Police news release - "Matching rider skills to their bikes"

[Anarkist]

1:09pm 3 December 2008

The Coromandel and Hauraki Districts have spectacular views and vistas and one of the best ways to see the sights is by motorcycle but this terrain can be very unforgiving if you find yourself involved in a crash.

Police Eastern Waikato Area Commander, Inspector Glenn Dunbier, said over the past three years 50 per cent of New Zealand's ACC injury claims involving motorcycles originated from the Thames- Coromandel and Hauraki District Council areas.

"Over this period motorcycle injuries cost the country approximately $3.2 million dollars, and of that about $2.2 million dollars originated from claims in our area."

Analysis of the crashes shows that while some local residents were involved by and large most injury claimants came from Auckland, the Waikato or Bay of Plenty.

"Across the country more people are returning to riding motorcycles both as a more economical form of transport or as a lifestyle change," said Mr Dunbier.

"Anecdotally we know most of the crashes involved day trippers and people on bike runs visiting the Thames- Coromandel and Hauraki Districts."

One of the problems identified by crash investigators is that the cognitive skill level of the new or returning riders does not match the size and power of today's motorcycles.

"In other words, new bikes are too large and powerful for them to ride safely, particularly around the Coromandel's roads.

"Our environment is very unforgiving. Falling off a bike on a country road a rider may slide on to the grass verge and be relatively unscathed. But on Coromandel roads we have trees, bridges, dirt banks and seawalls which means our crashes usually result in serious injury or death" said Mr Dunbier.

To that end Eastern Waikato Police are working with partner agencies such as local governments, roading engineers and road safety educators to highlight the issue.

"And of course there'll be an enforcement element as we increase our presence placing emphasis on speed, alcohol and compliance of both vehicles and riders' licences.

"For a Police officer fatal crashes are one of the worst jobs to go to. Not only is there the trauma at the scene, but shocked witnesses to interview and grieving family to inform. This campaign is all about avoiding that and reducing our road trauma."

End

Source: http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release.html?id=4533

Interesting they drew some of the same conclusions here regarding people returning to motorcycling getting big bikes due to still having a full license from when they last rode.

[wbks]

Isn't it more of that people are being loonies around that road because its fun to speed on, rather than people having bikes too fast for them?

[MIXONE]

Tis an unforgiving bit of road though.Bit like the 'takas here in windyton.If you fuck up it's generally gonna hurt.

[wbks]

'Tis, I was trying to keep up with a mate (not fast, just above my 1 week on the road off mx experience level) and crossed the line on a corner with a bike coming the other way. Good thing the corner was quite big and I just went back around and the guy on the bike gave me a bad glaring look haha. Don't blame him, would do the same thing myself, now. Not a good road for inexperienced riders.

[sunhuntin]

some older riders need a reality check when they return to bikes after 30-odd years out of the saddle. its stuff like that that makes me avoid riding with ulysses at all times.
went on a toy run with them. they had a new member, an older guy whod hit his old-age crisis and got back into bikes. bought the biggest, most powerful bike in the shop. im at the end of the pack, like always. come over a short but blind hill, and heres mr big bike sitting in the ditch with his bike, which is facing the wrong way. still dont know how he did it, but am sure it could have been easily avoided had he been on a smaller cc bike. like many males, the little head led the big head into strife.

its just a shame theres no way of telling for sure how long someone has been off bikes. if there was, the cc rating could be limited, just like a l plater, but with a higher rating [say 600cc?] or thereabouts. ive got nothing wrong with riding within my limits, dunno why some people seem to struggle with it.


on another note, they mention working with various departments re: safety. whats the bet the answer will be cheesecutters?

[vgcspares]

Depending on the spin this could be good news, assuming the fuzz were to leave obviously competent riders alone .... another Tui ad, eh ?

[Taz]

Isn't it more of that people are being loonies around that road because its fun to speed on, rather than people having bikes too fast for them?

Probably. Wont be long until the speed limit on the loop is set at 80kmh?

[wbks]

Well people don't speed over 100 when theres a cop or a camera (assuming their plates are on) anyway so it wouldn't change a thing.

[Niko14]

I'm from Coro, and they're dead right it can be unforgiving road. However, having learnt to drive a car on those roads myself, I think that if you approach it with the right mental attitude it can be a great place to learn - As long as you're riding within your limits you can safely build up your skills over a really dynamic and varied landscape.

I'd also like to point out that a lot of the time it's the morons from out of town in their flash cars screaming through the corners, taking up both lanes and failing to give way at the one-way bridges that make life difficult.

[motorbyclist]

Isn't it more of that people are being loonies around that road because its fun to speed on, rather than people having bikes too fast for them?

both at the same time

mind you, the best parts of that road are the tight twisties that you can't possibly breach the 100kph limit on, which conveniently is where you want a 400 or 600 rather than litre.

any idiot can go fast in a straight line.

[Ixion]

Given the recent propensity for police officers to cause crashes ,no few of them injuring motorcyclists in the process, one could suggest that the youth and inexperience (not to mention immaturity ?) of the average police officer does not match the size and power of their police cars?

BRONZ has on a number of occasions invited the Police to contribute , either financially or through more direct input, into training and retraining schemes for motorcyclists. Those invitations that are not completely ignored are always declined. Money, mouth and so on.

We'll try again.

[Niko14]

on another note, they mention working with various departments re: safety. whats the bet the answer will be cheesecutters?

I think the truckies would be stuffed if they chucked cheesecuters in there, they struggle width-wise as it is

Narrow roads might be good for something eh? ;)

[Oscar]

Source: http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release.html?id=4533

Interesting they drew some of the same conclusions here regarding people returning to motorcycling getting big bikes due to still having a full license from when they last rode.

There was a rerun of Top Gear on the other night where a retired Senior Traffic Cop wrote in and debunked the UK's current approach to traffic safety (i.e having 1 speed camera from every 3 cars), and listed his reasons for traffic fatalities - very high on the list was "Born again Bikers".

[CookMySock]

Unfortunately its a race track, and thats what happens on race tracks. People aren't going to slow down until they learn a nasty lesson, and that is the way of it.

Steve

[Oscar]

some older riders need a reality check when they return to bikes after 30-odd years out of the saddle. its stuff like that that makes me avoid riding with ulysses at all times.
went on a toy run with them. they had a new member, an older guy whod hit his old-age crisis and got back into bikes. bought the biggest, most powerful bike in the shop. im at the end of the pack, like always. come over a short but blind hill, and heres mr big bike sitting in the ditch with his bike, which is facing the wrong way. still dont know how he did it, but am sure it could have been easily avoided had he been on a smaller cc bike. like many males, the little head led the big head into strife.

its just a shame theres no way of telling for sure how long someone has been off bikes. if there was, the cc rating could be limited, just like a l plater, but with a higher rating [say 600cc?] or thereabouts. ive got nothing wrong with riding within my limits, dunno why some people seem to struggle with it.


on another note, they mention working with various departments re: safety. whats the bet the answer will be cheesecutters?

I agree.

Often the equation goes: "In 1978, when I was 20, I sold my last bike, a CB500 Honda, so now as I turn 50, I'll get a CBR600 (because I can afford it."

Trouble is, his 500/4 made all of 35hp(?), whereas his CBR makes three times that. Of curse his reactions have in improved in the meantime...yeah right

[Oscar]

Unfortunately its a race track, and thats what happens on race tracks. People aren't going to slow down until they learn a nasty lesson, and that is the way of it.

Steve

I live just off the Raglan Road, and some Sunday mornings I swear I can hear the practice day at Philip Island. Must be those powerful Trans-Tasman winds...

[wbks]

Why is it that people all go to these roads knowing that the cops expect people like them to go there for a hoon? I don't speed much *holds katman at bay with a hot poker* but if I ever go out for a fast (for me anyway) ride, its on some secluded tight twisty road there is no traffic on and no one else seems to go there much. Not a road that is NZ wide known by bikers and cops alike as THE place to blow the cobwebs out

[The Pastor]

motorbikes are like women and money - best when they are fast

[wbks]

You try to convince the girlies that theory applies to sex?

[Oscar]

Why is it that people all go to these roads knowing that the cops expect people like them to go there for a hoon? I don't speed much *holds katman at bay with a hot poker* but if I ever go out for a fast (for me anyway) ride, its on some secluded tight twisty road there is no traffic on and no one else seems to go there much. Not a road that is NZ wide known by bikers and cops alike as THE place to blow the cobwebs out

Try the Kawhia Harbour Road to Te Anga.
Your bike will love you for it...

[wbks]

Lol which will I wear out first: The chicken strips or the rev limiter?
Twisty road or fast?

[Katman]

'Tis, I was trying to keep up with a mate (not fast, just above my 1 week on the road off mx experience level) and crossed the line on a corner with a bike coming the other way. Good thing the corner was quite big and I just went back around and the guy on the bike gave me a bad glaring look haha. Don't blame him, would do the same thing myself, now. Not a good road for inexperienced riders.

Haha??????

It's that sort of shit that kills people.

[Jantar]

Inspector Glenn Dunbier, said over the past three years 50 per cent of New Zealand's ACC injury claims involving motorcycles originated from the Thames- Coromandel and Hauraki District Council areas.

I believe this single sentence says as much about the riders as the entire remainder of the news item. This small piece of the country comprising less than 4% of the country's entire road network is responsible for 50% of all motorcycling injury accidents.

Don't blame the road, look at why so many riders go to this one area, and connect the dots. Coro GP perhaps?

[Oscar]

Lol which will I wear out first: The chicken strips or the rev limiter?
Twisty road or fast?


Twisty AND fast...
http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Kawhia+Harbour+Rd,+Kinohaku,+Waikato+3988&sll=-38.084657,174.836218&sspn=0.009644,0.021973&g=Kawhia+Harbour&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FZz4uf0dwsBrCg&ll=-38.136447,174.861145&spn=0.308383,0.703125&z=11

[MotoGirl]

"Our environment is very unforgiving. Falling off a bike on a country road a rider may slide on to the grass verge and be relatively unscathed. But on Coromandel roads we have trees, bridges, dirt banks and seawalls which means our crashes usually result in serious injury or death" said Mr Dunbier.


I'm actually pleased with this article. It addresses something that many riders plead ignorance about – the fact that pieces of the road have no room for error, which will potentially leave the rider seriously mamed or dead in the event of a crash.

Last time I rode to Coromandel I was still on a learner licence (1998) and I haven't even been to Kopu in over 12 months. Although the road is fun, it doesn't feature on my "to do" list because my life is way too valuable. If I want to share the tarmac with wanna-be racers, I'll take it to the track. I refuse to encounter them on a public road.

[roy.nz]

The coppers have a point there but also forget to mention all the car drivers who cant stay in there lane and sometimes cause our spills but its piontless trying to argue sometimes cos we dont have the numbers. But all summer weather riders and returners get used to the bike again before fanging the fuck outa it. Peace :done:
O and car drivers also need restrictions when on a restricted licence, like us no bigger than a 250cc they need no more than 1500cc and no ratary's.

[wbks]

Haha??????

It's that sort of shit that kills people.Laughing lightly at it is all I can do posting. Do you think I didn't feel guilty like a dork who shouldn't be allowed back on the road afterwards? Do you think I don't know that kind of shit kills people? Do I need to add a disclaimer to every post involving something stupid I do to make sure that you know I realize what I did? Eyeyeyeye I'm playing my own game of 21 questions here but you should get the point. I may sound too easygoing about it but what the fuck am I supposed to do, burst into tears over it?

[klingon]

Isn't it more of that people are being loonies around that road because its fun to speed on, rather than people having bikes too fast for them?

Yep. Just because a bike's capable of going fast, doesn't mean you have to ride it fast all the time.

It seems to me it's a lack of judgement that's the problem.

[slimjim]

Laughing lightly at it is all I can do posting. Do you think I didn't feel guilty like a dork who shouldn't be allowed back on the road afterwards? Do you think I don't know that kind of shit kills people? Do I need to add a disclaimer to every post involving something stupid I do to make sure that you know I realize what I did? Eyeyeyeye I'm playing my own game of 21 questions here but you should get the point. I may sound too easygoing about it but what the fuck am I supposed to do, burst into tears over it?

Grasshopper....don't get hung up....;).

gota have a Helen in all facts of life.:weep:.....

why feel guilty...you choose...that's your right...good on a...

and as for the coro loop...well many a rider has left a huge loss via riding there......R I P...

[Katman]

forget to mention all the car drivers who cant stay in there lane and sometimes cause our spills but its piontless trying to argue sometimes cos we dont have the numbers.

No. it's pointless trying to argue that one because motorcyclists are probably every bit as guilty as car drivers. (Maybe even more so.)

[Beemer]

Given the recent propensity for police officers to cause crashes, no few of them injuring motorcyclists in the process, one could suggest that the youth and inexperience (not to mention immaturity ?) of the average police officer does not match the size and power of their police cars?

I'd be inclined to agree with you there. I don't know the age you can become a cop (no interest in the job myself) but if it's say 18, then someone could be a very inexperienced driver if they joined not long after gaining their full licence. They are then put into situations where they could be involved in a chase situation or just getting to an incident in a hurry and those cop cars are not Morrie Minors! I remember on the Targa rally a few years ago when a cop overshot a corner when acting as a zero car (I think) and went into a ditch. Not to mention the cop who was seriously injured while doing a training run on a bike out the back of Wairarapa. He was going too fast for the conditions and crashed, causing injuries that ended his police career before it started.

I think this needs further investigation for riders and drivers. If someone is returning to motorcycling after an absence of more than five years, perhaps some form of graduated licence system is warranted. Or, even better, how about people learn what their limits are and ride within them until their skills match their bike's capabilities?

[Katman]

why feel guilty...you choose...that's your right...good on a...



Choose what? To endanger someone else's life?

It's his right?????

WTF?

The motorcyclist who's arm was ripped off and landed in the driver's lap on the weekend - was it his "right" to impose a lifetime of nightmares upon that woman who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

[wbks]

will you shut the fuck up I've already said how sorry I was for it and would have apoligised to the guy if I saw him again and it was something I did as a very inexperienced rider.

[slimjim]

yes indeed...courts seem to think that a vehicle driven into a crowd is worth....What...Sweet fuck all...no eye for a eye is there...so yes its his right to choose..

[Katman]

yes indeed...courts seem to think that a vehicle driven into a crowd is worth....What...Sweet fuck all...no eye for a eye is there...so yes its his right to choose..

Well that's some pretty fucked up logic.

Who gives a fuck what the courts think? It's what we, as individuals, think is morally and ethically 'our right' that really matters.

[slimjim]

what......now i know your been foolish....we...sorry only one person sit's and gives judgement in court...yet we as individuals think he or she has been soft-hearted over a death.is that morally.or even ethically right..humm...so were is we when judgement is given..no as individuals one may think as others yet still do differently..

[Katman]

what......now i know your been foolish....we...sorry only one person sit's and gives judgement in court...yet we as individuals think he or she has been soft-hearted over a death.is that morally.or even ethically right..humm...so were is we when judgement is given..no as individuals one may think as others yet still do differently..

I can't even understand your posts.

[pritch]

Often the equation goes: "In 1978, when I was 20, I sold my last bike, a CB500 Honda, so now as I turn 50, I'll get a CBR600 (because I can afford it."


I know of one such locally. He bought a much bigger bike than a CBR600 but probably no more powerful. When his wife told me of the purchase I offered some reading material I thought might be helpful to a born again rider.
"No thanks, he'll figure it out."

I mumbled something about having one third of a second on average to "figure it out..."

So in about one week flat (might have been two) he chucks it up the road.
I guess he's figured one thing out now then... :whistle:

[wbks]

I can't even understand your posts.Don't read, just skip a step and accuse him of consuming infants for breakfast

[slimjim]

will you shut the fuck up I've already said how sorry I was for it and would have apoligised to the guy if I saw him again and it was something I did as a very inexperienced rider.


lad.....you have learned a lesson in riding...that's more important.and you understood how easy it is too(cross over line)....the rider gave you the "Look"..:yes:..all said and done..

[wbks]

Yes but it seems katman would still like to give me a lecture. But I'm sure this post will act as the garlic necklace and make him prove me wrong by not giving me one.

[slimjim]

Yes but it seems katman would still like to give me a lecture. But I'm sure this post will act as the garlic necklace and make him prove me wrong by not giving me one.


hahaha..... well that's loness for ya...
an...what the fuck...life is short...

smile...think as him as your "Dear Old Grandad"..:crybaby:

[discotex]

Interesting... So the total ACC claims for motorcyclists is lower than the amount a SINGLE health board could save if they paid their bills on time....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10545910

So why are we paying a higher ACC levy for bike registrations?

[more_fasterer]

I believe this single sentence says as much about the riders as the entire remainder of the news item. This small piece of the country comprising less than 4% of the country's entire road network is responsible for 50% of all motorcycling injury accidents.

Don't blame the road, look at why so many riders go to this one area, and connect the dots. Coro GP perhaps?

Yet another bullshit statistic from the police claims a free-thinking mind. You don't seriously believe that figure do you? Surely that would mean that of all the "rider down" and "R.I.P" threads on here, every second one (on average) would be for that location??

[mstriumph]

some older riders need a reality check when they return to bikes after 30-odd years out of the saddle. its stuff like that that makes me avoid riding with ulysses at all times. .........

i'm not saying you are wrong, sunhuntin, but in all fairness you didn't take the arguement far enough

......... there are arrogant, dangerous nitwits in ALL age groups ... it would be helpful if they were all confined to one group [like ulysses] but, in my experience, there are no more of them in that group than there are in any other ....

[mctshirt]

If someone is returning to motorcycling after an absence of more than five years, perhaps some form of graduated licence system is warranted. Or, even better, how about people learn what their limits are and ride within them until their skills match their bike's capabilities?

Yeah right!

I had to buy a whole packet of Weet Bix to get my licence 30 odd years ago and I'll buy whatever my disposable income can afford!

It's not the bike causing the crashes - it's the attitude of the rider. Same attitude will hurt them on any size bike, car, boat, jetski, etc,etc,etc.

[Paul in NZ]

Well - I was going to avoid commenting BUT this is another piece of the puzzle dropping into place.

Refer to my earlier post on accident stats for bikers in NZ (yes yes I know they all lie etc etc)

You don't need to know what i do for a living but basically I talk to people... One of the 'people' I've been talking to has a responsibility for funding road safety......... as well as gathering all those stats... and yes - I talk to them at a fairly appopriate level.

NO - I don't give a fat rats bum if you want to kill yourself BUT I do care about my motorcycling and how other peoples dumb choices affect ME and mine...

Regardless of what you think - the stats showing how a certain advanced aged group are over represented in accident stats is concerning people who you REALLY don't want to be concern about your activities. There are two BIG problems.

1. the road toll must come down - it's down a long way so the next job is to target anomolies as the way to earn the next load of bonus targets.

2. An 18 year old apprentice off work for 6 weeks due to cracking up his GN250 is a bitch but no big deal to ACC - a 55 year old CEO or CFO earning $120,000pa plus off work for 6 months (acc payning 80% of the wages) is a bloody BIG deal (for ACC)

You have been warned - motorcycling will be targetted - low political impact vs big impact on the stats so stop fucking about before we are legislated off the road...

[Paul in NZ]

Oh - BTW - these are actually very NICE people and they are interested in how to resolve this

[tommygun]

The most extreme fix for the whole issue is to scrap ACC for a user pays system that applies to all if you earn $100k plus and ride in the loop. The above would seem grossly unfair to those that full within that bracket but the saying goes "do the crime, do the time" (or at least a third of it anyway in this country). The question still remains, what if it was an accident that was not the fault of the rider? It would mean that everyone would have to have a policy that covered loss of income for the victim.... Thats another TUI ad!

Putting restriction in place for returning riders would only be temp' because after those ended you would still get the same people on the same bike etc and It always cames back to the mind not the machine.

[James Deuce]

Yet another bullshit statistic from the police claims a free-thinking mind. You don't seriously believe that figure do you? Surely that would mean that of all the "rider down" and "R.I.P" threads on here, every second one (on average) would be for that location??
They are during three months of Summer. You haven't been around during the "peak" period. You may get a surprise.

[Jantar]

Yet another bullshit statistic from the police claims a free-thinking mind. You don't seriously believe that figure do you? Surely that would mean that of all the "rider down" and "R.I.P" threads on here, every second one (on average) would be for that location??


They are during three months of Summer. You haven't been around during the "peak" period. You may get a surprise.

JD, you've said it for me. :clap:

One thing to note is that this quoted statistic is from ACC on motorcycle injury accidents, not just fatals. The way to reduce fatal accidents is to target the cause of all accidents, even those that are non-injury.

[Ixion]

Oh - BTW - these are actually very NICE people and they are interested in how to resolve this

They're from the government ! They're here to help us ! :rofl: :rofl: :killingme:killingme

[Paul in NZ]

They're from the government ! They're here to help us ! :rofl: :rofl: :killingme:killingme

Actually - some of them are bloody nice people and work bloody hard to help - they just get sick of being shouted at by bloody idiots with axes to grind and greed to feed...

I work a bit with DOC and a few others - who would you trust? DOC or the fishing industry? I know who is better at manipulating the media and paying bribes...

[mctshirt]

DOC are best at shooting takahe ;)
(you did ask)

[Motu]

I wonder what the stats are for before the road was sealed,thereby making a loop? Before the road was sealed there were far fewer riders in that area - it's not so much a point in time that older riders got back on bikes,but that a previously ''not nice'' road has become a race track.Same with SH16,same with SH22,same with Kaiawa....and any other areas known to you.''Improving'' the road brings so many more unskilled riders into that particular area.

How many riders who do ''the loop'' today did it back when it was unsealed?

[dipshit]

ive got nothing wrong with riding within my limits, dunno why some people seem to struggle with it.

It's a male ego thing. Like who can drink the most piss... root the most chicks... or ride the fastest.

[Katman]

I still say the internet (and specifically site's like this) are partly responsible for the proliferation of packs of Rossi wannabes heading out on the weekend for their local MotoGP. In my day I could find one or two other idiots - these days, at short notice, you can easily get together 20 such clowns.

(Conversely, site's like this also have the ability to make huge changes for the better).

[dipshit]

I work a bit with DOC and a few others - who would you trust? DOC or the fishing industry? I know who is better at manipulating the media and paying bribes...

Likewise everyone needs to remember that BRONZ is largely about improving the image of motorcycling to the public in order to gain more political rights in the eyes of the lawmakers. Bikers Rights Organisation New Zealand.

It quite understandably doesn't like bad press and has no problem spinning bullshit of its own to achieve its goals. But perhaps in the long run this will do more harm than good.

[wbks]

I still say the internet (and specifically site's like this) are partly responsible for the proliferation of packs of Rossi wannabes heading out on the weekend for their local MotoGP. In my day I could find one or two other idiots - these days, at short notice, you can easily get together 20 such clowns.-Maybe, but there are a lot more bikes and people now and you can buy a bike virtually bulletproof and maintenance free for 20k. My dad has mentioned how back in his day a fast bike needed someone reasonably mechanically minded with lots of time to tinker to keep it running and would brag of 230k maxed out. Bit different now, eh. Availability.


(Conversely, site's like this also have the ability to make huge changes for the better).-The story's here and videos posted of bike crashes has stopped me from speeding on the road for a while. I'm now about to buy a van and other stuff to start racing streetstock, instead. Point proven.

[Ocean1]

Oh - BTW - these are actually very NICE people and they are interested in how to resolve this

Sorry Paul, but tell your friends, with the greatest possible respect, to mind their own bloody business.


scrap ACC

Yup, just 'cause auntie decided everyone was just as equal as the next dude don't make it so. Jeez the f'kin gall of it, stealing my money on the pretense of "lookin' after me when I need it". You figure anyone's getting a good deal there? Fookin' protectionism's what it is.

[hospitalfood]

to many to read, but lets be fucking honest boys and girls............
the coro is a race track, look at all the coro loop runs........
of course there will be crashes !!!!!
i dont for a minute believe it is all about old riders getting back on bikes.

[PCTC]

I am what you would call an oldie but instead of returning to bikeing I am doing it for the first time 7 months an am now on a SV1000 I have no ego problems an a woman to live for so I take no chances I guess a lot of crashes could be avoided if you backed off and just rode for pleasure and stopped trying to show off I probably sound like an old fart but ride to the conditions

[23226]

I rode ex blenheim through to taupo->matamata -> onto the thames highway ( 27 ?) this evening, I encountered an atrocious left hand section that dropped about a foot / 300mm for several meters, it also had the the added bonus of tramlining the bike futher off the road into no mans land , this is in an area where the works gravels spreading units seemed to have every OTHER section of those roads under "improvement plans" .

Who are they trying to kid here ?

Sigh and the endless base course , don' t get me started.

Why don't they work on sections such as the one i encountered and just close the road if need to be and get the damn thing fixed instead of complaining about older riders returning to larger bikes.

Why are section of SH1 northbound towards bombay ex the Thames highway running without the lights switched on ?

I am pissed off with there spouting about how we need to check ourselves.

If the roads, lights and associated works were fit for basic safety requirements perhaps things would be a little safer in that area in general.

end of rant.:angry::2guns:

[Ocean1]

If the roads, lights and associated works were fit for basic safety requirements perhaps things would be a little safer in that area in general.


No, they're right, it is your choice, and the outcome your fault.

I'm just saying you need to pay the bill for your own risk selection policy. As long as "they" pay the butcher's bill they figure they've got the right to dictate that choice.

They're wrong.

[Paul in NZ]

Sorry Paul, but tell your friends, with the greatest possible respect, to mind their own bloody business.



Yup, just 'cause auntie decided everyone was just as equal as the next dude don't make it so. Jeez the f'kin gall of it, stealing my money on the pretense of "lookin' after me when I need it". You figure anyone's getting a good deal there? Fookin' protectionism's what it is.

Um - they are not my friends - I do a little business with them and of course I'd like to do more... I'm reporting conversations with them in an effort to throw some light onto the topic. I couldn't really car a wit about the inventive ways we find to kill ourselves other than when it makes my riding more expensive.

Basically - this IS their business, they are responsible for road safety funding and effectively own the roads, you are playing in their playground and on their property, they MAKE the rules, how is this not their business?

I do agree with your second point - there should be an opt out clause for ACC etc. However the other side of that is when you need help and the ambulance turns up they may just say - sorry chum, none of our business, sort yerself out...

[mctshirt]

On the bright side does this mean if I stay away from the Thames- Coromandel and Hauraki District Council area I decrease my chance off an injury related accident by 50% :clap:

[davereid]

I always laugh when I see motorcyclists proposing stricter rules for "other" motorcyclists.

Its the very attitude that will see us all in cars.

Cars are getting safer and safer.

Some manufacturers (like Volvo for example) say they are on target to get cars so safe you will not die, or indeed suffer serious injury in any crashes below the legal speed limit.

Very soon, certainly within 20 years, virtually the only people dying on the roads will be on two wheels.

No amount of helmets, pink shiny jackets, headlight laws will help.

Only banning motorcycles will help.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
At the Volvo Car Corporation, the vision is to design cars that should not crash.

In the shorter perspective the aim is that by 2020 no-one should be killed or injured in a Volvo.

"We don't accept that people lose their lives in airplane accidents, so why should we regard car accidents as inevitable?" says Jan Ivarsson, head of Safety Strategy at the Volvo Car Corporation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[dipshit]

I always laugh when I see motorcyclists proposing stricter rules for "other" motorcyclists.

Its the very attitude that will see us all in cars.


Errrr... no... you have kind of outlined it quite nicely below.



Cars are getting safer and safer.

Some manufacturers (like Volvo for example) say they are on target to get cars so safe you will not die, or indeed suffer serious injury in any crashes below the legal speed limit.

Very soon, certainly within 20 years, virtually the only people dying on the roads will be on two wheels.

No amount of helmets, pink shiny jackets, headlight laws will help.

Only banning motorcycles will help.


Shit for brains motorcyclists that can't see this coming will be our undoing.

[MarkH]

went on a toy run with them. they had a new member, an older guy whod hit his old-age crisis and got back into bikes. bought the biggest, most powerful bike in the shop. im at the end of the pack, like always. come over a short but blind hill, and heres mr big bike sitting in the ditch with his bike, which is facing the wrong way. still dont know how he did it, but am sure it could have been easily avoided had he been on a smaller cc bike. like many males, the little head led the big head into strife.

What if the sort of person that would buy the biggest, most powerful bike in the shop is also the sort of person that would push the limits too far for their skill level? Maybe this guy would also have crashed a 250cc in the same situation.

I recently got back into biking after around 20 years absence - I chose a 400cc scooter instead of a 750cc+ sports bike. I feared that I would go too fast on a sports bike and lose my license, but it is also possible I could have gone too fast into a corner and killed myself. I am enjoying my return to biking and have put over 9000kms on my scooter in less than 4 months.
Last Saturday I rode from Auckland to Kopu, Thames, Coromandel, Whitianga, Kopu, Auckland. I took it easy and enjoyed the twisties at speeds below the legal limit and within my scooter's capabilities. It was great and I would happily do the loop again (maybe other direction). I just went off for the ride by myself and didn't have to worry about keeping up with anyone else, I had enough time and was in no hurry.

I have also been to a RRRS course and bought the book "Total Control" by Lee Parks (Which I haven't read yet :Oops:). It occurs to me that there are people that just go out and by a big fast bike and ride it without any thought of caution, despite inexperience or several decades since previous experience. I don't know if you can do much to combat their attitude any more than you can change the attitude of anyone else that will always push their vehicle beyond its capability or their own capability.

[Bass]

No, they're right, it is your choice, and the outcome your fault.

I'm just saying you need to pay the bill for your own risk selection policy. As long as "they" pay the butcher's bill they figure they've got the right to dictate that choice.

They're wrong.

Why are they wrong?
I tend to agree with the "set your own risk level, but pay for the consequences" policy, but I've also always gone with the old "He who pays the piper calls the tune" thing.
So if I am to avoid hypocracy, as long as I am ready to accept ACC, I cede to them the right to dictate (at least some of) the rules

[Conquiztador]

With a $1 billion blowout in ACC the $3 mill for bikers is not the problem.

[Squiggles]

The problem isnt with the bikes, but with the rider when they return... Several have commented here saying how they worked their way back into riding, cleaning off the rust... They now share the same risk as the rest of us. Those who find strife will be the ones that dont take the time to get back into it, and arent as capable as they once may have been. They go on that quick group ride a weekend early, before they're back up to speed, and we have problems.

[Squiggles]

With a $1 billion blowout in ACC the $3 mill for bikers is not the problem.

But what the $3 mill represents is.

[MarkH]

You try to convince the girlies that theory applies to sex?

Just tell 'em you are like the worlds best racer - you always come first!

[davereid]

...one could suggest that the youth and inexperience (not to mention immaturity ?) of the average police officer does not match the size and power of their police cars? ...

Surely Not True !

[23226]

No, they're right, it is your choice, and the outcome your fault.

I'm just saying you need to pay the bill for your own risk selection policy. As long as "they" pay the butcher's bill they figure they've got the right to dictate that choice.

They're wrong.

Whilst I am not seeking a floodlit racetrack like surface, I still think there is an inherent problem with specifying that we require more shit roads that fall apart, slump and generally require constant total resurfacing rather than paying more upfront and getting more durable less liable to subside roads.

So its essentially : user pays and likes it no matter the lack of standards or inconsistent adherence to them by the units purportedly responsible for road maintenance and improvement ?

Or think your riding to the conditions right up until you meet an untamed road anomaly ( caused by the above ) whilst getting three screens worths of bug build up and your eyeballs highbeam xenoned to death by a car , oh yeah and like it too as that was your choice as well. :laugh:

[Oscar]

Why are they wrong?
I tend to agree with the "set your own risk level, but pay for the consequences" policy, but I've also always gone with the old "He who pays the piper calls the tune" thing.
So if I am to avoid hypocracy, as long as I am ready to accept ACC, I cede to them the right to dictate (at least some of) the rules

There is a bigger picture though.
It's "Motorcycles as a Public Health Issue" schtick.

It's where the authorities react to the perceived carnage on our roads with things like stricter licensing laws and horsepower limits. These are very likely in fact, as they have been applied overseas...

[Bass]

There is a bigger picture though.
It's "Motorcycles as a Public Health Issue" schtick.

It's where the authorities react to the perceived carnage on our roads with things like stricter licensing laws and horsepower limits. These are very likely in fact, as they have been applied overseas...

What I said about paying for the consequences, I meant in the widest sense.
Your comments are in line with what Katman has been preaching for ages and I agree with both of you.
However, there is an element in our ranks who just don't care about the consequences of their actions to motorcycling as a whole, who in fact strongly resist any thought of being held to account for it.
I think that stricter legislation is an entirely fair response to that attitude. I don't welcome it in the least, but then I have gone adventure riding, which on the face of it appears to be a much safer activity. Consequently I have some hope that the new legislation brought in to counter the shortsighted idiots, won't affect me too badly.

Sort of like the old latin adage "Coitus interruptus asbestos" - Fuck you mate, I'm fireproof

[Oscar]

What I said about paying for the consequences, I meant in the widest sense.
Your comments are in line with what Katman has been preaching for ages and I agree with both of you.
However, there is an element in our ranks who just don't care about the consequences of their actions to motorcycling as a whole, who in fact strongly resist any thought of being held to account for it.
I think that stricter legislation is an entirely fair response to that attitude. I don't welcome it in the least, but then I have gone adventure riding, which on the face of it appears to be a much safer activity. Consequently I have some hope that the new legislation brought in to counter the shortsighted idiots, won't affect me too badly.

Sort of like the old latin adage "Coitus interruptus asbestos" - Fuck you mate, I'm fireproof

The problem with preaching the message is that this assumes that we are a coherent group. We're not.

[davebullet]

My simple rule in all scenarios is to stay well inside your lane / to the left of the centre line.

It would be good to know out of the Waikato statistics, what the split of accidents was between:
1. No other vehicle involved (a lone bin)
2. Head on
3. Mechanical failure
4. Sudden road hazard

Dave.

[Swoop]

On the bright side does this mean if I stay away from the Thames- Coromandel and Hauraki District Council area I decrease my chance off an injury related accident by 50% :clap:
Yes.
You will also be sent a 50% refund of your ACC levy because you do not ride on those roads...:done:

[cheshirecat]

I agree.

Often the equation goes: "In 1978, when I was 20, I sold my last bike, a CB500 Honda, so now as I turn 50, I'll get a CBR600 (because I can afford it."

Trouble is, his 500/4 made all of 35hp(?), whereas his CBR makes three times that. Of curse his reactions have in improved in the meantime...yeah right

As a returning oldie, I'd like to add my two cents or farthings. Aside from engine power and throttle response, some of the biggest changes are greatly improved handling, brakes which actually work in the wet and tyre adhesion. This may give an undue feeling of security and peaceful bliss when the old blunderbus would have unraveled every wire secured bolt and shaken you stupid at the same speed. I did get a VF500 before my VFRer and very pleased I did. My riding envelope is quite 'constrained' mainly because of the agricultural condition of the roads (state highway one is no more than a UK B road with a dodgy surface) and the inane give way to the right rules which defy all international road logic - I mean how on earth can an oncoming vehicle crossing the center line across you have right of way? That's why God invented traffic lights and roundabouts.

[Bass]

The problem with preaching the message is that this assumes that we are a coherent group. We're not.

Very true, not even vaguely coherent. However, I don't think that's a good reason for doing nothing and there are many groups out there that are doing something.
Bronz is at it all the time.
Last year, the Auckland branch of Ulysses received the annual LTNZ safety award for their work in the "Lookout for Motorcycles" campaign.
I think that you and I discussing it the way that we are in here and Katman on his soapbox in the corner, are just some examples of what the people who care, are actually doing.
The overriding concern is of course that it may not be enough because as KM has said, the politicians surely view us as a coherent group, regardless of the facts.
What else do you suggest that we do? (genuine question)

[Oscar]

Very true, not even vaguely coherent. However, I don't think that's a good reason for doing nothing and there are many groups out there that are doing something.
Bronz is at it all the time.
Last year, the Auckland branch of Ulysses received the annual LTNZ safety award for their work in the "Lookout for Motorcycles" campaign.
I think that you and I discussing it the way that we are in here and Katman on his soapbox in the corner, are just some examples of what the people who care, are actually doing.
The overriding concern is of course that it may not be enough because as KM has said, the politicians surely view us as a coherent group, regardless of the facts.
What else do you suggest that we do? (genuine question)

Frankly, I despair.
God knows I've done my bit in the past, through motorcycle clubs and rider training...

The fact is that no matter what you or I do in our own way, is almost inevitably doomed to be for naught when some testosterone fueled dickwad pulls a wheelie on the motorway or some hairy goit pulls the muffler off of a cruiser.

[Katman]

The fact is that no matter what you or I do in our own way, is almost inevitably doomed to be for naught when some testosterone fueled dickwad pulls a wheelie on the motorway or some hairy goit pulls the muffler off of a cruiser.

I think the very least we can do is be seen to be trying to bring about a change for the better by our own volition.

As the number that support the message grows, who knows what may be achieved.

If we sit back and do nothing though, we're fucked.

We have to try and get rid of the "I couldn't give a fuck what you think about my riding" attitude.

[wbks]

Katman, this isn't a dig, it's an honest question. What do you think will change if things carry on the way they are at this time?

[alanzs]

Seems like riding motorcycles is dangerous...

[Oscar]

I think the very least we can do is be seen to be trying to bring about a change for the better by our own volition.

As the number that support the message grows, who knows what may be achieved.

If we sit back and do nothing though, we're fucked.

We have to try and get rid of the "I couldn't give a fuck what you think about my riding" attitude.

Sorry, my last post was a bit of a downer.

I do what I can - the restrictors went back in the Staintunes and I try to ride responsibly. I'm not sure what I can do personally "I couldn't give a fuck what you think about my riding" crowd - perhaps only Darwin has the answer...

[Badjelly]

...the stats showing how a certain advanced aged group are over represented in accident stats is concerning people who you REALLY don't want to be concerned...

Is it true that those "of advanced age" are overrepresented in accident stats? What, exactly, do you mean by "overrepresented"? Does the number of accidents (per rider-kilometre or whatever) increase with age?

I know that there has been an increase in accidents in older riders, but I thought that was mainly because there were more older riders and fewer younger ones than there used to be.

[Katman]

I'm not sure what I can do personally "I couldn't give a fuck what you think about my riding" crowd - perhaps only Darwin has the answer...

I think we're making a start right here.

Getting the message across that the "I couldn't give a fuck" attitude is precisely what is threatening the future of our motorcycling freedom is at the very foundation of making a change for the better.

[Bass]

Frankly, I despair.
God knows I've done my bit in the past, through motorcycle clubs and rider training...

The fact is that no matter what you or I do in our own way, is almost inevitably doomed to be for naught when some testosterone fueled dickwad pulls a wheelie on the motorway or some hairy goit pulls the muffler off of a cruiser.

I hear you but I actually don't think it's that hopeless.
I believe that what we need to achieve is an improvement in the PREVAILING view of our activity. We will never reach everybody and the Dickwads and the Goits will always be with us - it's inherent in the nature of our machinery; but lately, for every cager that does their level best to stop me from passing, I find there are 2 who pull over and help me through, especially if I don't try and force the issue.
I also think that a "Thanks mate" wave of aknowledgement as I barrel past, goes a long way to reinforcing that sort of interaction which is actually making it safer for all concerned.

If enough of us are overtly safe and courteous, it can sway public opinion despite the influence of the dicks - look at the change in attitude toward drunk driving over the last 2 decades

[Bass]

Katman, this isn't a dig, it's an honest question. What do you think will change if things carry on the way they are at this time?

This has been effectively answered by Oscar earlier in this thread but the message will stand repeating.

What concerns most of us who are preaching a bit more self control is that if we don't do it ourselves, then the politicians and civil servants will do it for us. We will be faced with regulations restricting the capacity of motorcycles (200 cc and less is not unknown overseas) and ever more punitive licencing/registration charges for starters.
Once the authorities get started down that track, it's almost impossible to put a stop to it.

[Jantar]

...I know that there has been an increase in accidents in older riders, but I thought that was mainly because there were more older riders and fewer younger ones than there used to be.

Hey! DO NOT let facts get in way of statistics. :bash:

[Oscar]

Is it true that those "of advanced age" are overrepresented in accident stats? What, exactly, do you mean by "overrepresented"? Does the number of accidents (per rider-kilometre or whatever) increase with age?

I know that there has been an increase in accidents in older riders, but I thought that was mainly because there were more older riders and fewer younger ones than there used to be.

The scariest statistic was one I saw six or seven years ago.
It said the average age of a motorcycle fatality had risen by 10 years (from about 29) in the previous decade.

[Oscar]

I hear you but I actually don't think it's that hopeless.
I believe that what we need to achieve is an improvement in the PREVAILING view of our activity. We will never reach everybody and the Dickwads and the Goits will always be with us - it's inherent in the nature of our machinery; but lately, for every cager that does their level best to stop me from passing, I find there are 2 who pull over and help me through, especially if I don't try and force the issue.
I also think that a "Thanks mate" wave of aknowledgement as I barrel past, goes a long way to reinforcing that sort of interaction which is actually making it safer for all concerned.

If enough of us are overtly safe and courteous, it can sway public opinion despite the influence of the dicks - look at the change in attitude toward drunk driving over the last 2 decades


I make a point of smiling and waving when I'm on my bike, particularly at kids, but also at drivers who pull over slightly when I'm passing, that sort of thing. What we have to work on is the idjut on the bike down the road passing down the white line against traffic..

[Bass]

I make a point of smiling and waving when I'm on my bike, particularly at kids, but also at drivers who pull over slightly when I'm passing, that sort of thing. What we have to work on is the idjut on the bike down the road passing down the white line against traffic..

Sad but true - looks like we're here for the long haul then.

[Ixion]

Well, statistical conclusions are only as good as the underlying data. (http://www.mot.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf)

And if the data used by LTNZ to draw their conclusion that the road toll is all down to us old buffers is represented by that available on their web site, then the conclusions are very shonky indeed.

For a start, there's a lot of pretty important stuff missing. The LTNZ travel survey, touted as a major tool , completely ignores motorcycle travel. We don't figure at all!

Many of the other reports and tables ignore motorcycles altogether, or lump us in with trucks!

The "Crash statistics for motorcycles 2007" is a highly dodgy document, of very little statistical value.

However, we may examine it a little:

It shows breakdown of crashes, fatal and injury, by age group

(15-19) 2 fatal and 251 injury
(20-24) 5 fatal 174 "
(25-29) 1 121
(30-39) 15 238
(40+ ) 17 504

Now, let us assess these figures, against the background of the cry that senile old bikers are crashing left right and centre

First: The figures are deliberately misleading. For every other age group the breakdown is in 5 or 10 year bands. But ALL riders over 40 are lumped together.
Naturally that column is higher! When we recast it more legitimately we see

(15-40) 23 fatal, 884 injury
(40 + ) 17 504

Now the old buffers don't look so bad, do they ! Even then , it discriminates against the older rider, since 15 to 40 is 25 years and 40 + 25 would be 65. Plenty of riders older than 65, so the 40+ group still has a wider age range than the under 40 group.

Moreover, the Ministry cunningly skew the picture by quoting injuries rather than fatalities. Now bike injury figures will always be disproportionately high because (a) falling off a bike in even a minor way probably hurts somewhat; (b) when a rider does fall off some helpful soul always wants to call an ambulance. As soon as that happens it goes down as an injury crash, even if the conclusion is "You're OK mate, just a bit shaken"

Moreover, nowhere is there any indication of the make up of the rider group by age. Perhaps 40+ (yeah, you 41 year olds are considered 'older riders' by LTNZ) make up the majority of riders.

Certainly my observation is that the age groups are well skewed. There's quite a lot of young fellows, up to mid twenties. And quite a lot of 40+. Not many in between. They're to busy with families and too cash strapped. So just on the demographics we would expect to see the sort of picture we do.

So the "it's all down to old fools who can't control their bikes" looks to be a conclusion that (on the basis of published data - LTNZ may have more that they're not revealing , but I always suspect anything based on secret data ) that is hard to support. A predetermined conclusion , in fact, looking for a bit of sensationalism to justify itself.

What can be shown from the Ministry's own figures is that only a little over half (54 %) of the crashes were by full licence holders. One might argue (with a lot more validity) that the actual problem is inexperience, given that there are (I think - I'm open to the Ministry providing data to show me wrong) a lot more clas 6 licences in the country than 6L and 6R combined.


Nice folk indeed. I sense a witchhunt coming on.

[cheshirecat]

I think we're making a start right here.

Getting the message across that the "I couldn't give a fuck" attitude is precisely what is threatening the future of our motorcycling freedom is at the very foundation of making a change for the better.

Just a thought. We are always going to get good guy bad guy incidents on the roads, but occasionally things go well, the odd car who lets you in or stops and let you go. These I acknowledge with a wave especially those who let me pass and pass in a civilised manner. I think if one can reciprocate a little curtesy it makes their day, like that biker who waved at the kid in the back of car in another thread.

I think this makes a difference, and cars seeing bikers wave to each other.
A rider just injures themselves, but get a group of drunk hoons or warward ute!

[James Deuce]

A rider just injures themselves, but get a group of drunk hoons or warward ute!

No they don't. In 2003 a rider doing a runner from the cops had a head on with a car near Otaika and killed the passenger in the car on the way through the front windscreen and out the back. That's just one example, and I can dig up more. It doesn't matter that the dude was a drug crazed crim either, because it's quite usual for people to travel vastly quicker than the late unlamented Mr Brunton, and quite usual for people to lack the necessary situational awareness to even consider riding everywhere at warp speed.

It's not always the car's fault. Motorcyclists do hurt people other than themselves. There is no justification for consistently and continually flouting NZ's traffic regs.

The opportunities to enjoy your motorcycle and learn your own limits in a controlled situation are vastly more numerous than ever before. Hill Climbs, Sprints, Track Days, Rider education days at the track, riding courses run by people like RRRS, all huge fun in different ways.

I can't quite get why motorcyclists think the rules just don't apply. Like the utterly stupid little monkey on a CBR250rr on the way home tonight, who did license losing speeds past a speed camera that went off. O, how I laughed.

[Ocean1]

Um - they are not my friends - I do a little business with them and of course I'd like to do more... I'm reporting conversations with them in an effort to throw some light onto the topic. I couldn't really car a wit about the inventive ways we find to kill ourselves other than when it makes my riding more expensive.

Basically - this IS their business, they are responsible for road safety funding and effectively own the roads, you are playing in their playground and on their property, they MAKE the rules, how is this not their business?

I do agree with your second point - there should be an opt out clause for ACC etc. However the other side of that is when you need help and the ambulance turns up they may just say - sorry chum, none of our business, sort yerself out...

That's sorta my first point too, the effective ownership thing relies on the assumed liability for damages inferred by ACC. I never agreed to sign away responsibility for my actions. Damned if I'll allow the assumptiomn that I have to change the decisions I make.

And I'm perfectly happy to pay the cost of those decisions.

[Ocean1]

So if I am to avoid hypocracy, as long as I am ready to accept ACC, I cede to them the right to dictate (at least some of) the rules

Why? I didn't ask for it, but if they're charging me for it anyway why shouldn't I accept the service?

[Ocean1]

Whilst I am not seeking a floodlit racetrack like surface, I still think there is an inherent problem with specifying that we require more shit roads that fall apart, slump and generally require constant total resurfacing rather than paying more upfront and getting more durable less liable to subside roads.

So its essentially : user pays and likes it no matter the lack of standards or inconsistent adherence to them by the units purportedly responsible for road maintenance and improvement ?

Or think your riding to the conditions right up until you meet an untamed road anomaly ( caused by the above ) whilst getting three screens worths of bug build up and your eyeballs highbeam xenoned to death by a car , oh yeah and like it too as that was your choice as well. :laugh:

P'raps, there's unfortunate design in a lot of our roading. Still, there's been incremental improvements for a bunch of years now...

[Ixion]

Utter codswallop.

I said the data was shonky. Now I'll go further and say it is an outright fabrication. A total lie in fact

I've done some more digging, and turned up the official MoT statistics

Which you can find at (three years because the article quotes three years)

2007 (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motor-Vehicle-Crashes-in-New-Zealand-2007.pdf)
2006 (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/section7-local-body-2006.pdf)
2005 (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/NewFolder/local-body-2005.pdf)

There's a lot of numbers, and vBulletin doesn't do number stoo well, so humour me

Total motor cycles crashes for the three years (injuries/fatalities)

2007 1336/41...... 2006 1019/38........2005 933/36

Now, the totals for Thames/Coromandel

2007 15/1............2006 10/1............2005 9/0

and Hauraki

2007 ..5/2............2006 7/0..............2005 5/0

Total, for the two districts, for the three years 51/4 . Out of a total of 3288/115. Anyone care to figure how 51 becomes 50 PER CENT of 3288. In fact it's about 1.5%.

And its not true about it being senile dodders either

From the same sources (just for 2007, cos I don't want to drown in figures, for all NZ)

0-19.. 258/5
20-24.168/6
25-29.119/1
30-34.110/5
35-39.122/10
40-44.119/3
45-49.132/6
50-54.110/4
55-59.69/2
60-64. 27/1
65-69.16/2
70+....14/2

Very clearly, the figures go into quite a sharp decline from the age of 50 onward. So much for that theory. The truth was masked of course in the published "Oh how wicked they are" document, by the clever way they amalgamated the ages groups.

And, there's more

OK, the total number of bike crashes and deaths ahs risen over the last three years. But, per 10000 bikes registered (same sources), it's actually gone down

2007 4.5%
2006 5.1%
2005 5.6%

We're getting BETTER not worse, the reverse of what they tried to tell us.

Now, either the people who put out this hogwash are totally incompetent (in which case they should be sacked): or they have deliberately lied to the public (in which case they should be sacked).

Admittedly, these are MoT figures, the article quoted "ACC claims". Which might include farm bike and off road injuries. But in that case they should not be used to attack road riders.

Either way I don't like it one bit. I don't like people who lie to me, I like it less when I am actually paying them to lie to me. And I like it least of all when they try to use those lies as excuses to take away my freedoms

BRONZ will be formally contacting Inspector Dunbier, to find the source of his claims. And seeking a formal retraction.

Nice people. Very nice indeed.

EDIT: His figure of 3.2 million dollars for the cost of motorcycles injuries is also very doubtful. Lianne Dalzeill (ex ACC Minister) is quoted as putting it at 52 million, which sounds more realistic. Given that taht would include farm and off road bikes, 2.2 million for Hauraki/Coromandel might be right. About 4%.

[Ocean1]

BRONZ will be formally contacting Inspector Dunbier

:oi-grr: Sick 'em Les. :)



0-19.. 258/5
20-24.168/6
25-29.119/1
30-34.110/5
35-39.122/10
40-44.119/3
45-49.132/6
50-54.110/4
55-59.69/2
60-64. 27/1
65-69.16/2
70+....14/2


Interesting wee spike there at 35-39...

[Jantar]

Once again Ixion has come up with the goods. :clap:

There are so many data sources that the Powers-that-be can pick and choose how they present the data to give the impression they want. It is often easy to pick the fault with their claim, but without the true underlying data it is difficult to make substantila counter claims. Well done Les.

[Ixion]

Interesting wee spike there at 35-39...

Hard to draw any conclusions without knowing how many actual (active) riders in each age group. Which is very very hard to do. There are figures for licence holders in each group, but so many class 6 licences are 'inactive'. (same problem for trucks - shed load of folk have a HGV licence but haven't driven a lorry in decade)

35-39 may be the "Kids are old enough , got a bit of spare coin, going to get a bike again age". Then after a few bins, they decide , maybe not, and the figures start dropping. Or, maybe it's something else. Last of the youthful hormones before old age nannaism sets in.

[Ocean1]

Hard to draw any conclusions without knowing how many actual (active) riders in each age group. Which is very very hard to do. There are figures for licence holders in each group, but so many class 6 licences are 'inactive'. (same problem for trucks - shed load of folk have a HGV licence but haven't driven a lorry in decade)

35-39 may be the "Kids are old enough , got a bit of spare coin, going to get a bike again age". Then after a few bins, they decide , maybe not, and the figures start dropping. Or, maybe it's something else. Last of the youthful hormones before old age nannaism sets in.

May be my imagination but it seems I know a lot of off road riders that age...

[MarkH]

(same problem for trucks - shed load of folk have a HGV licence but haven't driven a lorry in decade)

So true - 11 years in my case since I have driven anything that requires my class 2 or 4 license.

[dipshit]

Either way I don't like it one bit. I don't like people who lie to me, I like it less when I am actually paying them to lie to me. And I like it least of all when they try to use those lies as excuses to take away my freedoms

BRONZ will be formally contacting Inspector Dunbier, to find the source of his claims. And seeking a formal retraction.


You mean like when BRONZ tells everyone (including government ministers) that "a study of ACC statistics revealed that 80% of motorcycle accidents was caused by other car drivers"...

...yet forget to mention that the particular study they were referring to was only analysing accidents on a few particular Auckland streets...???

[Jantar]

You mean like when BRONZ tells everyone (including government ministers) that "a study of ACC statistics revealed that 80% of motorcycle accidents who caused by other car drivers"...

...yet forget to mention that the particular study they were referring to was only analysing accidents on a few particular Auckland streets...???
You have mentioned this claim a couple of times now, I would be interested to read both the claim and the study it refers to. Can you provide a link or reference to these?

[sunhuntin]

i'm not saying you are wrong, sunhuntin, but in all fairness you didn't take the arguement far enough

......... there are arrogant, dangerous nitwits in ALL age groups ... it would be helpful if they were all confined to one group [like ulysses] but, in my experience, there are no more of them in that group than there are in any other ....

this is true, and its also the reason i ride solo most of the time. its gotta be a pretty big event for me to choose to group ride. my main group is the triumph club, but the ulysses cross over to there as well, so i avoid them as well, except for charity rides.
my main argument was the fact that born again bikers tend to have slower reaction times, and less ability to handle the power of the big bikes. so the bike they rode when the were 20 could go what? 70mph? todays bikes can go upwards of 200k. many dont realise that, which is what worries me.

but, yeh, i agree. there are assholes/bad riders in all groups. i see the possible danger, and i minimise my exposure to it as best i can.

[dipshit]

You have mentioned this claim a couple of times now, I would be interested to read both the claim and the study it refers to. Can you provide a link or reference to these?

The claims...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10518419

"Owners of petrol motorcycles will have to pay $42.93 more to register their machines, on top of the fuel levy, because of their higher risk of injury on the roads. The Bikers' Rights Organisation says this is unfair, as it believes most serious injuries to motorcyclists are caused by collisions with heavier vehicles."

http://feeds.beehive.govt.nz/release/motorcycle%2Bsafety%2Bpackage%2Baddress%2B52%2Bmil lion%2Bproblem

“While in three quarters of accidents the motorcyclist was not at fault"



The actual study where that 75% figure came from.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10445028

[Ixion]

You mean like when BRONZ tells everyone (including government ministers) that "a study of ACC statistics revealed that 80% of motorcycle accidents was caused by other car drivers"...

...yet forget to mention that the particular study they were referring to was only analysing accidents on a few particular Auckland streets...???

All's grist that comes to my mill. Though I think the study referred only to multi vehicle accidents.

[Jantar]

OK, now I understand. You have unfortunately mixed the data from various sources.

BRONZ claimed "most serious injuries to motorcyclists are caused by collisions with heavier vehicles", no actual percentage or study is referred to.

The 75% figure came from the ACC as claimed by Marion Street in parliament. Again no actual study was reffered to, so the accuracy of the data cannot be verified. However as she was minister of ACC it is likely that this data was provided by ACC, and not as a result of any particular study.

Where you do refer to a study, it is actually just a report of police raising awareness of the fact that 43 of 213 claims in the Auckland region occured on five particular streets. No mention is made of the cause of accidents on those five streets. The report goes on to re-iterate the claim made by Marion Street by saying


"Ms Wells said 41 per cent of injury motorcycle crashes occurred in situations where drivers did not see the motorcycle.

In 75 per cent of the accidents the motorcyclists were not at fault."

Nowhere is any claim ever made of any study.

However, there have been many international studies that have looked into the causes of motorcycle accidents, and every single one that I have read has made the claim that most multi-vehicle accidents involving motorcycles are not the motorcyclist's fault. The percentages have varied with the lowest (from memory) being New Zealand where 66% of accidents were the other drivers fault to Britain where it was almost 90%.

Edit: I have the link to one of the most comprehensive studies ever carried out: http://www.motorcyclesafetyinfo.com/motorcycle_accident_in_depth_study.html

[sunhuntin]

What if the sort of person that would buy the biggest, most powerful bike in the shop is also the sort of person that would push the limits too far for their skill level? Maybe this guy would also have crashed a 250cc in the same situation.


honestly, i dont know how he managed to bin it in the first place. we were heading east, and when i came over the hill, both he and the bike were sitting in the ditch on the other side of the road facing west. he must have been really flying to manage that. a 250 wouldnt have been able to go fast enough to manage that... not to say he wouldnt have ended up in the ditch reguardless, but the damage may have been less.
the hill wasnt difficult at all [madmals driveway is a millions times worse! :2thumbsup] but it was blind on the other side... im picking he didnt read it right on the run up, and panicked when he got towards the top and couldnt see if there was anything there. the road isnt often used, and the chances of stock being on it would be fairly high. pity he was such an idiot... twas the bikes maiden ride. jerk. being a sportsbike, it would have been a write off.

[mstriumph]

..........tend to have slower reaction times, and less ability to handle the power of the big bikes. ...............

i agree totally with the rest of your post - but generalisations such as this smack of ..... age-ism ..... somehow?

[yeah - i'm ancient - that could be why i noticed
but not why i'm commenting ... i'm commenting because generalisations bother me]

it is true that, as you age, your reactions slow ..... so it follows that a person's reaction time at, say, 50 will be slower than it was when he [or she] was, say 20.
------ but whether that is an impediment to safe riding depends how good their reactions were at 20 ...... ? if at 20 that person had good reactions, i'd say there's a fighting chance they'd still be more than adequate by the time they qualified to join Ulysess .....

personally i've met some 20-something riders whose reactions are total shite and that i wouldn't ride with in a pink fit -- not because they aren't skillful [more skillful than moi in many instances] but because they appear to be dozing when it comes to reacting to road conditions, traffic patterns, etc. ..... when THESE people reach their 50's [if they do] i'd say they'll need tyres hung around them and a bloke walking in front of their bikes carrying a red flag.

... insofar as handling the power of big bikes is concerned - hmmmm - can't agree it matters WAT age you are, if you are overconfident and daft enough to get on something you can't handle then you're an idiot and a danger to yourself, the bike and everyone else, no?

[dipshit]

The 75% figure came from the ACC as claimed by Marion Street in parliament.

She had been consulting with BRONZ and other motorcycle bodies. She had BRONZ whispering in her ear.

I have also even read people's posts around here saying things like "they told us at a BRONZ meeting the other night that most motorcycle accidents are caused by car drivers"




However, there have been many international studies that have looked into the causes of motorcycle accidents, and every single one that I have read has made the claim that most multi-vehicle accidents involving motorcycles are not the motorcyclist's fault.

Why only pick out multiple vehicle accidents? Saying most multi-vehicle vehicle accidents are caused by car drivers is one thing. It is quite something else altogether to say "Most motorcycle accidents is not the fault of the rider" That is misleading if you fail to mention if you are only talking about multiple vehicle accidents.




The percentages have varied with the lowest (from memory) being New Zealand where 66% of accidents were the other drivers fault to Britain where it was almost 90%.

I am aware of some of those studies. That 90% figure from Britain is the multi-vehicle stat. By ignoring single vehicle accidents you make it look like motorcyclist's shit doesn't stink. But when you add in single vehicle accidents as well - then usually the majority of motorcycle accidents are the fault of the riders.

BRONZ plays on this smoke and mirrors trick to avoid bad publicity and instead try to gain public sympathy.

[Ixion]

She had been consulting with BRONZ and other motorcycle bodies. She had BRONZ whispering in her ear.



Alas, no. Their minders won't let us anywhere near ministers






BRONZ plays on this smoke and mirrors trick to avoid bad publicity and instead try to gain public sympathy.

Of course. Damn bad lobby group we'd be if we didn't wouldn't we?

Are you seriously suggesting that a motorcycle lobby group should court bad publicity and try to gain public antipathy?

Maybe PR is not where your natural talents lie ?

[sunhuntin]

a 20 year old, i dont think, would have binned as impressively as this guy did. his slow reaction times contributed to his bin. a younger rider may have been able to pull it back and escape with nothing more than a puckered arse. but then, ive no idea how fast he was actually going. there was a good few mins between myself and the rider in front.
watching some ulysses members off their bikes also makes me keep away. had one member come into bp when i was there... he musta been 70s? or older? and his hand was shaking so badly when he was trying to swipe his card, that it made me wonder how much control does he have over his handlebars? and by shaking, i mean washing machine spin cycle.

please note i said older riders TEND, not that they all do. the survival of the reactions times they had at 20 also depends on how many years since they were on a bike and needed those quick reactions to survive. it all depends on many things.
ive noticed when im a passenger with susan, who used to ride a scooter but not for 10 years or more, i spot danger ahead a lot faster than she does. if i gave up riding for the comforts of a car, theres no way that ability would stay with me for 40 years. like many instincts, lack of use sees them dumbed down to the point they arent there. even in 6 or so the years since ive ridden a bicycle, a lot of the skills i took for granted have vanished. i used to feel 100% safe on my old pushie, but when i borrowed susans, i was scared shitless.

i agree on the over confidence thing as well. thats why i wont go near a sportsbike with a 10ft pole. i like seeing the end of the ride and recounting the tales afterwards. any idiot can bin a bike... its not that hard to do. it takes skill to NOT bin. [note: im meaning solo vehicle bins with no outside influence on the incident like wet/oil/stocky roads or other vehicles pulling out etc]

[MSTRS]

BRONZ plays on this smoke and mirrors trick to avoid bad publicity and instead try to gain public sympathy.

Everybody has their own angle. And absolute truth in statistics only exists in your imagination. I'd rather have someone in bat for me than against if there is to be any fast and loose playing with numbers....

[dipshit]

Of course. Damn bad lobby group we'd be if we didn't wouldn't we?

Are you seriously suggesting that a motorcycle lobby group should court bad publicity and try to gain public antipathy?

Maybe PR is not where your natural talents lie ?


At least I fully realise what BRONZ is about.

The trouble is other riders also swallow your PR bullshit campaign. They carry on business as usual thinking their shit doesn't stink and everything is either the cages fault or the state of the f%*ing roads.

Stats like 75% of motorcycle fatalities are the fault of the rider usually come as a surprise to them.

[Jantar]

...Why only pick out multiple vehicle accidents? Saying most multi-vehicle vehicle accidents are caused by car drivers is one thing. It is quite something else altogether to say "Most motorcycle accidents is not the fault of the rider" That is misleading if you fail to mention if you are only talking about multiple vehicle accidents.....

True, but in the MAIDS study I linked to it says

Major Findings:
1. In 37% of cases, the primary accident contributing factor was a human error on the part of the PTW rider. In some situations, the human errors that occurred involved skills that were beyond those that typical drivers or operators might currently have. This is often due to the extreme circumstances of some of the accident cases, including an insufficient amount of time available to complete collision avoidance. (Sources: Tables 4.1, 5.23). In 13% of all cases, there was a decision failure on the part of the PTW rider. (Sources: Figure 4.1, Table C.5) And that is over ALL accidents, not just MV ones.

Edit: PTW is "Powered Two Wheeled"

[cheshirecat]

It's not always the car's fault. Motorcyclists do hurt people other than themselves. There is no justification for consistently and continually flouting NZ's traffic regs.

The opportunities to enjoy your motorcycle and learn your own limits in a controlled situation are vastly more numerous than ever before. Hill Climbs, Sprints, Track Days, Rider education days at the track, riding courses run by people like RRRS, all huge fun in different ways.

I can't quite get why motorcyclists think the rules just don't apply. Like the utterly stupid little monkey on a CBR250rr on the way home tonight, who did license losing speeds past a speed camera that went off. O, how I laughed.

Ok I was generalising (bother, done it again, dig my way out etc, etc) and I agree 100% with your bit quoted above. We are all tarred with that geezer, no vehicle and 'gun' license, hooning it up with drink and drugs and, as per the 250 and there's also no excuse for pulling that wheelie down Kent terrace or that other geezer on the black thing doing same across Newton lights a couple of times. One thing I do know is that one of these days their number is going to come up and I just hope they don't take anyone down with them.

[Ixion]

I have written to Inspector Dunbier and the ACC , seeking verification of their 50% claim. We shall see what the good Inspector has to say.

[Motu]

I also wonder what the make up of bikes involved in these incidents is - I would expect most to be centered around either extreme of bike design....sports bikes and cruisers.I think bikes more in the middle....nakids,retros,modern classics or however we want to classify them,would be less in evidence.And hopefully bikes more suited to these roads,like adventure bikes would be pretty low in the statistics.Apart from the fact that owners of such bikes are superior riders to sports bike and cruiser riders....the bikes are far more flexible in their abilities.Sports bikes are made for perfect roads with corners,cruisers are made for perfect roads without corners.If the roads are not perfect,both are capable of giving their owners grief.