Road crash investigations?

[Horse]

As you may have noticed, there are a couple of active threads going at the moment about recent motorcycle crashes. And in the context of those discussions is the suggestion that there should be no discussion of blame until some future time when an accident investigation is completed and a report produced.

So where are these accident reports? I know I can find detailed analysis of rail, air, and marine accidents at http://www.taic.org.nz/ - but are road crash investigations uniformly made public? Are they posted online anywhere? An admittedly cursory search of teh googletubes doesn't turn up anything useful.

[Patrick]

Transit New Zealand (or whatever they call themselves now) have it all, I believe...

[cowboyz]

of specific crashes and the cause?

[Ixion]

As you may have noticed, there are a couple of active threads going at the moment about recent motorcycle crashes. And in the context of those discussions is the suggestion that there should be no discussion of blame until some future time when an accident investigation is completed and a report produced.

So where are these accident reports? I know I can find detailed analysis of rail, air, and marine accidents at http://www.taic.org.nz/ - but are road crash investigations uniformly made public? Are they posted online anywhere? An admittedly cursory search of teh googletubes doesn't turn up anything useful.

Nope. And nope.And if they were they wouldn't be much help to anyone. They are done (if at all) by the police ; the majority of the time are just a facile response of "it wuz all cos of speeding"; and have a very narrow focus based around "who can we give a ticket too". Proper objective investigations along the lines of thos ein the aviation industry do not exist.

The frequent comment " wait until the accident report" thing on here is just code speak for "shut up, I don't want people talking about this sort of thing , it make me frightened, I'm going to stick my head deeper in this nice sand, it can never happen to me, not ever, so stop talking about it.

[Motu]

It seems to work too.....

[DougieNZ]

The frequent comment " wait until the accident report" thing on here is just code speak for "shut up, I don't want people talking about this sort of thing , it make me frightened, I'm going to stick my head deeper in this nice sand, it can never happen to me, not ever, so stop talking about it.

I can understand that people don't want to see endless speculation withaout all the facts..

But what is really frustrating is that what the "official" report comes out it is never posted here. Normally because the official report may show the rider in a bad light or perhaps show the "supporters" that there is another side to the story...

If you are prepared to speculate before the report, then why not publish it when it comes out?

[Fatjim]

I believe the serious crash unit is not very serious anymore :(. Also some of the "expert" witnesses the prosecution dredges up are even more of a joke.

[Hitcher]

If a road accident involves a coronial inquest, then road accident reports will be submitted as part of that inquest.

Road accidents are crime scenes, and the accident report probably fulfills the same requirements as a crime scene investigation report, in helping some Sergeant somewhere decide whether or not the Police should press charges. If charges are pressed, then that report should be discoverable by a defence attorney, given that it forms the basis of evidence against an accused person.

If charges are not pressed, then goodness knows whether some wonk somewhere in Wellington receives such documentation to pore over as part of their considered and thorough analysis of road safety matters. I suspect not, given a strong aversion against data sharing between the different arms of the public service.

[Jantar]

As I understand, full road accidents reports are prepared, and do form part of the evidence in a coronor's inquest. They are available if an OIA request is made, but they aren't published in any publicly available form (eg online).

Ixions comment of
the majority of the time are just a facile response of "it wuz all cos of speeding"; is very close to the mark. One accident here in Central Otago, 3 winters ago, had a car slide on black ice. The car was travelling too slow on a correctly cambered bend and slid off the road on the inside of the bend. Other traffic that was travelling just a wee bit faster negotiated the bend OK (as did I on my GS1200 a few minutes later). The attending constable ticked the box for inappropriate speed, and the driver was ticketed for careless driving - too fast for the conditions. He did get off, but that accident was, and is, included in the statistics as "speeding".

[Grahameeboy]

As I understand, full road accidents reports are prepared, and do form part of the evidence in a coronor's inquest. They are available if an OIA request is made, but they aren't published in any publicly available form (eg online).

Ixions comment of is very close to the mark. One accident here in Central Otago, 3 winters ago, had a car slide on black ice. The car was travelling too slow on a correctly cambered bend and slid off the road on the inside the bend. Other traffic that was travelling just a wee bit faster negotiated the bend OK (as did I on my GS1200 a few minutes later). The attending constable ticked the box for inappropriate speed, and the driver was ticketed for careless driving - too fast for the conditions. He did get off, but that accident was, and is, included in the statistics as "speeding".

I wondered what the charges would have been if the guy had been speeding....the same maybe.

You will find that 4% of accidents will be truely related to excessive speed...bit like they say that 30% of accidents are caused by drunk driving but don't point out that the biggest cause of accidents ie 70% are sober drivers....

[FJRider]

I can understand that people don't want to see endless speculation withaout all the facts..

But what is really frustrating is that what the "official" report comes out it is never posted here. Normally because the official report may show the rider in a bad light or perhaps show the "supporters" that there is another side to the story...

If you are prepared to speculate before the report, then why not publish it when it comes out?

Speculation as such is not the issue, it is accusations and implications in those speculations. Basicly, found guilty before the trial.

[FJRider]

I wondered what the charges would have been if the guy had been speeding....the same maybe.

You will find that 4% of accidents will be truely related to excessive speed...bit like they say that 30% of accidents are caused by drunk driving but don't point out that the biggest cause of accidents ie 70% are sober drivers....

So if sobriety was outlawed... 70% of those accidents wouldn't happen... ???
Or is idiocy the cause of sobriety... or vice versa...

[Grahameeboy]

So if sobriety was outlawed... 70% of those accidents wouldn't happen... ???
Or is idiocy the cause of sobriety... or vice versa...

Bugger if I know......

[portokiwi]

:jerry::jerry::jerry::doctor:

[Patrick]

of specific crashes and the cause?


Nope. And nope.And if they were they wouldn't be much help to anyone. They are done (if at all) by the police ; the majority of the time are just a facile response of "it wuz all cos of speeding"; and have a very narrow focus based around "who can we give a ticket too". Proper objective investigations along the lines of thos ein the aviation industry do not exist.

The frequent comment " wait until the accident report" thing on here is just code speak for "shut up, I don't want people talking about this sort of thing , it make me frightened, I'm going to stick my head deeper in this nice sand, it can never happen to me, not ever, so stop talking about it.

Cowboyz - seen reprots and flashy documents issued by "Roadsafe" and Transit NZ (or whatever they are now) and others... Accident "black spots" are easily identified and targetted as a result, as are Fatal black spots... Specific accidents, maybe not, but the causes are all stats captured from TCR's.

Ix...

Words fail me. The "cause" is often spotted and detailed.

"It was all coz of speeding".....:no:

Where is that "Tui" Smilie....


... One accident here in Central Otago, 3 winters ago, had a car slide on black ice. The car was travelling too slow on a correctly cambered bend and slid off the road on the inside of the bend. Other traffic that was travelling just a wee bit faster negotiated the bend OK (as did I on my GS1200 a few minutes later).... .

Me thinks that the driver was bull shitting... hence the cause was determined... Why couldn't he negotiate it at a slower speed when you and others could, at slightly higher speed???

[The Stranger]

BRONZ did try to get hold of the data used to compile the published statistics.
This was not forthcoming. Although it would have been possible to obtain it under the official information act the cost was prohibitive.

One wonders why they were reluctant to release the data, however we know they have a history of NOT releasing data that doesn't concur with thier pre-determined conclusions.

[Nasty]

I should be receiving a copy of the serious crash report regarding Grubs accident. I already have the autopsy ...

They have said that I will recieve a copy ... and as in my tour report (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=90018) - I will share appropriate details.

[86GSXR]

BRONZ did try to get hold of the data used to compile the published statistics.
This was not forthcoming. Although it would have been possible to obtain it under the official information act the cost was prohibitive.

One wonders why they were reluctant to release the data, however we know they have a history of NOT releasing data that doesn't concur with thier pre-determined conclusions.

What the hell is up with that then? As has been pointed out, most forms of transportation incidents and accidents are freely and easily available for the education of all users. To not publish information that WILL educate others is irresponsible. It is said that the rules are written in the blood of others, and in aviation, reading the reports is considered a vital part of the no blame safety culture. Somethings not quite right with land transport if that information is not available.


I should be receiving a copy of the serious crash report regarding Grubs accident. I already have the autopsy ...

They have said that I will recieve a copy ... and as in my tour report (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=90018) - I will share appropriate details.

Exactly. Investigation reports are a great thing and should be available to all.

[The Stranger]

What the hell is up with that then? As has been pointed out, most forms of transportation incidents and accidents are freely and easily available for the education of all users. To not publish information that WILL educate others is irresponsible. It is said that the rules are written in the blood of others, and in aviation, reading the reports is considered a vital part of the no blame safety culture. Somethings not quite right with land transport if that information is not available.



Exactly. Investigation reports are a great thing and should be available to all.

As I noted they have shall we say "unusual" priorities.
Policy is to NOT educate drivers. Educated drivers drive faster and as we know speed kills ergo the better a driver the greater the mess. Apparently driving is the only human endeavour where the better the education the worse the outcome.

Remember the side intrusion beam fiasco? They held back a report that showed our cars were inferior to other countries (possibly resulting in loss of life) so that speed could be blamed for our high road toll when compared to other countries.

They held back a report that noted that driving with your seat back 1" would significantly reduce head injury and death in cars. Why? That didn't support speed as a cause therefore was simply noise.

Speaking to a motorcycle cop just before christmas he noted that crests and rear brake lock ups were featuring in recent motorcycle deaths. IF this is so (I have no reason to doubt him), wouldn't it be handy for us to know this?

[Quasievil]

As you may have noticed, there are a couple of active threads going at the moment about recent motorcycle crashes.

Yeah and frankly they are boring as fuck, not to mention full of self rightesness and "we know all that crap" comments.

And yeah im grumpy no break for two years finally get away and its fucken raining at the beach

[86GSXR]

As I noted they have shall we say "unusual" priorities.
Policy is to NOT educate drivers. Educated drivers drive faster and as we know speed kills ergo the better a driver the greater the mess. Apparently driving is the only human endeavour where the better the education the worse the outcome.

Remember the side intrusion beam fiasco? They held back a report that showed our cars were inferior to other countries (possibly resulting in loss of life) so that speed could be blamed for our high road toll when compared to other countries.

They held back a report that noted that driving with your seat back 1" would significantly reduce head injury and death in cars. Why? That didn't support speed as a cause therefore was simply noise.

Speaking to a motorcycle cop just before christmas he noted that crests and rear brake lock ups were featuring in recent motorcycle deaths. IF this is so (I have no reason to doubt him), wouldn't it be handy for us to know this?

Very handy! Knowing this, and other causes, would save lives, no doubt about it! In a bit of a rush at the mo, so haven't searched the LTSA site thoroughly, but check this out. It's a direct link to honest and open safety reporting in aviaion. Can't see why road accidents shouldn't be dealt to in the same way?

http://www.caa.govt.nz/safety_info/fatal_accident_reports.htm


Yeah and frankly they are boring as fuck, not to mention full of self rightesness and "we know all that crap" comments.

And yeah im grumpy no break for two years finally get away and its fucken raining at the beach

Bugger. Bloody weather! Read some of the above reports perhaps, they make for very interesting reading and show exactly what went wrong.

[DougieNZ]

Transit NZ (or whatever they are now)

NZ Transport Agency at at 1 August 2008

[Ixion]

Just so. I , and many others , have been arguing for years for an aviation style approach to road accidents. One aimed at determining what happened, and the causes of the cause, and if possible suggesting ways to prevent such a thing happening in the future. Rather than the present blame oriented, 'who can we give the ticket to' approach. It won't happen.

The police approach is based on the premise that motorists should be controlled by laws and rules. The laws and rules are perfect and if all motorists followed them there could never be any accident. Therefore , if an accident has occured, someone has broken the rules, and should (if still alive) be punished. There is no need to consider why the accident occurred, merely to figure out what rule was broken. Nor is there any need for education or training for the motorists, since all they need to know is what the rules are, and then obey them .

[Nasty]

Just so. I , and many others , have been arguing for years for an aviation style approach to road accidents. One aimed at determining what happened, and the causes of the cause, and if possible suggesting ways to prevent such a thing happening in the future. Rather than the present blame oriented, 'who can we give the ticket to' approach. It won't happen.

The no blame no shame theory of investigation is a great one used for many years in the aviation world .. its being adapted for health .. and we could learn so much more for road accidents if we followed the avaiation theories of investigation of finding a problem ... even if its a systemic cause and then addressing the issue.

[Jantar]

...
Me thinks that the driver was bull shitting... hence the cause was determined... Why couldn't he negotiate it at a slower speed when you and others could, at slightly higher speed???

This driver did not bullshit. He was a neighbour of mine (now deceased unfortunately), and I stopped just past the bend to see if he was OK. The road is steeply cambered at that point on the inside of the road, with not much camber on the outside of the bend, it is a tightish bend, and was even difficult to stand on the road surface at the point of the accident. Don also knew this road (hey, its the one we live on) and that particular bend is one we all treat with respect. Don just went too slow, maybe he touched his brakes, but he didn't recall doing so, next thing he was sliding to the inside of the bend. I'd like to know how excessive speed can cause that on black ice.

[Patrick]

And yeah im grumpy no break for two years finally get away and its fucken raining at the beach

So your grumpiness is to blame then... :angry:


Just so. I , and many others , have been arguing for years for an aviation style approach to road accidents. One aimed at determining what happened, and the causes of the cause, and if possible suggesting ways to prevent such a thing happening in the future. Rather than the present blame oriented, 'who can we give the ticket to' approach. It won't happen.

The police approach is based on the premise that motorists should be controlled by laws and rules. The laws and rules are perfect and if all motorists followed them there could never be any accident. Therefore , if an accident has occured, someone has broken the rules, and should (if still alive) be punished. There is no need to consider why the accident occurred, merely to figure out what rule was broken. Nor is there any need for education or training for the motorists, since all they need to know is what the rules are, and then obey them .

A vast majority are committed because of a rule break, hence the ticket. When it is a true "accident," then no further action for the driver is taken.


This driver did not bullshit. He was a neighbour of mine (now deceased unfortunately), and I stopped just past the bend to see if he was OK. The road is steeply cambered at that point on the inside of the road, with not much camber on the outside of the bend, it is a tightish bend, and was even difficult to stand on the road surface at the point of the accident. Don also knew this road (hey, its the one we live on) and that particular bend is one we all treat with respect. Don just went too slow, maybe he touched his brakes, but he didn't recall doing so, next thing he was sliding to the inside of the bend. I'd like to know how excessive speed can cause that on black ice.

More info helps sometimes. A good outcome, although bad to hear he didn't make it...

[86GSXR]

Just so. I , and many others , have been arguing for years for an aviation style approach to road accidents. One aimed at determining what happened, and the causes of the cause, and if possible suggesting ways to prevent such a thing happening in the future. Rather than the present blame oriented, 'who can we give the ticket to' approach. It won't happen.

The police approach is based on the premise that motorists should be controlled by laws and rules. The laws and rules are perfect and if all motorists followed them there could never be any accident. Therefore , if an accident has occured, someone has broken the rules, and should (if still alive) be punished. There is no need to consider why the accident occurred, merely to figure out what rule was broken. Nor is there any need for education or training for the motorists, since all they need to know is what the rules are, and then obey them .

I wonder if that approach will ever work on this planet. It convieniently bypasses the biggest variable of all, the human factor.


The no blame no shame theory of investigation is a great one used for many years in the aviation world .. its being adapted for health .. and we could learn so much more for road accidents if we followed the avaiation theories of investigation of finding a problem ... even if its a systemic cause and then addressing the issue.

Yes, and it works. People respond quite well when not blamed, they take responsibility.


A vast majority are committed because of a rule break, hence the ticket. When it is a true "accident," then no further action for the driver is taken.

Yes, no legislation will ever work against fatigue, emotion, or just plain human fraility.

[vgcspares]

On the Traffic Crash Report side of things it seems they have become something of a revenue earning mechanism (like everything else), as copies have been frequently refused to people involved in an accident so that their insurance company has little choice but to spend $55 to get one ...

[SPman]

Me thinks that the driver was bull shitting... hence the cause was determined... Why couldn't he negotiate it at a slower speed when you and others could, at slightly higher speed???Perhaps for the same reason that, should you go too slowly up the Mountain Access rd after a snow dump, you'll slither to a stop, (and then slide slowly off the road) but if you keep your momentum up, you can often get up without chains.......(done it often)
Mind you, you're probably right.....