I think my Volty has had a seizure

[klingon]

Rode to Clevedon with some friends on Saturday. Volty ran perfectly well with no sign of trouble. Went to leave the Clevedon Cafe after stopping for coffee and Volty just went "clunk!" when I tried to start her up. :(

We first thought it might be the battery so tried starting her with the battery from another bike, with the same result.

My friend thought maybe the starter had seized, so we removed the starter motor and tried to push-start her. As soon as he let the clutch out, everything just locked up. Engine didn't turn over at all.

Poor wee Volty had to be trailered back to town. She's just gone to Holeshot for them to take a look.

The funny thing is she showed no signs of trouble while I was riding. I would have thought that an engine that was about to seize would have shown some signs of being super-heated... but I didn't see, hear, feel or smell anything unusual.

I know she's only a little thumper but she's my Best Bike Ever. I hope she pulls through. :weep:

[MIXONE]

I say brace yourself for sad news.Bugger right when the best riding weather is starting to mate.

[Ixion]

Won't be a seizure. Probably a jammed starter clutch. If so, it's no biggy.

[vgcspares]

Hope it is minor, but even if it is - use the scare as a reason to start checking your oil level and tire pressures before every trip

[MSTRS]

Try putting the bike in 1st, and then rock it backwards. If it is something to do with the starter, that should pop it free.

[klingon]

Won't be a seizure. Probably a jammed starter clutch. If so, it's no biggy.

Thanks for the thought. I am hoping for the best but prepared for the worst.


Hope it is minor, but even if it is - use the scare as a reason to start checking your oil level and tire pressures before every trip

Yep, always check the oil, tyre pressure and tyre condition before setting off. Checked the oil again on the side of the road and there was still plenty. (She might only be a Volty but I do look after her!)

[slimjim]

Try putting the bike in 1st, and then rock it backwards. If it is something to do with the starter, that should pop it free.


helpfull if she still has bike...:laugh:

however yes would think starter clutch problem, and yes not a big cost

[klingon]

Try putting the bike in 1st, and then rock it backwards. If it is something to do with the starter, that should pop it free.

Ah! So that's what he was doing! The friend I was riding with tried this, but it didn't help. He also whacked the case of the starter with a spanner to see if he could shake something loose, and when that didn't work he took the starter off completely. No luck.

[MSTRS]

Oh...that sounds much more serious then. Still seems odd that there was no trouble before you stopped.
Good luck.
Edit: - take the spark plug out and then try turning the engine over. It's unlikely, but maybe the float valve didn't seal and your engine is full of petrol (hydrolocked)?

[klingon]

...Still seems odd that there was no trouble before you stopped.
...

That's the bit that's puzzling me. I've been riding the Volty pretty much every day for the last two years, and I'm pretty alert to any sudden changes.

A Volty doesn't have any of those fancy instruments like a GN250 - no temperature gauge or rev counter - but if anything I think that just makes the rider more aware of listening to the bike and feeling it rather than relying on instruments to tell you what's going on. I'm sure I would have noticed the warning signs if she was over-heating.

Edit: The bike has gone to the workshop for a professional check-up so unfortunately I can't experiment on her at the moment. Would I have smelled petrol if the engine was hydrolocked?

[ManDownUnder]

oh poo - and good luck!

edit

A Volty doesn't have any of those fancy instruments like a GN250

I can honestly say I have never heard those two words in such close proximity.

[Ixion]

Rocking backwards is a car trick, doesn't always work with bike starter clutches (ramp and ball). Removing the starter *motor* won't access the drive, which is behind the covers.

Could be anything , but a four stroke to seize immediately on starting (let alone *before* starting) would be most unusual indeed.

I'm sure I recall someone else having this exact problem with a GN recently.

EDIT: Ah, yes this (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=82692&highlight=GN250+seized)thread. But the bugger never came back and said what the problem turned out to be!

[slimjim]

Ah! So that's what he was doing! The friend I was riding with tried this, but it didn't help. He also whacked the case of the starter with a spanner to see if he could shake something loose, and when that didn't work he took the starter off completely. No luck.

well well so someone was trying all the right things with ya..:weep:yes only thing would have been ..pull plug out..see if piston has movement...

well update please

[klingon]

...
I'm sure I recall someone else having this exact problem with a GN recently.

EDIT: Ah, yes this (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=82692&highlight=GN250+seized)thread. But the bugger never came back and said what the problem turned out to be!

Yes! That's exactly what happened! What a shame he never came back with more detail once he started fiddling with stuff.

My Volty's 1995 and made in Japan, so at least we can eliminate that whole Chinese-made GN phenomenon.

I promise I will let you know what's happening as soon as I learn more.

[gijoe1313]

:no: poopers, sorry to hear the volty is feeling a little tired! I hope all will be well and it is something simple the nefarious gremlins have nerfed. Bikes that you have had for a while and ridden many a road have a special place in your heart ... :weep: Let's hope the prognosis is not dire, nor some grim that a wee bash with Mr Block and Mr Mallet cannot cure! :oi-grr:

[Ixion]

Mr Block and Mr Mallet deal to two strokes. This is a four stroke.

[klingon]

well well so someone was trying all the right things with ya..:weep:yes only thing would have been ..pull plug out..see if piston has movement...

well update please

Yeah my friend Chris was definitely a handy bloke to have around at a time like that. Officially we were on a ride to test the lovely new V-Strom (DL1000) that he and his wife are going to ride around the South Island.

Things I have learned so far
a) The V-Strom has a very comfy pillion seat
b) It's a bit weird pillioning behind a guy you're not married to, especially when his wife is following on another bike
c) Whenever one rides out of town, one should take along a handy bloke.

[klingon]

Uh-oh, call from Holeshot says it's serious. Will go and have a look-see and report back.

[tri boy]

Hope it works out to be minor klingon.
If it's any concellation, kannys Volty is flying the flag still.
fingers crossed for ya:cool:

[xwhatsit]

Uh-oh, call from Holeshot says it's serious. Will go and have a look-see and report back.
Poo. Hopefully my sneering disregard for all bike shops is accurate :yes:

What could really be wrong, though? It's not going to seize the piston in the bore from cold, surely nothing would go wrong with the bottom end, would it really drop a valve from turning it over when hitting the starter? Surely it must be this newfangled electric leg carry-on.

Good luck, I understand that horrible feeling in your stomach you've got :bye:

[Ixion]

Wel quite a few things COULD go wrong

Broken camchain. Cam chain off its sprocket. Broken conrod. Broken crankshaft. Mangled magneto. Primary drive sheared. Seized camshaft. Valve lost its cottars and bent. Broken cylinder holding down bolts (seen that). Broken cylinder barrel (seen that) . Sheared camshaft drive gear (dunno if there is one, but seen that too).

All of them rather rare though. And not entirely likely when trying to start. We shall have to wait and see what Holeshots say. Presumably they have dissected down to the cause.

[rainman]

Oh noes! Hopefully it's not terminal... do let us know once you hear the verdict.

[klingon]

Well, that was a thoroughly interesting experience. I've never seen the innards of my bike before. And I'm sure it's not meant to look like that.

Here's what happened:

The bolt sheered off from the starter clutch (good guess, Ixion!)
The head of the bolt did one complete circuit of the crank case, scoring a rather spectacular rut all the way around.
At the end of its journey it ripped right through the oil gallery (even more spectacular).

I have several options.
1) Have Holeshot replace the left hand side crank case with one from a wrecked GN
1A) While they're at it, they could replace some or all of the other tired old bits & pieces like the clutch basket, piston rings, valve stem seals & cam chain
2) Steal the engine out of Kanny's Volty and swap them over. :bleh:
2A) Find another Volty to cannibalise
3) Pay Holeshot $180 labour and $50 collection fee and take all the bits home
3A) Sell the parts
3B) Turn her into a project bike

[Ixion]

Bugger. Apart from the oil gallery, that would be a "OK, yeah, " problem. How bad is the oil gallery damage?

One option here (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-accessories/Other/auction-189707072.htm). $25.

[klingon]

Bugger. Apart from the oil gallery, that would be a "OK, yeah, " problem. How bad is the oil gallery damage?

One option here (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-accessories/Other/auction-189707072.htm). $25.

The oil gallery is smashed to smithereens. I am very impressed that a little starter motor could exert that kind of force.

Thanks for the TM link. Will investigate.

[slimjim]

yup.....bugger...and bugger...motor transplant or sell as is...

[tri boy]

Or option 3c, stick a DR350 engine in the frame:apumpin:
Sorry to hear about the seriousness of the damage. :(

[rainman]

Or option 3c, stick a DR350 engine in the frame:apumpin:


Now that sounds like a great plan! TurboVolty!

Bummer Klingon, that's bad news indeed.

[gijoe1313]

Crikey that is not good indeed :no: Beyond even Mr Block and Mr Mallet! I don't know what you will do, but it will be the right choice!

Did you managed to take any piccies? :(

[Deviant]

Hey, didn't update my other thread because I didn't get it fixed- lack of time and money.

But now that I see this thread I'm rather concerned.

It sounds very similar, and we've tried almost all the same things short of removing the starter motor, plus probably quite a few more.

With the Volty, it looks as though something came off and did damage.
With the GN, I don't think that's the case, it was movable when it stopped, it wasn't 10 mins later. I think it's something less serious, I hope, and I'm low on $ to get it investigated until maybe early Feb.

Let me know what it costs if you get Holeshot to fix it. I've heard good things about them.

[Choco]

Wel quite a few things COULD go wrong

Broken camchain. Cam chain off its sprocket. Broken conrod. Broken crankshaft. Mangled magneto. Primary drive sheared. Seized camshaft. Valve lost its cottars and bent. Broken cylinder holding down bolts (seen that). Broken cylinder barrel (seen that) . Sheared camshaft drive gear (dunno if there is one, but seen that too).

:blink:
Thats quiet a list you have there!


The oil gallery is smashed to smithereens. I am very impressed that a little starter motor could exert that kind of force.

:(
Sorry to hear your Bike's in a sorry state, hope you can get it going again!

[klingon]

...Did you managed to take any piccies? :(

Good point. Haven't taken any piccies yet, but will take my camera next time. I'm planning on keeping the offending parts to add them to my "offerings to the god of stationary." (My bike has only ever had problems when not moving!)


...
With the Volty, it looks as though something came off and did damage.
With the GN, I don't think that's the case, it was movable when it stopped, it wasn't 10 mins later. I think it's something less serious, I hope, and I'm low on $ to get it investigated until maybe early Feb.

Let me know what it costs if you get Holeshot to fix it. I've heard good things about them.

Sounds the same to me - the Volty was fine when I stopped, then when I tried to start her, the bolt sheared off and that's when the damage was done. I suggest removing the starter motor and see if anything changes (to eliminate problems inside the actual starter motor). If the bike still can't be bump-started, then Ixion's diagnosis of an issue with the starter clutch sounds likely (maybe not exactly the same as mine but somewhere in the vicinity).

I'm expecting quotes from Holeshot today and l will let you know. To have them take it apart and diagnose the problem has so far cost $180 for their labour + $50 to transport the bike from home to their workshop. If you can find out what the problem is by yourself you may save a bit of money and have a better idea what you're in for.

[xwhatsit]

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.

I wonder what the starting price was on that `half-off' GN tardme engine?

[Squiggles]

Its not uncommon of course for them to drop valves, so i suppose you're lucky yours hasn't...

I've got two bottom ends worth of GN motors sitting in the gargre, but suspect it will be cheaper in the end for you to just buy a fresh motor from a wrecked GN (even a insurance writeoff, one sold last week for ~$750, easily parted out to recoup costs). Suspect it'll cost alot for the work of a rebuild at the shop... Don't mind giving a helping hand, but times limited these days :(

[klingon]

Its not uncommon of course for them to drop valves, so i suppose you're lucky yours hasn't...

I've got two bottom ends worth of GN motors sitting in the gargre, but suspect it will be cheaper in the end for you to just buy a fresh motor from a wrecked GN (even a insurance writeoff, one sold last week for ~$750, easily parted out to recoup costs). Suspect it'll cost alot for the work of a rebuild at the shop... Don't mind giving a helping hand, but times limited these days :(

So far I haven't managed to find a wrecked GN. You'd think they'd be as common as muck, what with learners falling off all the time and wrecking the rest of the bike! But no... seems to be nothing around right at this moment... Will keep looking though :)

[xwhatsit]

Hey what do you actually need? DR250 is the same, innit?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-accessories/Clutch-gearboxes/auction-191118033.htm

Thirty-five bucks for a bottom end.

[Squiggles]

Hey what do you actually need? DR250 is the same, innit?

Not quite, DR is kick start only

[xwhatsit]

Not quite, DR is kick start only
Does that actually affect the crankcase? Hmm I suppose it would. I've seen RS cases and on the surface it looks like it's just a matter of the outer casings being different between the kickstart and electric versions.

I feel silly, but what exactly is this `oil gallery' people are talking about? Where the oil is pumped up from the oil pump?

[racerhead]

I feel silly, but what exactly is this `oil gallery' people are talking about? Where the oil is pumped up from the oil pump?

Yes thats exactly what it is. The oil pump supplies galleries with oil under pressure so it can be
carried to different parts of the engine.

[klingon]

Update: Holeshot has quoted me $1700 for a rebuild. The Volty had done about 50,000 km anyway, so there are all sorts of bits and pieces getting 'tired' and ready for replacement.

Instead, I've decided to go for the option of getting a whole used GN250 engine and replacing it. Please let me know if you see any GNs going cheap! Thanks!

[vifferman]

I feel silly, but what exactly is this `oil gallery' people are talking about?
It depends on the context, as there are several kinds.


A place where various kinds of oil art are displayed, sometimes for sale, sometimes just for viewing.
A place for oils to sit and observe the action (also known as "the cheap seats").
A passage made by tunnelling creatures, in this case probably made by oil tunnelling its way through stuff.
A platform on a ship (presumably an oil tanker).
A long enclosed passageway or hall, presumably an oil hall?

[klingon]

A long enclosed passageway or hall, presumably an oil hall?


Actually Mr Smart Alec, that's exactly what it is! :clap:

A long enclosed hall for the oil to be pushed through. In this case, it's built into the crank case. I really must go and get it from Holeshot and take a photo as it's quite spectacular after the bolt head has bashed its way through.

[portokiwi]

Anyone seen the guy wearing the Red and black half helmet. Looks like horse rider wear.
I saw him on the bridge heading towards the northen motorway. thin trou treandy sports shoes and no gloves.
When he pased me he was grinning so hard I thought I could see the bugs in his teeth lol. Yes he was riding a silver volty...:whistle:

[vifferman]

Actually Mr Smart Alec, that's exactly what it is! :clap:

A long enclosed hall for the oil to be pushed through.
:rolleyes:

No kidding?!?
(Sorry - I'm reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyre allyreallyreallyreally f'kn tired today, and reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallyre allyreallyreallyreally f'kn bored, and the computer's on the fritz, despite our New! Improved!! Systems Admin Dude.:brick:
I had to spell out to him that I can't work unless the database server actually has disk space ALL the time, not just occasionally. :crazy:

[vifferman]

When he pased me he was grinning so hard I thought I could see the bugs in his teeth lol.
Grinning? Or was it the Death Rictus Mask of Sheer Terror?

[portokiwi]

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Naturally it has a soft plush interior, a fully adjustable under-chin strap and bonus visor.


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- Under Chin Strap


** IMPORTANT **

This is not an approved safety helmet. It does not come with any certification or safety standards labeling. Use with caution.

[klingon]

Grinning? Or was it the Death Rictus Mask of Sheer Terror?

Yeah that'll be it. His Volty was probably going incredibly fast and he could barely control its power. Unlike mine which is broken. :crybaby:


ITEM: Retro Motorbike Helmet - Black/Other - Brand New

...

** IMPORTANT **

This is not an approved safety helmet. It does not come with any certification or safety standards labeling. Use with caution.

OMG they are selling people toys to wear on their heads while riding a motorbike?!

[portokiwi]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Helmets-clothing-footwear/Helmets/auction-192020082.htm
The sad thing about it is that I have seen quite a few scooters using them.
:cool: I let him pass me:msn-wink: So he could finaly tell someone he passed a Kawasaki. If he knew it was me (King of slow) he would tell no one:clap::first: The Volty looks realy nice. is that the same as 007s as Gabby thought that was a nice bike.
Sorry 007 cant remember your bike now.

[Squiggles]

Ill keep an eye out, should be an insurance wreck popping up sometime soon

[xwhatsit]

Ill keep an eye out, should be an insurance wreck popping up sometime soon
What, yours? You don't even have insurance, do you? :rolleyes:

Yeah, summer, Christmas, here we go...

[klingon]

Ill keep an eye out, should be an insurance wreck popping up sometime soon

Thanks squiggles :)

*Resists temptation to bash passing GNs*:whistle:

[musicman]

Didn't you recently get a full licence? Have you read Gubb's threads? His Hyo's engine broke about a week after he got his full, so he upgraded. Maybe it's a sign that you should upgrade. :whistle:

[klingon]

Didn't you recently get a full licence? Have you read Gubb's threads? His Hyo's engine broke about a week after he got his full, so he upgraded. Maybe it's a sign that you should upgrade. :whistle:

Yeah I would like to upgrade - if only I could afford to! I was actually intending to sell the Volty to help me fund an upgrade, but she's not worth much in her current state, and by the time I fix her up it will be a bit of a financial setback. :(

So in fact it must be a sign that I should keep her a bit longer! Or win lotto! Hooray! :banana:

(And I think I've had my full for about a year now... time flies when you're having fun!)

[nallac]

PM sent,
hopefully sorted this weekend.
Hope its what your after.

[Ixion]

:rolleyes:

.. and the computer's on the fritz, despite our New! Improved!! Systems Admin Dude.:brick:
I had to spell out to him that I can't work unless the database server actually has disk space ALL the time, not just occasionally. :crazy:

WTF? *You* don't work all the time, right? So why should the DB server have *space* all the time? Are you claiming that it's one rule for you and one rule for the server?

[klingon]

PM sent,
hopefully sorted this weekend.
Hope its what your after.

*UPDATE*

Collected the donor GN from nallac's workmate today and delivered it to Holeshot where they are going to perform the open-heart surgery. The donor bike is pretty decent - it hadn't been wrecked, just terribly neglected for the whole four years of its life! Poor thing!

Fortunately it has been neglected while inside a shed - the tank, seat etc are in pretty much perfect condition (although the rest of the bike has the usual Chinese GN corrosion).

A couple of people have expressed an interest in picking over the remains of the poor unfortunate beast after its vital organs have been removed. I will make a decision how to handle parting it out once the Volty has been successfully resuscitated.

Thank you everyone who offered help, support and advice during this process.

[Swoop]

Excellent news Klingon!
Hopefully back on the road asap!

[Deviant]

Hey, how'd you go with the bike? If you go back to the thread I made below, you will see my progress. $700 all up and replaced it with a Japanese engine- old but supposedly more reliable. I've heard a few times that the Chinese ones have a common bolt that comes off and messes them up.

Hope it's all good and running fine! What was the damage financially?

[klingon]

Hey, how'd you go with the bike? If you go back to the thread I made below, you will see my progress. $700 all up and replaced it with a Japanese engine- old but supposedly more reliable. I've heard a few times that the Chinese ones have a common bolt that comes off and messes them up.

Hope it's all good and running fine! What was the damage financially?

Hiya Deviant, yep the Volty is up and running! I bought a whole GN off Nallac's buddy for $700 (oops that just reminded me I still owe Nallac a cold beer for setting up the deal! :drinkup:)

Then I paid Holeshot some money (don't make me tell you how much :crybaby:) to take my bike to bits and put the new engine in.

Then I sold the remains of the GN and the broken bits from my Volty to Roger Action wreckers across the road for $200.

So yeah, cost me a bit of money, but at least I have my cherished Volty back. :love: