6-speed gearboxes. [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

James Deuce

3rd January 2009, 17:21

On the HD big blocks, 6th gear at legal motorway speeds feels just horrible. Total overkill.

Most big bore V-Twins drop out of their sweet range at 100 km.hr and 6th gear making them go all lumpy, crank flexy, and strained. Like prune juice with stones in.

Owl

3rd January 2009, 17:35

I would happily go one less on the S3! Probably just easier to share a Daytona box than create a new one?:rolleyes:

AD345

3rd January 2009, 17:47

My Kingpin has 6 gears but the 6th one is a true overdrive (0.84:1 final drive).

I love it, nice to lope along in, enough torque to cope with motorway or wide-open road riding. I can drop into 5th for anything else and stick there all day as well if needed (the 8-ball only has 5 gears with the same engine).

I dunno if the Harleys have a 6th gear or an overdrive so can't really comment on them (all the H-D's I rode were 5 speeds)

jrandom

3rd January 2009, 17:58

Big Dave

3rd January 2009, 18:04

Well, I like having sixth gear on the GSX1400. 3,000 rpm at 100kph.

Of course, at that point, she's already putting out about 85 foot pounds at the wheel. Perhaps machines like HDs that are a little weaker down low don't fare so well.

:2thumbsup

They have other advantages.

Would it make any difference if the final ratio was the same and it took less clicks to get there?

jrandom

3rd January 2009, 18:07

Would it make any difference if the final ratio was the same and it took less clicks to get there?

It certainly would for the racing I'm doing on it at the moment.

Big Dave

3rd January 2009, 18:12

It certainly would for the racing I'm doing on it at the moment.

Yeah - that's fair enough - but only a very small % of road bikes hit the track regularly.

I pose the question because some of the Buell heads are asking for 6 speeds on the 12X.

Nooooo I cry - leaving it in 3rd and sports riding through the twisties in some of the major attraction of the bike - a beautiful thing.

To have to row it between third and 4th would rooon it.

And apart from that it is just unnecessary. Then I extrapolate (he'll go blind) and thingk 'what bikes have i ridden that 'needed it'?

Still thinking.

jrandom

3rd January 2009, 18:16

I pose the question because some of the Buell heads are asking for 6 speeds on the 12X.

Nooooo I cry - leaving it in 3rd and sports riding through the twisties in some of the major attraction of the bike - a beautiful thing.

To have to row it between third and 4th would rooon it.

I suppose that's very much a matter of personal taste.

Got a lot to do with the characteristics of the engine in question, too, dunnit. Have the 12X six-speed advocates proposed an actual set of ratios that they think would work better?

Big Dave

3rd January 2009, 18:19

I suppose that's very much a matter of personal taste.

Got a lot to do with the characteristics of the engine in question, too, dunnit. Have the 12X six-speed advocates proposed an actual set of ratios that they think would work better?

Not really - just interweeb dribble.
A lot are doing the conversion that puts a XB9 primary drive on. Lowers all rations by 'about a gear' - not for me and here either.

Coyote

3rd January 2009, 18:22

10 speed is the way to go.

jrandom

3rd January 2009, 18:22

Not really - just interweeb dribble.
A lot are doing the conversion that puts a XB9 primary drive on. Lowers all rations by 'about a gear' - not for me and here either.

My take on it would be, the design engineers probably knew what they were doing.

Pretty silly to put a close-ratio gearbox on a ditch pump motor. (No disrespect meant, some of my best friends are ditch pump motors, etc.)

If they want six gears on a Buell they can always buy an 1125R, eh?

Motu

3rd January 2009, 18:24

I'm wondering why the R65 has 5 speeds - and this is the small capacity short stroke rev happy boxer.I need to change gear too often....I feel I shouldn't have to,it's got the torque spread to cope.Two up with loaded panniers and top box pushing a screen and it would be a different story.

Grunty cars that went from 3 speed to four speed never felt very comfortable to drive.MkIII Zephyr,FJ40 Landcruiser are a couple of good examples - the 3 speed versions were a much more relaxed drive.(I know the MkIII didn't have 3 on the tree,but the MkII did)

Big Dave

3rd January 2009, 18:25

My take on it would be, the design engineers probably knew what they were doing.

Pretty silly to put a close-ratio gearbox on a ditch pump motor. (No disrespect meant, some of my best friends are ditch pump motors, etc.)

If they want six gears on a Buell they can always buy an 1125R, eh?

indeeddeedy

rat biker 08

3rd January 2009, 19:30

Hell i have two older bikes and thay both have 6 its good . Low mid for hills high for speed and i like it .:bleh:

Subike

3rd January 2009, 20:06

why update the gearbox when a simple rear ratio change can do the same thing.
On my shaft drive XS11, by changing the diff to an XS850 diff gave the same result as adding a 6th gear.
OK the initial take off from standstill is slower, but once you moving, well, the difference is unseen till you get into 5th and can cruze at a lower engine speed than the origional ratio.
Improved ecconomy without loosing top end performance. A win win for me.
Tyre size and final ratios are easier to change than gearboxes.

tri boy

3rd January 2009, 20:20

BD's size 20 boot is just lazy :-)

Hitcher

3rd January 2009, 20:35

After a reasonably prolonged burst of riding on a six-speed bike, I invariably find myself looking for another cog when I get back on Big Yam. I agree with Big Dave's thesis that a sixth cog is overkill on a big grunty bike.

The Shiver has a gear position indicator, which I think is a must on any bike with six gears.

EJK

3rd January 2009, 20:46

How about double clutch system? Porshes got the new Doppelkupplung why not bikes?

...Yeah sorry I don't know how that works but hey Presto, humans got jet engine on a bike!

James Deuce

3rd January 2009, 20:49

How about double clutch system? Porshes got the new Doppelkupplung why not bikes?

...Yeah sorry I don't know how that works but hey Presto, humans got jet engine on a bike!
Different clutch for each alternate gear. Push or pull the lever and currently engaged clutch disengages and the next clutch engages bringing the required ratio into play.

McJim

3rd January 2009, 20:55

My 53hp bike has but 5 gears. 4,500rpm is where it cruises comfortably - any lower and it tends to lug a bit. 4,000 in 5th is about 120kph. Basically if I am in 5th then I know to watch for coppers. Tall gears.

warewolf

3rd January 2009, 21:08

Dunno that 6 gears is necessary for 65hp+ road bike. I would certainly trade one gear choice for a wider spread between 1st (usually too high) and 6th (usually too low).

The R1150GS with overdrive 6th was...err... "nice" to ride; very much an overdrive as a downchange was required for brisk acceleration close to 100-110km/h. The other 5 gears were useful, wouldn't want to lose one.

6 gears is probably a 'tick box' feature on big road bikes these days. Overdrive would make it worth it.

I would happily go one less on the S3! Probably just easier to share a Daytona box than create a new one?:rolleyes:The original Speed Triple dropped the 6th gear from the Daytona. It was later returned due to popular demand. If they kept the original spread and redistributed the ratios, maybe 5 speeds would've worked.

Big Dave

3rd January 2009, 21:42

BD's size 20 boot is just lazy :-)

There is some truth in it. Otherwise why am i on a perambulation device and why is it being over-complicated.

yod

3rd January 2009, 21:52

Like prune juice with stones in.

only a true geezer would know what this was like :laugh:

nudemetalz

3rd January 2009, 21:58

Even my "Ditch-Pump" Guzzi V11 Sport has 6 close ratios.
It has a lot of midrange so I also feel it's a little to keep with the "Sport" label marketing than anything else as it's entirely unnecessary.

Timber020

3rd January 2009, 22:03

Sport bikes have 6 so your able to get maximum horse to the floor for max performance while still having a ridable bike at many different speeds.
Italian bike and Harleys have them so they have some spares when one of the 6 break.

My mates ducati had a 11 shift gearbox from 1st to 6th. you started in first then hit neutral between first and second, then between second and third another neutral, then between third and forth another neutral.......you get the idea.

nudemetalz

3rd January 2009, 22:12

My mates ducati had a 11 shift gearbox from 1st to 6th. you started in first then hit neutral between first and second, then between second and third another neutral, then between third and forth another neutral.......you get the idea.

errr that makes mine an 8 speed gearbox then....... :rolleyes:

oldrider

3rd January 2009, 22:20

smoky

3rd January 2009, 22:27

Fo' or agin?

Agin; My 1200s bandit has 5, I tried the new bandit 1250 with a 6 speed; It has a better quicker torque range, smoother engine from the fuel injection, bla bla bla… but the 6th gear was a pain in the arse, just seem to be changing gear all the time.
The RPM at 120Klm’s is the same as 5th on my old Bandit
I prefer my old bandit to the new one simply because I can’t be bothered with a 6 speed when 5 does the trick well. I use the gears a lot, the 1200 is a torquey bike and pulls from down low very well, get it up in the higher revs and it goes like stink, it has great engine braking – it actually takes some of the fun out of the bike with a 6 speed.

scumdog

4th January 2009, 07:44

I rate them as complete overkill on a 65+hp road bike.
Why Harley did it I have no idea - they could get away with 3.

Fo' or agin?

A sheer frivolity and a marketing 'trend-setting' device.

Even 5th in my 'glide is long-legged enough, 3,000rpm = 110kmh.

Any longer in the legs would mean changing down to overtake and it gets 55mpg+ even two up already so another gear (*if overdrive) wouldn't achieve anything much.

*I gather H-D 6-speeds ARE longer legged than 5-speeds?

Stromble

4th January 2009, 07:58

I rate them as complete overkill on a 65+hp road bike.
Why Harley did it I have no idea - they could get away with 3.

Fo' or agin?

Used to have the old Cagiva Mito II in the UK years ago.. 7 speeds on a 125cc 2 stroke..!! now that was fun...

homer

4th January 2009, 08:15

need it or not , it allows for gearing change ....dosnt it?

James Deuce

4th January 2009, 08:21

*I gather H-D 6-speeds ARE longer legged than 5-speeds?

Uncomfortably so, IMO. It would be OK at 130+. On the Rocker I did all my motorway and open road riding in 5th. It felt like I was breaking it to lug it round in 6th.

jonbuoy

4th January 2009, 08:38

In NZ its probably overkill, nice on long motorway trips where your sat at 140kph + for hours on end.

Ixion

4th January 2009, 14:45

Dunno that 6 gears is necessary for 65hp+ road bike. ..

Speak for yourself. When the power band's only a coupla thousand rpm wide you need 6 speeds and more.

Swoop

4th January 2009, 15:45

The viffer has a 6 speed box and the 6th is an in-and-out affair most of the time. Unless at MACH2, it is a little under-utilised

Have to agree with you on that one Hitch....Sales divisions!....(Sigh):rolleyes:
The marketing department at HD? Surely they should stick to doing the branded business ties, handbags, hairdriers and microwave ovens and leave the mechanical areas to the engineers???

Perhaps the HD would be better off to have 5 gears and a reverse?

rideallday

4th January 2009, 17:01

The viffer has a 6 speed box and the 6th is an in-and-out affair most of the time. Unless at MACH2, it is a little under-utilised

The marketing department at HD? Surely they should stick to doing the branded business ties, handbags, hairdriers and microwave ovens and leave the mechanical areas to the engineers???

Perhaps the HD would be better off to have 5 gears and a reverse?

classic:laugh:

Just to be differant I like the 6th gear on my Harley when cruising along what passes for the national mototorway system.

I find on the Bandit though it encourouges speeding (intentional and otherwise.) and sometime drop back into 5th if its prudent to keep speeds down.:Police:

martybabe

4th January 2009, 17:45

Uncomfortably so, IMO. It would be OK at 130+. On the Rocker I did all my motorway and open road riding in 5th. It felt like I was breaking it to lug it round in 6th.

Spot on JD, I only ever put mine in sixth to see if the sixth gear light was still working.

At those ratios I think sixth is completely superfluous, you'd need a speed limit of about 80mph for it to be any use,as you said, isn't the wide spread speed limit in the USA 55 mph?

Big Dave

4th January 2009, 19:49

Perhaps the HD would be better off to have 5 gears and a reverse?

Smart men and women ride Harleys - not silly enough to park is so they need one.

Forest

4th January 2009, 21:00

The BMW R1200RT has a six-speed box.

The sixth gear is a bit too long for comfort at NZ road legal speeds. I suspect that it was intended for the German autobahns or transcontinental highways.

MaxCannon

4th January 2009, 21:03

I went from 5 on the GN to 6 on the ZZR400(and lots of Neutrals) to 6 on the Bandit.
Now the first two weren't 65BHP+ but the Bandit is.
I'd prefer 6th to be taller for better economy but as it is right now the ratios feel pretty good.
I thought the general idea with 6 gears was to get a close spacing so the engine is always in it it's optimal rev range.
Must get to a track and put this philosophy to the test.

ManDownUnder

4th January 2009, 21:06

The VTR only really needs the first 5 gears but long haul or higher speed sees 6th put to good use.

warewolf

4th January 2009, 21:37

When the power band's only a coupla thousand rpm wide you need 6 speeds and more.You could always buy another power band and keep a spare in case one breaks.

RentaTriumph

4th January 2009, 21:53

I rate them as complete overkill on a 65+hp road bike.
Why Harley did it I have no idea - they could get away with 3.

Fo' or agin?

Gears are like chicks I suppose. I would rather have more choice than limiting myself too a few :-).

pete376403

4th January 2009, 22:01

I put a 6 speed from an FZ750 into my sons FZR1000. (because the 5 speed was rooted and an FZ750 motor was available, no other reason).
He says its a lot better on the 'tukas, the ratios are closer so the revs don't drop so much between shifts. Not sure about the revs/speed ratio in top gear between the old 5 speed and the new 6 speed.

Slyer

4th January 2009, 22:37

I think we can all agree that 250s need 'em.
Argh so many gears, keeps you busy though.

xwhatsit

4th January 2009, 23:13

I think we can all agree that 250s need 'em.
Yup. I'll tell you guys all about it when I drop the 6-speed box I bought (from an XR250R) into my (5-speed) 250RS. I think it'll do well.

Point taken about 3rd gear and riding with the throttle -- TRX850, choose either 2nd or 3rd depending on the gauge of twisty and you can chop off your feet and left arm. A very different experience to what I'm used to.