Rob Gilchrist of Christchurch - you are scum

[RantyDave]

Mr Gilchrist is, apparently, merely one of a whole network of police informants currently spying on the such deadly threads as greenpeace and animal rights groups. Indeed, our fine upstanding member of the community was only busted when he asked his girlfriend, whom he was also spying on, to fix his computer and she found a pile of sent emails.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4792627a11.html

You fucking arsehole. And the NZ police - what the hell is that about, you bunch of overpaid speed cameras. You're paying someone to tell you which animal rights campaigner is sleeping with which other animal rights campaigner? Why? Do we get a report on intra-pig sleepovers into the deal? I didn't think so.

And tied for last place in the "should remain a part of humanity" stakes come the incoming minister for Police, Judith Collins:


"This government wants to ensure [the police] have the tools and the support they need to keep the public safe."

and the outgoing minister and rocket scientist who set this dumb shit up in the first place, Phil Goff


Goff said that as minister he had no knowledge of the SIG's operational details. "That's not something that comes across the minister's desk."

Yah? Really? You ask the police to spy on people and they don't check back to see if you want to spy on people plodding round the Urewas with bombs, or animal rights campaigners helping protect the two backed beast?

Sickening. Fuck 'em. Particularly Rob Gilchrist.

Dave

[portokiwi]

Interesting reading.

[Oakie]

These groups unfortunately have been known to have a few loose cannon radicals amongst them and while their organisers allow this to continue I have no problem with the Police keeping tabs on them.

[Swampdonkey]

Thats what nine years of a solicalist marxist regime gets you. Total control by any method. Cant wait to hear Broads defense on this one.

[James Deuce]

He's just a simple man, trying to make his way in the universe.

[pritch]

It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Interesting that the new Minister thinks like this:

"I think most New Zealanders would find it reassuring that the police are out there keeping a watch on the whole community. That's what they're there for."


Silly me, I thought they were there to solve crime. Perhaps the limited resources of the Police might be better employed keeping a watch on the bloody criminals. And I don't mean the ones doing 110KPH...

[portokiwi]

:lol: I wonder if there are any one spying on this web site........ watching:shifty: Reading :shit: gathering info on us.:sweatdrop:sweatdrop:sweatdrop

[Trumpess]

My god .... what ever happened to freedom of speech? freedom of protest?
Just another link in becoming a comunist country ie: we are told what to do!

Thats very disturbing behaviour on the coppers part, paying an informant!

The likes of Greenpeace, Climate Change activists, and Animal rights protesters are peacefull protesters, making a point about Government cover ups. They protest in such a way to alert media to let all NZers know whats happening, otherwise we all would be oblivious as to what is actually happeneing.

Terriost threat?? What a frekin joke!

I fully support these groups and they changes they try to bring to make this world a better place.

As for the Iranian side of things, thats dodgy territory.

More tax dollar wastage!

[portokiwi]

Just need to google his name with New Zealand at the end.
His photo is on stuff.co.nz todays edition

[Big Dave]

:lol: I wonder if there are any one spying on this web site........ watching:shifty: Reading :shit: gathering info on us.:sweatdrop:sweatdrop:sweatdrop

Ask the Auckland Thursday Night crew. They know for sure.

[slowpoke]

Just another link in becoming a comunist country ie: we are told what to do!


Communism has got nothing to do with it, the same shit goes on in the 'States. Regardless of political persuasion it's about an Authoritarian government wanting a bunch of grey little people doing grey little things in their grey little lives and not rocking the boat in any way shape or form.

Fuck that.

[pzkpfw]

Man, his girlfriend spied on him.

Bitch.

[retro asian]

My mates sister got bullied at a clothing shop she worked for.

Some psycho animal rights activists came and complained to her for selling fur coats.

She tried to tell them that they were cheap synthetic coats from China i.e. not fur, but they didn't seem to understand and vandalised the shop.

They obviously enjoyed the terrorising/activist part more than spreading the message about being nice to animals...

[Trumpess]

My mates sister got bullied at a clothing shop she worked for.

Some psycho animal rights activists came and complained to her for selling fur coats.

She tried to tell them that they were cheap synthetic coats from China i.e. not fur, but they didn't seem to understand and vandalised the shop.

They obviously enjoyed the terrorising/activist part more than spreading the message about being nice to animals...


That not good at all mate!

There are always those in any group who try to take it one step too far because they argue against the groups policies being too pussie. They think they can do better.
These people usually set up their own groups who go about and cause the trouble, thus giving the original group a bad name, when they oppossed the violence in the first place.
Damnd if you do, damed if you dont.

[The Lone Rider]

geez .. your keen mate.
To out someone in this manner.
I hope it dosent bite you in the arse mate.

I've been involved in trying to get this lot behind bars for the last two years and made my feelings known last time I saw them (and told them to go to hell)

In two years - they have done nothing to "bite me in the ass"

As you can see, anything I've done did nothing to them. It was their own doings that got one of them busted for something.

I'm happy to point out ass holes - particularly ones who publicly go in the newspaper saying they are not a spy and that they busted someone for trying to hire them to be one. Then turns out they are. And that poor girl - like 10 years younger and moved down here to be with him and all he was doing was spying on her.

[wbks]

What an asshole. Do they think anti war protesters and animal rights campaigner's are going to plant bombs in the beehive or do a tama iti and open up a "make love not war" training camp where they throw buckets of red paint at unsuspecting fur wearing by passers for initiation?

[James Deuce]

The report is written by Nicky Hager, who is at least as dodgy as the subject in the article.

That is not an unbiased piece of work, and I would go so far as to question its veracity.

[The Lone Rider]

The report is written by Nicky Hager, who is at least as dodgy as the subject in the article.

That is not an unbiased piece of work, and I would go so far as to question its veracity.

No report is unbiased...

However as I know Rob Gilchrist I'd say I don't question the article to a point where I think it should be ignored. Sounds to me like something Rob would do :/

[James Deuce]

Nicky is a professional protester and conspiracy theorist.

He is more mental than I am.

[davereid]

Rochelle Rees is a labour party activist as well - No doubt she will be very unhappy to realise she was being spied on by an agency formed by the government she supported !

I think she used to work in IT for various universities... no doubt she will be getting a copy of XRAYPC or HIJACKTHIS to see exactly which of her P.C.s may have had keyloggers installed !

Anyway, only dishonest people have anything to fear from police knowing their every move and favorite sexual acts right ?

[flange14]

I've been involved in trying to get this lot behind bars for the last two years and made my feelings known last time I saw them (and told them to go to hell)

In two years - they have done nothing to "bite me in the ass"

As you can see, anything I've done did nothing to them. It was their own doings that got one of them busted for something.

So you are an informant too? Is that what you are saying? Or have you been trying to get the informants themselves behind bars?

Sounds dodgy to me!

[SARGE]

These groups unfortunately have been known to have a few loose cannon radicals amongst them and while their organisers allow this to continue I have no problem with the Police keeping tabs on them.

wouldnt it be money better spent to get the guys in with the gangs, the organized crime guys and the Al Queda cells?


oh yea .. sorry .. it IS the NZ police.. wouldnt want to get into anything TOO dangerous .. Hippies generally dont fight back ..

[flange14]

Previous post of mine was deleted by mod or you would have understood my post - not complaining it was deleted either. It was a just reason for removal of the post. (snip)

Oh.OK fair enough then. They probably have.

The animal rights people are always getting in trouble I am sure. Not serious enough to get on the news though so we never hear about it.:laugh:

[short-circuit]

Thats what nine years of a solicalist marxist regime gets you. Total control by any method. Cant wait to hear Broads defense on this one.

Ahahahahaha what planet do you come from?

[short-circuit]

Nothing wrong with Nicky Hager or Tame Iti for that matter.

[JimO]

Nothing wrong with Nicky Hager or Tame Iti for that matter.

yea they are top guys, at least one of them would be on top

[wbks]

wouldnt it be money better spent to get the guys in with the gangs, the organized crime guys and the Al Queda cells?


oh yea .. sorry .. it IS the NZ police.. wouldnt want to get into anything TOO dangerous .. Hippies generally dont fight back ..I would like to say on behalf of the New Zealand police that your anti-New Zealand statements have been noticed. Please report calmly to the nearest police station and co-operate on arrival. Resisting arrest or assault on a police officer will result a $150 fine and a new law regarding American citizens and child abuse. Thank you,

Senior Admin NZ Govt. -Wabakus

[SlideMoto]

Previous post of mine was deleted by mod or you would have understood my post -


Actualy I'm missing a post to. whats with that mods? cant even find it in pd.


Didnt even think it was that controversial. cant even post a hipothetical scenario on kb anymore. losers.

[Virago]

...cant even post a hipothetical scenario on kb anymore. losers.

Tough.

There's a special name for a hypothetical scenario involving a named individual - it's called LIBEL. The comments removed were most certainly legally actionable.

You're welcome to set up your own website to post libellous comments.

[Hitcher]

I believe that the Police are completely within their rights to monitor the activities of "activist" groups -- particularly those whose modus operandi involves breaking the law, particularly laws relating to the safety and well-being of people going about their lawful business.

I don't want to single particular groups out, but animal "rights" groups and Greenpeace are amongst the worst offenders.

I have been the recipient of death threats and other forms of anonymous harassment, as have my colleagues on some projects I have been involved with, and have been grateful on a couple of occasions for the Police to bring a bit of sense, reason and perspective to those folks who enjoy nothing more than waking the focus of their disaffection up in the wee small hours.

I will reserve a more reasoned rant about Greenpeace for another day, in an effort to keep this particular discharge on topic.

New Zealand tries to be a democracy. Democracy isn't about letting every nut-job get their way. People who have an issue about political decision making should take that matter up with politicians. Putting at risk people who operate heavy equipment by sabotaging it, shooting at low-flying aircraft, or assaulting those who offer medical support services to affected communities are the despicable scum-sucking tactics of those who picket abortion clinics and harass desperate women.

Democracy will generally make decisions somewhere between the extreme views on a particular issue. Democracy generally also makes decisions that are usually in the best interest of a majority of its citizens. Disaffected two-percenters who condone violence and destruction of property are criminals, pure and simple. The general public needs to be protected from them, and I applaud all efforts the Police take to uphold the laws that tree-hugging whackos and others have no respect for.

[SARGE]

I would like to say on behalf of the New Zealand police that your anti-New Zealand statements have been noticed. Please report calmly to the nearest police station and co-operate on arrival. Resisting arrest or assault on a police officer will result a $150 fine and a new law regarding American citizens and child abuse. Thank you,

Senior Admin NZ Govt. -Wabakus

what??!!..no wet bus ticket?

[James Deuce]

It's a dishrag, Jarhead, I changed the rules.

[wbks]

Its too bad you aren't asian, or we could let you stay and work on a winery picking grapes...

[Fatt Max]

:lol: I wonder if there are any one spying on this web site........ watching:shifty: Reading :shit: gathering info on us.:sweatdrop:sweatdrop:sweatdrop

Fuck I hope not....i've just nicked a brand new pie warmer from the dairy.

I was also involved in a big fight at the fish and chip shop last night, three bags of chips got assaulted and 2 snapper got battered.

THEY are everywhere......:(

[SARGE]

Fuck I hope not....i've just nicked a brand new pie warmer from the dairy.

I was also involved in a big fight at the fish and chip shop last night, three bags of chips got assaulted and 2 snapper got battered.

THEY are everywhere......:(

ive been sayin that for years...

[davereid]

I dunno.. some girls are pretty kinky...:devil2:

Hehe... thats why we luv 'em...

but all I said was Rochelle was an animal activist :confused:

[SixPackBack]

Makes you think!............Big brother undoubtedly watches KB very closely. Police officers regularly attend meetings and events and cosy up to senior KB members. I would like to think as members of the community they are doing the same as us-enjoying motorcycling and the associated camaraderie, however my own experiences coupled with the cartwright report and cases like rob gilchrist [absence of capitals intended!] leave me highly suspicious.

The police are not to be trusted [much like any gang].
Avoid disappointment and assume they are not acting in your best interest.
The police would have us contained within a totalitarian regime given half the chance.
Police corruption and 'white lies' are rife.
While it has been said before the majority of the force are genuine good buggers doing the right thing, the percentage of dodgy fuckers is high. More disturbing is the reluctance for coppers to speak up against each other. Proof that this is still a serious problem comes from the schollum-rickards case and the deafening silence from the usually vocal KB coppers club when 'dodgy coppers are discussed.

[The Lone Rider]

Some of Rob's friends/associates do use this site.

[Hitcher]

Let's keep things in perspective here. The Police are not interested in the activities of clubs and societies like the Taita Machine Knitters Club, Silverstream Lions or the Brown Owl Scouts. They only appear to be interested in "organisations" that condone indeed encourage criminal behaviour as a way of gaining publicity for their wacko causes.

Militant vegans are truly a worry, particularly the way they distort the true intent of their animal rights activities so that people link them with the SPCA, which they are not. They don't run animal shelters or find new homes for abandoned pets. Instead they vandalise legal commercial farming operations, destroy property associated with legal scientific research and harrass duck shooters. Criminals like this deserve to be monitored, in the same way that Black Power and the Mongrel Mob are no doubt monitored.

People who abuse the freedoms that our society provides should not complain if our society believes they are not to be trusted.

[trustme]

Thank you Hitcher, are these nut jobs so naive as to think there won't be a loose watch kept over the more extreme fringe elements. Should Tama & his lot have been ignored, was the attack on the the Blenheim tracking station a criminal activity or valid protest, how many million did that stunt cost YOU. I seem to remember an animal rights activist being found guilty of protest offences this year . These clowns think their actions are above the law, this is not the case, their actions attract scrutiny from the law because they have demonstrated a willingness to act outside the law. Well golly you fuckwits. The cops will use what ever means, it ain't tiddly winks

[Skyryder]

I believe that the Police are completely within their rights to monitor the activities of "activist" groups -- particularly those whose modus operandi involves breaking the law, particularly laws relating to the safety and well-being of people going about their lawful business.


There is absolutey no right of the police to monitor the private lives of members who belong to a lawfull organisation. I know of no protest group that is classed as a criminal orgainsation active in New Zealand. If the police or security sevices have a belief that a person or persons are engaged in unlawfull activites then this is another issue, but how their activites in the bedroom is of national security I do not know unless it is for the reason of possible blackmail.

I see Collins has asked Broad for an explanation. It will be interesting to see how this develops................if indeed it is allowed to???????????????:whistle:


Skyryder

[MisterD]

I see Collins has asked Broad for an explanation. It will be interesting to see how this develops................if indeed it is allowed to???????????????:whistle:


I would imagine that Collins has a good chance of finding two things she'd be quite keen on...1) An excuse to get shot of Broad, a Clark patsy if ever there was one and 2)a huge embarrassment for the current leader and deputy of the opposition.

[Skyryder]

I would imagine that Collins has a good chance of finding two things she'd be quite keen on...1) An excuse to get shot of Broad, a Clark patsy if ever there was one and 2)a huge embarrassment for the current leader and deputy of the opposition.


Probably right. I see there is some speculation just when Rees learnt of this.

I suspect that if this was in her knowledge before the election then the Nats will want to exploit this this and in my opinion this is where it is most likely to go.

This would be a shame as the ethics involved, not to mention the damage that this may have caused lawfull citizens of their private lives, will be glossed over.


Skyryder

[Hitcher]

There is absolutey no right of the police to monitor the private lives of members who belong to a lawfull organisation. I know of no protest group that is classed as a criminal orgainsation active in New Zealand. If the police or security sevices have a belief that a person or persons are engaged in unlawfull activites then this is another issue, but how their activites in the bedroom is of national security I do not know unless it is for the reason of possible blackmail.

The Police, I believe, have every right to monitor the activities of individuals and groups who they believe to be involved in criminal activities. Isn't that what we pay them for?

And, to revisit one of my perennial hobby horses, what are some of these "organisations" anyway? Many aren't registered bodies or legal entities. Many are just one person and a word processor. Why then do they get so much coverage? (rhetorical question).

As for this nonsense promulgated today by the Green Party, if they have members involved in criminal acts, then why shouldn't they be investigated by the Police? Being a political party represented in Parliament shouldn't put that Party or its members above the law.

Methinks they protest too much.

[slowpoke]

I believe that the Police are completely within their rights to monitor the activities of "activist" groups -- particularly those whose modus operandi involves breaking the law, particularly laws relating to the safety and well-being of people going about their lawful business.

What constitutes an "activist" group? The political party lobbying for change? The community organisation trying to amend local by-laws? The motorcyclists taking over the motorway protesting against wire rope barriers?

If they are breaking the law arrest them and follow due process, if not move on to real crimes that are happening every minute.

I don't want to single particular groups out, but animal "rights" groups and Greenpeace are amongst the worst offenders.

Or just the most publicised. And why the emphasis on the word "rights"? You don't think animals should have any?




Democracy will generally make decisions somewhere between the extreme views on a particular issue. Democracy generally also makes decisions that are usually in the best interest of a majority of its citizens. Disaffected two-percenters who condone violence and destruction of property are criminals, pure and simple. The general public needs to be protected from them, and I applaud all efforts the Police take to uphold the laws that tree-hugging whackos and others have no respect for.

You are right, we should have arrested all those anti-Vietnam protestors, and anti-Apartheid protestors, Rosa Parks, Nelson Mandela (oh wait they did, didn't they?) etc etc so many laws broken so little accomplished for it.....yeah right.

Democracy is only as good as the people governed by it and administering it. Unfortunately our governments, pollies and people are driven by self promotion and self interest, so unless they are directly affected by something or can see an "up side" for themselves they couldn't give a fuck. Hence small groups of people are left to battle percieved injustices on their own after the established powers have ignored it.

Whilst I don't agree with all their methods I'm glad there are people around with enough intestinal fortitude to continue seeking a change for the better long after most people would have given up.

[James Deuce]

Whilst I don't agree with all their methods I'm glad there are people around with enough intestinal fortitude to continue seeking a change for the better long after most people would have given up.

Death threats, violence, door knocking at 3am (which people get REALLY pissed off when the Police do so legitimately) are unwanted criminal activities and have no place in the repertoire of those seeking an unselfish political outcome. Hitcher has already pointed out he has been subjected to this by people who claim to be activists but are in reality people too stupid to rise above playground bully tactics, too stupid to understand the difference between synthetic fur and animal product, and insist on maintaining the fantasy that the genetic material of vegetable matter some how "combines" with human DNA.

I can most definitely confirm that a cucumber has never gotten me pregnant no matter how hard I try.

Environmentalism has given yet another excuse for hard core criminal dickheads to intimidate and hurt people. There were dickheads in the anti-apartheid protest simply there to bash a copper (I was there and was bashed, at the age of 15, by one of them), just as I am sure they were present in the Anti-Vietnam war marches, and I know they were also there in the Union protests during the Price & Wage freeze.

[Hitcher]

Whilst I don't agree with all their methods I'm glad there are people around with enough intestinal fortitude to continue seeking a change for the better long after most people would have given up.

So the end justifies the means? I, for one, hope not.

[Skyryder]

The Police, I believe, have every right to monitor the activities of individuals and groups who they believe to be involved in criminal activities. Isn't that what we pay them for?

Yes they do but you use the word group with A very wide lattitude.

KB is a group and on the basis of you posts you would have no problem with the Police indiscrimantley monitoring KB members by way of a paid informant simply on the basis that some members may be involved in criminal activity or even express veiws not shared by the Government or for that matter the Police.

I do and that philosophy is the core of my objection.


Skyryder

[Cajun]

Yes they do but you use the word group with A very wide lattitude.

KB is a group and on the basis of you posts you would have no problem with the Police indiscrimantley monitoring KB members by way of a paid informant simply on the basis that some members may be involved in criminal activity or even express veiws not shared by the Government or for that matter the Police.

I do and that philosophy is the core of my objection.


Skyryder

The cops actively watch kb, as the auckland thrusday night ride can confirm. There are members who feed information to cops, about things that happen or been posted on site.

[imdying]

As pointed out by others, this is a bad statement to make. (name removed) is in fact not a Nazi, he is a reinactor. He has also been notified of this statement.

As has Mr Gilchrist. I should hope you would see fit to cease any improper personal comments at this time.Walks like a duck, talks like a duck... well, you know the rest :msn-wink:

I'm not actually sure how being a wannabe nazi is better than being a 'real' nazi though... :rolleyes:

[Skyryder]

My god .... what ever happened to freedom of speech? freedom of protest?
Just another link in becoming a comunist country ie: we are told what to do!

Thats very disturbing behaviour on the coppers part, paying an informant!

The likes of Greenpeace, Climate Change activists, and Animal rights protesters are peacefull protesters, making a point about Government cover ups. They protest in such a way to alert media to let all NZers know whats happening, otherwise we all would be oblivious as to what is actually happeneing.

Terriost threat?? What a frekin joke!

I fully support these groups and they changes they try to bring to make this world a better place.

As for the Iranian side of things, thats dodgy territory.

More tax dollar wastage!


Rumour is that the SNAILS have regrouped (GROUP SEX??) in order to save the Mokinui on the west coast.



Skyryder

[trustme]

How do you differentiate between the harmless crackpot, renta crowd & the dangerous lunatic fringe unless you gather information , by necessity this must be covert, the lunatic few are hardly going to be upfront & honest if plod knocks on the door & asks for a quiet chat.
9/11 , the Bali bombings, Spain & the goings on in UK have caused a huge shift in attitude by the authoities to extremist groups [ legal or not ]. No longer are the protestors regarded as quaint kind of cute cranks, they pose a threat until proven otherwise & they can expect some form of scrutiny, nobody in authority wants another 9/11 or Bali on their watch, & the biggest threat is coming from within. Plod is not after renta crowd but the lunatic few who frequent the fringes of such organisations

[Hitcher]

KB is a group and on the basis of you posts you would have no problem with the Police indiscrimantley monitoring KB members by way of a paid informant simply on the basis that some members may be involved in criminal activity or even express veiws not shared by the Government or for that matter the Police.

Goodness me. There is a huge difference between suppressing free speech and monitoring criminal activity.

I doubt that Police monitoring of Kiwi Biker would reveal much useful intelligence.

[imdying]

How do you differentiate between the harmless crackpot, renta crowd & the dangerous lunatic fringe unless you gather informationThat's the problem in'it... if the groups are harmless enough, seems reasonable that they'll lost interest in them to a greater or lesser extent soon enough.

Still, nobody likes to be spied upon, given that, what's the alternative?

[James Deuce]

I doubt that Police monitoring of Kiwi Biker would reveal much useful intelligence.

Emphasis on the operand?

[imdying]

I doubt that Police monitoring of Kiwi Biker would reveal much useful intelligence.Not so! Speed is the biggest evil facing New Zealand today, KB seems like a good place to start looking for it :lol:

[Skyryder]

How do you differentiate between the harmless crackpot, renta crowd & the dangerous lunatic fringe unless you gather information , by necessity this must be covert, the lunatic few are hardly going to be upfront & honest if plod knocks on the door & asks for a quiet chat.
9/11 , the Bali bombings, Spain & the goings on in UK have caused a huge shift in attitude by the authoities to extremist groups [ legal or not ]. No longer are the protestors regarded as quaint kind of cute cranks, they pose a threat until proven otherwise & they can expect some form of scrutiny, nobody in authority wants another 9/11 or Bali on their watch, & the biggest threat is coming from within. Plod is not after renta crowd but the lunatic few who frequent the fringes of such organisations


This is the arguement for a Police State and a Police State is where its lawfull citizens are monitored by the Government. Once you begin to advocate that it is necessary to monitor an entire orgaisation or group then those who are innocent of unlawfull activity have their rights violated, and by doing so the state orgaisation be it police or security forces have violated the rights that the Government have sworn to uphold. Once this becomes the excepted practice by the citzenry, it is only a matter of time before this practice becomes lawfull and as such the purpose of government to uphold the freedoms of western traditions become invalid.


Such is the path that you advocate

Skyryder

[The Lone Rider]

I doubt that Police monitoring of Kiwi Biker would reveal much intelligence.

:stupid: What I thought you said at first glance with these crusty dried eyes


:msn-wink:

[Skyryder]

Goodness me. There is a huge difference between suppressing free speech and monitoring criminal activity.



Yes but's it's not free speech that is under discussion but freedom of association and with it the right to privacy in the bedroom.



Skyryder

[Ixion]

Goodness me. There is a huge difference between suppressing free speech and monitoring criminal activity.

I doubt that Police monitoring of Kiwi Biker would reveal much useful intelligence.

That is a false argument. No-one objects to the Police monitoring criminal activity. But that is not what they a re doing. They are monitoring the activities of people, prima faciae law abiding ones, on the grounds that such monitoring MIGHT disclose indications (not even evidence) of some (unidentified) criminal activity.

On exactly the same basis , will you then support the Police carrying out searches of peoples' homes (starting with yours) on the basis that doing so MIGHT disclose indications (not even evidence) of some (unidentified) criminal activity.

Much as I personally dislike the groups concerned ('nutters' is a charitable description of Greenpeace) it is a fundamental requirement of the Rule of Law that the State has no business spying on people until they have evidence of (at least) probably wrongdoing. Spying to obtain that evidence is a logical (and self serving) fallacy.

If the Police were able to establish that they only spied on those with an established criminal record, I would view matters differently. The previous offence gives reasonable grounds to suppose there might be a repetition. But I am not aware that this is the case.

[scumdog]

Makes you think!............Big brother undoubtedly watches KB very closely. Police officers regularly attend meetings and events and cosy up to senior KB members. I would like to think as members of the community they are doing the same as us-enjoying motorcycling and the associated camaraderie, however my own experiences coupled with the cartwright report and cases like rob gilchrist [absence of capitals intended!] leave me highly suspicious.

The police are not to be trusted [much like any gang].
Avoid disappointment and assume they are not acting in your best interest.
The police would have us contained within a totalitarian regime given half the chance.
Police corruption and 'white lies' are rife.
While it has been said before the majority of the force are genuine good buggers doing the right thing, the percentage of dodgy fuckers is high. More disturbing is the reluctance for coppers to speak up against each other. Proof that this is still a serious problem comes from the schollum-rickards case and the deafening silence from the usually vocal KB coppers club when 'dodgy coppers are discussed.





Yup, true.

I went to the KB gathering at Danseys Pass in the weekend, cosied up to all 60 people there and right now I'm writing a massive dosier on each of them.

[Mom]

There are members who feed information to cops, about things that happen or been posted on site.

Burn them I say! Come on Cajun, name and shame...


I doubt that Police monitoring of Kiwi Biker would reveal much useful intelligence.


Burst my bubble why dont you Hitcher, gee I was just shaping up to really naughty there *sigh*

[trustme]

This is the arguement for a Police State and a Police State is where its lawfull citizens are monitored by the Government. Once you begin to advocate that it is necessary to monitor an entire orgaisation or group then those who are innocent of unlawfull activity have their rights violated, and by doing so the state orgaisation be it police or security forces have violated the rights that the Government have sworn to uphold. Once this becomes the excepted practice by the citzenry, it is only a matter of time before this practice becomes lawfull and as such the purpose of government to uphold the freedoms of western traditions become invalid.


Such is the path that you advocate

Skyryder

Welcome to the brave new world, sucks doesn't it, I don't like it either but do you ignore the potential threat & pretend it isn't there, are the citizenry safer because they are ignorant of the threat.
All the warning signs & signals were there for 9/11 but went unheeded.
UK taught us that the threat is more likely to come from within.
How do you propose we defend ourselves or should we bury our heads in the sand & pretend it does not exist. You will think i'm alarmist & over the top, 3000 people in the twin towers would like the chance to disagree as would a few hundred in Bali

[Skyryder]

Welcome to the brave new world, sucks doesn't it, I don't like it either but do you ignore the potential threat & pretend it isn't there, are the citizenry safer because they are ignorant of the threat.
All the warning signs & signals were there for 9/11 but went unheeded.
UK taught us that the threat is more likely to come from within.
How do you propose we defend ourselves or should we bury our heads in the sand & pretend it does not exist. You will think i'm alarmist & over the top, 3000 people in the twin towers would like the chance to disagree as would a few hundred in Bali

This is the other type of argument that is given by advocates who believe that curbing our privacy and the freedom of association our society is going to be a safer place. The very nature of blanket surveillance of citizens where no criminal activity has been suspected defeats the purpose of the surveillance in the first place. There can be no ethical argument that allows the private lives of citizens, where there is no suspicion of criminal activity, simply on the grounds of their associations by way of conscience.

Once you act otherwise at what point do you stop and for what purpose?


Skyryder

[Slyer]

If you're going to be a spy, don't get caught.

Also, only spy on "bad" organisations and only the stuff that is actually useful.

[trustme]

This is the other type of argument that is given by advocates who believe that curbing our privacy and the freedom of association our society is going to be a safer place. The very nature of blanket surveillance of citizens where no criminal activity has been suspected defeats the purpose of the surveillance in the first place. There can be no ethical argument that allows the private lives of citizens, where there is no suspicion of criminal activity, simply on the grounds of their associations by way of conscience.

Once you act otherwise at what point do you stop and for what purpose?


Skyryder

In an ideal world I would agree with you,the trouble is ethics has become very much a one way street. We are strong on our rights but fall way short on responsibilities & consequences for our actions,
What constitutes a threat ?, at what point is it in the public interest to take a closer look at the people in some of these organisations?

[Skyryder]

In an ideal world I would agree with you,the trouble is ethics has become very much a one way street. We are strong on our rights but fall way short on responsibilities & consequences for our actions,
What constitutes a threat ?, at what point is it in the public interest to take a closer look at the people in some of these organisations?

There has 'never' been an ideal world nor will there ever be one.


What you and those that subscribe to the theory of the end justifies the means fail to aknowledge is that our society, with all it's failings is not 'one' where 'the end does justify the means

This is the reason that excuses are given for issues such as this one.


Skyryder

[Paul in NZ]

Hang on a minute…

Police are agents or agencies, usually of the executive, empowered to enforce the law and to ensure public and social order through the legitimized use of force. The term is most commonly associated with police departments of a state that are authorized to exercise the police power of that state within a defined legal or territorial area of responsibility.

All of the groups that have been ‘spy’d’ on are groups that have disrupted or want to change the social order. It is proper surely that the Police maintain a watching brief on these organizations whose aim is often to draw attention to themselves and their causes by mounting disruptive campaigns. Note that the Police are not charged with making a judgment whether these groups are good, bad, well intentioned or simply just terrorists, simply with maintaining public order. If you disrupt the public order it is the job of the Police to restore that order.

What rankles is that the thought of spies’ is abhorrent to most of us – its somehow dirty, ignoble and underhand. Yet the reality is, the majority would rat out their mates at the drop of a hat if there was something in it for them. Ie we are all potential spys. What rankles even more is that these groups are seen as ‘the good guys’ and how dare the state spy on them… erm – who says they are the good guys? It’s fair enough to protest against coal mining etc but if it was my business and I was going about my lawful business and some dropkick started costing me big bucks – guess who I’d call, yes, the Police and ask them ‘why didn’t you do something to stop this’.

Without question – some of these groups have legitimate concerns and are right to draw our attention to these issues. Morally I tend to be on their side BUT they are indulging themselves here for a bit of extra coverage. Are they saying they have never used secret info or mounted intelligence operations, taken tips from insiders? Of course they have – they just don’t like it when it’s done to them.

I believe the Police are quite correct in mounting these operations and gathering this kind of information. This IS a free society (well relatively) but some people will always take things too far because they think they are ‘right’ and often their ‘opinions’ cross the line of what is legal depriving others of their lawful rights. I'm sorry - the Police do need to be on top of these things.

[trustme]

I wonder if there would be the same outcry if it was the skin heads & white supremists that were being 'Spied ' on. The howls of indignation from the left [ I hate that term ] / civil rights advocates seem to be as selectively applied as those from the far right who see nothing but reds under the bed. Lets not forget one of those right wing arseholes has just been sentenced for 2 race hate murders, if he had been watched it might not have happened [ in an ideal world]

[Ixion]

All of the groups that have been ‘spy’d’ on are groups that have disrupted or want to change the social order. It is proper surely that the Police maintain a watching brief on these organizations whose aim is often to draw attention to themselves and their causes by mounting disruptive campaigns.

On that basis , may we take it that the police are also spying on the Business Round Table and the Employers Federation. Who also want to "change the social order" and have been known to mount "disruptive campaigns"

But, even if the spying were so nicely balanced, it would not change the fact that our constitution places limits on the power of the police. Always has done, and for very good reasons. Which seems to be the point that eludes people here. We have never granted the police an unconstrained power to spy on people , subject only to their own discretion. For instance, the police cannot open your mail. If they wish to do so , they must obtain a court order, and specify reasonable grounds for it.

In the wake of the hysteria of 9/11 the long established procedures required to validate such police spying were signifcantly relaxed on a (largely specious) pretext that "terrorists" were about to kill people in their thousands and tens of thousands. But, does anyone really believe that any of the organisations specified are in cahoots with Al Queda ?

Moreover, those who seek to justify this sort of thing also elide over the fundamental point. That Mr Gilchrist is shown to have , for many years, conducted a systemic betrayal of the trust placed in him . That in short he is a despicable person. Would anyone here really want him as a friend or aquaintance?

And finally : This spying has been going on for years. How many terrorists have been brought before the courts as a result of Mr Gilchrist's spying? Or indeed, how many people have been charged with ANY offence. I am not aware of any. And if there are none how can it be justified? If there are no charges, that would seem a very good argument that there are no offences worthy of charging. And if there are no offences how is the spying justified?

[Ixion]

I wonder if there would be the same outcry if it was the skin heads & white supremists that were being 'Spied ' on. The howls of indignation from the left seem to be as selectively applied as those from the far right who see nothing but reds under the bed. Lets not forget one of those right wing arseholes has just been sentenced for 2 race hate murders, if he had been watched it might not have happened [ in an ideal world]

Yes. There would be. And I am the red under the bed. I do not agree with any of the groups specified. And I robustly reject their aims, as well as their methods. But I will equally robustly maintain their right to say that which I find objectionable, and to the protection of long established constitutional freedoms.

Because once I (or anyone else) accept that freedom is only available to people who say and do things that I agree with, then freedom has lost its meaning.

[Skyryder]

Hang on a minute…




Police are agents or agencies, usually of the executive, empowered to enforce the law and to ensure public and social order through the legitimized use of force. The term is most commonly associated with police departments of a state that are authorized to exercise the police power of that state within a defined legal or territorial area of responsibility.

All of the groups that have been ‘spy’d’ on are groups that have disrupted or want to change the social order.

(Groups that want to change the social order are political groups. Many of the individuals that are members of either animal or eco groups may also be politically active but this in no way can be interpreted that the group that these indavidulas belong be it animal rights or of an eco nature are political. Most are if not a single issue group such as the Save Happy Valley or of a singular disposition towards a common purpose Skyryder)


It is proper surely that the Police maintain a watching brief on these organizations whose aim is often to draw attention to themselves and their causes by mounting disruptive campaigns.

](This is nonsense and is no more applicable applicable as it was with the woman’s suffragette movement. The purpose of protest groups is to change what they believe to be a wrong and publicize e their activities to gain support. Those that break the law in doing so can expect the full punishment and rightly so Skyryder)

[/B]
Note that the Police are not charged with making a judgment whether these groups are good, bad, well intentioned or simply just terrorists, simply with maintaining public order. If you disrupt the public order it is the job of the Police to restore that order.

(Yes but what that has to do with who is sleeping with who I for one fail to see. Skyryder)


What rankles is that the thought of spies’ is abhorrent to most of us – its somehow dirty, ignoble and underhand. Yet the reality is, the majority would rat out their mates at the drop of a hat if there was something in it for them. Ie we are all potential spys.

](Yes we are that is providing that the cause is not in conflict with our conscience Skyryder.)
[/B]

What rankles even more is that these groups are seen as ‘the good guys’ and how dare the state spy on them…

(This is a sweeping statement and fails to acknowledge that many of us have values that are not for sale. Skyryder)


erm – who says they are the good guys? It’s fair enough to protest against coal mining etc but if it was my business and I was going about my lawful business and some dropkick started costing me big bucks – guess who I’d call, yes, the Police and ask them ‘why didn’t you do something to stop this’.

(Nothing wrong with this but most of the protest groups are not in protest with single owned business but corporations and suchlike. Not that there is any difference other than one usually has shareholder as against the other who does not but point noted. Skyryder)



Without question – some of these groups have legitimate concerns and are right to draw our attention to these issues. Morally I tend to be on their side BUT they are indulging themselves here for a bit of extra coverage.

](I think I’d be a bit pissed off if had a relationship for eight years and it turned that this relationship was abused for spying activities. The only one indulging himself here was the spy.Skyryder)
[/B]
Are they saying they have never used secret info or mounted intelligence operations, taken tips from insiders? Of course they have – they just don’t like it when it’s done to them.

(There is a difference between info that can be used to their advantage in as much that they might have foreknowledge of a particular event or policy but to spy on the bedroom activities as this spy did and pass this information on can in no way be justified.Skyryder)

I believe the Police are quite correct in mounting these operations and gathering this kind of information. This IS a free society (well relatively) but some people will always take things too far because they think they are ‘right’ and often their ‘opinions’ cross the line of what is legal depriving others of their lawful rights. I'm sorry - the Police do need to be on top of these things.

(It seems to me that surveillance operations on individuals of a lawful organization where the police have no information of unlawful activity is not correct and I believe that most would agree if this happened to them. It would seem and not unreasonably
that those that have crossed and deprived others of their lawful rights are the police. And that’s the right to privacy in the bedroom among other places. Skyryder)

[/QUOTE]


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Because once I (or anyone else) accept that freedom is only available to people who say and do things that I agree with, then freedom has lost its meaning.

Which is the very point I alludied to in an earlier post.

Skyryder

[trustme]

Yes. There would be. And I am the red under the bed. I do not agree with any of the groups specified. And I robustly reject their aims, as well as their methods. But I will equally robustly maintain their right to say that which I find objectionable, and to the protection of long established constitutional freedoms.

Because once I (or anyone else) accept that freedom is only available to people who say and do things that I agree with, then freedom has lost its meaning.

Clever bloke that Voltaire & again I agree with you , but there is an element within some of these organisations that does not abide by the law , who is undermining our freedom , the police or the people who seek to overthrow social order ?

[Ixion]

Clever bloke that Voltaire & again I agree with you , but there is an element within some of these organisations that does not abide by the law , who is undermining our freedom , the police or the people who seek to overthrow social order ?

And so he was. But the ideal of freedom of speech and thought is far older. Read Plato's Apology, or Republic. Or, nearer to his own time , the beautiful Cavalier poet

If I have freedom in my love
And in my soul am free
Angels alone who soar above
Enjoy such liberty

Nor, I think , do you really agree.

As to your question, you presuppose that which you assert to prove.

What proof have you (or the police ) that the people spied upon are "undermining our freedom" or "seek to overthrow social order". Let alone by illegal or terrorist methods ? If you can produce none, then your argument fails.

I extend again my previous challenge, for you to answer. How many people have been brought before the courts, as a result of these spy operations , charged with any offence that could be construed as "seeking to overthrow social order" or "undermining our freedoms" . If you can produce none, that fact speaks for itself

Moreover , I have done a little research. The police position is nastier than it seems. It appears that their spies are tasked with finding personal information about those on whom they spy which is then used by the police to lay what can only be termed harrassment charges. Which are always withdrawn once they get to court (or thrown out by judges when they are not) : or are of such a trivial nature (akin to have an expired WoF) that the purpose of the charge is manifestly a form of blackmail

Very like the behaviour of our own beloved Gingacunt in fact.

Not the least sinister aspect of all this is the slowly rising suspicion that this police activity is in fact encouraged , if not actually directed , by political influences.

[Swoop]

Presumably the same rules apply now as back in The War? If a spy is caught he/she may be shot?:blip:

"We would just like to welcome all of the representatives of the Illinois Law Enforcement Community, that have chosen to join us here tonight at The Palace Ballroom"

[Paul in NZ]

The trouble with expressing opinions of idiotic places like this is that they are always taken to extreme interpretation - I give up.

[The Lone Rider]

Previous article, that also appeared in print, in April 2008

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4489507a11.html

News video on youtube from the recent tv news

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPTtG9x1hlo

Long Article -
http://slackbastard.anarchobase.com/?p=1551#more-1551

[Skyryder]

The trouble with expressing opinions of idiotic places like this is that they are always taken to extreme interpretation - I give up.


No offence was intended but you have been here long enough to know that some of us get passionate about our beliefs and given the opportunity will not hesitate to express our views.......or comment on posts as you have done on many occasions.

I for one enjoy your posts and in most cases I tend to agree with your comments but in this case I am unable to do so. As no one else has commented on your post to date I can only presume that your phase ‘idiotic places like this' is a disguised reference to my self. I would like to think otherwise but can come to no other conclusion

If for any reason you are unable to ‘tolerate’ any form of criticism of your posts then may I politely request that you take one of your “chill pills.”


Skyryder

[SPman]

On that basis , may we take it that the police are also spying on the Business Round Table and the Employers Federation. Who also want to "change the social order" and have been known to mount "disruptive campaigns"
Sorry - they're disbanding the SFO! Fat white pricks with money and influence can do what they like, unhindered by police oversight......

Because once I (or anyone else) accept that freedom is only available to people who say and do things that I agree with, then freedom has lost its meaning.
Freedom, has in fact, ceased to exist


The more laws and order are made prominent,
The more thieves and robbers there will be.
Lao-tzu (604 BC - 531 BC)

[Cajun]

Sorry - they're disbanding the SFO! Fat white pricks with money and influence can do what they like, unhindered by police oversight......

John Key has stoped that from happening at moment, wants to review it or something

[SPman]

Clever bloke that Voltaire & again I agree with you , but there is an element within some of these organisations that does not abide by the law , who is undermining our freedom , the police or the people who seek to overthrow social order ?
How about the common Police and Government use of Agent Provocateurs, to infiltrate groups and incite or physically lead them, to go way beyond what they would normally do, for the express purpose of discrediting them and giving the "authorities" an excuse to step in!

[Paul in NZ]

No offence was intended but you have been here long enough to know that some of us get passionate about our beliefs and given the opportunity will not hesitate to express our views.......or comment on posts as you have done on many occasions.

I for one enjoy your posts and in most cases I tend to agree with your comments but in this case I am unable to do so. As no one else has commented on your post to date I can only presume that your phase ‘idiotic places like this' is a disguised reference to my self. I would like to think otherwise but can come to no other conclusion

If for any reason you are unable to ‘tolerate’ any form of criticism of your posts then may I politely request that you take one of your “chill pills.”


Skyryder

I can certainly tolerate critic's - in fact I encourage it. The idiotic place is the internet - don't get the idea its all about you. Given that you freely admit to deliberately winding people up on websites I doubt I'm going to get too worried about it or wound up.

However - I believe you are trying to take the high moral ground here - Not for sale, passionate about our beliefs - yawn! Why do you think people become informants or spies? Sure, $$ can be a factor but so can passionate beliefs - James Bond is a great guy 'cos hes on our side - the russian spies are fithy traitors to us - heroes to the russians. Maybe this guy had some serious concerns about that was going on - we don't know.

What exactly the police have done anything wrong. Its not like the coppers suddenly rounded the lot of em up and executed them - its entirely possible some has asked them to do some reseach (maybe a crime, sabotage or something - we don't know)

Having snooped about on his PC the grieving lass goes public and the 'movement' decides to out the 'spy' and get the max coverage from it - classic marketing and I don't buy it one little bit. I'll bet a billion beers they have a few moles inside govt depts or corporates feeding them info they are not entitled to.

Values? Oh please - what values? All I see is a whole lot of people on both sides going blah blah blah - we are the good guys, do as we tell you, don't think for yourself

[SixPackBack]

How about the common Police and Government use of Agent Provocateurs, to infiltrate groups and incite or physically lead them, to go way beyond what they would normally do, for the express purpose of discrediting them and giving the "authorities" an excuse to step in!

Work creation and the addition of 'customers' must be a real advantage for the police and government departments.

[scumdog]

Work creation and the addition of 'customers' must be a real advantage for the police and government departments.

We don't need no 'work creation' - fuckwitted ding-a-lings keep us in work without any 'creation' at all.:yes:

[Skyryder]

I can certainly tolerate critic's - in fact I encourage it. The idiotic place is the internet - don't get the idea its all about you. Given that you freely admit to deliberately winding people up on websites I doubt I'm going to get too worried about it or wound up.

However - I believe you are trying to take the high moral ground here - Not for sale, passionate about our beliefs - yawn! Why do you think people become informants or spies? Sure, $$ can be a factor but so can passionate beliefs - James Bond is a great guy 'cos hes on our side - the russian spies are fithy traitors to us - heroes to the russians. Maybe this guy had some serious concerns about that was going on - we don't know.

What exactly the police have done anything wrong. Its not like the coppers suddenly rounded the lot of em up and executed them - its entirely possible some has asked them to do some reseach (maybe a crime, sabotage or something - we don't know)

Having snooped about on his PC the grieving lass goes public and the 'movement' decides to out the 'spy' and get the max coverage from it - classic marketing and I don't buy it one little bit. I'll bet a billion beers they have a few moles inside govt depts or corporates feeding them info they are not entitled to.

Values? Oh please - what values? All I see is a whole lot of people on both sides going blah blah blah - we are the good guys, do as we tell you, don't think for yourself



That's where you are wrong this thread is about you and me and the expectation of our privacy if we should exercise our right to join any lawful organization that is engaged in an activity that we disagree with. This is a fundamental expectation of freedom of association. I don’t see any moral high ground here or for that matter any other comments that I have made.......period

There is a big differece in useing taxpayers money to infiltrate protest groups and your 'assumption' that these protest groups are useing private information for their own ends. They may well be but my assumption is that they are not paying for it.

I accept that to date the police have not broken any laws in using Gilchrist to infiltrate protest groups, well at least none that have surfaced, however this in no way condones payment to an individual regardless of his personal beliefs to report on their private lives. And I stress private lives

I am of the opinion in this matter the police are unable to distinguish the difference between an organized crime gang whose members are known for their criminal activity and a protest group.



Skyryder

[Hitcher]

I am of the opinion in this matter the police are unable to distinguish the difference between an organized crime gang whose members are known for their criminal activity and a protest group.

Possibly that because in the cases of the organisations named, there is no difference.

[Skyryder]

Possibly that because in the cases of the organisations named, there is no difference.

Well if you include the Mongrol Mob as a protest group along with the Killer Bees, one percenter biker gangs, and the black power along with the various skin head gangs I'd agree but somehow the Save Happy Valley gang just does not engender the same kind of terror...........well not to me.



Skyryder

[Hitcher]

but somehow the Save Happy Valley gang just does not engender the same kind of terror...........well not to me.

You have the luxury of not operating heavy mining equipment for Solid Energy, or Kiwi Rail, or being an employee of either, particularly one resident on the South Island's west coast.

[rainman]

Possibly that because in the cases of the organisations named, there is no difference.

I was once a member of Greenpeace. And I can assure you it is not an organised crime gang. Both points are also true for the Green Party, which I understand from media reports, has also been spied upon.

Police surveillance of political parties, of whatever hue and persuasion, is an absolute no-no - which hopefully should be obvious to even the most anti-green bigot here. Those responsible should be arse-kicked from here to there and back again. Unfortunately National will not display any leadership in this.

[Paul in NZ]

That's where you are wrong this thread is about you and me and the expectation of our privacy if we should exercise our right to join any lawful organization that is engaged in an activity that we disagree with. This is a fundamental expectation of freedom of association. I don’t see any moral high ground here or for that matter any other comments that I have made.......periodSkyryder

Nope - what I'm saying is that you are making assumptions from an extreme point of view - the police may have had a very good reason to do what they did. They are neither so well staffed or funded to just randomly decide to do things.

This whole report is a big PR exercise....

[Ixion]

People who do shabby and dishonourable things very often have good reason for the things they do. That does not make them any the less shabby or dishonourable.

[Paul in NZ]

People who do shabby and dishonourable things very often have good reason for the things they do. That does not make them any the less shabby or dishonourable.

Thats not only not true - I don't think the police are the only shabby ones in that group???

[Ixion]

I would be very disappointed to think that you did not believe it true.
Do you mean that people who do shabby and dishonourable things never have a good reason for them? That hardly gels with reality, they almost always do, even if it is only making money.

Or do you mean that having a good reason (being paid money for instance) makes that which is inherently shabby or dishonourable decent and honourable. If so, the shade of Judas wishes to shake yuour hand.

And we , rightly, hold the police to higher standards than those with whom they deal.

[McJim]

I would be very disappointed to think that you did not believe it true.
Do you mean that people who do shabby and dishonourable things never have a good reason for them? That hardly gels with reality, they almost always do, even if it is only making money.

Or do you mean that having a good reason (being paid money for instance) makes that which is inherently shabby or dishonourable decent and honourable. If so, the shade of Judas wishes to shake yuour hand.

And we , rightly, hold the police to higher standards than those with whom they deal.

I agree - Greenpeace are both shabby and dishonourable. Not to mention shoddy and inaccurate with many of their accusations. I pay them no heed and verbally abuse them when they ask me for funding.

They will merrily destroy lives and livelihoods by putting a decimal point in the wrong place.

Fuckem - go the coppers!

[Paul in NZ]

And we , rightly, hold the police to higher standards than those with whom they deal.

Shabby and dishonourable are descriptive words used by those on the loosing side. Whenever someone talks to me about 'honour' and 'values' I hang onto my wallet and prepare for a shafting.

This whole thing is a cynical PR exercise by some shabby people...

[Pixie]

Greenpeace Corporation and their scummy hippy collaborators who started the "save the snails" thing on the West Coast,caused tens of thousands of dollars worth of damage to contractors equipment.
Tell me that isn't a criminal act.
Fuckwits

[Pixie]

I can most definitely confirm that a cucumber has never gotten me pregnant no matter how hard I try.



What about those watermelons?
Did you get any of them pregnant?

[Pixie]

Clever bloke that Voltaire ...

It's ironic ,given the subject of the thread,that he became famous for connecting a battery to a frog's arse.

pt

[Hitcher]

What about those watermelons?
Did you get any of them pregnant?

It is a known fact that watermelon pips are incapable of making females pregnant. They are, however, a vector for hepatitis.

[Skyryder]

Greenpeace Corporation and their scummy hippy collaborators who started the "save the snails" thing on the West Coast,caused tens of thousands of dollars worth of damage to contractors equipment.
Tell me that isn't a criminal act.
Fuckwits

No one said it wasn't. And I agree such people are fuckwits. But it is not the fuckwits that we are talking about but those that respect the law having their personal lives reported to the police.

[Skyryder]

Shit............ I can not understand some of the excuses given here for the actions of the police. Has everyone forgotton the howls of outrage on here when the police were targeting speedsters from hidden locations. When underhand methods are employed and we become the targets ohh what a bitch but when underhand methods are used against those whose opinions we do not share......what a change of attitude. My opinion of the police spying on law abiding citizens......... simply on the basis that they have joined a lawfull orgaisation is consistant with my oppositon to hidden speed cameras. They are both fucking sneaky and both should be roundly condemed.

Skyryder

[Hitcher]

But it is not the fuckwits that we are talking about but those that respect the law having their personal lives reported to the police.

Nobody; apart from the terminally aggrieved, doe-eyed, butter-wouldn't-melt, annoyingly pious, vegan goths who are attracted to activist groups; has produced any evidence to suggest that the Police have paid for information about innocent people.

[Skyryder]

Nope - what I'm saying is that you are making assumptions from an extreme point of view - the police may have had a very good reason to do what they did. They are neither so well staffed or funded to just randomly decide to do things.

This whole report is a big PR exercise....

Of course this is PR. I do not deny this at all but PR does not excuse the fact that individuals of lawful groups had their private lives reported on to the police by a paid informer to the police $600 a week according to the Chch Press.

If for any reason any protest group becomes aware of these (undercover) activities then it becomes a strategy of real politick to paint these activities in the worst possible light. To criticize Reese as you have done by claiming that her actions as a big PR exercise has nothing to do with the concerns that many on here have expressed. It’s a side issue.

As for me making assumptions from an extreme point of view can you please clarify what you mean by an extreme point of view while bearing in mind that your comments and I quote the police may have had a very good reason to do what they did is in itself an assumption as you have no knowledge for the reason of their actions. It seems to me that you are as guilty of this as you claim myself to be.

Skyryder

[Ixion]

Nobody; apart from the terminally aggrieved, doe-eyed, butter-wouldn't-melt, annoyingly pious, vegan goths who are attracted to activist groups; has produced any evidence to suggest that the Police have paid for information about innocent people.

So are you saying that the erminally aggrieved, doe-eyed, butter-wouldn't-melt, annoyingly pious, vegan goths who are attracted to activist groups have produced such evidence ; but it should be ignored because said erminally aggrieved, doe-eyed, butter-wouldn't-melt, annoyingly pious, vegan goths who are attracted to activist groups are not entitled to the protection of the law ; or are you saying that the only innocent people the police have spied on are the said terminally aggrieved, doe-eyed, butter-wouldn't-melt, annoyingly pious, vegan goths who are attracted to activist groups , and that's alright because terminally aggrieved, doe-eyed, butter-wouldn't-melt, annoyingly pious, vegan goths who are attracted to activist groups are fair game.

There is certainly evidence that Mr Gilchrist spied on Rochelle Rees (his girlfriend). Have you evidence that she is a criminal (bearing in mind your own frequent strictures about the laws of libel) ?

And how are other, innocent , people to determine that they have been spied on? The only ones who know are the police and Mr Gilchrist.

A very interesting point occurs to me

Mr Gilchrist was receiving regular payment for his services , from the police. So, he was either an employee, or a private contractor.

If the former, the police should have been deducting PAYE and accounting for it . If the latter Mr Gilchrist should have been providing them with a tax invoice and accounting for GST.

And in either case Mr Gilchrist should have been paying tax on that income.

Not to mention ACC levies.


I wonder if they were ? And why not? Surely the police would not argue that they are above the law.

[RantyDave]

Nobody; apart from the terminally aggrieved, doe-eyed, butter-wouldn't-melt, annoyingly pious, vegan goths who are attracted to activist groups; has produced any evidence to suggest that the Police have paid for information about innocent people.
Au contraire, Rodney. There is no evidence to suggest that the Police have paid for information about guilty people. Given that AFAIK no charges have been laid as a result of the information this fucking scumbag (in case we were forgetting) has been selling, it is by definition the case that everyone involved is innocent.


"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
...since we seem to be forgetting, again.

Dave

[Skyryder]

Nobody; apart from the terminally aggrieved, doe-eyed, butter-wouldn't-melt, annoyingly pious, vegan goths who are attracted to activist groups; has produced any evidence to suggest that the Police have paid for information about innocent people.

As the public will never see any official files of evidence your denial becomes invalid but Key has been sufficiently concerned to issue a press statement on this very issue of privacy.

Skyryder

[SPman]

Right wing demagoguery.......
Left wing demagoguery......

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of Government, those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny!" - Jefferson

It's all part of the slow spiral downwards......

As George Carlin said - "when's that big fuckin' comet gonna hit...."

[Hitcher]

Have you evidence that she is a criminal

No, but I'd lock her up anyway because she is smugly self-righteous and extremely irritating.

[SPman]

No, but I'd lock her up anyway because she is smugly self-righteous and extremely irritating.

Sounds as good a reason as any :laugh:

[mstriumph]

.....
"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of Government, those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny!" - Jefferson

....
gotta LOVE that man :love:

[James Deuce]

Bring back the Enlightenment!

[HenryDorsetCase]

Mr Gilchrist is, apparently, merely one of a whole network of police informants currently spying on the such deadly threads as greenpeace and animal rights groups. <snip>

Dave


I think if you view the well known documentary film "12 Monkeys" you will see that animal rights campaigners can be a very dangerous bunch of radical criminals, and their actions could very well have dire consequences.

[James Deuce]

Superb movie. Brad Pitt's best work to date.

[davereid]

gotta LOVE that man :love:

Strangely while Jefferson was passionate about freedom, democracy, and liberty, he also kept slaves.

That particular quote has been my signature for ages now.

Like many posters here, I see the quiet creep of government control.

Just little things, not all here in NZ just yet, but no doubt coming...

- like the right to a trial before punishment, and the presumption of innocence being dumped...

- the government wanting cellphone companies to keep records of your calls and logs of your location...

- the police being given the power to spy on people without having to convince a judge they have cause

- the new number-plate recognition camera, which will no doubt store the recorded image of your vehicle, the time and date, just in case someone wants to know..

- the drivers licence which has morphed into a regularly required "photo ID"

- the routine censorship of internet access by internal affairs dept

- the recording of where you surf, and reading of your emails - to the point where you can be convicted of a criminal offence for encrypting data and not providing the key on demand

Is all this stuff really necessay for a "free democracy" to exist ?

[Indiana_Jones]

My mates sister got bullied at a clothing shop she worked for.

Some psycho animal rights activists came and complained to her for selling fur coats.

She tried to tell them that they were cheap synthetic coats from China i.e. not fur, but they didn't seem to understand and vandalised the shop.

They obviously enjoyed the terrorising/activist part more than spreading the message about being nice to animals...

That is why I loathe such groups and people.

Total cunts, it's their way or the highway to them.

Should turn those hippie vegan pricks/dykes into a mammary vest, Ed Gein styles :woohoo:

-Indy

[SixPackBack]

I think if you view the well known documentary film "12 Monkeys" you will see that animal rights campaigners can be a very dangerous bunch of radical criminals, and their actions could very well have dire consequences.

Radical criminals?......animal rights campaigners will in centuries to come be viewed with the same reverence as those that rejected slavery and gave the vote to women.

Meat is murder, and totally unnecessary in the modern world. There is no need to murder sentient beings for us to survive, the fact we do speaks volumes about our collective greed, stupidity and arrogance. As the human race evolves this is one aspect of our behaviour that WILL change.

[Maha]

Radical criminals?......animal rights campaigners will in centuries to come be viewed with the same reverence as those that rejected slavery and gave the vote to women.

Meat is murder, and totally unnecessary in the modern world. There is no need to murder sentient beings for us to survive, the fact we do speaks volumes about our collective greed, stupidity and arrogance. As the human race evolves this is one aspect of our behaviour that WILL change.

Is that why Burger King have developed a Cologne, they have seen the writing on the wall? Smells of fried meat though.

[imdying]

Radical criminals?......animal rights campaigners will in centuries to come be viewed with the same reverence as those that rejected slavery and gave the vote to women.

Meat is murder, and totally unnecessary in the modern world. There is no need to murder sentient beings for us to survive, the fact we do speaks volumes about our collective greed, stupidity and arrogance. As the human race evolves this is one aspect of our behaviour that WILL change. Either you're a fucking moron or you're taking the piss.

See the teeth you've got, they're not for eating bloody grass are they...

[MisterD]

There is certainly evidence that Mr Gilchrist spied on Rochelle Rees (his girlfriend). Have you evidence that she is a criminal (bearing in mind your own frequent strictures about the laws of libel) ?

Yes, she said herself that after she found the emails (ok because she was given access to the computer in question to do some computer nerdery stuff) she then installed spyware to copy any future emails to her, plus a key logger and stuff (all by her own admission in SST interviews) that certainly is illegal...whereas what Gilchrist did may be immoral, but it is actually perfectly legal.

[James Deuce]

Radical criminals?......animal rights campaigners will in centuries to come be viewed with the same reverence as those that rejected slavery and gave the vote to women.

Meat is murder, and totally unnecessary in the modern world. There is no need to murder sentient beings for us to survive, the fact we do speaks volumes about our collective greed, stupidity and arrogance. As the human race evolves this is one aspect of our behaviour that WILL change.
Bollocks. We're omnivores. Look it up. There isn't, despite superstitious ranting saying otherwise, a vegetable product that can produce suitable types of protein that help maintain a healthy nutritional balance for human physiology. We do eat far too much red meat, and my own intake has dropped significantly, maybe once per forthnight, but most of the high protein bearing legumes are dangerously high in phyto-estrogen.

Our biggest problem is our calorie intake, and our apparent (including mine) inability to stay away from processed fat, salt, and sugar. But ditching meat altogether? It's going to take significant changes to physiology to pull that one off.

The only way to maintain a healthy vegan or vegetarian diet is to supplement heavily. Primates skim the top of the food chain, and that very position (the food chain isn't a hierarchy, it's a process) requires concentrated nutrients that don't occur in sufficient quantity at the bottom layers of the food chain. If you are a supplementing vege, don't think too hard about where the trace elements in your supplements come from.

[scumdog]

Blah-blah-blah...(with respect)

Is all this stuff really necessay for a "free democracy" to exist ?

Yes, as long as there are criminals and nut-cases we will need that knd of stuff, if everybody lived as they 'should' we wouldn't need anything like it at all.

But then your version of living as you should might differ from mine, hell I bet even kiddie-fiddlers thinks they are living a normal and proper life.

[scumdog]

Meat is murder, and totally unnecessary in the modern world. There is no need to murder sentient beings for us to survive, the fact we do speaks volumes about our collective greed, stupidity and arrogance. As the human race evolves this is one aspect of our behaviour that WILL change.

Oh bollocks, stop trolling!!

I've quite happily 'murdered' a few of those sentient beings to put in my deepfreeze, that's the reason they're on this world dontcha know?

[Skyryder]

Just getting back on track has any one considered the folly of this?

If Gilchrist had been targeting some ‘real’ terrorist threats non of this would have come out. He’d have been found with his dick cut off and his throat cut and that the best case scenario.

The fact that he could get away with this for eight years and not get caught in no way demonstrates his skill as an covert agent it just means that these so called ‘danger to society types do not have the means or skills to operate a counter intelligence capability. They might just now give this some thought.

That the SIG were too fucking dumb to have any backup in case of technical difficulties defies belief. This is a anti terrorist squad that is in place for our protection against serious terrorist threats.

The simple fact that this tightwad of simpleton was on the pay roll suggest to me that there is someone in SIG who needs hanging up by the balls for employing this fuckwit.

God only know what other dumb arses are out there ‘spooking’ on our behalf

And Collins sees no need for an enquiry. SACK HER KEY AND SHOW SOME REAL LEADERSHIP AND THE COP WHO EMPLOYED THIS FUCKER WITH HER.


Skyryder

[scumdog]

Just getting back on track has any one considered the folly of this?

If Gilchrist had been targeting some ‘real’ terrorist threats non of this would have come out. He’d have been found with his dick cut off and his throat cut and that the best case scenario.

The fact that he could get away with this for eight years and not get caught in no way demonstrates his skill as an covert agent it just means that these so called ‘danger to society types do not have the means or skills to operate a counter intelligence capability. They might just now give this some thought.

That the SIG were too fucking dumb to have any backup in case of technical difficulties defies belief. This is a anti terrorist squad that is in place for our protection against serious terrorist threats.

The simple fact that this tightwad of simpleton was on the pay roll suggest to me that there is someone in SIG who needs hanging up by the balls for employing this fuckwit.

God only know what other dumb arses are out there ‘spooking’ on our behalf

And Collins sees no need for an enquiry. SACK HER KEY AND SHOW SOME REAL LEADERSHIP AND THE COP WHO EMPLOYED THIS FUCKER WITH HER.


Skyryder

Is that a deliberate slip or did you actuall mean 'HERR KEY'? - and HERR CLARKE would have been the one behind this originally methinks....

[Skyryder]

Is that a deliberate slip or did you actuall mean 'HERR KEY'? - and HERR CLARKE would have been the one behind this originally methinks....

Yep Labour would have set it up.
I'd posted the same sentiments whoever. But she's been dumped so now it's Key.

Skyryder

[SixPackBack]

Either you're a fucking moron or you're taking the piss.

See the teeth you've got, they're not for eating bloody grass are they...

dang hard to argue witchya forrest:no:




Bollocks. We're omnivores. Look it up. There isn't, despite superstitious ranting saying otherwise, a vegetable product that can produce suitable types of protein that help maintain a healthy nutritional balance for human physiology. We do eat far too much red meat, and my own intake has dropped significantly, maybe once per forthnight, but most of the high protein bearing legumes are dangerously high in phyto-estrogen.

Our biggest problem is our calorie intake, and our apparent (including mine) inability to stay away from processed fat, salt, and sugar. But ditching meat altogether? It's going to take significant changes to physiology to pull that one off.

The only way to maintain a healthy vegan or vegetarian diet is to supplement heavily. Primates skim the top of the food chain, and that very position (the food chain isn't a hierarchy, it's a process) requires concentrated nutrients that don't occur in sufficient quantity at the bottom layers of the food chain. If you are a supplementing vege, don't think too hard about where the trace elements in your supplements come from.

Bullshit. Millions of vegans would prove you wrong.


Oh bollocks, stop trolling!!

I've quite happily 'murdered' a few of those sentient beings to put in my deepfreeze, that's the reason they're on this world dontcha know?

Your just sulking 'cos I sucked you in with my 'psychotic copper thread'.......as for the deep freeze, well what can I say? you southern boys aint the most lateral thinkers.

If there was a way of teleporting two centuries into the future you fuckers would be eating my shorts.............the signs are all around, a creeping disgust at fox hunts an the like are but the beginning.

[Street Gerbil]

What's there to spy for? The whole bunch just needs to be chucked into the mental clinic for their own good. (http://townhall.com/Columnists/LyleHRossiterJrMD/2006/12/04/the_liberal_mind_the_psychological_causes_of_polit ical_madness?comments=true#comments) Those loonies are anything but harmless.

[scumdog]

.........the signs are all around, a creeping disgust at fox hunts an the like are but the beginning. [/FONT]

Yeah, we done killed all the foxes down here - they were killing too many of our chooks and rabbits and we were running out of things to kill.

Ain't never seen no signs around though

And foxes tasted like crap BTW, no wonder people wanted to get rid of them....now them rabbits and deer and goats sure as hell were yummy though....:msn-wink:

[Ixion]

The plot thickens. It now comes out that Mr Gilchrist and the cops were not just spying on the loonie lefties. They were also spying on the Trade Unions. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10548960)

Anyone still want to argue that the police are not politicised ?

This has the potential to get *real* nasty. If the police have been digging up dirt on the private lives of trade union members on no basis other than that they are trade union members, they are not merely in breach of NZ law, but of international conventions to which NZ subscribes as well. no different to communist china , in fact.

I am just waiting for Mr Hitcher to point out that all trade union members by definition, are notorious criminals.

[trustme]

Either the SIS or the police have kept a watch over the more extreme elements of the trade union movement since they were formed especially during the cold war era when the russians tried to gain influence with the communist radicals within some of those organisations. None of this is new , grow up & move on

[Ixion]

I *am* the communist radical. Or I was, anyway. And I have no doubt that the cops are reporting what they find to the Business Round Table. I can recall a time when the revelation that Mr Gilchrist was spying on certain trade unions would mean a swiftly dead Mr Gilchrist.

The trade union movement is run by wimps nowadays, but i hope that this revelation will inspire some bottle in them .

And, an interesting admission, from someone obviously closely connected with the police force .

[candor]

I lived with a woman who was a child in Nazi Germany. Her prevailing memory of childhood apart from poverty and foraging for food off bushes was the quietness. People could not talk much even to family lest someone was spying for the Nazis - she was not even Jewish, but the Govt then was into everyones business.

She became a foremost world Jungian and myth expert (PhD) - interested in how people project their shadow selves and internal demons.

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
- Niemoller

Part of the problem is that the politically co-opted coppers aren't just surveilling nuts down here. And who is to say what constitutes a nut - a paranoid PM, or cronies thereof, perhaps in fear of losing total control of small pond?

I know of harmless, indeed helpful, non nuts in the road safety lobby world who've sure as hell been spied on the last 2 years. Known incidents covering 3 reputable organisations ranging from driving/riding training orgs to anti impaired driving groups to driver fatigue campaign groups include;
1) vehicle stolen with valued hard won Official Info Act papers within, then car found minus bulk papers that would show Govt up.... traced by ex cop to a subcontracted job ordered from on high.
2) phone taps in which people heard whoever was listening talking about whether the spies had intercepted the said orgs call yet - very poor spying technique
3) people attempting to join road safety groups with no credible reason given as to why and initially making a flurry of ph calls to said road safety groups asking pre-election questions of workers such as - do you know Key or anyone who knows him, do you know John Minto... followed by a long list of other activists totally alien to the road safety world. Huh :beer:

When our 3 orgs compared notes to find a common experience of either lunatics monitoring us for no comprehensible reason... or Govt sticking nose in being the only other option... we concluded it unlikely (given all our lacks of links with non road safety activism or crime or Mr Rambuka)... that the Govt, if any intelligence lurked there, could see any of our orgs as security risks IRA style even at a stretch unless advisors were on P....

....so this was the conclusion ever so tentatively drawn; that insecure unpopular pollies were simply misusing taxpayer funds, or alternately hiring private spy squads ie privately retained, to monitor all those who could just possibly oneday close to elections - say mean media targeted words about the encumbent dynasty.

Spying on genuine road safety charities and the like is real uncool, if anyone reading here is guilty of ordering that SHAME ON YOU. Do your jobs, and you won't need to be paranoid re the civic minded activities or plans of those serfs organised in unions, political groups, churches or educational spheres.
A snaffled media and pervasive spying signals pseudodemocratic times.

Now we know what was meant by a knowledge economy by 2010 :(
Interesing that all this over spying comes out at the same time a German landmine is found on the West Coast! Interesting too that our female leaders have not seen fit to equip NZ troops in Afghanistan with armoured vehicles like the Yanks get. Or so a soldiers wife told me last week. Lets hope for more concern about real threats to Kiwi life, and less about snooping to ad management of popularity polls.

[scumdog]

Meeeh, you are all a bunch of paranoid twats, I have never been directed to spy on trade unions and stuff like that.

[MisterD]

The plot thickens. It now comes out that Mr Gilchrist and the cops were not just spying on the loonie lefties. They were also spying on the Trade Unions. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10548960)

There's a difference?:gob:

[RantyDave]

Meeeh, you are all a bunch of paranoid twats, I have never been directed to spy on trade unions and stuff like that.
Awwwwww, the nasty boys making you do all the stinky jobs while they have all the fun? Poor baby.

Dave

[SixPackBack]

Meeeh, you are all a bunch of paranoid twats, I have never been directed to spy on trade unions and stuff like that.

Scumdog no way are the big boys gunna play with 'tyre chalkers' like your self

[Skyryder]

Meeeh, you are all a bunch of paranoid twats, I have never been directed to spy on trade unions and stuff like that.

:Oi:



The only paranoid twats:no: I've come across are the ones that wont let me in.:jerry:


Skyryder

[scumdog]

Scumdog no way are the big boys gunna play with 'tyre chalkers' like your self

C'mon, when it comes to speed ticket-writing we're all the same arsehole bunch - now you're telling me we're segregated into big boys and tyre-chalkers??:shifty:

[SixPackBack]

C'mon, when it comes to speed ticket-writing we're all the same arsehole bunch - now you're telling me we're segregated into big boys and tyre-chalkers??:shifty:

Uhhu........Don't cry yourself to sleep:mellow:

[mudlover]

"I would suggest that you F*ck off"

Grow some balls you piece of shit. At least put your name to it. I can take a bit of forum bashing you pussy.

Internettoughcunt should really be your name

[wbks]

"I would suggest that you F*ck off"

Grow some balls you piece of shit. At least put your name to it. I can take a bit of forum bashing you pussy.

Internettoughcunt should really be your nameThis isn't Gilchrist, is it?

[imdying]

Oh you poor little dear :wah:

[mudlover]

no it's not gilchrist.

And my comments are referenced to the people have told me to F off or some other casual observations that have been made. (Very big of you, my userCP is my life, call me a whambulance so I can have cry)

Simply because I am arguing a point and that is obviously too much to concentrate on and hurts their brains.

A fair discussion turns to veiled threats...i don't think so guys. I have no reason to fear you. oh hang on, I think i just urinated a bit in my alpinestars...maybe I should film everything and worry about who looks thru my posts on forums and and oh the tinfoil hats must come out, they can read my thoughts shhhhhh don't think to hard, it sends out a tracking beam for them

[The Lone Rider]

BAM!

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0812/S00278.htm

[Virago]

That "article" is six months old. Get a new hobby.

[Indiana_Jones]

I bet she needed a shave big time....

-Indy

[RantyDave]

That "article" is six months old. Get a new hobby.
Totally. This is a pretty nuts piece of thread dredging.

Dave