Terrorist (namely muslim) cowards

[SARGE]

Not only that, we've somehow got to the point where we think war is a PG show for TV, and that anyone not playing to the rules are barbarians. But if you're desperate, angry and badly led, with small arms and Koran as weapons, how do you counter 21st Century Army? You drag them back to the 12th Century.

The fact is, the other side have had enough of our rules, are desperate, and will make their own rules to win.

not sure how the Kiwi Military trains.. but we were trained to " improvise, adapt, and overcome.. i never entered a building the same way.. we would blow a hole in the ROOF and flush top-down.. through a back wall.. 2 flash bangs through a window and snipers on the roofs.. 250 MPH pig through a door..if you become predictable you become dead..

we are fighting more of a shadow war than a traditional war, The terrorists use asymmetrical warfare tactics due to the overwhelming superiority of our military. they choose to engage in a battle to undermine the confidence of the nation by attempting to demonstrate our inability to protect our citizens in their every day lives...thems the rules.. i say we get us a copy of the playbook and start playing by THIER book..

oh wait.. the hippies would howl like banshees

[98tls]

Since you mentioned it, no I didn't forget Pearl Habour.
However, the Japs went after military targets on Dec 7th 1941.

By 1945, it was official US Air Force policy to fire bomb Japanese Cities in an attempt to force a surrender (not to mention US & RAF bombing of Dresden & Cologne). Why is this any different from a terrorist bombing a hotel?

Ps. It appears that Baghdad WAS bombed without provocation - they never did find those WMD's, did they? Fwiw,the national archives in Washington contains US government documents that chart Japanese peace overtures as early as 43,none was pursued.A cable sent on May 5th 45 by the German ambassador in Tokyo and intercepted by the US dipels any doubt the Japanese were desperate to sue for peace even if the terms were hard.The day after the bomb was dropped President Truman expressed his satisfaction with the overwhelming success of the experiment.At one stage US secretary of war Stimson expressed his fears that Japanese cities would be so bombed out that his new weapon wouldnt be able to show its strength.Lets face it by the time the bomb was dropped Japan was not Americas worry though it did serve a purpose in that they could demonstrate there new weapon to there real enemy.

[SARGE]

Hiroshima?
Nagasaki?
Well, they must have held perceived strategical importance since they made the Japanese surrender.



from Wikipedia

Hiroshima was described as "an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focusing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target."


The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

cities with heavy military presence.... yea.. civilians died.. sorry..war is hell

[Swoop]

250 MPH pig through a door..if you become predictable you become dead..
I would have loved to have seen the look on Achmed's face that day...
"Hey Yusef, look! A flying pig!"
"Have you been sniffing the camel dung again Achmed?"

In other terrorist news today: Strathclyde Police have named one of the Glasgow Airport terror suspects as: "Sinje Majeep" who was apparently celebrating the lesser known Muslim festival of Ramavan.

[SARGE]

I would have loved to have seen the look on Achmed's face that day...
"Hey Yusef, look! A flying pig!"
"Have you been sniffing the camel dung again Achmed?"

3 problems.. one solution!!!


1) how do we open that door?

2) how do we demoralize the enemy?

3) whats for dinner?

[Swoop]

In other terrorist news today: Strathclyde Police have named one of the Glasgow Airport terror suspects as: "Sinje Majeep" who was apparently celebrating the lesser known Muslim festival of Ramavan.

[NOMIS]

[quote=Oscar;1831874]

I have a problem with this statement.

There has not been one piece of documentary or physical evidence from the supposed time of this person that supports the fact that he\she existed

Everything we hold to be evidence of this persons existance comes from a time afterwards.

The Jewish faith was a great keeper of records as was the Roman Empire and still they have no documents that actrually refer to this person that date to the supposed time of his living.

do you beileve people like pompei , nero existed ?? only based they existed on 1000's of people who wronte of these people in history J/C was the same, but documented , dated notes on all these people exist . what more do you need ?? Physical ecidence after thousands of years do you want to see some bones?? He was raised from the dead making it impossible any ways not a thread where im going to start preaching,

It is history and for most people the fact Jesus was here on earth is undeniable. but anyway... Im sure someone can disect and turn what I say into what suits them.

[SARGE]

[QUOTE=Mr Merde;1833875]

do you beileve people like pompei , nero existed ?? only based they existed on 1000's of people who wronte of these people in history J/C was the same, but documented , dated notes on all these people exist . what more do you need ?? Physical ecidence after thousands of years do you want to see some bones?? He was raised from the dead making it impossible any ways not a thread where im going to start preaching,

It is history and for most people the fact Jesus was here on earth is undeniable. but anyway... Im sure someone can disect and turn what I say into what suits them.

oh this is wrong on so many levels.. .. they actually FOUND Pompeii ..(and Herculaneum).. they have physical PROOF they existed..


wow..

i believe in Dinosaurs too..

[MisterD]

It is history and for most people the fact Jesus was here on earth is undeniable. but anyway... Im sure someone can disect and turn what I say into what suits them.

There were lots of cult leaders around at the time (something else Life of Brian get right) who can explain why all these stories have accreted around one particular name? JC is just a religious version of Robin Hood.

[NOMIS]

There were lots of cult leaders around at the time (something else Life of Brian get right) who can explain why all these stories have accreted around one particular name? JC is just a religious version of Robin Hood.

I cant change your view on him, I know who he is to me . but was fact he existed yeh??

[Winston001]

I've never seen any serious argument that Jesus Christ the man, never existed. He is respected by Moslems and Jews as a wise man, a prophet. The schism comes because Christianity believes he was the Son of God (ie.God) and that he rose from the dead. The two other monotheistic religions don't accept that.

However let's not be sidetracked.

[Winston001]

......... 250 MPH pig through a door..if you become predictable you become dead....

Tell me more about this military pig........:whistle:


we are fighting more of a shadow war than a traditional war, The terrorists use asymmetrical warfare tactics due to the overwhelming superiority of our military. they choose to engage in a battle to undermine the confidence of the nation by attempting to demonstrate our inability to protect our citizens in their every day lives...


Excellent explanation. The accepted way to fight it is "hearts and minds" but that requires the corrupt leaders and officials of third world nations to act democratically, allow freedoms we take for granted, and distribute wealth. Turkey is the only country I can think of where this has worked and that was because of the leadership of Kemal Ataturk in the 1920s.

[Mikkel]

Tell me more about this military pig........:whistle:

Just the MPs I suppose... :dodge:

[Winston001]

Back on-topic, it appears there may have been 15 terrorists involved in Mumbai because there were items for 15 men on the fishing boat they used (and murdered the fishermen - bastards). So......that means either some got away or are biding their time for further attacks.

[portokiwi]

:corn::jerry:mmmmm interesting:buggerd:

[Oscar]

Back on-topic, it appears there may have been 15 terrorists involved in Mumbai because there were items for 15 men on the fishing boat they used (and murdered the fishermen - bastards). So......that means either some got away or are biding their time for further attacks.

And the Indian Govt is trying deflect attention from its own incompetence (apparently they had a warning from the US that something was going to happen) by trying to implicate the Pakistani Govt.

This has negative ramifications if the Pakistanis withdraw Troops from the Afghan border (where they're operating against Taliban) to the Indian Border (as will inevitably happen if the Indians keep talking tough).

[Hemex]

And the Indian Govt is trying deflect attention from its own incompetence (apparently they had a warning from the US that something was going to happen) by trying to implicate the Pakistani Govt.

This has negative ramifications if the Pakistanis withdraw Troops from the Afghan border (where they're operating against Taliban) to the Indian Border (as will inevitably happen if the Indians keep talking tough).

I agree with the first part... that the Indian govt may have taken the warnings signs issued a little too lightly...
But from what evidence has been brought forth...Pakistan harbors most of the terrorists.. its not a Muslim thing... but fanatics...and India is putting pressure on them to sort their shit out...damn straight their going to talk tough..

Moving troops? WTF are you saying dude? There is cross fire across the Indian and Pakistani borders every fuckin night...Its not brought out in the media... which I beleive is the source of your knowledge...
Pakistans troops are concentrated on the Indian border and of course some to fight the Taliban..the US supports Pakistan on the Taliban side...

What needs to happen is Pakistan sorting out their own internal mess...

[mstriumph]

yea.. 72 virgins.. they dont mention they are all Thai She-Boys

bullshit
bullshit
bullshit

i volunteered..knew what i was getting into from the One.. the other blah blah million American forces did also.. enlistments are still at or above pre-war levels

nope.. because they are young, strong and easier to train.. not as many bad or lazy habits of us over 25's

as long as the enemy has 'unacceptable losses"

ah Sarge :no: - i wish it were just bullshit - but all your post underlines for me is that the manipulation/indoctrination can be successful even when used on people whose integrity, like yours, i admire.

by the by, i volunteered too - how do you think that makes ME feel?

[mstriumph]

........What needs to happen is Pakistan sorting out their own internal mess... what it NEEDED was for the brits not to have gone drawing arbitary lines on other people's maps in the first place.....

*don't mind me - i'm having a bad day .......*

[Hemex]

what it NEEDED was for the brits not to have gone drawing arbitary lines on other people's maps in the first place.....

*don't mind me - i'm having a bad day .......*

I Agree a 100%!
The brits beleived in Divide and Rule...

Brits - we conquer India in the Name of the Queen"

Indians - no you can't...we live here... 500 million of us...

Brits - Ahh but you dont have a FLAG... No Flag..No Country..accoridng to the rules..that we just made up:lol:... gotta love Eddie Izzard

[mstriumph]

you shouldn't agree with me .......... it just encourages me :( and people here will start throwing things at you :(

[Hemex]

you shouldn't agree with me .......... it just encourages me :( and people here will start throwing things at you :(

Ill stand by what I believe in :2guns::Punk:
Each to his own...

On saying that... Opinions and beleifs are like ar$#holes...everybody has one..:lol:

[mstriumph]

.........................but i dont believe that any civilized nation target civilians..

and yet the brits did deliberately target Dresden ......

[Oscar]

I agree with the first part... that the Indian govt may have taken the warnings signs issued a little too lightly...
But from what evidence has been brought forth...Pakistan harbors most of the terrorists.. its not a Muslim thing... but fanatics...and India is putting pressure on them to sort their shit out...damn straight their going to talk tough..

Moving troops? WTF are you saying dude? There is cross fire across the Indian and Pakistani borders every fuckin night...Its not brought out in the media... which I beleive is the source of your knowledge...
Pakistans troops are concentrated on the Indian border and of course some to fight the Taliban..the US supports Pakistan on the Taliban side...

What needs to happen is Pakistan sorting out their own internal mess...
I am quite aware of the tensions over Kashmir.

However at the moment we're looking at Diplomatic games.
The Indian Govt is blaming the Paki Govt to deflect internal criticism.

If the Pakistanis threaten to move troops from their Tribal Areas in the West to reinforce their eastern border (which they have done already), it will bring the US into play.

They want the US to lean on India and calm them down.

The fact that Pakistan harbours Muslim militants is accepted, just as the fact that India destabilizes Pakistani Kashmir.


India, Pakistan tread lightly after Mumbai attack

By RAVI NESSMAN – 6 hours ago

MUMBAI, India (AP) — Demands for action are being heard across India amid the anger over last week's rampage in Mumbai by militants accused of coming from Pakistan, but leaders of the two nuclear-armed neighbors are striving to keep tensions in check.

Neither country has the appetite for a fourth war in six decades, and both sides seem to be hoping that U.S. diplomacy — expected to intensify with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's arrival in India on Wednesday — will defuse the situation, analysts said.

"Nobody is talking about military action," Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee said Tuesday, according to the Press Trust of India news agency.

Indian officials blamed the banned Pakistani extremist group Lashkar-e-Taiba for the attack, which killed 172 people and paralyzed India's financial capital for three days.

The government called on Pakistani authorities to take strong action against those responsible and to hand over suspected terrorists believed living in Pakistan. But India stopped short of accusing Pakistan's government of any involvement, a charge it has not hesitated to make in the past.

And from The Times of India today:


New Delhi itself faces the task of overcoming U.S cynicism and manipulation that has accompanied previous American shuttle diplomacy in the region aimed merely at protecting its war on terror on the Afghan front which would be harder to prosecute without Pakistani help.

[Hitcher]

and yet the brits did deliberately target Dresden ......

And the Germans did deliberately target the east end of London.

[Magua]

And the Germans did deliberately target the east end of London.

And an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

[Hitcher]

And an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

Two wrongs don't make a right. But three do.

[Scouse]

Maybe the French Resistance didn't target civilians, but the RAF did, and the USAAF, and not by accident either.

What gives us the moral right to condemn terrorists when we did not hesitate to fire bomb German and Japanese cities? How many civilians died as a result of the bombing of Baghdad by Coalition Forces?I think you will find that that was a case of tit for tat, Luckily for Kiwis they did not experience the Luftwaffe's bombing of major cities like London, Manchester, Liverpool. That's what gave the RAF and the USAF the moral right to reply in kind, try telling me that the Luftwaffe were not targeting innocent civilians and I will laugh in your face.

[mstriumph]

And the Germans did deliberately target the east end of London.

not that i'm excusing that of course but there were strategic docks there whilst there wasn't much at all of anything in dresden except people and magnificent old buildings

....and my post WAS following on from Sarge saying that no civilised country would target (primarily) civilians?


funny - i was born british and grew up there - it never occurred to me we were supposed to be civilised
.... which is prolly why the notion still seems odd to me?

[mstriumph]

I think you will find that that was a case of tit for tat, Luckily for Kiwis they did not experience the Luftwaffe's bombing of major cities like London, Manchester, Liverpool. That's what gave the RAF and the USAF the moral right to reply in kind, try telling me that the Luftwaffe were not targeting innocent civilians and I will laugh in your face. rumour has it that the first bombs were dropped on london in contravention of hitler's orders - the brits retaliated by bombing berlin and the rest, as they say, is history. :pinch:

[BIGBOSSMAN]

I've been to Dresden a few times, it's a fucking lovely city. I mentioned Arthur 'Bomber' Harris once, but I think I got away with it.

[Scouse]

what it NEEDED was for the brits not to have gone drawing arbitary lines on other people's maps in the first place.....

*don't mind me - i'm having a bad day .......*Would you have rather had the Fookin Germans drawing those arbitary lines then?

[Scouse]

and yet the brits did deliberately target Dresden ......I'll repeat myself here. Just like the Nazi's targeted Liverpool, Manchester and London to name only a few of the British cities and towns decimated by the lufftwaffe. So were is your problem?

[mstriumph]

Would you have rather had the Fookin Germans drawing those arbitary lines then?

it irks me that ANYONE drew them ...... wherever it happened, no matter by whom, the outcome has been less than ideal

i'll say 'bloody colonialists' if it makes you happier?:hug:

[mstriumph]

I'll repeat myself here. Just like the Nazi's targeted Liverpool, Manchester and London to name only a few of the British cities and towns decimated by the lufftwaffe. So were is your problem?

no problem here ..... Sarge's operative word in the post i originally replied to was 'civilized' ..... now, i'm not sure if the brits were as civilized as Sarge seems to think we were but i'm damned sure that neither of us believe the nazis were ...?

[Sniper]

Oscar, just curious....

Since when did politics and polititions dictate fighting trategies that everyone abides by? The days of standing in lines and shooting each other are long gone.

As SARGE and I and others were trained, you adapt and improvise. Never become predictable. No amount of politics are going to dictate the way you behave and act when the shit hits the fan. And thats on both sides

[98tls]

And the Germans did deliberately target the east end of London.
Matters not really but its been well documented that the first supposed bombing of civilians in London was a German crew that got lost trying to find there intended target and just let them go before turning for home.:whocares:

[Oscar]

I think you will find that that was a case of tit for tat, Luckily for Kiwis they did not experience the Luftwaffe's bombing of major cities like London, Manchester, Liverpool. That's what gave the RAF and the USAF the moral right to reply in kind, try telling me that the Luftwaffe were not targeting innocent civilians and I will laugh in your face.

This went way beyond tit for tat.
You may recall the recent fuss about putting up a statue of Bomber Harris.
Bomber Command had a policy of "Area Bombing" urban areas. The stated aim was to shorten the war by breaking civilian morale. To make it even worse cities with no strategic targets like Cologne attracted refugees.

A similar tactic was used by the US on Japan.

[Oscar]

Oscar, just curious....

Since when did politics and polititions dictate fighting trategies that everyone abides by? The days of standing in lines and shooting each other are long gone.

As SARGE and I and others were trained, you adapt and improvise. Never become predictable. No amount of politics are going to dictate the way you behave and act when the shit hits the fan. And thats on both sides

You're joking, right?

Politicians have always interfered in war, both strategically and tactically (the Geneva Convention is a classic example).

Do you think the US Military came up with the tactics used in Iraq?

Why do think the Coalition stopped short of Baghdad in Gulf War 1?

[eliot-ness]

This went way beyond tit for tat.
To make it even worse cities with no strategic targets like Cologne attracted refugees.

The bombing of Dresden was on the direct order of Churchill in retaliation for the bombing of Coventry, which was also a haven for refugees, mainly children from London.. Hitler made it plain from the start that civilians were to be a legitimate target and never varied from that decision.

[Oscar]

The bombing of Dresden was on the direct order of Churchill in retaliation for the bombing of Coventry, which was also a haven for refugees, mainly children from London.. Hitler made it plain from the start that civilians were to be a legitimate target and never varied from that decision.

So what was Dresden for?

[Sniper]

You're joking, right?

Politicians have always interfered in war, both strategically and tactically (the Geneva Convention is a classic example).

Do you think the US Military came up with the tactics used in Iraq?

Why do think the Coalition stopped short of Baghdad in Gulf War 1?

Nope, dead serious.

Ask any squad of soldiers or team of SF, and you tell me if they did the job exactly as they were told. Tactics are thought up all to often, in the end, its up to the men on the ground to do the job as they seem fit.

All well thought plans turn to shit once the bullets start flying.

[98tls]

I think you will find that that was a case of tit for tat, Luckily for Kiwis they did not experience the Luftwaffe's bombing of major cities like London, Manchester, Liverpool. That's what gave the RAF and the USAF the moral right to reply in kind, try telling me that the Luftwaffe were not targeting innocent civilians and I will laugh in your face. :beer:What a load of shite,only a pom could compare London to what happened to Germanys cities,simple really do a search and compare casualties/missons/weight dropped.

[jrandom]

Y'all should really read this article: http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20081201_strategic_motivations_mumbai_attack

Them terr-rists aren't half as dumb as some think.

I wonder if we'll see the creation of the grand pan-Middle-Eastern Islamic state they dream of in our lifetimes?

Interesting times.

[Oscar]

I think you will find that that was a case of tit for tat, Luckily for Kiwis they did not experience the Luftwaffe's bombing of major cities like London, Manchester, Liverpool. That's what gave the RAF and the USAF the moral right to reply in kind, try telling me that the Luftwaffe were not targeting innocent civilians and I will laugh in your face.

The moral right?
Even if this were true, it was not a response in kind - in Cologne an estimated 45,000 people died in one night (estimates of England's civilian casualties for the whole war range up to 70,000).

[98tls]

The bombing of Dresden was on the direct order of Churchill in retaliation for the bombing of Coventry, which was also a haven for refugees, mainly children from London.. Hitler made it plain from the start that civilians were to be a legitimate target and never varied from that decision.
Maybe the fat fuck was trying desperately to make up the numbers remembering his first attempt at leadership, only he got confused,we remember them every year come poppy day.

[Scouse]

This went way beyond tit for tat.
You may recall the recent fuss about putting up a statue of Bomber Harris.
Bomber Command had a policy of "Area Bombing" urban areas. The stated aim was to shorten the war by breaking civilian morale. To make it even worse cities with no strategic targets like Cologne attracted refugees.

A similar tactic was used by the US on Japan.Hahahahahahaha your full of shit. I grew up in Liverpool in the 60's and I still remember all the bombed out houses, there were that many that the goverment had to build prefabricated houses, in order to put a roof over the heads of famillys that came out of the bomb shelters to find that the nazi bombers had leveled whole estates of houses. Wanker get your facts right before you post crap.

[SPman]

Just the MPs I suppose... :dodge:
Hmmm - sending MP's through a door at 250 mph!
Sounds good!

Can I watch...........

[Oscar]

Hahahahahahaha your full of shit. I grew up in Liverpool in the 60's and I still remember all the bombed out houses, there were that many that the goverment had to build prefabricated houses, in order to put a roof over the heads of famillys that came out of the bomb shelters to find that the nazi bombers had leveled whole estates of houses. Wanker get your facts right before you post crap.

Go troll your stinky bait somewhere else, idiot.

[Scouse]

:beer:What a load of shite,only a pom could compare London to what happened to Germanys cities,simple really do a search and compare casualties/missons/weight dropped.What a load of shit, have you stopped to think that the reason for this might just be because of Britain's air defence, and that if it wasn't for the Spitfires and Hurricanes Adolph would have been showing different statistics.

[98tls]

Hahahahahahaha your full of shit. I grew up in Liverpool in the 60's and I still remember all the bombed out houses, there were that many that the goverment had to build prefabricated houses, in order to put a roof over the heads of famillys that came out of the bomb shelters to find that the nazi bombers had leveled whole estates of houses. Wanker get your facts right before you post crap. Posting crap:blank:no doubt your feeling a tad pissed off considering the topic but wake up,no matter what the reasons the fact is that to compare the said events borders on madness.Mind you all things considered i understand.Nothing and i mean nothing could ever been worse than whatever happened to a pom.:baby:

[98tls]

What a load of shit, have you stopped to think that the reason for this might just be because of Britain's air defence, and that if it wasn't for the Spitfires and Hurricanes Adolph would have been showing different statistics. :shit:I thought they stooped printing those Commando comics years ago,go figure.Quite collectible the old ones.

[Scouse]

:shit:I thought they stooped printing those Commando comics years ago,go figure.Quite collectible the old ones.Visit Liverpool in the 60's did we? Get to see the destruction that was still left over from a war 18 years before did we?

[Swoop]

and yet the brits did deliberately target Dresden ......
Quite so.
Dresden was a choke point for troops and munitions that were retreating from the Russian Holiday Tour.
All manner of war-fighting materials were being herded back to defend Berlin and a lot of refugees were around Dresden as well.
Couple that with only a few targets remaining for the entire RAF and USAAF bomber force...
Being a railway "hub" and also a city that had not been targeted to any degree so far in the war had made it a prime target.
Area bombing was the only "tool" in the bombers arsenal. If only laser-guided munitions were available then...

[98tls]

Visit Liverpool in the 60's did we? No actually my familys from Freiburg.If indeed you hail from said place in the 60s it seems you havent learnt much since.Not intended personally just a general observation.

[Winston001]

And the Indian Govt is trying deflect attention from its own incompetence (apparently they had a warning from the US that something was going to happen) by trying to implicate the Pakistani Govt.

Oscar, have you been to India? It is a vast country, not only in size but in population. They have an active Army and armed police force but trust me, all the warnings in the world (unless they named time and place) would be a candle in the wind. India is just so crowded and busy that it's impossible to imagine any security working.

Besides, how do you notice 10 men sailing into a busy harbour in a local fishing boat? You could do it in Wellington and murder half our MPs if Parliament was in session - and Wellington is like an empty village compared to Bombay.


This has negative ramifications if the Pakistanis withdraw Troops from the Afghan border (where they're operating against Taliban) to the Indian Border (as will inevitably happen if the Indians keep talking tough).

Easy. Pakistan can allow Coalition forces interdiction across the Afghan border while they are busy over in Kashmir. Besides the Kashmir pot is boiling every day with shots fired, soldiers killed and captured.

[wbks]

i'm damned sure that neither of us believe the nazis were ...?Huh? .........

[mstriumph]

Matters not really but its been well documented that the first supposed bombing of civilians in London was a German crew that got lost trying to find there intended target and just let them go before turning for home.:whocares:
i said that already
nobody listened then, either.

[Scouse]

No actually my familys from Freiburg.Oh Freiburg, good then because my father would have been napalming your relatives from the reletive comfort of his Churchill tank crocodile unit.

[mstriumph]

...........Nothing and i mean nothing could ever been worse than whatever happened to a pom.:baby: hey :calm: ... SOME of us are able to sustain a reasonable debate without whinging!!

[mstriumph]

Visit Liverpool in the 60's did we? Get to see the destruction that was still left over from a war 18 years before did we? actually yes .... no-one is saying it didn't HAPPEN - just that it's not particularly relevant at this stage of the current conversation?

[mstriumph]

Oh Freiburg, good then because my father would have been napalming your relatives from the reletive comfort of his Churchill tank crocodile unit.

:zzzz: if this is gonna turn into one of those "my daddy is bigger than your daddy" arguments ....


... just an observation, Scouse - there's nothing here worth taking personally or getting het up about ....... bad enough our forebears FOUGHT the war without our re-fighting it now, online?

[SixPackBack]

So no one has brought up the unholy bigness of 6 million Jews being exterminated??...........Dresden and London pale in comparison.

[Winston001]

What it NEEDED was for the brits not to have gone drawing arbitary lines on other people's maps in the first place.....



I really like your posts Mstriumph so please don't think I'm picking on you.

Lines on maps. Don't blame the British, in fact don't blame anyone. Borders have been drawn since pre-history. Originally they defined tribal areas but after the agricultural revolution 11,000 years ago, when villages, then cities arose, they were drawn by conquest - defendable areas of influence and mutual protection.

What you refer to is the post-colonial age when artificial states like Transjordan were created. You'd have to go back to the Ottoman Empire and probably to Alexander the Great to find the original nations.

What about the Basques? They don't like the Spanish lines around them. Quebec is none too keen either. Trans-Dniester doesn't like Moldova and tries to operate as a separate country. Somaliland, Nagorno-Karabakh, South Ossetia and Abkhazia are all unrecognised countries which reject the lines around them. You'll recall the recent small war over South Ossetia between Georgia (which reckons SO is within its borders) and Russia.

My purpose is simply to point out that the British and the USA are not the big baddies in the world - either now, or in the past. Mistakes are made, many borders are appallingly drawn but its the case world-wide. I left Africa alone because that would fill a page by itself. :D

[98tls]

So no one has brought up the unholy bigness of 6 million Jews being exterminated??...........Dresden and London pale in comparison. Twas actually 8 millon give or take,that to pales when you consider the 15 millon russians a few years prior.

[98tls]

Oh Freiburg, good then because my father would have been napalming your relatives from the reletive comfort of his Churchill tank crocodile unit. :yawn:.......................

[wbks]

How cool is yu then, scousy?

[enigma51]

either way one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter just ask nelson mandela

[98tls]

reletive Entschuldigen,Juden?.:bye:

[Winston001]

Entschuldigen, Juden?.:bye:

Steady on mate?? That's a bit close to the bone depending on who reads it. :eek5:

[jrandom]

Jesus H. Christ.

I call Godwin's Law as of several dozen posts ago.

[MisterD]

Jesus H. Christ.

I call Godwin's Law as of several dozen posts ago.

"nazi" is in the thread title - so how does that work..?

[jrandom]

"nazi" is in the thread title - so how does that work..?

I think you might be getting a little confused there, old bean.

[Cr1MiNaL]

I haven't read the whole thread because it doesn't make complete sense, due to all the editing by the mods. All I have to say is that we made a wrong decision in 1945 by giving Pakistan their own country. Now they want more (Kashmir), and theyre terrorising India. I have family in India and visited those hotels and Leopold since I was a little baby. I also have properties in surrounding areas in Mumbai which have been affected by the blasts. The amount of stress these fuckers have caused me sitting 50000 miles aways is fucking ludicurius. India is a nuclear power. I say nuke the fuckers and be done with it. I fucking hate Pakistan and all it stands for.

[wbks]

Entschuldigen,Juden?.:bye:What's that mean?

[jrandom]

India is a nuclear power.

You do realise that Pakistan is too, right?

[Cr1MiNaL]

You do realise that Pakistan is too, right?

bro one nuke on Karachi and one on Islamabad and there isin't shit they can do to retaliate. Strike first, we have good reason to. The UN can deal with it.

[Hitcher]

we have good reason to.
Who is this "we" of which you speak, in this and in your previous post?

[jrandom]

bro one nuke on Karachi and one on Islamabad and there isin't shit they can do to retaliate. Strike first, we have good reason to. The UN can deal with it.

You really think that nukes dropped on Karachi and Islamabad, the disintegration of Pakistan into anarchy, etc, would make further radical Islamist terrorist attacks within India less likely?

You should probably think that through further.

Edit: Fer chrissake, read the article I linked to earlier (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20081201_strategic_motivations_mumbai_attack), eh?

[terbang]

Nope, dead serious.

Ask any squad of soldiers or team of SF, and you tell me if they did the job exactly as they were told. Tactics are thought up all to often, in the end, its up to the men on the ground to do the job as they seem fit.

All well thought plans turn to shit once the bullets start flying.

Ah err so why are the soldiers there in the first place? Politics? So why are the other guys deemed the bad guys or enemy? politics?

[Cr1MiNaL]

You really think that nukes dropped on Karachi and Islamabad, the disintegration of Pakistan into anarchy, etc, would make further radical Islamist terrorist attacks within India less likely?

You should probably think that through further.

Mate, do you know where all the terrorists in the world are hiding? no not in Iraq... India would be doing the world social service.

Have you ever spoken to a Pakistani 8 year old? I have. He will innocently tell you that it is fair to take a mans life if God asks them to. It is ingrained in them from a very young age. They are taught to hate and give their lives for 'Allah'. Allah ho Akhbar - Literally means God is great. Yet, they chant it before they behead innocent people and spray machine gun fire into bystanders.

Fanatics is what they are. They need to die. Thinking is for the weak.

[terbang]

What's that mean?
Excuse. Jew.

[jrandom]

Fanatics is what they are.

Oh, OK then.


Thinking is for the weak.

Good to see the likes of you will be left to keep the world sane once we clean out these, er, fanatics, eh?

[terbang]

Mate, do you know where all the terrorists in the world are hiding? no not in Iraq... India would be doing the world social service.

Have you ever spoken to a Pakistani 8 year old? I have. He will innocently tell you that it is fair to take a mans life if God asks them to. It is ingrained in them from a very young age. They are taught to hate and give their lives for 'Allah'. Allah ho Akhbar - Literally means God is great. Yet, they chant it before they behead innocent people and spray machine gun fire into bystanders.

Fanatics is what they are. They need to die. Thinking is for the weak.

Oh groan, into the depths of stupidity we go.

[Cr1MiNaL]

Oh groan, into the depths of stupidity we go.

Yea sure, we'll see what you feel like when you loose a loved one to a bloomin Paki terrorist. Go hug him when you do, then promptly go get fucked too.

[Cr1MiNaL]

Good to see the likes of you will be left to keep the world sane once we clean out these, er, fanatics, eh?

Mate, you have no idea of how things work in India. If the government does not react, the people will rise up in arms and cause anarchy in the country itself. Negotiations are only delaying the inevitable.

Besides I don't need to read news paper articles that have been tailored for the public. I know what is really going on, and did well before it was even in the papers or on the news.

[Sniper]

Ah err so why are the soldiers there in the first place? Politics? So why are the other guys deemed the bad guys or enemy? politics?

Good point. Thats a given when troops head anywhere.

But what about tactics used during the actual fighting?

[Swoop]

India is a nuclear power. I say nuke the fuckers and be done with it. I fucking hate Pakistan and all it stands for.
Hmm. No wonder CIA expect the next nuke to be detonated, will be on the border between the two countries.

[wbks]

Excuse. Jew. Lol most germans I have met try to avoid that whole thing:rolleyes:

[terbang]

Yea sure, we'll see what you feel like when you loose a loved one to a bloomin Paki terrorist. Go hug him when you do, then promptly go get fucked too.

No but I lost one to a drunk driver! A fat mid forties business man who had the means to defend himself fairly well too. Should we kill all them too?

[puddytat]

Make love , not war......wear a condom.

Oh and smoke a really big fat:doobey::yeah::yeah::yeah::sunny:

[98tls]

Lol most germans I have met try to avoid that whole thing:rolleyes: Really,the German thing or the Jewish thing?How many have you actually met?Went back two years ago and neither subject was avoided at all.:gob:

[puddytat]

Theyre probably fuckin sick of it

[mstriumph]

Huh? ......... civilized .... sorry

[mstriumph]

No but I lost one to a drunk driver! A fat mid forties business man who had the means to defend himself fairly well too. Should we kill all them too? drunk driver? yep - why not .... is "i was drunk" an excuse for killing someone?


just asking ...:mellow:

[Oscar]

Easy. Pakistan can allow Coalition forces interdiction across the Afghan border while they are busy over in Kashmir. Besides the Kashmir pot is boiling every day with shots fired, soldiers killed and captured.

Pakistans new Govt will never let Western Troops into their country.

[terbang]

drunk driver? yep - why not .... is "i was drunk" an excuse for killing someone?


just asking ...:mellow:
I'll pass your sentiment on to the judge...

[MisterD]

I think you might be getting a little confused there, old bean.

Oops, thread confusion indeed. I withdraw and apologise.

[MisterD]

Pakistans new Govt will never let Western Troops into their country.

I guess it depends how much they want all that western aid money doesn't it?

[Oscar]

I guess it depends how much they want all that western aid money doesn't it?

They know they'll get it anyway.
The presence of the Taliban on the NW Frontier is worth squillions in US aid.

[The Stranger]

It's funny you mention it - I did actually hesitate afore writing that as I wonder if there was any proof that he existed. That's why I qualified my statement by saying "...anywhere near proven.."

I was making the assumption.

Which only cast doubt on any of your arguments.
Are the all based on assumption?
How is the reader to discern what you say is fact or assumption.

[pzkpfw]

Pics.

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/11/mumbai_under_attack.html

[Oscar]

Which only cast doubt on any of your arguments.
Are the all based on assumption?
How is the reader to discern what you say is fact or assumption.

Jeez, if we checked historical facts in any argument we had, we wouldn't get much done, would we? History is hardly ever solid fact, merely supposition and interpretation. The argument currently going on here about "Area Bombing" is a good example of that: "Just Desserts" on one side "War Crime" on the other. Notwithstanding that I clearly qualified the comment.

For myself, I doubt anyone's argument unless I know the truth of the statement. This may shock you, but people have been known to fib on the Internet...

[The Stranger]

Jeez, if we checked historical facts in any argument we had, we wouldn't get much done, would we?



This may shock you, but people have been known to fib on the Internet...

That's it, don't let the truth get in the way of a good storey, and hey you can always justify it by pointing that others do it.

The important thing is that you are arguing anyway, keep it up.

[Oscar]

That's it, don't let the truth get in the way of a good storey, and hey you can always justify it by pointing that others do it.

The important thing is that you are arguing anyway, keep it up.

Is it it comfortable up there on that high horse?
The point you make is somewhat obtuse as the post in question wasn't untruthful.

As for argument or debate, it's always a good thing.
I don't much arguing here, as the intellectual tide is a little shallow.
There has been a lot of debate on these particular subjects over at ADVRider with the Septics, and I have to say I've learned a lot whilst getting the odd intellectual thrashing.

[Winston001]

I don't much arguing here, as the intellectual tide is a little shallow.


Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!

[Cr1MiNaL]

There will be no peace and no mercy, not till the guilty are punished. If India's money hungry politicians do nothing, there will be trouble from within. Indians are not known to shurk away from a threat, and this is a threat to Natiaonal security. The Indian government has declared a security status of 'war' already and will immobilize troops to the borders if I know anything. Watch the news folks for there is going to be some major arse wooping. No negotiations with terrorists, kill them all. Jai Hind !

Mumbai will always be a home to me, just as much as NZ is. It hurts so bad to see it burning.

[Scouse]

Mumbai will always be a home to me, just as much as NZ is. It hurts so bad to see it burning.Raj your such a drama queen its not exactly burning at the moment now is it?

[hdus001]

Easier said than done...Its almost a failed state, however it is also armed to the teeth (and guess who supplies their arms and money for their arms)...Bombing Karachi would only do the same damage that bombing Mumbai would.

I dont think war is even an option when the two countries are nuclear and are closely matched in military strength.

[mstriumph]

I really like your posts Mstriumph so please don't think I'm picking on you.

Lines on maps. Don't blame the British, ............:D
nahhh - course not - no problem ;).... and i understand and agree with your 'big picture' comments

.. but in the subject posts i was referring specifically to the india/pakistan debacle .... the partition of british india into secular india and the new islamic state of pakistan was definately down to the brits ...

i still think we have a lot to answer for

[Winston001]

The Indian government has declared a security status of 'war' already and will immobilize troops to the borders if I know anything. Watch the news folks for there is going to be some major arse wooping. No negotiations with terrorists, kill them all. Jai Hind !

Mumbai will always be a home to me, just as much as NZ is. It hurts so bad to see it burning.

Yes I hope they do immobilise troops........


But seriously, Mumbai isn't burning. It's an exciting and vibrant city of 19 million people and almost every one of those inhabitants will be going on with their daily lives. You know as well as I do that for the ordinary Indian its a safe place. The biggest problem is mob hysteria and that does pose a real threat to national and regional security.

[Scouse]

Entschuldigen,Juden?.:bye:Nice try fritz but no, Liverpool Protestant and proud of it.

[enigma51]

There will be no peace and no mercy, not till the guilty are punished. If India's money hungry politicians do nothing, there will be trouble from within. Indians are not known to shurk away from a threat, and this is a threat to Natiaonal security. The Indian government has declared a security status of 'war' already and will immobilize troops to the borders if I know anything. Watch the news folks for there is going to be some major arse wooping. No negotiations with terrorists, kill them all. Jai Hind !

Mumbai will always be a home to me, just as much as NZ is. It hurts so bad to see it burning.

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity

[Cr1MiNaL]

I dont think war is even an option when the two countries are nuclear and are closely matched in military strength.

Closely matched in military strength? R you serious? I hope not.:blink:

Nukes, well yes they are devastating, but not if you strike first !:2guns:

It wouldn't surprise me if we saw an American - Indian coalition army fuck up Pakistan, kinda like taking a dirt bike to the back o yer garden.

[SixPackBack]

Closely matched in military strength? R you serious? I hope not.:blink:

Nukes, well yes they are devastating, but not if you strike first !:2guns:

It wouldn't surprise me if we saw an American - Indian coalition army fuck up Pakistan, kinda like taking a dirt bike to the back o yer garden.

Get real. Obama will be backing out of further wars not getting involved in pissy neighbour disputes.......get some perspective!.........launching a nuclear strike over the Mumbai Hotel incident makes as much sense as invading Iraq over 911.

[jrandom]

The Indian government... will immobilize troops

:laugh: <tenchars>

[Cr1MiNaL]

launching a nuclear strike over the Mumbai Hotel incident makes as much sense as invading Iraq over 911.

yesss... and your point is? It still happened!

[SixPackBack]

yesss... and your point is? It still happened!

My point is attacking Pakistan over a pissy little event is sabre rattling and nothing more. 150 people die=millions in a Nuclear attack?

[98tls]

Get real. Obama will be backing out of further wars not getting involved in pissy neighbour disputes.......get some perspective!.........launching a nuclear strike over the Mumbai Hotel incident makes as much sense as invading Iraq over 911. Mate if we believe "sense" will prevail then i am off to start digging a shelter.:bye:

[hdus001]

My point is attacking Pakistan over a pissy little event is sabre rattling and nothing more. 150 people die=millions in a Nuclear attack?

Exactly.

And killing millions in a nuclear strike just to kill the 0.1% who are terrorists makes you no better than the terrorists themselves.

[Winston001]

.........launching a nuclear strike over the Mumbai Hotel incident makes as much sense as invading Iraq over 911.

One day historians will be able to make sense of the Iraqi invasion (which I supported by the way) but there wasn't any one reason - which I think is your point.

Certainly the US populace looked for revenge after 9/11 and Afghanistan received it. Saddam Hussein had tried to have President Bush (Senior) assassinated and his son, George W Bush held a personal vendetta for that.

The Weapons of Mass Destruction intelligence was flawed although Saddam wanted the West to think he had such weapons = power, don't mess with me.

Oil - this is a popular reason for the war but the US didn't need to invade to get it. Lets be realistic - virtually evey oil producing nation in the world relies like a heroin addict on the mega dollars they get each day by selling oil. Politics comes a poor second to money so there was never any danger the oil would dry up.

Political influence - this was also a reason for the war. Geopolitically the Middle East was looking very unstable, with Islamic radicalism and nuclear weapons in development or on hand.

None of those reasons exist to cause India, let alone the USA to go to war with Pakistan. What is more likely is a nervous Pakistani commander (or an Indian) will see what he thinks is an attack on the Kashmir border and let loose. War isn't always logical.

[SPman]

Exactly.

And killing millions in a nuclear strike just to kill the 0.1% who are terrorists makes you no better than the terrorists themselves.
It's never held the powers back before...........

[BIGBOSSMAN]

What we need is another war

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6HVFfvuZvM