of neighbours have young children. One lot Mum screams at them from about 6.45 am till 7.30 pm, almost every day. I have never heard her say anything positive to her kids in the two years they have lived over the back fence.
The other lot, the youngest child grizzles and cries all the time...I doubt it knows how to laugh, I have certainly never heard it do so. Half an hour or so after Dad gets home the swearing starts all directed at the grizzly kid, of course.
Is it abuse? Not violence, but yes it is abuse.


I have this,but ten times worse next door.The young couple next door have 4 kids under school age,and they fight with verbal violence that is terrifying to hear.We fear he is going to beat her to a pulp,and there is a lot of noise as he throws things around,sometimes punching the corrugated iron fence....they can be out there at 2.00am on the front lawn yelling at each other.But physically they never do more than push the odd shoulder....there are never any beer bottles outside on monday morning,and I doubt there are drugs involved - if either took alcohol or drugs one would be dead for sure.I think they fight outside,next to our place,because they don't want to do it in front of the kids.

But I think this kind of verbal abuse is just as bad or worse than physical abuse - these kids are growing up in a terrifying household,and no way are they not going to be affected in a negative way. Do we call the Cops? Yes,many times - sometimes my wife rings Housing NZ,puts the phone out the window and says ''they are at it again''.Housing NZ then calls the Cops.We don't really know what to do - neither the parents or the children are being physically abused,but the verbal abuse is off the radar.We don't want to meddle in their lives,and our dobbing in shows our concern for their welfare.

Although we aren't great mates,I talk to him sometimes,give him a hand,get the younger brothers bike going etc.We aren't enemies,no bad feelings over the fence - but what a way to live a life,and to raise children in that enviroment....

[98tls]

I have this,but ten times worse next door.The young couple next door have 4 kids under school age,and they fight with verbal violence that is terrifying to hear.We fear he is going to beat her to a pulp,and there is a lot of noise as he throws things around,sometimes punching the corrugated iron fence....they can be out there at 2.00am on the front lawn yelling at each other.But physically they never do more than push the odd shoulder....there are never any beer bottles outside on monday morning,and I doubt there are drugs involved - if either took alcohol or drugs one would be dead for sure.I think they fight outside,next to our place,because they don't want to do it in front of the kids.

But I think this kind of verbal abuse is just as bad or worse than physical abuse - these kids are growing up in a terrifying household,and no way are they not going to be affected in a negative way. Do we call the Cops? Yes,many times - sometimes my wife rings Housing NZ,puts the phone out the window and says ''they are at it again''.Housing NZ then calls the Cops.We don't really know what to do - neither the parents or the children are being physically abused,but the verbal abuse is off the radar.We don't want to meddle in their lives,and our dobbing in shows our concern for their welfare.

Although we aren't great mates,I talk to him sometimes,give him a hand,get the younger brothers bike going etc.We aren't enemies,no bad feelings over the fence - but what a way to live a life,and to raise children in that enviroment.... Thats well sad mate,well sad indeed.what i dont get is why not do something about it,as in hands on,yea yea i can imagine the tree hugging element here crying foul but doing nothing results in only one thing,you mentioned it but to put it bluntly those kids next door will grow up fucked up and at a guess doing far worse than mum/dad are doing,a simple conversation to start and if need be a firmer hand if nothing changes may well save both them and there kids some grief down the track a bit.To say its not your business is a cop out,its everyones business if they choose to make it so.

[Ixion]

Least we spend over much time contemplating our collective navel and think this is a problem particular to us - whilst spot scanning KB I am also (inter alia) reading the blog of a UK police inspector. By coincidence, he says


..
‘Customers’ in the mad, quasi-business run, amateur sociologist’s world of Ruralshire Constabulry are defined as ‘Hard To Reach’ or ‘Seldom Heard’ groups. Basically, it’s Wayne and Kylie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Shannon_Matthews)with their pathetic and expensive obsession of gaining the sympathy and attention from the State, which they never received from their transient parents.
Wayne and Kylie will spend their entire adult (loose description) lives doing three things: having children they cannot ever support financially or emotionally, fighting each other and anyone else who might ever say ‘no’ or refuse to pander to them and finally, drawing every kind of State Benefit while the truly needy are ignored.
..

Wayne and Kylie, or Jake and Witika , the problem is as widespread as mankind.

[Ixion]

And, th next day


Jason Owen, 36, from Bromley and two others who cannot be named, no doubt because of their mental ages, killed 17 month old “Baby P” (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7706598.stm). One of those individuals was the victim’s mother.
..
At F Division, we have something like two dozen accredited Detectives working in the Child Protection Unit. They do not investigate Crime Reports and they don’t deal with prisoners. What do they do? Well, they have babies themselves. Lots of babies. And back problems. And they are the wives or girl friends of senior officers. Or both.
They also spend their entire working life carrying out “Risk Assessments” and attending “Multi Agency Meetings” with cruel, stupid, violent or addicted parents. Sometimes, they even take neglected or injured kids away from these parents for a short time using police powers. Or rather, they don’t take the kids away, they get people like me to do it for them.
..
What they cannot do is bring up all the neglected or beaten children on F Division’s estates from the moment they are born. To do that, we would need huge baby boarding houses.
What might be an idea is to cease the practice of having pregnancy as the gateway to jumping the housing queue.

Plus la change, plus la meme chose.

[Motu]

.what i dont get is why not do something about it,.

I thought my whole post was all about that we are not turning a blind eye????...???? Pop around yourself and sort them out if you think I'm doing a bad job.

As Ixion just pointed out,this problem is through all levels of man kind world wide.

[candor]

Emotive and hysterical responses are understandable (and valid) but will not lead to constructive solutions. Lets not pretend that calls for even more punitive measures are a solution - they are purely about revenge.

Please don't try to imply that the SST are trying to do something for "me and mine"...they are not, and if they are they are very misguided in terms of both their method and their objective. Like all groups and individuals their agendas are varied.

Look here God (omnipresent per your signature), you seem to be speaking on a subject you little know.
There is nothing punitive or vengeful about SST or its members. Despite odd soundbytes tailored to grab ears their written charter, strategy and gentle policies are democratically arrived at not varied and malignant and includes
- increasing drug and alcohol treatment
- increasing victim rights to proper care, recompense and onsideration
- early intervention and not releasing before time people who are dead certs on proper assessments and past behaviour (the strongest evidence of reoffence potential) to maim and murder
- there is nothing vengeful in quarantining a disease, it is a practical solution to the scores of murders committed by previous murderers in NZ. Common sense. At one SST meeting I attended of 40 homicide victims by a show of hands half were kiled by bailed or paroled freakshows. On seeing this a very liberal Judge was phased.

You will also find many SST members are involve in social work tyoe jobs working with at risk kids and families. And as a group it has achieved much good concrete progress for society eg I think it was them that got victims speaking rights in court, but may be wrong. Anyway the achievements are such that the founder has been declared one of NZs most influential. Donate, don't stagnate in your own university trained PCness, maybe ask a speaker to come share the SST story in your neck of the woods.

Winstone.
Good post, but dontcha wonder if what the psychologists sad about it being better to stay with damaged parents just might have been proved wrong overall. The underclass has frown - bringing along with it much more gross end results. Yes CYPs sometimes succeed, too often don't.

As someone else said - why the hell are so many people observing this and not acting. Fear - and you hope it'll all turn out Ok, and buck passing. See what happened with Mereana - a teacher reported. But school bus driver saw it and many others must have. CYPs drops balls, sometimes they fly too fast.

Maybe the solution is one (dodgy legally) I've seen enacted, if you see some wicked child treatment - pick that child up with permission or without it whenever you can, and transport that child directly to Police or CYPs or a safe relative or your place. But they can't always be counted on...

I did know someone who grabbed a baby off a mentally ill Mum they vaguely knew in CHCH square and took it home for several months, after giving the Mum a contact ph number. Ended up babysitting on regular occasions when mental health deteriorated. Good community level action suich as likely happened much in past.

[98tls]

I thought my whole post was all about that we are not turning a blind eye????...???? Pop around yourself and sort them out if you think I'm doing a bad job.

As Ixion just pointed out,this problem is through all levels of man kind world wide. If they lived next door to me i would have no doubt but that aside i chuckle at the many "cops do nothing","cops,i cant get one when i need one" posts on here and in general conversation day to day.If your contribution to not turning a blind eye is ringing the cops,again,then you might as well turn a blind eye,domestic violence is as it sounds,domestic.If you dislike the sound of domestic violence in any shape/form and its going on in your own space then sort it,simple really,my post isnt really directed at you Motu in fact ive the upmost respect for you as per your mechanical abilities and bike experiance etc i just have as many here do a revulsion when it comes to the shit that kids have to put up with via there fuckhead parents and believe that its as much up to us as a community (wherever we live) to do something about.

[Ixion]

..its as much up to us as a community (wherever we live) to do something about.


No. No, you really don't want me to do 'something about it'. Though my 'doing something about it' would solve the problem , at least for a few generations.

[98tls]

No. No, you really don't want me to do 'something about it'. Though my 'doing something about it' would solve the problem , at least for a few generations. Actually i do though not to that extent,if the guy next door,down the road,whatever banged on the door when he sees this shit and explains to those responsible that its not acceptable then something may well change,besides that it frees up cops time to sort out other shit.Then again this is NZ and we seem hell bent on following the rest of the world so no doubt that's the way it will unfold,sadly.All i can do is post up my opinion and in the meantime will go back to looking after my own back yard and surroundings.Jesus i almost took a swipe the other day for suggesting someone pick up there own rubbish.

[Ixion]

Alas, I fear you place too much confidence in the goodness of humanity. All that 'banging on the door and explaining etc' will achieve is that the door banger will get (at best) his head smashed in.

If you (collective and hypothetical you) want this problem solved, then you must accept that the solution will involve the elimination (as painlessly as possible) of a large number of 'people' (loosely so styled). And, unfortunately, their children also if over about seven years.

Those who commit these crimes are not capable of redemption or 'reeducation' or other such wooly-pully notions. The only solution is to remove them. Permanently. And the children , if over about seven years , will also be too much scarred, leaving them would simply perpetuate the problem into another generation.Regrettable, but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

So I very much doubt that you, or most others, would have the stomach for my "doing something about it".

[MadDuck]

Is it abuse? Not violence, but yes it is abuse.
Have I ever stepped in? Short answer..no! Why not? I don"t know really...part of my upbringing is to not be nosey...like many other neighbours up and down the country, I guess. We don't want to be involved...

Given what I have been seeing next door and reporting it to the police...I am kind of at the point of "why bother" as the authorites wont or are powerless to do anything until its too late. Shame really.

[98tls]

Alas, I fear you place too much confidence in the goodness of humanity. All that 'banging on the door and explaining etc' will achieve is that the door banger will get (at best) his head smashed in.

If you (collective and hypothetical you) want this problem solved, then you must accept that the solution will involve the elimination (as painlessly as possible) of a large number of 'people' (loosely so styled). And, unfortunately, their children also if over about seven years.

Those who commit these crimes are not capable of redemption or 'reeducation' or other such wooly-pully notions. The only solution is to remove them. Permanently. And the children , if over about seven years , will also be too much scarred, leaving them would simply perpetuate the problem into another generation.Regrettable, but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

So I very much doubt that you, or most others, would have the stomach for my "doing something about it". No shit,aside from whatever else you doubt about me add realist to the list,computer ranting over getting rid of is pointless,its sadly not going to happen in our lifetime.To hear/see it and do nothing for my money is fueling the fire,if thats the way it is and your to apathetic,gutlass whatever to do something youself then go find a few others with the same feelings and go there together.Doing nothing is a huge part of why it happens.

[short-circuit]

"Bob" (or whoever you are) you ploker. If you really think you're correct in saying that "I really don't have a fuckin clue about SST" then why don't you "educate" me and the rest of us ignoramuses.

Instead you (of course) respond by trying to sanction me with a little red dot and a derogatory comment. You (at least) prove my assertion right with your (instinctive) hostile and punitive response. Did I get under under your skin Bob?

Is that how you teach your children too? Is that what you do with your wife when she disagrees with you? Are you only different by degrees to the people you are indignant and outraged toward?

Funny how many (not all) SSTers are people opposed to the repeal of section 59 of the crimes act. As I have already stated answers to protecting children (people) from violence lie way beyond being equally violent toward perpetrators. It doesn't even make you feel any better in the long run does it Bob?

[candor]

Just so people know, I'm not Bob. But the uncensored reply to Bob cracks me up, on so many levels. Thankyou.

[Genestho]

"Bob" (or whoever you are) you ploker. If you really think you're correct in saying that "I really don't have a fuckin clue about SST" then why don't you "educate" me and the rest of us ignoramuses.

Instead you (of course) respond by trying to sanction me with a little red dot and a derogatory comment. You (at least) prove my assertion right with your (instinctive) hostile and punitive response. Did I get under under your skin Bob?

Is that how you teach your children too? Is that what you do with your wife when she disagrees with you? Are you only different by degrees to the people you are indignant and outraged toward?

Funny how many (not all) SSTers are people opposed to the repeal of section 59 of the crimes act. As I have already stated answers to protecting children (people) from violence lie way beyond being equally violent toward perpetrators. It doesn't even make you feel any better in the long run does it Bob?

Im involved with SST because of the death of my husband, being a 4x convicted recidivist drink driver...and if I dont know how many people in SST oppose the ammendment to section 59, then I sure as hell dont understand how you think you know, thus spreading your incorrect propoganda.

I personally dont know much about SST's involvment in the opposition to the ammendment to section 59, but maybe? the point is that it doesn't focus on dealing with the murderers or abusers like the cases that headed this thread up.

Childless MP's telling ordinary people how to deal with a "two year old throwing a tanty" seems invasive to ordinary NZ'ers that maybe feel like they've been doing an ok job of bringing their children up.

The otherside to that is there is a US study dated 2006 that shows in the long term this bill could prevent big numbers in the future for our prisons.

That if your poor and often hit as a child your more likely to endup in prison.


What section 59 will do is prevent the assaulting parents who get caught from getting off by claiming that they were simply using “reasonable force”

I think the only way you sir (or anybody else misguided by people not in the know), would understand SST clearly and know the work they do, is to have the ability to attend a conference, and see it for yourself.
It comes at a price though - you have to have a loved one killed.

They could choose to do nothing but instead they choose to do something and its not for themselves, they have acheived alot of good and practical things for this country and will continue to do so.

[Forest]

And, th next day

Plus la change, plus la meme chose.

Given that you've corrected my grammar in previous posts, I shall return the favour. :yes:

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose!

[Ixion]

Ah, that's Frog y'see, I don't do proper Frog. Cos it's not really a proper language , like da england.

[SARGE]

Just so you know - I can't give you bling - I ran out. And dammit - you already have my respect. What now?

MDU

lapdance???

[alanzs]

And, unfortunately, their children also if over about seven years.

The only solution is to remove them. Permanently. And the children , if over about seven years , will also be too much scarred, leaving them would simply perpetuate the problem into another generation.Regrettable, but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.


Seven seems too old...

[Headbanger]

For centuries society accepted taking children away from bad/incompetant/sick parents. Look at the Stolen Generation debate, and the children shipped from England to Australia etc.



Just on this one point, I heard on the radio a few days back that more aboriginal children are removed from their homes each week now then back in the days of the "stolen generation"

[Headbanger]

One hell-of-a-tough thread.

I'm a big ugly guy, expected to be the rock when shit gets rough, But just reading about child abuse puts my head into spaces I can't bear to be in.

All those who have given something of themselves in order to help those children have my greatest respect.

[Number One]

One hell-of-a-tough thread.

I'm a big ugly guy, expected to be the rock when shit gets rough, But just reading about child abuse puts my head into spaces I can't bear to be in.

All those who have given something of themselves in order to help those children have my greatest respect.
+100

I can't even read this thread - I have read a lot of these tales of woe (including coroners reports on a few) and I only know that if something went down in front of me I would hard pressed not to react in some way.

I did tell a woman in pak n save once that I thought the way she had yanked and yelled at her child was a bit over the top. I got the very expected reply of 'mind your own fucking business bitch' :rolleyes: Poor kid :weep: It really was over the top and from observing them all the way around the supermarket the kid was actually really well behaved and didn't do anything to provoke the reaction it kept getting. I had to turn and go the other way after a while as I found my blood boiling just watching this ignorant hick being such a vile biarch to her baby. I just don't get it at all.

[Skyryder]

+100

I can't even read this thread - I have read a lot of these tales of woe (including coroners reports on a few) and I only know that if something went down in front of me I would hard pressed not to react in some way.

I did tell a woman in pak n save once that I thought the way she had yanked and yelled at her child was a bit over the top. I got the very expected reply of 'mind your own fucking business bitch' :rolleyes: Poor kid :weep: It really was over the top and from observing them all the way around the supermarket the kid was actually really well behaved and didn't do anything to provoke the reaction it kept getting. I had to turn and go the other way after a while as I found my blood boiling just watching this ignorant hick being such a vile biarch to her baby. I just don't get it at all.

Yep seen much the same when driving buses. I had a go at one silly mother who allowed her child to come running up to the bus as I was pulling into to the kerb. The kid only had to trip to go under the wheels. When I tried to explain this I just got so much abuse for pulling in to fast. Shit any slower and I'dve been going backwards.

One thing I've noticed when people say that it is societies fault and we should 'all' get involved is that I don't see much involvement from the 'better off' classes in our society and it's the judges, social workers etc that criticise the rest of us. Most of us do what we can but we can not be everywhere.

Skyryder

[Headbanger]

i have an aunty in Australia who has fostered children for 30 years, she "specialises" in the worst case children, sexually abused,drug addicted, and violence. She is frequently used as emergency accommodation for kids that are seized during police operations.

I couldn't put into words what I have seen there, These kids, so damaged, scarred, destroyed, brain damaged,some of them just don't even have a human aura around them if that makes any sense. and I only ever visited the place a half a dozen times.

A number of the kids have been returned to their parents and killed, many more are repeatedly returned and then siezed again, more damaged each and every time.

How do you relate to a heroin addicted 4 year old who has been beaten and raped his entire life?, Its enough to rip you apart,Then you see them at 16 trying to loive within our society, fuck n hell, There are no words.


I'd kill the fucks who mistreat children.

[Number One]

I'd kill the fucks who mistreat children.
YUP - kill them alright. NO MERCY. I have a few special tortures dreamed up for these kind of people.

Scares me shitless though - if anyone ever out a hand in the wrong place on my boy I know I would need some staunch friends around me to stop me from exacting some 'Creative and Merciless justice' Number One styles. Course I wouldn't be any good to my boy in jail but I really can't see how I could control that kind of RAGE.

[devnull]

Why is it that in damn near every thread about child abuse some dickhead brings up Bradford's S.59 reform bill?

It was never about child abuse. The control of a population via their kids is not a new or novel concept. And it's part of Bradford's political bias. I wouldn't be holding her up as a model parent - her record speaks for itself.

Anyone that can't differentiate between responsible discipline as part of parenting, and child abuse, needs to be forcibly sterilised.

Kids are killed in their homes, and also abused and killed in govt agency "care"

The NZ system is so fucked up it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up...

If you see a kid being abused, first of all, understand what abuse is, then do something about it. (A smack on the bum for snatching goods in a supermarket usually isn't abuse - neither is grabbing a kid that tries to bolt across a busy road. Yet both of these examples have involved police)

I agree with headbanger - these pricks that torture and kill kids should die.

Offer harm to my kids, and I can guarantee a slow and unpleasant death.... Until such time as we get a JUSTICE system to replace the crappy LEGAL system we have, I reckon I'd have no other alternative

[candor]

Hmm, a bit of reading around this reveals that Nias dad had the mental age of 11 - though I'd say that is being generous. He was also engaged in some kind of "sibling rivalry" with his kid and jealous of any attention Mum lavished. So he would have ensured Nia was relegated to the bottom ranking in the wolf pack within which might is normal and right.

http://www.justlikehisfather.com/author.html
This lady J Leedom wrote a book on parenting kids with psychopathic genes / tendencies after accidentally breeding with a psychopath who passed himself off as a Dr (shes a psychiatrist).

The role of environment in pushing up the risk rating of psychopathy taking hold is fairly well covered in this article "neglect the child - damage the adult".
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/home-life/news/article.cfm?c_id=225&objectid=10544651&ref=rss

As an opinion piece it recommends sterilising the underclass. But shows a misunderstanding in saying you expected to see evil psychopaths in the dock at Nias trial but instead saw pitiful inadequates. Hello - one and the same. Evil doesn't come with horns - it is simply a void where "goodness, values and ability to transcend ones own basic ego and selfishness" lies.

A void created by lack of ability to attach and therefore to empathise, love or feel for others. Or at least to do so in anything but a superficial faked charming glib artificial self serving way. Creating a mimicry or a hologram of being what most of us regard as human.

Psychopaths are cold blooded and like reptiles work on 2 emotions (fear / anger sourced in greed to have / be / seem more) and 2 principles - gain pleasure / reduce pain or any negative thing for themselves. A bad emotion transferred is a problem no more. Make me feel bad baby (or insert wife/ dog), I'll reflexively transfer that emotion into you.

That includes stomping out crying babies with demands or random strangers walking by looking content (should that image make them feel "less than" or in any way discomforted). One very good way to put psychopathy in a nutshell is a definition offered up by a naval gazing psychopath who has cut an expert niche out for himself by writing books on the matter.

Sam Vaknins work sums the matter up as people with inflated egos who suffer "envy aggression" if they feel others are getting more goodies in life.

Strictly speaking though the sterilising being recommended by the Herald journo is overkill, as most underclass members aren't psychopaths likely to kill offspring just as well as random strangers. Only about 1-4% of populations in developed countries are thought to be psychopaths. Its surprisingly common and underrecognised especially so in upper social classes eg with wife and kid killer Mark Lundy no one started ranting about brown people, or that dratted middle class.

Most raised in abyssmal circumstances don't become abusers and killers - as they may not have the genes that contribute to develpment of the nasty personality type, and as even one positive influence can make a large difference (so research says). And some raised in OK ways still have the gene out.

But we know how to identify those on track to infamy and a set misanthropic character at a young age. Many are the signs among little boys - who are more prone to develop with no attachment ability (to those beyond their skin) if raised midst violence or emotional neglect. It can be reversed if there is intensive intervention particularly by 7. Even hope is there up to 12, but only if the child is removed and placed in intensive programs like that run at McKenzie residential school in Christchurch.

What is more dificult is identifying and setting on track the women who will become their victims.... and (when kids are involved) their dominated / enlisted help.

A program is run overseas called "success by seven" which aims to co-ordinate charities, govt and community help to all zoom in on aiding specific kids and families at risk (read psychopath parents), with the goal of at risk kids not being diagnosable as pre psychopaths at 7. This works in the form of those with skills or goods eg psychologists or local businesses donating time, advice, babysitting, counselling re good parenting methods, xmas pressies or just whatever is needed to help lift a screwy families standards to a non sabotaging environment for child life.

Some families can be helped - though a psychopath parent will always present a danger risk, that risk can sometimes be managed so as to be minimised and not to be passed on - but only if the dodgy parents are open to admit issues and to help. It often means a seperatyion and no child contact with the bad guy for best results (as recommended by Leedom and other experts).

Some should never see kids or society again and instead be confined to living with the risks posed and accepted by their own type in jail. But some can be worked with.

I think the ones having psychopathy combined with frontal lobe head injury which has affected aggressive impulse control (likely as result of being child abused) would tend more to fit the too high risk class, especially if they've done the deed of a major or fatal injury to the vulnerable.

It seems most of these cases involve psychopathy - also known as antisocial personality type, but some don't. Some involve genuine mental disorders where people don't know the quality of what they do eg postnatal psychosis. Make no mistake - psychopaths do know what they do and are calculating, they are under no delusions the kid is the devil or anything. They just have a nasty moral and behavioural code. And conduct often supported by people of similar ilk, or under their sway.

[Ixion]

As an opinion piece it recommends sterilising the underclass. But shows a misunderstanding in saying you expected to see evil psychopaths in the dock at Nias trial but instead saw pitiful inadequates. Hello - one and the same. Evil doesn't come with horns - it is simply a void where "goodness, values and ability to transcend ones own basic ego and selfishness" lies.
...


Ah. There you have hit the nail on the head (though maybe a bit off centre).

Society is quite well attuned to dealing with evil. And wickedness. And immorality.

But, the problem is, the people this thread is about are not evil. Or wicked. or even immoral.

They do not reach those heights,in the same sense that a flea that bites a person and infects him with bubonic plague would not be deemed evil or wicked or immoral.

They are simply totally lacking in the basic human capacity to relate to other creatures. Those who abused the little girl , Nia, did not so so through wickedness. That would require that they had a capacity to relate to the child to understand the nature of the torment they were inflicting, and chose, of volition, to continue. But everything I see says to me that they did not. They simply made no connection at all. Tormenting Nia amused them . They were incapable of questioning how it affected her. Incapable of any understanding of the nature of what they did. No more than the flea biting the man understands the death sentence it is inflicting.

Quite simply, in any social, intellectual, emotional sense, these people are not human. They are incapable of humanity (in the broad sense of that term). And the only solution for society is to remove them from society. Painlessly, by preference, and without hate or rancour. Simply as one of those things we must do. When we spray pesticides to kill fleas, mosquitos and other carriers of physical disease, we do not do so because of any emotional hatred of the insects that will be killed. When a policmen shoots a rabid dog , he usually has no hatred for the beast , perhaps even sadness and regret. But, their destruction is something that is necessary for the good of our species. So it is with the underclass here discussed. If our species is to grow and flourish, we must eradicate the not-quite-human portion that drags us down to their level.

It is not their fault. They cannot help it. We should not condemn them or seek to punish them, for they know not what they do. But, without hatred , rancour or revenge, they must be eradicated.

[candor]

Tailwagging time for psychopaths is torture time - lets charge with torture next time, manslaughter is lame


. Those who abused the little girl , Nia, did not so so through wickedness. That would require that they had a capacity to relate to the child to understand the nature of the torment they were inflicting, and chose, of volition, to continue. But everything I see says to me that they did not. They simply made no connection at all. Tormenting Nia amused them . They were incapable of questioning how it affected her..

Oh but they did relate. Just not in ways we easily comprehend. 99% odds they had a capacity to personally relate to the distress they could see their actions caused her as it is likely they had at some stage when little also been dehumanised / objectified. They know how the victim feels, just don't care as the whole experience of hurting others is highly gratifying and like fine wine for any psychopath worth their salt.

Orewa Kemp defended by claiming she suffered past abuse for one.
Their eyes saw her tears, ears heard screams. Every fool knows that signifies hurt - even if they can't empathise by sensing at the time the others inner pain. Presence or lack of distress is something intellectually obvious, if you have lived among bona fide humans who you'll surely have heard discussing "feelings".

Of their volition they chose to do things with an intended outcome of torment. It was active not passive or accidental (as with the flea).
And why? Not because the mere actions of putting someone in a clothesdryer or beating them in themselves were rewarding or thought funny. If so a blow up doll would have sufficed.
I guarantee you these proudly creative actions would have been continued until torment was apparent - not stopped before it was. And they knew the risk of causing death and that there are rules saying to do so is wrong.

It was the end result torment that amused - not the instrumental actions of themselves. And the choice of a vulnerable human target was conscious.
There is motive to tormenting and inflicting pain for psychopaths. It makes them feel omnipotent, it increases perceptions among observers that you are tough raising or maintaining your rank in the pecking order, and it can also give you a great and quite addictive adrenalin rush.
It can also give people a feeling of intimacy with another soul in the sense of - now you feel the kind of pain I survived or thats key to me you'll understand me in a way no one else can. They can feel understood for fleeting moments by creating a trauma bond.

Another dynamic is "you are now my punching bag and an extension of me where my emotions of hurt from childhood can be transferred, viewed, expressed bi-proxy (men don't cry) and curiously examined, perhaps laughed at with deep scorn if the victim cries... as that is not a part of me I can get in touch with alone, having mostly dead emotions (and sure wouldn't accept).

All these explanations are ones offered by psychopaths themselves and form the theoretical basis for working on "change" for that 1 in a million who want to change. But most just love themselves the way... life.... created them

There can also be an element of parental "care" if you think that by giving someone hard treatment you are toughening them up for a cruel world. Or narcissism - kids jobs are to make their "life givers" happy, end of story.

I do go along that their basic makeup gives them little option than to be revolting and go out being general pains - but to say they are not conscious their behaviours are well out of order (shown by concealment of abuse where it profits them etc etc ) is to belittle their human cc rating of brainpower. Which is a bit more than fleas spreading plague have.

The usual plea if you corner one is - I know its wrong and that I could choose other actions but this is me and I chose to go with my authentic nature. If I can't be natural about who I am (words like dominant or naturally aggressive may be used) I'm nothing. So intrinsic is psychopathy to identity. No different to blooded dogs for whom life gets a whole new focus and passion ie killing stock.

So - what is your eradication plan, and how does it help the under 7's?

[XxKiTtiExX]

I went to school with one of the Curtis brothers.. He always had the mentality of a 5 year old.. Then again most 5 year old know right from wrong, and he obviously doesn't.. For someone at 17 years old to still not be able to count to 10, is highly questionable... I still shudder to think I walked past him on a daily basis..

Sadly far to many beautiful children are wasted on people who don't deserve to have them in the first place.. And the ones who do are the ones who struggle trying to have them..

The strange way in which this world works..

[short-circuit]

So - what is your eradication plan, and how does it help the under 7's?

Bung them in ovens no doubt - or at least get someone else to do it (cause you guys have empathy - as opposed to them who don't have the capacity to develop it?).

Cue the big man response of volunteering without hesitation...

[PrincessBandit]

i haven't read the whole thread so apologise if I'm doubling up on what has already been said previously by others.
All of us at some time I'm sure have experienced incredible frustration with our children, or other people, where if we followed our natural instincts we'd lash out (physically, verbally i.e. read emotionally abusing them). What is the French term for "crime of passion" where in the heat of the moment a person commits an horrendous crime against someone else?
The cases mentioned in the op were not one-off heat of the moment instances, they were premeditated and carried out over time. What makes me so angry is the excuses that get trotted out as to why they do it. Almost invariably "I was abused when I was younger and am a victim of my circumstances, so can't be held responsible as I'm only living out what I know". The cycle CAN be broken and people CAN take personal responsibility for changing the circle in which they live. Before I get the (electronic) bash for saying that I am aware that it's not easy, or as simple as it sounds. For all those who have taken the extremely brave step of removing themselves from a violent home (women and kids and men) you are the ones who are making the difference by showing the next generation that you don't have to accept the culture of abuse.
All the law changes in the world wont make a scrap of difference to people who are lacking in any form of compassion, empathy, self control, or kindness. People whose only life philosophy revolves entirely around themselves, i.e. their own gratification and "needs" will always feel outside or above the laws that govern the rest of us.

[PrincessBandit]

What makes me so angry is the excuses that get trotted out as to why they do it. Almost invariably "I was abused when I was younger and am a victim of my circumstances, so can't be held responsible as I'm only living out what I know".

Actually there is one thing that makes me even angrier, that this excuse is trotted out by defense lawyers. How do these people sleep at night knowing they have successfully got a defendant off, or at least a heavily reduced sentence, even knowing they're actually guilty as charged?

[Number One]

If our species is to grow and flourish, we must eradicate the not-quite-human portion that drags us down to their level.
But, without hatred , rancour or revenge, they must be eradicated.
Agree and accept your points - Eradication IS the answer.

As for the 'doing it without rancour, revenge' etc...guess I'm just not that evolved myself :shrug:

[short-circuit]

Can anyone come up with something other than selective genocide (after the event)?

Very little discussion or acknowledgement of prevalence and types of child abuse through out all societies and across time. Almost no reflection here on causal factors (and how we may contribute to these conditions). Not much about prevention.

Pointless thread from where I'm sitting

[ghost]

Can anyone come up with something other than selective genocide (after the event)?

Very little discussion or acknowledgement of prevalence and types of child abuse through out all societies and across time. Almost no reflection here on causal factors (and how we may contribute to these conditions). Not much about prevention.

Pointless thread from where I'm sitting


Selective genocide before the event.

[Ixion]

Bung them in ovens no doubt - or at least get someone else to do it (cause you guys have empathy - as opposed to them who don't have the capacity to develop it?).

Cue the big man response of volunteering without hesitation...

Gas is quick and simple. More pleasant would be if some other country could be persuaded to take them, though I fear that is unlikely.

Every member of society has an obligation (it goes along with being admitted to society) to use what capacity they have to, at the least, not be a negative factor to that society.

Some, the disabled, the young , the old may not (now) be able to make much if any contribution. They can at least not be a negative contribution. Please note carefully, I am not talking here about a monetary or economic contrbiution. Present day society is wealthy enough for that not to be a priority. I am talking about a contribution toward making that society a decent one, one where people do not live in fear. One where cases like those posited here do not hapen.

Some (a distressing large number) of our present society fail in this test. It is an objective test , simply "Is our society better off or worse off for having you in it, either because of what you are now, or what you were when younger, or what you may be when older?" If the answer is "worse off", then the people concerned , collectively and individually, must be given an opportunity (and guidance) to amend their ways.

If they will not, through perverse obstinacy, or cannot , through psychopathy or whatever, then society must remove them. Send them away (the ancient Greeks were onto this - ostracism) , or eliminate them.

Not a pleasant idea, and certainly not a pleasant task. But one that needs to be undertaken if that society is not to spiral slowly but steadily down into barbarism.

Children under seven are usually reckoned young enough to be rehabilitated. Those of advanced age may present no present risk.

Watch a cat "playing" with a mouse. Teasing it, tormenting it. For the cat is "just a bit of fun". For themouse , it is pain torment and death. The cat probably realises that the mouse is terrified and in pain (they are not stupid animals), but it does not care. It cares only for itself and its own gratification. It doesn't actually want the mouse to die (because the dead mouse is no fun). But it will shrug its feline shoulders when it does , and go look for another one.

If we care about the fate of the mouse (and here, substitute child for mouse), we must eliminate the cat. There is no other way. No amount of tree huggy compassion for the poor misunderstood cat will help the mouse. Eliminate the cat . Not because we hate the cat or want to punish it. But simply because it is the only way to save the mouse.

[imdying]

Ahhhh cats, reputedly the only other species to kill for pleasure. I believe it too, as you say, ever seen one with a mouse?

[candor]

Can anyone come up with something other than selective genocide (after the event)?


OK fine. In vitro fertilisation births only for dv8 couples intending to pick up more DPB before Xmas, and use the new genetic engineering techniques to ensure they get the best designer babies money can buy. Then prevent drug use for 9 mths so the baby is not irritable enough to drive them batty. Is this the kind of social engineering that would better match your values?

[Genestho]

Nigel Latta had an interesting theory which was mentioned in one of his books, a theory not embraced by Plunket mums!

The Psychopath Screen (Dont know the actual name sorry) to be introduced at pre-schools for children showing potential pyschopathic behaviour.
Early assesment of the behaviour and early intervention etc, could prevent or derail antisocial or psychopathic behaviour in the future.

Going on the theory that most of our high profile killers showed violent or psychopathic behavior at a very young age.

Just out of interest - I talked to my local daycare and they agreed for some of the kids that have a certain non empathetic/remorsefull and violent behavior on a regular basis(not many over a period of say 5 years in their day care) its a good theory..
Being a Mum I read the Littlies, Treasures Mags etc, and Mums comments are not for this theory, as they feel it invasive, I think it needs to be recognised that every kid can be naughty and mischevious, especially when tired..psychopathic behavior is very different.

Good book too, written by a very smart guy..Into the Darklands II

[fire eyes]

Tragedy at all levels, ending cycle of violence?

Exposure, Education & Intervention, the abuser usually creates an environment of seclusion, fear and isolation.

My father was a horrendously violent man.

One night when Mum was being smashed up in the kitchen with fists, pans, chair, Mums friend Julie happened to be there and took my father on, the comparison was very David & Goliath, Julie told him no more, Mums friend is very lucky she got out alive and even to this day I am not sure why he never attacked her, its like something clicked in his head, things drastically changed from this moment, it was slow but the exposure of the behavior had happened. Yes we had heaps of family around but they were always kept at a distance as well, also fear of retaliation from Dad ment it took an outsider to intervene.

Insight into Dads history, taken at birth from a reletive, first born son, which was the norm from where we come from, he was raised by these people until 15 when both adopted parents died, sent back to violent alcohol fuelled birth family, torn apart from seperation of the only family he had known, into an environment that used alcohol to surpress feelings, progressed into controlling family through violence, unable to find another way to cope, didnt know any other mechanisms for coping, and when they did become avilable was considerably entrenched in his behavior, yes we can choose change takes a little longer for someone who thinks its normality.

Solutions in my eyes, Exposure, Education & Intervention .. nice ideal illimenating abusers, reality is a little different, violence needs to be stopped in its tracks, exposure of the behavior starts the process.

My heart goes out to all those innocent little ones who wait for intervention and the ones who endured the hopelessness and never made it out alive :(

[devnull]

Can anyone come up with something other than selective genocide (after the event)?

Very little discussion or acknowledgement of prevalence and types of child abuse through out all societies and across time. Almost no reflection here on causal factors (and how we may contribute to these conditions). Not much about prevention.

Pointless thread from where I'm sitting

Been discussed many times before...

Try searching threads about Bradford's anti-smacking bill - the key risk indicators, as identified in multiple international studies, are listed there.

The data has been studiously ignored by the bleeding heart brigade that has run this country for the last 9 years because to address the root of the problem would be to alienate their voter base...

[Hitcher]

to address the root of the problem would be to alienate their voter base...

State-sanctioned genocide would probably alienate most "voter bases". Funny that.

[Winston001]

Can anyone come up with something other than selective genocide (after the event)?

Very little discussion or acknowledgement of prevalence and types of child abuse through out all societies and across time. Almost no reflection here on causal factors (and how we may contribute to these conditions). Not much about prevention.

Pointless thread from where I'm sitting

Not meaning to pick on you but what do you suggest? What are your ideas? How would you prevent any more Nia Glassies, Kahui twins etc?

[Number One]

Can anyone come up with something other than selective genocide (after the event)?

Very little discussion or acknowledgement of prevalence and types of child abuse through out all societies and across time. Almost no reflection here on causal factors (and how we may contribute to these conditions). Not much about prevention.

Pointless thread from where I'm sitting
You sound as if you might be full of ideas....why not share then

[MadDuck]

Not much about prevention.

At what point does society decide on prevention when it cant even decide on what to do when its happening right now?

Case in point I had reason to call the police (as I am sure you are all sick of hearing) because of what was happening next door. The kid is still there...the parents are still doped up...the cops say the kid is fine just should be asleep in bed.

At some point one just gives up. But you go on ahead tell us how to solve this issue I look forward to hear what you would do.

[Winston001]

Hmmmm.......silence from our circuit breaker......

Solutions. I'm not aware of any proven approaches overseas but NZ does have a disproportionately high rate of physical child abuse. I'd say that has something to do with our culture - or more correctly, the sub-culture some people live with.

Yes the UK, Oz, and the USA have these awful events too but statistically at lower rates than NZ. I've tried to find tables to see where Scandanavia fits because those countries often top tables for their standard of living, social welfare, and low crime rates. What are they doing differently? There must be some common ethic in those cultures which restrains or controls the sick, mentally ill, and bad parents. They can't escape having a certain proportion of them, so what is their answer?

[Winston001]

And because I don't know when to leave something alone......here is a case of alleged abuse by a real estate agent who force-fed wasabi to a child, jammed fingers in a door etc... http://www.stuff.co.nz/4786639a12855.html

The defence appears to be "reasonable discipline...." :angry2:

[Mom]

And because I don't know when to leave something alone......here is a case of alleged abuse by a real estate agent who force-fed wasabi to a child, jammed fingers in a door etc... http://www.stuff.co.nz/4786639a12855.html

The defence appears to be "reasonable discipline...." :angry2:

Yep, yep, yep. At risk of being shot down completely here, this sort of case would never have seen the light of day unless Sue Bradford had got her bill passed.

I dont agree with the all sweeping nature of it btw, in fact am opposed to it in large measures ( I was a criminal in her eyes you see, my kids got the odd wallop when deserved).

[carver]

you know what will happen to the curtis boys in the slammer...

i knew what happened to a guy in there on similar charges, even when he gets out his life will be hell, my friends fire bombed this guys car and ran him out of town, they wanted to kill him, and i mean seriously kill him.

[Hitcher]

and i mean seriously kill him.

As opposed to flippantly or frivolously killing him?

[98tls]

you know what will happen to the curtis boys in the slammer...

i knew what happened to a guy in there on similar charges, even when he gets out his life will be hell, my friends fire bombed this guys car and ran him out of town, they wanted to kill him, and i mean seriously kill him. Wrong,they will wimper until they go to the segregation unit with all the other fuck-ups and serve out there sentence.No different than the widely publicised rapists released recently.

[carver]

Wrong,they will wimper until they go to the segregation unit with all the other fuck-ups and serve out there sentence.No different than the widely publicised rapists released recently.

haha, you think the other boys will leave them alone?

[carver]

As opposed to flippantly or frivolously killing him?

thats a manslaughter charge, they could have run him over in a car accidentally

[98tls]

haha, you think the other boys will leave them alone?
Put money on the fact they will,ever seen the fuck-ups in a segregation unit.

[carver]

Put money on the fact they will,ever seen the fuck-ups in a segregation unit.

no, never, tell me more

[98tls]

no, never, tell me more The only hardship they suffer is on a Sunday morning when to go to visiting they have to walk past the mainstream units yard,in doing so they get covered in everything from shit to spit,apart from that they suffer nothing other than confinement...sadly.