Bike crash statistic thread for '09

[arj127]

With all this bullshit about motorcyclists being the highest ACC claimers in the news lately, i think there should be a thread on kiwibiker for any known motorcycle injuries in 2009 since they won't give us the full statistics. We don't need names, just a date and cause of crash wether it be rider error or genuine accident.

If we can keep a note of the accidents and how they were caused we would have a better idea of who is actually at fault. Keeping track of the dirt riding/ farm bike community would be impossible, but i'm sure they are being included into the statistics.

How can we do this???

[AD345]

You mean something like this? (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/motorycycle-casualty-2003.pdf)

[arj127]

Well, sort off.

I'd like to see a post on here with all known crash injuries/fatals and a small description of fault/error.

Such as:

10/1/0- Road user, caused by car u-turn - injury
11/1/0- Farmbike, pilot error quad rolled - fatal

I think we should try and get the true stats ourselves since they wont give them to us.

On the PDF you provided, how many of the deaths were related to say motocross or farmbikes?? Or is it genuinely only road usage.

With all the rider down posts on here i think we can collect enough info for one year and put it in one post to get an idea of what the percentages really are.

I'm going to be really pissed off if ACC put more levy on my bike rego, i'm paying far to much allready with having to reg my car and bike, and can only use one at any given time.

[riffer]

I can tell you right now dude, from over five years' experience on this site.

The vast majority of rider down threads are due to rider error.

[Quasievil]

If half the Riders on this site stopped using the roads as their personal fucking racing track then the rider fatalities and injuries would drop like a stone particulary around the coro loop.

Riders should stop looking for excuses and look at themselves.

[arj127]

The vast majority of rider down threads are due to rider error.

And what i'm saying is, lets find out.

The posts where the rider was at error on here always seem to stand out the most, but i do remember others, such as the gokart vs ducati incident.

If we are going to try and stop these ACC pricks from hiking our rego's up again then when need valid statistics. Not statistics that include off road riding injuries, farm bike injuries, or four wheeled vehicles taking us out.

[Marmoot]

The primary cause for crashes is speed. Standstill items don't crash.
No matter how slow you are, if you're moving you can crash.

That saying, ACC levy WILL go up regardless of how many people crashing, if the government needs the levy to go up.

Statistics. BAH! Look at the numbers from different angle and you'll always get a different results.

For a start, I would like to get what those responsible for the 4 billion dollar hole in the ACC have to say. Where are they?

[Ixion]

The primary cause for crashes is speed. Standstill items don't crash.
..
Mr Dodgyiti might disagree with that.

[Marmoot]

Mr Dodgyiti might disagree with that.

downward velocity still qualifies as "speed", Mr. Ixion.

[mashman]

The primary cause for crashes is speed. Standstill items don't crash.


but they do get crashed into!!! still a crash no???

[Titanium]

I can tell you right now dude, from over five years' experience on this site.

The vast majority of rider down threads are due to rider error.

Yup cause they all brag about it when they get back on the keyboard ......

[Quasievil]

Yup cause they all brag about it when they get back on the keyboard ......

Assuming they make it back to the keyboard.

and the primary cause for crashes is not speed its stupidity often on the bikers part.

[riffer]

Assuming they make it back to the keyboard.

and the primary cause for crashes is not speed its stupidity often on the bikers part.

But WHY?


Is it just what humans do? If it is, then we're screwed. It's never going to change... :(

[Katman]

It is so pathetically shortsighted to look at accidents with the blinkered view of 'who's at fault'.

Accidents should be looked at with the attitude - 'what could I have done to avoid it?'

[FJRider]

With all this bullshit about motorcyclists being the highest ACC claimers in the news lately, i think there should be a thread on kiwibiker for any known motorcycle injuries in 2009 since they won't give us the full statistics. We don't need names, just a date and cause of crash wether it be rider error or genuine accident.

If we can keep a note of the accidents and how they were caused we would have a better idea of who is actually at fault. Keeping track of the dirt riding/ farm bike community would be impossible, but i'm sure they are being included into the statistics.

How can we do this???

You can't... You would need access to ACC files to compile a full list of claimants. ACC policy prohibits disclosure of that information... for privacy reasons. NO fault insurance means fault does not affect claims and thus not recorded.
Best bet is to contact department of statistics, they may have the data you require/ask of ...

[Ixion]

and the primary cause for crashes is not speed its stupidity often on the bikers part.

The tragic crash at Akaroa is a good example.

In what way could "speed" be said to be responsible?

Or, any lack of skill on the part of any of the riders? They may or may not have been proficient, but neither lack of technical skill, nor speed caused that crash . Going slower would not have helped, and what skill is involved in overtaking a stream of cars. The crash was simply the result of either arrant stupidity or great misfortune (I do not know the area so I forbear to judge, though I suspect that I know which it was) . 'Skill' doesn't compensate for stupid, nor does slow.

[arj127]

If theres fifty motorcycle fatals in a year and 75% of them were caused by cars not seeing the motorcycle, why the fuck should motorcycle ACC levies go up????

[mashman]

It is so pathetically shortsighted to look at accidents with the blinkered view of 'who's at fault'.

Accidents should be looked at with the attitude 'what could I have done to avoid it'.

Whilst I fundamentally agree, you can't have one without the other. You have a crash... what caused it wll generally accompany who was at fault as part of the analysis... I did this analysis in the UK years ago as I was privvy to the DVLA, Police and Insurance company data... You can draw certain conclusions, but the problem was incomplete data. Too many variants of "crashed" skewed the data and a cleanse would just skew it even more... Garbage in Garbage Out!!!

[Titanium]

It is so pathetically shortsighted to look at accidents with the blinkered view of 'who's at fault'.

Accidents should be looked at with the attitude - 'what could I have done to avoid it?'

That is where industry has been forced to go ....... for every 30,000 near misses there is 1 death .....

[Katman]

If theres fifty motorcycle fatals in a year and 75% of them were caused by cars not seeing the motorcycle, why the fuck should motorcycle ACC levies go up????

What fucking planet are you on?

[arj127]

What fucking planet are you on?

Same one as you. I don't think you get the point of my post

[Nasty]

With all this bullshit about motorcyclists being the highest ACC claimers in the news lately, i think there should be a thread on kiwibiker for any known motorcycle injuries in 2009 since they won't give us the full statistics. We don't need names, just a date and cause of crash wether it be rider error or genuine accident.

If we can keep a note of the accidents and how they were caused we would have a better idea of who is actually at fault. Keeping track of the dirt riding/ farm bike community would be impossible, but i'm sure they are being included into the statistics.

How can we do this???

You can not get statistics off this site ... you can not collect validated information in a way that is statistically safe as you can not verify the information ... and that is just starters on your idea. Sorry to burst your bubble but life really don't work like that.

[Katman]

Same one as you. I don't think you get the point of my post

If you are even suggesting that of 50 motorcycle fatalities there's the slightest chance that car drivers are responsible for 38 of them then you're certainly not on the same planet as me.

[arj127]

So your happy to have an increased ACC levy nowing that a lot of the crashes are not always rider error.

[FJRider]

If theres fifty motorcycle fatals in a year and 75% of them were caused by cars not seeing the motorcycle, why the fuck should motorcycle ACC levies go up????

Because they are motorcycle accidents...simple eh!!!

[arj127]

If you are even suggesting that of 50 motorcycle fatalities there's the slightest chance that car drivers are responsible for 38 of them then you're certainly not on the same planet as me.

So what do you think the variables are then? That is what i would like to know. That is what ACC are not telling us.

I know of many riders that have been cleaned out by turning cars. One purchased my previous bike after only having hers for eight weeks

[Katman]

So your happy to have an increased ACC levy nowing that a lot of the crashes are not always rider error.

Fuck me!

:brick:

[mashman]

it's not crashes you should be looking at, it's incidents where there have been ACC claims involving motorcycles... but you'll still have to compare that to the incidents where ACC claims where made involving cars to get the sort of information you're after...

[Katman]

I know of many riders that have been cleaned out by turning cars.

Don't give me the shit that none of them were speeding or that there was nothing that they could have done to avoid the situation.

[Ixion]

To assign responsibility for a crash is often far more complex than it seems.

take Ms Natalie Noobie, f'instance. Tootling along on her GN250. It's a wet day, but she's going well. Then a car shoots through a red light directly in front of her. Natalie grabs the brakes (she's been driving cages for years, without mishap, BTW). And makes a commendable effort of slowing down, to the point that she avoids hitting the car, which shoots off into the distance. Unfortunately Natalie then rides over a painted white line on the road. Very slippery. The front wheel locks and turns in , and Natalie goes down.

Now , what caused that crash? It will be recorded as a single vehicle crash, with Natalie to blame. (Because, there IS no other vehicle involved).

So, what was the cause? Is there a single cause? Legally the car that shot the red light has no responsibility at all. But if he hadn't Natalie would not have crashed. But, maybe she wouldn't have crashed if the darn white paint wasn't so slippery. Or, if Natalie had a bit more experience , to control that lock up , or not rely on braking in the first place. Of course, if Natalie had been riding a BMW with ABS brakes she'd probably have been fine also. Or, again, if Natalie had more experience, her spidey sense might have whispered not to trust in that green light. Or, if Natalie had never learned to drive a cage she might have swerved behind the car instead of panic braking.

So, who do we blame? The car driver? The road designer who put that white paint there? Natalie? Inexperience? Vehicle design? The weather gods? Change any one of those things, and there would be no crash

(Oh, and by the way, Natalie died. The crash was nothing, only about 20kph. But the truck that was tailgating her couldn't stop and ran over her. The driver denied following too closely and said that he was blameless, she just fell under his wheels. So , whose fault ? )

EDIT : Oh, and someone has pointed out that Natalie was going 60kph in a 50 zone at the time. So it's all down to speeding, eh?

[Katman]

The tragic crash at Akaroa is a good example.

In what way could "speed" be said to be responsible?



What about the speed that the rider was overtaking the line of cars at?

And it's probably not wise quoting Dodgyiti's mishap when it was directly caused by a motorcyclist riding like a fuckwit.

(Not Dodgyiti if anyone's wondering).

[arj127]

Why cant they just put the levy on the fuel, then anyone using it has made a contribution

[Mom]

Don't give me the shit that none of them were speeding or that there was nothing that they could have done to avoid the situation.

Fair call, but...

not all of them were speeding, and not all of them could have avoided what happened either. Sure bikers make mistakes on the road, so do car drivers. Sure there are dick head bike riders out there that have bigger balls than brains, the same applies to car drivers too.

Rider error/stupidity,driver error/stupidity, speed, poorly maintained vehicles, roads, poor design of roads etc are all reasons people lose their lives on the road. Sadly they take other innocent lives at the same time.

There are times shit simply happens to you.

[scumdog]

If half the Riders on this site stopped using the roads as their personal fucking racing track then the rider fatalities and injuries would drop like a stone particulary around the coro loop.

Riders should stop looking for excuses and look at themselves.

But that is not the KB way - blaming 'cagers' and bad roads is the KB way...

[mashman]

Natalie may have been lying and there was no car!!! If you want to find a cause you need to apportion blame... that's the nature of the insurance industry... someone has to pay and you're encouraged not to admit that it was your fault even when you know it was... that's the reason it's so complex when assigning blame for an incident... people lie!!!

Now if we could have the death penalty and a polygraph test you may find that people wouldn't lie about the crash, ACC levy's would be assigned correctly... politicians would become honest etc... Utopia!!!

Therefore i'd like to stand at the next byelection under the banner of "You Lie You Die"

[pzkpfw]

But that is not the KB way - blaming 'cagers' and bad roads is the KB way...

...and cops. We blame cops too.

[Ocean1]

But WHY?

Is it just what humans do? If it is, then we're screwed. It's never going to change... :(

Why is that so hard to believe? It's how we're built, and no law or outside opinion is likely to change an individual's hard-wired behavioural motivators.

And making laws that attempt to quantify such behaviour demonstrates another general anthropological observation: Laws are formed by a majority, as a means of controlling a perceived threat represented by a minority.

There's no justice here, it's a genuine witch hunt.

The fact that the witches are real is irrelevant.

[Katman]

Why cant they just put the levy on the fuel, then anyone using it has made a contribution

Fuck that. I haven't lodged any claim with ACC for over 20 years. Why should I pay for all the other fuckwits?

[Mom]

The tragic crash at Akaroa is a good example.

In what way could "speed" be said to be responsible?



I believe Katman is about to explain that as he was there, has taken all witness statements, infact talked to the riders of all the bikes involved, he will have the speed calculated from measurements he took at the scene. In fact Katman is about to eclipse the SCU here. Bet he will even be able to say if any of those involved had been drinking or not!

[scumdog]

The tragic crash at Akaroa is a good example.

In what way could "speed" be said to be responsible?

Or, any lack of skill on the part of any of the riders? They may or may not have been proficient, but neither lack of technical skill, nor speed caused that crash . Going slower would not have helped, and what skill is involved in overtaking a stream of cars. The crash was simply the result of either arrant stupidity or great misfortune (I do not know the area so I forbear to judge, though I suspect that I know which it was) . 'Skill' doesn't compensate for stupid, nor does slow.


Jeez Ixion, words fail me.:wacko:

It's a troll, right? right?....:pinch:

[arj127]

Fuck that. I haven't lodged any claim with ACC for over 20 years. Why should I pay for all the other fuckwits?

You are paying for them now. If your neighbour goes for a trail ride tomorrow and breaks his leg, ACC pays. Where did they get that money from. Not him, his bike isn't registered.

If its on the fuel, any one using has paid ACC. Even the dude cutting a tree at home who accidentally cuts his arm.

[Katman]

If its on the fuel, any one using has paid ACC. Even the dude cutting a tree at home who accidentally cuts his arm.

Fuck that. It should be user pays.

[mashman]

You are paying for them now. If your neighbour goes for a trail ride tomorrow and breaks his leg, ACC pays. Where did they get that money from. Not him, his bike isn't registered.

If its on the fuel, any one using has paid ACC. Even the dude cutting a tree at home who accidentally cuts his arm.

People fall off ladders every day and claim ACC and there isn't a vehicle in sight!!! ACC is ACC... there's no magic bullet for this one short of removing ACC and sticking 2 fingers up to the general public!!!

[arj127]

Either way it will be.

[Mom]

Jeez Ixion, words fail me.:wacko:

It's a troll, right? right?....:pinch:

How do we know what speed was involved? Apart from the media reports what have I got to form an opinion with? I have read a few things but I was not there. All I have to go on here is news reports of what has happened. I have a very strongly formed opinion of what I think happened, you would have to have rocks for brains if you can not work out for yourself how this crash happened.

One biker was killed, his pillion very badly injured, another rider also injured, they were travelling along minding their own business. Another biker and his pillion were killed as well. Fairly certain this pillion was not in any way responsible for what happened. Not rocket science eh?

Terrible thing to happen, tragic for the family and friends of all of the people that died.

[Katman]

I believe Katman is about to explain that as he was there, has taken all witness statements, infact talked to the riders of all the bikes involved, he will have the speed calculated from measurements he took at the scene. In fact Katman is about to eclipse the SCU here. Bet he will even be able to say if any of those involved had been drinking or not!


I have a very strongly formed opinion of what I think happened, you would have to have rocks for brains if you can not work out for yourself how this crash happened.



See the difference is, I have the balls to say it.

[AllanB]

Ah ACC

Try this one then, it will get some of you going......:niceone:

No ACC payout on motorcycle injuries if you do not have suitable safety gear on - gloves, full length trousers, footwear etc.

So if you ride wearing jandals, shorts & a singlet, plus helmet of course to make it legal :bleh: and come off, then ACC will not pay for stitching your feet back together after the jandals split them in two, or pay for your skin grafts on knees, legs, elbows, or pay for rebuilding you fingers with what's left of your toes.

User pays - you'd lose your house paying for the above. Would not worry me as I always wear the correct gear, it's bad enough grazing your hand on concrete let alone sliding down the road at 100kms per.

Just a thought for discussion. :argue:

[Mom]

See the difference is, I have the balls to say it.

But I am a girl.... I dont have balls :Pokey:

The difference is, I chose my time and place mate, timing being the key here :done:

[Katman]

But I am a girl.... I dont have balls :Pokey:

The difference is, I chose my time and place mate, timing being the key here :done:

Spoken like a true lightweight.

[AllanB]

But I am a girl.... I dont have balls :Pokey:

The difference is, I chose my time and place mate, timing being the key here :done:


And we wait for the numerous offers of 'balls' for her to play with.......:devil2:

[Ixion]

What about the speed that the rider was overtaking the line of cars at?

And it's probably not wise quoting Dodgyiti's mishap when it was directly caused by a motorcyclist riding like a fuckwit.

(Not Dodgyiti if anyone's wondering).

I have no information at all about what speed the overtaking rider was doing. Nor, I suspect, have you. I have not seen any mention in the press that he was going noticeably fast. Indeed , ironically, if he HAD overtaken at warp speed the accident might not have happened. But that sort of crash could happen at 80kph. Or 100kph. Or 120 kph. Or 200 kph. Try riding a motorbike, two up, directly into a group of other motorcycles at ANY of those speeds, and see what happens.

And although the initator of the chain of events in Mr D's case was a crashed motorcyclist (I have no information as to how he was riding) it could have been anything at all that caused the boat tower to take violent evasive action (credit to him that he did, BTW).

[FJRider]

Why cant they just put the levy on the fuel, then anyone using it has made a contribution

They already do... its called GST. Common name... TAX... you buy it, you pay it, plus the associated duties that is collected off fuel...

[AllanB]

A visit to the 'Akaroa' (really Taitapu) site this morning quickly cleared up exactly what went wrong there.:weep::weep::weep::weep::weep:

[arj127]

Well lets hope they don't get to out of hand when they raise the motorcycle rego next time

[McJim]

At the end of the day 'they' are the gubbermint and will do exactly as they please regardless of trends or public opinion.

I must confess I have seen more risky overtaking here than in blighty though - I would suggest it's kiwis as a group that are at fault rather than just motorcyclists. I have had to brake and come to a complete stop on more than one occasion to allow an oncoming vehicle to complete their ill-thought maneouvre.

There are 2 problems here caused by the New Zealand penchant for thinking they are all racers.

1/ The guy in front is travelling at 98kph - I must get past him so I can travel at 110kph
2/ Hey, I'm doing 100kph and that guy is overtaking me - I must squeeze the gas and show him who is boss.

the combination of these two trains of thought will make someone overtake when there is just enough room to complete it and this will decrease to zero when the other train of thought increases the velocity of the car being overtaken thus eliminating any possibility of the safe completion of the maneouvre.

I have witnessed this so many times - New Zealanders are such lovely people until they get their grubby hands on an internal combustion engine then they turn into homicidal fuckwits.

Please mend thy ways - I always get called a nana - and I'm fucken proud to wear that badge.

[AllanB]

There are 2 problems here caused by the New Zealand penchant for thinking they are all racers.

1/ The guy in front is travelling at 98kph - I must get past him so I can travel at 110kph
2/ Hey, I'm doing 100kph and that guy is overtaking me - I must squeeze the gas and show him who is boss.

Mate, that's part of the written test when you do go for your license, and you answered both correctly :rolleyes:

I'm afraid I'm guilty of number one on the bike many times.........


I was talking to someone down from Auckland over Xmas - apparently North Islanders are much more courteous drivers than us Southern chaps.

[Mom]

Spoken like a true lightweight.

Yeah well what can I say to that..."I own my weight" is best I can offer, sometimes I choose to be silent, but there are times I will voice my opinion very loudly. Look put it this way, I had a friend die as the result of a motorcycle crash not that long ago. It was rider error, sad but true, he fucked up and paid with his life. Talk to me about him and I will tell you he fucked up, the crash was his fault.

He is not the first friend that I have lost as a result of riding on two wheels. My first was 29 years ago this coming January 20th. I will never forget. He was young, and such a fantastic young man, he fucked up by cutting a corner and met a car head on. He collected another friend of mine on her way to work. One dead friend, one injured friend (who has had to live with him smashing through her windscreen eveyday since then) and the rest of us that were left behind. I sold him his bike...

EDIT: He was a dickhead! He killed himself cutting a corner, he hurt a friend of mine, she needed plastic surgery for the damage to her face. He left behind a heap of grieving people. He threw away his life potential! He was dick!

[FJRider]

And take little notice of statistics, they can prove whatever you want them to prove...

[GTRMAN]

A couple of points regarding the whole ACC thing that I hope we can agree on.

- When riding a motorcycle the human body is far more likely to be damaged as the result of an 'incident' (define this as you wish, your fault, my fault, act of God etc)

- Whether the cause of the 'incident' is rider error or external input the result is the same.

- As a road user group, motorcyclists are statistically over represented in the amount of ACC claims as opposed to other road user groups.

- Under a user pays system, a group that consumes more, pays more. This is true across the board, that is why the ACC levy on an office worker is less than that of a high rise window cleaner, a simple effect of the risk assesment.


So where to from here?

In my opinion, as a road user group we need to stop acting like idiots with a death wish on the roads. I don't mean to upset all the safe riders out there but in this case the behaviour of the few will affect the experience of the many. One thing that doesn't sit well with most of us is the concept of personal responsibility but that is exactly what we need, want to pay less on your ACC in your rego? then do everything in your power to ensure that you and everyone you ride with rides defensively at all times. If we can make sure that we are doing all WE can to ensure that we are safe on the roads, then and only then do we have the moral authority to petition the government to better train the cagers in situational awareness.

Just my thoughts

[gunrunner]

If half the Riders on this site stopped using the roads as their personal fucking racing track then the rider fatalities and injuries would drop like a stone particulary around the coro loop.

Riders should stop looking for excuses and look at themselves.

On saturday i went for a ride around Lake Wairarapa and just after i saw a group of 3 fellow bikers going the other way towards featherston i came round a corner to see a blue 90s falcon on my side of the road W.T.F got on the grass gave him the finger and he thort it was funny , thort against turning and chasing cause of what was the point so next corner well fuck me a subaru in the middle of the road with a jetski on the back .
So my question is if i was involved in a accident in any of those 2 with every thing else in the media of course it would of been my fault . LIKE FUCK IT WOULD OF . But that comes about by what they see on the opening road us weaving in and out of traffic we do it cos we can but then again we are not stupid we all know what we are doing , but it seems to go against us. :argh:

[Mom]

... i came round a corner to see a blue 90s falcon on my side of the road W.T.F got on the grass gave him the finger and he thort it was funny....next corner well fuck me a subaru in the middle of the road with a jetski on the back .

So my question is if i was involved in a accident in any of those 2 with every thing else in the media of course it would of been my fault . LIKE FUCK IT WOULD OF...

I agree with you, but sadly if you did come to grief, you will be counted as another motorcycle injury statistic and therein lies the problem. Currently we are all being tarred, penalised and about to be taxed to hell for the fact that we are vulnerable on the road.

[scumdog]

There are 2 problems here caused by the New Zealand penchant for thinking they are all racers.

1/ The guy in front is travelling at 98kph - I must get past him so I can travel at 110kph
2/ Hey, I'm doing 100kph and that guy is overtaking me - I must squeeze the gas and show him who is boss.

the combination of these two trains of thought will make someone overtake when there is just enough room to complete it and this will decrease to zero when the other train of thought increases the velocity of the car being overtaken thus eliminating any possibility of the safe completion of the maneouvre.

I have witnessed this so many times - New Zealanders are such lovely people until they get their grubby hands on an internal combustion engine then they turn into homicidal fuckwits.

Please mend thy ways - I always get called a nana - and I'm fucken proud to wear that badge.

I'm with him, to often I've seen biker execute a dodgy overtaking maneouvre when in fact overtaking was probably not really needed - definitely not at the time they chose to overtake.

Some wouldn't be safe on a Raliegh 20 with no pedals.

[FJRider]

- As a road user group, motorcyclists are statistically over represented in the amount of ACC claims as opposed to other road user groups.



Motorcycle accidents are those involving a motorcycle. Road legal or not. ON the road or not. Four wheels or less. Perhaps if those that ride motorcycles, that are not currently required to pay ACC levies (as such) DO...Fees may remain as they are. Perhaps registration only (no WOF needed) for all motorcycles that will never go on the road.

[Motu]

Perhaps registration only (no WOF needed) for all motorcycles that will never go on the road.

That's how it used to be,before they went to the current continuous registration.ALL motorcycles were registered and had a plate allocated.My Rickman Metisse was a motocross bike,and had never been used on the road - I put it on the road using the original plate.Many years ago I saw a list of ACC payouts for a 6 month period (was in a local Taranaki rag) and motorcycles were well down on the list (early '90's)....and off road motorcycle accidents were listed separately.That may have changed too.

[Winston001]

A couple of points regarding the whole ACC thing that I hope we can agree on.

- When riding a motorcycle the human body is far more likely to be damaged as the result of an 'incident' (define this as you wish, your fault, my fault, act of God etc)

- Whether the cause of the 'incident' is rider error or external input the result is the same.

- As a road user group, motorcyclists are statistically over represented in the amount of ACC claims as opposed to other road user groups.

- Under a user pays system, a group that consumes more, pays more. This is true across the board, that is why the ACC levy on an office worker is less than that of a high rise window cleaner, a simple effect of the risk assesment......




Excellent post.

Guys and gals - some of you simply don't get it: MOTORCYCLES are DANGEROUS. If we choose to ride them, we have to live with the consequences. I know that seems unfair when cagers cause accidents, but the fact is, if you expose yourself to a collision with solid objects, wearing nothing more than a helmet and toughened clothes, your body is just a sack of mush inside a skin - and you lose.

Nothing to do with fairness. It''s just logic.

The answer? Buy a big 4WD with lots of airbags - or don't leave the house.

[Katman]

but then again we are not stupid we all know what we are doing

That has to be a strong front runner for the Pisstake of the Year.

[Katman]

Guys and gals - some of you simply don't get it: MOTORCYCLES are DANGEROUS.



No they're not.

Motorcyclists are dangerous.

[dipshit]

If theres fifty motorcycle fatals in a year and 75% of them were caused by cars not seeing the motorcycle, why the fuck should motorcycle ACC levies go up????


Where did you get that figure from? Have you been attending BRONZ meetings or something?

Of all motorcycle accidents in NZ last year - major and minor - 39% were caused by other road users.

If just looking at fatals - 75% were the fault of the rider.

Having a car pull out in front of you around town on a busy Friday night will probably result in a broken leg or something.

Having a blast over your favourite twisty bit of road out in the countryside at 100mph will pretty much see you dead if you fuck up a corner and go through a fence.

I know which one of these two scenarios would concern me the most.

[Marmoot]

but they do get crashed into!!! still a crash no???

so there's speed involved, no?

[Winston001]

No they're not.

Motorcyclists are dangerous.

Yeeeessss but that's the same argument run by the American National Rifle Association. Guns aren't dangerous, people are. Thats not much help to the robbery victim on the end of a bullet.

So I maintain that motorcycles, along with chainsaws and microlights etc, are inherently dangerous. If we choose to enjoy them, why should the average taxpayer bear the cost of our injuries?

[Katman]

So I maintain that motorcycles, along with chainsaws and microlights etc, are inherently dangerous.

Nooooooo they're not (except for the microlights - if the engine cuts out you're fucked). A properly maintained motorcycle is not dangerous at all. The only danger occurs when you place a human on said motorcycle.

[riffer]

So I maintain that motorcycles, along with chainsaws and microlights etc, are inherently dangerous.


Nooooooo they're not (except for the microlights - if the engine cuts out you're fucked). A properly maintained motorcycle is not dangerous at all. The only danger occurs when you place a human on said motorcycle.

You're both splitting hairs. The correct phrase is:

"The act of riding a motorcycle carries a greater likelihood of exposure to risk and therefore injury in the unlikely event of an unexpected impact compared to other vehicles."

[GTRMAN]

Nooooooo they're not (except for the microlights - if the engine cuts out you're fucked). A properly maintained motorcycle is not dangerous at all. The only danger occurs when you place a human on said motorcycle.


So then the answer is to remove the rider from the equation......


seriously though, any object is safe until it is put into the hands of a human, so for the sake of argument can we agree that we are talking about motorcycles with human pilots ?

[Katman]

"The act of riding a motorcycle carries a greater likelihood of exposure to risk and therefore injury in the unlikely event of an unexpected impact compared to other vehicles."

I'll happily put my name to that one.

People need to learn to recognise the difference between 'inherent risk' and 'danger'.

[coppepa]

I have only been in NZ for a short while so do not have an in depth knowledge of the biker world here. Over the last few days I've continually been hearing of 50 biker deaths in the last year and it is openly accepted that 50% of these are not biker fault. So forget the accuracy of the overall figures and focus on the 'State' seeming to be happy in the 50% of deaths cause by incapable drivers and what is being done about? Where are the biker organizations demanding that action is taken in driver education, don't the Government realize that 'bikers are voters' not just yobs on 2 wheels.
The World Health Organization have a mandate to reduce road deaths, banning bikes is an easy win for them. How long before some politico has a look at what's going on in Europe and decides to introduce the draconian measures being hawked around, ban bikes, control them from satellites, make it so bloody difficult to get a full license that in a generation no one will have a full license anyway.
We have to get organized even with it meaning making the 'authorities feel 'a bit of pain' the have to realize that the biker community has a voice. Since I have been in NZ i have been on a couple of ride outs, breast cancer and a toy run so there are why not a ride to say to Keys mob what the hell are you doing to reduce bjker deaths by 50%

Ride Safe Coppepa

[coppepa]

,,,,what the hell is that about. Just noticed this tag against my name. I First passed my test 45 years ago and have held a full license ever since. Sorry about the odd missed word in first post but trying to type with the family shouting for me to watch Transformers is a bloody nightmare

Ride Safe Coppepa

[Ocean1]

I First passed my test 45 years ago

Mebe. But you haven't passed our wee test yet. :shifty:

[Katman]

Over the last few days I've continually been hearing of 50 biker deaths in the last year and it is openly accepted that 50% of these are not biker fault.

Where the fuck did you get that idea from?

By far the majority have been solely the fault of a motorcyclist.

[Ocean1]

Mebe. But you haven't passed our wee test yet. :shifty:

Which is: how, exactly, you respond to this:


Where the fuck did you get that idea from?

By far the majority have been solely the fault of a motorcyclist.

No cheating now.

[scracha]

,,,, I First passed my test 45 years ago

Can one of the mod's change the tag to "grandad" ?

Hmm...It would be nice if

everyone paid their fair share.
better driver and rider training were introduced.
drivers/riders were tested regularly to keep their license "current".
there were the equivalent of MAG or FEMA on our little island.


but I'd be gobsmacked if any of the above ever happened here.

[Katman]

Which is: how, exactly, you respond to this:



No cheating now.

Who gets to mark his paper?