Ray Shearman - whaaaaaaaaat?

[RantyDave]

So Motorcycling has a PR problem. For some reason the public thinks we keep killing ourselves. In the midst of this the press ask Ray Shearman, Canterbury co-ordinatior for MNZ, for his opinion...

I've been cut off by bloody car drivers and they're friggin' females (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4804914a11.html)
...and he blames women. Great.

Now I'm sure that Ray does a lot of great work for Motorcycling in general but, seriously, should we find the people who are going to be asked for soundbites and get them some media/PR training because that shit is not helping.

Dave

[Grahameeboy]

So Motorcycling has a PR problem. For some reason the public thinks we keep killing ourselves. In the midst of this the press ask Ray Shearman, Canterbury co-ordinatior for MNZ, for his opinion...

...and he blames women. Great.

Now I'm sure that Ray does a lot of great work for Motorcycling in general but, seriously, should we find the people who are going to be asked for soundbites and get them some media/PR training because that shit is not helping.

Dave

Well in this PC world of ours it is refreshing to hear people saying it how they see it...I don't necessarily agree re females although they tend to be the texting / make up at wheel offenders.

Maybe the Public is right...at least this creates a debate...

[James Deuce]

What's happening here chap, is that ACC are leveraging public opinion to increase our levies to around the $400-$600 mark.

There will have been people trained to give sound bites consulted but their particular sound bites will have been culled in favour of someone who will have no doubt have done great service for motorcycling in Canterbury over the last 50 years but is a little anachronistic in his attitudes (it will happen to you too) to life in general and has produced a sound bite that helps support the argument that motorcyclists are idiots and deserve to have their ACC subsidies removed.

Mr Shearman will be feeling like an idiot after reading that piece of cynically edited propaganda.

I suspect that proportionally (ratio of motorcycle accidents to number of active motorcyclists) motorcycle accidents are not as bad as they were in the '80s. However its a slow news week and the Ministry of Transport can go to town with their anti-motorcycle campaign ( "Gilbert said motorcyclists should not be on the road if they did not have the skill to operate the bikes.").

There's no Government will to upskill riders or to help make training readily available nationwide.

Those of you who think their individual actions only affect themselves are going to have to pick their game up. We need to help each other or motorcycling is going to become the preserve of the comparatively wealthy until it dies a natural death through attrition.

Don't have accidents, don't get pinged doing anything illegal. See if you can do it for a couple of months, so you don't screw up the next couple of decades.

[RantyDave]

What's happening here chap, is that ACC are leveraging public opinion to increase our levies to around the $400-$600 mark.
Oh, hell yes. If I were cynical I'd suggest that our ACC levies were being used to fund a PR campaign to raise our ACC levies. But then I read the bad into every situation, eh?

Mr Shearman will be feeling like an idiot after reading that piece of cynically edited propaganda.
Well ... I hope so. It's a shame the thing about women got in there because he also blamed phoning-while-driving, which *should* be illegal.

There's no Government will to upskill riders or to help make training readily available nationwide.
Well, it'd be really really expensive. The ACC do promote Motorcycle safety (http://www.rideforever.co.nz/) but are ultimately beholden to their spreadsheets.

Those of you who think their individual actions only affect themselves are going to have to pick their game up.
Couldn't agree more. This Akaroa crash was (neither speculation nor insider chit chat, this was in the paper) a biker-hits-biker crash caused by a long pass on a presumably blind sweeper. Entirely avoidable, even more so than usual.

Don't have accidents, don't get pinged doing anything illegal. See if you can do it for a couple of months, so you don't screw up the next couple of decades.
I believe I have a clean license these days. Nil points. None the less I think spending some time with either RRRS or Mr Templeman might be a very good idea.

Dave

[Grahameeboy]

Why do we complain about ACC when it provides a non-fault insurance policy for a few hundred bucks...

Health Insurance would not cover everything like ACC does.

Basically even if the put up levies to say $500 pa, this works out at less than $50 a month...

Do we complain that higher earners should not contribute higher taxes? So why complain that higher users of ACC should not contribute more when after all we live in a non-fault society...tell you want if I got knocked off and was seriously injured I would be glad I paid $500 pa and I would not care that it may not have been my fault because that is not important in the whole scheme of things.

A trip to A & E in the States is US$600 so we should not complain...

Car drivers contribute a lot more to ACC than we do and this benefit's us too.

Perspective

[Ocean1]

...and he blames women. Great.

Wonder if he might have a point, there. Useless for the PR value, I know, and statistically irrelevant, but twice I've had hard contact with cars. Both of them pulled out in front of me, I went over both of them and both of them contained women with kids.


What's happening here chap, is that ACC are leveraging public opinion to increase our levies to around the $400-$600 mark.

How's that work dude? In this particular case, where did ACC get to play editor?

[James Deuce]

Well, it'd be really really expensive. The ACC do promote Motorcycle safety (http://www.rideforever.co.nz/) but are ultimately beholden to their spreadsheets.



You want cynical? That was simply a move to make "us" (not that we're an amorphous blob, hell Harley and BMW riders won't wave to anyone FFS) thnk "they" knew how "we" felt and were trying to help. Now that "we've" relaxed about "them", "they" are going to nail us.

Nothing except exemplary road user behaviour from motorcyclists is going to help change the perception that we're just a bunch of hedonistic dickwads.

Stop filtering, stop lane splitting, stop flipping the bird to people, stop smacking their mirrors off, stop speeding, stop stunting on public roads, stop over taking in places that the average non-motorcyclist can't concieve of as safe, stop riding with your high beams on, get rid of your mirrored visor, stop wearing all black, stop wearing hi-vis vests, stop riding white motorcycles, stop putting ear-splitting after market exhausts on bikes, stop riding in giant groups that look like a gang outing. Don't bag other motorcyclists to non-motorcyclists.

Do use your bike to commute, shop, travel, and for pleasure.

From a cultural perspective we're alien. Non-motorcyclists only go on drives in separate cars together in a funeral cortege.

Just a couple of months. Ride like Policeman for two months. The death and injury toll will plummet well below the vehicle average of 1.4 fatalities per day.

Bear in mind that the holiday stats are total rubbish, and always have been. They are close to the national yearly average of 1.4 fatalities per day and seldom exceed that unless some clueless muppet crashes a minivan.

[Oakie]

A very relevant point is made near the start of the story :

The growth in motorcycle accidents was directly related to the number of new motorbike registrations, with about 16,000 more motorbikes registered in 2007.

If you have more vehicles of a particular type on the road then you are naturally going to have more accidents involving that type of vehicle. It's basic maths!

Unfortunately, the focus will be on the apparent increase in 'motorcycle carnage' without regard to the basic maths behind it. Speaking of maths ... to make this story a little more useful it would be good to know stuff like:
> the number of scooter and farm bike accidents that make up the total accident figures
> the ratio of motorcycle accidents caused by other road users
> the experience levels of those riders involved in accidents.

[James Deuce]

Wonder if he might have a point, there. Useless for the PR value, I know, and statistically irrelevant, but twice I've had hard contact with cars. Both of them pulled out in front of me, I went over both of them and both of them contained women with kids.



How's that work dude? In this particular case, where did ACC get to play editor?
As has been pointed out by Paul in NZ earlier, all government agencies including MoT, ACC, and the Hydra that is the amalgamated LTNZ/Transit beast are looking very closely at how to make motorcycling "safer". ACC have been threatening to raise motorcycle levies and have promised a raise very soon in the New Year already. Those agencies do talk to each other and will use each other to justify changes in policy and pricing. They, unlike motorcyclists, don't work in a vacuum.

[James Deuce]

A very relevant point is made near the start of the story :

The growth in motorcycle accidents was directly related to the number of new motorbike registrations, with about 16,000 more motorbikes registered in 2007.

If you have more vehicles of a particular type on the road then you are naturally going to have more accidents involving that type of vehicle. It's basic maths!

Unfortunately, the focus will be on the apparent increase in 'motorcycle carnage' without regard to the basic maths behind it. Speaking of maths ... to make this story a little more useful it would be good to know stuff like:
> the number of scooter and farm bike accidents that make up the total accident figures
> the ratio of motorcycle accidents caused by other road users
> the experience levels of those riders involved in accidents.

They anecdotally brush over the accidents involving "older" riders. The socio-economic side of motorcycling has been ignored entirely. Motorcycling isn't a cheap hobby, pastime, or form of transport any more. It is a very fair point they make in regard to the age of riders, many of them are people who have held a motorcycle license contiguously since they were licensed, but haven't owned a bike and ridden on the road for a long time. That should be easy to check.

Most BABs I know aren't crashers, so I wonder where that piece of mythology comes from?

[James Deuce]

Now in keeping with the scientific nature of this investigation of how dangerous motorcyling is, there is now a poll on Stuff (http://www.stuff.co.nz/) asking whether motorcyclists take more risks than other road users.

You see where this is going folks, right?

This isn't an argument we can "win". The average road user's perception of what constitues a risk is vastly different from ours because they are completely unaware of how a motorcyle works. Except from that time when they crashed Uncle Ben's C90 into a tree because they panicked and forgot to let go of the throttle.

[Goblin]

Wonder if he might have a point, there. Useless for the PR value, I know, and statistically irrelevant, but twice I've had hard contact with cars. Both of them pulled out in front of me, I went over both of them and both of them contained women with kids.On the flip side...both times I've had contact with cars on the road, it's been men. Dude opened his car door on me the first time. Second time, an old fart who'd never had a ticket or an accident in 50 years driving, pulled out of the long line of traffic and hit me head on. Ive had men try to run me off the road then flip me the bird! The only time women have pulled out or not seen me theyve been very sorry and apologetic. The men, however, have all been agressive and nasty about it.

[Tank]

Now in keeping with the scientific nature of this investigation of how dangerous motorcyling is, there is now a poll on Stuff (http://www.stuff.co.nz/) asking whether motorcyclists take more risks than other road users.


so far sitting at 80% yes.

What do they mean by taking more risk?

Is that risky maneuvers of our own making, or taking risk, simply by being on the road with cell phone texting, 45 yo menopausal drivers in 4x4's?

[James Deuce]

so far sitting at 80% yes.

What do they mean by taking more risk?

Is that risky maneuvers of our own making, or taking risk, simply by being on the road with cell phone texting, 45 yo menopausal drivers in 4x4's?

It's a Stuff poll. They're asking an open ended question of people ignorant of the risk factors in motorcycling.

You figure it out.

[Ocean1]

Now in keeping with the scientific nature of this investigation of how dangerous motorcyling is, there is now a poll on Stuff (http://www.stuff.co.nz/) asking whether motorcyclists take more risks than other road users.

Which we're all about to hammer with millions of negative responses, right?

Check.


Except from that time when they crashed Uncle Ben's C90 into a tree because they panicked and forgot to let go of the throttle.

I did NOT forget to let go the throttle. :angry2:

I was bashing that berm perfectly, the fookin' tree leapt out and mugged me.

[James Deuce]

On the flip side...both times I've had contact with cars on the road, it's been men. Dude opened his car door on me the first time. Second time, an old fart who'd never had a ticket or an accident in 50 years driving, pulled out of the long line of traffic and hit me head on. Ive had men try to run me off the road then flip me the bird! The only time women have pulled out or not seen me theyve been very sorry and apologetic. The men, however, have all been agressive and nasty about it.


Conversely, when an screw up of mine has ended up in court, the men have either grudgingly or impassively accepted the outcome, while the women have continued to deny ever being at the accident scene.

Stereotypes aren't what they used to be.

[Ocean1]

On the flip side...both times I've had contact with cars on the road, it's been men.

So there were no women involved in these alleged incidences, then?

:chase:

[Headbanger]

I voted "YES" on the poll.

Plenty of idiots on bikes, Nearly ran over a few who happened to be on my side of the road on a blind corner yesterday. Unfucking believable.

And for balance, I suck as well.

[The Stranger]

Oh, hell yes. If I were cynical I'd suggest that our ACC levies were being used to fund a PR campaign to raise our ACC levies. But then I read the bad into every situation, eh?


ACC have a stated position of taxing motorcycles off the road. It's been that way for quite some time. Why do you think we are the only mode of transport with our own category. Nothing new there.

[Big Dave]

MNZ is a racing body isn't it?

Last time I went there were 6 people at the BRONZ meeting - where two people pretty much do all the work - (apart from the RRRS crew - respec.)

We have three options.

1 - Lots of us join and support - work for - BRONZ (or whatever) and actively fund professional activism.
2 - Bleat about the state of affairs on the internet which essentially leads to:
3 - Bend over and spread 'em.

[Goblin]

So there were no women involved in these alleged incidences, then?

:chase:<_<


Conversely, when an screw up of mine has ended up in court, the men have either grudgingly or impassively accepted the outcome, while the women have continued to deny ever being at the accident scene.

Stereotypes aren't what they used to be.True the sterotypes!
My door incident was both our faults, me for filtering and him for not checking his mirrors before opening his door. No cops involved.
Head on dude plead not guilty to Careless use causing injury. Found guilty thanks to the witnesses. Took him to Disputes tribunal to try and recover cost of helmet and repairs to leathers and he told me I was speeding and shouldn't have been on the road!:shit: Unfuckingbelievable!

[oldrider]

I heard this guy on the radio this morning, frankly, with friends like this guy, who needs enemies!

He is not a good advertisement for older riders either and he shouldn't be judging young riders just because he himself is out of date!

IMHO overall, his interview was a disaster for motorcycling, put him out grass.

Silly old cunt. :spanking: John.

[James Deuce]

MNZ is a racing body isn't it?



Last time I went there were 6 people at the BRONZ meeting - where two people pretty much do all the work - (apart from the RRRS crew - respec.)



We have three options.



1 - Lots of us join and support - work for - BRONZ (or whatever) and actively fund professional activism.

2 - Bleat about the state of affairs on the internet which essentially leads to:

3 - Bend over and spread 'em.
Tell me about it.

How do you get a committed body of people engaged and working hard in the face of an overt threat? It's quite difficult to convince the avergae Kiwi that they need to act rather than moan.

The average Kiwi motorcyclist seems to loathe the very idea that there are a bunch of road regs, let alone having to engage with the "authorities" to constructively debate a point or two.

[AD345]

MNZ is a racing body isn't it?

Last time I went there were 6 people at the BRONZ meeting - where two people pretty much do all the work - (apart from the RRRS crew - respec.)

We have three options.

1 - Lots of us join and support - work for - BRONZ (or whatever) and actively fund professional activism.
2 - Bleat about the state of affairs on the internet which essentially leads to:
3 - Bend over and spread 'em.

Does BRONZ just have a fund into which anyone (member or nay) can just put some dosh?

For myself, after several decades of "activism" for this cause or that I'm no longer interested in joining groups of this nature.

It kinda sucks the joy out of life y'know?

[Sparrowhawk]

I put my vote in for "no", but like has been mentioned, the real risk is being on the same piece of asphalt with jafa's in SUV's - and commodores. Strangely, over half of the 'near misses' I've had involve those horrible holden sedan's. They all seem to think they're mark skaife, and drive like him too. :angry2:

Having said that, I've had a few near misses at round-about's too, where cagers just refuse to indicate when they plan to turn right.

As far as us taking more risks, we're all guilty (eg drivers & bikers) of making the odd bad judgement call. Hands up if you've made a passing manouver that's ended with you thinking "shit that was close, maybe I should have waited". It's happened to me a few times - but always in a cage (before I got my class 6). Now that I'm on two wheels, I'm MORE careful weather I'm in the cage or on the bike.

[Big Dave]

Does BRONZ just have a fund into which anyone (member or nay) can just put some dosh?


Good point. We'll set it up.

A published plan and a 'donate' button on the web site would be a good start.

[James Deuce]

I made two bone headed passes yesterday and thought about the likely "public image" (bring the noise) repurcussions ahead of the obvious consequences to myself if I hadn't been able to moderate the risk I'd put myself in.

How many of these accidents are utterly needless because people do the target fixated death stare?

Should we as a body devise testing and training regime that targets new and returning riders and asks for a 5 yearly re-test for all motorcyclists? Submit it to Government to show that we do get it and we want to fix it?

Because how it works at the moment isn't.

[riffer]

Mate, I think we all do boneheaded stuff (some of us regularly).

I think your idea has merit. We don't have a BRONZ in Welly do we?

[AD345]

Good point. We'll set it up.

A published plan and a 'donate' button on the web site would be a good start.

Excellent

:rockon:

[Mully]

A few good comments being posted on the Stuff story:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4804914a11.html

[Slyer]

Hey at least drunk riding isn't an issue, they usually don't last long.
We also cause less damage to other road users/pedestrians/property.

[Ocean1]

Good point. We'll set it up.

A published plan and a 'donate' button on the web site would be a good start.

Excellent idea.


Should we as a body devise testing and training regime that targets new and returning riders and asks for a 5 yearly re-test for all motorcyclists? Submit it to Government to show that we do get it and we want to fix it?

Yes.

Who wears the "body"


I think your idea has merit. We don't have a BRONZ in Welly do we?

See above.

Mebe it's time eh?

[James Deuce]

Hey at least drunk riding isn't an issue, they usually don't last long.
We also cause less damage to other road users/pedestrians/property.

Weigh that up against those with spinal injuries who need 24x7 intense care from over worked spouses as a result of not damaging the scenery as much. Pretty poor trade off.

[Swoop]

It's a Stuff poll.
Another "public survey" that will be brought up by the weenies in Wellington's circular windtunnel...
Stuff polls are not scientific and reflect the opinions of only those internet users who have chosen to participate
But that will not stand in the way of "progress".

Trying to organise bikers is just like trying to pitchfork ball-bearings.

[Gubb]

I'll do my best to be at the next BRONZ meeting. I would like to see what it's all about.

[The Stranger]

I think your idea has merit. We don't have a BRONZ in Welly do we?

Correct, as Jim mentioned "How do you get a committed body of people engaged and working hard in the face of an overt threat? It's quite difficult to convince the average Kiwi that they need to act rather than moan."

[smoky]

Nothing except exemplary road user behavior from motorcyclists is going to help change the perception that we're just a bunch of hedonistic dickwads.

I don’t reckon it’ll make any difference, Considering the majority of us do ride safely and considerate of other vehicles; it will take years to change the image of bikers, TV, movies and the populous portrayal of the ‘James Dean rebel’ on a bike will endure and impact peoples impression of us regardless of how we behave.



Stop filtering, stop lane splitting, stop flipping the bird to people, stop smacking their mirrors off, stop speeding, stop stunting on public roads, stop over taking in places that the average non-motorcyclist can't concieve of as safe, stop riding with your high beams on, get rid of your mirrored visor, stop wearing all black, stop wearing hi-vis vests, stop riding white motorcycles, stop putting ear-splitting after market exhausts on bikes, stop riding in giant groups that look like a gang outing. Don't bag other motorcyclists to non-motorcyclists.

Ok I can understand about smacking their mirrors off, stunting on public roads, and maybe the after market cans, but the rest is subjective; no matter how safe we consider our overtaking to be there’ll be someone who will think it was unsafe.
But what’s the problem with filtering & lane splitting as long as it’s done legally, but what’s wrong with mirrored visors?
And why on earth have you included white motorcycles & hi-vis vests, what’s that about?
As for riding in groups – that’s much safer than riding by your self (depending on the group I guess).




Just a couple of months. Ride like Policeman for two months. The death and injury toll will plummet
Hmmmm- I’ve seen a few of them fall over; their injury rate isn’t much better than normal bike riders.

[smoky]

Who on earth elected the Canterbury regional co-ordinator of Motorcycling New Zealand, Ray Shearman? He's a plonker. Who gave him a mandate to speak for motorcyclists? He missed the obvious points;
They say the number of injuries to motor cyclists has doubled but then they only quote the cost, which has doubled - not the actual number of injuries, and I would suggest since 2000 (8years) the cost would've of increased by at lest 50% inline with other health services, then add on inflation and we might have a real figure to work from?
Now add on the increase of 16,000 new motorcycles registered, and we probably had a net drop in number of injured motorcyclists per motorcycles on the road?
Then take out the number of injuries from unregistered motorcyclist - farm bikes and quad-bikes, trail bike accidents and the like - and what would the figure be then?
Then as mentioned by others - how many of those accidents were as a result of poor riding rather than caused by the other motorist?
It's a shabby bit of journalism and an even poorer response from a plonker presumed to speak on behalf of motorcyclist.
John Hartevelt should stop being lazy and do the research instead of looking for headlines - give us the real picture.
Get your act together Ray Shearman - if you want to speak for motorcyclist then at lest be informed and make some valid points on our behalf – instead of stupid comment about women drivers, and bikes being ‘cheap transport’ – how many bikes are actually cheaper to run than a small car now days when you add up the real cost of running?
(Actually my Bandit uses more fuel per klm than my Toyota, and then the amount of tyres I go thru… it’s not cheap)

[James Deuce]

I don’t reckon it’ll make any difference, Considering the majority of us do ride safely and considerate of other vehicles; it will take years to change the image of bikers, TV, movies and the populous portrayal of the ‘James Dean rebel’ on a bike will endure and impact peoples impression of us regardless of how we behave.




Ok I can understand about smacking their mirrors off, stunting on public roads, and maybe the after market cans, but the rest is subjective; no matter how safe we consider our overtaking to be there’ll be someone who will think it was unsafe.
But what’s the problem with filtering & lane splitting as long as it’s done legally, but what’s wrong with mirrored visors?
And why on earth have you included white motorcycles & hi-vis vests, what’s that about?
As for riding in groups – that’s much safer than riding by your self (depending on the group I guess).



Hmmmm- I’ve seen a few of them fall over; their injury rate isn’t much better than normal bike riders.

Riding in Groups is THE most dangerous thing you can do as a motorcyclist. Plenty of International statistics to back that one up.

Most motorcyclists DON'T ride safely, most motorcyclists DON'T split safely or legally.

However that's NOT what I'm talking about, and your comments highlight what I'm talking about.

Motorcyclists are completely unwilling to accept that they are less than perfect. What I'm asking you to do is very easy and requires something that most motorcyclists appear to lack. Self discipline. It will help. We'll disappear from the radar. That's all we need right now.

What do you base your comments on about Motorcycle cops? I know of two accidents in the last 12 months and one of them would have been fatal for the average motorcyclist.

[James Deuce]

Who on earth elected the Canterbury regional co-ordinator of Motorcycling New Zealand, Ray Shearman? He's a plonker. Who gave him a mandate to speak for motorcyclists? He missed the obvious points;
They say the number of injuries to motor cyclists has doubled but then they only quote the cost, which has doubled - not the actual number of injuries, and I would suggest since 2000 (8years) the cost would've of increased by at lest 50% inline with other health services, then add on inflation and we might have a real figure to work from?
Now add on the increase of 16,000 new motorcycles registered, and we probably had a net drop in number of injured motorcyclists per motorcycles on the road?
Then take out the number of injuries from unregistered motorcyclist - farm bikes and quad-bikes, trail bike accidents and the like - and what would the figure be then?
Then as mentioned by others - how many of those accidents were as a result of poor riding rather than caused by the other motorist?
It's a shabby bit of journalism and an even poorer response from a plonker presumed to speak on behalf of motorcyclist.
John Hartevelt should stop being lazy and do the research instead of looking for headlines - give us the real picture.
Get your act together Ray Shearman - if you want to speak for motorcyclist then at lest be informed and make some valid points on our behalf – instead of stupid comment about women drivers, and bikes being ‘cheap transport’ – how many bikes are actually cheaper to run than a small car now days when you add up the real cost of running?
(Actually my Bandit uses more fuel per klm than my Toyota, and then the amount of tyres I go thru… it’s not cheap)


There's no point ranting about the administrator of a regional arm of the National Racing body. Someone plucked a name with "motorcycle" in it out of the phone book and asked an old man to make a comment for all NZ motorcyclists.

The fuel thing is an important point. We've lost the one thing we could point at and say we are a valid alternative to cars because we use less fuel, mainly because motorcyclists want performance or tradition above all else.

[smoky]

Riding in Groups is THE most dangerous thing you can do as a motorcyclist. Plenty of International statistics to back that one up.
I don't agree, but I don't have any statistics on it - I don't think you do either - feel free to prove me wrong with all those "International statistics"
It seems to me that you are way more visible than when you’re by yourself.


motorcyclists DON'T ride safely, most motorcyclists DON'T split safely or legally.
I don't agree at all - I would say the vast majority of people I ride with are safe riders 90% of the time - we all get it wrong now and then - but I think car drivers actually make more mistakes on the road than the average bike rider! But again no statistic, just my experience. But where do you get off being our moral judge and declaring us all unsafe on the road!!!




What I'm asking you to do is very easy and requires something that most motorcyclists appear to lack. Self discipline.

You seem to lump us all in with the few - You're sounding very arrogant - I bet you ride a Honda
It's only your perception of things - You're entitled to your opinion; but that's all it is - your opinion.
Yes there are some terrible bike riders around, and yes there are some good riders who exercise a bit of poor judgement on occasions – but I hardly think we’re all ill disciplined bad riders doing illegal shit on the road, and I think if you took a snap shot of all motorists on the road it wouldn’t be any different.


what do you base your comments on about Motorcycle cops? I know of two accidents in the last 12 months and one of them would have been fatal for the average motorcyclist.

So cops are more than average bike riders and have skills we don't?
I know 4 cops on bikes, ride with one of them regularly.
My brother in law was a bike cop for a number of years
Yes they get some extra bike riding training - it could be argued that all motorcyclists get the same training. But I can assure you they still come off, they still injure them selves at about the same ratio as normal motorcyclist – in fact I saw a report back n the mid 80's suggesting they scrap motorcycle cops due to the risk of injury being to high.
I remember laughing at part of the report showing how many cops injured them selves while stationary, getting on and off the bikes, and the lost days due to minor injuries.

[smoky]

There's no point ranting about the administrator of a regional arm of the National Racing body. Someone plucked a name with "motorcycle" in it out of the phone book and asked an old man to make a comment for all NZ motorcyclists.


The ol’ man should've said he was not qualified to speak on behalf of all motorcyclists - and kept his opinion to himself, unless he had something intelligent to say

[dipshit]

Don't have accidents, don't get pinged doing anything illegal. See if you can do it for a couple of months, so you don't screw up the next couple of decades.

Yeah, but with dicks like that Ray Shearman and BRONZ trying to shift all the blame to car drivers and trying to make it sound like motorcyclist's shit doesn't stink - how likely is that to happen..?

Because most motorcyclists swallow that PR bullshit as well.

[Big Dave]

BRONZ trying to shift all the blame to car drivers


That is contemptible dribble.
The Policy statements are online.

[James Deuce]

I don't agree, but I don't have any statistics on it - I don't think you do either - feel free to prove me wrong with all those "International statistics"
It seems to me that you are way more visible than when you’re by yourself.


I don't agree at all - I would say the vast majority of people I ride with are safe riders 90% of the time - we all get it wrong now and then - but I think car drivers actually make more mistakes on the road than the average bike rider! But again no statistic, just my experience. But where do you get off being our moral judge and declaring us all unsafe on the road!!!



You seem to lump us all in with the few - You're sounding very arrogant - I bet you ride a Honda
It's only your perception of things - You're entitled to your opinion; but that's all it is - your opinion.
Yes there are some terrible bike riders around, and yes there are some good riders who exercise a bit of poor judgement on occasions – but I hardly think we’re all ill disciplined bad riders doing illegal shit on the road, and I think if you took a snap shot of all motorists on the road it wouldn’t be any different.



So cops are more than average bike riders and have skills we don't?
I know 4 cops on bikes, ride with one of them regularly.
My brother in law was a bike cop for a number of years
Yes they get some extra bike riding training - it could be argued that all motorcyclists get the same training. But I can assure you they still come off, they still injure them selves at about the same ratio as normal motorcyclist – in fact I saw a report back n the mid 80's suggesting they scrap motorcycle cops due to the risk of injury being to high.
I remember laughing at part of the report showing how many cops injured them selves while stationary, getting on and off the bikes, and the lost days due to minor injuries.

I'll provide the stats alright.

Try not to toss words around like "arrogant".

I can tell you for a fact that most motorcyclists don't lanesplit legally. Most, including myself, pass to the left of vehicles due to the traffic's propensity to stick to the right of their lane. I do think most motorcyclists are ill-disciplined. I think this summer in particular is proving a point. Just because you can go like stink doesn't mean you have to.

You're referring to ancient history in regard to your perception of motorcycle cop accidents. The technology alone has changed massively from BMWR65s and R80s, or CB650s.

[xwhatsit]

The fuel thing is an important point. We've lost the one thing we could point at and say we are a valid alternative to cars because we use less fuel, mainly because motorcyclists want performance or tradition above all else.
Speak for yourself -- I'm just guessing here on a graph I vaguely recall from a year ago, but I'd be willing to bet `most' motorcyclists out and about on roads every day are commuters on GN250s and GPX250s.

That's kind of what makes me a bit shitty about all of this, the fact that we're all lumped in together, along with the 35-50yr-old GSXR squids losing limbs and breaking collarbones.

Of course I'm a perfect rider :pinch:

[Big Dave]

There's no point ranting about the administrator of a regional arm of the National Racing body. Someone plucked a name with "motorcycle" in it out of the phone book and asked an old man to make a comment for all NZ motorcyclists.

The fuel thing is an important point. We've lost the one thing we could point at and say we are a valid alternative to cars because we use less fuel, mainly because motorcyclists want performance or tradition above all else.

Yep - A professional spokesperson with media training, presenting a rational and informed view would be good.

Particularly if he/she was presenting an agreed on and published position.

[oldrider]

The fuel thing is an important point. We've lost the one thing we could point at and say we are a valid alternative to cars because we use less fuel, mainly because motorcyclists want performance or tradition above all else.

I think the point made by BRONZ in Kiwi Rider magazine recently about the reduction in "congestion" was very valid.

It is not so cheap to run my bike but my bike definately takes up a lot less space than my truck or car!

More bikes, less congestion :ride: but of course shit would still happen, so the critics would simply focus on the negatives of that..

I think negative "official attitudes" and the resulting "perceived attitudes of the public" are the most detrimental thing for motorcyclists!

Ray Shearman only added fuel to their fire with "his" invalid negative comments, IMHO!

Add to that, the negative image some motorcyclists project and we are on a hiding to nothing in the public opion stakes! :doh:

Some of these public "zealots" think they do God's own work by trying to eliminate us! :wacko: Bastards! John.

[Big Dave]

To me what BRONZ is about is safety and trying to get a fair deal for motorcyclists.

A voice at the decision table that speaks for a significant number of NZers in matters like the WRB eg.

[dipshit]

That is contemptible dribble.
The Policy statements are online.

Don't see much in here about anything...

http://www.bronz.org.nz/policy.html

And what they tell the media is something else altogether. Motorcyclists are still members of the public, so whatever public perception BRONZ tries to create, motorcyclists also end up buying it.

[Ocean1]

You're referring to ancient history in regard to your perception of motorcycle cop accidents. The technology alone has changed massively from BMWR65s and R80s, or CB650s.

Possibly not as much as it has from HQ Holdens to... fookin' near any 4 wheeler made this century. Pointless comparison anyway, unless you're looking at professional riders who ARE "properly trained" and those who ain't. The straight hrs on the road infer a level of experience few other rider groups would match, and that's gold, right there.


That's kind of what makes me a bit shitty about all of this, the fact that we're all lumped in together, along with the 35-50yr-old GSXR squids losing limbs and breaking collarbones.

If you want unadulterated risk stat's talk to an insurance company, they live and die by 'em. As it happens the premiums for those old squids are typically somewhat lower than those for young commuters.

And yeah, I ain't happy about being lumped into the "imperfect" pile either. :hug:

[Mikkel]

Nothing except exemplary road user behaviour from motorcyclists is going to help change the perception that we're just a bunch of hedonistic dickwads.

What do I do if I am a hedonistic dickwad and despite that value my integrity? :scratch:


so far sitting at 80% yes.

What do they mean by taking more risk?

Is that risky maneuvers of our own making, or taking risk, simply by being on the road with cell phone texting, 45 yo menopausal drivers in 4x4's?

It doesn't matter - it's a poll. Even worse, it's an online poll. Nothing more pointless in this existence than online polls - with the possible exception of online petitions.

I wouldn't worry too much. Nothing is likely to change - except ACC levies going up, but we all know that they would always ever increase whether we all behaved like saints or not.


Trying to organise bikers is just like trying to pitchfork ball-bearings.

...or herding cats. You deserve bling for that analogy, but I've got to spread some around...


To me what BRONZ is about is safety and trying to get a fair deal for motorcyclists.

That may be, I've read a couple of the BRONZ articles in KiwiRider and I must say I wrote BRONZ off as being some sort of grumpy dinosaur with a chip on its shoulder. I can only hope I am mistaken in that regard since that would be the last thing we'd want to represent us in this day an age.

[jafar]

:laugh:
Should we as a body devise testing and training regime that targets new and returning riders and asks for a 5 yearly re-test for all motorcyclists? Submit it to Government to show that we do get it and we want to fix it?

Because how it works at the moment isn't.

Your a SPY for the ACC arn't you !! :shit:
Giving the gibberment more ammunition to take away our freedom's is NOT the answer. Now if you were asking for 5 yearly retesting of everyone then we would be getting somewhere.:doh:


Trying to organise bikers is just like trying to pitchfork ball-bearings.

True that, just look @ the total lack of progress we have made with the "Cheese cutter protests ":Punk:


Some of these public "zealots" think they do God's own work by trying to eliminate us! :wacko: Bastards! John.


Yep & some of them work for the gibberment

[AD345]

Bloody rain

Purely out of boredom I've scrounged up some actual data on motorcycle crashes and numbers of us out there on the road.

The dates don't completely correlate but it doesn't appear that thing are getting any less safe. It would appear that 2008 is going to be a bit of an anomaly but there is some highly selective reporting of statistics going on by all parties

Have a look and make your OWN mind up:

Here (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/motorycycle-casualty-2003.pdf)

and here (http://www.safeas.govt.nz/smf/index.php?topic=348.0;wap2)

[xwhatsit]

If you want unadulterated risk stat's talk to an insurance company, they live and die by 'em. As it happens the premiums for those old squids are typically somewhat lower than those for young commuters.
Yeah -- risk stats for GT250Rs and CBR250RRs falling off the sidestand and needing a $2000 set of fairings, or noobs washing the front wheel out trying to stop while going round a roundabout at 20kph in the wet, snapping the gear lever off. Well, it would be the gear lever if they were riding Brit bikes or we all drove on the right.

Quite a different type of risk than what ACC deals with.

[Big Dave]

That may be, I've read a couple of the BRONZ articles in KiwiRider and I must say I wrote BRONZ off as being some sort of grumpy dinosaur with a chip on its shoulder. I can only hope I am mistaken in that regard since that would be the last thing we'd want to represent us in this day an age.

I see blokes and blokettes standing out in the middle of an airstrip in all conditions giving up their sundays to help people ride safer.

I see volunteers giving up their evenings to prepare submissions to ACC.

I see the same bunch of sincere and well intentioned folks turn up at the meetings and do what they can to try and make the vehicles and their governance safer and fairer.

And quite a lot of others grizzling about it (don't mean you Mikkel) . Bring back Lou!

[smoky]

I'll provide the stats alright.
Waiting..........!


not to toss words around like "arrogant".
try not to class every motorcyclist as ill-disciplined, what makes you such an expert on how the majority of us ride, feel free to comment on you and your riding mates, feel free to criticise those who ride like you describe, but it is arrogance to then presume you know that 'most motorcyclists' ride like that.


You're referring to ancient history in regard to your perception of motorcycle cop accidents. The technology alone has changed massively from BMWR65s and R80s, or CB650s.

So have our bikes improved - so what's your point?
Fact is we don't have facts
You're entitled to your opinion - but it's just your opinion; you think cops can ride better than normal motorcyclists! I don't agree, I also don't see how it matters in this thread.

You also think most motorcyclists are ill disciplined and ride illegally - that's your opinion, and I disagree.
I think the vast majority of motorcyclists are actually well behaved.

[The Stranger]

That may be, I've read a couple of the BRONZ articles in KiwiRider and I must say I wrote BRONZ off as being some sort of grumpy dinosaur with a chip on its shoulder. I can only hope I am mistaken in that regard since that would be the last thing we'd want to represent us in this day an age.

I can only hope you will get off your arse and ensure BRONZ presents itself to your high standards.

[Kickaha]

MNZ is a racing body isn't it?

Yes it is and Ray is a senior steward


Silly old cunt. :spanking: John.

That "silly old cunt" does a shitload for Competition motorcyclist and has for deacdes,there'd be very few people racing in the south island who haven't ever dealt with him, he can be a hard man to deal with but always fair

personally I think you're a silly old cunt yourself for slaggin him off :finger:


The ol’ man should've said he was not qualified to speak on behalf of all motorcyclists - and kept his opinion to himself, unless he had something intelligent to say

Did he say he was speaking on behalf of all motorcyclists? can't see that stated anywhere in that article, perhaps you can point it out to me?

like anyone else he's allowed an opinion whether you agree with it or not

His statement about females on Stuff was simply stating his own experiences, no where else in that article did he place the blame for any other accidents on females



You also think most motorcyclists are ill disciplined and ride illegally - that's your opinion, and I disagree.
I think the vast majority of motorcyclists are actually well behaved.

My opinion is contrary to yours, I think they're the most ignorant, aggorant pack of road users out there

[smoky]

Did he say he was speaking on behalf of all motorcyclists? can't see that stated anywhere in that article, perhaps you can point it out to me?

like anyone else he's allowed an opinion whether you agree with it or not


He didn’t – but when a journalist rings you for an opinion as the Canterbury regional co-ordinator of Motorcycling New Zealand, you should know that your personal opinion will be reported as such, and answer appropriately.



opinion is contrary to yours, I think they're the most ignorant, aggorant pack of road users out there

How come you guys have such a poor impression of your selves???
You should change who you’re riding with

[oldrider]

Yes it is and Ray is a senior steward



That "silly old cunt" does a shitload for Competition motorcyclist and has for deacdes,there'd be very few people racing in the south island who haven't ever dealt with him, he can be a hard man to deal with but always fair

Don't know him from a bar of soap, only know that he came on the radio and gave his impressions/opinions (willingly) for all to hear and "I" did not like what I heard him say!

personally I think you're a silly old cunt yourself for slaggin him off :finger: Fair enough



Did he say he was speaking on behalf of all motorcyclists? can't see that stated anywhere in that article, perhaps you can point it out to me?

Got that impression on the radio but that may have been the interviewer

like anyone else he's allowed an opinion whether you agree with it or not

Then he should be ready to take the consequences when he expresses them in public!

His statement about females on Stuff was simply stating his own experiences, no where else in that article did he place the blame for any other accidents on females

Made this one pretty clear on the radio too!

My opinion is contrary to yours, I think they're the most ignorant, aggorant pack of road users out there

I refer you to my second post on this thread, there are too many people slagging off motorcyclists and I believe he contributed to their agenda.

I consulted my lawyer over "you" calling me a silly old cunt (above) but alas he agreed with you!

There will be no case to answer, so relax, enjoy your break! :laugh: Cheers John.

[Big Dave]

I don't think he's silly or old.

[candor]

Interesting thread. It doesn't take money or great professional PR advice. I'd say just appoint a spokesperson or 2 you all trust, get a 10 commandments of soundbytes (say for 5 year repetitive use) that congeal into a "nice biker brand" for any foreseeable situation, documented for quick reference.... and get yourselves in the transport or crime journos little black books. Assert - phone them (well prepped) and offer input if a hot story occurs you need representation or comment on. They can only say No, but often won't if under pressure to meet deadline with an interesting piece.

Who they gonna call - instead of casting round. Ensure it's obvious. KB for contacts! The site is pretty famous as of l8 likely giving it media cred - and where else is such a cross section found? Look how Sensible Sentencing and LTNZ have some very familiar stock phrases... I can't think instantly of much like that reflecting biker rights, responsibility or safety.

The thing to fear most is the 10 year road safety plan (dictatorship) about to be announced in the New Year. It would be good for all interest groups to be well prepared to fight back, with strong swift and devastating strikes. IMO it's a matter of wearying them down, instead of letting them do it to ya'

[Kickaha]

I don't think he's silly or old.

depends what you call old I guess, but from my dealings with him certainly not silly
http://www.indianmotorbikes.com/features/swannie/raypplus.htm

[Big Dave]

depends what you call old I guess, but from my dealings with him certainly not silly
http://www.indianmotorbikes.com/features/swannie/raypplus.htm

Keep up will ya - I was talking about John! (Sometimes it's in what you don't say)

Mr Shearman I suspect was ambushed. It sells clicks.

[k14]

Yeah Ray is a good old bastard, puts in hours and hours just for the love of the sport. He isn't however a media relations person. He calls a spade a spade and in this pc world that is a no no. Whoever called him should be shot. Typical journalists...

[Usarka]

I don't agree at all - I would say the vast majority of people I ride with are safe riders 90% of the time - we all get it wrong now and then - but I think car drivers actually make more mistakes on the road than the average bike rider! But again no statistic, just my experience. But where do you get off being our moral judge and declaring us all unsafe on the road!!!



People who really do break fewer road rules per hour riding a bike than they do a car aren't usually aren't the personality types that argue on internet forums:lol:

The issues isn't how safe or unsafe we are, it is how safe we are perceived to be in comparison to other road users.


IIMO it's a matter of wearying them down, instead of letting them do it to ya'

Illegitimi non carborundum.

[Big Dave]

Illegitimi non carborundum.

That's rather abrasive.

[Paul in NZ]

Look - this is all good, we are talking about it at least.

I put up some recent data in a thread a while back and mentioned I had coffee with these folks. They seemed genuine in their concerns and I think would respond to proactive action.

Does anyone have some sensible suggestions on how to reduce motorcycle accidents and injury rates? Please note I don't care a fig for blame here but rather I'm interested in laws or schemes that could work.

What about a graduated license scheme for those returning to riding?

What about power to weight ratio's?

What about a special license for bikes over 120bhp based on extra training?

What about an acc / insurance rebate for non accident periods?

[Slyer]

Education is the best.
I think they're doing a pretty good job with Ride Forever but they should incorporate a lot of this stuff into the testing itself.
http://www.rideforever.co.nz/

Theory tests should need to be redone every 10 years or so to ensure that everyone is up to date with the current rules and advice.

[Usarka]

Will the current accident stats suffice to show any improvements due to said initiatives?

Or are farm, off-road recreational, and road accidents still lumped into the same basket? No point changing something if it can't be measured accurately is my point, that's all.......

[Ocean1]

I put up some recent data in a thread a while back and mentioned I had coffee with these folks. They seemed genuine in their concerns and I think would respond to proactive action.

And I asked you to pass on a rude message. Wasn't fair I know, but my point was that as long as ACC averages the cost of risk across it's "clients" nobody is going to give a damn about the consequences of poor behaviour. It's an artificial market, don't expect the outcomes to make sense.

Of course, if the system was structured otherwise only the wealthy could afford to ride. And that ain't fair.


What about a graduated license scheme for those returning to riding?

Common steriotype eh? Is there hard data to suggest these dudes are more expensive to cover? If not why penalise them with more market "corrections".

What about power to weight ratio's?

Believe something similar is in the pipeline. Not sure if there's a substantive valid link to injury rates.

What about a special license for bikes over 120bhp based on extra training?

As above.

What about an acc / insurance rebate for non accident periods?

Now that I like.


One of my pet peeves is the lack of alternatives for "non-road-legal" motorcycle activities. Was a time when clubs were stronger, events were easier to get into. ACC and the RMA are arguably the biggest impediments to that. How about we ask them to at least back off wrt access to and legislation relating to tracks, sealed and otherwise.

[Oakie]

Does anyone have some sensible suggestions on how to reduce motorcycle accidents and injury rates? Please note I don't care a fig for blame here but rather I'm interested in laws or schemes that could work.

What about a graduated license scheme for those returning to riding?

What about power to weight ratio's?

What about a special license for bikes over 120bhp based on extra training?

What about an acc / insurance rebate for non accident periods?

All good ideas but unfortunately you could go through all these and in many cases it still comes down to relying on a rider's self-control. I think it's attitudes that need to be addressed, not just skill levels ... and how you effectively do that I just don't know.

[Ixion]

Look - this is all good, we are talking about it at least.

I put up some recent data in a thread a while back and mentioned I had coffee with these folks. They seemed genuine in their concerns and I think would respond to proactive action.

Does anyone have some sensible suggestions on how to reduce motorcycle accidents and injury rates? Please note I don't care a fig for blame here but rather I'm interested in laws or schemes that could work.

What about a graduated license scheme for those returning to riding?

What about power to weight ratio's?

What about a special license for bikes over 120bhp based on extra training?

What about an acc / insurance rebate for non accident periods?

OK.

Graduated scheme for those returning to riding? The Sheeple did much work on that a while ago, the papers are in the public domain. Problem is , how do you establish someone hasn't been riding? And, how MUCH riding is enough to keep it 'current'? Once around the block once a year? They though of all sorts of schemes : lapsing licences after so many years (of what?); retests, not so much for pass/fail, just on the basis that those who weren't riding wouldn't resit; basing it on owning a registered bike: all had major difficulties of practicality or fairness : think about them a bit. And where is the EVIDENCE that the problem is the dreaded BAB? He has become an urban myth, I'm far from convinced that he is the one we need to look at.

Power/weight? Well, that is the GDLS (or will be after the latest proposed revamp). How many graduations can you apply before it gets out of hand. And the more complex you make it, the more it will be ignored. Vast numbers already ignore the 250cc limit.

Special licence? Why not simply toughen up the existing licence, for eveyone ?

Discounts, rebates, flies in the face of the whole ACC model

The problem with all of these is that they will ONLY work on the people you are NOT trying to affect. The people who are crashing are not on KB. They don't go to RRRS courses. They won't learn on a 250 (or any other restricted bike). Like as not they don't have a bike licence at all - or even ANY licence. At present , Joe, who's never ridden a bike, but is bored with his Subaru Pffart Turbo can wander into a bike shop and buy a mean as Harley . He doesn't have a bike license, and in fact he's disqualified for DIC anyway. But, how hard can it be eh? And this bike thing is cool, you can overtake people easy as.And it's way cool to take the ho up to the pub for a few bevvies. Easier to get away from the pigs if they try to stop you than a car, too. Do you really think Joe is going to take any notice at all of any new rules?

Helpful suggestions, instead of pointing out flaws. I don't like solutions based on punsihment, but one thing that would probably help would be MAJOR increases in penalties for driving on a "wrong" licence.But it would have to be really major.

And concomitantly MAJOR toughening up of the driving tests, and make then a DRIVING test not a road code test. Also, (I REALLY hate to say this) provision for X hours instruction by a registered instructor. To stop the "Get the licence, never ride, and after 18months you can get your full" problem.

With some "break the rules you go back to square one" stuff along the way.

But I don't really think any of that would make a lot of difference. The biggest difference between riders who will (with just a little luck) survive , and be riding for many years to come, and those who will (unless they get real lucky) crash their way through a few years, then either die; or be too injured to ride; or realise that motorbikes are gay and give it away , is not skill, not a bit of plastic, not even experience. It's ATTITUDE.

I see new members come along here. I find I can very quickly pick the stayers from the crashers. Just by their posts without even meeting them. Of course, a few start out as crashers, then have an epiphany and turn into stayers. That's good. Never goes the other way though.

So , if you really wanted a practical suggestion for the ACC : I'd extend the GDLS schema wee bit . BHS test MUCH tougher , and requiring X hours of formal instruction ; 6L - limited to 125cc single cylinder , 50kph area (yeah, tough), for 3 months ; 6R limited to 400 cc twin cylinder or 650cc single (and some power to weight limits) for 18 months (400cc shouldn't make it TOO insufferable); 6P limited to something like a 650cc twin or 400cc four,put some P/W in to stop the smart guys, for 2 years, but none of the curfew and such like stuff ; 6A as present 6F. Much tougher tests with some sort of psychological aspect CONDUCTED BY PEOPLE WHO RIDE (the abysmal idiocy of the present system is highlighted by the fact that a class 6 tester doesn't have to have a class 6 licence himself !). Preferably, by bikie cops or something similar. One of the worst things that ever happened with regard to bike safety was turning the testing over to glorified clerks. The length of time before Wayne the accountant can ride that harley will put him off (quick : sell your AMPS shares!). But the revised 6R and 6P classes provide machines quite adequate for genuine bikers, even those who want to take pillions .

Speaking of which, noticed how many pillions get killed ? So, either ban pillions, or have a licence endorsement for them .

Severe penealties for breaching those conditions. And , anyone with a current class 6F has one year to apply to switch it to the new 6A. No tests, but a moderate fee (I'm thinking maybe $100 - low enough that dedicated bikers can afford it, but the 'hang onto it in case I ever want it' folk will think it's not worth it).

At the end of the year, any unswitched 6Fs automatically turn into 6Ps. That doesn't seem to unfair, or impractical . And will winnow out the BAB issue.

AND - bring in a similar scheme for class 1. Both for fairness and because a lot of bike casualties really are down to stupid cagers. They gloat about the fact that they are not killing themselves, but they gloss over the fact that they are still killing us.

Dedicated motorbike lanes. Like cycle lanes. In fact they could be the same lanes! Bugger all psyclists ever use them. They wouldn't mean much to the sprotsbikers, but they would cut back a lot on injuries to the 50ccc pscootists. Very little cost, and easy to implement.

Oh, and make the 50cc moped crowd sit at least the revised BHS test. Yes, it will be inconvenient. Tough

Make an "Motorcycle impact assessment" a mandatory part of all road renovations or new roads. (F'instance , DON'T cover the only practical bike line with white paint and steel manhole covers. With some actual riders to provide input - not clerks )

Shit, I could write pages on this stuff. And have , over the years. All of which has steadfastly been ignored by the Sheeple and TPTB. As will any suggestion you (or any of us put forward). They are not interested in suggestions to reduce the casualty rate , because that would reduce the effectiveness of their campaign against us.

The reality is that the Sheeple hate us. They always have and they always will. And nothing we can do or say oir suggest will ever change that fact.

[Slyer]

Nearly 4 years before one can ride a big bike? Don't you think thats a bit extreme?
Agree with most the rest of it though.

[Ixion]

No. Not really. It's only 18 months to be able to ride a ER6 or SV650, Those are hardly slow! (maybe make it 800cc twin to let the crusiers in a bit more). I'd been riding for 40 years before I rode bikes with more horsepower than that.

It's an interesting commentary (and probably highlights the problem) that bikes with nearly twice the power to weight ratio of a Meridan Bonnieville are dismissed thus. It still allows a 19 year old to ride a thou. Personally I'd go further and say that you couldn't get a 6A until 25 years old .

EDIT: It's actually more lenient than the present schem , cos you could ride a 400 after only 3 months (but don't forget that much tougher BHS test). And a very respectable bike after only 21 months. But , remember also, the bit about going backwards if you stuff up : sorry, sell the 650, you're back to a 400 for another 18 months. Best not to stuff up, eh. In fact that logic could be extended across the board.

[James Deuce]

Personally I'd go further and say that you couldn't get a 6A until 25 years old .
I'll join BRONZ now, just because you said that.

[riffer]

25? Try 35...

Seriously though, why don't we have BRONZ in Welly?

[James Deuce]

Seriously though, why don't we have BRONZ in Welly?
Because the last bunch of c**ts that ran it down here were about making a name for themselves, not representing motorcyclists. The sort of people who would come to a bike club meeting and then let the cops know where you were meeting up so they could turn up and do WoF and rego checks. People who would organise a toy run, demand money up front for badges and then not turn up on the day.

You know: Politicians.

[Mikkel]

I see blokes and blokettes standing out in the middle of an airstrip in all conditions giving up their sundays to help people ride safer.

I see volunteers giving up their evenings to prepare submissions to ACC.

I see the same bunch of sincere and well intentioned folks turn up at the meetings and do what they can to try and make the vehicles and their governance safer and fairer.

And quite a lot of others grizzling about it (don't mean you Mikkel) . Bring back Lou!

If that is indeed the case, that is awesome. Big kudos to anyone putting in a volunteer effort to improve anything for anyone!

However - and that could be living in Chch perhaps - the only incarnation of BRONZ I am familiar with is the column in Kiwirider magazine and that is what my comment was based upon.


I can only hope you will get off your arse and ensure BRONZ presents itself to your high standards.

Not very likely so don't get your hopes up:

1. I am an anti-social arsehole.
1. I do not have the patience necessary to do committee work.
1. I am not really concerned by the general state of affairs at the present time.
1. I have no standards - or so I have been informed by others on here.

Yes that's four points starting with "I", which is logical if you see point 1. And I suspect that the vast majority of other people out there riding motorcycles feel pretty much the same way, if they dare admit to it - which is why the situation is as it is. And that will always be the problem with any group consisting of people hell-bent on individual freedom.

[The Stranger]

Not very likely so don't get your hopes up:

1. I am an anti-social arsehole.
1. I do not have the patience necessary to do committee work.
1. I am not really concerned by the general state of affairs at the present time.
1. I have no standards - or so I have been informed by others on here.

Yes that's four points starting with "I", which is logical if you see point 1. And I suspect that the vast majority of other people out there riding motorcycles feel pretty much the same way, if they dare admit to it - which is why the situation is as it is. And that will always be the problem with any group consisting of people hell-bent on individual freedom.

Sure, pretty much as I expected. So just shut up and grab your ankles.

[Big Dave]

I don't like age restrictions.

I'd already been riding more than 10 years when I was old enough to get a licence.

Skill and training based.

[DEATH_INC.]

My opinion is contrary to yours, I think they're the most ignorant, aggorant pack of road users out there
Hmmmmm, I tend to agree. Take a step back and have an honest look at yourself from a cage/ general public point of view.
We lane split, speed, pass in short spaces, cut people off, roll up to the front of cues and sit in front of them, don't keep left on m/ways, ride in big groups, make noise, do wheelies and stuff, go round corners fast, do skids, blah, blah blah..... all the stuff we roast boy-racers for. There would be very few who aren't guilty of at least a couple of these things
I drive hillsborough road every day, outta the 7-8 regular bikes I see, only 1 fits in and goes with the traffic, ALL the others pass up the median at well in excess of 50k, or at least into oncoming traffic.
I know this is just one example, but the hundreds of cages sitting there see it every day, and will prolly form an opinion based on this.
Bikers have done this stuff for as long as bikes have been around, and prolly always will, it's very much part of being a non-conformist, which is really what riding bikes is all about, isn't it?

[oldrider]

Just back to Ray Shearman for a minute.

I am not affilliated to bike racing in capacity except as an interested spectator.

I had never heard of Ray until he made his radio coments the other day.

Thanks to this thread and other media, I now know a lot more about him.

On reflection, I think Ray was hoodwinked into making his radio comments in the vane that the "interviewer" wanted him to proceed.

At one stage he made a comment that suggested that he did not even know that he was live on air!

Based on the radio interview, my comments were valid.

Knowing what I know now I would appologise for my comments and the cunt reference would be leveled at the media. :shutup:

I think he was stiched up. Bastards. John.

PS: If BRONZ was disestablished, who would be the motorcyclists alternative voice? :shit: On that alone, I say "YES" to BRONZ.

[Salival]

Look - this is all good, we are talking about it at least.

I put up some recent data in a thread a while back and mentioned I had coffee with these folks. They seemed genuine in their concerns and I think would respond to proactive action.

Does anyone have some sensible suggestions on how to reduce motorcycle accidents and injury rates? Please note I don't care a fig for blame here but rather I'm interested in laws or schemes that could work.

What about a graduated license scheme for those returning to riding?

What about power to weight ratio's?

What about a special license for bikes over 120bhp based on extra training?

What about an acc / insurance rebate for non accident periods?
Would there be a way of creating a requirement for more safety equipment to be worn?

As I understand it, at the moment you have to wear a helmet. That's it. And if I had a dollar for every time I've seen someone on a 'busa in a t-shirt and shorts...

I read an article a few years ago that basically said the strategy for reducing road injuries in the future will actually involve more crashes, but at a lower speed (think roundabouts rather than traffic lights). In a minor drop, a lot of skin could be kept on the body if people were wearing proper safety gear, or at least jeans and a jacket of some sort. Might not make a difference in a major, but if more accidents are going to occur at low speed, safety gear would make a significant difference to the severity of injuries suffered.

If there was an 'all skin covered' law, or something similar, that would really help.

[Swoop]

What about a graduated license scheme for those returning to riding?
Quite simply, less "paper" based stuff and more practical.
If a licence changes back to a "P", will the rider take any notice of this?

Sensible courses (RRRS?) to start with, that are officially recognised and are not simply a "track day" situation.
Possibly a recurrency training situation? ALL riders to do this every XX years?

[smoky]

So what I’ve been hearing is; we all want the nanny state to tell us how to ride and impose more regulations on us because we’re useless unsafe bastards on the road.

:baby:

[Swoop]

So what I’ve been hearing is; we all want the nanny state to tell us how to ride and impose more regulations on us because we’re useless unsafe bastards on the road.

:baby:
That is the path that katman is dragging us down...

[smoky]

That is the path that katman is dragging us down...

And Salival; we'll end up having to get WOF for our riding gear as well.

:shit:

[Big Dave]

We're all going to Katman doo-doo.

[Katman]

That is the path that katman is dragging us down...

What a load of fucking bullshit.

I've only ever suggested motorcyclists should start sorting their own shit out in order to avoid the government legislating us out of existence.

Shows how little attention you've been paying.

[Headbanger]

What a load of fucking bullshit.

I've only ever suggested motorcyclists should start sorting their own shit out in order to avoid the government legislating us out of existence.

Shows how little attention you've been paying.


Well, I thought it was ironic.....

[Swoop]

What a load of fucking bullshit.

I've only ever suggested motorcyclists should start sorting their own shit out in order to avoid the government legislating us out of existence.

Shows how little attention you've been paying.
You really haven't fully thought through the consequences of your actions, have you.
The gubbinment love comments like yours, since they will be turned against the collective "whole" of motorcyclists.

[Ixion]

It is never wise to wash ones dirty linen in public. Or at least unwise to spread it out for the examination of ones enemies.

We may all know that every other rider is a totally incompetent psychopathic maniac (well, there a FEW of you who I'd trust); but it is best to keep such observations within the family.

Sort of like Great Uncle George. We all know, betwixt ourselves, he's a lying cheating dipsomaniac. But none of the family would wish to see him publically so catagorised.

Sartor, resartus, gentlemen.

[Katman]

You really haven't fully thought through the consequences of your actions, have you.
The gubbinment love comments like yours, since they will be turned against the collective "whole" of motorcyclists.

So what the fuck would be the result of just burying our heads in the sand?

:weird:

[Swoop]

So what the fuck would be the result of just burying our heads in the sand?

:weird:
Do you look upwards and see contrails, very often?

[Katman]

Do you look upwards and see contrails, very often?

Do you ever open your fucking eyes?

[Swoop]

Yes, thank you, I do.

How are your new glasses fitting?

[Katman]

How are your new glasses fitting?

Now that's ironic.

[smoky]

Fight fight fight...........
:jerry:



:girlfight::2guns:

[Brian d marge]

I was reading in the Asahi Newspaper the other day about POVERTY in Mexico and the causes of it . Try .....

Masochism

Authoritarianism

Lack of participation in Local issues due to ....

Passivity

Low need of / for Education

Finally, Fatalism ,, ( Mr and Mrs Right Now )


I reckon the nail was hit on the head there ,,, ALL the country's I have lived in that have had . One or some of the above .....and yes those people are the problem people...

You cure the above and Motorcycling will be safe for the masses once again ,,,,,,,,,,,


Stephen

Oh and ,,Big Dave ,,, KiwiRider the December issue ..Page 8 ... ,,,,,while others will be going hard out .................... ( on the ROAD ????? I assume road as the proceeding paragraph was talking about riding on the road ...)

bit irresponsible isn't it??? .. I mean is the magazine promoting riding in a spirited fashion ...which on a BSA Bantam ...ended up ..well with a seized engine ... or bits falling off me 650 .....

But on a ZX10 ...or Fireblade...riding in a spirited fashion ,,,Can REALLY give you a bad hair day ...........


pps ...Hi Viz Vests .... ????????????? all black and pretending to be staunch ..I can understand ..but yellow Hi viz vests .....( what......... should they be PINK??)


the last post for 2008 ... ...................Happy New Year ...you all .......

[Big Dave]

Oh and ,,Big Dave ,,, KiwiRider the December issue ..


Dunno mate sorry - you'd have to take it up with ross, he has his own unique - and much respected - take on things. Bloke bleeds for it.

best to y'all.

[Pixie]

The things that will reduce the road toll are:

1. A real training and license test.Like in Europe.One that costs $3000 to complete.FOR ALL DRIVERS.

2. The ACC ,NZTA,and Police to spend the money they waste on stupid TV ads,on the above training.




Ixion refers to non bikers as sheeple.
I've got bad news for you,folks.New Zealand bikers are just as sheep like as the rest of the population.
When the next ACC levy increase occurs are you going to refuse to register your bikes in protest,as they did in Bulgaria recently?
No, you will bend over and pay,as they did in Victoria,where a protest against a $56 TAC anti-bike tax attracted 40 bikers in a state that boasts 130,000
registered motorcycles.

[Tank]

The things that will reduce the road toll are:

1. A real training and license test.Like in Europe.One that costs $3000 to complete.FOR ALL DRIVERS.


I got a license in the UK and it cost nothing like that. Pretty much a 1/2 days training and I was on the road (250cc max from memory).

Besides at 3k per license there would only be one license holder per family - then who is going to drive me home when Im pissed?

[Usarka]

In the UK they do actually fail people.

Unusual concept.

[mashman]

As a pommy twat I sat my bike test in the UK... I paid over the odds to fast track it, DAS course (as long as you are over the age of 25). Cost me about 1200 bucks for a 5 day course. Pass the course and you can ride what you like!!! day 1 is a ride around the cones, on a 125, in a playground as well as covering the usual basic handling stuff. Day 2, the morning is cones and the afternoon you take to the open road on a 125... Day 3 morning is open road on the 125, afternoon was straight on to the 500's. Day 4 and 5 (morning) are open road on a 500 (always riding the same roads) and a couple of mock tests... day 5 afternoon is the test... Job done, please pick up the bike of your choice and thanks for paying attention. good enough???

[Usarka]

As a pommy twat I sat my bike test in the UK... I paid over the odds to fast track it, DAS course (as long as you are over the age of 25). Cost me about 1200 bucks for a 5 day course. Pass the course and you can ride what you like!!! day 1 is a ride around the cones, on a 125, in a playground as well as covering the usual basic handling stuff. Day 2, the morning is cones and the afternoon you take to the open road on a 125... Day 3 morning is open road on the 125, afternoon was straight on to the 500's. Day 4 and 5 (morning) are open road on a 500 (always riding the same roads) and a couple of mock tests... day 5 afternoon is the test... Job done, please pick up the bike of your choice and thanks for paying attention. good enough???


The thing with this course is that you have an instructor in your ear the whole time, so you learn the RIGHT way first time. Bad habits don't even get a chance to get a shoe in.

I did this method and I reckon I would have learnt a lot of lessons the hard way if I'd done the old kiwi round the cones then she'll be right licence method.

[Mikkel]

Besides at 3k per license there would only be one license holder per family - then who is going to drive me home when Im pissed?

In Denmark the average price of a license is at least 3 grand - that's just for the car, it gets more expensive if you want to add a motorcycle endorsement.

Qualified instructors require payment, thus the mandatory 20 hours of supervised instruction becomes rather expensive. Also, there's a requirement to do a day at a watertrack training driving in slippery conditions practicing aquaplaning and such (with and without ABS). You can not get a drivers license without being able to do a parallel park, reverse park, 3-point turn, etc.

They fail people yes, but still not nearly enough.

[mashman]

The thing with this course is that you have an instructor in your ear the whole time, so you learn the RIGHT way first time. Bad habits don't even get a chance to get a shoe in.

I did this method and I reckon I would have learnt a lot of lessons the hard way if I'd done the old kiwi round the cones then she'll be right licence method.

Fair comment. In comparison the UK system does seem better. I still think that 5 days on the road wasn't enough for my riding experience (I sat my test over 4 weekends and a Friday). I hadn't been on a bike in over 10 years. I know there's no way to guarentee that you have previous riding experience, but to let someone just go ahead seems a little crazy... same can be said for the car too, but until they bring in a similar system to flying lessons i guess there's nothing that can be done!!!

[Ixion]

The call for tougher driving tests is a frequently heard one. And there is good logic in it. But, two points that bikers need to consider -

One , is that, at present the tests for cars and bikes are much the same . Obviously, there are some differences , but the standard expected is much of a muchness. Now, ideally we would like to see tests tougher for ALL road users, cages as well as bikes. But, real world calling here, that ain't going to happen. The gubbermint might agree to toughening up on bike tests , but never on cage tests. So, how would people feel if getting a bike licence was a LOT harder than getting a car licencse? Me, I'd feel that was OK, sort of puts the official stamp on us being an elite.

Secondly, a corollary of tougher tests is tougher penalties for those that drive without a licence , on the wrong licence or outside licence conditions.Otherwise, noone woiuld bother to sit the tougher test. And a tougher test would mean the penalties would have to be REALLY tough. Like gaol time, anyone? Awful lot of bikers could be in jeopardy from that .

How do people feel about that ? I'm interested in input.

EDIT: By 'tougher' I mean tougher as in showing that you can actually ride, and are sane, not tougher as in more scratchy questions, or longer ta each stage. But maybe tougher as in being followed by a bikie cop for a whole day , couple of hundred kilometres, tougher as in one speeding ticket and you're back to square one, on an L plate.

[dipshit]

How do people feel about that ? I'm interested in input.

The system in Europe is set up to help keep drug-fucked losers off the roads.

We would see too many 'waaaaaaa' posts around here complaining of how much it costs to get a licence if NZ adopted similar standards to the UK.

[dangerous]

Im going in the deep end here cos I aint read past the post Im quoting...


Who on earth elected the Canterbury regional co-ordinator of Motorcycling New Zealand, Ray Shearman? He's a plonker. Who gave him a mandate to speak for motorcyclists? He missed the obvious points;

Im backing Ray, hes a old school gentelman, a farking good old stick perhaps not the right person to have interviewed but saying that he still rides regulary on the road... and he also has a sence of humer about him, maybe, just maybe the reporter didnt see this.

[Big Dave]

Im going in the deep end here cos I aint read past the post Im quoting...


It's adequately explained.
Good or bad reporting - depending on which side of the cheque you are.

[Arkwright]

So Motorcycling has a PR problem. For some reason the public thinks we keep killing ourselves. In the midst of this the press ask Ray Shearman, Canterbury co-ordinatior for MNZ, for his opinion...

...and he blames women. Great.

Now I'm sure that Ray does a lot of great work for Motorcycling in general but, seriously, should we find the people who are going to be asked for soundbites and get them some media/PR training because that shit is not helping.

Dave

Cut the guy some slack. He's devoted his WHOLE LIFE (that's way more than half a century) to motorcycling, and all disciplins as well. Maybe old fashioned is best. It's the cage drivers that need training, not the teckie PC brigade. Bad language doesn't promte your case any either.

Arkwright

[Arkwright]

[QUOTE=Arkwright;1129822595]Cut the guy some slack. He's devoted his WHOLE LIFE (that's way more than half a century) to motorcycling, and all disciplins as well. Maybe old fashioned is best. It's the cage drivers that need training, not the teckie PC brigade. Bad language doesn't promte your case any either.

Arkwright[/.......QUOTE]

[bistard]

So Motorcycling has a PR problem. For some reason the public thinks we keep killing ourselves. In the midst of this the press ask Ray Shearman, Canterbury co-ordinatior for MNZ, for his opinion...

...and he blames women. Great.

Now I'm sure that Ray does a lot of great work for Motorcycling in general but, seriously, should we find the people who are going to be asked for soundbites and get them some media/PR training because that shit is not helping.

Dave

He may have done some good work a few decades ago,but he is well past his use by date & should retire & stop embarrasing the rest of us

[Gubb]

Bad language doesn't promte your case any either.

You're gonna fuckin' love me then.

[Big Dave]

You're gonna fuck'n love me.

Not necessarily in that order though.

[Kickaha]

He may have done some good work a few decades ago,but he is well past his use by date & should retire & stop embarrasing the rest of us

He certainly isn't past his use by date and has done good work a lot more recently than "a few decades ago"

He certainly didn't embarrass me with his comments which were based on what he has experienced

Pity Arkwright didn't check the thread date before resurrecting it

[dangerous]

He certainly isn't past his use by date and has done good work a lot more recently than "a few decades ago"

He certainly didn't embarrass me with his comments which were based on what he has experienced

Pity Arkwright didn't check the thread date before resurrecting it

This posts worth quoting, I back it all the way.