GSX1400 dyno graphs

[jrandom]

Runs done at TripleZee Cycles (http://www.triplezeecycles.co.nz/Index.html) in Manukau this week on my GSX1400 K7, before and after installation of a BMC air filter and a bit of tweaking to the fuelling.

The bike has a TBR muffler - I'd be interested to see what it would've measured with the stock exhaust. A fair bit less power, I suspect. Too much hassle to take that measurement now just for the sake of curiosity, though.

No Dynojet equipment involved; these numbers represent reasonably meaningful rear-wheel HP on the day.

Make of it what you will...

:sunny:

[Gremlin]

Unless the fuel was way out, and more was done, as you can see, the addition of an air filter doesn't do much. But if you increase throughout other areas, then the change is more noticeable...

Only Suzuki (or maybe Hardley) would need 1400cc to get 95 hp :Pokey:

[jrandom]

Only Suzuki (or maybe Hardley) would need 1400cc to get 95 hp

Ah, but over 80 foot pounds of torque from 2500 rpm is a beautiful thing. Old-school aircooled IL4s ftw!

And, pfft, good luck getting a gen-ewe-eyne 95rwhp out of a Twin Cam 88 without spending thousands of dollars turning it into something almost, but not quite, entirely unlike what came out of the factory...

:doobey:

[kiwifruit]

Litre bikes for breakfast, lunch and tea!! :first:

[nallac]

looking at that low down torque,it'd be a blast to ride.
and full horseys by 6500 makes an ideal NZ road bike.

I never realised that they where such low rev'ers.

[jrandom]

Litre bikes for breakfast, lunch and tea!!

She'd give your 4-litre inline six the learn au.

[jrandom]

looking at that low down torque,it'd be a blast to ride.
and full horseys by 6500 makes an ideal NZ road bike.

Fuckin oath, beautiful bike to ride. The numbers on paper don't do it justice.


I never realised that they where such low rev'ers.

Very soft stock cam profile.

The word on gsx1400.org is that something slightly less mild (Yoshi do a Stage 1 kit) lets that power curve ramp straight up to the redline at 9000rpm.

Om nom nom nom!

I should probably upgrade the suspension first.

[Scouse]

So have you got your licence back just in time for Christmas?

[Scouse]

Only Suzuki (or maybe Hardley) would need 1400cc to get 95 hp :Pokey:cor you can be such a nob end somtimes, anyway even with "only 95 hp" I recon Beyond would show you the way around Coro even if you were still riding yer ZX10.

[jrandom]

So have you got your licence back just in time for Christmas?

Nope. April 2009. Strictly confined to the track until then.

[Sully60]

Very soft stock cam profile.

The word on gsx1400.org is that something slightly less mild (Yoshi do a Stage 1 kit) lets that power curve ramp straight up to the redline at 9000rpm.



Surely one of those engines would be good for much bigger numbers without going full on with the internals.

I was surprised to see redline at only 9K signed well off by then anyway, do you know if you can get a few more revs with a Power Commander or different ECU etc? Another 750 of 1000 revs with the cam you mention would good for a nice figure well over 100 without losing too much of that full cream midrange.



I should probably upgrade the suspension first.



Ohlins?
:shutup:

[Gremlin]

anyway even with "only 95 hp" I recon Beyond would show you the way around Coro even if you were still riding yer ZX10.
There's no replacement for displacement!! :doobey: Besides... the road is not a racetrack young man :lol:

someone tell me why I dropped a third of the hp off, and I'm having more fun

[jrandom]

Surely one of those engines would be good for much bigger numbers without going full on with the internals.

Swapping the cams out isn't 'full on with the internals' in my books. If you look at the lift and timing on the stock ones it's the most obvious first tuning step.


I was surprised to see redline at only 9K signed well off by then anyway, do you know if you can get a few more revs with a Power Commander or different ECU etc?

Absolutely. The TripleZee man favours the Yoshi ECU over a Power Commander. And, no point swapping the cams out if you can't set up the ignition to work properly with them hey, so it'd be a given.


without losing too much of that full cream midrange.

Well, y'see, the word is that you can keep that full cream midrange and add some top end with a bit more aggression on the valves au. It's a seriously detuned motor in stock form.


Ohlins?

Only if I can source it via eBay.

But when I can get a very nice pair of fully adjustable Hagon rear shocks for NZ$800... which, oddly enough, is an openly advertised price that matches what they sell for overseas... it's a bit of a no-brainer, eh?

[Sully60]

Swapping the cams out isn't 'full on with the internals' in my books.



Of course not, you need to remove the cams to adjust the valve clearances, no point putting the standard ones back in if you've got some less pointy ones.:devil2:



Well, y'see, the word is that you can keep that full cream midrange and add some top end with a bit more aggression on the valves au. It's a seriously detuned motor in stock form.

That would be quite an interesting machine to ride if your able to keep that fat line in the middle of the graph and make it keep going for longer, you may need to fit some clip ons though or otherwise get forearms like Popeye, Ya ca ca ca ca ca!

Suzuki are good at making inline fours strong, like old GSX1100 engines, built to last.
It's always a compromise with engine life, NVH and manitenance intervals etc, but meh, how long to you plan to keep it anyway?

[jrandom]

how long to you plan to keep it anyway?

She'd make a great Post Classics racer.

:first:

[Sully60]

She'd make a great Post Classics racer.

:first:

Awww, isn't that sweet. You can grow old and wear out together:laugh:

[Scouse]

Was having a look around Holeshot today they are summerfesting them off at $11,995 with a yoshi Triangular end can and I'm thinking hmmmm this would make a great second bike. So much bike for the money and I am sure it will be a way more interesting bike than a 1250 Bandit.

[martybabe]

Was having a look around Holeshot today they are summerfesting them off at $11,995 with a yoshi Triangular end can and I'm thinking hmmmm this would make a great second bike. So much bike for the money and I am sure it will be a way more interesting bike than a 1250 Bandit.

Bloody bargain, if only I had the money.Take one out scouse, great bikes.

[Hitcher]

Those charts show that there is little value in the BMC compared to the stock air filter.

And torque surfing surely is a wondrous thing.

[FruitLooPs]

The Factory Pro site has a list of various bikes for approxmiate HP numbers for reference. No old oil boiler 1100's or 1400's though :(

http://www.factorypro.com/dyno/true1.html

I must say though, if a GSX600 can make nearly 70hp at the rear wheel that 1400 could make a lazy 120 no worries surely. The old built oil boiler 750's could make 120 in race trim I believe.


But yes, I can't imagine what the torque on that thing would be like :eek:

[Sully60]

Those charts show that there is little value in the BMC compared to the stock air filter.


They also don't show the value the first time you reuse the BMC filter, rather than throw away the stock item.

[jrandom]

Those charts show that there is little value in the BMC compared to the stock air filter.

Little power gain, indeed.

Just swapping the muffler gave a significant power gain, mind you. I don't have comparative dyno measurements, but the top speed (with me on board) going from an indicated 230 to an indicated 250 speaks volumes.


that 1400 could make a lazy 120 no worries surely.

I'm sure that the 1400 would easily exceed that mark with appropriate modifications to the valve lifts and ignition timing.

But I'm not sure I'll ever bother. It's quite lovely just the way it is now.


I can't imagine what the torque on that thing would be like

Take one out for a ride and see.

[Pixie]

For comparison here's a GSF 1200 curve.
The 1250 will piss all over this.
In reality full throttle curves are meaningless - when was the last time anyone had the throttle against the stop at high revs on the road on a big bike?
It's what the part throttle curves look like that tells us what a bike is like to ride.

[jrandom]

For comparison here's a GSF 1200 curve.

Aren't Dynojet measurements awesome?

:sunny:

[Pixie]

All dynamometers are comparative.
Unless you run all vehicles on the same dyno with the same correction factors the comparisons are pointless.

Also these are inertial dynos ,not proper brakes.
In other words - mickey mouse.

Inertia Sweep: An inertia dyno system that provides a fixed inertial mass flywheel and computes the power required to accelerate the flywheel (load) from the starting to the ending rpm. The actual rotational mass of the engine or engine and vehicle in the case of a chassis dyno is not known and the variability of even tire mass will skew power results. The inertia value of the flywheel is "fixed", so low power engines are under load for a much longer time and internal engine temperatures are usually too high by the end of the test, skewing optimal "dyno" tuning settings away from the outside world's optimal tuning settings. Conversely, high powered engines, commonly complete a common "4th gear sweep" test in less than 10 seconds, which is not a reliable load condition as compared to operation in the outside world. By not providing enough time under load, internal combustion chamber temps are unrealistically low and power readings, especially past the power peak, are skewed low.

[The Stranger]

Get a real one (http://www.holeshot.com/). Check out the "Dale's new Drag Bike" link.

[tri boy]

But when I can get a very nice pair of fully adjustable Hagon rear shocks for NZ$800... which, oddly enough, is an openly advertised price that matches what they sell for overseas... it's a bit of a no-brainer, eh?

Plus the extra $500 for the chiropractor.:shit:
Seriously mate, don't go down the Hagon path. Been there, done that.
Not putting any other brand on a pedestal, but Hagon is rubbish, with a capital R.

[jrandom]

Also these are inertial dynos ,not proper brakes.
In other words - mickey mouse.

TripleZee, who tuned my bike, use a proper brake dyno (http://www.triplezeecycles.co.nz/DynoTuning/DynoTuning.html).

:niceone:

[jrandom]

Hagon is rubbish, with a capital R.

Mmkay. What was wrong with it?

[dipshit]

They also don't show the value the first time you reuse the BMC filter, rather than throw away the stock item.

So it's about being a tight-arse and saving money instead of having to buy a new filter?

What I don't like about these aftermarket filters is that material is more open to allow more air flow - but that then requires an oil to trap the finer particles.

If you over oil it you will lose air flow. If you under oil it finer particles will get through into your engine.

It may be fine for a short-lived race bike engine, but I wouldn't gamble with it on a road bike for the small difference in HP.

Replacing the standard filter with a new one when required will keep your HP good.


edit: Unless of course there is a foolproof way of oiling them...???

[tri boy]

Re Hagon.
Very harsh compression action, length of available stroke equaled out to approx 70mm, Could never get the rebound operation to my liking.
To be fair, the spring fitted was within cooee of my weight/stacic, and laden sag, but the action of the shock, (on my Daytona) faded very quickly on rides.
Wether that was internal friction or poor oil/charge, I don't know.

Basically, I removed it, contacted our local KB guru and got something that actually works properly. (the Hay Gone) is now covered in cobwebs at the back of the shed. At least the spyders have found a use for it.

Try a WP, Sachs, YSS, whatever, but be careful with that Hagon brand. MHO
Actually, YSS is now supplied from White Wholesale in Hamilhole. Give them a call. They make up twin shocks to your specs. From all accounts, they have become a very good mid range product after a few teething problems.

[Pixie]

TripleZee, who tuned my bike, use a proper brake dyno (http://www.triplezeecycles.co.nz/DynoTuning/DynoTuning.html).

:niceone:

I'll make a note of that.I didn't think anyone in NZ had gone to the expense of buying a proper dyno.
What do they charge to do a run?

[scumdog]

Only Suzuki (or maybe Hardley) would need 1400cc to get 95 hp :Pokey:

Pffft, my H-D has is the sought-after '25KW model' and has the label stating so, - none of your archaic 'hp' crap here sonny!!

[jrandom]

I'll make a note of that.I didn't think anyone in NZ had gone to the expense of buying a proper dyno.
What do they charge to do a run?

They charged me $395 to supply and install a BMC air filter and use their Teka Tune wossname to tweak the fuelling. Obviously a few dyno runs were involved in that.

Not sure what they'd charge for a single run, it might be up on the website? Or just give them a yell, they're good cunts.

[Pixie]

Did they adjust the stock GSX 1400 ECU or do you have a power commander or similar?

I've emailed them to see if they can adjust the GSF 1250 ECU

[Owl]

edit: Unless of course there is a foolproof way of oiling them...???

Pretty easy to get right and even a novice like me can do it! Instruction's are pretty easy to follow!:yes:

[limbimtimwim]

Did they adjust the stock GSX 1400 ECU or do you have a power commander or similar?That's the Teka tuner Jrandom refers too. It changes the stock ECU. No need for the end user to buy a box.

[beyond]

Here you go mate. Can have 300hp at the REAR wheel from the 14 :)
Think of the torque.

http://www.holeshot-racing.co.uk/index.php?page=gsx1400-turbo

[The Stranger]

I'll make a note of that.I didn't think anyone in NZ had gone to the expense of buying a proper dyno.
What do they charge to do a run?

What makes it a proper dyno?

[boomer]

What makes it a proper dyno?

Hamsters and a few Chinese...

[Sensei]

I'm happy with my 240KW at the rear & 678Nm of torque at 3460rpm :bleh::bleh:

[Owl]

I'm happy with my 240KW at the rear & 678Nm of torque at 3460rpm :bleh::bleh:

:laugh:With a dry weight of how many thousnd kilo's?

[limbimtimwim]

What makes it a proper dyno?LavaRnd make a minter: http://www.lavarnd.org/

[Sensei]

:laugh:With a dry weight of how many thousnd kilo's?

Arh about 1463-KG :whistle: So about the same weight as a GSX1400 LOL

[jrandom]

What makes it a proper dyno?

http://www.triplezeecycles.co.nz/DynoTuning/DynosCompare.html

[FROSTY]

my take on the graph---shift at 7k till in top--not much point revvin her out shes out of the best power delivery

[beyond]

my take on the graph---shift at 7k till in top--not much point revvin her out shes out of the best power delivery

Exactly Frosty. Ride the torque and power wave. Shifting at 7k gives the best progress. :)

[bikerboy011]

How much did the dyno run cost you? as am planning to do a tune and a custom map once i get the headers and PCIII.:D

[cowpoos]

Only Suzuki (or maybe Hardley) would need 1400cc to get 95 hp :Pokey:


Well as a matter of fact...my guess would be that the dyno that was used would have been a factory pro?? not a dynojet make shit up and add unwarrented large bullshit corrections to every thing inertia dyno...

So the figure he has been given is a really one...based on the engine being loaded...rather than mathmatical theory and marketing [people love the big figures that dynojets and other similar dyno's spit out!!]

and at the end of the day its a comparitive figure anyway.. a basis for further tuning and refinment of the engine. and as Dan notes the tourque figure is very important....as Horse power is mearly a calculation...not a actual physical force.

[jrandom]

Well as a matter of fact...my guess would be that the dyno that was used would have been a factory pro??

FactoryPro EC997a, apparently. Plus something called an Integrated Hi Speed EPA Spec 4 Gas Exhaust Analyser. Which is what the bottom line on the graph's all about, I guess.

[TripleZee Dyno]

How much did the dyno run cost you? as am planning to do a tune and a custom map once i get the headers and PCIII.:D
Hi
Generally speaking mapping a PC you would be looking at a minimum of $360
That would get the map pretty good but there will be areas that may need a bit extra work. If these areas dont look as if they will be a problem on the road then we dont worry about them. Unless you want us to.
You can never actually get a map 100% perfect, only better than it was.
But considering the factories put 1000's of hours/$$$ into it without quite getting it right, we do OK.
Just give us a ring whenever if you have any questions, queries etc
cheers
John

[TripleZee Dyno]

Those charts show that there is little value in the BMC compared to the stock air filter.

And torque surfing surely is a wondrous thing.

We would normally expect 1-2-3 hp through the range but in this case not a lot of difference. Even the gains down low are probably due to tuning to suit the exhaust. With max torque around 4 1/2 I would imagine (I havent seen inside one of these motors so I dont actually know) that ports valves and cams would all be pretty conservative and it is likely something in this area is the choke point rather than the aircleaner. Aftermarket filters would probably come into their own if cylinder head work was done.
Check this out. The M109 is bog stock.

[Sully60]

Check this out. The M109 is bog stock.

Wow, those curves are amazingly similar for two very different machines!

[Max Preload]

...as Dan notes the torque figure is very important....as Horse power is mearly a calculation...not a actual physical force.

It's not merely a calculation. Horsepower is effectively the rate at which torque is delivered, without which the torque value is meaningless.

[jrandom]

A quick update to this.

I've had the bike back on the road since last week for the first time since the tune.

The fuel economy seems to have improved a solid 10-20%. I'm now getting a reliable > 300km per tank from highway cruising and > 250km per tank around town.

Boo-yah!

Thanks, TripleZee.

:niceone:

[The Stranger]

A quick update to this.

I've had the bike back on the road since last week for the first time since the tune.

The fuel economy seems to have improved a solid 10-20%. I'm now getting a reliable > 300km per tank from highway cruising and > 250km per tank around town.

Boo-yah!

Thanks, TripleZee.

:niceone:

Yes, interesting to note that you can get an improvement in fuel economy along with that improvement in power.

All my mods are justified as fuel economy and/or safety mods.

Mind you with the XT adding a power commander, air filter and pipes really has improved economy significantly.