Sensible approach to drugs...

[Mikkel]

it may even happen in our lifetime.

http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSTRE4AT2O620081130

Swiss back heroin prescription for addicts

ZURICH (Reuters) - Swiss voters on Sunday backed a scheme allowing heroin addicts to obtain the drug under prescription, angering conservatives who believe crime will rise as result.

Some 68 percent voted in favor of the prescription program that was already approved by parliament, making permanent an experiment that has been in place since 1994.

I shall be very interested in seeing how this is going to work out. Although, if it's a 14 year old experiment that they now choose to make permanent I suspect it'll work out just fine. The Swiss are not exactly stupid.

Although this bit at the end is interesting:

In another referendum on Sunday, the Swiss rejected the decriminalization of cannabis, with 63 percent voting against an initiative that was supported by the Social Democrats and the Green party.

[R6_kid]

Heroin used to be a prescription drug, in fact im pretty sure they even gave it to children.

[vtec]

Heroin is bad mmmkay. Seriously. Highly addictive brain destroyer.

Burns out the dopamine receptors in your brain, disabling your ability to feel natural happiness/excitement/joy, and effectively makes people husks. Stick to the track days guys. Most people have no idea of the longterm effects, which is why it should be banned.

As someone who has seen the effect of drugs on someone I cared about a lot. In the end I had to cut all ties to that person. Not happy. Sad.

The only reason why they might make it legal is so that the muppets who use don't have to commit crime to maintain their addictions. Doesn't mean that it's harmless fun at all. Removes all purpose and drive to life and generally DESTROYS people. Drugs are seriously for rubbish people who don't know how to have fun.

Other drugs in this basket are cocaine, P, crystal meth, speed, ecstacy.

I've also heard that some people are prone to getting psychotic breaks from the use of marijuana, can trigger permanent depression and bipolar issues in people. This doesn't apply to all people. Surely there's better ways to make yourself happy. People just need to look around a bit more and do THINGS that make themselves and others happy.

[Mikkel]

Heroin is bad mmmkay. Seriously. Highly addictive brain destroyer.

Yep it is bad alright, but it is also extremely difficult to kick the habit.

So if you're addicted I prefer you wouldn't have to become a criminal and destroy your life completely just because someone says heroin is bad and you can't have it even if you need it.

Not that different from alcohol to be brutally honest. Alcohol is just slightly less addictive.

We all know that just making something illegal is not going to stop people from doing it.

[vtec]

Yeah alcohol's not brilliant either. But it's not even in the ballpark compared to Heroin. It does not burn out your ability to have natural happiness like the amphetamine range of drugs do. That's why all these muso's and druggy's seem so laid back and boring. It's not cause they are "too cool man, and too rock and roll" it's just that they genuinely don't give a shit about anything cause their brains are fried. Well maybe it is a good idea to supplement the addicts supply, that way we can get rid of them faster. It would also remove funding from a lot of the crime syndicates. They would then have to get jobs mopping your floors hahaaha. It is often irreparable damage.

It also changes people in lots of other ways, with the person I knew. I noticed huge mood swings, and an inability to see any fault in themselves, and they play the victim all the time, and they feel that everyone else is fucked and they are perfect. It tore me apart. The example I'm talking about is 'P' usage in an ex-girlfriend.

[discotex]

Yeah alcohol's not brilliant either. But it's not even in the ballpark compared to Heroin. It does not burn out your ability to have natural happiness like the amphetamine range of drugs do.

Ummmm dude think you're a bit confused. Heroin is not an amphetamine. You're talking about P/meth/speed. In that respect you're pretty much on the money.

Heroin is used in hospitals alongside morphine and dozens of other strong painkillers and doesn't cause irreversible damage to either the brain or body when prescribed.

EDIT: Wonder how long this thread will take to degenerate :corn:

[vtec]

Sorry, thought heroin was amphetamine based. From what I've seen though here in Melbourne. Heroin is a scourge and the effects are WORSE than the other amphetamine based drugs I mentioned. It has definitely done the most damage out of all the drugs on these streets here in Melbourne. I'm not sure of the longterm effects of users, but you can definitely tell by just looking at them, there are permanent effects prescribed or otherwise. Longterm use of any mind altering/mood changing substance changes the way peoples minds work.

I've seen some shocking and weird shit here in Melbourne. I live pretty central (chapel st) so I see all the freaks and druggys. It's funny cause it still feels safer than Auckland. The people are less threatening here.

[Mikkel]

Yeah alcohol's not brilliant either. But it's not even in the ballpark compared to Heroin. It does not burn out your ability to have natural happiness like the amphetamine range of drugs do. That's why all these muso's and druggy's seem so laid back and boring. It's not cause they are "too cool man, and too rock and roll" it's just that they genuinely don't give a shit about anything cause their brains are fried. Well maybe it is a good idea to supplement the addicts supply, that way we can get rid of them faster.

Heroin is bad, but there are worse things out there. From what I understand heroin is not an issue here in NZ. However, it is very much a problem in Europe and the largest part of the problem (from a societal perspective) is the crimes resulting from people needing their fix.
Having seen miserable people shoot themselves up in railway underpasses with crushed ketogan pills they most likely bought at a high premium for money most likely gained through begging or crime I must say I am all for anything that'll allow an addict to retain some resemblance of human dignity.

Many of the health problems seen in users are caused by lack of sterile IV needles and contaminants from street heroin.

As for the drug itself, I am not entirely sure about the long-term effects - but AFAIK it isn't a neuro-toxin per say.

[vtec]

Neuro-toxin or not. Longterm effects are here:
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/heroin/f/herion_faq05.htm

Answer: One of the most detrimental long-term effects of heroin is addiction itself.

Addiction is a chronic, relapsing disease, characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use, and by neurochemical and molecular changes in the brain. Heroin also produces profound degrees of tolerance and physical dependence, which are also powerful motivating factors for compulsive use and abuse.

As with abusers of any addictive drug, heroin abusers gradually spend more and more time and energy obtaining and using the drug. Once they are addicted, the heroin abusers' primary purpose in life becomes seeking and using drugs. The drugs literally change their brains.

Physical dependence develops with higher doses of the drug. With physical dependence, the body adapts to the presence of the drug and withdrawal symptoms occur if use is reduced abruptly. Withdrawal may occur within a few hours after the last time the drug is taken.

and
http://www.articlesbase.com/self-help-articles/heroin-abuse-short-long-term-effects-of-heroin-addiction-143285.html

Long-term effects are far more serious and occur with repeated use. Heroin addicts suffer from collapsed veins, infections of the heart lining and valves, abscesses, cellulitis, liver disease and pulmonary complications. There is also the risk of the sometimes-fatal infection through shared syringes.

Heroin usage becomes addiction when a tolerance to the drug is built up. This means the potential addict will have to increase the dosage to experience the same "rush". Tolerance also means that the body has assimilated the drug and will suffer withdrawal without it. Now the drug is needed not only by the mind craving the high but also the body.


And this one is the best:
http://www.michaelshouse.com/heroin-addiction/effects-of-heroin.html
The social upheaval effect is the most damaging on others around the person. So in that respect providing prescribed Heroin might be a reasonable idea. But if that gets used to hook others, or is onsold on the blackmarket then it is increasing the destruction of life.

Also from what I've noticed druggy's are the most selfish people in existance. Generalisation I know, but that's cause it's generally the case.

Although from reading all this, I think amphetamines are worse in many ways. But heroin is worse in many ways too

[discotex]

Many of the health problems seen in users are caused by lack of sterile IV needles and contaminants from street heroin.

As for the drug itself, I am not entirely sure about the long-term effects - but AFAIK it isn't a neuro-toxin per say.

That's my understanding.

I read in one article this trial has made heroin un-cool for the Swiss and they're seeing less kids get into it which is great. Guess you take the edgy-ness away once you see a bunch of old druggies lining up at the hospital every day.

[Mikkel]

Answer: One of the most detrimental long-term effects of heroin is addiction itself.

Addiction is a chronic, relapsing disease, characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use, and by neurochemical and molecular changes in the brain. Heroin also produces profound degrees of tolerance and physical dependence, which are also powerful motivating factors for compulsive use and abuse.

Hmmm, the part I highlighted pretty much just says to me this stuff is addictive and you can build a tolerance to it. Pretty repetitive really...

So if "the most detrimental long-term effect of heroin is the addiction itself" and it is nearly impossible for a user to quit that addiction... What valid arguments could there be to criminalise the substance and make people criminals just for the sheer hell of it? By all means, control the substance - but criminalise? :crazy:

Since:


As with abusers of any addictive drug, heroin abusers gradually spend more and more time and energy obtaining and using the drug. Once they are addicted, the heroin abusers' primary purpose in life becomes seeking and using drugs. The drugs literally change their brains.

Change - not damage. If you beat the addiction, what would the long-term effects be? (Provided you didn't have to throw your entire life out of the window to sustain said addiction or had to inject contaminants that ruined your body in order to get your fix...)


Physical dependence develops with higher doses of the drug...

Physical and neurological dependence - I dare say that both would be easier to fight if you were not a broken husk with a criminal label stuck onto you for good measure.



I read in one article this trial has made heroin un-cool for the Swiss and they're seeing less kids get into it which is great. Guess you take the edgy-ness away once you see a bunch of old druggies lining up at the hospital every day.

Yep - there's definitely an X-factor involved with a lot of drug use. A misunderstood perception that doing drugs is cool... and the harder the drugs the cooler you are.

[vtec]

The change that occurs to their brains is not a good thing, and in this sense I feel that qualifies as damage. If you can beat the addiction and get clean doesn't mean that the desire ever leaves. That is damage my friend. And it will be accompanied by mood swings from the permanent inner struggle. Similar to that in my alcoholic father, he beat addiction and arguably a much easier addiction to beat, but he had and still does have violent moodswings aswell.

You have a point about the broken husk thing. Although I think that it can still make people lose sight of anything that's important in their lives without it being hard to obtain, and thus will make them husks regardless of their source and what they have to do to get it.

Totally agree with the cool analysis. From where I'm sitting drugs are for losers, but people think that because it's naughty it's cool. Fools. Anything that makes people see the reality of it is a good thing (within reason).

[Mikkel]

Blimey you expanded that post significantly after posting it... :)


Long-term effects are far more serious and occur with repeated use. Heroin addicts suffer from collapsed veins, infections of the heart lining and valves, abscesses, cellulitis, liver disease and pulmonary complications. There is also the risk of the sometimes-fatal infection through shared syringes.

Heroin usage becomes addiction when a tolerance to the drug is built up. This means the potential addict will have to increase the dosage to experience the same "rush". Tolerance also means that the body has assimilated the drug and will suffer withdrawal without it. Now the drug is needed not only by the mind craving the high but also the body.

Most of these effects are due to contaminants found in street heroin (e.g. crushed pills molten and injected, use of already used syringes, living on the streets, etc.)

Issues with overdosing often occur due to significant variations in the strength of street heroin, this makes it hard to dose it accurately. The larger the dose required - the larger the effect of this variance.

Most, if indeed not all, of these effects would be mitigated through use of clean prescribed heroin and fresh syringes. Dosage would be a trivial matter using medicinal grade heroin.


The social upheaval effect is the most damaging on others around the person. So in that respect providing prescribed Heroin might be a reasonable idea. But if that gets used to hook others, or is onsold on the blackmarket then it is increasing the destruction of life.

If the stuff is legal and "easy to get" - then the blackmarket's reason for trading the substance has disappeared. You don't see blackmarket trade of alcohol (maybe to adolescents, since they are not allowed to buy it).
If heroin is cheap (or even free) there's no incentive to get someone else hooked on it...

Legalising heroin would be just as much in the interest of the public at large as the users themselves.


Also from what I've noticed druggy's are the most selfish people in existance. Generalisation I know, but that's cause it's generally the case.

Although from reading all this, I think amphetamines are worse in many ways. But heroin is worse in many ways too

Anyone who get stressed enough is going to loose their "politeness filter". All people are selfish when push comes to show, although the selfishness may well present itself differently depending upon what your values are.

But yes, amphetamines - and especially meth-amphetamines - are horrible drugs. I'd much rather have my kids do heroin than P(which has significant and irreversible neuro-toxic effects with even the slightest dose) - if I had to choose...

[vtec]

Hey I don't have to be polite. This is Kiwibiker. Plus I am angry (not stressed) about the behaviour of druggies I have encountered. So I'll voice it.

And I was never a selfish person a few years ago, in fact I was a super nice guy, super reliable, super doormat to my druggy ex-girlfriend. She taught me to be more selfish, because I had to be to survive around her, which is sad. And I'm a bit bitter. And yeah with her it was 'P' not heroin, but heroin is bad where it's easily obtainable. Looking back I was a naive saint.

I think nearly all of her damage was done before I met her, but she tricked me into thinking she was a good decent soul for long enough to get me to move in with my name on a lease. Then the torture began. And her odd relapse to drugs every now and again made my situation much worse. I'm physically fearful of relationships now. I'm still pained by it all. Anyway I've probably vented enough for one day, cheers for the enlightening discussion. I learned a fair bit.

[candor]

So if "the most detrimental long-term effect of heroin is the addiction itself" and it is nearly impossible for a user to quit that addiction... What valid arguments could there be to criminalise the substance .

That is not the most detrimental long term effect. The reason societies panic over injected heroin is that there is a high risk of sudden death from overdose.
I told someone this once and their non using mates who thought experimenting was amusing, a few weeks later the experimenter was dead from heroin OD! That was not a nice I told you so. It was the worst kind.

Also it actually is neurotoxic. Insofar as it does permanent damage to the brains natural endorphin system (the chemical system that keeps you a bit bouncy and feeling satisfied). The brain stops making endorphins - sometimes permanently.

The endorphin system is also affected by alcohol use and to a lesser degree cannabis. Some peoples endorphin production can recover - others never does.... giving them good cause to continue use in order just to feel normal.

Heroin prescriptions are for addicts who aren't helped by methadone (synthetic long acting "less punch" heroin that can be taken orally daily rather than needs injected every few hours - ouch) as they don't get a sufficient high... if thats what they seek - rather than just a more even keel that methadone with its less up and down blood levels offers.

This type who remain interested in lofty highs are prone to keep polydrugging atop methadone which is ultra risky for fatal overdose. Prescribed heroin is proved overseas safer than taking prescription methadone and supplementing with other street drugs to get the right kick or the alternate of street heroin (dose unknown, can get contaminated resulting in blood poisoning and expensive).

A heroin prescription would likely only be offered to those failing to reduce life chaos by just taking methadone, still chasing highs and who are not candidates for trying abstinence type recovery again due to the damage to their endorphin system being so extensive as to almost ensure relapse. As shown by long periods of miserableness when they have kicked by willpower, or by trying 12 step type programs.

[Headbanger]

Every man, woman or child I have ever known who has taken a drug "hobby" and turned it into a habit has quickly turned into a cunt of a person, seen it happen dozens of times, dozens of drugs, lived amongst it and around it.

And yeah, I see people claim heroin is healthy, Means nothing to me, I've seen the damage done.

Instead of supplementing their habit we would be better off sending them to some remote location to break their habit.

And then shoot the fucks for sport.

If you dance with the devil, He gets to fuck you.

[tommygun]

Instead of supplementing their habit we would be better off sending them to some remote location to break their habit.

Don't we already supplement/support them in this country with methadone?

[candor]

So if "the most detrimental long-term effect of heroin is the addiction itself" and it is nearly impossible for a user to quit that addiction... What valid arguments could there be to criminalise the substance .

That is not the most detrimental long term effect. The reason societies panic over injected heroin is that there is a high risk of sudden death from overdose.
I told someone this once and their non using mates who thought experimenting was amusing, a few weeks later the experimenter who thought they could manage doses being an ultra high IQ guy who was going to be a Dr dropped dead from heroin OD! That was not a nice I told you so. It was the worst kind.

Also it actually is neurotoxic. Insofar as it does permanent damage to the brains natural endorphin system (the chemical system that keeps you a bit bouncy and feeling satisfied). The brain stops making endorphins - sometimes permanently.

The endorphin system is also affected by alcohol use and to a lesser degree cannabis. Some peoples endorphin production can recover - others never does.... giving them good cause to continue use in order just to feel normal.

Heroin prescriptions are for addicts who aren't helped by methadone (synthetic long acting "less punch" heroin that can be taken orally daily rather than needs injected every few hours - ouch) as they don't get a sufficient high... if thats what they seek - rather than just a more even keel. This type are prone to keep polydrugging atop methadone which is ultra risky for fatal overdose.

Prescribed heroin is proved overseas safer than taking prescription methadone and supplementing with other street drugs to get the right kick or the alternate of street opioid heroin (dose unknown, can get contaminated resulting in blood poisoning and expensive).

A heroin prescription would likely only be offered to those failing to reduce life chaos by just taking methadone, still chasing highs and who are not candidates for trying abstinence type recovery again due to the damage to their endorphin system bering so extensive as to almost ensure relapse. As shown by long periods of miserableness when they have kicked or tried 12 step type programs.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Instead of supplementing their habit we would be better off sending them to some remote location to break their habit.

And then shoot the fucks for sport.

If you dance with the devil, He gets to fuck you.

Didn't you call me something like a psycho or something similar a way back?

No mirrors in your house?

[SixPackBack]

Neuro-toxin or not. Longterm effects are here:
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/heroin/f/herion_faq05.htm

Answer: One of the most detrimental long-term effects of heroin is addiction itself.

Addiction is a chronic, relapsing disease, characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use, and by neurochemical and molecular changes in the brain. Heroin also produces profound degrees of tolerance and physical dependence, which are also powerful motivating factors for compulsive use and abuse.

As with abusers of any addictive drug, heroin abusers gradually spend more and more time and energy obtaining and using the drug. Once they are addicted, the heroin abusers' primary purpose in life becomes seeking and using drugs. The drugs literally change their brains.

Physical dependence develops with higher doses of the drug. With physical dependence, the body adapts to the presence of the drug and withdrawal symptoms occur if use is reduced abruptly. Withdrawal may occur within a few hours after the last time the drug is taken.

and
http://www.articlesbase.com/self-help-articles/heroin-abuse-short-long-term-effects-of-heroin-addiction-143285.html

Long-term effects are far more serious and occur with repeated use. Heroin addicts suffer from collapsed veins, infections of the heart lining and valves, abscesses, cellulitis, liver disease and pulmonary complications. There is also the risk of the sometimes-fatal infection through shared syringes.

Heroin usage becomes addiction when a tolerance to the drug is built up. This means the potential addict will have to increase the dosage to experience the same "rush". Tolerance also means that the body has assimilated the drug and will suffer withdrawal without it. Now the drug is needed not only by the mind craving the high but also the body.


And this one is the best:
http://www.michaelshouse.com/heroin-addiction/effects-of-heroin.html
The social upheaval effect is the most damaging on others around the person. So in that respect providing prescribed Heroin might be a reasonable idea. But if that gets used to hook others, or is onsold on the blackmarket then it is increasing the destruction of life.

Also from what I've noticed druggy's are the most selfish people in existance. Generalisation I know, but that's cause it's generally the case.

Although from reading all this, I think amphetamines are worse in many ways. But heroin is worse in many ways too


Sounds like a text book expert to me!?

Many folk reach the lowest pit of despair using drugs and manage to 'break on through to the other side'........binning the habit and leading full and productive lives, turning them into criminals removes any chance of rehabilitation rendering your arguments moot. The collective reduction of harm to the wider community can only come from the removal of criminal enterprises feeding off the addicts and utilising health services and not the courts to treat what is after all a medical problem. If society and governments are to be taken seriously the subject of alcohol, tobacco [and food?] abuse cannot be considered separately to generic drug abuse-they are essentially the same problem.

[Mikkel]

That is not the most detrimental long term effect. The reason societies panic over injected heroin is that there is a high risk of sudden death from overdose.
I told someone this once and their non using mates who thought experimenting was amusing, a few weeks later the experimenter was dead from heroin OD! That was not a nice I told you so. It was the worst kind.

Honestly, it's not the ODers that cause the most collateral damage to the rest of the society. A sudden death is a shock for friends and family - but I firmly believe the emotional damage racked up over a decade of seeing a loved one in the throes of substance abuse would outweigh that by far. As such, I dare say that ODing is not the issue here.

Nonetheless, the risk of ODing is much larger using uncontrolled street heroin than using a controlled substance.


Also it actually is neurotoxic. Insofar as it does permanent damage to the brains natural endorphin system (the chemical system that keeps you a bit bouncy and feeling satisfied). The brain stops making endorphins - sometimes permanently.

To me that sounds like the description of the effects of meth-amphetamine. Please provide a reference showing that heroin does indeed cause irreversible brain damage.


The endorphin system is also affected by alcohol use and to a lesser degree cannabis. Some peoples endorphin production can recover - others never does.... giving them good cause to continue use in order just to feel normal.

There's a difference between a permanent effect and an effect caused by accumulation of psycho-active substances in your bloodstream over time. (e.g. everyday use of cannabis, severe alcoholism)
An addiction, no matter what to, is not brain damage in and off itself.

[Mikkel]

Every man, woman or child I have ever known who has taken a drug "hobby" and turned it into a habit has quickly turned into a cunt of a person, seen it happen dozens of times, dozens of drugs, lived amongst it and around it.

And yeah, I see people claim heroin is healthy, Means nothing to me, I've seen the damage done.

Instead of supplementing their habit we would be better off sending them to some remote location to break their habit.

And then shoot the fucks for sport.

If you dance with the devil, He gets to fuck you.

Starts out well, then it just turns into the most idiotic thing I've read on here for a long long time... :no:

And for the record, I haven't seen anyone here claiming heroin was ever healthy.

[vtec]

Mate, you did say it was preferable for your children, that's implying that it's not damaging. It makes a mess of people. I agree with headbanger on this one. Candor obviously knows a fair bit about it all aswell, he'll most likely come back with a reference. Maybe you could find us some evidence that the endorphin system isn't affected permanently by Heroin, cause there's always something not quite right with heroin abusers even long after they've quit and moved on. They seem hollow.

[SixPackBack]

Every man, woman or child I have ever known who has taken a drug "hobby" and turned it into a habit has quickly turned into a cunt of a person, seen it happen dozens of times, dozens of drugs, lived amongst it and around it.

And yeah, I see people claim heroin is healthy, Means nothing to me, I've seen the damage done.

Instead of supplementing their habit we would be better off sending them to some remote location to break their habit.

And then shoot the fucks for sport.

If you dance with the devil, He gets to fuck you.

Presumabley alcoholics, tobacco users and the obese deserve to be shot as sport as well............think before you post:2guns:

[Headbanger]

Didn't you call me something like a psycho or something similar a way back?

No mirrors in your house?

Don't know, don't care.

All the mirrors in my house have an incredibly good looking fat guy staring out,Looks like a cool fucker.

[Crasherfromwayback]

All the mirrors in my house have an incredibly good looking fat guy staring out,Looks like a cool fucker.

Do you live in a fun park?

[Headbanger]

Presumably alcoholics, tobacco users and the obese deserve to be shot as sport as well............think before you post:2guns:

Cool,make asshole assumptions and attribute them to my post. Quite clearly fat smokers were not being discussed.

[Headbanger]

Do you live in a fun park?

Funky Park.

The funkiest place in funky town.

[SixPackBack]

Cool,make asshole assumptions and attribute them to my post. Quite clearly fat smokers were not being discussed.

Clearly fat smokers are afflicted with the 'addiction gene' and in your world should be shot for sport-your words, not mine!

[Headbanger]

Clearly fat smokers are afflicted with the 'addiction gene' and in your world should be shot for sport-your words, not mine!

Yeah, You follow the same tired pattern every time. Nice one.

Read my prior post directed at you, nothing has since changed, nothing more to add if you can't comprehend it, or if you refuse to as it doesn't suit you.

[Mikkel]

Mate, you did say it was preferable for your children, that's implying that it's not damaging. It makes a mess of people. I agree with headbanger on this one. Candor obviously knows a fair bit about it all aswell, he'll most likely come back with a reference. Maybe you could find us some evidence that the endorphin system isn't affected permanently by Heroin, cause there's always something not quite right with heroin abusers even long after they've quit and moved on. They seem hollow.

Jebus, first you read my post regarding addicts loosing their politeness filter as being directed at you. Not the case.

Then you go ahead and put words in my mouth... I said heroin was preferable to P. That's not the same as saying I'm going to spoon-feed it to them.

You on the other hand agree with someone who suggests taking drug addicts and hunt them for sport? :eek5: If that isn't ugly, tell me what is.

And yes, candor makes post, with no references at all, refuting points of the earlier discussion - and then you make an about turn and assume he knows more. :scratch:

All of the references found earlier in this thread by you and me have not indicated that permanent brain damage is likely to occur through use of heroin. Quite the contrary the claims seems to be that the addiction is the worst of the consequences of heroin addiction...

I'm not saying heroin isn't some seriously bad shit, because it is. The purpose of this thread was simply to direct people's attention at the fact that Switzerland has amended decriminalisation of heroin and is giving it away for free to addicts. That and to remark that I found it positive that some places are starting to have a more sensible approach to drugs than "it's bad, so let's make it illegal". A mindset that is also being applied in this country, among so many others, and which has failed miserably at abolishing the drug problem no less.

[hospitalfood]

well, it was always going to be one of those threads..........
most people know fuck all about drugs and addiction, i stopped reading the posts about half way through.
i have taken a bit of smack in my time, lots of speed ( or P for you young ones ), lots of acid, lots of E and heaps of pot..........and most of it the hard way.

all i do these days is have a beer or 5

same old same old..........guns dont kill people, people kill people.
a serious addict will form a habit with anything........
methadone is 10 times worse than smack from a health perspective, so give them smack.

if anybody reading this has a drug problem or family members etc with drug problems and needs help or support PM me and i can give advice and put you in touch with professional alcohol and drug workers.

[Headbanger]

me, lots of speed ( or P for you young ones ),


The difference between amphetamine and methamphetamine is quite sizeable.

My extended social group dabbled heavily with the old stuff for decades, Those that parted hard with the new gear are ruined.

[RantyDave]

Other drugs in this basket are cocaine, P, crystal meth, speed, ecstacy.
You're putting MDMA in the same basket as P, Crystal Meth and Cocaine? Are you serious?

Dave

[candor]

References Mikkel. A bit heavy reading though. BTW it always was OD risk that triggered panic over heroin and gave impetus to the war on drugs in America.
Fact - During the 1960s, heroin addiction was the leading cause of death in African American men in New York City. And that trend went cross cultural and spread to all urban areas in the 1970's. The major concern definitely was about 1000's dying, moreso than about crime imo. See below article for intro.

Opioid system deficiency explanation plus a good history of the dependency / addiction problem here -
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/164/3/277
(Treating opioid dependence review)
Scroll down to "SCIENTIFIC BASIS OF OPIOID MAINTENANCE" for the guts

Opioid system in brain and alcohol - http://www.springerlink.com/content/d4k3q5pbp05kmy44/
Autopsys on dead street bums known only to drink which found high opioid levels in brain first suggested that alcoholics might truly just be addicted to their own natural opioids (heroin), that gets a production boost when they drink due to some genetic variation.

Cannabis and opioid system http://biopsychiatry.com/canopioid.htm
http://www.nature.com/tpj/journal/v6/n4/full/6500375a.html And more showing it alters opioid function in foetus as well as adult

Real complicated stuff about the genes, opioid systems in brain and how this fuels addiction is here in places if you can persevere;
http://www.wikigenes.org/e/gene/e/4988.html

A good US doco aired lately showing how experts are really heading toward a unified theory of addiction - it seems to have the same basis within the brain almost regardless of the substance one is hooked on. And yes this applies to chocolate - food addiction. The theory says the brain responds by changes in opioid and maybe dopamine system function. So to grossly simplify all drug dependents are basically hooked on natural heroin their body either produces or simply takes in ()in case of heroin adiction)when they use. Usually because drug use has resulted in a deficit - perhaps helped along by genes that make you not a great natural producer of human opioids.

Addiction workers are excited by this bevy of research now getting organised as it means addiction is a biolofgical physical based disease (caused by brain imbalances) not a character weakness or immorality type thing. And so physical treatments can be the easy fix in future. "A pill for every ill" but then one wonders if pharm companies fund the studies....

This is why scientists are now proposing to give the heroin substitute methadone to the amphetamine addicts, which on the face of it is illogical until you realise the brain has same underlying disorder- this in the news last week. http://www.readybb.com/watchdog/viewtopic.php?t=9699
And may also later treat alcoholics with synthetic heroin.

[Mikkel]

BTW it always was OD risk that triggered panic over heroin and gave impetus to the war on drugs in America.
Fact - During the 1960s, heroin addiction was the leading cause of death in African American men in New York City. And that trend went cross cultural and spread to all urban areas in the 1970's. The major concern definitely was about 1000's dying, moreso than about crime imo. See below article for intro.

I stand corrected.
Would you however not agree that at present there are more grievous concerns regarding drug use than immediate fatality?


Opioid system deficiency explanation plus a good history of the dependency / addiction problem here -

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/164/3/277
(Treating opioid dependence review)
Scroll down to "SCIENTIFIC BASIS OF OPIOID MAINTENANCE" for the guts

Interesting reading. There's no mention of neurotoxicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotoxicity) as such. The focus is the reduced production of endogenous opioids and how to suppress the associated withdrawal symptoms. While the article sheds light upon the neurological mechanism of addiction it does not suggest that permanent neurological damage is a necessary consequence of heroin abuse, rather that medicinal support during the withdrawal phase is non-trivial. (Opioid replacement through other compounds such as methadone).


Opioid system in brain and alcohol - http://www.springerlink.com/content/d4k3q5pbp05kmy44/
Autopsys on dead street bums known only to drink which found high opioid levels in brain first suggested that alcoholics might truly just be addicted to their own natural opioids (heroin), that gets a production boost when they drink due to some genetic variation.

Cannabis and opioid system http://biopsychiatry.com/canopioid.htm
http://www.nature.com/tpj/journal/v6/n4/full/6500375a.html And more showing it alters opioid function in foetus as well as adult

Real complicated stuff about the genes, opioid systems in brain and how this fuels addiction is here in places if you can persevere;
http://www.wikigenes.org/e/gene/e/4988.html

Good links, but I won't be reading all of it. Especially that last one would take a while to get your head around. :)
Now this is something I didn't dare hope for when I requested references, thanks! :niceone:


A good US doco aired lately showing how experts are really heading toward a unified theory of addiction - it seems to have the same basis within the brain almost regardless of the substance one is hooked on. And yes this applies to chocolate - food addictyion. The theory says the brain responds by changes in opioid and maybe dopamine system function. So to grossly simplify all drug dependents are basically hooked on natural heroin their body either produces or simply takes in ()in case of heroin adiction)when they use. Usually because drug use has resulted in a deficit - perhaps helped along by genes that make you not a great natural producer of human opioids.

The same effect is also seen in people who exercise a lot. They actually get addicted to it...


This is why scientists are now proposing to give the heroin substitute methadone to the amphetamine addicts, which on the face of it is illogical until you realise the brain has same underlying disorder- this in the news last week. And may also later treat alcoholics with synthetic heroin.

While a substantial part of the addictive mechanism may be identical from one drug to another, that doesn't mean that their neurological mechanism and effects are even remotely similar.
E.g. methamphetamine overloads the dopamine system causing irreparable damage...

[candor]

I stand corrected.
Would you however not agree that at present there are more grievous concerns regarding drug use than immediate fatality?
the article... does not suggest that permanent neurological damage is a necessary consequence of heroin abuse.

While a substantial part of the addictive mechanism may be identical from one drug to another, that doesn't mean that their neurological mechanism and effects are even remotely similar.
E.g. methamphetamine overloads the dopamine system causing irreparable damage...

Yes I'd agree other social impacts have steamed ahead but that depends on context. I used the word neurotoxic loosely in the sense of harming brain function and altering anatomy (neurotransmitter production) - not to mean cell destruction so stand corrected.

The article may not suggest the functional damage in neurotransmission from heroin is permanent, but much anecdotal evidence from reliable recovered functional & educated addicts (taking methadone) self reports re their repeated past dogged attempts to go drug free entailing years of martyrlike suffering (depression ruled out) has me buying their conclusion about those individuals permanently disrupted brain function (when in unmedicated state). And their speculation this may be the case for many, and a good explanation for the high relapse rate of heroin (also methadone) users who try to stop.

Agreed that the neurological mechanism and effects may not be similar for all drugs. The research is at baby stage and given there are hundreds of neurotransmitters with extremely complex interactions the puzzle isn't likely to get definitive answers soon. Still the similarity offindings fordifferent drugs is interesting. When I studied psychopharmacology I was annoyed to learn we only as yet have researched and understand about 1% or something of what goes on. It's the most complicated functioning electrical organ.

There is actually research to show that the damage from dopamine overflow with meth can be repaired. You just might need more than a lifetime to see the repair. Everyones different. 2 people can use the same way the same time and one is OK within a few mths, while another still feels icky after years.

[Mikkel]

The article may not suggest the functional damage in neurotransmission from heroin is permanent, but much anecdotal evidence from reliable recovered functional & educated addicts (taking methadone) self reports re their repeated past dogged attempts to go drug free entailing years of martyrlike suffering (depression ruled out) has me buying their conclusion about those individuals permanently disrupted brain function (when in unmedicated state). And their speculation this may be the case for many, and a good explanation for the high relapse rate of heroin (also methadone) users who try to stop.

While I have no doubt that prolonged use of heroin will indeed leave significant changes to the user, I just find it important to establish what is attributable to the drug itself and what is caused by secondary effects (e.g. infections from dirty syringes) that goes along with the typical addictive behaviour.

The pure psychological impact from experiencing the extreme highs and lows of heroin addiction is more than likely to set it's mark on your personality. Just like some soldiers experiencing atrocities during war have significant psychological issues regarding settling into normal life when off-duty.


Agreed that the neurological mechanism and effects may not be similar for all drugs. The research is at baby stage and given there are hundreds of neurotransmitters with extremely complex interactions the puzzle isn't likely to get definitive answers soon. Still the similarity offindings fordifferent drugs is interesting. When I studied psychopharmacology I was annoyed to learn we only as yet have researched and understand about 1% or something of what goes on. It's the most complicated functioning electrical organ.

There is actually research to show that the damage from dopamine overflow with meth can be repaired. You just might need more than a lifetime to see the repair. Everyones different. 2 people can use the same way the same time and one is OK within a few mths, while another still feels icky after years.

I dare say that decriminalisation of drugs would make it easier to get research funding for such subjects.
In order to solve a problem you have to accept that there is a problem, then relate to it... not just forbid and ignore it.

[marioc]

Heroin is opiate based is it not?

[MisterD]

Heroin is opiate based is it not?

Google is your friend (http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/heroin/opiates.htm)

[alley cat]

If you dance with the devil, He gets to fuck you.

Oh well lets hope hes good looking then eh:rockon: