MotoGP's 250cc replacement class: The technical rules

[Cajun]

This just in from the FIM:

FIM Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix
Replacement Regulations for 250cc Class as from 2011 (Moto2)

The Grand Prix Commission, composed of Messrs. Carmelo Ezpeleta (Dorna, Chairman), Claude Danis (FIM), Hervé Poncharal (IRTA) and Takanao Tsubouchi (MSMA), in the presence of M. Paul Butler (Secretary of the meeting), in a meeting held yesterday in Barcelona, unanimously decided to introduce the following amendments to the Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix Regulations - application as from 2011.


Replacement Regulation for 250cc Class from 2011 (Moto2)


Technical Regulations:

1. Engine

1.1 4-stroke engines only.
1.2 Engine capacity: maximum 600cc.
1.3 4 cylinders maximum.
1.4 No oval pistons.
1.5 Engines must be normally aspirated. No turbo-charging, no super-charging.
1.6 Engine speed limited to maximum: 16,000 rpm. 4-cylinder engines
15,500 rpm. 3-cylinder engines
15,000 rpm. 2-cylinder engines
An electronic system supplied by the Organisers will be permanently attached to monitor and control
engine speed.
1.7 Pneumatic valve operation is not permitted.
1.8 Inlet and Exhaust valves must be of conventional type (reciprocating poppet valves).
1.9 Variable valve timing or variable valve lift systems are not permitted.
1.10 Only wet-sump type engine lubrication systems are permitted.
1.11 Minimum weight of complete engine with throttle body, dry:
53 kg 4-cylinder
50 kg 3-cylinder
47 kg 2 cylinder

2. Inlet & Fuel System

2.1 Variable-length inlet tract systems are not permitted.
2.2 Only one throttle control valve per cylinder is permitted. No other moving devices are permitted in the
inlet tract before the engine intake valve.
2.3 Throttle bodies will have a maximum internal diameter (must be perfectly circle except for the area of
dent or groove to allow the injector to come out) at engine side out-let of:
42 mm for 4-cylinder
48 mm for 3-cylinder
59 mm for 2-cylinder
2.4 Fuel injectors will be restricted to a defined type (tba, based on cost).
2.5 Fuel pressure must not exceed 5.0 bar.
2.6 No artificial cooling of intake air or fuel.
2.7 Only air or air/fuel mixture is permitted in the induction tract and combustion chamber.
2.8 No direct fuel injection into the cylinder/head/combustion chamber.
2.9 Fuel specification will be for standard unleaded fuel (commercially available EU-compliant "pump fuel").

3. Exhaust system

3.1 Variable length exhaust systems are not permitted.
3.2 Noise limit will be a maximum of 120 dB/A, measured in a static test.


4. Transmission

4.1 A maximum of 6 gearbox speeds is permitted.
4.2 A maximum of 3 alternate gear ratios for each gearbox speed, and 2 alternate ratios for the primary
drive gear is permitted. Teams will be required to declare the gearbox ratios for each gear used at the
beginning of the season.
4.3 Electro-mechanical or electro-hydraulic clutch actuating systems are not permitted.

5. Ignition, Electronics & Data-Logging

5.1 Data logger system will be supplied by the series Organizer.
5.2 Only the ECU/fuel injection control units supplied by the series Organiser are allowed to be fitted
to the motorcycle. Electronic control units include the timing transponder, engine RPM control,
and datalogger systems. No other electronic control or datalogging systems will be allowed on the
motorcycle.
The price of ECU unit made by each engine manufacturer must be equal to or less than
JPY75,000 (about Euro650).

6. Chassis

6.1 Chassis will be a prototype, the design and construction of which is free within the constraints of the
FIM Grand Prix Technical Regulations. The frame, swing-arm, fuel tank, seat and cowling are
forbidden to use from a non-prototype as series production road-going motorcycle.
6.2 Minimum Total Weight: 135kg for 4-cylinder
130kg for 3-cylinder
125kg for 2-cylinder
6.3 No carbon brake discs.

7. Wheels & Tyres

7.1 No carbon composite wheels.
7.2 The maximum permitted wheel rim width is: Front 4.00"
Rear 6.00" or 6.25"
7.3 The only permitted wheel rim diameter is: Front 17"
Rear 17"
7.4 The number of slick tyres allocated to each rider per event will be controlled.

8. Materials & Construction

8.1 Construction materials will be limited to exclude expensive "non-conventional" materials and
manufacturing methods (a list will be issued).
8.2 The following components must be made from iron-based alloys:
Valve springs, camshafts, crankshafts, connecting rods, piston pins, brake discs.
8.3 Engine crankcases and cylinder heads must be made from cast aluminium alloys.
8.4 Pistons must be made from an aluminium alloy.

9. General

9.1 Number of machines: the team can scrutineer only one motorcycle per rider.
9.2 Number of engines: a maximum of 2 complete engines per rider is permitted at any event. Teams will
be required to register engine serial numbers at Technical Control on the day before the first practice.
9.3 Apart from the above regulations, all other construction criteria, dimensions and specifications are as
per the FIM Grand Prix Regulations.

9.4 The engine (excluding exhaust, throttle bodies and ECU) used in a race is available to be purchased
by another competitor in the same race for a fixed price of ?20,000 (Euro). Such purchase request
must be made in writing to Race Direction within the protest period, that is within 60 minutes after the
official end of the race. The transaction and delivery will be completed immediately at the end of the
60 minute protest period and will be underwritten by IRTA. Teams refusing to sell when presented
with a valid request will be disqualified.

----------------------------------------
Have your say.

[codgyoleracer]

Engine buy back rule is pretty interesting

[CHOPPA]

Did i miss it or did it not say anything about being an inline 4...?

[Cajun]

Did i miss it or did it not say anything about being an inline 4...?

can be 4 or 3 or 2 cylinders no turbos or super chargers allowed tho )c: <, but worse of all no more smell of two smokes

[racerhead]

I really cant see this being all that different than current super sport racing. I know the bikes will be totaly different but at the end of the day the 250's were 2stroke and were built for all out corner speed where the 4 stroke 600's will be more straight line power.
Still though Im looking forward to seeing what they actually go like once they start getting out on track.

[lostinflyz]

theres nothing in there that i spotted about not being production based. and with those values and the claiming rule i imagine it will end up being very toyed up production motors, as there is no incentive to spend any money on an engine.

[Oscar]

theres nothing in there that i spotted about not being production based. and with those values and the claiming rule i imagine it will end up being very toyed up production motors, as there is no incentive to spend any money on an engine.

MotoGP would prefer engines be production based.

[CHOPPA]

So potentially we could see v4s...

[Oscar]

MotoGP's Technical Director will be here in a coupla weeks.
Any questions you wanna ask, post them here.

[Cajun]

MotoGP's Technical Director will be here in a coupla weeks.
Any questions you wanna ask, post them here.

yeah one question or more statment 'WE WANT 2 STROKES'

that is all

He holidaying in nz for xmas oscar?

[lostinflyz]

so potentially we will see supersport racing with different chassis. wow! who thinks dorna (im assuming its dorna) aint lookin for a fight with FG and the sbk guys.

[Oscar]

yeah one question or more statment 'WE WANT 2 STROKES'

that is all

He holidaying in nz for xmas oscar?

He is a NZer and usually turns up between Xmas and New Year.

We're going for a ride - Hamilton to Wellington by gravel/sand/mud/dirt/(anything but seal).

[racerhead]

so potentially we will see supersport racing with different chassis. wow! who thinks dorna (im assuming its dorna) aint lookin for a fight with FG and the sbk guys.

Ive read an interview with the head of sgs sports who are the crowd that run WSBK and WSS and he is not happy about it because as far as he's concerned they have the exclusive rights to production based racing and he feels that dornas decision on replacing the 250's with 600's is in breach of the rights.

[Oscar]

Ive read an interview with the head of sgs sports who are the crowd that run WSBK and WSS and he is not happy about it because as far as he's concerned they have the exclusive rights to production based racing and he feels that dornas decision on replacing the 250's with 600's is in breach of the rights.

That's why the word "prototype" is in the chassis regulations, and in particular, this:


The frame, swing-arm, fuel tank, seat and cowling are
forbidden to use from a non-prototype as series production road-going motorcycle.

Not great English, but that's the bit to keep WSBK out of the lawyers office.

[henry]

They have lost the plot :(

[racerhead]

This could end up to make a great race series thats totally different to the WSS but think Im just going to have to wait and see because at the minute I cant see enough of a difference between the two classes.

That and I have a soft spot for 2 strokes:love:

[racerhead]

So potentially we could see v4s...

Yes, potentially we could see a V4 but doubtful when most manufacturers will already have a certain amount of R&D on inline 4's or V twins so they will more than likley use this as a base.

Also what manufacturers are signed up for this so far? I remember seeing a list before but can't seem to find it now

[johan]

Would it make any sense to make a motor with less than 4 cylinders when the maximum engine displacement is the same for all configurations?
Also, less revs allowed the fever cylinders you have.

[k14]

Yes, potentially we could see a V4 but doubtful when most manufacturers will already have a certain amount of R&D on inline 4's or V twins so they will more than likley use this as a base.

Also what manufacturers are signed up for this so far? I remember seeing a list before but can't seem to find it now
Huh? Honda, suzuki and ducati all have motogp bikes (only 200cc more) with v4 configurations, so they could just as likely build one of them!

[racerhead]

Huh? Honda, suzuki and ducati all have motogp bikes (only 200cc more) with v4 configurations, so they could just as likely build one of them!

Yes I know this but these engines will be built to a totally different spec to the moto gp ones. And the idea of this series is to cut costs so I dont think the motogp technology will be reliable enough in the long run.

[Cajun]

Huh? Honda, suzuki and ducati all have motogp bikes (only 200cc more) with v4 configurations, so they could just as likely build one of them!

yes but if you look at above rules, alot of those engines would never work, all the fancy stuff in motogp bikes not allowed to be used in these bikes.

look at the price of the ecu they are allowed, (which is jackshit really price wise, my yoshi em-pro is worth that sorta figure

[Cajun]

9.4 The engine (excluding exhaust, throttle bodies and ECU) used in a race is available to be purchased
by another competitor in the same race for a fixed price of ?20,000 (Euro). Such purchase request
must be made in writing to Race Direction within the protest period, that is within 60 minutes after the
official end of the race. The transaction and delivery will be completed immediately at the end of the
60 minute protest period and will be underwritten by IRTA. Teams refusing to sell when presented
with a valid request will be disqualified.

This is another thing i like to raise, i didn't really pick it up first time, but re-reading the rules i noticed it

This is starting to pop up in alot of rules for racing, means buy a faster riders bike, and learn there secrets.

[slowpoke]

That's a pretty low rev limit for a 4 cylinder 600. Dare I say it we might actually see some supersport bikes with a bit of midrange appearing on the shop floor in a few years time.

Realistically 250GP's have been an Aprilia Cup series recently with a late appearance by KTM, so I'm looking forward to seeing a bit of variation again.

The engine cost limitation has been nicely done too I reckon, which will mean lots of smaller teams are effectively able to compete with the bigger teams if they are smart enough. Bye bye 2 strokes, but I'm liking the sound of it at the moment.

[lostinflyz]

Realistically 250GP's have been an Aprilia Cup series recently with a late appearance by KTM, so I'm looking forward to seeing a bit of variation again.
.

variation, what variation. everyone will have the same motor (unless there ignorant) the frames will then have to generally match the motor and if you all have smart engineers the fairing design should be rather similar.

its basically WSS with a claiming rule on engines. and everyone will use ten kate cbr600 motors. so its a cbr600 cup. theoretically of course.

[slowpoke]

variation, what variation. everyone will have the same motor (unless there ignorant) the frames will then have to generally match the motor and if you all have smart engineers the fairing design should be rather similar.

its basically WSS with a claiming rule on engines. and everyone will use ten kate cbr600 motors. so its a cbr600 cup. theoretically of course.

Nup, don't think so, not at this early stage. Check out a Honda Sp1/2, then check out a Bakker framed Sp1/2 or a Durbahn SP1/2 (anything Durbahn for that matter) all completely different beasts with completely different ways of going about the same task. Or a Bimota vs it's donor Ducati, Suzuki/ Yamaha bikes. This could be something pretty special.

Early days to be rubbishing it without a single bike made.

[Aragorn]

It was a sad day when they annouced the end of 250GP great bikes and class, but will be interesting to see how these 600's come out in the end, who knows could have them on our shores too

[lostinflyz]

Nup, don't think so, not at this early stage. Check out a Honda Sp1/2, then check out a Bakker framed Sp1/2 or a Durbahn SP1/2 (anything Durbahn for that matter) all completely different beasts with completely different ways of going about the same task. Or a Bimota vs it's donor Ducati, Suzuki/ Yamaha bikes. This could be something pretty special.

Early days to be rubbishing it without a single bike made.

true. but all those are road going creations designed with lots of different elements. not just speed. and the yama/suzuki have complete diff motors (outside both having 4 cylinders in a line) so the frame will be made round the motor.

but yes you are right im slagging it off only cause its making an identical class that we have already but flogging it off as something else. however i will wait to see how she goes.

[rsnut]

The rev limit will be the big thing - easy changed by the organiser if they are slower than the 125's ! :buggerd:

I'm with k14 on the engines, if - its a big if - the manufacturers get on board, there's plenty of good engine configurations around in MotoGP that could easily be adapted. Most of the fancy bits are there for the high rev's of the 800's, less exotic materials would do the job at these low rev's. Besides magnesium, titanium & other alloys are now pretty common in road bikes. As for the engine ECU - software is only code & is therefore free, so fancy mapping will be all on.

I'll depend a lot the manufacturers getting in though. I expect Aprillia, KTM & maybe Ducati, Triumph ? along some of the Japanese. But what is in it for them ?

Its a big gap to fill from 125's to MotoGp but in bike mad countries like Spain they could make it happen.

I love the 2-strokes but this the makings something pretty good - MotoGp may even have to come down to 600 from 800 if they keep getting faster. Maybe a common platform with different bits & rev limits in time to come ?

[lostinflyz]

The rev limit will be the big thing - easy changed by the organiser if they are slower than the 125's ! :buggerd:

I'm with k14 on the engines, if - its a big if - the manufacturers get on board, there's plenty of good engine configurations around in MotoGP that could easily be adapted. Most of the fancy bits are there for the high rev's of the 800's, less exotic materials would do the job at these low rev's. Besides magnesium, titanium & other alloys are now pretty common in road bikes. As for the engine ECU - software is only code & is therefore free, so fancy mapping will be all on.

I'll depend a lot the manufacturers getting in though. I expect Aprillia, KTM & maybe Ducati, Triumph ? along some of the Japanese. But what is in it for them ?

Its a big gap to fill from 125's to MotoGp but in bike mad countries like Spain they could make it happen.

I love the 2-strokes but this the makings something pretty good - MotoGp may even have to come down to 600 from 800 if they keep getting faster. Maybe a common platform with different bits & rev limits in time to come ?

from an engineering standpoint all that is being done in motogp would be irrelavant. The design of most engine parts is determined as a basis of the inherent strengths (and weaknesses) of the construction material. so you would have to completly redesign an engine to use not soo special values, rod, cranks ect.

with the cost limit on engines it isn't worth building an engine. if you use one engineer for a year you have already blown the budget for building an engine. and you havent built it yet. so the only option is to go production and bolt a few bits too it. i imagine that ten kate may well spend what 10 grand per motor?? i dunno.

I can actually see the claiming rule getting abused by current 250 teams. I mean theres obviously those that have the budget of a couple of million. and thats just bike. So you could slowly add bits to a motor and let the competition take the old one so you keep advancing. it would be stupidly expensive and require large amounts of planning but theres no harm in it. actually if you were really deviant you could design a motor to be destructible on the cool down lap. make it super fast then blow it up so no one knows your secrets.

man i should go work in f1. hahahaha.

[roy.nz]

Sounds good i cant wait to see them in action :rockon:

[gammaguy]

so much for Moto GP being an arena for the cutting edge of development,and racing for racings sake.those days are obviously long gone,after all Crosby walked away from it for those reasons over two decades ago,so the rot set in ,although we had the "glory years"with names such as Gardner,Doohan,Schwantz and Rainey since then.

It is now a thinly disguised ass kissing to the Japanese Big four,and Ducati,(although IMHO the Desmosedici is the only true pioneering cutting edge machine out there,sure its now a road bike but a limited edition one and who wouldnt want to own one.)with the occasional interloper(aprilia,Modenas)thrown in for comedy/novelty value.

Mr Ecclestone has just sold out a little bit at a time,hoping we wont notice.

leave the proddy based stuff to WSBK

lets have innovation,bravery and pure racing again.

Even Valentino would agree with me here:WE NEED THE TWO STROKES

rave over

sedation time:doctor:

[rsnut]

lostinflyz - I don't see an engine cost mentioned, only a protest sell price to a direct competitor. Many companies have sold units below cost to achieve homolgation before. Also the engine design work is not a direct cost of the engine, it could be just R&D, the cost would only be for the actual bits. That's what I meant by it's a big if for the manufacturers to get in - they would have to carry this R&D cost. Yes, there is re-design to use lower spec. materials but for MotoGp manufacturers they will have a lot of this data.
I do agree though the budgets are big for these teams - to lease an (uncompetitive) 10 year old 250 is > 100k Euro !

Colin Chapman (Lotus F1) had the saying - if the car didn't break on the slow down lap it was over designed.

Time will tell what this class turns into hopefully racing as good as we have seen in 250's in the past.

[CHOPPA]

I cant understand all you guys saying its like supersport racing it should be cutting edge etc etc thats like saying oh the 250gp class is just like saying oh its an rgv250 cup lol

And whats cutting edge about 2 strokes? What good is that technology to us..?

[Shaun P]

I think it will be good when the day comes that we can buy purpose built race bikes for racing as a spin off from development rather than a compromised road/race bike that needs alot of mods. Who really needs 160-200 HP on the road anyway?
With the popularity of track riding I can see it workin

[CHOPPA]

I think it will be good when the day comes that we can buy purpose built race bikes for racing as a spin off from development rather than a compromised road/race bike that needs alot of mods. Who really needs 160-200 HP on the road anyway?
With the popularity of track riding I can see it workin

Yeah for sure, you would think they could make them the same price as a road bike, instead of putting all that money into extra wiring, lights, paint etc they could put decent suspension on, yamaha owns ohlins so it shouldnt be that hard!

[lostinflyz]

lostinflyz - I don't see an engine cost mentioned, only a protest sell price to a direct competitor. Many companies have sold units below cost to achieve homolgation before. Also the engine design work is not a direct cost of the engine, it could be just R&D, the cost would only be for the actual bits. That's what I meant by it's a big if for the manufacturers to get in - they would have to carry this R&D cost. Yes, there is re-design to use lower spec. materials but for MotoGp manufacturers they will have a lot of this data.
I do agree though the budgets are big for these teams - to lease an (uncompetitive) 10 year old 250 is > 100k Euro !

Colin Chapman (Lotus F1) had the saying - if the car didn't break on the slow down lap it was over designed.

Time will tell what this class turns into hopefully racing as good as we have seen in 250's in the past.

yes a manufacturer will come along and build a motor. but there is no incentive to develop said motor once its there. unless someone else does which is aimless cause theres no real advantage to be gained (except maybe at the very end of a season.)

any money spent on building the motor will be instant knowledge given to the opposition. therefore by logic money will be spent on all other areas. i imagine quite specifically alot of money on aero testing (both wind tunnel and cfd) as its still the most under developed region of a motorcycle, in my opinion.

i like colin chapmans quote. a very bright guy he is. however in motogp the extreme engine tuning of old f1 doesn't exist. soo sad. i wouldn't mind seeing someone like stoner or hayden going for a lap on a qualifying engine. pumping out 250+ odd ponies i imagine and would blow on about lap #7. awesome.

[eelracing]

I think it will be good when the day comes that we can buy purpose built race bikes for racing as a spin off from development rather than a compromised road/race bike that needs alot of mods. Who really needs 160-200 HP on the road anyway?
With the popularity of track riding I can see it workin

They used to,TZ 750/700/500/250...oh right im living in the past.

Real (production)race bikes tho.

[roogazza]

They used to,TZ 750/700/500/250...oh right im living in the past.

Real (production)race bikes tho.

Yamaha, must have sold truck loads of TZ 250/350's over the years.....? Gaz.

[slowpoke]

I think it will be good when the day comes that we can buy purpose built race bikes for racing as a spin off from development rather than a compromised road/race bike that needs alot of mods. Who really needs 160-200 HP on the road anyway?
With the popularity of track riding I can see it workin

They already kinda do. Honda produce(d) the SP1 (and maybe SP2) and CBR600RR in "Basic Racer" format. They're fitted with a race exhaust system, race wiring loom and no street gear. A couple have come through on Tard Me.

Of course, if you've got deep pockets you turn to the HRC catalogue and it tells you exactly what to remove, what/where to cut and what to buy/fit to suit WSBK or JSB etc series. Right down to head porting, trimming the cases to fit the slipper clutch etc etc. I've got one of these manuals for a CBR1000RR and it couldn't be much simpler to build an amazing machine....if you can afford it.

Fabien Foret (ex-WSS champion) tested the latest road going CBR600RR and reckoned it was good enough to compete in National level competition's in stock form. Realistically these are already racebikes that we choose to use on the road. But yeah, I know what you mean, something like a cheaper Guzzi MGS-01 would be just the ticket, eh?


Yamaha, must have sold truck loads of TZ 250/350's over the years.....? Gaz.

Performance Bike magazine had an article earlier in the year (or maybe last year?) on the latest TZ250 someone in the UK had bought direct from the factory. I didn't think you could still buy 'em, but there it was. Fuggin' beautiful thing.

[CHOPPA]

[quote=slowpoke;1848934]

Fabien Foret (ex-WSS champion) tested the latest road going CBR600RR and reckoned it was good enough to compete in National level competition's in stock form.
quote]

Fabien Foret would get a good ol spanking if he tried to race that in the australian national supersport class

[Shaun P]

They already kinda do. Honda produce(d) the SP1 (and maybe SP2) and CBR600RR in "Basic Racer" format. They're fitted with a race exhaust system, race wiring loom and no street gear. A couple have come through on Tard Me.

.

interesting didnt know that, be good if you could opt for the race and street version in all road race machines

[CHOPPA]

interesting didnt know that, be good if you could opt for the race and street version in all road race machines

If you live in japan you probably could but there not available anywhere else unless its imported privately, there was a guy that was doing some 2008 R1s last year as basic racers but there werent really all they were is road bikes without lights, we need the equivalent of a MX race bike that can be raced by a pro motocross rider in completely stock form and be competitive

[gammaguy]

I cant understand all you guys saying its like supersport racing it should be cutting edge etc etc thats like saying oh the 250gp class is just like saying oh its an rgv250 cup lol

And whats cutting edge about 2 strokes? What good is that technology to us..?


here we go again-the relevance issue.

the bikes havent always been relevant,it used to be racing for racings sake,although a huge amount of the technology used filtered down to the road.

it wasnt all about making two stroke road bikes,just the best way of getting a race bike to perform.just because they are a two stroke engine that does not make them irrelevant,their motive power is only a small part of the equation.

i suppose Rainey.Lawson,Gardner,Doohan,and so many others were boring to watch because their bikes were not relevant to road bikes?

truth is,like most things,it just political and has nothing to do with the best engine for the job.

[nudemetalz]

With the twin/ triple/ four formula, I can't see anything but fours.
The twin or even the triple slight weight advantage isn't going to make it that competitive, IMO.
They would need to have a bigger capacity (750-2, 675-3) to work.

Aprilia tried it with the RS-Cube triple in MotoGP and didn't really get anywhere (I know that the ECU was mostly to blame but you get the idea).

[steveyb]

http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/motogp-an-hour-with-carmelo-ezpeleta-part-i/

[SPman]

He is a NZer and usually turns up between Xmas and New Year.

We're going for a ride - Hamilton to Wellington by gravel/sand/mud/dirt/(anything but seal).
His surnames not Sinclair, is it?

[Oscar]

His surnames not Sinclair, is it?

Mike Webb.

[scracha]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZz. No innovation. No V6 400's revving to 25000rpm. No 16.5" wheels. Yawn. No wonder the WSBK guys are pissed.

[slowpoke]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZz. No innovation. No V6 400's revving to 25000rpm. No 16.5" wheels. Yawn. No wonder the WSBK guys are pissed.

The Aprilia's that 90% of the field run and aging Honda's are hardly revolutionary, they made two strokes like this decades ago, albeit in far less refined form.

It could be good. Carbon fibre monococques, ducati-esque trellis frames, carved from billet alloy beam frames will all be on display I reckon. We'll see more diversification as a result of not having to go cap in hand to Aprilia begging for something that still isn't competitive with a works bike.

[nudemetalz]

The Aprilia's that 90% of the field run and aging Honda's are hardly revolutionary, they made two strokes like this decades ago, albeit in far less refined form.



But wasn't it a Gilera that won the 250's this year....... :lol:
Yes I know, it's an Aprilia in drag....

[Teambwr47]

The 250cc two strokes, sadly, have been dead in the water for way too long and should have been replaced at least 2 seasons ago if not more.

Personally I love the likes of the modern RS and TZ 250's and will regret not having raced one when, in the UK at least, they were still a full National class.

The 600cc Moto2 class will bring out bikes that'll trounce WSS 600's in lap times and while its a shame they have not been given more of a free hand on some of the rules motor wise I think we may see more of the bikes filtering out to National series that may spring up around the World as a result.

We can but hope.

[lostinflyz]

good to see CEV (the spanish people) are hoping to run moto2 rules in 09. hopefully is they fill the grid it will give us an indication of what the class will be like.

[Cleve]

With the twin/ triple/ four formula, I can't see anything but fours.
The twin or even the triple slight weight advantage isn't going to make it that competitive, IMO.
They would need to have a bigger capacity (750-2, 675-3) to work.

Aprilia tried it with the RS-Cube triple in MotoGP and didn't really get anywhere (I know that the ECU was mostly to blame but you get the idea).

but can't the triples and twins rev higher as well.
That MIGHT make it closer. It is a very low rev limit for 4's. Possibly be good in the future for development of more torque at lower rev's for smaller road bikes.
Overall I am not going to be quick to condemn this idea.
If the bikes are sexy, the racing close and there are fields of bikes racing close (kind of like WSBK) then I will be happy.

[Ivan]

I reckon youl be surprised what the twins can do they are low revving compared to the 4 as stated and produce a shit load of torque any way so a Vtwin would suit the class fine.

A triple would also do depends what circuits you were running would be the advantage to I mean Phillip Island the 4 Cylinder would probly be the better bike but at a track such as Indianapolas the twin or triple would be well more suited

[Brian d marge]

I think its a brilliant set of rules , The buy back came from ( I think ) the Swedish car racing where a nominal value is set on a vehicle and anyone can buy it for that price , works a treat there

As an Engineer, GREAT set of rules ,, There is a raft of things you could do ...such as,,,... if someone knows my secrets ( any engineer worth their salt pretty much knows what is going on in the other team , even by looking at the engine ) ....well I will have to step my game up ,

As a feeder series , brilliant , for both Engineers and riders,,,all the important bits were nailed down, such as RPM, and size and weight ...great stuff

Its going to be a great class to watch ,,,,and if Rossi was a racer... THATS the class I would move to


Stephen

[MXNUT]

9.4 The engine (excluding exhaust, throttle bodies and ECU) used in a race is available to be purchased
by another competitor in the same race for a fixed price of ?20,000 (Euro).

I am a 2 stroke fan from way back, but as has been said here already their time has come and gone, as none of the manufacturers are investing any time or money in development anymore.

The rest of the rules look good for developing good racing in a close and affordable class, other than the one above.

I cant see any manufacturer or large team for that matter spending any time or effort on engine R & D, to then have their work handed over to another competitor at the end of the race.

I know they want to keep costs down but if there is little or no freedom for the designers to be creative then it will be just a glorified 600 supersport class with bikes that Joe public cant identify with ( M1 - RC211V etc... ) :confused: