Biker carnage on the increase (Stuff article)

[ceebie13]

Without commenting further on this "initiative" I thought I'd at least start the ball rolling by posting the link. I realise that our feelings as bikers will already be found in the pages of KB, but I'm sure we'll have a field day with this one.
Any one care to start?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4804914a11.html

[Katman]

Regardless of whether the increase in deaths proportionally matches the increase in bike numbers on our roads the general public and the people who make the rules will happily use these figures against us.

It's up to us to reverse the trend.

Edit: Actually it's probably more accurate to say "It's far preferable for it to be us that reverses the trend".

Because if we leave it up to the Government to attempt a reversal we can all kiss our motorcycling freedom goodbye.

[portokiwi]

:Punk: Way to go biker girl:Punk:

[speeding_ant]

Regardless of whether the increase in deaths proportionally matches the increase in bike numbers on our roads the general public and the people who make the rules will happily use these figures against us.

It's up to us to reverse the trend.

Insightful

[Headbanger]

Damn those cagers, Damn them to hell.








Its the cagers fault right?

[James Deuce]

We're on to it over here:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=89070

[AD345]

I haven't carnaged anyone for weeks!

[thommo77]

Well done,media. Get onto something and you beat it to death (Tony Veitch etc etc). Pack of sensationalist blood-hounds.

[AllanB]

I am still surprised that you can get your bike license at 16, ride for a couple of years then stop.
then
25 years later you can then buy a 300kg Harley to impress your mates or try to revive your youth and purchase a CBR, GSXR1000 etc.

All this with no rider re-training of any type what-so-ever.



Also the government should introduce a 'chicken-strip' tax - the less you have the more tax you pay. <_<

[Sparrowhawk]

Regardless of whether the increase in deaths proportionally matches the increase in bike numbers on our roads the general public and the people who make the rules will happily use these figures against us.

It's up to us to reverse the trend.

Edit: Actually it's probably more accurate to say "It's far preferable for it to be us that reverses the trend".

Because if we leave it up to the Government to attempt a reversal we can all kiss our motorcycling freedom goodbye.

I find myself agreeing with you more & more katman. Are there pills for that?

But you're right, especially your edit.

And, yeah, it's often the cagers, and the media/govt blow it out of proportion, but at the end of the day, it's our arses on the line. Anything to increase awareness (constructively) would be a help.

[Sparrowhawk]

Also the government should introduce a 'chicken-strip' tax - the less you have the more tax you pay. <_<

I love it!! :clap:

[AlBundy]

Also the government should introduce a 'chicken-strip' tax - the less you have the more tax you pay. <_<

Fuck off! Part of the enjoyment of motorbikes is corners. Actually, most of biking is about corners.

If you haven't learnt to appreciate that, then go get a scooter.


I love it!! :clap:

What would you know? Have you been to a track day and experienced the fun?

[martybabe]

This here : ACC claims have gone from $36.7 million in 2000 to more than $62.5m. is code for legislation is coming your way Mr and Mrs biker peeps.

[Mikkel]

Gilbert said motorcyclists should not be on the road if they did not have the skill to operate the bikes.

While I agree with Gilbert on this - I think the same is equally valid for our 4+ wheeled compatriots.

Unlike bikers, cagers who doesn't apply sense and caution in their motoring are not unlikely to be repeat offenders.

[riffer]

This here : ACC claims have gone from $36.7 million in 2000 to more than $62.5m. is code for legislation is coming your way Mr and Mrs biker peeps.


which is seriously missing the point. I am very sure that we have a lot more bikes on the road now compared to 2000, and medical costs have skyrocketed in the last 10 years.

So using those two figures alone, we must be having less crashes per capita.

Does anyone have the 2000 registration figures compared to 2008 ones?

[Tone165]

More on this here

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=86447&page=9

[AllanB]

Fuck off! Part of the enjoyment of motorbikes is corners. Actually, most of biking is about corners.

If you haven't learnt to appreciate that, then go get a scooter.
What would you know? Have you been to a track day and experienced the fun?


I've been riding for over 27 years continuously, I've even been around a few of those bendy corners you speak off. Fraken strange things they make my motorcycle lean over, very disturbing. :confused:

For fucks sake Mr Bundy, it's a piss take, a joke, a laugh. Sheez.

Must be the heat today.......

[Ixion]

which is seriously missing the point. I am very sure that we have a lot more bikes on the road now compared to 2000, and medical costs have skyrocketed in the last 10 years.

So using those two figures alone, we must be having less crashes per capita.

Does anyone have the 2000 registration figures compared to 2008 ones?

For the last three years :

OK, the total number of bike crashes and deaths ahs risen over the last three years. But, per 10000 bikes registered (same sources), it's actually gone down

2007 4.5%
2006 5.1%
2005 5.6%

[Big Zappa]

For the last three years :

OK, the total number of bike crashes and deaths ahs risen over the last three years. But, per 10000 bikes registered (same sources), it's actually gone down

2007 4.5%
2006 5.1%
2005 5.6%

Wow, funny how nobody (ie media etc) picked up on this..

[Anarkist]

Wow, funny how nobody (ie media etc) picked up on this..

Picked up on, or 'ignored' for a more persuasive story?

[Winston001]

For the last three years :

OK, the total number of bike crashes and deaths ahs risen over the last three years. But, per 10000 bikes registered (same sources), it's actually gone down

2007 4.5%
2006 5.1%
2005 5.6%

Interesting. Whats the source of the data? As for the media, they aren't going to find such info unless it is spoon-fed to them. Todays journalists are driven by deadlines and the expectation of "beating up" every story. Sensationalising.

I love bikes. I ride too fast sometimes. I get a clenched bowel every now and then from an overcooked corner or a cage doing something unexpected. '

Riding motorcycles is inherently thrilling - and dangerous. Thats why we do it. Can't complain if other taxpayers object to paying for us deliberately putting ourselves at risk, and needing medical care.

[James Deuce]

Interesting. Whats the source of the data? As for the media, they aren't going to find such info unless it is spoon-fed to them. Todays journalists are driven by deadlines and the expectation of "beating up" every story. Sensationalising.



It is spoon fed to them. It's on both the LTNZ and Stats NZ sites.

[Ixion]

Interesting. Whats the source of the data? As for the media, they aren't going to find such info unless it is spoon-fed to them. Todays journalists are driven by deadlines and the expectation of "beating up" every story. Sensationalising.

...


Ministry of Transport's own figures. From their website. 2005 (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/NewFolder/local-body-2005.pdf), 2006 (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/section7-local-body-2006.pdf), 2007 (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motor-Vehicle-Crashes-in-New-Zealand-2007.pdf). More, including rebuttal of the "it's the old gits falling off" claim , here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1837932&postcount=103)

[Skyryder]

I seem to recall reading something recently about the Govt intentions doing something about the 'increase' of bike crashes. Never kept the link but I'm guessing it is going to be draconian one way or the other.

Daresay we will all find out what.................sooner than later.


Skyryder

[Mia]

Wouldn't sweat- it as, the sun goes down the, cold sets in motorcycle crashes will decline because the majority of them will be tucked up in sheds with covers until the sun comes out again..:yes:
Then the Media & everyone else will find something else to talk about...

[BMWST?]

This here : ACC claims have gone from $36.7 million in 2000 to more than $62.5m. is code for legislation is coming your way Mr and Mrs biker peeps.

and if bkes regos have gone up as much so have the collections of levies....the main point is ....as car numbers are going up are their costs going down????

[Tone165]

ACC levies up for bikers!

To me that's like saying women should pay more tax because they use hospital and legal resources when they are raped.

The stats for numbers of crashes are worthless because many car on car accidents do not cause injury at all...and therefore do not show up in the figures...even though they are caused the same way as bike accidents.

Even minor bike accidents involve injuries, and are almost all recorded in the stats.

So when you see figures of crashes...insert the word "Reported" somewhere.

[JMemonic]

Wouldn't sweat- it as, the sun goes down the, cold sets in motorcycle crashes will decline because the majority of them will be tucked up in sheds with covers until the sun comes out again..:yes:
Then the Media & everyone else will find something else to talk about...

And that might just be part of the problem, folks who get their bikes out on sunny days, or those who get their bikes out in the warmer days of spring and put them away with the first rain of autumn and get say 5 months of riding in.

[FROSTY]

Heres another perspective on it too.
The medical system is so fucked up its costing MORE per patient to deal with accidents.
Example 1--I joined the "chain gang" --hospital 1 unable to deal with it so ambo transfer to hospital 2
example 2 --sleep time on taupo track.
Hospital 1 ill equiped so unable to deal with the damage
sent to hospital 2 who spent hours to deal with and pre op on busted arm/wrist. before -no yer outa zone so send me to hospital 3 for treatment.

[Gizzit]

What I get from that "stuff it" article is that .... females driving cages, while on the cell phone ..... is the REAL problem !!! :jerry:





sits back ..... waits for female to soundly thrash me. You know I deserve it! ... :msn-wink:

[dipshit]

What I get from that "stuff it" article is that .... females driving cages, while on the cell phone ..... is the REAL problem !!!


Well that's the delusion the likes of BRONZ or Motorcycling New Zealand would like us to believe.

[Gizzit]

Well that's the delusion the likes of BRONZ or Motorcycling New Zealand would like us to believe.

Mmm ...... must be something in the way I wrote, or added silly smilies .... I intended it as humour, not a serious opinion .... However, I do take your point. :niceone:

[**R1**]

they should make ever1 ride bikes, it would help keep the population down :-)

[discotex]

they should make ever1 ride bikes, it would help keep the population down :-)

And your proof for this would be southeast Asia right? <_<

[firefighter]

To me that's like saying women should pay more tax because they use hospital and legal resources when they are raped.

Hahahahaha, very eloquently put

[dipshit]

Mmm ...... must be something in the way I wrote, or added silly smilies .... I intended it as humour, not a serious opinion .... However, I do take your point.

No indeed, your summary of that article was bang on the money.

Whenever someone like BRONZ or some other motorcycling body talks to mainstream media - there is always "it's mostly the car's fault" underlying tow.

[Slyer]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4806309a28.html
Stuff readers probably don't like us very much now. :bleh:

[swbarnett]

ACC levies up for bikers!

To me that's like saying women should pay more tax because they use hospital and legal resources when they are raped.
Unfortunately there's an important difference. Being a motorcyclist is a choice, being a woman is not (unless you undergo surgery...).

[stevewederell]

While I agree with Gilbert on this - I think the same is equally valid for our 4+ wheeled compatriots.

Unlike bikers, cagers who doesn't apply sense and caution in their motoring are not unlikely to be repeat offenders.

Agreed,

Also shouldn't drink if you can't do it responsibly,

Have a firearm for same reason,

Cook if you're not hygienic,

Be a builder if you're not up to standard...

Gilbert, or fucking Dilbert - anyone can make a stat' work to whatever direction they wish to take it. Really looking forward to the levies going up again:angry:

Have a groovy New Year everyone, stay safe and lets look after each other eh?!:Punk:

[Slyer]

Being a motorcyclist is a choice
This is debatable. ;)

[swbarnett]

This is debatable. ;)
I know what you mean...:yes:

[JMemonic]

Canterbury crash figures hot of the press



New Zealand Police Alert 1:00am 1 Jan 2009 Canterbury


Location of incident: Canterbury


Incident type: Canterbury Road Toll Press release

46 people died on Canterbury roads during 2008. 'This is a massive impact on Cantabrians' said Inspector Derek Erasmus, Road Policing Manager for the District. 'While it is 10 less than last year, which is a small blessing, the fact that so many people can be killed on our roads is a tragedy!' In the vast majority of these crashes a driver has done something wrong with disastrous consequences. They are not accidents'

The road toll of 46 compares to -

56 in 2007
33 in 2006
44 in 2005
40 in 2004
52 in 2003
41 in 2002
44 in 2001
32 in 2000

Canterbury Police spent the first six months of the year concentrating on seatbelt enforcement. Over 9,300 seatbelt tickets were issued in this time. During the year 10 of those killed were not wearing seatbelts as required. 9 of those would have or may have survived if they had been wearing belts. However this compares to 20 people killed in 2007 who were not wearing belts, 15 of whom would have survived if they had.

For the second 6 months of the year Canterbury Police concentrated on breath testing as many drivers as possible. Over 250,000 (106,000 in the same period in 2007) drivers were tested in this period. 6 people were killed as a result of alcohol compared to 21 in 2007.

Speed was an increasing factor in road deaths during 2007. 23 died as a result of travelling too fast for the conditions compared to 15 in 2007. Canterbury Police will be having a focus on speed during the first half of 2009.

Other issues of note were, 3 deaths were associated with mobility scooters (an aging population means this could be an increasing trend), 8 deaths were motorcycle related, and 5 had fatigue as a contributing cause. There were 7 deaths in Selwyn compared to 16 last year.

The total number of crashes reported to Canterbury Police for 2008 was 3,136 compared to 3,265 in 2007.


8 motorcycle deaths you will note, still waiting of course for the final figure as there are some unfortunate folks still in ICU, I see 10 less deaths than last year, 3 deaths related to mobility scooters which is odd but there they are it happened on the road, oh and reread the section on motorcycle deaths, 8 deaths yet 5 had fatigue as a contributing factor, what of the camper van driver? or of the motorcyclist cause its going to be hard to work out if the dead person was tired.

[ArcherWC]

also note that offroad (MX etc) are includded for ACC as the catch all "motorcycle accidents" but of course they dont contribute to the ACC "fund"

[ManDownUnder]

Is anyone here capable of putting together statistically valid results (i.e. those that actually demonstrate significance in their results).

I'm curious to see the following correlations:
* injuries per 10,000 motorcycles/annum
* deaths per 10,000 motorcycles/annum
* injuries per 10,000 bicycles/annum
* deaths per 10,000 bicycles/annum
* price of fuel for each year (I know - a tough one...)

I concur with the idea that cars cause the carnage, but the victim on two wheels is left to pay the bill and end up looking bad in the statistics. I expect that will manifest itself in the number of m/c AND cycle deaths and injuries (and possibly other modes of transport I haven't thought of).

I have an idea the price of fuel increasing is driving more people onto "non car" modes of transport. What is unclear from there is:
* How much does the increase in novices on 2 wheels contributes to the carnage rate?
* How much the carnage will occur because of poor car driving simply having greater opportunity for accidents because of the increase in 2 wheels traffic.

We (motorcyclists) do need to take a neutral viewpoint on this rather than simply blame the cars becuase if there is something we are doing to contribute to the carnage it's in our interests to find it and address it.

Likewise if it's the car drivers causing the problems - then they can do their bit to address the problems, and pay the bills.

Does anyone have those stats? Or - if I can get them, is anyone able to analyse them?

[Ocean1]

Canterbury crash figures hot of the press

Which Stuff is reporting as:

Middle-aged men dominated motorcycle crash figures with eight deaths in 2008 compared with three the previous year.

"Middle-aged men are rediscovering their youth on a powerful bike. It reflects a trend around the rest of the world," he said.

"Often they are inexperienced riders on a new high-powered motorcycle," Erasmus said.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4807154a11.html

So, all yous old bastards down there; STOP IT!!!





:whistle:

[Katman]

I concur with the idea that cars cause the carnage,

Really?

I think you'll actually find the majority of the carnage is caused by motorcyclists with a Rossi Complex.

[toycollector10]

You're still twice as likely to drown in New Zealand than die riding a motorcycle.

114 a year on average according to the Water Safety NZ website.

[Katman]

You're still twice as likely to drown in New Zealand than die riding a motorcycle.

114 a year on average according to the Water Safety NZ website.

A whole lot more people go swimming than ride motorbikes.

[Tank]

Really?

I think you'll actually find the majority of the carnage is caused by motorcyclists with a Rossi Complex.

Mate - Im a slow as fuck rider (spent all last night with my bike mates taking the piss out of me about how slow I am - and they dont ride fast).

My wife rides a 125 scooter and is slower than a slow thing - she simply never speeds.

Yet both of us have had incidents caused by cars that could have taken our lives. Hell - I was hit when stationary at a give way and pushed into oncoming traffic.

There are plenty of people like us - who abide the speed limits, ride very carefully and are ATGATT bods - yet get killed due to the inattention of others.

Your views are based on your assumption that most bikers are idiots. While your cause has merit - your assumptions are fundamentally flawed.

[McJim]

Mate - Im a slow as fuck rider (spent all last night with my bike mates taking the piss out of me about how slow I am - and they dont ride fast).

My wife rides a 125 scooter and is slower than a slow thing - she simply never speeds.

Yet both of us have had incidents caused by cars that could have taken our lives. Hell - I was hit when stationary at a give way and pushed into oncoming traffic.

There are plenty of people like us - who abide the speed limits, ride very carefully and are ATGATT bods - yet get killed due to the inattention of others.

Your views are based on your assumption that most bikers are idiots. While your cause has merit - your assumptions are fundamentally flawed.

Ditto, the couple of prangs I've had have been slow speed and caused by a car. Kind of makes me dislike cars a bit.

[Shaun]

Have not read the whole thread sorry But

I am not a road rider, I am a racer, and when I see groups of riders riding together like they think they are racing cyclist, ie NO room in case, I neally spew at the stupity of it, I know I have fast reactions to shite situations, but most road riders do not, and only realy survive due to luck!

If you want to ride safer, give each other a lot more room, even get close to legal following distances, ( even at over 100mph if that is what you want do) so what if ya mate gets to the shop before ya, at least you got there.

[Katman]

Your views are based on your assumption that most bikers are idiots. While your cause has merit - your assumptions are fundamentally flawed.

I have never said most bikers are idiots - I have always said there are a large number of idiots that ride bikes.

I have never said car drivers never cause motorcycle accidents - I have always said the majority of motorcycle accidents are either the fault of the motorcyclists or there was, at the very least, the ability to avoid or reduce the severity of the accident by the motorcyclist improving their situational awareness.

[MacD]

Your views are based on your assumption that most bikers are idiots. While your cause has merit - your assumptions are fundamentally flawed.

No they're not. I can't understand why motorcyclists are so much in denial about the crash statistics. Perhaps it's a protective mechanism so that we can rationalise away the risks of riding?

The MOT publishes annual statistics, summarised in the Motorcycle Crash Factsheets (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf) which have been linked on this site numerous times, which show that (my italics):


For more serious crashes, the motorcyclist was more likely to have the primary responsibility for the crash. The motorcycle rider had the primary responsibility for nearly three-quarters of fatal motorcycle crashes, but the comparable figure for minor injury crashes was about half (50%).

Now people will debate the accuracy of these statistics and the method of analysis, but these are the numbers the politicians are seeing and will base their decisions on. Remember we now have a conservative, user-pays philosophy government which will have little interest in subsidising a minority of road users.

The "70% of motorcycle accidents are caused by car drivers" mantra is an urban legend. It's in the order of 40%, still too high a figure, but that means ~60% are primarily under our control.

[devnull]

No they're not. I can't understand why motorcyclists are so much in denial about the crash statistics. Perhaps it's a protective mechanism so that we can rationalise away the risks of riding?

The MOT publishes annual statistics, summarised in the Motorcycle Crash Factsheets (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf) which have been linked on this site numerous times, which show that (my italics):



Now people will debate the accuracy of these statistics and the method of analysis, but these are the numbers the politicians are seeing and will base their decisions on. Remember we now have a conservative, user-pays philosophy government which will have little interest in subsidising a minority of road users.

The "70% of motorcycle accidents are caused by car drivers" mantra is an urban legend. It's in the order of 40%, still too high a figure, but that means ~60% are primarily under our control.

There's still an MOT?

I'd say that the crash statistics here would be similar to those overseas.
When we look at overseas data, we see that LTSA is very selective in what they publish i.e. they introduce bias

See http://www.motorcycle-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

6. In the multiple vehicle accidents, the driver of the other vehicle violated the motorcycle right-of-way and caused the accident in two-thirds of those accidents.

And:

http://www.acc.co.nz/injury-prevention/road-safety/WCM001268

Intersection crashes which usually involves the motorcyclist with legal right of way hitting a vehicle. In many cases the drivers defence is claiming not to have seen the motorcyclist.

[Mikkel]

I'm willing to put money on that we won't see any significant change in these statistics before there are imposed higher requirements upon getting a license and some sort of review mechanism on your motoring behaviour (could be compulsory 3rd party, could be something else...).

Considering the drowning statistics, maybe there should be put some laws into place dictating how and where to swim and police hours should allocated to combat this menace to society... j/k

[ManDownUnder]

Really?

I think you'll actually find the majority of the carnage is caused by motorcyclists with a Rossi Complex.

Actually fair question... on reflection I made the statement based on my little part of the world. I don't ride under Rossi's influence making the major dangers around me 4 wheeled.

Overall I'd still question your claim ...

[dipshit]

There's still an MOT?
I'd say that the crash statistics here would be similar to those overseas.

Well why don't you click on the link MacD provided and actually find out.




When we look at overseas data, we see that LTSA is very selective in what they publish i.e. they introduce bias

Googleing until you find some country's statistics that don't look quite as bad doesn't change what happens in this country. A lot depends on how much city/urban environment there is versus more open less congested country roads.

[dipshit]

Actually fair question... on reflection I made the statement based on my little part of the world. I don't ride under Rossi's influence making the major dangers around me 4 wheeled.

So you are going to make a guess at NZ statistics based on you and your wife's experiences?



Overall I'd still question your claim ...

His claim has a bit more basis than your one you just made up...
http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

[Ixion]

A whole lot more people go swimming than ride motorbikes.

Debateable. More people may swim on occasion, but how many people go swimming every day? Many motorcyclists ride every day.

[dipshit]

And:

http://www.acc.co.nz/injury-prevention/road-safety/WCM001268

Intersection crashes which usually involves the motorcyclist with legal right of way hitting a vehicle. In many cases the drivers defence is claiming not to have seen the motorcyclist.

And why quote just half of it? This is what it says...

"Statistics indicate that the two most common crash situations involving motorcyclists are:

• Intersection crashes which usually involves the motorcyclist with legal right of way hitting a vehicle. In many cases the drivers defence is claiming not to have seen the motorcyclist.

• Single vehicle crashes where a motorcyclist loses control and runs of the road."


Keep in mind that intersection crashes with cars in built-up areas tend to result in minor injuries.

Single vehicle crashers tend to happen on the open road at higher speeds and result in more major injuries and fatales.

This is largely why it is rider error in 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents.

[JMemonic]

Which Stuff is reporting as:

Middle-aged men dominated motorcycle crash figures with eight deaths in 2008 compared with three the previous year.

"Middle-aged men are rediscovering their youth on a powerful bike. It reflects a trend around the rest of the world," he said.

"Often they are inexperienced riders on a new high-powered motorcycle," Erasmus said.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4807154a11.html



Bugger that they dont mention that 4 of those were one accident where the camper crossed the centre line, and 3 from the last crash here that makes 7 of the 8 of which 5 were caused by fatigue so I am just guessing as I cant find the details another vehicle was involved in the other fatality as it difficult to as a deceased rider if they were tired.

[tri boy]

and the deaths continue........
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4807581a19715.html

[piston broke]

His claim has a bit more basis than your one you just made up...
http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf[/QUOTE]

so,if i read this right,bikes make up 10% of deaths,
and 8% of road users.
so when you consider how much less protection we have.are we really over represented in fatalities?

but yes it isn't good to see a rising trend.

[dipshit]

so,if i read this right,bikes make up 10% of deaths,and 8% of road users.

No, motorcyclists make up 10% of the deaths and 8% of all injuries, yet we only make up the 2% of road users.

Edit; And on warm sunny summer weekends, motorcyclists quite often make close to 50% of the road fatalities for the weekend. (or public holiday weekends)

[toycollector10]

Surfcaster on the rocks with his back to the waves: $40 instant fine!

Ten year old out of their depth not displaying FWF (five widths freestyle sticker): $50 instant fine!

Caught on the water without a life jacket: $100 instant fine.

Floating on Lake Wakatipu on a Warehouse inflatable with only beer bottles as additional floatation aids: $200 instant fine!

River rafting with a Warehouse inflatable aeroplane: $300 instant fine!

I get it, idiots on/in the water die too. I see an opening here for the fun police and a great revenue stream for the gumm'int.

[devnull]

And why quote just half of it? This is what it says...

"Statistics indicate that the two most common crash situations involving motorcyclists are:

• Intersection crashes which usually involves the motorcyclist with legal right of way hitting a vehicle. In many cases the drivers defence is claiming not to have seen the motorcyclist.

• Single vehicle crashes where a motorcyclist loses control and runs of the road."


Keep in mind that intersection crashes with cars in built-up areas tend to result in minor injuries.

Single vehicle crashers tend to happen on the open road at higher speeds and result in more major injuries and fatales.

This is largely why it is rider error in 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents.

I'll be sure to remember that, though I wish you'd tell the rest of the population. I've seen enough deaths at intersections - guess different people place different meanings on the word "minor"

When I was an ambo, I seemed to be attending a lot of RTC's (road traffic crash - it isn't an accident) involving bikes being hit by cars....

That crash research site was Australian - looks like NZ must have absolute angels in cages compared to other countries, always giving way at intersections, being attentive to traffic & conditions...

Sorry Tank - the cage that hit you while stopped must've been an Aussie tourist - Kiwis don't drive like that :jerry:

[scumdog]

Surfcaster on the rocks with his back to the waves: $40 instant fine!

Ten year old out of their depth not displaying FWF (five widths freestyle sticker): $50 instant fine!

Caught on the water without a life jacket: $100 instant fine.

Floating on Lake Wakatipu on a Warehouse inflatable with only beer bottles as additional floatation aids: $200 instant fine!

River rafting with a Warehouse inflatable aeroplane: $300 instant fine!

I get it, idiots on/in the water die too. I see an opening here for the fun police and a great revenue stream for the gumm'int.

bugger them all, let 'em sink, save $$$$$$

[scumdog]

I
When I was an ambo, I seemed to be attending a lot of RTC's (road traffic crash - it isn't an accident) involving bikes being hit by cars....

But who was at fault in these cases??

[Jantar]

No, motorcyclists make up 10% of the deaths and 8% of all injuries, yet we only make up the 2% of road users.

Edit; And on warm sunny summer weekends, motorcyclists quite often make close to 50% of the road fatalities for the weekend. (or public holiday weekends)

I think you need to read that report again.

The very first paragraph in the report

In 2007, 41 motorcyclists1 were killed and a further 1,336 were injured in road crashes. This was ten percent of all deaths and eight percent of all reported injuries on our roads.

The last sentence in the paragraph imediately following the death and injury graph on page 1.

Motorcyclists now make up only eight percent of all road users injured, compared to 21 percent in the early and mid-1980s.

So motorcyclists do make up 8% of all road users, and suffer 8% of all injuries. Seems pretty consistent to me.

Let's just take a deep breath for minute. We are all on the same side here, ie we want to reduce motorcyle accidents. So how about we focus on the causes of those accidents, and see what each individual rider can do to reduce them.

The stats are quite conclusive that in single vehicle accidents, the rider is almost always to blame. So maybe this is the area where we need to focus the most with better training.

The stats also show that in multi vehicle accidents, it is usually the other driver to blame. This may be the area where riding experience can be more productive than simple rider training. Let us also not lose sight of the fact that we can also benefit by learning from other riders mistakes. This can only happen if those mistakes are discussed in an open manner without assigning blame, but rather just looking at causes.

In aviation, there is a reporting system in place where pilots can report incidents, whether or not there is an accident, and lessons can be learnt and recomendations made. But no repercussions are ever dealt out. It is more important that pilots can feel that they can pass on their experiences without fear of penalty.

Maybe, as motorcyclists, we should be trying to achieve the same. Encourage discussion of incidents without sermons, blame or ridicule. By encouraging such discussion we may be able to achieve a positive outcome.

[Katman]

So motorcyclists do make up 8% of all road users, and suffer 8% of all injuries. Seems pretty consistent to me.



Comprehension's not your strong point, is it?

The report says we make up 8% of all road users injured.

It doesn't say we make up 8% of all road users.

[Jantar]

You are right. The actual percentage is much higher.

From http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/LICENCE2006.pdf

As at July 2006, The number of class 1 licence holders is 3004196 and class 6 licence holders number 476474. That is 13.6%

However once again we aren't given all the statistics. Many licence holders have both class of licence. Some who have both seldom ride a bike and others seldom drive a car. They don't break the statistics down far enough to give an accurate picture.

[Katman]

From http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

As at July 2006, The number of class 1 licence holders is 3004196 and class 6 licence holders number 476474. That is 13.6%



Reading obviously isn't my strong point.

Care to point out where they give those figures in that link?

[Jantar]

Page 3 on that section, or page 173 of the entire document.

[MarkH]

Is anyone here capable of putting together statistically valid results (i.e. those that actually demonstrate significance in their results).

I'm curious to see the following correlations:
* injuries per 10,000 motorcycles/annum
* deaths per 10,000 motorcycles/annum
* injuries per 10,000 bicycles/annum
* deaths per 10,000 bicycles/annum

I want what I can't have:
* injuries per million kms travelled
* deaths per million kms travelled
and I want these figures for cars, bicycles and motorcycles - also broken down by gender/age/experience.

I am also curious about deaths per million hours of riding vs deaths per million hours swimming/rugby/horse riding/etc.
As interesting as the statistics we have available are - I prefer to take them with a grain of salt. They are very incomplete and provide only some of the necessary information to make any real conclussions about anything.

Even looking at deaths vs number of registered vehicles is of limited value. If a person owns a bike and a car and drives the car to work 80% of the time, then the petrol price goes up and he starts riding the bike to work 80% of the time - risks change, but the stats wont reflect that fact!

So, please everyone - don't make out like the statistics prove anything!

[Katman]

Page 3 on that section,

Really? :blink:

Fucked if I can see them.

[Katman]

So, please everyone - don't make out like the statistics prove anything!

Tell that to the people who will happily use those same statistics to legislate against us.

[dipshit]

However once again we aren't given all the statistics. Many licence holders have both class of licence. Some who have both seldom ride a bike and others seldom drive a car.

Current vehicle registrations would be a better indication of what's on our roads than licence classes.

http://www.acc.co.nz/injury-prevention/road-safety/WCM001268

"Motorcycles make up 2% of the vehicles on NZ roads but are seven times more likely to be injured than other road users and account for 17% of road-related injury costs to ACC.
• The rate of motorcycle crashes is ten times higher than their proportion of the New Zealand motor vehicle fleet.
• An Australian study indicated that motorcyclists are 19 times more likely to have a fatal crash per kilometre travelled than other road users. (Nairn, 1993)."

[FJRider]

You are right. The actual percentage is much higher.

From http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

As at July 2006, The number of class 1 licence holders is 3004196 and class 6 licence holders number 476474. That is 13.6%

However once again we aren't given all the statistics. Many licence holders have both class of licence. Some who have both seldom ride a bike and others seldom drive a car. They don't break the statistics down far enough to give an accurate picture.

Having the words "statistics" and "accurate", in the same sentance, is a contradiction in terms... be wary of quoting staistics to prove(disprove) a point...

[98tls]

I want what I can't have:
* injuries per million kms travelled
* deaths per million kms travelled
and I want these figures for cars, bicycles and motorcycles - also broken down by gender/age/experience.

I am also curious about deaths per million hours of riding vs deaths per million hours swimming/rugby/horse riding/etc.
As interesting as the statistics we have available are - I prefer to take them with a grain of salt. They are very incomplete and provide only some of the necessary information to make any real conclussions about anything.

Even looking at deaths vs number of registered vehicles is of limited value. If a person owns a bike and a car and drives the car to work 80% of the time, then the petrol price goes up and he starts riding the bike to work 80% of the time - risks change, but the stats wont reflect that fact!

So, please everyone - don't make out like the statistics prove anything! Agreed,stats are about as pointless as trying to make motorcycling safer through endless threads on why/how/blah blah blah.Bikes are in the great scheme of things a risky way to get around,people on bikes will die prematurely just as many do doing just about anything you care to mention,it really is that simple.

[Ocean1]

Maybe, as motorcyclists, we should be trying to achieve the same. Encourage discussion of incidents without sermons, blame or ridicule. By encouraging such discussion we may be able to achieve a positive outcome.

HELL YES.

I understood that to be part of the rational behind the rules pertaining to "rider down" threads.

That, and common decency.

[dipshit]

I want what I can't have:
* injuries per million kms travelled
* deaths per million kms travelled
and I want these figures for cars, bicycles and motorcycles - also broken down by gender/age/experience.

Don't go there. Bikes that are treated like play things and only get taken out on sunny weekends for a hoon aren't going to look good for kms travelled vs accident.

[Jantar]

Really? :blink:

Fucked if I can see them.

OOps. Sorry, Cut and paste wrong link. :o Try http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/LICENCE2006.pdf

Original post corrected as well.

[FJRider]

Current vehicle registrations would be a better indication of what's on our roads than licence classes.



better but still not accurate... those are the one's that have paid. What percentage have not paid their bills... but still on the road. A larger percentage than gets mentioned...

[FJRider]

Don't go there. Bikes that are treated like play things and only get taken out on sunny weekends for a hoon aren't going to look good for kms travelled vs accident.

Like the ten year old Harleys... with 3000 km's on the clock...:doh:

[Jantar]

Current vehicle registrations would be a better indication of what's on our roads than licence classes.

http://www.acc.co.nz/injury-prevention/road-safety/WCM001268

"Motorcycles make up 2% of the vehicles on NZ roads but are seven times more likely to be injured than other road users and account for 17% of road-related injury costs to ACC.
....."

Interesting! According to http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/statistics/motor-vehicle-registration/2007/table-29.html (correct link this time) In 2007 there were 18769 motorcycles and mopeds out of a total vehicle fleet of 267043. That is over 7% of the total registered vehicle fleet. This number does not include unregistered motorcycles such as dirt bikes, farm bikes etc.

[MadDuck]

Like the ten year old Harleys... with 3000 km's on the clock...:doh:

Dont know of many of those myself.... :laugh:

[98tls]

Dont know of many of those myself.... :laugh: Fwiw came across an interesting article the other day,Harley are offering a minimum trade in price when guys buy a Sportster in the States in order to help out with the recession (thats what they said anyway)other models are not affected by the same deplorable resale value so they say,i kind of agree as when a mate bought a new Harley last year what they offered him for his old sporty (immaculate) was insulting hence he still has it in the garage.

[dipshit]

Bikes are in the great scheme of things a risky way to get around,people on bikes will die prematurely just as many do doing just about anything you care to mention,it really is that simple.


But then you are a bit of an old-school chap... :oi-grr:

:Pokey:

[Ixion]

Go here (http://www.mot.govt.nz/assets/Images/NewFolder-2/Copy-of-NZ-Vehicle-Fleet-Graphs-2007-v2.xls)if you want raw data about the vehicle fleet

[98tls]

But then you are a bit of an old-school chap... :oi-grr: And still here mate,38 or so bikes later,actually about the same in years since my first.In that amount of years riding ive listened to/read blah blah more than i can remember based around making bikes/riders safer,all good stuff and well meant im sure but as worthwhile as a 3rd ball on a greyhound.If someone doesnt want to get hurt on a bike then dont ride em,you can toddle along if that makes you feel safer but it wont protect you from the stupidity of other road users,you can get older n wiser and pick the places to have fun more wisely but as i found out last Woodstock trip that guarantees nothing either.Bikes are dangerous,doesnt take a genius to work that out,tragedies/stupidity will happen same applies.I enjoy riding to much to let what ifs bother me to much.

[MarkH]

Don't go there. Bikes that are treated like play things and only get taken out on sunny weekends for a hoon aren't going to look good for kms travelled vs accident.

Yeah, but then there is my scooter that has don over 10,000 in about 4 months, plenty of guys on KB go out in the weekends and ride 300 or 400 kms, after riding the same bike to and from work all week. I'd rather see the real stats then the twits using a little incomplete and misleading information to justify some stupid new law.

[Katman]

I'd rather see the real stats then the twits using a little incomplete and misleading information to justify some stupid new law.

I hate to break it to you but I actually don't think they will care what you'd rather see.

[Pixie]

Surfcaster on the rocks with his back to the waves: $40 instant fine!

Ten year old out of their depth not displaying FWF (five widths freestyle sticker): $50 instant fine!

Caught on the water without a life jacket: $100 instant fine.

Floating on Lake Wakatipu on a Warehouse inflatable with only beer bottles as additional floatation aids: $200 instant fine!

River rafting with a Warehouse inflatable aeroplane: $300 instant fine!

I get it, idiots on/in the water die too. I see an opening here for the fun police and a great revenue stream for the gumm'int.

But wait,there's more:

Visiting Micky Dee's: $100 fine

Failure to do 30 mins exercise per day: $150 fine

[MarkH]

I hate to break it to you but I actually don't think they will care what you'd rather see.

Of course not, they have their agendas and they can find the stats they like to justify whatever that decide they want to do.

[Winston001]

Of course not, they have their agendas and they can find the stats they like to justify whatever that decide they want to do.

What agenda? I'm curious.

[Ixion]

Putting motorbikes off the road. Nothing new about that.

[Kickaha]

Of course not, they have their agendas and they can find the stats they like to justify whatever that decide they want to do.

And some can present a good argument to disprove what they say

[riffer]

That's a bloody good article Warwick. Good find, and a credible source to boot.

Cheers

[98tls]

Anyone know if 4 wheeler accidents are still included in the stats?Never worked out how someone having an accident/death on something with 4 wheels got to be included with motorcycle stats myself.

[Jantar]

Yes, Quad bikes are included in the official stats providing the accident happens on the road.

ACC treats the stats differently. All bike, trike and quad accidents are included, on or off road. This explains why ACC and LTNZ stats never agree with each other.

[Ixion]

Charles Lamb. A noble name , and noble sentiments to match it. Well done, give that man an orang-utan.

I shall be contacting Mr Lamb.

And what is this Australasian Motorcycle Project, anyway ?

[98tls]

Yes, Quad bikes are included in the official stats providing the accident happens on the road.

ACC treats the stats differently. All bike, trike and quad accidents are included, on or off road. This explains why ACC and LTNZ stats never agree with each other. Cheers.I always agreed with off road bikes being included as they are after all motorcycles but struggle with 3 and 4 wheelers.

[Ixion]

In fact, Mr Lamb sounds like an all round good bastard



Charles Lamb is Senior Lecturer and Head of Marketing in the Commerce Division of Lincoln University, in Christchurch, New Zealand. He rebuilt his first motorcycle in 1969 (a 1941 Indian, which he still owns) and, while living in Invercargill, became quite close to Burt Munro. Recently, he founded PRISM (Promotion of Responsibility in Safe Motorcycling) in response to the renewed enthusiasm in NZ for motorcycling, and to help train both young and older people in riding for recreation and sport. At Lincoln University he has also established the AIMS (Australasian Institute for Motorcycle Studies) project, which is a developing research centre for all motorcycle related studies.



Anyone know the man ?


EDIT: Lincoln website says his current research includes research into wine consumption behaviour. I like the man moe and more. I think I want him to have my babies.

[Ixion]

Woohoo. Look where *that* led. We done got intellaletualamajicated (http://ijms.nova.edu/Fall2008/IJMS_Rvw.Alford.html)

[98tls]

In fact, Mr Lamb sounds like an all round good bastard

[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]


Anyone know the man ?
Motorcycle related studies/endless interweb threads;)is anyone actually riding bikes anymore?Probably to old fashioned.

[Ixion]

This is the dude.

I've SEEN this guy somewhere, in leathers.

[98tls]

This is the dude.

I've SEEN this guy somewhere, in leathers. Sick of riding the heights Ixion sunk to the depths in search of stimulation.

[Ocean1]

Woohoo. Look where *that* led. We done got intellaletualamajicated (http://ijms.nova.edu/Fall2008/IJMS_Rvw.Alford.html)

Oh, good score Ix.

I done TOLD you it was a conspiricy.

[miSTa]

This is the dude.

I've SEEN this guy somewhere, in leathers.
As you've already said Charlie is a lecturer at Lincoln Uni. Rides a yellow BMW R1200RS. He has done a fair bit of riding in the NI and been to Pukekohe a few times. Haven't seen him for a year or two now though so don't really know what he's been up to.

[DarkLord]

"The number of motorbikes on the road is increasing dramatically and riders are more seriously injured if they are in a crash because they have less protection than those in a car," Gilbert said.

No shit. Really?!?? :eek5:

These guys are geniuses.

[swbarnett]

I always agreed with off road bikes being included as they are after all motorcycles
Off road bikes maybe. Not off road accidents. These should never be used as a basis to change or justify laws that don't apply to them i.e. the ROAD rules. This is why they should never be included with accidents that actually happen on the road.