When bikers kill bikers.

[Katman]

KiwiBiker is full of motorcyclists who believe that their greatest enemy on the road is car drivers.

When will we start to realise that it is ourselves that have the greatest potential to be our own worst enemy?

[TOTO]

WE know that already.

welcome aboard the "know-how" boat katman.

[Big Dave]

When bikers ignore bikers:

[Ixion]

Told you so. Unless there are corpses to point to, nobody is interested.

[Grahameeboy]

WE know that already.

welcome aboard the "know-how" boat katman.

Well it does not show on this site most of the time...

[Katman]

It's bad enough when a motorcyclist's disregard for their own safety takes their own life but when that same disregard claims the lives of innocent others the actions are considerably more contemptible.

[dipshit]

WE know that already.

Then how come most people around here think car drivers cause the majority of motorcycle accidents..???

[Grahameeboy]

Then how come most people around here think car drivers cause the majority of motorcycle accidents..???

Yeah...............................:angry2:

[Big Dave]

What about Mk1 Cortina's...



Nah - no Mk1 cortinas. My friend Richard had a Consul though.

My mum had a 250 XL that I got my licence in. That hammered.

[Grahameeboy]

I can't get over the way the put their face real close to the birds when they are handling them.

I know...I found that if you don't do that with birds you generally don't make out...

[Hitcher]

It's bad enough when a motorcyclist's disregard for their own safety takes their own life but when that same disregard claims the lives of innocent others the actions are considerably more contemptible.

Whilst I cannot disagree, in such circumstances the person who would generally be the one to benefit the most from such learning is also one who is dead. In which case there is little value to be had from poring over scant and often misreported details of the accident in question. Speculation and ghoulishness are not good teachers, in my opinion.

But denial is, regrettably, alive and well in the motorcycling community. Apart from oneself and intersections, probably the next most dangerous thing to me as a motorcyclist is other motorcyclists. This is why I am extremely discerning about the nature of "group" rides in which I choose to participate.

The two extremes of this I have encountered are the Wellington Wednesday Night "Cruisy" Ride, and the annual Rusty Nuts Grand Challenge. No prizes for guessing which of these has the better safety record and is typified by a field of riders who are extremely respectful of other riders.

[Usarka]

There are two people on this site who are feverently anti "using the road as a racetrack".

Whilst I agree with them, I'd bet 80 cents each way that they were both "a bit of a hoon" in their day, before they got old or before they witnessed something that changed them forever.

The question is, would they have listened to the preaching before the epiphany or maturity that occured?

Enough seriousness, off to add some grass to the opiates, alcohol and amphetamines.

[Katman]

in such circumstances the person who would generally be the one to benefit the most from such learning is also one who is dead.

No, I think there's an equally valuable lesson there for all of us.

[riffer]

Whilst it is sad that it appears that a motorcyclist may have caused the death of another motorcyclists, let's not go jumping to any conclusions about it being a trend.

I'm only aware of it happening twice in recent times.

Compare that with motorcycle v car statistics.

[Katman]

There are two people on this site who are feverently anti "using the road as a racetrack".

Whilst I agree with them, I'd bet 80 cents each way that they were both "a bit of a hoon" in their day, before they got old or before they witnessed something that changed them forever.

The question is, would they have listened to the preaching before the epiphany or maturity that occured?

Enough seriousness, off to add some grass to the opiates, alcohol and amphetamines.

I was once part of the decay.

I now prefer to be part of the cure.

[Hitcher]

No, I think there's an equally valuable lesson there for all of us.

I would only agree if I knew that the scenario presented for my edification was an accurate one.

And the only message that can be taken is "don't do anything stupid, ride beyond the conditions or your ability, and be respectful of all other road users at all times."

[Katman]

Whilst it is sad that it appears that a motorcyclist may have caused the death of another motorcyclists, let's not go jumping to any conclusions about it being a trend.

I'm only aware of it happening twice in recent times.

Compare that with motorcycle v car statistics.

Don't forget the countless near misses.

[Usarka]

I was once part of the decay.

I now prefer to be part of the cure.

But would you (then) have listened to you (now)?

[riffer]

Don't forget the countless near misses.

Oh go on...

show me the stats of near misses between bikes compared to near misses between bikes and cars.

What a specious argument Steve. You can do better than that.

[Katman]

show me the stats of near misses between bikes compared to near misses between bikes and cars.



There's been plenty of examples given on here.

They get conveniently ignored.

[riffer]

There's been plenty of examples given on here.

They get conveniently ignored.

Yes, but still not enough to prove that bikes v bikes is more of a threat than bikes v cars.

I still don't understand the point of your original post. Do you believe we have enough evidence to prove that it's a growing threat?

[Hitcher]

They get conveniently ignored.

I certainly find them tedious. At one stage it felt like every second Fatt Max thread was an "oh fuck, I nearly got taken out" revelation. There are times when one has a measure of sympathy for the poor long-suffering car drivers out there.

[dipshit]

Whilst it is sad that it appears that a motorcyclist may have caused the death of another motorcyclists, let's not go jumping to any conclusions about it being a trend.

I'm only aware of it happening twice in recent times.

Compare that with motorcycle v car statistics.


It isn't just bike vs bike. How about all the accidents of bikes all on their very own.

75% of motorcycle deaths in NZ for the last few years were the fault of the rider.

That means we can all improve our odds if we think about how we can ride more safely rather than blaming car drivers for our problems.

[Katman]

Yes, but still not enough to prove that bikes v bikes is more of a threat than bikes v cars.

I still don't understand the point of your original post. Do you believe we have enough evidence to prove that it's a growing threat?

I'm not just talking about motorcyclists killing other motorcyclists (or pillions).

Motorcyclists killing themselves due to a disregard for their onroad behaviour is going to see the death of Motorcycling as we currently know it.

[Usarka]

:lol: just got an infraction for off topic due to a comment about smoking. Woohooo my very first :wari:

My original but subtle point was 10's of thousands of people die per annum from smoking and/or pollution related illness.

How many people die on the road each year?

Is the huge focus on road deaths proportionate with initiatives being undertaken for other forms of death in this country?

Right, now definitely enough serious shirley.

[Stan]

Not wanting to drag the thread back on-topic (despite Katman's obvious attractions) but he is right about the avoiding responsibility thing.

I noticed that even on the Akoroa crash thread, some people were trying to find a way to blame cagers for it.

If you want to survive out there, you have to take responsibility for your own safety, right or wrong. Lets say some wanker pulls out in front of you; more often than not, you could have predicted it. You saw him at the give-way sign and you never saw him look at you? Your fingers should have been tightening on the brake right then. I think some of us take the he's-in-the-wrong-so-I-don't-need-to-do-anything attitude which is OK if you're arguing over a movie queue but loses its attraction as you're flying over a Subaru.

[Grahameeboy]

:lol: just got an infraction for off topic due to a comment about smoking. Woohooo my very first :wari:

My original but subtle point was 10's of thousands of people die per annum from smoking and/or pollution related illness.

How many people die on the road each year?

Is the huge focus on road deaths proportionate with initiatives being undertaken for other forms of death in this country?

Right, now definitely enough serious shirley.

True...I mean if it is all about needless deaths then why don't the Govt ban smoking.....or drinking.....

[Katman]

My original but subtle point was 10's of thousands of people die per annum from smoking and/or pollution related illness.



You are aware of the anti-smoking laws, aren't you?

There's no reason to believe that the government won't take even further steps in the future.

[Hitcher]

There is a saying,if ifs and buts were candy we would all have a merry Christmas.
I never dwell on what never happened.

I thought the saying was that if we all pulled together we could have a white christmas.

Best we not dwell too much on that one either...

[riffer]

It isn't just bike vs bike. How about all the accidents of bikes all on their very own.

75% of motorcycle deaths in NZ for the last few years were the fault of the rider.

That means we can all improve our odds if we think about how we can ride more safely rather than blaming car drivers for our problems.

Sure we can. I doubt it'll make a blind bit of difference to the average motorist. Then we'll be talking about how they want to ban bikes because they aren't safe because idiot cagers keep running into them.


I'm not just talking about motorcyclists killing other motorcyclists (or pillions).

Motorcyclists killing themselves due to a disregard for their onroad behaviour is going to see the death of Motorcycling as we currently know it.

Maybe. But car drivers seem to be just as stupid and no-one's talking about getting rid of them in a hurry are they (well except for the Greens, whom no-one listens to).

Face it guys. The road toll is down. The powers that be are cracking down massively on speed (it's the Police's main focus for the new year, just for a change. We can't keep riding like idiots forever. We'll end up fined off the road or dead (and yes some innocents will suffer if that happens).

But I think crude oil will run out before they ban bikes because a minority ride like muppets.

[Katman]

I never dwell on what never happened.


But if we don't dwell on what could have happened we will learn nothing and nothing will change.

[Usarka]

If we don't dwell on what could have happened we will learn nothing and nothing will change.

If colombus had dwelled on what could have happened he wouldn't have found america.

[madbikeboy]

This thread had a counter thread that was amusing. Seriously, fuck the censorship.

If we're going to remain on topic - there is a significant attitude problem between a lot of the people who post on this site - an example would be any member of the Moron Few. Now, I've posted on this subject a few times.

Accidents and motorcycles, there seems to be a linkage. There also seems to be a linkage between some riders having their head up their ass and the inevitable fall into the abyss.

If you want to clean this problem up - stop fucking around posting shit on websites, instead get a lobby group up and running that actually seeks funding for education, mandatory skills based testing and licensing that's actually meaningful, better policing with sensible application - and improve the biker PR. I'm sick and tired of seeing BS in the media about joe blogs killing himself on a xxx bike. Instead, lets get images in the media about the toy runs, the westpac ride etc.

We need to increase our professionalism, we need to get out shit together and self regulate before we get government intervention (which is frankly, inevitable).

Quit whining and do something meaningful. I have met KatMan, I really respect him and his message - but one guy is not going to change attitudes. In 1973, the road toll was at peak, the government intervened. All other groups are trending down for injury and death stats, except motorcycling which has leaped up. Do the math.

And, stop the censorship, it's fucking irritating.

[The Stranger]

:lol: just got an infraction for off topic due to a comment about smoking. Woohooo my very first :wari:

My original but subtle point was 10's of thousands of people die per annum from smoking and/or pollution related illness.

How many people die on the road each year?



Surely the mod was smoking something at the time.
I would have thought a blind man could see the paralells between the dangers of smoking and riding like a dick - and the futility of trying to control either.

[jrandom]

There also seems to be a linkage between some riders having their head up their ass and the inevitable fall into the abyss.

I dunno. To my eye, KB's history of fatal crashes has been about half-and-half crazy head-up-arse riders and sensible sorts that you'd never expect it to happen to.

We'd all like to think that it's the Carvers who fuck themselves up, but sometimes it's the Hitchers. Y'know?


And, stop the censorship, it's fucking irritating.

KB Is Not A Democracy (tm).

[Big Dave]

I ride with courtesy, common sense and I don't blame anyone for the fact that motorcycling is dangerous - or what might become of me.

What frankly annoys me is being tarred with these two's brushes.

[Katman]

But car drivers seem to be just as stupid and no-one's talking about getting rid of them in a hurry

Do you understand the concept of 'minority'?

[madbikeboy]

I dunno. To my eye, KB's history of fatal crashes has been about half-and-half crazy head-up-arse riders and sensible sorts that you'd never expect it to happen to.

We'd all like to think that it's the Carvers who fuck themselves up, but sometimes it's the Hitchers. Y'know?



KB Is Not A Democracy (tm).

Yeah, true as well, my generalisation is exactly that.

We can hope they're not the latter type...


As for KB not being a democracy - true enough, and that kind of fucks me off.

[riffer]

Do you understand the concept of 'minority'?

Sure I do. I wonder if the authorities would understand the concept of the potential mass disobedience that could result from banning motorcycles?

[Katman]

Sure I do. I wonder if the authorities would understand the concept of the potential mass disobedience that could result from banning motorcycles?

What, like the Cheesecutter campaign?

[The Stranger]

If we're going to remain on topic - there is a significant attitude problem between a lot of the people who post on this site - an example would be any member of the Moron Few. Now, I've posted on this subject a few times.



Where do you see the problem with the morons attitude?
Who says your attitude is the "right" one?

[Madness]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ANetV_WmN1s&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ANetV_WmN1s&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Hitcher]

Do you understand the concept of 'minority'?

I'm not sure what your point is.

Discussion of accidents on this site is OK as long as it is respectful of those who may have died and those who loved them.

But nearly all "discussion" of accidents quickly descends to speculation, sweeping value judgments, trite cliches, abusive comments, etc, etc.

Policy wonks and regulators will make recommendations and laws based on their interpretation of what they see going on around them in an effort to deal with issues of community concern and public safety. Their deliberations are usually informed by "official" statistics and other forms of public record.

"I like not these statistics. Bring me some new ones! Preferably ones that I agree with," is not a response on which to try and unravel the Bayeux Tapestry of motorcycle accidents.

The camera never lies, nor do Kiwi Bikers. Yeah right.

[The Stranger]

Do you understand the concept of 'minority'?

They're the ones the govt always listens to and passes stupid laws for aren't they?

[Katman]

How often do videos get posted of KBers riding in a manner that shows total disregard for anyone else on the road, and in a way that would have them catching the bus if the police actually did something about it, followed by choruses of "Awesome video man"?

[Elysium]

I'm not just talking about motorcyclists killing other motorcyclists (or pillions).

Motorcyclists killing themselves due to a disregard for their onroad behaviour is going to see the death of Motorcycling as we currently know it.

Then your thread title is misleading. The way you're going on, it should be "bikers killing themselves"

[DMNTD]

If you want to survive out there, you have to take responsibility for your own safety, right or wrong.

100% fact...

[riffer]

How often do videos get posted of KBers riding in a manner that shows total disregard for anyone else on the road, and in the way that would have them catching the bus if the police actually did something about it, followed by choruses of "Awesome video man"?

Not as often as kbers calmly and legally going about their own business every day.

[Katman]

I'm not sure what your point is.



My 'point' was in response to Riffer's claim that the government aren't likely to try banning cars.

I actually don't imagine they would ever try banning motorcycles either but at this rate can easily see the day they say "That's it, no more bikes over 500cc are being imported into the country".

[MadDuck]

What, like the Cheesecutter campaign?

There are some of us that are passionate about getting rid of Cheesecutters whether you agree with it or not.

Difference is the people behind this campaign dont just sit behind a keyboard but are trying to bring their concerns to the public view. Perhaps if you are so passionate you could try doing the same instead of just spouting your ideas in here?

There was an accident on Sh16 about a year ago which was a head on biker accident. What I said in that thread I repeat now. I am sure when we set off for a ride the last thing in our minds is not coming home.

If your campaign is to ban motorcycles from the roads then do something about it.

[LBD]

Not wanting to drag the thread back on-topic (despite Katman's obvious attractions) but he is right about the avoiding responsibility thing.

I noticed that even on the Akoroa crash thread, some people were trying to find a way to blame cagers for it.

If you want to survive out there, you have to take responsibility for your own safety, right or wrong. Lets say some wanker pulls out in front of you; more often than not, you could have predicted it. You saw him at the give-way sign and you never saw him look at you? Your fingers should have been tightening on the brake right then. I think some of us take the he's-in-the-wrong-so-I-don't-need-to-do-anything attitude which is OK if you're arguing over a movie queue but loses its attraction as you're flying over a Subaru.

Thats the stuff....and you do have to take it one step further..."you have to take responsibility" and be prepared for the irresponsibility of others... As you say, fingers on the brake and be prepared if a situation should develop. Two early years accidents and have prepared me for two later years near misses, that would have been accidents had I not learnt to be watchful and distrust other dipsticks on the road.

No need to ride slow but no excuse to ride stupid either. A rider can measure his ability by the number and magnitute of OSM,s per year. (Oh Shit Moments)

[Katman]

Then your thread title is misleading.

No it's not.

The title (and the tag of the same name) refers to bikers killing themselves or other bikers through their own actions.

[Swoop]

They're the ones the govt always listens to and passes stupid laws for aren't they?
Quite correct. "The Squeaky Wheel" and all that.

Expect to see quite a bit of the "katman campaign" used against bikers when the Gubbinment choose to target something.

[Katman]

If your campaign is to ban motorcycles from the roads then do something about it.

Where the fuck have I ever suggested that?

[MadDuck]

I actually don't imagine they would ever try banning motorcycles either but at this rate can easily see the day they say "That's it, no more bikes over 500cc are being imported into the country".


Where the fuck have I ever suggested that?

OK I misread this post. Perhaps though you could respond without fucken swearing

[James Deuce]

I dunno. To my eye, KB's history of fatal crashes has been about half-and-half crazy head-up-arse riders and sensible sorts that you'd never expect it to happen to.

We'd all like to think that it's the Carvers who fuck themselves up, but sometimes it's the Hitchers. Y'know?



That's merely perception at work. You'd be surprised at how many "sensible" types died with their head up their arse. But then as has been pointed out, over, and over ad nauseum, we're not allowed to talk about that out loud so that perception is maintained.

My near-death experience was generated entirely by my ego. I wasn't doing anything unsafe or illegal at the time of the mother of all 50 km.hr accidents, but I was busy mentally "Nyah-ing" so I didn't spot the imminent avoidable accident. I got spanked and it served me right. Yes a car pulled out from a Stop sign at night with it's lights off on an unlit street. My bike had (note that, "had") headlights and I have eyes.

[scumdog]

Sure I do. I wonder if the authorities would understand the concept of the potential mass disobedience that could result from banning motorcycles?

Mass? Pfft!

With the percentage of motorbikes vs cagers??

The authorities won't even blink.

[The Stranger]

That's merely perception at work. You'd be surprised at how many "sensible" types died with their head up their arse. But then as has been pointed out, over, and over ad nauseum, we're not allowed to talk about that out loud so that perception is maintained.

My near-death experience was generated entirely by my ego. I wasn't doing anything unsafe or illegal at the time of the mother of all 50 km.hr accidents, but I was busy mentally "Nyah-ing" so I didn't spot the imminent avoidable accident. I got spanked and it served me right. Yes a car pulled out from a Stop sign at night with it's lights off on an unlit street. My bike had (note that, "had") headlights and I have eyes.

I'm missing the message here Jim.
Is it that you are human and as humans do you made a mistake?
Should you have been super human?
The only practical way to prevent all motorcycle accidents is to ban motorcycles.

We've all made mistakes, all gone too fast, all had 20/20 hindsight.
What EXACTLY is it you, katman, dipshit and madbikeboy want?

[madbikeboy]

Where do you see the problem with the morons attitude?
Who says your attitude is the "right" one?

I see the problem as the lack of respect, the promotion of reckless riding on the road, the bragging about riding drunk, with pillions, doing 160 k wheelstands after attending your erection party...

My attitude isn't perfect, but most would agree that not doing most of the above is a good start. I for one would like to see drunk driver's vehicles impounded and crushed for a first offence - but I'm biased, I view the empty places at my Christmas dinner table with less joy than all of you who haven't been affected by drunk drivers. My attitude clearly stinks.

[James Deuce]

I'm missing the message here Jim.
Is it that you are human and as humans do you made a mistake?
Should you have been super human?
The only practical way to prevent all motorcycle accidents is to ban motorcycles.

We've all made mistakes, all gone too fast, all had 20/20 hindsight.
What EXACTLY is it you, katman, dipshit and madbikeboy want?

I'm talking about me, OK, so lets not go off on that tangent.

I had a huge, life changing accident because I'm a (hopefully was) small minded fuckwit and wanted to prove that I could do something that I shouldn't have even attempted. I shouldn't have been on a bike that day. It has nothing to do with hindsight. If I'm in a similar state of mind, I'll use public transport or ask my lovely wife for a lift instead of getting on the bike.

[ital916]

Well I ride with the mentality that 100% of cars AND bikes are ridden/driven by numpties and dont seem to come across too many incidents. In fact from some of the stuff I have heard I will have to support my view that 90% of motorcyclists are idiots and that I have been lucky to meet the sensible one in the other 10%.

We all start of hot headed and we all do something stupid. It is realising the fact that we ride like idiots and changing that, that will make the difference.

I agree with katman.

[Usarka]

We all start of hot headed and we all do something stupid. It is realising the fact that we ride like idiots and changing that, that will make the difference.

I agree with katman.

So do I, but I am genuinely concerned that the lock-horns headbutt approach is not the right one for changing kiwi blokes minds and that it might have the opposite effect.

[The Stranger]

I see the problem as the lack of respect, the promotion of reckless riding on the road, the bragging about riding drunk, with pillions, doing 160 k wheelstands after attending your erection party...

My attitude isn't perfect,

Ah so it's the piss take and wind up attitude you don't like.
So what about his riding?
Have you ridden with carver? What did you think of his ability and attitude on the road?

Again from what I saw on the coro loop on the 27th I was most impressed with his ability, attitude and consideration for others. Oddly enough the 2 riders which came in to the biggest slating lately are 2 I would have no hesitation in doing the loop with again, and yes there are those that I consider dangerous and wont ride with. They sit here, shut the fuck up and fly under the radar and don't get slated by the waaaaambulance chasers. Yet these are the ones who are the bigger threat to your world.

[The Stranger]

I want my community of bikers, who for the most part I like, to ride with care and respect before we get draconian laws forced on us. Self regulation beats government regulation.



So how you going to achieve this?
My guess is that you want it so long as it means you don't have to leave your keyboard - I could be wrong, I'll be happy to be wrong.

I gather the people who died at Akaroa were not KBers, you have many to reach and there are some nice people around who generally ride harleys and wear patches who could also use some of your lovin.

So stop preaching to the converted - we agree with you - go get the rest.

[Big Dave]

Stan -in reply to the pd post - racing and road riding are not the same thing.

Every time I put the key in the ignition I pause to reflect on the danger that is about to confront me and I run through a checklist - after a visual inspection of the bike.

Get head right is one of the items.

[oldrider]

KiwiBiker is full of motorcyclists who believe that their greatest enemy on the road is car drivers.

When will we start to realise that it is ourselves that have the greatest potential to be our own worst enemy?

Those that can ride, ride! :ride:

Then there are those that just waste valuable riding time, pontificating on the negatives! :bash:

Mainly by (albeit,well meaning) people like Katman and his deciples of doom! :shifty:

People, who overfocus on the negatives should never own or ride a motorcycle! (IMHO) :doh:

Get over it or just buy/drive a Hummer! :mellow:

Don't doubt your sincerity Katman but your repetitive, negative, posting, gets more than just a little boreing! :zzzz: John.

[madbikeboy]

So how you going to achieve this?
My guess is that you want it so long as it means you don't have to leave your keyboard - I could be wrong, I'll be happy to be wrong.

So stop preaching to the converted - we agree with you - go get the rest.

I think that was my point to Katman...!

[arj127]

It isn't just bike vs bike. How about all the accidents of bikes all on their very own.

75% of motorcycle deaths in NZ for the last few years were the fault of the rider.

That means we can all improve our odds if we think about how we can ride more safely rather than blaming car drivers for our problems.

where do you get these stats, I would like to see them

[scumdog]

(a)There are some of us that are passionate about getting rid of Cheesecutters whether you agree with it or not.

(b) I am sure when we set off for a ride the last thing in our minds is not coming home.

(a) They are the least of my worries.

(b) I constantly think along those lines and try to ride accordingly.

[jonbuoy]

To be honest I think my biggest threat when putting the key in the ignition is me.

[Jantar]

where do you get these stats, I would like to see them
The stats themselves do not appear to be available. However the analysis of the stats is in a bar graph on page 4 of this report. http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

Using the same methodology, 96% of fatal car crashes are the fault of the car driver. It is because of the misleading way that statistics can be presented that they should publish the raw data. This is unlikely to happen though.

[Katman]

I also believe that Biker Down threads do nothing but engender a culture of sympathy for motorcyclists regardless of whether they were riding irresponsibly.

The belief that "Ah well, if things turn to shit at least I'll have a glowing KB epitaph" should be replaced by the knowledge that if you die riding like a fool you'll be remembered as a fool.

[Usarka]

I also believe that Biker Down threads do nothing but engender a culture of sympathy for motorcyclists regardless of whether they were riding irresponsibly.

The belief that "Ah well, if things turn to shit at least I'll have a glowing KB epitaph" should be replaced by the knowledge that if you die riding like a fool you'll be remembered as a fool.

Right. My mum smoked and drunk alcohol all her life.

She also just died of cancer. Are you saying she should be remembered as an idiot?

[Grahameeboy]

Right. My mum smoked and drunk alcohol all her life.

She also just died of cancer. Are you saying she should be remembered as an idiot?

Different scenarios and I would not say your Mum was an idiot but the similarity is that they both knew the risks...not saying I am not sad at your loss but you you know where I am going.

We forget that life is a risk in all shapes and forms and riding a bike is not an inclusive one...but it is a sure way of ending life quicker than most other abuse's.

[ital916]

So do I, but I am genuinely concerned that the lock-horns headbutt approach is not the right one for changing kiwi blokes minds and that it might have the opposite effect.

I dont think "kiwi blokes" will react any better to other techniques as the problem lies in the mentality of the riders i.e. the I am right you are wrong and if shit happens you somehow caused it.

Maybe the start would be to teach people that take responsibility for things they cause good or bad need to be done.

this video is a prime example of biker at fault that will be blamed on the car. Youcan see the car pulls out miles ahead and from its movement you know it will pull aside. The biker doesnt even touch the brakes till its hammer time. bikers fault, will he accept that probably not.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/bad-bike-accident-from-two-angles/470224960/?icid=VIDURVAUT09

[pritch]

where do you get these stats, I would like to see them

There is a common misconception among motorcyclists regarding the statistics.

It is true that where the accident involves a car and a motorcycle the driver is at fault on the majority of occasions. Many extrapolate this to mean that motorcyclists are at fault in a minority of all accidents, that is not correct.

There are also a lot of accidents where no other vehicle is involved, the motorcyclist just fails to take a corner for example. The motorcyclist is at fault.

Sadly there are also accidents between motorcycles in which one of the motorcyclists must have been at fault.

Those few words in italics are important but are often ignored.

[Fatjim]

People die on motorcycles. You can ride however you like and you still end up dead. Motorcycling is a bloody dangerous pursuit.

Hitcher's bloody lucky to be with us, having a major off several years ago, and if I remember correctly, he had the missus on the back, so one very conservative and mature rider with all that he holds dear on the back had an off that nearly killed him.

UB crossed the centre line, here's a guy that preached never crossing the centre line, and lived it, till he died.

It can happen to anybody, and is likely to happen to everybody.


They are many arguments/opinions on how to ride safe, but the simple fact of the matter is that if something goes wrong, whether its your "fault" or not, then you have a much higher chance of dying than if you were in a car, unless its a deawoo.


The greatest risk to motorcyclist is motorcycling.

[rocketman1]

It is always a worry to myself when I see riders hugging the centre line, waiting to pass traffic. This in itself can be quite safe, in so much that the rider has a clearer view of opposing traffic, and also gives you the option of not rear ending the vehicle in front if it has to brake quickly.
The down side is meeting a motorcycle doing the same thing coming the other way.
How many of us actually think about a motorbike coming the other way around a blind corner when riding near the centre line. It would be a frightening experience and I suggest the riders would have little chance to react.
I maintain, that most motorbike vs motorbike accidents would be head-on...not nice,and I reinforce a safety message I read from an English source that is " when entering a right hand turn, you should enter well to the left, pick the apex and accelerate out, while technically being the correct and fastest way around a right hand corner it also gives you the opportunity to evade cars / motorbikes that may have overcooked the corner and may have drifted onto your side of the road, you also have a small amount of time to stay wide if another oncoming bike is on the white line, or overtaking traffic on the corner. The other option of hugging the white line, means you have NO option.
Left hand corners are more difficult, as if you have overcooked your entry speed the escape route is into on coming traffic.( and yes you will hopefully miss the rider coming the other way who abides with the above rules)
The danger with keeping wide to enter a left hander is that you are near the centreline... on a corner?... not the best place to be, in itself this is OK when you have a clear view around the corner, and can pick the apex, all good. The problem arises on blind left handers, when you cannot see centreline hugging the motorbike coming the other way.
On these corners you should not get closer to the centre line than the right front wheel tracks of a car, while not being the optimum position for picking the apex and exiting the corner it does give you some contingency to avoid the 'loose" motorcyclist coming the other way
These are simple rules and if all riders would stick to them or all be taught them then biker vs biker incidents should diminish.

[Squiggles]

Maybe the start would be to teach people that take responsibility for things they cause good or bad need to be done.

this video is a prime example of biker at fault that will be blamed on the car. Youcan see the car pulls out miles ahead and from its movement you know it will pull aside. The biker doesnt even touch the brakes till its hammer time. bikers fault, will he accept that probably not.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/bad-bike-accident-from-two-angles/470224960/?icid=VIDURVAUT09


Fault is an interesting topic, if you think the car will pull out infront of you (and hit you) and do nothing to avoid such an event, when it does the car is still 'at fault' (in the legal sense, he pulled out, failing to give way)... but you let the accident happen (you could have slowed down, changed lanes, tooted, whatever). Legal fault or not, you'll be the one punished... There is always something that could have been done differently, it pays to reflect on these events. The rider in that video might think of the if's and but's afterwards... the problem comes if he/she doesnt, blames it on the car, and continues on to repeat history.
Its dangerous how perception can change, if you're a learner these days nobody blinks if you drop/come off your bike, its acceptable practise. What must not be allowed is for it to become acceptable to repeat your fuckups. Blaming only the cage is part of this. We must take responsibility for our part in whatever happens and learn from it.

[carver]

This thread had a counter thread that was amusing. Seriously, fuck the censorship.

If we're going to remain on topic - there is a significant attitude problem between a lot of the people who post on this site - an example would be any member of the Moron Few. Now, I've posted on this subject a few times.

Accidents and motorcycles, there seems to be a linkage. There also seems to be a linkage between some riders having their head up their ass and the inevitable fall into the abyss.



now here we go, the mormon few, the poster child(ren) for the naughty boys on bikes.

its been said before

the mormon few will rise!


I dunno. To my eye, KB's history of fatal crashes has been about half-and-half crazy head-up-arse riders and sensible sorts that you'd never expect it to happen to.

We'd all like to think that it's the Carvers who fuck themselves up, but sometimes it's the Hitchers. Y'know?



KB Is Not A Democracy (tm).

the mormon few are more than that.

people like madbikeboy, jimjim, and a few other i dare say, want to see us fuck ourselves up.
i got plenty of red rep telling me to hurry up and die, but il take my time on that one


Where do you see the problem with the morons attitude?
Who says your attitude is the "right" one?

oh, but he must be right.
to question ones self can be so enlightening, too mush so for me to put into words


How often do videos get posted of KBers riding in a manner that shows total disregard for anyone else on the road, and in the way that would have them catching the bus if the police actually did something about it, followed by choruses of "Awesome video man"?

so when is your video coming out?

il film it and edit it for you!


I see the problem as the lack of respect, the promotion of reckless riding on the road, the bragging about riding drunk, with pillions, doing 160 k wheelstands after attending your erection party...

My attitude isn't perfect, but most would agree that not doing most of the above is a good start. I for one would like to see drunk driver's vehicles impounded and crushed for a first offence - but I'm biased, I view the empty places at my Christmas dinner table with less joy than all of you who haven't been affected by drunk drivers. My attitude clearly stinks.

and?
how is your angry whining going to make a difference?

il do what i like-ride how i want-spend my money how i please-cause its my life, and i think everyone else should too.

you should pillion with me sometime, cause you have never ridden with me!




Ah so it's the piss take and wind up attitude you don't like.
So what about his riding?
Have you ridden with carver? What did you think of his ability and attitude on the road?

Again from what I saw on the coro loop on the 27th I was most impressed with his ability, attitude and consideration for others. Oddly enough the 2 riders which came in to the biggest slating lately are 2 I would have no hesitation in doing the loop with again, and yes there are those that I consider dangerous and wont ride with. They sit here, shut the fuck up and fly under the radar and don't get slated by the waaaaambulance chasers. Yet these are the ones who are the bigger threat to your world.

ah, he never has, but im sure he does not need to and knows all about how i ride
thanks for the upbuilding comments though, the 27th was a good day for some jogging.

beyond is a great rider, and i like riding with him.
as is the stranger!

[MacD]

The stats themselves do not appear to be available. However the analysis of the stats is in a bar graph on page 4 of this report. http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

Using the same methodology, 96% of fatal car crashes are the fault of the car driver. It is because of the misleading way that statistics can be presented that they should publish the raw data. This is unlikely to happen though.

The full Motor Vehicle Crashes in NZ reports (http://www.transport.govt.nz/annual-statistics-2007/)have a fair amount of raw numbers in them. Sections 2 and 6 cover motorcycle crash data.

Table 32 on p74 has some useful numbers for contradicting the biker carnage headlines that we recently saw on Stuff. The number of fatalities per 10,000 on-road motorcycles has been consistently dropping in the last decade or so from a high of 15 in the mid-90s to 4.8 in 2007. (The peak figure was 29.6 in 1955 by the way).

In the same table, registration numbers have nearly doubled from 46000 in 1996 to 85356 in 2007.

So while the absolute number of motorcyclist fatalities has been climbing slightly in the last few years, the rate has been dropping.

[dipshit]

The stats themselves do not appear to be available. However the analysis of the stats is in a bar graph on page 4 of this report. http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

Using the same methodology, 96% of fatal car crashes are the fault of the car driver. It is because of the misleading way that statistics can be presented that they should publish the raw data. This is unlikely to happen though.


What Jantar is basically saying.... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=102946&d=1218611868

[dipshit]

The number of fatalities per 10,000 on-road motorcycles has been consistently dropping in the last decade or so from a high of 15 in the mid-90s to 4.8 in 2007.

Which is good to see. However car fatalities from the mid-90s have fallen from 2.5 per 10,000 to 1.2 in 2007 (table 1 p17)

This still doesn't put motorcyclists in a good light.

[Hitcher]

This still doesn't put motorcyclists in a good light.

If only it were that simple.

[Paul in NZ]

Any one cop the wierd article in the dom post on sat last?

Guts is, every other category or road users are reducing in death rates except - you guessed it, motorcyclists... We are actually getting worse hence the attention - d'oh!

[Katman]

Any one cop the wierd article in the dom post on sat last?

Guts is, every other category or road users are reducing in death rates except - you guessed it, motorcyclists... We are actually getting worse hence the attention - d'oh!

There's probably some on here that will pat each other on the back when they read that article.

[Ocean1]

Any one cop the wierd article in the dom post on sat last?

Guts is, every other category or road users are reducing in death rates except - you guessed it, motorcyclists... We are actually getting worse hence the attention - d'oh!

No, we're not. Quite the reverse, fatalities are dropping.

There's just more of us.

Particularly you old fookers. :chase:

[Ixion]

This is the silly season , when editors desparate for something to fill columns will feature giant marrows on the front page. We happen to be this years selected target and whipping boy. It will pass once the sheeple have something more interesting to feast upon.

[Ocean1]

This is the silly season ,

It was a particularly sickening example, though.

[Katman]

It will pass once the sheeple have something more interesting to feast upon.

Unless, of course, we continue to provide corpses for those "sheeple" to "feast upon".

[Jantar]

Any one cop the wierd article in the dom post on sat last?

Guts is, every other category or road users are reducing in death rates except - you guessed it, motorcyclists... We are actually getting worse hence the attention - d'oh!

Yet the stats show that motorcycle death rates are the lowest thev'e been for a long time. The rate was 15.9 deaths per 10,000 motorcycles in 1995 and 4.8 per 10,000 in 2007. That is a great improvement.

The crash rate has also improved but not as much. Down from 306 crashes per 10,000 motorcycles in 1995 to 152 per 10,000 in 2007.

1995 was a very bad year, indeed the worst since 1973. So hopefully we have learnt something from that period till now.

I have always maintained that the most effective way to prevent motorcycle fatalities is to prevent the crashes in the first place. This not only reduces fatalities, but also the serious injuries that are often forgotten.

[Jantar]

There's probably some on here that will pat each other on the back when they read that article.


That is one of the sickest comments I have ever read on this site. Sometimes katman you do show a flash of brilliance, but then you go and ruin it with childish comment like this. If anyone takes delight in motorcyle deaths, it would yourself and Dipshit. You both post more on those threads than any other.

[Katman]

That is one of the sickest comments I have ever read on this site.

You're fucking joking, right? :weird:

The ostrich impersonations (of which you're a Grand Master) are considerably more obscene.

And if you're wondering what prompted the post, take a look at the number of times the phrase "most bins wins" crops up.

[Jantar]

You're fucking joking, right? :weird:

The ostrich impersonations (of which you're a Grand Master) are considerably more obscene.

And if you're wondering what prompted the post, take a look at the number of times the phrase "most bins wins" crops up.

Ok, I just did. it crops up 72 times out of 1,840,647 posts. That is 0.0039% of posts.

Most of those posts expousing the idea are by Carver, many, including your own, are saying how stupid the idea is.

As to the ostrich impersonation, both you and Dipshit have made that claim. Please back it up with factual examples.

[Paul in NZ]

Particularly you old fookers. :chase:

Who you callin' old boy?....... :zzzz: eh? wot time is it?

[Paul in NZ]

I have always maintained that the most effective way to prevent motorcycle fatalities is to prevent the crashes in the first place. .

Well I think we can all agree on that.....

[Katman]

As to the ostrich impersonation, both you and Dipshit have made that claim. Please back it up with factual examples.

Your constant attempts at downplaying statistics that show us (quite rightly) in a bad light is a prime example.

[Jantar]

Your constant attempts at downplaying statistics that show us (quite rightly) in a bad light is a prime example.
Downplaying statistics is one thing I wouldn't even know how to do. Can you please give me a single example where I have "downplayed" any actual statistics?

I do know how to read and to analyse statistics, and to put them in the correct context. If that is being ostrich like then please explain. I also prefer to go back to raw data rather than quote someone elses analysis.

[madbikeboy]

Yet the stats show that motorcycle death rates are the lowest thev'e been for a long time. The rate was 15.9 deaths per 10,000 motorcycles in 1995 and 4.8 per 10,000 in 2007. That is a great improvement.

The crash rate has also improved but not as much. Down from 306 crashes per 10,000 motorcycles in 1995 to 152 per 10,000 in 2007.

1995 was a very bad year, indeed the worst since 1973. So hopefully we have learnt something from that period till now.

I have always maintained that the most effective way to prevent motorcycle fatalities is to prevent the crashes in the first place. This not only reduces fatalities, but also the serious injuries that are often forgotten.

This is a fucking great post. This is interesting, and I reckon intuitively it makes sense. Any other interesting stats and facts?

[Katman]

This is a fucking great post. This is interesting, and I reckon intuitively it makes sense. Any other interesting stats and facts?

Open your eyes Mike. Regardless of whether you think they sound great, we are being watched. Others think our stats are bad (and I don't disagree) and their opinion will count for more than yours or mine.

[madbikeboy]

Open your eyes Mike. Regardless of whether you think they sound great, we are being watched. Others think our stats are bad (and I don't disagree) and their opinion will count for more than yours or mine.

Settle down bud, I understand that overall, the raw score of bikers killed is trending up - further, it sticks out like a sore thumb given that it's the only demographic that is trending up. However, it's interesting to see that when measured against a constant like 10,000 registrations (which kind of translates for me into an hours of operation type equation) that the number is trending down.

Okay, so putting this one back at your feet again, this is kind of neat throwing stuff back and forward - how could you actually effect the most change here?

[dipshit]

- how could you actually effect the most change here?

I myself would like to see motorcyclists own up to the fact that three-quarters of fatal motorcycle accidents were the fault of the rider... rather than blaming everything on everybody else. Many around here do actually think most motorcycle accidents are caused by car drivers. (and people like Jantar go hands over ears "no no no, this can't be true!)

Realising this may hopefully see more riders taking less risks on the roads and take more responsibility for their own safety.

I would also like to see the culture and attitude of faster = better, slowly get replaced with a bike culture and attitude that less carnage and fuckups = better. Less egotistical dick measuring "I am faster than you - therefore I am better than you" replaced with discipline and self-control and it doesn't matter how long it takes so long as I get there mentality.

It's about the space your head is in more than anything. "Skills" are worthless unless you have your head sorted first.

[Elysium]

I would also like to see the culture and attitude of faster = better, slowly get replaced with a bike culture and attitude that less carnage and fuckups = better. Less egotistical dick measuring "I am faster than you - therefore I am better than you" replaced with discipline and self-control and it doesn't matter how long it takes so long as I get there mentality.

Well you better get youself a scooter or the equivalent to one then because I think you have the wrong bike. Every SV or Firestorm I've seen on the road has been ridden hard and fast as they were designed to. :scooter:

[edit] hmmm gotta love the tags this thread is picking up[edit]

[Ixion]

I myself would like to see motorcyclists own up to the fact that three-quarters of fatal motorcycle accidents were the fault of the rider... rather than blaming everything on everybody else. Many around here do actually think most motorcycle accidents are caused by car drivers. (and people like Jantar go hands over ears "no no no, this can't be true!)

Realising this may hopefully see more riders taking less risks on the roads and take more responsibility for their own safety.

I would also like to see the culture and attitude of faster = better, slowly get replaced with a bike culture and attitude that less carnage and fuckups = better. Less egotistical dick measuring "I am faster than you - therefore I am better than you" replaced with discipline and self-control and it doesn't matter how long it takes so long as I get there mentality.

It's about the space your head is in more than anything. "Skills" are worthless unless you have your head sorted first.

Tell me, do you actually ride your bike, other than maybe the nearest latte establishment ?

I am genuinely puzzled, because I can't see what you get out of motorcycling. Most riders, I can understand why they'r e in it, the reasons being many and various. But you seem to have no rationale.

By your own (often repeated) statement, having fun on a motorcycle is one degree worse than kiddie fiddling. So manifestly you do not ride for enjoyment.

And, given the bike you list , you certainly are not riding to commute,to save money (I ride an SV1000, no one would pick one to commute on - though at least no-one could say you were having fun).

And the bike is valuable enough that it could easily be swapped for a decent car, so it cannot be financial exigency.

And you seem to virulently hate every other biker you encounter, so it can hardly be for the cameraderie.

And while a good many riders own a bike simply for the pose factor, an SV1000 is not the sort of machine usually picked for such a purpose. If it were a Harley, yes, but an SV1000 is not a very impressive bike. It does go quite fast, but you claim to abstain from any such display ; and they do sound quite good, but again, I cannot see you being so antisocial.

I cannot comprehend any way that someone could be forced to ride a bike, yet that is the impression you give. That you are forced into this hateful and unpleasant task , and want nothing so much as never to have to do it again. Would you not be much happier in a cage?

[piston broke]

ffs katman and dipshit,
have you not realised yet that you're negative shit is putting more people off than bringing them onside.
i agree with some of what y'all saying but,
there is a difference between scratchin your ass and tearin it.
you have good points, but do you really need to push your barrow in every post.
i've only been here a little while,but do either of you have a positive,happy, post,i ain't seen one

[dipshit]

Well you better get youself a scooter or the equivalent to one then because I think you have the wrong bike. Every SV or Firestorm I've seen on the road has been ridden hard and fast as they were designed to. :scooter:

And that attitude is a part of the problem.

By this logic (and I realise it is widespread) if I happened to of brought a GSXR1000 - then I would have to ride it everywhere at 250kph. After all that's what the bike was designed for? I must go 250 + or others will think I am a pussy.

This is what I am talking about of the bike culture macho dick measuring bullshit. Allowing yourself to be influenced by peer pressure is stupid and a killer.

[Elysium]

This is what I am talking about of the bike culture of macho dick measuring bullshit. Allowing yourself to be influenced by peer pressure is stupid and a killer.

I've seen none of it so far in all my riding. The riders in the Palmy area I ride with ride at their own pace and I don't force myself to keep up with them. If they get too far for slow riders, then they wait at turn offs and intersections for them to catch up.

I don't see any forced peer pressure from motorcyle riders, in fact it is more a problem in boy cage racers then us bikers.

[shaymas]

you can say that again was in my car heading home when a harley two up over taks on a corner and a tin top had to move over or they would had been road kill and they were no gang members they were yuppes thought to my self the goes another dick head giving us riders a bad name :argh::angry2:

[Ixion]

Well, it always seems abit silly to buy a bike and not use it for the intended purpose. Sort of like a florist shop buying a kenworth truck to deliver a few bunches of flowers.

If one does not intend ever to go over speed limit + a bit , then why spend the money on a machine whose whole design is based around going speed limit + A BLOODY GREAT HONKING bit . There are other machines that will do the job better.

I ride (amidst other things) an SV1000s. I must agree: it does only one thing well . It goes fast (well, fast for a slow old Nanna like me) . But if I never wanted to go fast (only on a closed road, under controlled conditions, of course), then I would not bother with it. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with sedate pootling - riding is fun (forbiddden word !) at slow speeds too, and nowdays I very rarely venture north of 150, but if that was all I was ever going to do I would certainly choose a different bike. Horses for courses and all that.

[dipshit]

Tell me, do you actually ride your bike, other than maybe the nearest latte establishment ?

I am genuinely puzzled, because I can't see what you get out of motorcycling. Most riders, I can understand why they'r e in it, the reasons being many and various. But you seem to have no rationale.

I get a huge amount of enjoyment from my bike. My job gives me 6 days off in a row. I love nothing better than to load up the tent and sleeping bag and head off on exploring, photography, camping trips for several days at a time. The freedom and enjoyment of being out on the open road on my bike is awesome. Photography is big hobby of mine (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1808385#post1808385) and the SV allows me to travel without costing a small fortune in petrol. Even if I am only cruising along at 110kph it still beats being in a car any day.

[piston broke]

I get a huge amount of enjoyment from my bike. My job gives me 6 days off in a row. I love nothing better than to load up the tent and sleeping bag and head off on exploring, photography, camping trips for several days at a time. The freedom and enjoyment of being out on the open road on my bike is awesome. Photography is big hobby of mine (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1808385#post1808385) and the SV allows me to travel without costing a small fortune in petrol. Even if I am only cruising along at 110kph it still beats being in a car any day.

so why try to bring all of us down with you're b.s posts.
remember most of us ride sensibly(sp).
time to post some more positive posts eh?
p.s a nice post from you,bring them on.

[dipshit]

I've seen none of it so far in all my riding.

Bullshit, you just said...

"Well you better get youself a scooter or the equivalent to one then because I think you have the wrong bike. Every SV or Firestorm I've seen on the road has been ridden hard and fast as they were designed to."

[nudemetalz]

Funny (I mean that in an intuitive sense) that you guys say that the rider is mostly to blame.
I had one instance today when I was going up for a ride to the top of the Rimutakas.
I went onto the passing lane (of which there are many but they're quite short) and overtook a car. Just as I was going back into the left lane, a rider two-up coming the other way on an Aprilia (I think) came tearing around the corner at great speed and overtook a car utilising my overtaking lane !!
If I hadn't have pulled into the left lane quickly I would have had a head-on.

So I for one saw some dangerous RIDING today. I was not happy !!! :angry2:

[piston broke]

come,on.
still waitin on the reply to mt post 105,you two.
are katman and dipshit one and the same?




oop's sorry i think i just saw something positive from dippy.
maybe they are two different peep's.
+1 dippy

[Swoop]

I understand that overall, the raw score of bikers killed is trending up - further, it sticks out like a sore thumb given that it's the only demographic that is trending up.
Remember that we have come out of 2008, the year when petrol prices were encouraging :
#1: Cars NOT to be used,
#2: Public transport to be heavily utilised, and
#3: More people getting onto bikes.
#4: Vegetablists encouraging any alternative to a petrol-powered motor.
A good year for swaying statistics.

[mister.koz]

Its easy to say "crash numbers have increased by 50%" and neglect to mention that there are nearly twice the motorcycles on the road. This is why calculus is better that statistics :D

It looks like crash rates per vehicle type etc have reduced across the board but motorcycles haven't reduced as much per road registration (as stated earlier).


... take a look at the number of times the phrase "most bins wins" crops up. ...

Those guys are taking the piss and poking fun to wind people up - they do it so well, suckered?

I think a useful statistic would be how many rides have the mormon few guys actually binned on after saying that? I am guessing not many... Carver?


Funny (I mean that in an intuitive sense) that you guys say that the rider is mostly to blame.
I had one instance today when I was going up for a ride to the top of the Rimutakas.
I went onto the passing lane (of which there are many but they're quite short) and overtook a car. Just as I was going back into the left lane, a rider two-up coming the other way on an Aprilia (I think) came tearing around the corner at great speed and overtook a car utilising my overtaking lane !!
If I hadn't have pulled into the left lane quickly I would have had a head-on.

So I for one saw some dangerous RIDING today. I was not happy !!! :angry2:

There's idiots on the road on all forms of vehicle...

Anyone stopped to think that we are all riders here and probably notice (or pay closer attention to) other bikes on the road, I usually try and get as far away from cars on the road but am quite happy to stick a little closer to other riders.

Seems to me that Katman (and others?) see all these people making the assumption that cars are normally to blame which is a subjective (albeit inaccurate) perception, because the scale is so unbalanced they provide the antigen to the statement as loud as possible and then throw in a few insults and rants to boot.

Makes perfect sense if you take their ferocity back a couple of notches.

Another useful statistic would be "how many riders think that they can pay less attention or apply less care on the road when they are riding as opposed to driving the car?"

[Elysium]

Bullshit, you just said...

"Well you better get youself a scooter or the equivalent to one then because I think you have the wrong bike. Every SV or Firestorm I've seen on the road has been ridden hard and fast as they were designed to."

Yes I said.



This is what I am talking about of the bike culture macho dick measuring bullshit. Allowing yourself to be influenced by peer pressure is stupid and a killer.

ridden hard and fast as they were designed to

B]macho dick measuring bullshit
Those are two different things.
One can ride hard and fast when rider is experienced, conditions right, right peice of road, ridden within the bikes limit and knows what they're doing, the other is just showing off which includes stupid stunts or over-taking in wrong places etc...

You have the wrong bike because nearly all your posts so far makes you sound like a reall nanna biker.

[Katman]

Lets get this straight.

I have never said "DO NOT EVER RIDE OVER THE SPEED LIMIT".

I have always said get enjoyment (not fun - motorcycles aren't toys) from riding while leaving plenty of margin for dealing with the expected.

250kph, even on a straight section of road, doesn't leave any margin if an animal were to run out from the side of the road.

Those of you who are trying to put words into dipshit's and my mouths are starting to show your desperation.

(And 96 600ss, if it's nice stories you want, go watch Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory).

[Hitcher]

I've got an idea.

Let's take responsibility for our own actions.

[Fatjim]

I myself would like to see motorcyclists own up to the fact that three-quarters of fatal motorcycle accidents were the fault of the rider...


The problem here is that most non fatal accidents that people talk about are not the fault of the rider, and dead riders opinions don't count. For example the number of "cager didn't see me" threads vastly outnumber the "I was going to fast for the corner" threads.


How can you get people who are not dead to acknowledge their fault in fatal accidents?

[madbikeboy]

I myself would like to see motorcyclists own up to the fact that three-quarters of fatal motorcycle accidents were the fault of the rider... rather than blaming everything on everybody else. Many around here do actually think most motorcycle accidents are caused by car drivers. (and people like Jantar go hands over ears "no no no, this can't be true!)

Realising this may hopefully see more riders taking less risks on the roads and take more responsibility for their own safety.

I would also like to see the culture and attitude of faster = better, slowly get replaced with a bike culture and attitude that less carnage and fuckups = better. Less egotistical dick measuring "I am faster than you - therefore I am better than you" replaced with discipline and self-control and it doesn't matter how long it takes so long as I get there mentality.

It's about the space your head more than anything. "Skills" are worthless unless you have your head sorted first.

I'll repeat the question again, you've stated what needs to be achieved, and I don't disagree with you or Steve - HOW do you effect the change?

[Number One]

you've stated what needs to be achieved, and I don't disagree with you or Steve - HOW do you effect the change?
Easy...THEY Katman & Dipshit DON'T

FWIW - I thought James Dueces thread on the similar topic and theme far more convincing and thought provoking than any of the twaddle that spills forth from those two. I only read to have a giggle actually..though there are some well thought out responses now and then too (from other KBs) :niceone: Not all motorcyclists are bad bad road users and those that are won't give two shits what K or D think of them for it NOR would they probably bother listening or reading either.

[Katman]

For example the number of "cager didn't see me" threads vastly outnumber the "I was going to fast for the corner" threads.


That's because it's fashionable to blame "cagers". Not many on here openly admit to coming off because they were "going too fast for the corner".

Which brings me to another point. How much worse would the stats be if all the single motorcycle accidents were reported instead of missing out those that the rider is too embarrassed to admit to?

[Badjelly]

Which brings me to another point. How much worse would the stats be if all the single motorcycle accidents were reported instead of missing out those that the rider is too embarrassed to admit to?

Uh oh. I can think of a few in that category. :whistle: Probably a bit late to report them now.

[Jantar]

....Which brings me to another point. How much worse would the stats be if all the single motorcycle accidents were reported instead of missing out those that the rider is too embarrassed to admit to?

They would be much worse if even the reported non-injury accidents were included. The data available only includes injury accidents, as these must be reported to the police. Non injury accidents where there is no damage to any third party property do not have to be reported, so are not included.

This applys to all classes of vehicles, not just motorcycles.

[mister.koz]

I've got an idea.

Let's take responsibility for our own actions.

Hit the nail on the head really.

Not to mention actions that are not our own but are avoidable.

[Ixion]

That's because it's fashionable to blame "cagers". Not many on here openly admit to coming off because they were "going too fast for the corner".

Which brings me to another point. How much worse would the stats be if all the single motorcycle accidents were reported instead of missing out those that the rider is too embarrassed to admit to?

Comparatively, we'd probably be better off. Most bike crashes do get reported , especially in urban areas, simply because some kind soul always calls an ambulance, which makes the crash an injury crash , even if the conclusion is "you're fine a bit shaken up".

Whereas the majority of cage crashes , ranging from the supermarket carpark ding to the minor nose to tail don't get officially reported.

So more cage crashes go under the radar (proportionately) than bike crashes

[Fatjim]

A good point.

But, and I'm not disagreeing with you, because an off on a motorcycle usually ends up with some sort of injury then this they should be reported, however, the stats should be interpreted as such as well. Not, as in this case, cause unnecessary hysteria on the part of some people.

[Usarka]

Open your eyes Mike. Regardless of whether you think they sound great, we are being watched. Others think our stats are bad (and I don't disagree) and their opinion will count for more than yours or mine.

Yes we are being watched. They are reading KB.

However you are aggressively airing your views in such a way as to get strong negative feedback which is completely counter to what you want them to be seeing.

IE - You are partly responsible for peoples negative views on motorcyclists.

Captain engage ignore, warp factor now. Here's one biker that agrees we need to buck up our ideas, but isn't listening to you anymore....:bye:

[Katman]

Yes we are being watched. They are reading KB.

However you are aggressively airing your views in such a way as to get strong negative feedback which is completely counter to what you want them to be seeing.



I disagree.

If more motorcyclists were to make it publicly clear that there are many of us that take this issue very seriously I believe it would work very much in our favour.

(And if you're suggesting I'm being aggressive in this thread I'd recommend you get yourself some HTFU pills).

[Fatjim]

Mate, do you actually read other peoples posts? He's put you on ignore!

[Katman]

Mate, do you actually read other peoples posts? He's put you on ignore!

Do you seriously think he'll be able to resist peeking?

:msn-wink:

[The Pastor]

KiwiBiker is full of motorcyclists who believe that their greatest enemy on the road is car drivers.

When will we start to realise that it is ourselves that have the greatest potential to be our own worst enemy?
same shit differnt day!

[Sully60]

the SV allows me to travel without costing a small fortune in petrol. Even if I am only cruising along at 110kph it still beats being in a car any day.

So why do you feel the need to ride a 1000 rather than a 650?
The 650 does all of those things and still has a nice flexible engine, why the need for the extra 350ccs?

What was that about "measurement"?

[scumdog]

I've got an idea.

Let's take responsibility for our own actions.

Fuggoff Mr H.

This IS KB after all and we wouldn't have delightful threads like this if everbody followed your above advice.!!:jerry:

[Elysium]

So why do you feel the need to ride a 1000 rather than a 650?
The 650 does all of those things and still has a nice flexible engine, why the need for the extra 350ccs?

What was that about "measurement"?

Amen brother.

[Ocean1]

I've got an idea.

Let's take responsibility for our own actions.

Bazzar suggestion. How could yer average dude afford that?

Fookin' ridiculous idea.


Fuggoff Mr H.

This IS KB after all and we wouldn't have delightful threads like this if everbody followed your above advice.!!:jerry:

Now THERE’S entertainment worth paying for.


Not. :yawn:

[98tls]

So why do you feel the need to ride a 1000 rather than a 650?
The 650 does all of those things and still has a nice flexible engine, why the need for the extra 350ccs?

What was that about "measurement"? Saddlebags,backpack and pillon make a 650 feel like a 250 fwiw.

[Sully60]

Saddlebags make a 650 feel like a 250 fwiw.

He should go on a diet then.

[Hitcher]

Saddlebags,backpack and pillon make a 650 feel like a 250 fwiw.

You're riding the wrong 650. Two-up on Mrs H's Bandit bothers it not that much, actually. Indeed fannying around on the Bandit for a couple of months whilst waiting for the FJR to return from the US of A is probably what has tipped me in the direction of middleweight bikes. That doesn't explain my new-found fascination for v-twins though...

[AD345]

You're riding the wrong 650. Two-up on Mrs H's Bandit bothers it not that much, actually. Indeed fannying around on the Bandit for a couple of months whilst waiting for the FJR to return from the US of A is probably what has tipped me in the direction of middleweight bikes. That doesn't explain my new-found fascination for v-twins though...

Come to the dark side.....

(its cooler cos its outta the sun)

[98tls]

You're riding the wrong 650. Two-up on Mrs H's Bandit bothers it not that much, actually. Indeed fannying around on the Bandit for a couple of months whilst waiting for the FJR to return from the US of A is probably what has tipped me in the direction of middleweight bikes. That doesn't explain my new-found fascination for v-twins though... Just noticed that in your post,read a few articles on them with much interest,nice looking bike,so how are you finding it?Have you done a thread on it?As for riding the wrong 650 dunno really,ridden many of them in my years and didnt like any of them 2 up though in saying that i hate having to ride 2 up full-stop but the odd time theres no way out,hell ive tried everything including offering to pay bus fare and meet them there.:innocent:

[Kickaha]

The problem here is that most non fatal accidents that people talk about are not the fault of the rider, and dead riders opinions don't count. For example the number of "cager didn't see me" threads vastly outnumber the "I was going to fast for the corner" threads.


I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of non fatal single bike accidents where the rider was at fault that aren't reported though

Oh yeah, letter to the Editor from the Chch press

[Katman]

Oh yeah, letter to the Editor from the Chch press

And I imagine that sentiment is being echoed across the country by residents of every stretch of road that is heavily frequented by motorcyclists.

It stuns me that there still are motorcyclists who don't see that there's any problem.

:weird:

[Ixion]

As they have been so echoed these 100 years past.

I've seen that letter in the papers every year that I've been riding. :yawn:

There is nothing that bikers could do (short of giving away motorcycling altogether) that would make those people happy.

Such people are like sheep - they must always be bleating about something.

I refuse to pattern any aspect of my life round the dreary constraints of such people.

[Katman]

As they have been so echoed these 100 years past.

I've seen that letter in the papers every year that I've been riding. :yawn:

There is nothing that bikers could do (short of giving away motorcycling altogether) that would make those people happy.

Such people are like sheep - they must always be bleating about something.

I refuse to pattern any aspect of my life round the dreary constraints of such people.

Really?

To be mentioned in the same breath as boy racers doesn't concern you at all?

Considering the attention and legislation that boy racers have attracted over recent years, it should.

[saul]

Really?

To be mentioned in the same breath as boy racers doesn't concern you at all?

Considering the attention and legislation that boy racers have attracted over recent years, it should.

You should fuck of Im sick off your condesending rhetoric

[Ixion]

I'd lay heavy odds that the woman doesn't see one boy racer a year. To such as her anyone who does not subscribe to their dreary insipid beige Corolla world (with new washing machine the highlight of her year) , and drives a car, is a boy racer.

It is the bleating of the sheeple : "waah weah boy racer waah waah bikies waah waah". There is nothing any of us can do about it. So I ignore it as I ignore many other things that I wish were not so, but which I can do nothing about. To silence her bleating would be to abandon and deny everything that makes life worth living for me (and many other bikers). Not just bikes of course: she and her sisters have many many other things they go 'waah waah" about and which they would insist we abandon - principally anything that is joyful, fun or liberating.

[Katman]

You should fuck of Im sick off your condesending rhetoric

Let me guess - you typed that whole post without the use of a dictionary?

Bravo (except for the spelling mistakes).

:tugger:

[Katman]

To silence her bleating would be to abandon and deny everything that makes life worth living for me

What a load of shit Ixion. Nobody's asking you to abandon anything. I hate to burst your bubble but I don't imagine you as one of the motorcyclists that are creating the problem.

[scumdog]

I'd lay heavy odds that the woman doesn't see one boy racer a year. To such as her anyone who does not subscribe to their dreary insipid beige Corolla world (with new washing machine the highlight of her year) , and drives a car, is a boy racer.

It is the bleating of the sheeple : "waah weah boy racer waah waah bikies waah waah". There is nothing any of us can do about it. So I ignore it as I ignore many other things that I wish were not so, but which I can do nothing about. To silence her bleating would be to abandon and deny everything that makes life worth living for me (and many other bikers). Not just bikes of course: she and her sisters have many many other things they go 'waah waah" about and which they would insist we abandon - principally anything that is joyful, fun or liberating.

But people of that ilk vote - and they are numerous, and they very likely can be duped by vote-catching (and job assuring) politicians who utter the appealing rhetoric at the above voter..

And I bet that type out-number those who ride motorbikes - who also care to keep an eye on politics and law-changes.

[98tls]

And I imagine that sentiment is being echoed across the country by residents of every stretch of road that is heavily frequented by motorcyclists.

It stuns me that there still are motorcyclists who don't see that there's any problem.

:weird: Possibly cause we live in a country where its acceptable to live in the same street as p-houses and do nothing,hey ive even read threads on here where guys are living next door to people abusing there partners and children but still they do nothing.

[PirateJafa]

What a load of shit Ixion. Nobody's asking you to abandon anything. I hate to burst your bubble but I don't imagine you are one of the motorcyclists that are creating the problem.

Are you kidding? Even I can't keep up with Ixion through the twisties, and he does the meanest skids I've yet seen. And his car goes "Omph Omph Omph" when he drives around.

He is truely someone we can all aspire to be more like.

[Ixion]

Really?

To be mentioned in the same breath as boy racers doesn't concern you at all?

Considering the attention and legislation that boy racers have attracted over recent years, it should.


What a load of shit Ixion. Nobody's asking you to abandon anything. I hate to burst your bubble but I don't imagine you are one of the motorcyclists that are creating the problem.

Seems to me you are.

But my point is that if every motorcyclist that ever went through that village (or whatever it is) went through in the most exemplary fashion, observing every road rule and tenet of courtesy, with engine muffled to the point of inaudibility, she would still whinge and complain.

You are arguing that all of us (because your strictures are directed to us all) must in some way change to suit her bigotry. I decline to do so.

If I were riding through the village I would (I hope) do so at a reasonable pace (ie , quite slow). I say I hope because I do not know the area. It is possible that this place consists of two holiday homes both half a kilometre from the road, and the riders do not even realise they are there. I have seen that before. A couple of houses, the road posted for 100kph , and the inhabitants bitch. But, even there if asked by whatever means I would slow down. It is a simple courtesy. But I do not for a moment imagine that would satisfy her.

Our very presence is an insult to such people as her, because, just by being on the road, we manifestly reject the narrow bigotries and shallow conventions upon which their lives are based. They hate us, always have , always will, and nothing whatsoever we might do will change that.

[Katman]

But my point is that if every motorcyclist that ever went through that village (or whatever it is) went through in the most exemplary fashion, observing every road rule and tenet of courtesy, with engine muffled to the point of inaudibility, she would still whinge and complain.



Our very presence is an insult to such people as her, because, just by being on the road, we manifestly reject the narrow bigotries and shallow conventions upon which their lives are based. They hate us, always have , always will, and nothing whatsoever we might do will change that.

Bullshit.

Sorry Ixion, but if you are an indication of what BRONZ can offer us then BRONZ is as useless as tits on a nun.

[dipshit]

So why do you feel the need to ride a 1000 rather than a 650?
The 650 does all of those things and still has a nice flexible engine, why the need for the extra 350ccs?

What was that about "measurement"?


Nope, the shop insisted I take the 1000. "Oh go on sir, it's only another measly $500"

I did think the 650 would be fine and intended to buy one, but the salesman pointed out that the 1000 was only $500 more. I questioned running costs and he said there wouldn't be much difference.

At least I knew I wanted a V-twin that wasn't a full on sports bike and would be more happy to cruise along than a il4 that encourages you to wind them out to get the grin factor.

P.S.. I also didn't want a cruiser. I wanted a decent handling bike that would have plenty in reserve should I need it. Don't want to find myself too hot into a corner yet the running boards are already scraping! :sick:

[dipshit]

same shit differnt day!

Same shit differnt day...

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=89315

[dipshit]

I'll repeat the question again, you've stated what needs to be achieved, and I don't disagree with you or Steve - HOW do you effect the change?

By encouraging a change in attitude.

If speaking up only gets a couple of people to think about it, then at least it is a start.

[Blossom]

.

My attitude isn't perfect, but most would agree that not doing most of the above is a good start. I for one would like to see drunk driver's vehicles impounded and crushed for a first offence - but I'm biased, I view the empty places at my Christmas dinner table with less joy than all of you who haven't been affected by drunk drivers. My attitude clearly stinks.



your attitude is fine.............

if someone drink drives.........they lose the vehicle.........shouldn't matter whose it is..........burn it.crushit.sell it. blowitup.............people would think way harder if there were actual real consequences to them drink driving.:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[YellowDog]

Yup, perceived peer pressure has a huge influence. A lot of us can ride badly without any encouragment, be it real of psycological.

[98tls]

By encouraging a change in attitude.

If speaking up only gets a couple of people to think about it, then at least it is a start. Mate for a $1 a day you could make a real difference.:gob:

[Elysium]

Seems to me you are.

But my point is that if every motorcyclist that ever went through that village (or whatever it is) went through in the most exemplary fashion, observing every road rule and tenet of courtesy, with engine muffled to the point of inaudibility, she would still whinge and complain.


People like her remind me of those idiots who bought million dollar apartments in Auckland or somewhere and complained about a church that's been sitting near for a hundred years ringing it's bell on a Sunday.

[Hitcher]

To be mentioned in the same breath as boy racers doesn't concern you at all?

I am not so insecure as to allow myself to be labeled by others' prejudices.

[Katman]

I am not so insecure as to allow myself to be labeled by others' prejudices.

:brick:

Read this slowly........

What about if someone else (someone whose job it is to make rules and regulations) labels you as such?

(This is like trying to teach algebra to a special needs class sometimes).

[Ixion]

People like her remind me of those idiots who bought million dollar apartments in Auckland or somewhere and complained about a church that's been sitting near for a hundred years ringing it's bell on a Sunday.

Not entirely. I suspect that in her case the church has been ringing its bell more often (figuratively speaking)

What she wants of course is that there should be no traffic through her little patch. Which is what we all want. All of us would like it if the road we live on was closed to traffic, except, of course, for our own vehicles. It would be so much quieter, children could safely play on the road etc etc (and , indeed, I recall as a very small boy , a world where that was the case - a dozen vehicles went down to the wharf each morning, a dozen came back each evening and the rest of the day there was never a vehicle to be seen ). But the world today is not like that. And we must all put up with the pressures and stresses inherent in modern society.

She blames "boy racers" and "mad bikies" for reckless behaviour. But it is unrealistic and impractical for the car drivers and motorcyclists to be expected to disappear. Not to use the road at all (or , of course , any road , because every road has such a polemicist ).

I think there is a very telling point in that letter. She says that the police are unable to take any action against these reckless riders and drivers because " There are not enough straights to calibrate their instruments". Which is complete nonsense of course. I can just see, in my minds eye the hapless constable on the 'phone, hand over the mouth piece "Sarge, it's that dreadful woman again, complaining AGAIN about the traffic. She wants to know why we are not locking them all up. What can I say , I'm almost deaf with her shrieking". "Oh, f' blankety - tell her there isn't a enough straight bits to calibrate the equipment. Maybe that will shut her up". Clearly the police do not take her complaints seriously. That says much.
So why should I, we, any of us, be expected to amend our lives to suit her bigotry?

If reasonable people make a reasonable complaint about unreasonable behaviour I will amend my own , where necessary and encourage others to do likewise. I do not think that is the case here . Mr Katman has chosen a bad example to berate us with.

[oldrider]

:brick:

Read this slowly........

What about if someone else (someone whose job it is to make rules and regulations) labels you as such?

(This is like trying to teach algebra to a special needs class sometimes).

Shit you are an arrogant pontificating son of a bitch Katman but feel free to continue to express yourself.

I enjoy a good laugh. :lol: John.

[Hitcher]

(This is like trying to teach algebra to a special needs class sometimes).

Don't be a patronising oaf. It does you little credit.

You outline a problem and offer no solution. If you want to martyr yourself for a cause yet offer nothing tangible, please don't be surprised if the majority of your audience doesn't get what it is you are on about.

Please remind me again. What exactly is the problem that you are so hell-bent on fixing?

[Katman]

Please remind me again. What exactly is the problem that you are so hell-bent on fixing?

I am trying to ensure that we don't ever see the day that the government seriously attempt to legislate us off the road.

:brick:

(And "patronising oaf" is a tad rich coming from you).

[Ixion]

Then you must be much younger than I thought. They have already tried it, more than once.

Fortunately, in those days , bikers were a bolder and braver bunch than today, and we fought back. Did you miss the reports of the mass meeting at the Auckland Town Hall, of the 'ride-ins' , of the mass ride to Parliament ?

I have not the slightest doubt that they will try again, and probably at no great remove. Whether they succeed or not will depend on whether the bikers of today have the balls of their predecessors. Or whether they prefer to roll over and wimp out.

Governments are bullies. Always. And bullies pick on the minority. The child who is bullied and bashed in the schoolyard does not receive his bruises because he deserves them. He receives them because he is perceived to be weak and a safe target.

The only way to deal with a bully is to stand up to him and fight back.

[Drogen Omen]

When bikers kill bikers.

That sounds like a good tv program... hehehe

kinda like When Animals Attack...

[Hitcher]

I am trying to ensure that we don't ever see the day that the government seriously attempt to legislate us off the road.

And what, pray tell, is your strategy? (assuming for the purposes of continuing a discussion that such an eventuality is conceivable)

[Katman]

And what, pray tell, is your strategy? (assuming for the purposes of continuing a discussion that such an eventuality is conceivable)

FFS Hitcher. Have you only just noticed my name on KB?

All along I have been trying to get people to take a good hard look at themselves and ask whether they are part of the problem or not.

I'm not trying to change people - I'm trying to get people to change themselves.

[Hitcher]

All along I have been trying to get people to take a good hard look at themselves and ask whether they are part of the problem or not.

Like that will work. This is Kiwi Biker. Everybody's technique and riding standards are exemplary. Nobody here is part of the problem. No wonder people disagree with you.

[Katman]

(assuming for the purposes of continuing a discussion that such an eventuality is conceivable)

Who would have ever thought a government would have the audacity to pass legislation telling us how we can and can't discipline our own children?

[Hitcher]

Who would have ever thought a government would have the audacity to pass legislation telling us how we can and can't discipline our own children?

Nobody wants to own up to being a child beater. There's a bit of a difference between that and something that puts ones own health and safety at risk more so than that of others.

[oldrider]

FFS Hitcher. Have you only just noticed my name on KB?

All along I have been trying to get people to take a good hard look at themselves and ask whether they are part of the problem or not.

I'm not trying to change people - I'm trying to get people to change themselves.

Cut the crap and focus on your message. (nothing wrong with the message, it's your packaging)

The art of diplomacy is: "Telling some cunt where to go and having them look forward to the trip"

Try being a little bit more "diplomatic" if your message is any good, it will sell it's self. :yes: John.

[AlBundy]

At least I knew I wanted a V-twin that wasn't a full on sports bike and would be more happy to cruise along than a il4 that encourages you to wind them out to get the grin factor.

What a load of shit!

ANY motorcycle is only as fast as the rider is prepared to turn the throttle.

The fact that you are riding the torque at lower rpm vs revving the motor more to get the same performance, sounds like a way to convince yourself you're not doing anything wrong...
I'd hazzard a guess you probably ride quicker using the torque than you would have if you had to rev an inlinefour...

[AlBundy]

Even if I am only cruising along at 110kph it still beats being in a car any day.

POT-KETTLE!!!


Lets get this straight.

I have never said "DO NOT EVER RIDE OVER THE SPEED LIMIT"..

Aaah, but if you want to talk the talk, you must walk the walk.

You cannot be all high and mighty on the subject, then be hypocrytical and do the opposite.

After all, this is about public perception, you are speeding and that same group of people sitting on the speed limit, is going to see you passing them and disappear into the distance...

[saul]

Let me guess - you typed that whole post without the use of a dictionary?

Bravo (except for the spelling mistakes).

:tugger:


Giggle yep :whistle: and I had one too many for the road. Apologies for the bad language:eek5:

[dipshit]

After all, this is about public perception, you are speeding and that same group of people sitting on the speed limit, is going to see you passing them and disappear into the distance...


This thread is about motorcyclists killing themselves every other weekend.

Slowing down in the sense of dropping it down from 9/10 to 8/10, or from 8/10 to 7/10 riding may help you live longer.

[Number One]

That sounds like a good tv program... hehehe

kinda like When Animals Attack...
When BIKERS GO BAD!!!! :lol:

[AlBundy]

This thread is about motorcyclists killing themselves every other weekend.

A convenient response to dodge the fact you don't practice what you preach...

[Katman]

A convenient response to dodge the fact you don't practice what you preach...

So what exactly is it that you think we're trying to preach?

[Hitcher]

It's moments like this I fully understand why some bikers want to kill other bikers...

[AlBundy]

So what exactly is it that you think we're trying to preach?

Look, you two grandstand all day long as if your shit doesn't stink. Don't admit to something when you are trying to change others' mentalities...

I get the message.

The road isn't a track.

Be respectful of other road users. It's NOT your road, it's there for everyone to use.

There are other users on it and ride in such a way as to expect the unexpected, be it a car pulling out of the driveway, or a cyclist weaving across the road, around a blind corner on a country road, to not doing silly shit like overtaking on blind crests etc.

Ride in such a way that IF you were to crash, the cars that you've just carved up/overtaken, won't ride straight past you, or be your worst nightmare when the cops arrive...

Ride in such a way, considering what the outcome may be, if another biker were coming the other way, if you were to overtake.

Riding on the road isn't a race. There are no points for anything except to get home in one piece.

Stay within your lane. We are on bikes, that's why we do it. Don't be straightlining corners so you can be faster... Locate yourself within your lane, so as to minimise the chances of anything bad happening.

Slow down when it counts... Don't assume it'll be okay... ie single lane bridges etc...

Something along those lines...

[Katman]

So, now I've sat and typed that out, please tell me how I scored... Or am I SO FAR off base, it's not even funny?

Fuck me, you have been paying attention.

Did you notice that you never added "never exceed the speed limit"?

That might just be because dipshit or I have never said it.

As for your remarkably accurate synopsis of our message - that is exactly how I ride (and I imagine dipshit would say likewise).

[AlBundy]

Fuck me, you have been paying attention.

Did you notice that you never added "never exceed the speed limit"?

That might just be because dipshit or I have never said that.

As for your remarkably accurate synopsis of our message - I can say that is exactly how I ride (and I imagine dipshit would say likewise).

I've never posted anything against your message.

It's your attitude and the way you convey the message that sucks.

You have zero people skills most of the time.

As for the speed limit thing... I'm not the one doing the preaching. I therefore, am absolved from any repercussions of mentioning it...:whistle:
You and Dipshit however, need to be more conscious of it, since you are the ones that are...:dodge:

[Katman]

You have zero people skills most of the time.

You sound like my wife.

[AlBundy]

You sound like my wife.

In this context, I'll take it as a compliment...

[Katman]

In this context, I'll take it as a compliment...

Yeah, but she sounds like a girl.

:msn-wink:

[Sully60]

You have zero people skills most of the time.



Exactly.




I'm not trying to change people - I'm trying to get people to change themselves.

You totally lack any skills required to change people Katman (at least online). It's been covered ad nauseum(sp) on here so I don't need to go any futher than to say even Hilter and Mussolini were charismatic people.

You want people to change, that's cool, how about you take some advice from that great orator Michael Jackson and start with the man in the mirror?

[Elysium]

Can we all conclude this thread is now at an end?

[PirateJafa]

Can we all conclude this thread is now at an end?

Yes, Godwin's Law has kicked in as of Sully's last post, this thread now has no more potential for anything.

[AlBundy]

Can we all conclude this thread is now at an end?

Wow, you make it sound as I'm the one that neede the lecture...

I didn't know I was that important.

Thanks for caring so much...

[Number One]

It's moments like this I fully understand why some bikers want to kill other bikers...

SING IT ON THE MOUNTAIN!!! AMEN BROTHER!!! :lol:


Yes, Godwin's Law has kicked in as of Sully's last post, this thread now has no more potential for anything.

Actually I disagree! There is always potential for MANCANDY - much better (even for you straight guys) than listening to the K&D show dribble on and on and on and on and on and on...

Oh and since I'm all about balance I chucked a few LADIES in too :cool:

[Elysium]

Wow, you make it sound as I'm the one that neede the lecture...

I didn't know I was that important.

Thanks for caring so much...

Other way around buddy :) Your last posts said what should have been said (or was said) at the begining of this thread. The rest of the thread was comedy.

[Maha]

I chucked a few LADIES in too :cool:

You chucked in a few lady's too???
Shouldn't that comment be in the Hot Hot Hot thread??....:sweatdrop

[Number One]

Shouldn't that be in the Hot Hot Hot thread??....:sweatdrop

I felt it was more needed in this thread...

Oh look I slipped and here's some more!!!! :lol:

BTW - I think Katman has me on ignore - he hasn't had to tell me to suck his cock in like ages :rolleyes: :rofl: :lol:

[PirateJafa]

The reference to Michael Jackson is what would have ended it for me.


So if I have 'invoked' Godwins law and ended the thread does that detract from the point I was making in the post?

Oh and Number One, go take a cold shower, honey:love:
Sorry mate. "...once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle itself is frequently referred to as Godwin's Law. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law#Corollaries_and_usage)"

[Madness]

..........

[PirateJafa]

I wanted YOU answer the question not Wikipedia.
Didn't you know the Wikipedia is always right. Always. Regardless of any logic. It is canon.

[Sully60]

Didn't you know the Wikipedia is always right. Always. Regardless of any logic. It is canon.

Which basically tells me you have zero capacity to think for yourself and form your own opinions.
If I compared you with Katman would I invoke another internet 'law' about comparing sheep with obdurate individuals?

[Kickaha]

But wait there's more

I'm ordering my transponder right now

[Katman]

But wait there's more





But, but, but..........

They're all of them mad





(My apologies to Ixion for exercising artistic license).

[oldrider]

Look, you two grandstand all day long as if your shit doesn't stink. Don't admit to something when you are trying to change others' mentalities...

I get the message.

The road isn't a track.

Be respectful of other road users. It's NOT your road, it's there for everyone to use.

There are other users on it and ride in such a way as to expect the unexpected, be it a car pulling out of the driveway, or a cyclist weaving across the road, around a blind corner on a country road, to not doing silly shit like overtaking on blind crests etc.

Ride in such a way that IF you were to crash, the cars that you've just carved up/overtaken, won't ride straight past you, or be your worst nightmare when the cops arrive...

Ride in such a way, considering what the outcome may be, if another biker were coming the other way, if you were to overtake.

Riding on the road isn't a race. There are no points for anything except to get home in one piece.

Stay within your lane. We are on bikes, that's why we do it. Don't be straightlining corners so you can be faster... Locate yourself within your lane, so as to minimise the chances of anything bad happening.

Slow down when it counts... Don't assume it'll be okay... ie single lane bridges etc...

Something along those lines...

Don't forget the bit about leaving ourselves open to legislators, legislating us out of exsistance!

In support of Katman on this subject, I heard Michael Laws (Wanker) making just that suggestion on Radio Live yesterday morning!

It was in reference to the accident between bikers at Taitapu (Christchurch) the other day!

We tend to shoot the messenger when his message is overpowered by by the unpalitable within his presentation. :eek5: Funny that! John.

[scumdog]

But wait there's more

I'm ordering my transponder right now


That second letter hits the nail right on the head....:yes: