Drink driving, establishing boundaries

[98tls]

So much for getting tougher,from the ODT in Dunedin."A mans 13th and 14th convictions for disqualified driving and his 10th conviction for drink driving bought two years jail and two years disqualification when he appeared for sentence in the Dunedin district court yesterday".Here's the kicker,"the latest offending occured after Kerrins graduated from a Salvation Army Bridge programme for alcohol abuse".:laugh::laugh:What happened to 3 strikes and your out that they promised,sad shit really.

[Badjelly]

So much for getting tougher,from the ODT in Dunedin."A mans 13th and 14th convictions for disqualified driving and his 10th conviction for drink driving bought two years jail and two years disqualification when he appeared for sentence in the Dunedin district court yesterday".Here's the kicker,"the latest offending occured after Kerrins graduated from a Salvation Army Bridge programme for alcohol abuse".:laugh::laugh:What happened to 3 strikes and your out that they promised,sad shit really.

They're putting the guy in jail. Doesn't that qualify as "out"?

[4Ducati]

So much for getting tougher,from the ODT in Dunedin."A mans 13th and 14th convictions for disqualified driving and his 10th conviction for drink driving bought two years jail and two years disqualification when he appeared for sentence in the Dunedin district court yesterday".Here's the kicker,"the latest offending occured after Kerrins graduated from a Salvation Army Bridge programme for alcohol abuse".:laugh::laugh:What happened to 3 strikes and your out that they promised,sad shit really.

Hmmm, why not break all his fingers as well so he can't drive or pick-up a drink for a while...............

Obviously a sloooooooow learner - may shower-time inside be as deserved for him.........

[slimjim]

really...should think a free meal and a three day weekend with Katman may have a better effect...

[98tls]

Watch them all run for cover when the guy celebrates getting out of jail and goes on a bender and kills some poor bugger.:soon:

[MSTRS]

Watch them all run for cover when the guy celebrates getting out of jail and goes on a bender and kills some poor bugger.:soon:

Sadly likely.
Some people never learn, so what's the point of imposing anything, bar removing the physical ability to drive?

[raftn]

Watch them all run for cover when the guy celebrates getting out of jail and goes on a bender and kills some poor bugger.:soon:

Thinking the exact same thing!

[Badjelly]

Some people never learn, so what's the point of imposing anything, bar removing the physical ability to drive?

So what, specifically, are you suggesting?

[scumdog]

So what, specifically, are you suggesting?

For some I suggest gouging their eyes out- they won't drink-drive again and they weren't doing anything to help society or earn an income anyway...so no loss and lots safer for the rest of us.:devil2:

[98tls]

Sadly likely.
Some people never learn, so what's the point of imposing anything, bar removing the physical ability to drive? Personally mate i agree but sadly its not going to happen.If this guy was locked up way back when his shit started there was at least a chance of knocking it on the head methinks,then again wtf do i know apart from the fact that all the deaths,promises and wanking from those that make the rules amounts to absolutly nothing,i actually laughed when i read the article in the paper,not a happy laugh more a cynical utterance reflecting how fucked up those that should no better have become, at the same time its a reflection of what we all have become as we put up with it.Cant imagine how fucked off the cops get with wasting there time arresting fuckers like this only to see some cock slap there wrist as you would a child for.......whatever.

[Manxman]

... only to see some cock slap there wrist as you would a child for.......whatever.

But you're not allowed to do that these days. Thanks Sue.:finger: I note yet another child beating case was not prevented by this law change: http://www.stuff.co.nz/4781301a11.html

As an aside, I think it's bluddy great that the Greens have been relegated to a far distant political voice. Fuppin commies:Pokey:

Back on topic. Sorry/

[Mom]

If this guy was locked up way back when his shit started there was at least a chance of knocking it on the head.

I used to work with a young (28) guy, hell of a lovely bloke. Good employee, excellent worker, good team player, you name it I could say yes to it. But he is a piss head. He is about to serve his 3rd prison term for driving under the influence. He owns he has a problem, but has not reached his personal rock bottom, so he wont stop drinking. He has been done just recently for breaching his bail conditions. There appears no deterrent works. Very, very sad.

[4Ducati]

For some I suggest gouging their eyes out- they won't drink-drive again and they weren't doing anything to help society or earn an income anyway...so no loss and lots safer for the rest of us.:devil2:

With thoughts like that, I'd happily buy ya a beer or 3 sometime.......so long as no driving afterwards..........;) :)

[MSTRS]

So what, specifically, are you suggesting?

Lock them up forever? Frontal lobotomy? Remove their hands? Or SD might be onto a winner.
I realise that any physical 'de-activation' is likely to simply cost the taxpayer anyway, but FFS, caught 14x and still at it? Come on...calls for something really harsh.

[98tls]

I used to work with a young (28) guy, hell of a lovely bloke. Good employee, excellent worker, good team player, you name it I could say yes to it. But he is a piss head. He is about to serve his 3rd prison term for driving under the influence. He owns he has a problem, but has not reached his personal rock bottom, so he wont stop drinking. He has been done just recently for breaching his bail conditions. There appears no deterrent works. Very, very sad. See your point Mom but,28 isnt that young and i would imagine in most cases it starts way sooner,sure jail wont sort everyone out but if there was ground rules like 1st/2nd time whatever away to the big house you go then i would bet on at least a 1/2 decent strike rate,10/12 :laugh:bit late methinks,besides that its only luck he hasnt killed someone along the way.As an afterthought watch the news tonight,bet your boots theres no mention of this guy at all,sadly the only time he will reach the news is when he kills someone.

[Mom]

sadly the only time he will reach the news is when he kills someone.


You are so right! I have read him 10 riot acts in the time I have known him. I am a bit of a Mom by nature as well as by name you see :o

The last was the day he owned to breaching his bail conditions, have not seen him around ( I dont work where he does anymore) but I am picking he is spending yet another Xmas in jail ( he did not want to do that). He is sick man, and no amount of jail time will fix him, he simply needs to give up the drink. Lets hope I never read/hear about him being behind the wheel of a fatal accident, no matter who dies.

I dont have any problems with the compulsory roadside testing that happens. I have a problem with the limits imposed here in NZ. It is too grey, too hard for a drinker to know when they are OK to drive. It should be zero limit. If you drink, no matter how little, you dont drive, full stop. This from an apprentice pisshead too btw.

[candor]

I wonder why wouldn't they. Sweden has virtual zero limit - 0.02.
Loss of mass fines, of ability to check out many comers at checkpoints, of work for socialworkers, specialist DUI lawyers, car sales of some expensive models would decline (worst drink driver I know has a 150g car or 2 with safety specsthat have saved his neck) and of course the liquor and related industry would throw a wobbly.

Jail doesn't deter much, the focus needs to go on seperating culprits from harmful vehicle types. Put the recidivists on life sentences to cycle or use footpower, and make an offence for anyone loaning them a vehicle the same.

Social acceptability as above - he's such a nice guy - continues it. Potential killers aren't nice guys where it counts- wolf in sheep clothing, half the DUI killings are done by recidivists (Bailey, ESR 1998). No 1 form of homicide. It comes down to arseholeness from people with no value on life, and should more often be acknowledged as such (AH's).

Being drunk doesn't diminish responsibility for actions. Big enough to drink - big enough to control oneself by not driving when so. But it won't happen till society places a value on this - people feel more OK about drink driving (often shrugged off) than littering, which due to well drummed in environmental values results in greater stigma and approbation.

Never heard the killer of the 2 girls at Edgeware Rd get much sympathy for his decisionmaking of driving at a crowd being affected by alcohol. Same should apply for decision of getting behind wheel, but everyone goes... oooh I can relate.

Societies attitude is too soft here - in the US a recidivist who kills can face murder 1, on the basis they had to be aware (if previously convicted) that it was not an altogether safe plan to drive impaired. Occasionally hear of concerned friends / rellys who disable vehicles of untrustys :2thumbsup. Why not convert the ambulances to contracted drivers like share taxis of permanent or at least long term disqualifieds - if they did it for about 5-10,000 we'd cut drink drive fatalities in half. Our success by world rates is mediocre in this area, why not go for broke.

[spudchucka]

Sadly likely.
Some people never learn, so what's the point of imposing anything, bar removing the physical ability to drive?

Keeping the public safe by denying him the liberty that allows him to continually endanger their innocent lives?

[MSTRS]

Keeping the public safe by denying him the liberty that allows him to continually endanger their innocent lives?

This particular wanker got 2 years jail and 2 years disq. This for his 10TH DIC and 13/14th DWD. Sure, he can't drive while he's inside, but he won't do 2 years, and once out he'll be straight back into it. His history says he will. Being drunk doesn't stop him driving and neither does being disqualified. The only thing that will stop him is being physically unable. What form would you suggest that take?

[imdying]

So what, specifically, are you suggesting?

Apparently drowning is one of the scariest, worst ways to die (how the fuck they figured that out I'll never know...). I vote we hold his head in a bucket of water for 15 minutes.

[4Ducati]

Righto, heres my vote - Candor for Transport Minister, effective ASAP. I'm sure within the forum you'll be able to find some consultants to help ya out a bit if you need it.........

[Genestho]

Agree with you up there Mom - Last sentence (I like a cold beer myself!).
And a few other comments. (Sorry forgot the quote thingy)

Over the weekend I received an email, from a newly elected MP in Parliament, who has said he "greatly admires" what Im upto, he has extended his hand and would like to assist in making a change in this area.

I think its time for a sit down and a coffee with this good bugger in the New Year and see if we can have a wee chat about what can be done.

For the cycnics yea yea'ing - He wouldn't have bothered to contact me if he wasn't serious.
Its just a matter of forming the plan based on studies overseas, and see'ing what can be acheived in the realms of beuracracy (sp?)

This section 65 thing is supposed to be wrapped up in April, maybe we can get some changes, along with reccommendations submitted via my boys inquest, which If Im lucky may be complete one day!

I believe since myself and others in similar circumstances keep pouring the pressure on...we will see action:2guns:..Them big wheels are creaking for change.

[4Ducati]

Good on ya G.W. - but IMHO - its not just a drink driving thing, as can be seen in this other thread where we've 'met'........


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1835030#post1835030

Some of my thoughts as per below C & P..........


I'm gonna put my 2c worth in here too.......(Guzzi Widow, Candor - fully agree with you both!!)

1) Recidivist drink drivers - deal with them properly!!!!! PLEASE!! Absolute utter lowlifes as far as I'm concerned.

2) Put an EXPIRY date on restricted licences - 2yrs from getting your restricted, it expires if you have'nt passed a full test - start again at the beginning!! We have 30 yr old drivers on our roads that have NEVER sat a full licence test, & have been driving on restricted licences for over 10 yrs.

3) STOP telling people how 'safe' their vehicles are - fact is, they are bloody dangerous @ times!! ABS, airbags, stability control & all the other rubbish, is NO substitute for having a good driver making great decisions behind the steering wheel!! Theres a stack of drivers out there that can't even identify 'what' a hazard is, before it embeds itself into their bonnet.

4) Speeding..........I absolutely hate the current revenue & quota driven approach to speeding.........!! So, 100kph is 'safe', yet 101 kph is deemed unsafe........what rubbish!! 101kph is just 'illegal' - 70kph in some 100k areas is dangerous in some conditions. Much like in dry weather in a modern vehicle, an alert driver is perfectly safe doing 140kph through the MacKenzie Basin (Tekapo / Twizel etc) in light traffic conditions.

5) Fatigue / drugs - educate & enforce.

6) Introduce zero blood alcohol limit for all drivers, period!! What we have at the moment is just bullshit IMHO.

7) Driving Fines exceed $5000 - revoke licence till paid off - impound & sell any vehicles that driver is caught driving. Once fines paid off - can then resit licence starting at 'L' stage again.

8) Put some proper driving skills into our drivers.

9) Get rid of the current 'put up a hazard road sign' mentality - driving IS hazardous, yet some drivers can't relate to a hazardous situation if there happens to be no sign up telling them about it / warning them.........

When will things change??? Only when NZ drivers / riders / operators start taking proper & total responsibility for their actions while driving, - when NZ families finally get tired of putting their loved ones in a hole in the ground, because of the actions of a few idiots & oxygen thiefs that we continue to allow to drive on NZ roads.

Interesting thread this one, & something I'm extremely dedicated to. (trust me, I'm being fairly restrained in this post.........!!)

And.........


Thanks Slim - I left one out though..........

10) - Harden up the serious driving offence repercussions - kill some-one in a MVA, & you currently get charged with 'careless use causing death' or 'dangerous driving causing death' - take away the 'vehicle component', & obtain the same result using a differant type of 'weapon', & you're looking at 'murder / manslaughter' charges..........

Am I the only one that struggles to see what the differance is..........???!!! Bearing in mind, both are same result, caused by some-one elses actions.........

If changing laws happens to upset a few of our tree-hugging dope-smoking left-winged pollitically-correct do-gooder queer ba$tards that are nicely closeted in their beauracratic palaces away from the 'REAL' world - I"M ALL FOR IT!!!!!!!


:argh::argh:

[scumdog]

.


4) Speeding..........I absolutely hate the current revenue & quota driven approach to speeding.........!! So, 100kph is 'safe', yet 101 kph is deemed unsafe........what rubbish!! 101kph is just 'illegal' - 70kph in some 100k areas is dangerous in some conditions. Much like in dry weather in a modern vehicle, an alert driver is perfectly safe doing 140kph through the MacKenzie Basin (Tekapo / Twizel etc) in light traffic conditions.:argh::argh:

Sorta like a breath alcohol level of 400 is 'safe' but a level of 410 is deemed 'unsafe'????:msn-wink:

Sorry to put that in but apart from that I agree with the rest of your post.:niceone:

[Genestho]

Good on ya G.W. - but IMHO - its not just a drink driving thing, as can be seen in this other thread where we've 'met'........


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1835030#post1835030

Some of my thoughts as per below C & P..........


I'm gonna put my 2c worth in here too.......(Guzzi Widow, Candor - fully agree with you both!!)

1) Recidivist drink drivers - deal with them properly!!!!! PLEASE!! Absolute utter lowlifes as far as I'm concerned.

2) Put an EXPIRY date on restricted licences - 2yrs from getting your restricted, it expires if you have'nt passed a full test - start again at the beginning!! We have 30 yr old drivers on our roads that have NEVER sat a full licence test, & have been driving on restricted licences for over 10 yrs.

3) STOP telling people how 'safe' their vehicles are - fact is, they are bloody dangerous @ times!! ABS, airbags, stability control & all the other rubbish, is NO substitute for having a good driver making great decisions behind the steering wheel!! Theres a stack of drivers out there that can't even identify 'what' a hazard is, before it embeds itself into their bonnet.

4) Speeding..........I absolutely hate the current revenue & quota driven approach to speeding.........!! So, 100kph is 'safe', yet 101 kph is deemed unsafe........what rubbish!! 101kph is just 'illegal' - 70kph in some 100k areas is dangerous in some conditions. Much like in dry weather in a modern vehicle, an alert driver is perfectly safe doing 140kph through the MacKenzie Basin (Tekapo / Twizel etc) in light traffic conditions.

5) Fatigue / drugs - educate & enforce.

6) Introduce zero blood alcohol limit for all drivers, period!! What we have at the moment is just bullshit IMHO.

7) Driving Fines exceed $5000 - revoke licence till paid off - impound & sell any vehicles that driver is caught driving. Once fines paid off - can then resit licence starting at 'L' stage again.

8) Put some proper driving skills into our drivers.

9) Get rid of the current 'put up a hazard road sign' mentality - driving IS hazardous, yet some drivers can't relate to a hazardous situation if there happens to be no sign up telling them about it / warning them.........

When will things change??? Only when NZ drivers / riders / operators start taking proper & total responsibility for their actions while driving, - when NZ families finally get tired of putting their loved ones in a hole in the ground, because of the actions of a few idiots & oxygen thiefs that we continue to allow to drive on NZ roads.

Interesting thread this one, & something I'm extremely dedicated to. (trust me, I'm being fairly restrained in this post.........!!)

And.........


Thanks Slim - I left one out though..........

10) - Harden up the serious driving offence repercussions - kill some-one in a MVA, & you currently get charged with 'careless use causing death' or 'dangerous driving causing death' - take away the 'vehicle component', & obtain the same result using a differant type of 'weapon', & you're looking at 'murder / manslaughter' charges..........

Am I the only one that struggles to see what the differance is..........???!!! Bearing in mind, both are same result, caused by some-one elses actions.........

If changing laws happens to upset a few of our tree-hugging dope-smoking left-winged pollitically-correct do-gooder queer ba$tards that are nicely closeted in their beauracratic palaces away from the 'REAL' world - I"M ALL FOR IT!!!!!!!


:argh::argh:

lol, yep..I saw your post over there...Thanks.

I agree with your post and some parts of your post is addressed in my research and study areas..but general car safety and general licensing issues are not covered in what I look at.

I kinda figure theres alot of people working on the other issues and I cant stretch myself any further and dont really want to, spread yourself thin and you know eff all, keep focussed and you can learn alot!
AA has some really constructive ideas - have a look throught their policies..They lobby quite a bit on general Road Safety - from what I understand...:niceone:

[4Ducati]

S.D. - yeah, you know what I'm trying to say though, & I've tried to quantify it by also saying about 100k being too fast at times too.........BTW, roughly how far South are you, if I can ask that??

Funny - LTSA etc spend a bucket load of money on advertising, showing all sorts of differant things over the years, yet the most effective ad that I believe has stuck in my head, is ACC's 'Drive to the conditions'. Simple, to the point, & totally true........

G.W - re AA - personally, I'm in disagreeance there, as my opinion is that AANZ, over the last 10 yrs, has become nothing much more than a mouth-piece for Govt. policies. I remember times in the past, where they were actively protecting rights of NZ motorists - those days are gone IMHO........

[scumdog]

S.D. - yeah, you know what I'm trying to say though, & I've tried to quantify it by also saying about 100k being too fast at times too.........BTW, roughly how far South are you, if I can ask that??
........


A bit below Dunedin....

[McJim]

Lock them up forever? Frontal lobotomy? Remove their hands? Or SD might be onto a winner..
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal labotomy any day.:rofl:

[MSTRS]

I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal labotomy any day.:rofl:

And so would the dork who sparked this thread....

[98tls]

Jail doesn't deter much, the focus needs to go on seperating culprits from harmful vehicle types. Put the recidivists on life sentences to cycle or use footpower, and make an offence for anyone loaning them a vehicle the same.
Mate you can have a court order making whatever you like an offence but chances are a recidivist drink driver with a skin full of piss wont take one bit of notice,for my money theres 2 issues to be faced with the drink driving thing,1st up what to do with the recidivist? he/she will generally be older and set in his ways so to speak so no amount of talking/bridge programmes time spent with do-gooders is going to help,jail at least keeps them off the road and in some,maybe only a few cases he/she will wake up and realise what a mess they have made of there lives and actually do something about it.The other issue would be what to do to stop young people becoming recidivists,i am not saying i know the answers here but i can confidently say 6 months loss of licence and a few months PD doesnt deter many from driving drunk again.Straight to jail for a minimum of 6 months for a first offence? i dunno but if up to me thats what i would go with first,combined with some real education on the subject whilst there in there not some dottery old do-gooder that they will go and listen to for no other reason than to eat the biscuits that they provide.Who knows its a hard one for sure,made harder by our judges refusal to take it seriously no matter what the law says.

[MSTRS]

Mate you can have a court order making whatever you like an offence but chances are a recidivist drink driver with a skin full of piss wont take one bit of notice,for my money theres 2 issues to be faced with the drink driving thing,1st up what to do with the recidivist? he/she will generally be older and set in his ways so to speak so no amount of talking/bridge programmes time spent with do-gooders is going to help,jail at least keeps them off the road and in some,maybe only a few cases he/she will wake up and realise what a mess they have made of there lives and actually do something about it.The other issue would be what to do to stop young people becoming recidivists,i am not saying i know the answers here but i can confidently say 6 months loss of licence and a few months PD doesnt deter many from driving drunk again.Straight to jail for a minimum of 6 months for a first offence? i dunno but if up to me thats what i would go with first,combined with some real education on the subject whilst there in there not some dottery old do-gooder that they will go and listen to for no other reason than to eat the biscuits that they provide.Who knows its a hard one for sure,made harder by our judges refusal to take it seriously no matter what the law says.

Can't bling you just now, but that brings the nail and hammer into direct contact.

[ManDownUnder]

Tattoo the fuckers. I hate them

Put a "DD" on their right cheek for every offense and do it in red for every life they took as a result of their offending.

[Swoop]

Fit a device to every car, that if it detects alcohol in the air near the driver, a foot-long metal spike is fired vertically from the centre of the drivers seat.

[Genestho]

Mate you can have a court order making whatever you like an offence but chances are a recidivist drink driver with a skin full of piss wont take one bit of notice,for my money theres 2 issues to be faced with the drink driving thing,1st up what to do with the recidivist? he/she will generally be older and set in his ways so to speak so no amount of talking/bridge programmes time spent with do-gooders is going to help,jail at least keeps them off the road and in some,maybe only a few cases he/she will wake up and realise what a mess they have made of there lives and actually do something about it.The other issue would be what to do to stop young people becoming recidivists,i am not saying i know the answers here but i can confidently say 6 months loss of licence and a few months PD doesnt deter many from driving drunk again.Straight to jail for a minimum of 6 months for a first offence? i dunno but if up to me thats what i would go with first,combined with some real education on the subject whilst there in there not some dottery old do-gooder that they will go and listen to for no other reason than to eat the biscuits that they provide.Who knows its a hard one for sure,made harder by our judges refusal to take it seriously no matter what the law says.


I agree with you on the jail term - getting them off the roads - for our safety.

The problem with jail, is that it wont cure alcohol dependancy or abuse problems, I assume it would feed them, I dont know myself..

Some recidivists offences (like the guy that killed our three) are quite spread out over time and slip out of the net, continuing the same behaviour until theyre caught or kill.
People around them dont stop them.

I also agree with the Judges not following up at their end. (We see it over and over everywhere)

Right now we dont have anything that appears to aim for long term recovery. We need "do gooders" to have a go.
I dont know the percentage of success but for one guy thats reoffended there'll be some that havent. (Thats an interesting thing to find out!)
Also as we know, we have to admit our own weaknesses in order to be cured.
I have a guy thats going for a phd - and a change in the way we educate and treat recidivists in the Health Sector.
With new and fresh approaches

"Victims" panels that tell their stories to the youth and in drink drive education stories.

I have given permission for My Husband and our friends story as part of a drink drive education course, thats been running all year I believe and there is another course starting in another part of NZ that looks to be going this way.

I agree with starting at the beginning - tackling youth. I already know for a fact that works, every child or teen around me, my family, has been affected by this crash.

Theres a good program at the mo (Run by NZPolice? I think?) where kids go into hospital and meet drivers who've been permanently injured in alcohol related crashes, piddling with catheters etc, alcohol ed.

I have also reccommended a change in the way we educate the potential "accidental drink drivers", and got my request, in the WBOP Road Safety area anyway. They have a new brochure out and its good.

I have also reccomended M.O.T to work with self confessed recidivists and "victims" of drink drive accidents to conduct a study as to how different tactics can work.

Education for potential drink drivers; penalties, standard drinks sizes is a good one (Not per hour - as it impossible to tell anyone how much to drink and be under the limit) but the amount per glass

Oh and Zero Tolerance, we cant stay under a limit if we dont know what each personal limit is.
Ive said a million times before, and as Mom said the grey area is too hard for anyone to stay legal.

Theres alot of ways to tackle this, there is no ONE magic bullet.

I stopped a drunk who was drinking a beer in the drivers seat of her car at 3pm over a month ago, she was so pissed she was swaying before she jumped into her car, pants down and talking to the rubbish bin.
I found out later her daughter killed herself by drink driving. How Ironic.
The sad thing was she'd visited the Dairy prior to getting into her car - nobody stopped her.

Things have got to change

[98tls]

Are judges assesed on performance?as in a review of sentences dealt out over a set period,theres no consistancy with there sentencing at all,at the start of this thread theres a guy who finally gets a token jail sentence after his 10th time,not to mention the number of disqualifacations along the way that hes ignored,ive read of guys getting banged up albeit even more of a token sentence for there 4th Dic,surely it would have accured to someone along the way that he doesnt give a shit about being disq so he should have been banged up way back for that alone.Same old story eh,ambulance at the bottom of the cliff,what really annoys me is that we can all see it so i can only assume those handing out the sentences can to which makes there lack of action even more pathetic.Rant over,for me anyway ive seen both sides of the fence and for the life of me cant work out why nothing is done both for the road using public and for those that ruin there own lives by doing it.Agree on the no magic bullet thing for sure but if they would just make an attempt would be nice.

[scumdog]

Joining the 5-0 sure as hell cured me of even THINKING of driving after I've had even two drinks.

Loss of job on top of the 'bad decision' aspect is one hell of a dererent.

[98tls]

Joining the 5-0 sure as hell cured me of even THINKING of driving after I've had even two drinks.

Loss of job on top of the 'bad decision' aspect is one hell of a dererent. Coming within a hares breath of losing everything for having more than 2 deterred me,hence my belief in "off to the big house" will work at least for some,

[spudchucka]

This particular wanker got 2 years jail and 2 years disq. This for his 10TH DIC and 13/14th DWD. Sure, he can't drive while he's inside, but he won't do 2 years, and once out he'll be straight back into it. His history says he will. Being drunk doesn't stop him driving and neither does being disqualified. The only thing that will stop him is being physically unable. What form would you suggest that take?

Permanent imprisonment with the option of state assisted suicide as an alternative if they don't want to spend the rest of their miserable lives in jail.