Emergency braking

[Icemaestro]

Hi this is a combination question - I've only been riding for a short while, had to brake in a hurry a couple of times as people pull out in front - and have to transfer my grip from the throttle to the brake lever - I've read some places to keep the 3rd and 4th fingers sitting on the lever, but when I do this I don't have any control over the throttle? Therefore do I need to perhaps adjust the free play of my brake lever so that it sits closer to the grip?

Replies much appreciated, cheers :-)

[roy.nz]

Hi this is a combination question - I've only been riding for a short while, had to brake in a hurry a couple of times as people pull out in front - and have to transfer my grip from the throttle to the brake lever - I've read some places to keep the 3rd and 4th fingers sitting on the lever, but when I do this I don't have any control over the throttle? Therefore do I need to perhaps adjust the free play of my brake lever so that it sits closer to the grip?

Replies much appreciated, cheers :-)

Have you tried adjusting the front brake lever closer to your hand? Personally i hang my index finger on the lever all the time when in traffic and cover the rear brake with my foot. Hope it helps :rockon:

[MyGSXF]

Keep all your fingers around the throttle!! :niceone: & when braking, use all 4 fingers on the lever! check out this post below.. :yes:


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1491921&postcount=7

The lever should be in such a position, so that you move it with the first joints on your fingers (not a "hand movement", fingers only!) & it should be a straight line down your arm & down your fingers, when your hand is on the lever.

Always keep your eyes UP & looking way ahead, not down in front of you!! You need to be constantly scanning the road ahead of you, to be ready to take action against any possible threat.. ie: cars pulling out in front of you. :2thumbsup

Here is a list of your AK mentors.. get in touch with 1 of them & book in to spend some quality time!! :scooter:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/mentors.php?do=list

[The Stranger]

Have you tried adjusting the front brake lever closer to your hand? Personally i hang my index finger on the lever all the time when in traffic and cover the rear brake with my foot. Hope it helps :rockon:

In an emergency you will do what you have been conditioned to do.
One finger braking and rear brake are not the most effective way to stop.
Particularly when we see so often that people who cover the brake, in an emergency often fail to drop the throttle - really doesn't help stopping distances.

Front brake, 4 fingers or nothing.
Better feel and dexterity and on a bike such as a GSXR when you have the most effective brake working at it's most effective you will have 100 to nothing on the front anyway, so the back is useless.

Speaking to a bike cop the other day and he notes an increase in the incidence of motorcycle deaths attributable to the use of the rear brake (and hill crests).

[Ocean1]

Speaking to a bike cop the other day and he notes an increase in the incidence of motorcycle deaths attributable to the use of the rear brake (and hill crests).

Can you elaborate? Did he mean using the rear only? Or is there somat else going on there?

[Ixion]

It's called covering the brake. Some folk think it a good idea. I am not of their number. Mainly because it reinforces the learners instinctive instinct (if already a cager , anyway) that the answer to a dangerous situation is to brake.

Mostly, it is not. Bikes are not very good at braking , that stability thing. We are much better at dodging. But once committed to an emergeny brake session it is hard to let go and swerve.

[98tls]

Personally i wont cover the rear brake in case of the unexpected,rear brakes in my experiance are shite to begin with and a stomp under panic will produce nothing but an outta control bike which will only add to your woes,i get along at good pace and have done for many many years and never have i ridden with fingers at the ready on front brake either,you will work out pretty quickly if thats for you or not ie a personal thing far more important is to keep your head at the ready.Fwiw

[BMWST?]

Bikes are not very good at braking , that stability thing. We are much better at dodging. But once committed to an emergeny brake session it is hard to let go and swerve.


bikes are not very manouverable at higher speeds ...and once commited to a stop a car driver is just as unlkely to change.We can fit through small gaps if we dont have to move much

[98tls]

:confused:WTF:mellow:

[The Stranger]

Can you elaborate? Did he mean using the rear only? Or is there somat else going on there?

No.
I "assume" rear only as in see a problem and stomp the foot.
Pass.

[Icemaestro]

Keep all your fingers around the throttle!! :niceone: & when braking, use all 4 fingers on the lever! check out this post below.. :yes:


Thanks, that's what I was going for :-) that's what I've been doing. I've got a mentor - he's away at the moment lol. if you're braking slowly while changing down (aka engine braking also) do you still blip the throttle to stop the bike doing a jerk as the clutch is released?

[MyGSXF]

I've got a mentor

Xlnt!! :Punk:


if you're braking slowly while changing down.. do you still blip the throttle

I'm not up there on being able to impart the "technical stuff" of what's going on in an engine, when said blipping is happening.. :shutup: but I can however tell you, that the answer is.. Yes, you do! :2thumbsup

edit: go out for a ride & try both ways.. blipping & not blipping.. & see the difference it makes. :niceone:

[AlBundy]

Any time you change down through the box, the 'blip' helps to increase the engine rpm to help match the next lower gear (since the rpm is higher due to lower ratio). This makes for smoother down-changes.

As for braking. As far as I'm concerned, learn to use both.
Yes, when riding at 'track' pace, rear brakes aren't worth much. How many people brake that hard on the road? As stated above, many people panic brake and stomp on the rear, which locks up and spits them off. So, either don't use it, or learn to use it... The motard has definately been a good tool for learning rear brake control... And I'm still learning...
Regarding front brake... Be smooth and progressive. Whether you decide to cover the brake or not, it's up to you. Many people cover the front with one, sometimes two fingers (INDEX AND MIDDLE). As Strangedude said above, there's definately more feel and control with more... The key... SQUEEZE, don't grab. When one squeezes, the weight is progressively put on the front contact patch, it also loads the suspension slowly. By doing it this way, you can litterally do a stoppie without concern for locking the front... If however, you GRAB, you stand a 50/50 chance of either doing a stoppie, or locking the front wheel...

PS: Watch some GP racing... Stoner uses his middle finger only for front brakes, while Rossi uses four fingers... Just shows that EVERYONE has a different idea of what works for them...

Sorry for the waffle-on... Hope some of it makes sense...

[MyGSXF]

Any time you change down through the box, the 'blip' helps to increase the engine rpm to help match the next lower gear (since the rpm is higher due to lower ratio). This makes for smoother down-changes.

Makes perfect sense!! :innocent:

[MyGSXF]

Many people cover the front with one, sometimes two fingers (INDEX AND MIDDLE). Stoner uses his middle finger only for front brakes, while Rossi uses four fingers... Just shows that EVERYONE has a different idea of what works for them

It is important to use all 4 fingers on the front brake.. a couple of reasons for this.. our index & pinky fingers are pairs.. & our middle & ring fingers are pairs.. the index & middle fingers don't have the same strength that "pairs" do. :no:

& also my instructor told us how he watched a fella pull his glove off & shake it.. to get his 2 amputated fingers out of it.. :shit: after doing an emergency brake with only 2 fingers on the lever.. the other two got totally squished by the lever being pulled back hard in against the handlebar.. :sick: also, the brake cannot be pulled in completely, to bring you to a safe emergency stop, with fingers in the way :niceone:

[howdamnhard]

Hey Icemaestro,contact blackbird,he sent me a really good article on a study of what was the best method of emergency braking.You should have chopped your throttle before making all 4 fingers avaliable for braking.The back brake helps bring the weight onto the front.Squeeze the front progressively as the weight comes onto it and it shouldn't lock up as the tyre squishes down increasing it's contact patch/grip.Note as weight comes onto front ,it come off the back making your back brakes less effective(it may skid but don't worry about it ) just focus on the front brake.
Find a nice quiet road and practice,start slowly and work up to it,practice until it becomes a reflex as in a emergency you often haven't got time to think about it.Anyway read the article and practice.
As Ixion pointed out previously emergency braking won't always save you there is always the option to swerve.I learnt this doing a lot of high speed travelling a long time ago , where your braking distances are huge.Often braking as hard as you can to bleed off speed/energy and then releasing brakes and steering around the obstacle has saved my skin.If I had only braked I would have collided.
Anyway take care and good luck.

[AlBundy]

& also my instructor told us how he watched a fella pull his glove off & shake it.. to get his 2 amputated fingers out of it.. :shit: after doing an emergency brake with only 2 fingers on the lever.. the other two got totally squished by the lever being pulled back hard in against the handlebar.. :sick: also, the brake cannot be pulled in completely, to bring you to a safe emergency stop, with fingers in the way :niceone:

I call BS on that one...

But yes, it may very well limit your front lever travel if you have them set up that way, that you won't get full pull...

[The Stranger]

Hey Icemaestro,contact blackbird,he sent me a really good article on a study of what was the best method of emergency braking.

I obviously can not say I am familiar with the article to which you refer, however, with any such study I strongly suggest you look at the test methodology and not just the result. There was one such study referred to on KB a while back where -
1) There was a full size mac in protective case mounted rear of the rear axle to monitor the sensors on the bikes (no mention as to how it was powered).
2) The bikes were fitted with outriggers so they could not be dropped.
3) Two thirds of the tests (by experienced riders) were rejected as non compliant with their methodology.

Come on - the mac with protective case rear of the rear axle had to add 20kg to the rear.
Out riggers? Not sure of your bikes, but mine don't have em.
Only 1 in 3? FFS, in an emergency how many tries do you get? Whoa back it up and try that one again please.

[The Stranger]

if you're braking slowly while changing down (aka engine braking also) do you still blip the throttle to stop the bike doing a jerk as the clutch is released?

I never blip the throttle. I know a lot of people do, including many racers.
I have always found that I can control the release of the clutch just fine and/or simply apply a little throttle on release of the clutch to match engine speed, or just pop the clutch if the mood takes me.

On the XT which is a single with significant engine braking I usually just bang it down a gear or 2 and drop the clutch, the rear may lock or chatter, so what?

Personally, I don't see it as a big issue, if you can do it comfortably sure why not?

[howdamnhard]

[QUOTE=The Stranger;1866729]I obviously can not say I am familiar with the article to which you refer, however, with any such study I strongly suggest you look at the test methodology and not just the result. There was one such study referred to on KB a while back where -

Agreed,studies can be biased and not reflect real world conditions.I don't recall this study using outriggers etc,but it was so long ago since I read it I cannot remember for sure. For me it was what to do and in what order that counted.I then had an idea what to and how to practice.It helped greatly in that respect and with practice became instinctive and has saved my bacon on two occasions.

[AlBundy]

I never blip the throttle. I know a lot of people do, including many racers.
I have always found that I can control the release of the clutch just fine and/or simply apply a little throttle on release of the clutch to match engine speed, or just pop the clutch if the mood takes me.

On the XT which is a single with significant engine braking I usually just bang it down a gear or 2 and drop the clutch, the rear may lock or chatter, so what?

Personally, I don't see it as a big issue, if you can do it comfortably sure why not?

By blipping, it means you don't have to slip the clutch as much, or apply throttle to match engine speed...

As for banging down two gears and letting the rear lock/chatter... Awesome newb advice, but you are a MENTOR, so you must be right...

[The Stranger]

By blipping, it means you don't have to slip the clutch as much, or apply throttle to match engine speed...

No, but you have to blip, which is an additional action, releasing the clutch and/or applying throttle is no additional action, as these were going to be done anyway. Again, NOT arguing against blipping, but your argument is spurious.

As for banging down two gears and letting the rear lock/chatter... Awesome newb advice, but you are a MENTOR, so you must be right...

I must admit, I enjoy quoting out of context to rark people up too but this one is a little too obvious. Please try again soon.

[AlBundy]

No, but you have to blip, which is an additional action, releasing the clutch and/or applying throttle is no additional action, as these were going to be done anyway. Again, NOT arguing against blipping, but your argument is spurious.
.

It may be an additional action but then one could say that slipping the clutch would involve a fair amount of concentration too.

There's also the theory that brakes are for slowing and some people frown upon using the engine/clutch for that purpose...

Argument? I thought it was a discussion...

[vifferman]

I don't cover the brakes (I've tried it, but somehow it makes me anxious and more likely to panic brake). I also (mostly) use index and middle finger, and both brakes, so I get ALL pistons working both ends of the bike (6 at the front, 3 at the back). DCBS FTW! :niceone:

[awayatc]

Bikes are not very good at braking , that stability thing. We are much better at dodging. But once committed to an emergeny brake session it is hard to let go and swerve.

absolutely true....couple of days ago started to pass a line of cars, was committed, speed was rapidly getting up .....one car suddenly decided to indicate to the right and started to turn...., quickly braking slowed me down some but never enough, swerving to pass him on the left was going to work..BUt he must have seen me in the last second and swerved back to the left.... fistfull of trottle and a quick swerve to the right saved the day....



It is important to use all 4 fingers on the front brake.. a couple of reasons for this..

also, the brake cannot be pulled in completely, to bring you to a safe emergency stop, with fingers in the way :niceone:

was used to rockhard frontbrakes, got my "new" Aprilia and needed to scrub of speed rapidly...Braked with 2 fingers as per habit....cought the other 2 between lever and handlebar, could not squeeze any harder because of fingers caught and froze up for a second so could not retrieve fingers....
New mastercylinder and braided lines gives me rockhard brake again, but 2 finger braking no more.....

[The Stranger]

It may be an additional action but then one could say that slipping the clutch would involve a fair amount of concentration too.

There's also the theory that brakes are for slowing and some people frown upon using the engine/clutch for that purpose...

Argument? I thought it was a discussion...



Ok, so you are a racer wishing to reach the pinicle of racing perhaps blipping the throttle is of some use, indeed perhaps it is of great import and you are never going to be truely great until you have mastered this highly prized skill.
Now rewind to learning to ride. You are a noob, there are a hundred things you need to focus on at any one time. Where does blipping the throttle lie in the order of import?

Let me assure you, it lays well below the controlled use of your motorbikes controls, which is all I am advocating. If you are ham fisted with the clutch and it requires a large amount of your concentration, you have potentially much bigger problems. What about the throttle and the brakes?
Being ham fisted with those is far more likely to get you killed, so personally I would focus on that over learning to blip the throttle whilst braking.

Comments like " Awesome newb advice, but you are a MENTOR, so you must be right..." are not intended to be constructive and are argumentitive, however a little hint, there is more than one meaning of the word argument.

PS. Just noticed the abusive comments in the red rep, man lay off the bottle eh, we were only having a discussion, no need to go all psycho over it.:rockon:

[Icemaestro]

Goodness...what have I started. Haha yeah I find that I get my two fingers stuck between the lever and the grip so guess that puts that out for me! todaay seems to have turned to crap so no practice today :-) thanks for all the advice.

[Sparrowhawk]

I too have read an article about braking recently, like howdamnhard. It was in Two Wheels magazine.

It suggested that an accidents don't 'happen', they 'evolve' out of a combination of situations, events, and decisions. The author said that if you see a potential accident start to evolve ahead of you, roll off the throttle, very gently squeeze the front brakes, and keep watching. If everything turns to custard up ahead :eek5:, you're already in a braking 'attitude' (pads against the disk, front forks slightly compressed, front tyre flattening out increasing rubber on road), and your reaction time is decreased because you don't have to move your hand.

If things don't turn to custard, you can just get back on the throttle and keep riding :ride:

If you'd like a copy of the article, PM me & I can photocopy & snail-mail it to you. It's good reading

[The Stranger]

Goodness...what have I started.

Great isn't it, and you didn't even have to try.
Now imagine how much shit you can cause if you put your mind to it.

[pritch]

I find this thread somewhat disturbing.

Having tried to read it I have no idea what some of you are on about. Given that this includes people with Me after their name that's a worry.

Being charitable it may be that people are interpreting the phrase "emergency braking" differently?

Ienatch and Pridmore in their respective texts both advise two fingers for the front brake. This facilitates down changes but gives more than enough leverage on most modern bikes. If you are in danger of squashing your fingers, best you sort your bloody bike out.

In a full on "emergency" stop you aren't worried about down changes until after the immediate threat has passed.

As Code says you lose 100% of your steering while the front wheel is locked.
That'd possibly be a good time to be looking for somewhere to go instead of straight into whatever has just frightened the shit out of you.

Ienatch says of riding in traffic, "We learned to cover the brake lever with our right middle and index fingers at all times reducing the reaction time when confronted with a surprise."

Code advises against using the rear brake in racing. "Everything but the front end is kept stable by the spinning rear wheel." He also says though, "a motorcycle will come to a full stop quicker with both brakes applied." Which latter quote most applies to an emergency stop.

There seems to be a fairly strong consensus among these three authors to the extent that I would be suspicious of anything considerably at variance with that.

[The Stranger]

Ienatch and Pridmore in their respective texts both advise two fingers for the front brake. This facilitates down changes but gives more than enough leverage on most modern bikes. If you are in danger of squashing your fingers, best you sort your bloody bike out.

Having witnessed thousands of emergency braking sessions we see not infrequently that those whom use 2 finger braking fail to drop the throttle prior to applying the brake. This results in unusually long stopping distances.
Invariably, when we point this out to them, all say they wont fail to drop the throttle, yet it still happens. The truely sacrey thing is, they know what's going to happen and when, yet still fail to drop the throttle.
IT'S NOT JUST NOOBS, infact more often than not it is the more experienced riders who make this mistake.
I have yet to see one rider using four finger braking make this mistake.


Code advises against using the rear brake in racing. "Everything but the front end is kept stable by the spinning rear wheel." He also says though, "a motorcycle will come to a full stop quicker with both brakes applied." Which latter quote most applies to an emergency stop.




Again, we see time and again during emergency braking with both brakes that as the rear unloads the rear wheel skids removing one gyroscope and contributing no stopping ability - i.e no reduction in stopping distance.

We often see an increase in stopping distances with both brakes over just the front due probably/possibly to the riders split focus.

I accept that in an ideal situation you would apply the rear a little before the front to suck the arse down a bit then as the weight transfers gradually release the rear to prevent it locking as you progressively apply more front, all in an instant with adrenalin pumping and your world flashing before you.
Theory vs reality. Reality will win out.

[cheshirecat]

Try this link

http://www.visordown.com/articles/view/mackenzies_psychology_of_riding_braking/5846.html/v/3/SP/%22

[Sparrowhawk]

I admit, I locked my rear wheel the other day when a cage pulled across my path. My issue is my front disk is slightly warped - so braking hard with just the front gives a horrible feeling.

Other than a new disk (which maybe the best option), does anyone know of anywhere near dorkland that I could get the disk planed (if this will help)

[AlBundy]

Let me assure you, it lays well below the controlled use of your motorbikes controls, which is all I am advocating.

Where does this fit in then?


On the XT which is a single with significant engine braking I usually just bang it down a gear or 2 and drop the clutch, the rear may lock or chatter, so what?

It certainly isn't controlled, unless you think dropping the clutch and trying to control a sliding bike is controlled? Certainly not advice to give a newbie who, as you say, has so many other things to concentrate on... (PS: Debating from a newb advice perspective, I don't care whether you are gods gift to motarders...)

[Ocean1]

Try this link

http://www.visordown.com/articles/view/mackenzies_psychology_of_riding_braking/5846.html/v/3/SP/%22


A few years ago when I worked for Crescent Suzuki we used to visit the 'Suzuki Village' at the BSB rounds. Within the village was the 'Street Magic' challenge which was a grassy obstacle course where visitors could set a time on the Suzuki Street Magic fun bikes. I'm ashamed we went to watch the hilarious spills, although I have to mention it was all low speed, the victims laughed and no one ever got hurt. The bikers that went down had zero feel when the front locked up so were eating cow-pat the first time they grabbed a handful of front brake.

I remember suggesting at the time that every one of the fallers should spend a day in a field to hone their feel for braking. And I still do, so if you're unsure of your braking skills get yourself in a field with a £100 Honda C50, do a bit of losing the front and have lots of fun. One day it could save your life.


Best advice I've heard on the subject.

Who's got a bit of turf we can set up and play on?

Wonder if someone in the industry can ignore the nit-pickin' liability issues long enough to stump up with a couple of old-but-reliable C90s...

[vifferman]

...my front disk is slightly warped - so braking hard with just the front gives a horrible feeling.

Other than a new disk (which maybe the best option), does anyone know of anywhere near dorkland that I could get the disk planed (if this will help)
Bike disks have too little thickness in them to be skimmed. If your disk is only slightly warped, there is a possibililty it can be straightened - I did this on my VF500, when one of the (secondhand) replacement disks had a bit of a wiggle in it.

[Sparrowhawk]

Bike disks have too little thickness in them to be skimmed. If your disk is only slightly warped, there is a possibililty it can be straightened - I did this on my VF500, when one of the (secondhand) replacement disks had a bit of a wiggle in it.

Thanks vifferman! Where would you go to get it straightened? Would you just go to a bike shop, or is a a specialist fing?

[dipshit]

On the XT which is a single with significant engine braking I usually just bang it down a gear or 2 and drop the clutch, the rear may lock or chatter, so what?

It means you are not riding smoothly and had momentarily lost control. What happens if you are on a wet road and entering a corner? What happens if you need to lose a lot of speed that may require going down 3 or 4 gears in very quick succession..??

Watch this vid and see what happens when you are not smooth with your down changes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO8TuakquPQ

Just about each time the rider makes a down change, the bike momentarily becomes unsettled and provokes small slides. And even right at the end at 5:59 the rider loses control completely just after a down change and goes off the track.

This is just as important when riding on the road.

By blipping the throttle on down changes, everything is much much smoother and controlled. Down changes can be performed as rapidly and as successively as needed... when cornering... and on slippery wet roads without too much problem.

It should be a basic thing a learner gets a feel for early on so it becomes a natural habit. You can easily learn it by practising without even using the brakes for a start just by slowing down with engine braking alone and blipping on the down shifts.

[The Stranger]

It means you are not riding smoothly and had momentarily lost control. What happens if you are on a wet road and entering a corner? What happens if you need to lose a lot of speed that may require going down 3 or 4 gears in very quick succession..??

Watch this vid and see what happens when you are not smooth with your down changes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO8TuakquPQ

Just about each time the rider makes a down change, the bike momentarily becomes unsettled and provokes small slides. And even right at the end at 5:59 the rider loses control completely just after a down change and goes off the track.

This is just as important when riding on the road.

By blipping the throttle on down changes, everything is much much smoother and controlled. Down changes can be performed as rapidly and as successively as needed... when cornering... and on slippery wet roads without too much problem.

It should be a basic thing a learner gets a feel for early on so it becomes a natural habit. You can easily learn it by practising without even using the brakes for a start just by slowing down with engine braking alone and blipping on the down shifts.

Hmm, it seems that my comment "if the mood takes me" was not as obvious as I had hoped it would be. That was intended by me to indicate that it was not my primary MO, indeed it was intended to suggest that I would do that when I am in a particular frame of mind.
The first 2 options I gave were not so qualified.

I must admit, I had assumed noob road riding here. I had noted "I know a lot of people do, including many racers." in acknowledgement of it being an accepted practice.

I stand by what I say - it is unnecessary for general road riding and that it's not at all high on a list of priorities for a learner - particularly if it is taking concentration away from another more important skill, of which there are many significantly more important.

[The Stranger]

Where does this fit in then?



It certainly isn't controlled, unless you think dropping the clutch and trying to control a sliding bike is controlled? Certainly not advice to give a newbie who, as you say, has so many other things to concentrate on... (PS: Debating from a newb advice perspective, I don't care whether you are gods gift to motarders...)

Damn it's early afternoon when you posted this and you are pissed and incoherent already.

[AlBundy]

Damn it's early afternoon when you posted this and you are pissed and incoherent already.

Aaah, the Stranger I remember. Resorting to personal attacks when he runs out of debate material. You should post 'FROTH' again... Since that was what you did last time we had had a debate/argument/discussion and you couldn't come up with anything usefull...

I would have expected you to have a library worth of material available, since you teach people but alas, no, personal attacks it is...

[Sparrowhawk]

Damn it's early afternoon when you posted this and you are pissed and incoherent already.


Aaah, the Stranger I remember. Resorting to personal attacks when he runs out of debate material. You should post 'FROTH' again... Since that was what you did last time we had had a debate/argument/discussion and you couldn't come up with anything usefull...

I would have expected you to have a library worth of material available, since you teach people but alas, no, personal attacks it is...

{{phone rings}} "Welcome to Kiwibiker Kindergaten. .... No ma'am, we let the three-year old boys bitch-fight whenever they want, it gets them ready for the workforce"

Keep it up guys, it's fun to watch!! :shifty:

[The Stranger]

Aaah, the Stranger I remember. Resorting to personal attacks when he runs out of debate material. You should post 'FROTH' again... Since that was what you did last time we had had a 'debate' and you couldn't come up with anything usefull...

Debate?
Learnt what an argument is yet have you?
When you do, perhaps we'll have a debate.

You mean you remember from last night when you went postal in yout rep comment about froth? Let it go, deep breaths.

[The Stranger]

{{phone rings}} "Welcome to Kiwibiker Kindergaten. .... No ma'am, we let the three-year old boys bitch-fight whenever they want, it gets them ready for the workforce"

Keep it up guys, it's fun to watch!! :shifty:

Growing up is way over rated.

[AlBundy]

Debate?
Learnt what an argument is yet have you?
When you do, perhaps we'll have a debate.

You mean you remember from last night when you went postal in yout rep comment about froth? Let it go, deep breaths.

I called you a Fuckwit, who cares?

If you think that's postal, you live in a small world...

[AlBundy]

Growing up is way over rated.

One of the few sensible posts I've EVER seen you post!

[AlBundy]

{{phone rings}} "Welcome to Kiwibiker Kindergaten. .... No ma'am, we let the three-year old boys bitch-fight whenever they want, it gets them ready for the workforce"

Keep it up guys, it's fun to watch!! :shifty:

Sometimes it's just fun to TROLL!!!

[The Stranger]

Sometimes it's just fun to TROLL!!!

Shit yeah.
Red for the win!

Thank you.

[MarkH]

Thanks vifferman! Where would you go to get it straightened? Would you just go to a bike shop, or is a a specialist fing?

I wonder if it wouldn't be better just to replace the disk - since your life kinda depends on the reliable operation of the brakes and all . . . just saying . . .

[Sparrowhawk]

I wonder if it wouldn't be better just to replace the disk - since your life kinda depends on the reliable operation of the brakes and all . . . just saying . . .

Yeah, you're probably right. I spose brakes are one of those things it's worth spending the extra $$ on to get right.

[discotex]

We often see an increase in stopping distances with both brakes over just the front due probably/possibly to the riders split focus.

I accept that in an ideal situation you would apply the rear a little before the front to suck the arse down a bit then as the weight transfers gradually release the rear to prevent it locking as you progressively apply more front, all in an instant with adrenalin pumping and your world flashing before you.
Theory vs reality. Reality will win out.

Precisely... I can stop in a shorter distance in a carpark using both. Why? Because I know I'm about to do an emergency stop and remember not to stomp on the back brake.

Unfortunately in real life situations the adrenaline kicks in and my ability to modulate the rear while getting the most from the front goes out the window.

Of course this is on a sprotsbike where it's more 90/10 front/back under hard brakes. If the front brake is on at all the back is just waiting to lock up be it from rear brake or botched downshift. YMMV on other bikes.

[scracha]

It's amazing the number of "experts" here who've had no formal instructor training.

On a wet or gravelly road you will stop much quicker using both brakes.

Throttle position under emergency braking , don't worry about it too much.

Downshifts under normal braking - blipping can smooth things out but modulating the clutch by letting it out slowly and feeling what the bike is doing is a far more important skill.

Covering the front brake all the time is generally a bad thing, especially for inexperienced riders.

1/2/3 finger braking is generally a bad thing, especially for inexperienced riders.

Rear brake then front? I totally disagree as this causes the arse of the bike to sag and reduces weight over the front tyre. However it's irrelevant as for most riders (inexperienced or otherwise) when they grab the brakes their hand reaches the front lever quicker than the foot presses the back.

Rear brake only for slow speed maneuvers.

Learn to sit up during hard braking.

Look for an escape route.

As soon as you stop after an emergency, look behind. There's a high chance you'll have stalled the bike and/or not be in 1st gear. If a car/truck etc is heading in your direction at speed then get off the bike and RUN LIKE FUCK.

Fucked disk...replace it ASAP.

Everyone is different and has a preference to how they brake but the most important thing is practice, practice, practice.

[AlBundy]

It's amazing the number of "experts" here who've had no formal instructor training..

Whaaaaat?

We're all experts here, didn't you know...:innocent: