Countersteering and leaning

[Pascal]

Hi all,

I'm new and haven't posted yet - I wanted to sit the Learner's to at least qualify for riding first, having not been on a bike for almost fifteen years (And then when I was in High School and didn't know anything). Anyway, I'm working through the Road Code so I can sit the test on Saturday morning (Have done Basic Handling, etc.) but there is one bit that seems a bit weird, so I thought I'd ask the experienced riders.


Lean by Countersteering
The best way to lean your motorcycle for a corner is to countersteer.

Countersteering is the technique where you push forward on the handlebars in the direction that you want the motorcycle to go. For example, to lean and turn to the left, you should push forward on the left handlebar.

Even though it may seem to be the 'wrong' thing to do, countersteering is the most effective means of changing direction and controlling the motorcycle.

When the motorcycle is leaned over to the correct angle for the corner, you will instinctively straighten the handlebars and the motorcycle will stabilise.


Okay, that does seem to be the 'wrong' thing to do. I have visions of kissing asphalt and leaving all sorts of scrapes all over myself and my bike.

Then and again, this is a government related publication. They shouldn't put blatantly wrong advise in there. Then and again, this is a government publication. They're not known for being right a lot of the time.

So, advise, please. Is that correct? If so, how does it work? And how would you suggest somebody tries that the very first time?

[Mom]

Hi all,

So, advise, please. Is that correct? If so, how does it work? And how would you suggest somebody tries that the very first time?


Hi Pascale, welcome to KB!

It does seem a bit weird to think you push your handlebars in the wrong direction to turn easily I agree, but it is true, and it does work.

Have a go at this. Take a left hand corner, nice and gentle lean into the turn. Do it a couple of times so you know how to lean around the bend. Now do it again but as you lean put a little bit of gentle pressure on the bar (push it away from yourself) on the clutch side of your bike. Gentle mind as this is actually very effective.

What you will discover is that the bike actually goes around that curve much easier. It really is easy, but takes a bit of practice to perfect. Once you have the skill you will use it without even being aware you are.

[nosebleed]

Pascal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc <-- Its worth a 1000 words and all that

[jrandom]

Use the site search function to find very much wisdom on the subject of countersteering.

Some argue that it doesn't exist. Others point out that shaft-driven motorcycles are, due to physics, incapable of wheelieing.

Still others just get on with riding their motorcycles while standing on the footpegs and waving to the crowd.

The last ones are really cool, so you should try to be like them.

:yes:

[Pascal]

Its worth a 1000 words and all that

That was indeed worth a 1000 words. Maybe even a 1001. Thank you. And thank you for the welcome and advice Mom and jrandom.

[CookMySock]

The best way to introduce yourself to countersteering is on a straight road. Choose a long straight country road with no traffic and travel at about 70km/hr, and use only bar pushes to swap from the left to the right side of your lane - start with just gentle pushes on one bar and then the other, and watch the bike instantly respond. Once you "see" this you will find it quite intriguing, and you will have great fun doing it everywhere. It feels cool as well.

What you will have discovered, is that you can actually sit perfectly still on a bike and steer very accurately with only with the bars, so try doing this everywhere you go, until it feels normal. Resist the temptation to apex corners (for now) and concentrate on accurately maintaining your position in your half-lane, until you are the picture of accuracy, and you can choose precisely and exactly the line you will take. Don't try to add speed.

This sets an important mode in your brain - so should you ever get a fright on your bike you will likely revert to countersteering by default, rather than standing the bike upright and going straight ahead. Owch!

And forget all about that "countersteering will make you drop your bike - don't try this at home" crap, that is a lot of bullshit. It is NOT countersteering that will get you in the crap much more quickly at highway speeds.

Hey welcome to KB as well. Have a good time!

Steve

[nodrog]

The best way to introduce yourself to countersteering is on a straight road. Choose a long straight country road with no traffic and travel at about 70km/hr, and use only bar pushes to swap from the left to the right side of your lane - start with just gentle pushes on one bar and then the other, and watch the bike instantly respond. Once you "see" this you will find it quite intriguing, and you will have great fun doing it everywhere. It feels cool as well.

What you will have discovered, is that you can actually sit perfectly still on a bike and steer very accurately with only with the bars, so try doing this everywhere you go, until it feels normal. Resist the temptation to apex corners (for now) and concentrate on accurately maintaining your position in your half-lane, until you are the picture of accuracy, and you can choose precisely and exactly the line you will take. Don't try to add speed.

This sets an important mode in your brain - so should you ever get a fright on your bike you will likely revert to countersteering by default, rather than standing the bike upright and going straight ahead. Owch!

And forget all about that "countersteering will make you drop your bike - don't try this at home" crap, that is a lot of bullshit. It is NOT countersteering that will get you in the crap much more quickly at highway speeds.

Hey welcome to KB as well. Have a good time!

Steve

what the fuck are you doing giving riding advice? arnet you the one who promotes looking at the scenery whilst travelling around one of the most notorious routes in the country? and what state is your bike in again?

maybe you should leave the advice to sombody who has been riding for more than 6 months.

P.S. report it all you like, but this post isnt abuse, it contains serious questions which need answers so people can form an opinion as to wether or not they should be listening to your ramblings.

[slimjim]

welcome too..... as you will see.... some good will come from all...take it easy out here...its a jungle.....O merry christmas too....

[Usarka]

I almost crashed looking at scenery while following a slow car around some tight roads.

On topic: countersteering saved me from flying off mr cliff on the other side of the road. Once you get a bit more practice work with the idea that more throttle = good if you need to turn quicker (don't take my ramblings for it i'm hung over to fuck and back).

[MSTRS]

<-- Its worth a 1000 words and all that

I don't agree with the comment that it occurs at all speeds. I will contend that in the example of 3mph (5kph) that the side twitches were simply the rider keeping his balance and that they did not set up his turn. Effectively CS comes into play at around 20kph.
The other thing I would add is that to lean the bike for a turn requires some degree of CS. There are those that say they don't CS...BS I say. It is possible to lean a bike and continue in a straight line (you must use body position as a counterweight) BUT give the 'downhill' bar a nudge forward and the bike will then commence turning in the direction the bike is leaning.

[Jantar]

I don't agree with the comment that it occurs at all speeds. I will contend that in the example of 3mph (5kph) that the side twitches were simply the rider keeping his balance and that they did not set up his turn. Effectively CS comes into play at around 20kph.....

True counter steering is a result of centrifugal progression, so MSTRS is quite correct. Remember that counter steering isn't just to set up the lean, it is also to recover from it afterwards. For any wheel diameter/weight combination there is a specific speed at which counter steering will both assist the turn and recover. I have ridden bikes where this doesn't happen till close to 40 kmh, while on other bikes it is under 15 kmh.

OK, this may be to technical for a rider who just wants to get out there and do it without calculating rotational inertia formulae in his head at the same time. So what I suggest is that you get to know your own bike: See what it feels like in different corners and at different speeds. Effectively let riding become second nature and leave the whys and where-fores for online argument. :ride: :ride:

[MyGSXF]

Effectively CS comes into play at around 20kph.
The other thing I would add is that to lean the bike for a turn requires some degree of CS.

+1 :niceone:

It works because when you temporarily turn your bike in the opposite, it drops the tyre down on to the side wall, where the circumference is smaller.. & thus it turns. It is important to practice counter stearing! You must first look in the direction you want to go.. ie: look right.. push right.. go right! :yes:

Where you LOOK is where you will go! :niceone:

Find yourself a quiet carpark/tennis courts & practice. Keep your eyes UP at all times, looking ahead of you NOT at the ground.. or you will go down! :confused:

Ride up & down GENTLY pushing on the bars, one side then the other & you will do a gentle weave up the court. As you feel more confident, you can gradually push the bars harder & your weaves will become more pronounced! Take it easy & do it gradually!! :2thumbsup

Find yourself a local mentor & book in some time!! :banana:

oh.. & ENJOY!!!!!!!!!!!! :wari:

[Badjelly]

Then and again, this is a government related publication. They shouldn't put blatantly wrong advise in there. Then and again, this is a government publication. They're not known for being right a lot of the time.

I hate to have to tell you this, but on this one the Government is right. Who woulda thunk it?

[Ixion]

This is one of those things that you do not want to try to work out how it works. Just accept as a matter of faith , which is more than Norman blood, that it does. Except for me: I am so old that it had not been invented when I learned to ride, so none of my older bikes had the countersteering attachment. Consequently, I still disconnect it on my current bikes. I ride so slowly that the device is ineffective anyway.

Only three people have ever understood countersteering : The Prince Consort, who is dead, a German professor who went insane, and Lord Palmerston, who is trapped in a endless countersteering loop between Palmerston and Palmerston North and has not emerged from Q space in the last 100 years (and then only to take a pee and grope the Queen)

[davebullet]

Where you LOOK is where you will go! :niceone:

Find yourself a quiet carpark/tennis courts & practice. Keep your eyes UP at all times, looking ahead of you NOT at the ground.. or you will go down!

That's the single most important thing I reckon. Not only do you look where you want to go, but your eyes use the horizon for balance.

[CookMySock]

That's the single most important thing I reckon. Not only do you look where you want to go, but your eyes use the horizon for balance.This keeping your eyes up is all good, and it would have saved my arse last time I went down in the long grass, but there comes a time to slow down a bit and just enjoy being on a bike rather than cornering it like a jet fighter 24/7. You guys are right in saying "watch the fucken road", but you are missing others' and my point - and that is to fucking slow down and go do your racing on the track, before you kill your ugly self. Again. kthx.

Steve

[Jantar]

....there comes a time to slow down a bit and just enjoy being on a bike rather than cornering it like a jet fighter 24/7. ....

Sometimes, just sometimes, you can come up with something that makes sense. :niceone:

[Maha]

This keeping your eyes up is all good, and it would have saved my arse last time I went down in the long grass, but there comes a time to slow down a bit and just enjoy being on a bike rather than cornering it like a jet fighter 24/7. You guys are right in saying "watch the fucken road", but you are missing others' and my point - and that is to fucking slow down and go do your racing on the track, before you kill your ugly self. Again. kthx.

Steve


I am 100% sure that a massive amount of members on here will never heed what you or Katman and even myself for that matter, say in reguards to how anybody should ride their bike. They will make their own minds up as to how they will treat the road and themsleves while on the bike. There is good advice on here from to time, slowing down isnt one of them it seems, that is up to the individual, its not for anyone to preach, it just wont work.

[Jantar]

Although "slowing down" doesn't need to mean "ride slow". Tomorrow is the Chatto Creek 1000. I'll be aiming for around 17 hours, and to do that I won't need to ride flat out. Keeping to around 100 kmh with 5 fuel stops of 5 minutes each and 1 food stop of 30 minutes is 16 hours 55 minutes.

So all going to plan I'll have a slow ride with a fast time. :ride: :ride: :ride:

[dipshit]

what the fuck are you doing giving riding advice? arnet you the one who promotes looking at the scenery whilst travelling around one of the most notorious routes in the country? and what state is your bike in again?

He is also the fuckwit that forces his kid to ride without any insurance and rides around with his headlight on high beam. Prat.

[98tls]

He is also the fuckwit that forces his kid to ride without any insurance and rides around with his headlight on high beam. Prat. Really?:blink:do tell:jerry:

[dipshit]

Really?:blink:do tell:jerry:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1809433#post1809433

[98tls]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1809433#post1809433 Priceless..........

[Radar]

Hi all,

So, advise, please. Is that correct? If so, how does it work? And how would you suggest somebody tries that the very first time?


Here's my 2cents, FWIW: The term "countersteer" was probably thought up by some academic or ACC type person who was not a bikie. I say FORGET the whole idea of countersteering because it just confuses things. Anyone who rides a bicycle [fast] automatically countersteers - you don't have to think about it since it comes naturally even though when it is analyzed or explained academically, it does not seem to make sense.

On an ACC 'ride safe' DVD Aaron Slight (http://www.aaron-slight.com/home.htm) was asked to explain countersteering and while I forget his exact words, he dismissed the term "countersteer" and said something like "You simply LEAN into the direction you want to go."

One of the biggest difficulties for beginning bikers is to LEAN far enough so that they do not run wide on a curve. It seems as though you will fall over but you won't (unless you have crap tyres and its wet or you hit sand, etc.). My advice is to choose a corner on a quiet road with no traffic and ample visibility, then practice leaning your shoulder into the curve; do this repeatedly until you can get around quickly while leaning as far as you can without freaking out. You may learn how to do this within a short time but many riders find it takes something like 6 months / 6,000 km to lean properly.

Here is a great video (http://www.kossan.se/saeker_paa_mc.htm)showing how far you can lean. I'd love to see someone ride like this for their Basic Skills exam!!

[MyGSXF]

This keeping your eyes up is all good, and it would have saved my arse last time I went down in the long grass, but there comes a time to slow down a bit and just enjoy being on a bike rather than cornering it like a jet fighter 24/7. You guys are right in saying "watch the fucken road", but you are missing others' and my point - and that is to fucking slow down and go do your racing on the track, before you kill your ugly self. Again. kthx.

Who said anything about speed & racing here??? :confused: this is a noobie asking about countersteering! :doh: Keeping your eyes UP & looking to where you want to go, is the most important thing! :niceone:

[98tls]

Who said anything about speed & racing here??? :confused: this is a noobie asking about countersteering! :doh: Keeping your eyes UP & looking to where you want to go, is the most important thing! :niceone: Yep agreed,ive long said the best way to learn to ride a bike is buy a cheap trail bike and go have a play on a riverbed,moving/weight transfer/countersteering etc etc can be easily understood in such circumstances rather painlessly.

[Fatt Max]

Hi Pascale, welcome to KB!

It does seem a bit weird to think you push your handlebars in the wrong direction to turn easily I agree, but it is true, and it does work.

Have a go at this. Take a left hand corner, nice and gentle lean into the turn. Do it a couple of times so you know how to lean around the bend. Now do it again but as you lean put a little bit of gentle pressure on the bar (push it away from yourself) on the clutch side of your bike. Gentle mind as this is actually very effective.

What you will discover is that the bike actually goes around that curve much easier. It really is easy, but takes a bit of practice to perfect. Once you have the skill you will use it without even being aware you are.

Hi Mate and welcome,

Take moms advice on this as it makes sense.

I found this confsing as well but once you get the hang of it you will be sweet.

Take heed of all the other KB'rs out there as well as they really do know the score.

Good luck mate, take it easy :2thumbsup

[-easy--rider-]

i agree that testing it out on the straight is the best. it took me a while to figure it out but you kinda automatcl do it a litle bit

[Conquiztador]

Here's my 2cents, FWIW: The term "countersteer" was probably thought up by some academic or ACC type person who was not a bikie. I say FORGET the whole idea of countersteering because it just confuses things. Anyone who rides a bicycle [fast] automatically countersteers - you don't have to think about it since it comes naturally even though when it is analyzed or explained academically, it does not seem to make sense.

On an ACC 'ride safe' DVD Aaron Slight (http://www.aaron-slight.com/home.htm) was asked to explain countersteering and while I forget his exact words, he dismissed the term "countersteer" and said something like "You simply LEAN into the direction you want to go."

One of the biggest difficulties for beginning bikers is to LEAN far enough so that they do not run wide on a curve. It seems as though you will fall over but you won't (unless you have crap tyres and its wet or you hit sand, etc.). My advice is to choose a corner on a quiet road with no traffic and ample visibility, then practice leaning your shoulder into the curve; do this repeatedly until you can get around quickly while leaning as far as you can without freaking out. You may learn how to do this within a short time but many riders find it takes something like 6 months / 6,000 km to lean properly.

Here is a great video (http://www.kossan.se/saeker_paa_mc.htm)showing how far you can lean. I'd love to see someone ride like this for their Basic Skills exam!!


Well... IMHO countersteering and leaning are two different things. Leaning just happens when on two wheels. You do it to keep from falling over. Countersteering is something you do to place the bike in to the leaning position much faster then by leaning alone, therefore getting around a turn without having to "manhandle" the bike in to a lean.

[Radar]

Well... IMHO countersteering and leaning are two different things. Leaning just happens when on two wheels. You do it to keep from falling over. Countersteering is something you do to place the bike in to the leaning position much faster then by leaning alone, therefore getting around a turn without having to "manhandle" the bike in to a lean.


Yes this is correct, in that you have to actually 'steer' or turn the handlebars (as well as to lean). My point is that this comes naturally, as when riding a bicycle fast (when bicycling slow the handlebars are turned in the direction of travel instead of the opposite way or 'counter' to the direction of travel). For me and some others that I have talked with, it is easier to think in terms of leaning into the curve and this is especially true in early stages of learning how to ride. When a motorcycle is taken around a curve and when the physics of motion are analyzed, countersteering + leaning can make sense - or not, because the whole concept of countersteering is confusing to some people. IMO, the more a beginner LEANS and trusts his bike and tyres in that lean, the less chance of running wide.

[CookMySock]

i agree that testing it out on the straight is the best. it took me a while to figure it out but you kinda automatcl do it a litle bitYes it is automatic, but that is a problem in itself. If you get a fright mid-corner what is ALSO automatic is to countersteer TOWARD the corner, thereby tipping the bike upright - now you will not be going around the corner, but straight out of it and up the bank or over the centreline.

It is imperative that you tune your brain into "countersteer with the bars" mode, so that in such an emergency you revert to steering correctly, rather than picking the bike up and steering straight ahead. So steer with the bars everywhere until its completely natural for you - this sets the basis for so many opportunities for you, mainly one of "safe rider", but also opens the door for the birth of a sportbiker, and not just a commuter.

Next thing to play with is placing your body weight slightly to the inside of the corner. Just before the the corner, slide your butt back, and put your chin and torso to the left or right (inside of the corner) of the windscreen (or some other convenient landmark) and DON'T MOVE IT from there, and then countersteer into the corner - don't forget to look up where you are going, not down at the road. Don't "moto GP" hang off the bike (yet), just get used to not pulling your body back in as the bike starts to lean over. This makes sure your body weight is inside the mass of the bike, not outside it.

Why slide your butt back? Your inside arm needs to be in a straight line to the bar so you can push directly FORWARD on it at the same time as the bar comes backward towards you when the bike begins to take the corner. Yes, the bars turn left in a left hand corner, even though you are pushing forward on the left bar.

Don't try going fast doing this. Just putter around as normal, letting it all settle in.

Steve

[Tank]

He is also the fuckwit that forces his kid to ride without any insurance and rides around with his headlight on high beam. Prat.


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1809433#post1809433

Jezbus DB - no wonder they dont let you become a mentor despite your asking. Getting your kid to ride on the road uninsured because it will make him a better rider - where the hell do you come up with ideas like that???

And where do you get off thinking its OK to HID full beam all the time - dont you know thats dangerous to other road users (like those you are sitting behind??)

[JMemonic]

Hi Pascal and welcome, as you have seen threads here get hijack and mud gets slung fast, counter steering works, no doubt about it, MYGSXF has posted good advice and she should know Jen has done many training courses, you have had some good links to videos posted as well.

Here is a link to the website for the ACC thing that was mentioned, its called ride for ever (http://www.rideforever.co.nz/) if you have not already got the DVD then its worth a look at.

[scumdog]

Who said anything about speed & racing here??? :confused: this is a noobie asking about countersteering! :doh: Keeping your eyes UP & looking to where you want to go, is the most important thing! :niceone:

True.

And I also 'push' down on the inside handle-bar to get more lean angle, dunno if that constitutes 'counter-steering but it works for me.:niceone:

[The Stranger]

Here's my 2cents, FWIW: The term "countersteer" was probably thought up by some academic or ACC type person who was not a bikie. I say FORGET the whole idea of countersteering because it just confuses things. Anyone who rides a bicycle [fast] automatically countersteers - you don't have to think about it since it comes naturally even though when it is analyzed or explained academically, it does not seem to make sense.

On an ACC 'ride safe' DVD Aaron Slight (http://www.aaron-slight.com/home.htm) was asked to explain countersteering and while I forget his exact words, he dismissed the term "countersteer" and said something like "You simply LEAN into the direction you want to go."

One of the biggest difficulties for beginning bikers is to LEAN far enough so that they do not run wide on a curve. It seems as though you will fall over but you won't (unless you have crap tyres and its wet or you hit sand, etc.). My advice is to choose a corner on a quiet road with no traffic and ample visibility, then practice leaning your shoulder into the curve; do this repeatedly until you can get around quickly while leaning as far as you can without freaking out. You may learn how to do this within a short time but many riders find it takes something like 6 months / 6,000 km to lean properly.

Here is a great video (http://www.kossan.se/saeker_paa_mc.htm)showing how far you can lean. I'd love to see someone ride like this for their Basic Skills exam!!

Take the above advice for what it's worth - 2 cents, no more.

The quickest way to change direction is by countersteering and NOT leaning your body. Period!

Your bike must lean (though you need not) however to effect a turn when in motion. The quickest, most effective way to set up that lean is countersteering.

Leaning your body will complement and assist a turn, and when at or near limits may even be necessary.

Learning to ride by leaning alone is to ignore the safest most effective method of controlling your bike for turns and hazard avoidance.

[CookMySock]

And I also 'push' down on the inside handle-bar to get more lean angle, dunno if that constitutes 'counter-steering but it works for me.:niceone:Maybe pushing down might be alright for permanent pootlers who only minimally corner a bike, because they won't have the will power to scrape a peg in a dire situation anyhow, but I don't like it. There is also no path ahead for the motorcyclist to grow, because the technique is fundamentally flawed.

Pushing down does work for small changes in steering, but it's a bad habit to get into, because if you have to swerve hard in an emergency, pushing down will have limited effect, no matter how hard you push. Pushing forward is far more authorative - pushing down is like having a brake that will never work more than half way, so best not to get used to it and do it the proper way instead. But yeah, much willpower, brain reprogramming, and time is required to swerve hard.


Steve

[scumdog]

Maybe pushing down might be alright for permanent pootlers who only minimally a bike, because they won't have the will power to scrape a peg in a dire situation anyhow, but I don't like it. There is also no path ahead for the motorcyclist to grow, because the technique is fundamentally flawed.

Pushing down does work for small changes in steering, but it's a bad habit to get into, because if you have to swerve hard in an emergency, pushing down will have limited effect, no matter how hard you push. Pushing forward is far more authorative - pushing down is like having a brake that will never work more than half way, so best not to get used to it and do it the proper way instead. But yeah, much willpower, brain reprogramming, and time is required to swerve hard.


Steve

My 'push' is at an angle my arm is at normally, so it is kinda down AND forwards, probably more forwards, I found that thinking of it as down was easier than forwards.

Just the wierd way I think I guess...

[The Stranger]

Just the wierd way I think I guess...

No worries Scummy, DB can totally relate to that.

[jrandom]

Maybe pushing down might be alright for permanent pootlers who only minimally a bike, because they won't have the will power to scrape a peg in a dire situation anyhow, but I don't like it. There is also no path ahead for the motorcyclist to grow, because the technique is fundamentally flawed.

Fuck, you're awesome.

Good to see you're not the sort who'll 'only minimally' a bike.

:lol:

[scumdog]

Fuck, you're awesome.

Good to see you're not the sort who'll 'only minimally' a bike.

:lol:

Must be them dang pesky 'minimals' that sneak up and put the damn scrape marks on my mufflers and pegs ehh!!!:blink:

[jrandom]

Must be them dang pesky 'minimals' that sneak up and put the damn scrape marks on my mufflers and pegs ehh!!!:blink:

Is the ground clearance on your Sporty better than the Twin Cam 88 Dyna models?

Cos the clearance on those is just silly. Scritchy, scritchy...

[scumdog]

Is the ground clearance on your Sporty better than the Twin Cam 88 Dyna models?

Cos the clearance on those is just silly. Scritchy, scritchy...

I'm talking about my Superglide T-Sport, the Sporty (CB has it now) was a bit harder to scrape having higher ground-clearance and being narrower - still scraped thought!!:devil2:

[Ixion]

Just one point: Once you are thoroughly accustomed to bikes, and then occasionally drive a cage, do not try to steer the cage by pushing on the steering wheel to counter steer it (Don't instinctively aim for the lane 1a gap, and not bother to slow down, when the motorway locks up, either) DAMHIK.

[Pascal]

I do not think I am going to get this shit kicking grin off my face. I'd forgotten how much fun this was. And yes, that means I passed my learners. Right now. Right now I'm just looking for any excuse to take it out for another ride. How long does it take to empty 2l of milk down the drain?

"Honey, we need milk for tomorrow! I'm just popping down to the dairy!"

Do you guys ever get off?

(Oh, and thanks for the replies thus far. It's been very educational. I am slowly practicing as suggested)

[PrincessBandit]

I do not think I am going to get this shit kicking grin off my face. I'd forgotten how much fun this was. And yes, that means I passed my learners. Right now. Right now I'm just looking for any excuse to take it out for another ride. How long does it take to empty 2l of milk down the drain?

"Honey, we need milk for tomorrow! I'm just popping down to the dairy!"

Do you guys ever get off?

(Oh, and thanks for the replies thus far. It's been very educational. I am slowly practicing as suggested)

Hey congratulations on your pass!!
Probably the majority of us on here will always look for any excuse to get out on our bikes. Unfortunately for me the bloopermarket and dairy are within easy walking distance from my home so my "excuse" to hop on the bike to get stuff is immediately recognised for what it is!
Welcome to KB; you'll find heaps of advice (some of it great, some of it not really helpful, some of it total shit). Also if you spend much time in here you'll find things can get quite personal in the sledging dept. so try not to take too much personally.
On the countersteering side of it, you will probably find yourself doing it automatically as you get more comfortable with riding and the feel of your bike. Some things are best not "over-intellectualised" or you can end up more confused than you were in the first place!!

Dawn

[crystalball]

:cool: leaning is fun everytime im heading for a bend im thinking sweet more practice at perfecting my leaning. Its all good just enter the corner at safe speed and ride it out.you tube have good video clips on helping with leaning to. I got some good imformation from there.
:clap:

[MSTRS]

Hey congratulations on your pass!!
...find yourself doing it automatically as you get more comfortable with riding and the feel of your bike. Some things are best not "over-intellectualised" or you can end up more confused than you were in the first place!!


+1
And remember that the Learner phase means what it says. You will not be able to do anything automatically for ages. But it will come. In the meantime, ride lots, take plenty of breaks (if you go for loooong rides) and keep asking questions.

[discotex]

Do you guys ever get off?


I ride my bike at least twice almost every day. Would ride it more if I didn't have to work.

[Jantar]

Maybe pushing down might be alright for permanent pootlers who only minimally corner a bike, because they won't have the will power to scrape a peg in a dire situation anyhow, but I don't like it. There is also no path ahead for the motorcyclist to grow, because the technique is fundamentally flawed.

Pushing down does work for small changes in steering, but it's a bad habit to get into, because if you have to swerve hard in an emergency, pushing down will have limited effect, no matter how hard you push. Pushing forward is far more authorative - pushing down is like having a brake that will never work more than half way, so best not to get used to it and do it the proper way instead. But yeah, much willpower, brain reprogramming, and time is required to swerve hard.


Steve

Are you really as mentally challenged as you make out? Or is it just a front for trolling?

Simple geometry (primary school level) will tell you that unless your shoulders are directly and verticaly (ie. in line with the forks) over the handle bars then pushing down is pushing forwards at the same time. The mere fact of pushing on the inside bar is counter steering.

I would strongly suggest that you attend a motorcyle riding class of some description before someone starts taking you seriously.

[EJK]

The best way to introduce yourself to countersteering is on a straight road. Choose a long straight country road with no traffic and travel at about 70km/hr, and use only bar pushes to swap from the left to the right side of your lane - start with just gentle pushes on one bar and then the other, and watch the bike instantly respond. Once you "see" this you will find it quite intriguing, and you will have great fun doing it everywhere. It feels cool as well.

What you will have discovered, is that you can actually sit perfectly still on a bike and steer very accurately with only with the bars, so try doing this everywhere you go, until it feels normal. Resist the temptation to apex corners (for now) and concentrate on accurately maintaining your position in your half-lane, until you are the picture of accuracy, and you can choose precisely and exactly the line you will take. Don't try to add speed.

This sets an important mode in your brain - so should you ever get a fright on your bike you will likely revert to countersteering by default, rather than standing the bike upright and going straight ahead. Owch!

And forget all about that "countersteering will make you drop your bike - don't try this at home" crap, that is a lot of bullshit. It is NOT countersteering that will get you in the crap much more quickly at highway speeds.

Hey welcome to KB as well. Have a good time!

Steve

Did you know that you can counter steer on a bicycles aswell? OMG Thats so cool!!!!

[discotex]

Did you know that you can counter steer on a bicycles aswell? OMG Thats so cool!!!!

And guess what... You can also wheelie and stoppie them :msn-wink:

[pritch]

- start with just gentle pushes on one bar and then the other,


I like that "gentle" bit. Good advice.

[Skyryder]

Look where you want to go and forget about everything else. It's called being focused on what you're doing. If ya head is in some other shit like trying to counter steer sooner or later ya going to come to grief. Best advice I can give is ya not on the track trying to win ya on the road trying to stay alive.


Skyryder

[Rodney007]

oh great asking about counter-steering and leaning on this forum is like asking a chicken about eggs..


dont take any advice..... get on your bike and ride it....... get someone to show you how to change gear if you dont know how already

the rest will come naturally... no point activly thinking about countersteer...youl crash

[MSTRS]

oh great asking about counter-steering and leaning on this forum is like asking a chicken about eggs..


dont take any advice..... get on your bike and ride it....... get someone to show you how to change gear if you dont know how already

the rest will come naturally... no point activly thinking about countersteer...youl crash

I know what you are trying to say, but 'taking advice' is exactly what learners need to do...as long as the advice is right. I'm not sure that your post complies...

[Badjelly]

no point actively thinking about countersteer...you'll crash

You know, I've crashed a bike a few times (this is not something I'm proud of, by the way) and never once was "actively thinking about countersteer" a contributing factor.

Some people like to analyse what they're doing. Some don't. You're one of the latter group. Fine.

[johan]

Wow, I thought I had a pretty good understanding of how to flick a bike knee to knee through a chicane, but after reading this thread, I have no doubt only explored the tip of the iceberg. So many techniques I've never heard of before. :crazy:

[MSTRS]

Wow, I thought I had a pretty good understanding of ........

Just wait until the subject turns to tyres....

[davebullet]

I got the following bit of advice recently and reminded myself of my bad looking practices...

One of my fears is leaning too far over. Not that I'll flop on the road, buit fear of a loss of grip and low-siding with the bike sliding out underneath. My mistake is focussing on the road edge - not through the corner to what is called the vanishing point. Looking through this to point and focussing on where you want to position the bike on the road ahead means your brain is busy on getting you to the vanishing point, rather than panicking thinking "oh shit maybe I'm leaned over too far".

Also learn to relax. I'm slowly learning not to newbie death grip as I go around the corner. Doing so only makes your body bounce around if your bike hits a bump which destabilises you. Keep your upper body relaxed.

Hope the above helps. As other's have said, swallow any pride and go on a cruisy group ride or get a mentor. Either way, ask them to follow you and they will give you tips / pointers on all other things - not just countersteering. Following them lets you see the lines they choose.

Cheers,
Dave.

[discotex]

Looking through this to point and focussing on where you want to position the bike on the road ahead means your brain is busy on getting you to the vanishing point, rather than panicking thinking "oh shit maybe I'm leaned over too far".

Good advice. On top of doing this you should make sure you head is parallel to the road not the bike. If it's parallel to the bike you'll feel like you're leaned over more than you really are.

[The Stranger]

oh great asking about counter-steering and leaning on this forum is like asking a chicken about eggs..


dont take any advice..... get on your bike and ride it....... get someone to show you how to change gear if you dont know how already

the rest will come naturally... no point activly thinking about countersteer...youl crash

Yes, ignorance s bliss, too much knowledge is a dangerous thing. Get you killed it will.

[quickbuck]

Did you know that you can counter steer on a bicycles aswell? OMG Thats so cool!!!!
Yup... Amazing how many cyclists don't know how to ride a bike either....

Check out the pic I posted here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=62264&page=3).

Oh, and if you want to pracise without burning up fuel then get the front wheel off your bicycle, spin it up, and try to change it'e direction while holding onto the axle....
Note what happens.

Yep, this is what it takes to change the direction of any Gyro.....
Not you know why halicopter techs are so smart ;)

[robboh]

Ok. First post here. After reading some of this, I just had to!! :eek5:

1) Inline, two wheel, vehicles countersteer to enter a turn at any sort of reasonable speed. Basically, if you are going fast enough to have any lean angle, you will have involuntary countersteer at the turn initiation. You just may not realise it. This is simple physics, its related to gyroscopic effect, and you do it whether you know it or not.

IMHO, one of the biggest mistakes parents make is giving kids a trike prior to teaching them how to ride a push bike. With trikes, as cars, you steer the direction you want to go. With two wheels, you go where you want to go with a combination of lean and countersteer.

In reality, look where you want to go, lean into the corner, and the bike will actually do the countersteer it needs to, and drop into the corner.

However, countersteering as an ACTIVE control (as opposed to relatively passive, as above) is a very useful technique. It allows rapid change of direction (eg to miss something on the road), gives you more accuracy in setting up the bike into a turn, and allows you to get the bike into a turn more rapidly than just trying to move your weight.

The suggestion to do it initially, in a straight line (normal town speed should be fine), is fine. Try it initially with slow, progressive, short pushes on the bar in the direction you want to go and see what happens. EG if you want to veer left, then push on the left bar (taking up the 'slack' with your right arm as that bar comes towards you. EG dont let the other bar flop around, keep it under control). Then try it a little bit faster, and a little bit sharper.

Obviously dont go crazy with your inputs and like everything in bikes, learn to go fast slowly! However, if you arent putting body position or lean into the equation, you can actually be reasonably rough with your countersteering as the gyroscopic effect counteracts the forces you are trying to input.

Have a read of this as well, and the links off of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

HTH
Rob.

[Badjelly]

IMHO, one of the biggest mistakes parents make is giving kids a trike prior to teaching them how to ride a push bike. With trikes, as cars, you steer the direction you want to go. With two wheels, you go where you want to go with a combination of lean and countersteer.

When my daughter was about 8 years old, she was out on a field learning how to ride a bicycle. She'd go for 15 m then turn the handlebars and fall off. She was getting pretty frustrated: "I can't steer it!" I told her not to try to steer it, just let it go where it wanted (there was nothing to run into) and try to keep on top of it. That solved the problem instantly.

[quickbuck]

IMHO, one of the biggest mistakes parents make is giving kids a trike prior to teaching them how to ride a push bike. With trikes, as cars, you steer the direction you want to go. With two wheels, you go where you want to go with a combination of lean and countersteer.



Heck, never thought of that.....
Training wheels promote bad things too...

[Laxi]

just ride the damn thing!!

[BMWST?]

In reality, look where you want to go, lean into the corner, and the bike will actually do the countersteer it needs to, and drop into the corner.



HTH
Rob.

In reality (esp on bigger heavier bikes at speed) i think the countersteer actually initiates the lean....

[quickbuck]

just ride the damn thing!!

Well that's helpful...... No good if you don't know how.

[quickbuck]

In reality (esp on bigger heavier bikes at speed) i think the countersteer actually initiates the lean....

It does on all bikes.
On bigger bikes (well actually bikes with heavier wheels), the forces required are more.

[BMWST?]

It does on all bikes.
On bigger bikes (well actually bikes with heavier wheels), the forces required are more.

good point ,therefore more noticeable i guess...

[quickbuck]

good point ,therefore more noticeable i guess...

Exactly right.

[robboh]

It does on all bikes.
On bigger bikes (well actually bikes with heavier wheels), the forces required are more.

Correct. It is the counter-steer which initiates the turn.

However, you can cause counter-steer (and thus turn initiation) by leaning.

Try it sometime (NICE smooth carpark, slow speed, and lots of room please). Take you hands off the bars a little, to ensure you arent unwittingly applying countersteer (i can guarantee that you do countersteer, without realising it). And then try pressing one or other of your footpegs.

You will probably find it will take more effort than you would exect, but you should be able to cause a turn to initiate with just footpeg pressure. The faster you are going, the harder you will find this, due to the gyroscopic effect. This is why, at higher speeds, and heavier bikes, you will find countersteering becoming a more useful tool. However, for reasons previously stated in this thread, counter-steering is a very useful arrow to have in your quiver.

In flying, this is called secondary effects of controls. Aileron causes yaw as well as roll. Rudder causes roll as well as yaw. Etc.

[MSTRS]

However, you can cause counter-steer (and thus turn initiation) by leaning.


....counter-steering is a very useful arrow to have in your quiver.


As said many times before, to turn at any speed more than approx 15kph, counter steering must occur.
There are two ways to achieve it...
1. Passive...by leaning, or applying peg pressure, or by knee pressure on the tank
2. Positive...by push or pull on the bars.
I assume you mean #2 by '...useful arrow...' ? Because #1 by it's very nature is too relaxed and imprecise. But valuable when used in conjunction with #2, by increasing the effect applied deliberately.

[Supermac Jr]

In reality (esp on bigger heavier bikes at speed) i think the countersteer actually initiates the lean....

I don't understand the CS physics :wacko: and also thought that the CS initiates the turn...

[robboh]

As said many times before, to turn at any speed more than approx 15kph, counter steering must occur.
There are two ways to achieve it...
1. Passive...by leaning, or applying peg pressure, or by knee pressure on the tank
2. Positive...by push or pull on the bars.
I assume you mean #2 by '...useful arrow...' ? Because #1 by it's very nature is too relaxed and imprecise. But valuable when used in conjunction with #2, by increasing the effect applied deliberately.

Very much agree, re: #2.

If you arent going fast enough to need to lean, then the physics dont require countersteer, and the bike will steer like a tricycle.

Lean / knee / peg weight are 'fine tuning' positive actions IMHO. However, if applied by themselves, a countersteer will eventually occur as a secondary effect to your input, and the bike will then initiate a turn. But it will be slow, vague, and unpredictable.

In combination with the bar push-pull, they provide very useful tuning to setting up for the corner, and each (or the relative combinations) will be applicable in different situations.

What I was trying to get at with 'passive' countersteer is that people automatically put in the counter-steer needed to turn if they look where they want to go, drop the inside shoulder a little, and lean into the corner. In other words, just ride the bike.

You dont NEED to know about countersteer to ride a push bike, you just do it without your noticing once your body figured out what was needed subconciously (ie getting your 'balance'). No-one ever told you how to countersteer a pushbike did they?

But without having active countersteering as a tool, you arent really TELLING the bike exactly what to do, if you ride like that. You are just giving vauge wishy-washy 'i think i want to turn' indications to the bike, not positive 'you are turning NOW dammit' actions.

However, KNOWING about 'active' countersteer at the bars (and the secondaries), PRACTISING it, and knowing when/how/why to use it is important IMHO. Probably one of the most important skills to learn when starting to work on improving your riding. Which is why I cant believe there were people being actively told NOT to practise it or use it earlier in this thread.

[quickbuck]

1. Passive...by leaning, or applying peg pressure, or by knee pressure on the tank


I really struggle with these because of this. (http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php)

[discotex]

I really struggle with these because of this. (http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php)

I want a go on the slide bike (http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/slide-bike.php) :eek:

[TerminalAddict]

....It is possible to lean a bike and continue in a straight line (you must use body position as a counterweight) BUT give the 'downhill' bar a nudge forward and the bike will then commence turning in the direction the bike is leaning.

just playing "devils advocate" here .. and waiting for some vodka to wear off .. BUT ...

I agree with you 100% no doubt, but does the opposite apply?
if you lean in one direction, and continue straight using body position as a counter weight, then give the 'UPHILL' bar a nudge .. will the bike turn? and in what direction?

too much science for me to know .. but I'll ponder it for a while :D

[TerminalAddict]

I are the oarsome thread killa .. muwahahahaha

[MSTRS]

I are the oarsome thread killa .. muwahahahaha

No you're not....
Keith Code's final paragraph says it all, succinctly, accurately and incontrovertibly.
Steering a motorcycle results from the process of pushing the inside bar forward, the same angle and direction the forks rotate in the steering head bearings. You can also pull on the outside bar. You can do both push and pull. That is what turns it, that is all that turns it with any degree of accuracy, efficiency, quickness or smoothness. That and only that, No B.S.
And as for your 'devil's advocate'...the countersteer on the bars initiates the turn. If the bike is leaning the wrong for the turn, push/pull the appropriate bar and the bike will reconfigure itself and comply.

[Leyton]

I know this thread is mighty old now but hey..

Get your crappyest bike or cheap fiddy CC trash bike, Find a nice soft grassy hill and get some speed up.

Stay bolt upright, Gentaly push one of the bars away from you and see what happens :)

Expect a turn coming, followed by natural lean, followed by WTF? Oh thats counterstearing.

It also works while you are in the curve, left hand for example, Push on the right bar and it will bring you up streight and set you up for another curve to the right and so on.

Play with it safely on a cycle or something that you will have enough confidence to try it on. Once you have figured out what counterstearing is.. you can forget it :) Most people do it naturaly. On the track you weight shift then use counterstearing to drop you into a corner.

If you watch a small kid riding a bike you will notice he/she is counterstearing from a very young age without even thinking about it :)

Goodluck!

[quickbuck]

.......

If you watch a small kid riding a bike you will notice he/she is counterstearing from a very young age without even thinking about it :)

Goodluck!

Agree with all that you said... But as a kid at a very young age I tended to break my bikes... Yup. Well, used to get lots of punctures.

So I would spin up the wheel and walk around the house turning it into the rooms I was entering....
To do this I needed to put the input 90 degrees from the result.... Hence Counter-steering.

Much cheaper than dropping dads brand spanking new 1976 Honda XL125 ;)

[Leyton]

Agree with all that you said... But as a kid at a very young age I tended to break my bikes... Yup. Well, used to get lots of punctures.

So I would spin up the wheel and walk around the house turning it into the rooms I was entering....
To do this I needed to put the input 90 degrees from the result.... Hence Counter-steering.

Much cheaper than dropping dads brand spanking new 1976 Honda XL125 ;)


Hahaha, You also have a decent valid point :P Yeah kids dont really worry about crapping off :P

[quickbuck]

Hahaha, You also have a decent valid point :P Yeah kids dont really worry about crapping off :P

Sooo ture that!
Didn't wear helmets until we were 15!

And boy we did push the farm bikes to the limit... and beyond!

[quickbuck]

I want a go on the slide bike (http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/slide-bike.php) :eek:

Heck yeah!
As long as it doesn't try to fire me back to my house like my CBR tried to do....

[Leyton]

That certainly looks fun! I heard they are coming to NZ from another post on this forum :)

[PrincessBandit]

Well I don't know what I'm doing wrong then, because I feel the gentle sway through my hips not my upper body when the bike does it's lovely
'swervy' thing.

[quickbuck]

Well I don't know what I'm doing wrong then, because I feel the gentle sway through my hips not my upper body when the bike does it's lovely
'swervy' thing.


Ahhh, Thanks for that. I know what you can try now.

You have to actually drop your shoulder into the corner, and tilt your head to keep your eyes level.
your bike will turn as you are dropping your shoulder in.. Yes, automatically counter-steer as you are propping yourself up against the inside bar.

Check out my photo folder of the NS1 to see what I mean...

[Pascal]

Alright, three months into riding now and I suppose it is time for me to report back.

First off, thank you everyone for all the advise and comments here.

I've been trying this, consciously at first and perhaps overthinking it a bit, but once the practice / reinforcement set in it's amazing how natural it becomes. And it's amazing how easily you can turn doing this. I still don't understand the science behind it, but that's not necessary for me.

All I can say it's amazing how effective and easily you can turn doing it. But Mom was right in the beginning, best to practice it slowly and gently. I started off coming down Mt Albert road where they have the gentle undulation of the road around the bicycle lanes. (Near Sandringham road) It's an easy place to start practicing it with very, very gentle curves to get the feel for it.

But once you get into it, just ... wow! Now I want a bike that doesn't actually scrape pegs through corners!

[smitty]

I know this thread is mighty old now but hey..

Get your crappyest bike or cheap fiddy CC trash bike, Find a nice soft grassy hill and get some speed up.

Stay bolt upright, Gentaly push one of the bars away from you and see what happens :)

Expect a turn coming, followed by natural lean, followed by WTF? Oh thats counterstearing.

It also works while you are in the curve, left hand for example, Push on the right bar and it will bring you up streight and set you up for another curve to the right and so on.

Play with it safely on a cycle or something that you will have enough confidence to try it on. Once you have figured out what counterstearing is.. you can forget it :) Most people do it naturaly. On the track you weight shift then use counterstearing to drop you into a corner.

If you watch a small kid riding a bike you will notice he/she is counterstearing from a very young age without even thinking about it :)

Goodluck!


Like you say, its done without thinking about it. Learners on a 250 or kids on a bicycle will countersteer without reading how to do it. Some learners will naturally be afraid to lean their bikes far enough. It takes time for some learners to trust their tyres so they can lean far enough into a curve.

Someone above said that you can lean a bike and still go in a straight line, well I tried that awhile back and no way I could keep going straight. When I leaned the bike a little, the bike no longer went straight. I did this on a straight dry rural road with no traffic by the way.

[MSTRS]

Someone above said that you can lean a bike and still go in a straight line, well I tried that awhile back and no way I could keep going straight. When I leaned the bike a little, the bike no longer went straight. I did this on a straight dry rural road with no traffic by the way.

Ah, that would be me. And I stand by what I said. You didn't counteract the lean with your body position, did you?

[smitty]

Ah, that would be me. And I stand by what I said. You didn't counteract the lean with your body position, did you?

Can't remember what exactly I did but I tried to change body position and still could not go straight. I know that someone could probably 'counteract the lean' as you say but to put it in context of this thread it is my belief that learners need to lean more rather than get hung up on the theory or science of countersteering. Next time I get on a straight safe road I will try to 'counteract the lean' and go straight.

[grusomhat]

Ah, that would be me. And I stand by what I said. You didn't counteract the lean with your body position, did you?

Much easier to practice on a push-bike, get the lean on and stand up right.

[MSTRS]

Can't remember what exactly I did but I tried to change body position and still could not go straight. I know that someone could probably 'counteract the lean' as you say but to put it in context of this thread it is my belief that learners need to lean more rather than get hung up on the theory or science of countersteering. Next time I get on a straight safe road I will try to 'counteract the lean' and go straight.

It's easy.
Fig 1 + 2 - Push down or forward on the indicated bar and that's the way you lean/turn
Fig 3 - Lean the bike or body only (without input on the bars) and you keep going straight

[CookMySock]

You can ride the bike in a straight line with it tilted to one side. Simply travel along a straight road and lean your body to the left, and push on the right bar. You body will be tilted to the left, and the bike will be tilted to the right. Algebraic sum = vertical.

This is a way bike crashes happen. Rider tips the bike into corner, gets fright, sits up straight, pushes bike down until it scrapes its pegs, sits up further, bike goes in straight line. Rider dies.

There should be no leaning going on as far as the learner rider is concerned, unless you are deliberately making sure your body mass is inside the motorcycles centre of mass for the purpose of conserving the angle of lean. If you didn't understand that description, then you are better not to screw around with "leaning" until you have had some training, and just steer with the bars. If you want to play with leaning, then put your shoulders and chin to the left or the right side of the windscreen before you enter the corner, and leave them there until you are clear of the corner.

Steve

[Leyton]

the bike no longer went straight. I did this on a straight dry rural road with no traffic by the way.

You can do this by countering :), The guys who hang of there bikes to setup for a corner are countering there weight by counter steering slightly :)

[quickbuck]

You can do this by countering :), The guys who hang of there bikes to setup for a corner are countering there weight by counter steering slightly :)

Well, by counter steering (in this case), I'm hoping you mean turning in toward the turn?
If not then sorry, you have missed the dynamics of motorcycle steering...
If you do, than carry on.....
Confusing term really.

I remember an ex WSB rider (Kiwi) mentioning on a DVD that people should forget about all the talk of counterstreering and just turn the motorcycle....
This is fine, providing you understand fully what is going on.

Some look at it as Push Down on the inside bar. The resulting effort (action) on the motorcycle is to turn the front wheel out of the turn.....

[discotex]

Some look at it as Push Down on the inside bar. The resulting effort (action) on the motorcycle is to turn the front wheel out of the turn.....

While we're being pedantic you should probably amend that to "push forward" on the bar not "push down".

Pushing down 100% vertically on the bars would not achieve the desired result at all.

I believe Layton was trying to explain what happens pre-turn when you hang off. I.e. you actually use countersteering to lean the bike the wrong way to counter your weight which is off the other side (so the net result is going straight). You then countersteer the bike into the turn when you're ready. Total over analysis but correct none the less.

[Leyton]

Well, by counter steering (in this case), I'm hoping you mean turning in toward the turn?
If not then sorry, you have missed the dynamics of motorcycle steering...
If you do, than carry on.....
Confusing term really.


Erm, I am sure I have not missed anything...