THE corner in the Rainbow

[cooneyr]

On the 6th of April 2007 I was riding north through the Rainbow when I crashed into a ditch on the outside of a corner. Long story short I had to be extracted by a chopper as I had a broken neck. At the time I heard a bit of anecdotal evidence that the corner catches out a lot of people whether they are on two wheels or four. There was talk at the time of somehow marking/signing/altering the corner to try and stop the crashes but I thought there was a fair bit of stupidity on my behalf hence nothing was done.

On the 2nd of Jan this year a friend was riding to NN to participate in the Dusty Butt and crashed at the corner breaking his shoulder and doing other damage to himself. During the Dusty Butt another rider fell off and broke two ribs. This is despite a description of the corner during the Dusty Butt rider briefing.

It became clear from discussions during the Dusty Butt briefing and the gathering for the 1 day riders on the 4th, that there is a number of riders and drivers come to grief at this corner. Clearly I'm either not the only stupid rider out there or there are some serious issues with the corner.

As my wife and I were travelling south through the Rainbow on the 5th I decided to stop and talk to the Rainbow Station Manager about the corner and the potential for somehow making the corner more obvious with either signs, modifying the corner or the surrounding terrain. I also stopped to take a number of photos and dazzled 7 large stones and placed them on the outside of the corner as a warning for the Yamaha Safari Riders.

The Station Manager is not keen on installing a sign as it creates an expectation and raises issues around why other "dangerous" corners aren't sign posted. I've suggested some manipulation of the bushes at the corner and he is going to investigate it later this week.

The issues with the corner can be summarised as (in no particular order)
the corner has a significantly slower negotiating speed than those around it
the bush line goes straightish ahead giving the impression the corner is no where near as tight as it is
you cannot see the road downstream from the corner due to bushes
it is significantly off camber
there is a ditch about 1m deep immediately on the outside where people end up

So in summary it is hard to find the corner, it gives a false impression of the negotiating speed and it is very unforgiving.

I've attached 6 images of the corner including 5 photos that show the southern approach, i.e. heading north, to the corner.
The first image is from Google Earth and shows that the corner is significantly tighter than the preceding corners
The first photo shows that the corner appears to be reasonably open i.e. as open as the visible approach
The second photo is a little closer to the corner - you still cannot see where the road goes after the corner and it still appears to be reasonably open
The third is closer again and as above still appears to be reasonably open though there is an indicator off to the left starting to appear - just not very a very strong indicator. Also it appears at this point that the corner has heaps of camber.
The fourth photo is basically on the corner itself and it sill appears to have good camber, though it is possible to see that the camber is disappearing. It is becoming pretty clear that it is tighter than it previously appeared. Still cannot see the ditch on the outside either, not that this should be a defining point about the speed to negotiate the corner.
The fifth photo is the same as the second photo with my suggested modifications to the bushes.

Unfortunately I didn't take the very last photo in the sequence that shows how off camber the corner is. There is a good bit of video prepared by Transalper after my crash that shows the corner from a riders perspective. I'll ask TA to put it on youtube and provide a link.

If the Rainbow Station Manager is agreeable to modifying the bushes and is happy for us to do it, I'm keen to stick some tools in the Vitara and go for a drive in the near future. I'll keep all posted on the outcome using this thread.

Cheers R

[cooneyr]

Opps should have added the corner is located at S42 02.099 E172 54.062. This is an average of 100 recordings with a 5.2m accuracy.

Cheers R

[cynna]

thanks for the info. i will keep an eye out when im in there in the next couple of days

[NordieBoy]

Once you've gone over the brow with any sort of speed the bike is a bit unweighted and stopping is something to be done in the swamp...

[marks]

excuse my ignorance - I'm having trouble getting myself orientated

is this corner only a problem if you are going north from Hamner?

[clint640]

excuse my ignorance - I'm having trouble getting myself orientated

is this corner only a problem if you are going north from Hamner?

Yep, absolutely.

Good luck getting something done Ryan. From my exposure to OSH stuff I would suggest that any 'issues' from not having other random corners signposted would pale into insignificance compared with the issue of doing nothing about a known hazard that has caused serious harm on several occasions.

If something like that was happening on the 4x4/Enduro track on our family block at Reporoa for instance I'd be tacking up a sign quick smart. It's cheap & easy enough to be a total no-brainer.

...& even if all us motorcyclists start riding sensibly at all times through the Rainbow, what about the yobbo in the 4x4 coming the other way too hot & too wide when you're southbound?

Cheers
Clint

[Pedrostt500]

Well for the cost of a couple of fence posts, and a half sheet of 20mm ply some white house paint and a small can of black, a sighn would be very cheap. for the cost of less than $100 this could save alot of injuries and a $1000 an hr helecopter call out, The Station Manager says there are other corners that need attention to, these could be addressed in time.
Is this a private road, or a local council road?.
The sighnage does not need to be exspensive, as some warning is better than non.

[426crasher]

Lots of varied discussion about this corner,both here and the DB1k thread. Having now been very up close and intimate with said corner i'm in total agreement that something should be done. Ryan has summed up all the negative points of the corner very well, it just has too many bad points stacked against it. I would prefer it if it could be altered in a natural way like TA suggested, changing planting etc, to give a different visual aspect when approaching. If a sign was to be made out wood then i suppose it could be in keeping with the natural surroundings. The major plus point with a sighn is that it benefits all who use the route. I'm happy to join Ryan etc in going up there sometime to do alterations.

Cheers Tony

[426crasher]

Once you've gone over the brow with any sort of speed the bike is a bit unweighted and stopping is something to be done in the swamp...

Very valid point there, just as you need bite from your tyres they are pretty much skipping the surface.
The swamp certainly doe's the stopping stuff very well....as did the bank on the shoulder!!

[cooneyr]

Once you've gone over the brow with any sort of speed the bike is a bit unweighted and stopping is something to be done in the swamp...

The photo in your post shows another interesting point. The ditch is barely visible with the colour and length of the long grass.


Lots of varied discussion about this corner,both here and the DB1k thread. Having now been very up close and intimate with said corner i'm in total agreement that something should be done. Ryan has summed up all the negative points of the corner very well, it just has too many bad points stacked against it. I would prefer it if it could be altered in a natural way like TA suggested, changing planting etc, to give a different visual aspect when approaching. If a sign was to be made out wood then i suppose it could be in keeping with the natural surroundings. The major plus point with a sighn is that it benefits all who use the route. I'm happy to join Ryan etc in going up there sometime to do alterations.

Cheers Tony

I'd hope I can do a reasonable job of outlining the issues given my profession and who I work for :shutup:

For those who suggest a sign, I agree that the cost is minial and I'd happily put up the cash but I agree with he station manager that it will cause other issues and we dont really want to be poluting the back country with signs. The appeal of this type of road and terrain is the mimal human invasion.

If money was no issue and the damn RMA would go away a morning with an excavator (move the ditch away from the road) and some aggregate would do wonders. Problem is this is a private road so there is no financial assistance from the Government, and before anybody says what about the gate fees, I've been informed that the road runs at a loss. So the only realistic soultion option is vegitation removal/relocation. Fortunatly this is easily done.

Something will be done about this corner (it obviously needs it) but I want it to be done in such a way that the station manager doesnt get annoyed cause then we run the risk of loosing access all together. That to me would be the worst outcome of all.

Cheers R

[skidMark]

Or learn to ride? you dont ride roads above about 30-40% of your ability when you dont know them. Common sense isn't so common anymore is it. <_<

Could happily take that corner at 80-90 once you know the road, first time if you hit it at say 30 if you get into strife its easy to save, that particular bend even at 60 you could point the front into it and give her a handful of throttle to get you round.

[skidMark]

The photo in your post shows another interesting point. The ditch is barely visible with the colour and length of the long grass.






Ahhh you are meant to be weatching the road not the ditch, why do you need a visable ditch? incentive to stay on the road?

[Daffyd]

Two suggestions.

1) In my youth, (way back then,) there used to be a sign that said "Deceptive Bend." These have largely been replaced with pictures of bends which sometimes bear little or no resemblance to the actual bend.
With the DB sign, peeps know to slow down to see what's going on, as there is no indication what it might be like.

2) Fill the ditch with coarse gravel. This would still allow water to flow, but would also give a safer 'escape route'. Similar to a sand trap on a racing circuit.

[FJRider]

Experienced motorcyclists that are familar with handling characteristic's on gravel roads, should expect problems. As you would on any unfamilar road. Start putting up signs on "dangerous" corners, and the whole country will be inundated with them. It is a known "adventure" road. Treat it with respect, or it will bite you. (As it did)

[buggsubique]

While I lean towards the argument of the rider bearing the risk, I'll gladly be a part of any collective remedial works or signage that may eventuate through negotiation with the station manager.

I am able to offer a tandem trailer and any building materials at trade rates (timber, quickcrete etc for signage if we go that way), otherwise labour for any digging and transplanting.

Cheers, B

[cooneyr]

Time for a bit of a lesson. Ever heard of the three E's, Engineering, Education and Enforcement? Getting the right balance of the three E's is the approach taken to the operation of much of the transport system (whatever the mode of travel). Think of it like this - the TV ads showing the result of alcohol, tiredness and speed, the fact that police are on the roads, and the presence of road controlling authorities such as NZTA (of which the old Transit is a part) and City and District Councils.

Some of you lot are arguing that Education is an issue (riders not riding to the conditions or lacking skills to deal with the conditions). Yes I agree, however, I also believe there is an Engineering issue with the corner and I believe I'm more than qualified to make this statement.

Look at if from another perspective. We cannot "edumicate" everybody and even the "edumicated" are hurting themselves. Whatever the case, people are still getting hurt there at an alarming and what I believe is an unacceptable rate.

As enforcement is not an option at this site this leaves engineering. To this end it appears to me that the simple solution of modifying some bushes may go a long way to improving the visibility, and hence safety, of the corner.

I am not proposing to go out there and install hundreds of signs, I'm simply proposing to make subtle changes that are in keeping with the environment. Remember that the natural environment changes over time, specifically bushes grow, which will alter the visibility of the corner. If you look at the annotated photo it can be seen that the bushes immediately on the inside of the corner are small i.e. young and if the ones further from the corner were about 1/2 their size they would be below the downstream road level.


....I am able to offer a tandem trailer and any building materials at trade rates (timber, quickcrete etc for signage if we go that way), otherwise labour for any digging and transplanting.....

Thanks for the offer B. As mentioned above I'll post here when it is time to do some work onsite.

Cheers R

[clint640]

Could happily take that corner at 80-90 once you know the road, first time if you hit it at say 30 if you get into strife its easy to save, that particular bend even at 60 you could point the front into it and give her a handful of throttle to get you round.

The voice of adventure riding wisdom speaks...:laugh::stupid:

Applying a handful of throttle if going too quick at the entry to a downhill, off camber gravel corner is unlikely to result in a favourable outcome :no:

Ryan is dead right, a little engineering is what's required, 10 or even 1000people saying on here that people should just slow down & learn to ride properly will not stop a single person getting hurt at that corner. Cutting down a bit of scrub & maybe sticking up a sign almost definitely will.

Shit, in industry we spend 10's of thousands of dollars protecting people from potential hazards that haven't ever hurt anybody & are way more obvious than that corner.

Clint

[Peril]

Just to add to this.With Tony's crash,we weren't going that quick.My bike was leaking oil so the speed coming into that short straight was probably 50-60km/h at the most.I did see the road veer towards the river back before that corner as I remember looking out and seeing the flats and the river beside it,so I knew we were heading that way.

[warewolf]

I have to agree, given this particular corner is a known trouble spot, a bit of discreet engineering to eliminate the problem is a wise thing to do.

[skidMark]

The voice of adventure riding wisdom speaks...:laugh::stupid:

Applying a handful of throttle if going too quick at the entry to a downhill, off camber gravel corner is unlikely to result in a favourable outcome :no:

Ryan is dead right, a little engineering is what's required, 10 or even 1000people saying on here that people should just slow down & learn to ride properly will not stop a single person getting hurt at that corner. Cutting down a bit of scrub & maybe sticking up a sign almost definitely will.

Shit, in industry we spend 10's of thousands of dollars protecting people from potential hazards that haven't ever hurt anybody & are way more obvious than that corner.

Clint

Ahhh i did tour 3,000 k's of south island gravel roads a month...

I think i would have some idea, i didnt crash and i was on a 250 kilo katana inline four on dual purpose tyres.

I sai grab throttle for the fact of you want to cut the rear loose, my elaboration would be lock the rear to get it sliding then heave on some power, drift the rear and get yourself round the corner tighter...provided you are standing up and leant over the front the front will go where you point it.... kicking the rear out sideways is going to help you get round a tighter corner than you expected.

Skid.

[skidMark]

Experienced motorcyclists that are familar with handling characteristic's on gravel roads, should expect problems. As you would on any unfamilar road. Start putting up signs on "dangerous" corners, and the whole country will be inundated with them. It is a known "adventure" road. Treat it with respect, or it will bite you. (As it did)


Yeah what he said! Ya cant sign post everything... well you can, but doesnt that take the challenge out of it.

If you cant read corners you shouldnt be on a motorcycle... and if you dont know the road and cant see where the corner goes...as in this case.... then go slower!

If you can't see where the corner goes you don't just go ripping into it... you should be at a speed where if it does turn out to be a nasty corner you can save it....not go ohhh shit now that i can see it it's tight.... oh bollocks im going too fast...

Oh i'll blame the road.... it's the roads fault that it was a blind corner and i didnt slow down to be cautious.

:argh:

Shouldnt be adventure riding if you cant cope with such a simple thought process.

[Crisis management]

Skiddie, I think you need to ride with people before you are in any position to comment on their abilities.

Their comments I trust, which either makes you a very good rider or misinformed, you choose.

[warewolf]

Oh i'll blame the roadThat's an extreme view and you know damn well that ppl advocating a change to this corner aren't absolving people from taking due care.

There are the usual hazards we face, then there are the odd abnormally treacherous ones. It's not so much that this is a blind corner, but a sucker corner. Trite phrases about "ride to the conditions" are at odds with the admissions from sensible riders getting caught out.

We are not hypothesising; this corner is a proven issue - just the one in how many over the 250km of Molesworth/Rainbow roads? Well-considered pro-active action to reduce the likelihood of accidents at that one corner will not turn us into a Nanny State, nor impinge on the "adventure". You can bet that similar subtle action has already been taken at a bazillion corners in this country, you just weren't given the opportunity to comment.


PS When people die in the great outdoors, it's not usually due to one thing but rather a compounding sequence of conditions and events. Curiously, this corner has a similar profile, as Ryan has already outlined.

[CrazyFrog]

It's a funny thing when a lot of non-local adv "experts" feel they know enough about this exact corner to basically blame the rider for a mistake on a badly engineered corner. This corner has so much accident history attached to it, not only with bikes but also several 4 x 4's. No, I have not lost it on this corner, because I heeded others advice to watch out for it, however, the first time I rode it a few years back, yes, it gave me a good fright.
Someone mentioned filling the ditch with gravel to assist with overshoot...well, the f...ing corner is way off camber, difficult to correct on with rolling gravel under your wheels, then goes straight into a ditch, then swamp.....the deep drain is there to assist water channeling away from the road. Fact is, the corner is mostly blind and even a slower rider, driver can still be caught out by the way the corner tightens up.
In the whole of the Dusty Butt 1000kms, this was the only corner that raised any real concern, mostly by guys who have ridden this road and know it is a problem. What the hell is wrong with raising concern and awareness about it. If it was on a public highway, the crash stats would speak for themselves, and the roading engineers would have the problem adressed.:angry:

[skidMark]

It's a funny thing when a lot of non-local adv "experts" feel they know enough about this exact corner to basically blame the rider for a mistake on a badly engineered corner. This corner has so much accident history attached to it, not only with bikes but also several 4 x 4's. No, I have not lost it on this corner, because I heeded others advice to watch out for it, however, the first time I rode it a few years back, yes, it gave me a good fright.
Someone mentioned filling the ditch with gravel to assist with overshoot...well, the f...ing corner is way off camber, difficult to correct on with rolling gravel under your wheels, then goes straight into a ditch, then swamp.....the deep drain is there to assist water channeling away from the road. Fact is, the corner is mostly blind and even a slower rider, driver can still be caught out by the way the corner tightens up.
In the whole of the Dusty Butt 1000kms, this was the only corner that raised any real concern, mostly by guys who have ridden this road and know it is a problem. What the hell is wrong with raising concern and awareness about it. If it was on a public highway, the crash stats would speak for themselves, and the roading engineers would have the problem adressed.:angry:


But its not a public highway its a gravel country backroad and like all of them it actually requires skill and a brain to ride them...

If you cant handle it stick to your remuera tractor.

[PLUG]

Ahhh i did tour 3,000 k's of south island gravel roads a month...

a fuckin X SPURT from north of the bombays ... just what this thread needs :tugger:

[CrazyFrog]

a fuckin X SPURT from north of the bombays ... just what this thread needs :tugger:

Yup, a 21 yr old X-Spurt, spending more time writing shite on internet forums than riding his prehistoric Katana roadie. What an oxygen thief.

[NordieBoy]

Yup, a 21 yr old X-Spurt, spending more time writing shite on internet forums than riding his prehistoric Katana roadie. What an oxygen thief.

As opposed to all the 40 yr old X-Spurts, spending more time writing shite on internet forums than fixing their broken KTM/Suzuki's :whistle:

[JATZ]

But its not a public highway its a gravel country backroad and like all of them it actually requires skill and a brain to ride them...

If you cant handle it stick to your remuera tractor.

Thanks for your input SkidMark,welcome back by the way.Nice project bike you got y'self

BUT untill you have actually riden the road and seen the offending corner for your self nothing you say will change my mind, something needs to be done.
The corner damn near got me 3 days before the D.B. and I wasn't going that fast.
I don't think the angle of the corner is the big issue,if it was well banked you wouldn't need to hardly slow down at all, it's the negative camber about 2/3 of the way around it.I didn't notice untill I stood at the top of the corner looking down it how bad it is, also the fact that all the other bends around it are fast ones.I'll go and take a photo of it (the camber)next w/end perhaps.
Another volunter here Cooney, can supply chainsaws, scrubcutters and even a small digger if needed

[reofix]

lets seal the rainbow.. call in transit... erect the armco and signage... NO NO and NO!!!!

[NordieBoy]

lets seal the rainbow.. call in transit... erect the armco and signage... NO NO and NO!!!!

They'd tell you to stuff off as it's a private road.

[babysteps]

God there are some Fucktards in this world!

This is not about whether you can ride you bike or not, its about doing something constructive to fix a known problem. Some of you need to pull your heads out of your expert asses.

Ryan, please PM me when you have a plan, I'll be happy to help.

[Ally67]

Could happily take that corner at 80-90 [/QUOTE]


I think a demo by skidmark is in order (i'll bring the popcorn):corn::corn:
I feel like a good laugh:rofl::rofl:

[FJRider]

Yup, a 21 yr old X-Spurt, spending more time writing shite on internet forums than riding his prehistoric Katana roadie. What an oxygen thief.

Probably did more km's in gravel, on that prehistoric roadie, than a few dirt bike riders on dirt bikes. And didn't need a chopper.
That road wasn't built for general public use. It goes through some of the most isolated and extreme areas of the south island. The sort of area , it is not recommended you travel alone. Its very popularity is due to that very fact.
Sucker corners ??? Assuming the road goes to the same style as the previous corners went, is a bad idea... Always has been. Tar seal roads are no different in this respect. Same result !!! You learned what happens if you do. As have others who have binned in that spot. When you go through there again, you will be taking more care, even if you are not aware of it.
As will the others...
Take ALL the "dangerous" corners out of ANY road ... and you take the "adventure" out. Tar seal, or gravel.

[ducatijim]

I'm sure glad that outback Oz was NOT covered with large signs saying; 'severe corrogations next 360km'...or; 'deep bulldust next 5km'.

Thats what makes an adventure.

These places are as close as NZ will ever get to decent, out there adventuring.

Lets just leave it as God, and Rainbows' trackmakers, intended, and accept that not all places in any adventure will be PERFECT.:beer:

[buggsubique]

:Pokey: ...:corn:

[topo]

<embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://i304.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid304.photobucket.com/albums/nn175/topo-t-south/north005.flv">


Look pretty innocent to me :argue:(vid taken last summer, first rider needed to be pulled out on his previous trip through), i've taken this corner at both "nana" speeds and at pace and never had a problem. I have however had to help remove 3 bikes/riders from that :angry2:ditch and would be happy to help with any "improvements" deemed nessary.

[NordieBoy]

Lets just leave it as God, and Rainbows' trackmakers, intended, and accept that not all places in any adventure will be PERFECT.:beer:

If someone who has broken his neck on a corner wants to fix it so it is less likely to put someone else through what they went through then good luck to them.

[skidMark]

a fuckin X SPURT from north of the bombays ... just what this thread needs :tugger:

What somebody with a brain, would you prefer i leave you to inbreed amongst yourselves?


Yup, a 21 yr old X-Spurt, spending more time writing shite on internet forums than riding his prehistoric Katana roadie. What an oxygen thief.

How is age a factor, and riding my "prehistoric" katana... Ahhh takes more skill to ride on gravel than your modern bikes designed for this exact purpose


As opposed to all the 40 yr old X-Spurts, spending more time writing shite on internet forums than fixing their broken KTM/Suzuki's :whistle:

I think you about covered it all.


Thanks for your input SkidMark,welcome back by the way.Nice project bike you got y'self

BUT untill you have actually riden the road and seen the offending corner for your self nothing you say will change my mind, something needs to be done.
The corner damn near got me 3 days before the D.B. and I wasn't going that fast.
I don't think the angle of the corner is the big issue,if it was well banked you wouldn't need to hardly slow down at all, it's the negative camber about 2/3 of the way around it.I didn't notice untill I stood at the top of the corner looking down it how bad it is, also the fact that all the other bends around it are fast ones.I'll go and take a photo of it (the camber)next w/end perhaps.
Another volunter here Cooney, can supply chainsaws, scrubcutters and even a small digger if needed

I understand shit happens.... but its not exactly a deceptive corner...

It is clearly completely blind...

So why would you go into it doing anything above about 30?

This next part is not targeted at you JATZ to clear that up...

Now...

It seems everybody has to be bubble wrapped....if you cant see a corner and have no idea where it goes, why go flying into it, what have you got to prove?

It just seems idiocy to need a signpost to not step brain into gear and go shit this is really blind im on a loose surface maybe i should back off just incase.

Perhaps common sense is no longer so common.

Any more smart arses care to have a discussion without getting petty about age etc?

Wanna get petty i can play petty, want to have an adult discussion without going ohhh noes its unsafe i need a sign because i can't think for myself...

Maybe it's because you have got used to signs on every other road, bump, uneven surface etc...that this is all you respond to, and then when theres no sign you go OMG OMG OMG what do i do...

I dunno what to do's!

Do you need a sign to tell you to brake.

It's called engage brain, and no your local motorcycle shop nor ebay will stock it...

Perhaps try ebay america, you are thinking like a bunch of septics after all.

We ALL also know that if i wasnt the one making these comments you would agree, but it's because it's skidMark you have to keep up the macho act and show off and go oh i can pick on skidMark to...

Good to see the lynch mob still thrives on KB, picking on age? How very mature, you may be older but you have an opinion like primary school.

When you want to actually discuss motorcycles and the "issue" at hand please do post...

If you are going to rip into the poster then you obviously have nothing to rebuttle with.

It's like somebody beating you and going... "oh man but i was with your sister last night".... relevance your honour?

I eagerly await your replies.

Signed: A 21 year old who isn't a walkover and brings genine points to the table.

As you were.

[reofix]

in light of the end of nanny state .. we have decided to introduce nanny adventuring... all corners wil be signposted ... all hazards eliminated ... all entrants will be blood tested and required to attend a 3 day induction and re-education camp to ensure their suitability and safety... all bikes will be fitted with an additional set of wheels to keep them vertical ... all adventure is hereby outlawed... enjoy your ride

[scumdog]

Experienced motorcyclists that are familar with handling characteristic's on gravel roads, should expect problems. As you would on any unfamilar road. Start putting up signs on "dangerous" corners, and the whole country will be inundated with them. It is a known "adventure" road. Treat it with respect, or it will bite you. (As it did)

Wot 'e sed.

[skidMark]

in light of the end of nanny state .. we have decided to introduce nanny adventuring... all corners wil be signposted ... all hazards eliminated ... all entrants will be blood tested and required to attend a 3 day induction and re-education camp to ensure their suitability and safety... all bikes will be fitted with an additional set of wheels to keep them vertical ... all adventure is hereby outlawed... enjoy your ride


Sounds about as fun as driving a car through road works.

On the motorway @ rush hour.

[JATZ]

Sounds about as fun as driving a car through road works.

On the motorway @ rush hour.


Wot 'e sed.


in light of the end of nanny state .. we have decided to introduce nanny adventuring... all corners wil be signposted ... all hazards eliminated ... all entrants will be blood tested and required to attend a 3 day induction and re-education camp to ensure their suitability and safety... all bikes will be fitted with an additional set of wheels to keep them vertical ... all adventure is hereby outlawed... enjoy your ride


Yeah O.K. your probly right, dont want to take the Adv out of Adv-riding.

BUT this corner has claimed cooneyr, almost got me and Padmei on the 1st, got 426crasher on the 2nd and got TuckerBag on the 3rd.
There has been others, I don't know exactly how many (but I'd like to).
Might also be interesting to know how many bikes go through there in a season, puting some statistics into a debate is always a good way to stir it up a bit

[scumdog]

Look pretty innocent to me :argue:(vid taken last summer, first rider needed to be pulled out on his previous trip through), i've taken this corner at both "nana" speeds and at pace and never had a problem. I have however had to help remove 3 bikes/riders from that :angry2:ditch and would be happy to help with any "improvements" deemed nessary.


And the next 'bad corner? and the next?......

[skidMark]

Yeah O.K. your probly right, dont want to take the Adv out of Adv-riding.

BUT this corner has claimed cooneyr, almost got me and Padmei on the 1st, got 426crasher on the 2nd and got TuckerBag on the 3rd.
There has been others, I don't know exactly how many (but I'd like to).
Might also be interesting to know how many bikes go through there in a season, puting some statistics into a debate is always a good way to stir it up a bit


Gene-O-Kleen, Now in back country road size.

[JATZ]

DAMN cooneyR you've started something here.........

4 pages in less than 24 hrs

[warewolf]

Forget it folks, you can't argue logic with religious zealots.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o20/warewolf885/beatdeadhorse.gif

[Woodman]

This is great reading.

Nobody here wants to take the adventure out of adventure riding, but cooney and a few others I think feel an obligation to do something about a hazard they have identified. It isn't designed to stop the likes of skidmark taking the corner at 90 as that is his choice and his own adventure. You don't have to worry they areen't going to nana up the whole place, just give some guys a fair warning thats all, and i am sure they would rather be out riding than swinging on the end of a shovel. They could stay home and do that.

[FJRider]

in light of the end of nanny state .. we have decided to introduce nanny adventuring... all corners wil be signposted ... all hazards eliminated ... all entrants will be blood tested and required to attend a 3 day induction and re-education camp to ensure their suitability and safety... all bikes will be fitted with an additional set of wheels to keep them vertical ... all adventure is hereby outlawed... enjoy your ride

Many a true word spoken in jest... :dodge:

[warewolf]

OMG! One corner is going to have minor safety improvements... quick sell your bike and give up riding entirely, it'll never be any fun anymore...

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o20/warewolf885/theendisnear.jpg

[cooneyr]

I've tried to be as polite as possible and provide the relevant info till now but FFS you nay sayers need to pull yours heads in. I'm NOT proposing to "bubble wrap" the route, I'm NOT proposing signage, I'm NOT proposing to take the majority of the skill requirement out of the corner. I'm simply proposing measures that make it more clear the corner is not what it appears to be using natural means. People will still be able to stick themselves in the ditch and break bones but I'd prefer it if they don't.

There is absolutely no point in spouting on about how "experienced" you are or not, how many kms you have done nor what bike you ride and what other riders should or shouldn't do. The fact remains that many people (2 wheels or 4) have offs or near misses at the corner and continue to do so and unfortunately the results are normally broken bones. I also know of one death at the corner. No other corner on the whole 320ish kms of the Rainbow and Molesworth has the reputation of this one.

As for the so called experts - I'm a civil engineer and have been doing this sort of stuff (investigations and developing options) on public roads for almost 10 years. I believe I said all that needs to be said in the post about the three E's (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1879485&postcount=16).

I will continue to go down the path that I've stated i.e. talk politely to the Station Manager about options that they are happy with while ensuring that I don't piss him off and go from there. As this is a private road the final decision is the Station Managers call so we will have to respect his decision.

Cheers R

[FJRider]

This is great reading.

Nobody here wants to take the adventure out of adventure riding, but cooney and a few others I think feel an obligation to do something about a hazard they have identified. It isn't designed to stop the likes of skidmark taking the corner at 90 as that is his choice and his own adventure. You don't have to worry they areen't going to nana up the whole place, just give some guys a fair warning thats all, and i am sure they would rather be out riding than swinging on the end of a shovel. They could stay home and do that.

There were some (on the Dusty Butt wasn't it...) that were warned about that corner, but still binned on that corner... perhaps some just require bigger, or more warnings than others...

[skidMark]

OMG! One corner is going to have minor safety improvements... quick sell your bike and give up riding entirely, it'll never be any fun anymore...



It won't end at one corner we ALL know that. <_<

[oldrider]

This thread hints at empathy for the way Maori and American Indians etc must have felt as settlers swarmed all over their "unspoiled" wilderness! :whistle: John.

[warewolf]

It won't end at one corner we ALL know that. <_<...and it didn't start with this corner, so why all the angst??? :scratch: Besides, with the mods Ryan is suggesting, no-one will ever know it's been tweaked, just by looking at it.

How many of the corners have been tweaked already?
How many of the fords have been bulldozed to remove the drop-offs?
How many of the fords have been lined with concrete?
How many of the streams have... shock! horror!... bridges?
For that matter, how many of the corners are signposted already?

OMG! They're taking all the purity from my adventure, sorry, wilderness ride. :crybaby:

[FJRider]

Yeah O.K. your probly right, dont want to take the Adv out of Adv-riding.

BUT this corner has claimed cooneyr, almost got me and Padmei on the 1st, got 426crasher on the 2nd and got TuckerBag on the 3rd.
There has been others, I don't know exactly how many (but I'd like to).
Might also be interesting to know how many bikes go through there in a season, puting some statistics into a debate is always a good way to stir it up a bit

Everybody has their own level of adventure. To some, 250 km's of tar seal ...in a day, is an adventure.

I would be interested to hear in your own words, what you did wrong to almost get claimed by that corner, and what you did right to not get claimed by that corner.

I wonder if those statistics will tell how many almost binned on that corner.

I also believe any "improvements" to that corner, will be more to banish personal demons, than public safety. But thats my opinion... but I'm just a smarty pants. What do I know... Whatever the reasons, whatever you do, GOOD LUCK... OH... I can PM you the location of a few corners down my way you may want to look at...

[JATZ]

Everybody has their own level of adventure. To some, 250 km's of tar seal ...in a day, is an adventure.

I would be interested to hear in your own words, what you did wrong to almost get claimed by that corner, and what you did right to not get claimed by that corner.

I wonder if those statistics will tell how many almost binned on that corner.

I also believe any "improvements" to that corner, will be more to banish personal demons, than public safety. But thats my opinion... but I'm just a smarty pants. What do I know... Whatever the reasons, whatever you do, GOOD LUCK... OH... I can PM you the location of a few corners down my way you may want to look at...


O.K.last post for tonight ( I don't like leaving a debate half way through but I gotta get to bed)

When I almost went off, I was expecting (yes I know, mistake #1) that corner to be like the last few I'd just been around, looking at the scenery(as you do(mistake #2)) and thinking about tea on saturday night(mistake #3),Like I said I wasn't going fast, maybe 40k's, but I wasn't watching the speedo

What I did to get around it without incident, I picked a landmark (the blue shed, which I had seen earlier(looking at the scenery)) and remembered to look for it next time, It's visible a wee way before you get to said bend so you know your close.

Hell yeah P.M. me the locations, any excuse to go for a ride

[magicfairy]

As the partner of a 3 time Dusty Butter :love:(Balrog) soon to do the Yamaha Safari I am extremely grateful for Ryans efforts to stop that corner claiming anyone else.
It's not just the riders lives impacted when something bad happens, there are loved ones who suffer, when these 'adventures' go wrong.

I have been in that hospital room with those loved ones as they wait for answers. I have sat next to the widow saying good bye to a friend in his coffin.

So I'm with Ryan on this one :yes:. He knows what he is talking about.

It's about preventing unecessary accidents, not spoiling anyones fun.

[Aslan]

right on! I'm with Magic Fairy and those in CooneyR's camp on this one - oops I stuck my head above the parapet :wari:

[tri boy]

Bout time the adv guys n gals had a knock down stoush:jerry::jerry:
I'll leave it to the locals to sort this out. I've only ridden the Rainbow once, and it was with marks, which meant snails and slugs were tooting at us, and giving the finger:laugh:

[Crisis management]

I need a later bedtime so I don't miss the fun...I'll talk to my mum tonight!

Ryan, you're doing the right thing and thank you for it, the rest of you can bicker in the corner. :whistle:

[clint640]

And the next 'bad corner? and the next?......

I think those worried about a band of vigilante signposters spoiling their favourite roads with a forest of signage can rest easy. What we're talking about here is by far the biggest mongrel corner on any adv route in the entire top half of the South Island IMHO.

I've ridden & driven most of the popular back tracks in the South Island now (maybe not as many as Skidmark ;) ) & if mention was made of 'That corner on the Porika' or 'That corner on the Molesworth' etc etc I would say 'eh? what?' But when Ryan mentioned this one I knew exactly what he was talking about. Good on ya mate for doing something about it not just talking about it.

Cheers
Clint

[thepom]

just do it.....:laugh:

[Sully60]

Or learn to ride? you dont ride roads above about 30-40% of your ability when you dont know them. Common sense isn't so common anymore is it. <_<

Could happily take that corner at 80-90 once you know the road, first time if you hit it at say 30 if you get into strife its easy to save, that particular bend even at 60 you could point the front into it and give her a handful of throttle to get you round.


Experienced motorcyclists that are familar with handling characteristic's on gravel roads, should expect problems. As you would on any unfamilar road. Start putting up signs on "dangerous" corners, and the whole country will be inundated with them. It is a known "adventure" road. Treat it with respect, or it will bite you. (As it did)

I totally agree with both of your sentiments, the dude or dudette at the handlebars is the person who makes their own fate (in this instance). One could quite sucessfully argue that by riding at a speed where you are unable to deal with any hazard that may arise is negligence.

But if one also has the ability to change things for the better (like Coonyr has suggested doing) and you don't, one could argue that's double negligence.

If I ever have another accident on the road and hit a cheescutter then I've fucked up. If I've done nothing at all to help remove these awful things then I deserve it!

[young1]

Good on you Ryan, I agree if the corner is a mongrel as it sounds it is, just go and do what you have planned!

[426crasher]

Time for a bit of a lesson. Ever heard of the three E's, Engineering, Education and Enforcement?

Cheers R

Fourth E Exactly. Reading common sense and wisdom is far better than the "civil war" rants from some,who for some it seems have not ridden said corner.
I blame myself for my off there.
BUT it still remains a deceptive corner and WILL still claim people.
I'm still 100% in with the rational/common sense people here,we know who we are, in getting something done about it.
If we do get permission to do work there we could invite skidmark and co to formerly reopen the bend........at 90kmh of course.

[warewolf]

I've finally made it on KB! :wari:

Got red-rep'ed by underpants-stain himself!!:Punk:

[buggsubique]

there there WW, don't take it personally bud. Time will heal.

[Number One]

Good on you OP for working to do something to help others who may travel through that area in the future. I salute you sir



Or learn to ride? you dont ride roads above about 30-40% of your ability when you dont know them. Common sense isn't so common anymore is it. <_<


Ahhh you are meant to be weatching the road not the ditch, why do you need a visable ditch?

You know skidMark you have said on several threads that you hope KB has changed....why should it have when you don't seem to have?! Still posting holier than thou posts when many many of us know your own track record around *riding sensibly and within your limits* is not that flash.

Again...I salute anyone that bothers to try to improve the safety of the roads we travel and if more than the few odd bikers are coming a cropper on the corner then why the fuck not try to do something about it.

[marks]

I've only ridden the Rainbow once, and it was with marks, which meant snails and slugs were tooting at us, and giving the finger:laugh:

We must have been riding like a couple of fags - I have no recollection of a particular standout 'oh f*ck' corner (some days every gravel corner seems like an 'oh f*ck' corner :scooter:).

That said I think its great that its been identified and will hopefully be modified (happy to help if I can)

cheers


Mark

[Padmei]

Good on ya Ryan. You've done an amazing thing with the DB & as a new adv rider really appreciate your organising an achievable fun & adventurous challenge.


I can't wait for next year but please please can there be some more KLRs. I felt really dirty riding with all those DRs - oooh have to go and shower again:chase:

[Aslan]

I can't wait for next year but please please can there be some more KLRs. I felt really dirty riding with all those DRs - oooh have to go and shower again:chase:


we didn't mind making allowances for a lack of good judgement on machine selection on the part of an otherwise fine bloke like you :laugh:


check the RR for the DB thread over on ADV Craig - pics of you coming up

[Sully60]

I think a cheesecutter is a piss poor example to throw on the plate and bears no relevance to this topic whatesoever.

Ok Skiddy I'll bite:yawn:

Dear boy you've gone and reacted to the words you read on the screen and not the intended message.:rolleyes:

I used cheesecutters as a metaphor in this case because it's an emotive subject that many members are aware of. I admit it's a bit of a leap from the Rainbow road to cheescutters, as Oldrider has reminded me Adventure riding is about getting away from the urban sprawl, state highways and all the complications and stress that go with it.

I'd counter that with the expectation that most of the readers of the thread were more than capable of making that leap, even you for some reason.<_<

At your age I'd expect that you may not have quite grasped the concept of doing everything you can to look after yourself when you ride motorcycle. Yeah I'm sure your skillz on the bike may be quite madd but how much thought do you put into working on things in your environment that allow you to enjoy motorcycling whilst being a little bit safer?

This particular road although private is obviously used fairly regularly and I'd imagine a good number of them may be on the road would not to familiar with the terrain, it's called adventure riding afterall.
Would it be too much drama to do as the OP suggested and make the decptive nature of the corner a little clearer to those approching it, or is that too wussy? Especially for someone used to getting your knee down at 140 on the Coro loop.:yes:

Here's an example at the opposite end of the spectrum. It take it you know what an Enduro is? There are some (many?) involved in that discipline that would dissapointed if all the competitors were able to succesfully tackle the terrain they've selected for that event.
Those same people also ride the terrain and mark any obstacle or 'quirk' in along the route that may pose some danger if a competitor was to attack it with reckless abandon.
Even the most masochistic motorcyclist will put some measures in place to look after themselves.

:done:

[Jantar]

I'm another one who would be anti any signs, but definitely in favour of modifying the vegetation so that it is more obvious that the corner is there.

[scumdog]

Ryan, you're doing the right thing and thank you for it, the rest of you can bicker in the corner. :whistle:

And the next 'worst' corner?

and the next one?

and...?

[cooneyr]

Oky doky. Have a look at the embeded video prepared by Transalper. This is taken by an average height rider on a DR and you can see that there is even less visible clues as to the nature of the corner than in my photos (I'm a bit taller than average). Sorry about the quality of the vid.

The bush and the first part of the corner imply that the second half of the corner is similar. Yes I know assumptions are the mother of all fuckups - pretty obvious that many are making assumptions and paying the price in at this corner. You can see though that at about the apex or a couple of meters before that all is not what it seems. Unfortunately this is too late for most

It appears from the video that the vegetation is the major cause of the issue. So I believe this video supports my proposed solution of modifying the vegetation.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GqVc2ZEiodc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GqVc2ZEiodc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Cheers R

[scumdog]

In the days of my XL350 I would not have ridden over an unfamiliar road like that at that speed..my 2-cents worth.

[cooneyr]

And the next 'worst' corner?

and the next one?

and...?

I hear your point and I believe that DOC has overdone it in the Molesworth. However as Clint640 posted (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1880771&postcount=62) this is the only corner with such a reputation in the top of the south island.

I know of a few other "interesting" corners in the Rainbow and the Molesworth. These corners are pretty obvious for what they are the few times I've seen people get close to the edge of the road is due to them going in to hot, not because they hadn't realised that the corner is not what it seems. Case of engineering vs education - those damn E's again.

Cheers R

[Woodman]

Good on ya Ryan. You've done an amazing thing with the DB & as a new adv rider really appreciate your organising an achievable fun & adventurous challenge.


I can't wait for next year but please please can there be some more KLRs. I felt really dirty riding with all those DRs - oooh have to go and shower again:chase:

So did your KLR break at all?? cos some non KLR's did. Hold your head high padmei cos we know don't we.

[That looks like fun]

I fell off in the sand at Uriti Point 2 days ago, can we have the sand wet and compacted please :Punk: Looking at the vids, yep that corners going to catch people. :shit: Having just ridden a shit load of ks around the Wairarpa I noticed that people are not welcome anywhere anymore. Everywhere I went there were "NO CAMPING" "PRIVATE ROAD" "NO ENTRY" "HIDDEN VIDEO CAMERAS OPERATING" signs. Lets face it, we are screwing ourselves into a corner. I have no desire to see my riding mates seriously hurt nor get hurt myself. I do not fool myself with the belief that my impressive riding skills will keep me permanantly upright and far from harm ( did I mention the sand?) By all means fix the corner but lets not end up with "ROAD CLOSED" signs at each end of this road.
At least not until me, my kids. Grandkids. great grandkids etc have been thru it :jerry:

[reofix]

hows about making route sheets available for all the tricky roads in NZ just like WRC use... those that like that sort of thing can use them ... and those that dont can take their chances ... and the corner can stay just as it is ... unimbloodyproved!

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools."...trying to educate and engineer to prevent human folly has
already produced a world of fools... we do not need this on the rainbow... its a place to get away from wellington worry wombles!!

[monchopper]

Looking at the corner on the video it's easy to see how people become unstuck.
It's a deceptive bend with an adverse camber and I'm assuming it's a 2 way road? Chuck in a big ass 4WD coming the other way................

I can only assume those proposing the change to tree line aren't ever going to crash at that corner again....So they're doing it to help prevent others falling into the same trap. I'm a big fan

[skidMark]

Oky doky. Have a look at the embeded video prepared by Transalper. This is taken by an average height rider on a DR and you can see that there is even less visible clues as to the nature of the corner than in my photos (I'm a bit taller than average). Sorry about the quality of the vid.

The bush and the first part of the corner imply that the second half of the corner is similar. Yes I know assumptions are the mother of all fuckups - pretty obvious that many are making assumptions and paying the price in at this corner. You can see though that at about the apex or a couple of meters before that all is not what it seems. Unfortunately this is too late for most

It appears from the video that the vegetation is the major cause of the issue. So I believe this video supports my proposed solution of modifying the vegetation.

Cheers R


Oh so it is "implied"

Unbelieveable, you never go into a corner you dont know going oh yeah it looks like this, i assume it's sweet.

On the roads i went down in south island every one of them had corners alot worse than that, that is one easy corner, it looks like one n00bs would panic and stand up on...

Plain and simple learn to ride, that is a piss easy corner, im not saying that to prove a point, i really dont see an issue apart from it catching n00bs... if you cant handle that corner you shouldnt be on a gravel road. plain and simple...

:angry:

I actually cant believe all this crying over that.

[skidMark]

Looking at the corner on the video it's easy to see how people become unstuck.
It's a deceptive bend with an adverse camber and I'm assuming it's a 2 way road? Chuck in a big ass 4WD coming the other way................

I can only assume those proposing the change to tree line aren't ever going to crash at that corner again....So they're doing it to help prevent others falling into the same trap. I'm a big fan


Yes it is easy to see how they become unstuck because they panic, when all you have to do is look in, point the wheel at it and give it some berry's instead of doing a n00b standup and hitting the picks. :nono:

you can see from the photos on first post that the bit of road after the corner is way over the left....this is from 2 bends before, i would go hmmm wonder how it gets over there, perhaps with a tight corner...

I really cant believe all this bleating over that, if you crash there you deserve a smack on the head.

Plain and simple.

[skidMark]

OMG! One corner is going to have minor safety improvements... quick sell your bike and give up riding entirely, it'll never be any fun anymore...




Was that a comeback... or epilepsy?

[FJRider]

Looking at the corner on the video it's easy to see how people become unstuck.
It's a deceptive bend with an adverse camber and I'm assuming it's a 2 way road? Chuck in a big ass 4WD coming the other way................

I can only assume those proposing the change to tree line aren't ever going to crash at that corner again....So they're doing it to help prevent others falling into the same trap. I'm a big fan

It is a two way road... and 4WD bus's go through there. Often stop for passengers to take photos... even in that vid' at the start, if a 4WD was coming the other way... could he have stopped or got out of the way in time ...???

[Crisis management]

And the next 'worst' corner?

and the next one?

and...?

I appreciate your concern and I wouldn't have offered my support for clearing some vegetation off a corner unless I knew and trusted the OP. Yes, there is always a likely hood of someone getting all excited and taking on the task of "safetyising' the south island but it ain't these guys.
As a generalisation, adventure riders love the planet as it is and are the last ones to get involved in a sanitising process so it takes quite a lot to get any of us thinking about changing stuff like this, the debate here obviously illustrates the point.

It is quite normal to drop a bike or two on an adventure ride, the last one I did I went off a track and into a bank and lost the front on a gravel corner, thats par for the course. Look thru the trip reports and all you see is bikes stuffed over banks, upside down in rivers and scuffed up people. No ones
proposing changing any of the roads that contributed to those events, this corner seems a bit out of the ordinary and I have no problem with clearing some vegetation off it, seems prudent to me.


In the days of my XL350 I would not have ridden over an unfamiliar road like that at that speed..my 2-cents worth.

Always hard to judge speed from a video but that looked fine to me and I would have thought it wasn't much more than 60km/h.......

Magic fairy said it for me in an earlier post, regarding the damage we see to people we care about, we always accept a risk in this sport but when it becomes obvious that something should be done we need to step up and do it. Clearing vegetation does it for me, it's a low level intervention that doesn't change the road or topography merely improves your chances of not stuffing up.

Carry on.... Iain

[marks]

can there be some more KLRs. I felt really dirty riding with all those DRs - oooh have to go and shower again:chase:

its the open backed leather chaps that all the DR riders wear that put me off - maybe if they at least wore underwear it would help (you just have to hope its only roost that hits you when you're following one)

[DrifterIII]

I hope to go through in Feb I will have it marked in my gps.
Thanks for the warning.

[Transalper]

Yep, speed in the video was around 60 leading up to the bend, could go round at that speed fine unless you turn in to late as even at 60 the bike launches as the road dips.
If a vehicle was coming the other way you should be able to see it or its dust cloud (on a dry day) even where the road isn't so obvious and I reckon you'd slow down (and hopefully the other vehicle will see you too) and get round fine unless the other vehicle cuts in :Pokey:
I reckon it really only will catch people out when they let their guard down and make assumptions but unfortunately not everyone is a hero and so it happens.
Moving a couple of bushes is way more effective than education.
Yes they may well deserve a crash for their stupidity but that costs all of us, or at least contributes to the ACC argument we pay for in our regos.

In summary I totally agree that people are idiots and the corner should not have to be changed but with bush manipulation no one will notice that it has been changed and anything that may save a life, even an idiots life can't be all bad.
I reckon cooneyr should have just done it offline and saved all this tiresome opinionated fuss and bother.

[Transalper]

...
I reckon cooneyr should have just done it offline and saved all this tiresome opinionated fuss and bother.Actually now that I think of it, if even only one person is able to see through the offensive talking down at you tones that the good advice has mostly been delivered with....that you should not make assumptions and should only ride to the road surface you can actually see and presumably stop in, then I guess all this online fuss and bother might have been worth it after all.:niceone:
For the rest who can't be told or occasionally get carried away with the ride or distracted for what ever reason, there may be a corner, ditch, rock, hole, ford, sheep, oncoming bike or 4x4 etc out there somewhere with your name on it, just waiting to knock you off you bike... on this corner however, you're about to be given a second chance, good luck with the rest and thank you to cooneyr.


As you were. :jerry:
TA.

[cooneyr]

Actually now that I think of it, if even only one person is able to see through the offensive talking down at you tones that the good advice has mostly been delivered with....that you should not make assumptions and should only ride to the road surface you can actually see and presumably stop in, then I guess all this online fuss and bother might have been worth it after all.:niceone:
For the rest who can't be told or occasionally get carried away with the ride or distracted for what ever reason, there may be a corner, ditch, rock, hole, ford, sheep, oncoming bike or 4x4 etc out there somewhere with your name on it, just waiting to knock you off you bike... on this corner however, you're about to be given a second chance, good luck with the rest and thank you to cooneyr.


As you were. :jerry:
TA.

Very well said TA. Definitely green bling for this. Pat yourself on the back.

I started to write replies to a number of other posts on this thread but have though better of it as this thread has become ridiculous in the extreme. From my perspective, the alternative is to do nothing and to sit back and watch more people seriously injure or kill themselves. Simply put I'm not that sick. All the bickering and expectations of riders skills posted on this thread will not stop the injuries or death.

Cheers R

[Ms Topo]

As the partner of a 3 time Dusty Butter :love:(Balrog) soon to do the Yamaha Safari I am extremely grateful for Ryans efforts to stop that corner claiming anyone else.
It's not just the riders lives impacted when something bad happens, there are loved ones who suffer, when these 'adventures' go wrong.

I have been in that hospital room with those loved ones as they wait for answers. I have sat next to the widow saying good bye to a friend in his coffin.

So I'm with Ryan on this one :yes:. He knows what he is talking about.

It's about preventing unecessary accidents, not spoiling anyones fun.


Well said Magic fairy.:niceone:

[Mr. Peanut]

It's a clear hazard, it has caused injury. It's like seeing a big piece of retread on a blind corner, and not removing it lest we spoil someones 'fun'

I'm sure anyone reading a sign saying "slow down" on that corner will thanking you after riding through it.

[FJRider]

I recall something in the law about being able to stop within half the clear distance or road ahead. Would those that binned on this corner have done so if this law had been adhered to...???
If vegetation is removed, does road direction angle, suddenly become obvious....??? or just help with visability of seeing oncoming traffic. If the road turns left (going north) then drops away with an off camber, how much of the road could (will) actually be seen. Or wont that be known untill after the vegetation is removed.

[NordieBoy]

With the bushes cut back you should be able to see the next bit of straight after the corner which gives you an indication of where things are going.

[Woodman]

I recall something in the law about being able to stop within half the clear distance or road ahead. Would those that binned on this corner have done so if this law had been adhered to...???
If vegetation is removed, does road direction angle, suddenly become obvious....??? or just help with visability of seeing oncoming traffic. If the road turns left (going north) then drops away with an off camber, how much of the road could (will) actually be seen. Or wont that be known untill after the vegetation is removed.

So what you are saying is, if there is a car, lets say a trafficcop doing a u turn halfway round a corner and you run into said cop then it is your fault and not the u turning cop car??

Slightly off topic I know but for the record I agree with Cooney.

[FJRider]

With the bushes cut back you should be able to see the next bit of straight after the corner which gives you an indication of where things are going.

"Should"...??? "Indication"...??? In other words... is a no to my question...???? or just a "might be"...
Previous corners gave an "indication" of "where things went".
Cutting back the scrub may work, untill the grass grows a bit, and any road disappears...

Pic's already posted by the thread starter, clearly shows the road coming from upper right to lower left towards you (first pic). Would that not be an indication of where things (i.e. the road) are going. I would imagine, on an unfamilar road (those familar with the road would know to take care there ...right ?), that by time any rider got to the point of where the second pic was taken, the rider would be looking at the corner (where he/she was going), and pretty much committed to speed, and line.
As a newbie to gravel, I would be very interested in the lines through this corner. Would it be as on tar seal, follow the wheel tracks, or some another. Can any expert tell me ??? Pardon my ignorance on this subject.

D.O.C. have a habit of placing signs, green with yellow writing all over the place. Perhaps a similar "profesional" sign might ... "appear"... a little before the point where the first pic was taken...

[FJRider]

So what you are saying is, if there is a car, lets say a trafficcop doing a u turn halfway round a corner and you run into said cop then it is your fault and not the u turning cop car??

Slightly off topic I know but for the record I agree with Cooney.

Read the rode code yourself and figure it out.
If when you saw the cop, had plenty of time to stop... and he turned as you got to him, his fault. Cops aren't the only one's who do that...
If you never saw him 'till you were going over his roof... some responsibility must lie with you. It may not be a cop next time, maybe a tree down, or a slip, or a washout, or..... If you assume (there's that word again) the road is clear round that corner...

[cooneyr]

.....As a newbie to gravel, I would be very interested in the lines through this corner. Would it be as on tar seal, follow the wheel tracks, or some another. Can any expert tell me ??? Pardon my ignorance on this subject.....

As this corner is a left hander the typical line is the LH wheel track which means you typically get plenty of camber to help you. Part of the issue with this corner is that the camber rapidly rolls off and becomes negative meaning that you need to reduce your speed rapidly. That combined with the rapid tightening of the corner is the got ya.

It is not practical to do anything about the camber as we have no budget for this work whatsoever. Therefore the only thing we can do is provide more of an indication of the tightening of the corner. In the first of the photos of mine that you posted, you can just make out my XTZ through the bushes at about mid bush height (a white spot in the bush). I'm proposing to remove those bushes so you can see the road at that point.

Removing the bushes immediately inside the corner will not enable you to see the road past the apex much sooner, maybe about 10m sooner. However if we transplant those bushes to the outside of the corner (outside the ditch) it will be clear that the road is much tighter than it appears. It is very common and well understood now that lamp posts, hedges etc can either be used to reinforce the shape of the corner or they can deceive. There is quite a cool diagram in one of the manuals at work that shows this but unfortunately I don't have access to it at the moment.

Cheers R

[FJRider]

As this corner is a left hander the typical line is the LH wheel track which means you typically get plenty of camber to help you. Part of the issue with this corner is that the camber rapidly rolls off and becomes negative meaning that you need to reduce your speed rapidly. That combined with the rapid tightening of the corner is the got ya.

It is not practical to do anything about the camber as we have no budget for this work whatsoever. Therefore the only thing we can do is provide more of an indication of the tightening of the corner. In the first of the photos of mine that you posted, you can just make out my XTZ through the bushes at about mid bush height (a white spot in the bush). I'm proposing to remove those bushes so you can see the road at that point.

Removing the bushes immediately inside the corner will not enable you to see the road past the apex much sooner, maybe about 10m sooner. However if we transplant those bushes to the outside of the corner (outside the ditch) it will be clear that the road is much tighter than it appears.

Cheers R

Thank you. Your mention of planting on the outside of the corner does make sense.
I have done a bit of 4WD'ing, and as a general rule, the outside of corners on "less" maintained, adventure roads, tend to get chewed out, as the weight of vehicles tends to push out the road surface to the outside and off the track. Just over the rise of the same corners, where vehicles regain sprung weight, is also liable to be more rutted or gouged out. Tighter corners do tend to be even worse. Have you noticed similar...???
I did see the bike.
How long since a grader went down that road...??? Or has their not been one since the D8 that created it...???

[warewolf]

It is very common and well understood now that lamp posts, hedges etc can either be used to reinforce the shape of the corner or they can deceive. There is quite a cool diagram in one of the manuals at work that shows thisMwahahaha... I'm not sayin' nuthin' about the choice of guide post reflector colours in this country. :crazy: But the chances are good I can draw that same diagram to demonstrate the reflector problem and solution.

:argue:

:bash:

[NordieBoy]

How long since a grader went down that road...??? Or has their not been one since the D8 that created it...???

Graded every season.

[cooneyr]

...I have done a bit of 4WD'ing, and as a general rule, the outside of corners on "less" maintained, adventure roads, tend to get chewed out, as the weight of vehicles tends to push out the road surface to the outside and off the track. Just over the rise of the same corners, where vehicles regain sprung weight, is also liable to be more rutted or gouged out. Tighter corners do tend to be even worse. Have you noticed similar...???....

From my experiance there tends to be a fair bit of loose material on the outside of gravel road corners but I wouldnt say that it is normal to find rutting any more than normal gravel roads. I too did a few years of 4wding before I got into bikes.


Graded every season.

Grading might be a little bit of a stong word. It is not done very well as evidenced by the windrow of gravel on the shoulders of the road. The Molesworth and Molesworth farm section of the Rainbow road have been graded properly but almost too deep as there is a lot of loose gravel on them now unless you are in the wheel tracks.

Actually I've never heard of or seen a grader in there but I do know that a dozer (station) and excavator (transpower) goes through every season. I suspect that much of the grading work is done by the dozer on its way to and from Hells Gate and beyond to clear the slips.

Cheers R

[FJRider]

Graded every season.

So when is it due through next ... ???

[skidMark]

As this corner is a left hander the typical line is the LH wheel track which means you typically get plenty of camber to help you. Part of the issue with this corner is that the camber rapidly rolls off and becomes negative meaning that you need to reduce your speed rapidly. That combined with the rapid tightening of the corner is the got ya.

It is not practical to do anything about the camber as we have no budget for this work whatsoever. Therefore the only thing we can do is provide more of an indication of the tightening of the corner. In the first of the photos of mine that you posted, you can just make out my XTZ through the bushes at about mid bush height (a white spot in the bush). I'm proposing to remove those bushes so you can see the road at that point.

Removing the bushes immediately inside the corner will not enable you to see the road past the apex much sooner, maybe about 10m sooner. However if we transplant those bushes to the outside of the corner (outside the ditch) it will be clear that the road is much tighter than it appears. It is very common and well understood now that lamp posts, hedges etc can either be used to reinforce the shape of the corner or they can deceive. There is quite a cool diagram in one of the manuals at work that shows this but unfortunately I don't have access to it at the moment.

Cheers R


Why it's only off camber, you dont really lean that much on gravel roads anyway. You are standing on the pegs and slinging your upper body into it.

Only issue i had ever had with off camber corners was peg down too quick, never had any problems whatsoever with difference in traction because of this be it tarmac or gravel.

[Mr. Peanut]

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It's one of these corners I expect.

[NordieBoy]

Actually I've never heard of or seen a grader in there but I do know that a dozer (station) and excavator (transpower) goes through every season. I suspect that much of the grading work is done by the dozer on its way to and from Hells Gate and beyond to clear the slips.

On the 2004 Rainbow Rage the grader had broken down half way leaving a long stretch with a nice ridge down the middle of the road.
The MTB's had no problem but the vehicles following had some issues :D

[_Shrek_]

Why it's only off camber, you dont really lean that much on gravel roads anyway. You are standing on the pegs and slinging your upper body into it.

Only issue i had ever had with off camber corners was peg down too quick, never had any problems whatsoever with difference in traction because of this be it tarmac or gravel.

:nono: skiddie you have no Idea what this corner is like until you have been there, & you trying to teach us to sux eggs on this matter is starting to get :yawn:



Grading might be a little bit of a stong word. It is not done very well as evidenced by the windrow of gravel on the shoulders of the road. The Molesworth and Molesworth farm section of the Rainbow road have been graded properly but almost too deep as there is a lot of loose gravel on them now unless you are in the wheel tracks.

Actually I've never heard of or seen a grader in there but I do know that a dozer (station) and excavator (transpower) goes through every season. I suspect that much of the grading work is done by the dozer on its way to and from Hells Gate and beyond to clear the slips.

Cheers R

the grading is done R, but only to a certern $$ standard hence the xtra charge's, lets hope they put it back into the track

M/W rd, most times the grader can only use what is there not always a good thing

[FJRider]

Perhaps find out when he's going through next, and be there with "refreshments", and a little extra time may be "allocated" to that corner...

[Woodman]

[QUOTE=_Shrek_;1884588]:nono: skiddie you have no Idea what this corner is like until you have been there, & you trying to teach us to sux eggs on this matter is starting to get :yawn:

Skidmark is just havin a bit of fun, I don't think he actually means much of what he says.

[Jantar]

Unfortunately, skiddie DOES believe what he says.

[PLUG]

Unfortunately, skiddie DOES believe what he says.

... a ledgend in his own anal scratchings ...

[PLUG]

It's one of these corners I expect.

... dats da one ... & they had pace notes/cautions ...

[sidecar bob]

Why it's only off camber, you dont really lean that much on gravel roads anyway. You are standing on the pegs and slinging your upper body into it.

Only issue i had ever had with off camber corners was peg down too quick, never had any problems whatsoever with difference in traction because of this be it tarmac or gravel.

I can barely believe that with your un equalled bike control skills that you are online today. I fully expected you to be giving Shirrifs Stroud & Bugden the hurry up at the nats this weekend.
Its a damn shame, the sport needs more riders of your calibre to pull the crowds.

[Kokopelli]

Thanks for telling me about 'the corner' the video really shows how deceptive it is. Thankfully I am too chicken to ride fast as the rider in the video, but I know that shit can happen at any speed. Good luck with your quest.

[Padmei]

Unfortunately, skiddie DOES believe what he says.

Go easy guys. I remember when I was young & knew everthing - what surprises me now as I get older is how much I've forgotten:(

[NordieBoy]

Go easy guys. I remember when I was young & knew everthing - what surprises me now as I get older is how much I've forgotten:(

It's down the hall to the left.

No the LEFT!

[_Shrek_]

It's down the hall to the left.

No the LEFT!


what surprises me now as I get older is how much I've forgotten:(

lift both lids & point

[OV Lander]

Okay so I've read the thread (well, most of it!) and I am completely confounded by the level of resistance to Ryans' re-engineering suggestions with a view to making 'The Corner' more obvious.

As somebody who has spent many days and weeks undertaking Search and Rescue missions to pull people out of the bush, both inexperienced fools and experienced experts, and as somebody who has lost a very good (and experienced) friend to the bush I whole heartedly support Ryans' proposal.

I would counsel that the cost of a rescue, the human cost to the injured party and their families (Good on ya MagicFairy!) then the efforts required to modify a track to 'assist', not nanny, is a small price to pay.

The trouble is it is always the same people that are willing to spend time supporting the continuity of a sport, and always the same 'others' that steadfastly refuse to contribute.

Based on your comments SkidMark (since we've never met) I can only assume that be you experienced or otherwise, you fall into the 'Fools' camp who takes everything they can from a sport and seldom contributes to the sport. To you I say, enjoy it while it lasts and for as long as you enjoy your temporary residency status on this planet.

I would also advise, that due to attitudes such the one you have displayed on this thread, I have since quit Search and Rescue and developed a somewhat reluctant belief in Darwinism - the strongest will survive and the dumbest will fall short. 'Gene-o-Kleen' if you like!

[Woodman]

And that concludes that.

[White trash]

Why it's only off camber, you dont really lean that much on gravel roads anyway. You are standing on the pegs and slinging your upper body into it.

Only issue i had ever had with off camber corners was peg down too quick, never had any problems whatsoever with difference in traction because of this be it tarmac or gravel.
Mark, please don't take this as abuse or a dig, but have a little read of a basic physics book or even make a model with a toy bike and a cambered/off cambered turn. There is a very good reason you can go faster around a cambered turn as opposed to off camber and it's got nothing to do with pegs decking out.

[skidMark]

Mark, please don't take this as abuse or a dig, but have a little read of a basic physics book or even make a model with a toy bike and a cambered/off cambered turn. There is a very good reason you can go faster around a cambered turn as opposed to off camber and it's got nothing to do with pegs decking out.


Not a dig? you stalk me in every other thread to get your word in trashy.

Yes i know lose traction etc...it's called skill, if you had some you would understand...

[FJRider]

Go easy guys. I remember when I was young & knew everthing - what surprises me now as I get older is how much I've forgotten:(

Three things happen in old age, first you lose your memory.... I forget the other two...

[cooneyr]

I've finally made it on KB! :wari:

Got red-rep'ed by underpants-stain himself!!:Punk:

Me to :banana:

Love you to Skiddy.

Cheers R

[magicfairy]

at the riders briefing last night on the safari they spent quite a bit of time explaining the corner, it's history and the fact it may still have dazzle on the rocks, where it was.
Was done really well, dave pointed out there were two views, "ride to the conditions, shouldn't be marked" and "it was a nasty corner that catches riders out" Ryans Bend he called it!
so it will be interesting today to see how many of 140 plus riders do get caught out.

good on you Ryan for doing your best to stop anyone else getting hurt.

[cynna]

the dazzle paint was still there on sunday. i was going the other way so wouldnt have noticed the corner if it wasnt there. although the bule shed wasnt hard to miss

went back over the corner a few times to get used to it for next time. didnt go that fast so it wasnt a problem but i can see how it catches so many people out

thanks for marking it out Coonyer

[JATZ]

Me to :banana:

Love you to Skiddy.

Cheers R

AWWWWW.

I didn't get any, you fullahs got some,Mrs jatz got some, I feel all left out:crybaby:

BUT.........'least I get quoted in his signature.:bleh:(shame he didn't Quote all the post)

[Padmei]

AWWWWW.

I didn't get any, you fullahs got some,Mrs jatz got some, I feel all left out:crybaby:

BUT.........'least I get quoted in his signature.:bleh:(shame he didn't Quote all the post)

Damn... another club I haven't been invited to join yet. Come on Skidmarks- ya moron:bash:

[babysteps]

Okay so I've read the thread (well, most of it!) and I am completely confounded by the level of resistance to Ryans' re-engineering suggestions with a view to making 'The Corner' more obvious.

As somebody who has spent many days and weeks undertaking Search and Rescue missions to pull people out of the bush, both inexperienced fools and experienced experts, and as somebody who has lost a very good (and experienced) friend to the bush I whole heartedly support Ryans' proposal.

I would counsel that the cost of a rescue, the human cost to the injured party and their families (Good on ya MagicFairy!) then the efforts required to modify a track to 'assist', not nanny, is a small price to pay.

The trouble is it is always the same people that are willing to spend time supporting the continuity of a sport, and always the same 'others' that steadfastly refuse to contribute.

Based on your comments SkidMark (since we've never met) I can only assume that be you experienced or otherwise, you fall into the 'Fools' camp who takes everything they can from a sport and seldom contributes to the sport. To you I say, enjoy it while it lasts and for as long as you enjoy your temporary residency status on this planet.

I would also advise, that due to attitudes such the one you have displayed on this thread, I have since quit Search and Rescue and developed a somewhat reluctant belief in Darwinism - the strongest will survive and the dumbest will fall short. 'Gene-o-Kleen' if you like!

Post of the Decade TBQFH. :niceone:

[Racing Dave]

Hi all,

As most know, the Yamaha Safari sent 140 riders through the Rainbow last Monday, after specifically warning them the night before of the history of the vital bend. I explained that this was an experiment in education, and that the exam was a practical one, to be held 12 hours later. No one crashed on THE corner. However, I have just (this morning) learnt that in 2004 a group of three riders all sailed in together, with the quickest going over the bars in a heap, but no harm done to any. Very lucky.

However, again, two riders did crash in the Rainbow during the Safari, both at the same place (separately), and both for the same reason - inattention. This was at the final ford, heading north (Nocatchem Stream), on a straight piece of sealed road with not only perfect visibility on a dry and sunny day, but there's also a sign warning of the impending water crossing. Both locked the front wheel on the approach to the crest, both fell heavily (one KTM 400, one DR 650) with the bikes and riders ending up in the stream, the Suzuki rider breaking his leg and (after toughing it out by riding to St Arnaud) getting an ambulance ride to Nelson.

When I approached Ryan's Bend, I felt the dazzled stones were the best way to indicate 'something' about the road requires extra care, and that should be enough for the thinking rider. For those who can't concentrate on their riding, there's nothing you can do.

In my opinion, Ryan has done the right thing with the dazzled rocks, and copped on the chin all the criticism that has followed.

Also on the Safari, another rider got an ambulance and helicopter ride out from Random Spur Road, after an endo into a deep hole as a consequence of following too closely in heavy dust. There is no intention of further marking this hazard!

I say again, and for my final time on this thread, ride to the conditions, think about your riding all the time, and pay attention.

To those Safari riders who did exactly that (by far the majority), a wonderful and safe three days adventuring was had, with new places enjoyed in (mostly) great weather, and in good company.

There's the beginning of a plan for 2010, details from Mike Britton in due course.

Dave B

[Aslan]

interesting post Racing Dave - on the two day 'relaxed' version of the DB1000 I to almost came to grief when approaching the ford at Nocatchem Stream as we were leaving the Rainbow on the Saturday evening.

I was carrying too much speed as I crested the approach to the ford - applied sufficient braking to recover in time but heard the squeal of the tyres of my DRZ400 mounted friend riding close behind who almost tail gated me!

He acknowledges he was not concentrating at the time - being distracted he says by the sign proclaiming the name of the stream 'Nocatchem'.

So ...... this motorcycling - which for many of us on here is a passion requires absolute concentration 100% of the time IMO

Cheers Aslan

[NordieBoy]

I was carrying too much speed as I crested the approach to the ford - applied sufficient braking to recover in time but heard the squeal of the tyres of my DRZ400 mounted friend riding close behind who almost tail gated me!

That was a wicked fishtail Fred did :D

[cooneyr]

Hi all,

As most know, the Yamaha Safari sent 140 riders through the Rainbow last Monday, after specifically warning them the night before of the history of the vital bend. I explained that this was an experiment in education, and that the exam was a practical one, to be held 12 hours later. No one crashed on THE corner....

Thanks for the info Dave. While the lack of crashing doesnt help my case with the Station Manager the outcome is a bloody good one. Dispite this (exelent) outcome I still intend on talking to the Station Manager about modifying the bushes in the near future. I reitterate to all that the final decision is his, whatever he decides.

Cheers R

[Padmei]

That was a wicked fishtail Fred did :D

+1 :lol: I think the ham shifted & put him of balance

[cooneyr]

Finally managed to get hold of the Station Manager last night. He had not managed to get out to the corner as he though he might a couple of Fridays ago, so he hasn't made any decisions yet. If he can see any benefit in shifting some bushes, his plan is to get the Transpower guys to swing an excavator bucket around a bit when the excavator goes through next . I mentioned that a few mates were keen to get out there with a shovel but he is not at all keen on that which I can understand - OSH and all that.

When I go through late this year I'll have a look and see if anything has been done and chase it more then if necessary. So this "mission" of mine is not concluded but we can do no more ourselves.

In some ways, all the controversy of this thread has been successful, in that issue has been highlighted and more people know where the corner is so can treat it with the respect it deserves.

Cheers R

[ducatijim]

and more people know where the corner is so can treat it with the respect it deserves.

Cheers R

I will enjoy lookn out 4 it when thru on Feb 15, can't wait!

[skidMark]

Thanks for the info Dave. While the lack of crashing doesnt help my case with the Station Manager the outcome is a bloody good one. Dispite this (exelent) outcome I still intend on talking to the Station Manager about modifying the bushes in the near future. I reitterate to all that the final decision is his, whatever he decides.

Cheers R

I still think you shouldnt be adventure riding if you require bushes to be moved.

I seem to be the only one that sees the modified picture in an earlier post going "move these bushes....to here" , and i laugh my arse off, its pathetic...

Hmmm corner on an adventure road thats not very safe SO LETS MOVE THE FUCKING TREES???!?!?!

Its bloodey ridiculous.

[Padmei]

Hey look whos back... How was borstal Skiddy?

[reofix]

"I still think you shouldnt be adventure riding if you require bushes to be moved."
I totally agree

[Woodman]

"I still think you shouldnt be adventure riding if you require bushes to be moved."
I totally agree

Are you trying to make rules ???

[reofix]

nope... would just prefer those that like warning notices and engineered corners didnt impose themselves on the last pieces of New Zealand landscape free of them

[Woodman]

nope... would just prefer those that like warning notices and engineered corners didnt impose themselves on the last pieces of New Zealand landscape free of them

I think the fence looks comfy.

[reofix]

yeah well its a huge question really... freedom of and for the individual vs the state knows best.... take up your placard and let battle commence!!!

[NordieBoy]

nope... would just prefer those that like warning notices and engineered corners didnt impose themselves on the last pieces of New Zealand landscape free of them

They have warning notices on the fords.
ALL the corners are "engineered". This one out of how many hundred could do with a tweak.




Just to re-cap.
CooneyR breaks his neck on a corner and has to get helicoptered out.
One of his mates who was aware of the corner breaks his collarbone on it.
Another mate who was aware of the corner seriously injures himself.

3 choices.
1. Do nothing and hope noone kills themselves on it.
2. Educate everyone.
3. Spend an hour or 2 moving some shrubs.

[Woodman]

yeah well its a huge question really... freedom of and for the individual vs the state knows best.... take up your placard and let battle commence!!!

Yeah well I spose the next logical step if history is anything to go by is that someone will have a serious crash up there and want someone to blame. The media will get hold of it and beat up the story to make it more entertaining, and then there will be a shit fight between every do-gooder pinko bearded twat in this fair land. They will blame cooneyr for not trimming the bushes or they might blame the roads owners for owning the road. There is a lack of personal responsibility in NZ at the moment, and while I am gonna sit on the fence here to a certain degree I am leaning on the side of the rider/driver to be responsible for their own riding/driving. At the end of the day I don't want it closed and not just cos I haven't been over it yet.:crybaby:

[Balrog]

Well I think deceptive corners are the bane of motorcyclists.
They trick riders into approaching a corner in a different manner than they otherwise would do.

This one is a real good example and the proof is in the number of crashes that have already occured this year.

I think that if the scrub was cut back a bit so that the true nature of the corner could be seen 99% of travellers
wouldn't even know it had been done.
Leaving them to fall off in one of the dozens of real off road challenges that road provides.

Even if you think it would never happen to you, do you really want it to keep happening to other fellow riders?

I don't, Cooneyr gets my support.

Dictionary Information: Definition Deceptive
Tending to deceive; having power to mislead, or impress with false opinions; as,
a deceptive countenance or appearance. "Language altogether deceptive, and hiding the deeper reality from our eyes."

[Underground]

Balrog , I think thats the corner you got all sideways on when I was following you on the DB ! I had a good look at it the other day and it is a very 'ordinary' corner ... but circumstances certainly make it 'deceptive' as the statistics prove.

[buggsubique]

Balrog , I think thats the corner you got all sideways on when I was following you on the DB !

Really? I swear I hardly remember it...

You'da been disappointed in me on Saturday then...highsided on a tarseal corner out at Rarangi. The MT21 came right round till I was facing back at Zerax before spittin me off. Might need to get some lessons off shitStain on how to ride like an absolute legend :girlfight:.

Mind you it was on hot tar with an 80% fucked tyre trying to motard it so I might be alright.

[NordieBoy]

Mind you it was on hot tar with an 80% fucked tyre trying to motard it so I might be alright.

Wait 'till it's bald then it'll be a race tyre and you'll be sweet.

[helenoftroy]

I still think you shouldnt be adventure riding if you require bushes to be moved.

I seem to be the only one that sees the modified picture in an earlier post going "move these bushes....to here" , and i laugh my arse off, its pathetic...

Hmmm corner on an adventure road thats not very safe SO LETS MOVE THE FUCKING TREES???!?!?!

Its bloodey ridiculous.
I SO look forward to meeting you one day.....theres some things Im dying to say to you....:oi-grr:

Well I think deceptive corners are the bane of motorcyclists.
They trick riders into approaching a corner in a different manner than they otherwise would do.

This one is a real good example and the proof is in the number of crashes that have already occured this year.

I think that if the scrub was cut back a bit so that the true nature of the corner could be seen 99% of travellers
wouldn't even know it had been done.
Leaving them to fall off in one of the dozens of real off road challenges that road provides.
Even if you think it would never happen to you, do you really want it to keep happening to other fellow riders?
I don't, Cooneyr gets my support.
[/I]
totally agree:Punk:

[Taz]

Mmmm the rainbow..... Such fond memories.

[kiwiklr]

A few mates and I did the Rainbow last year and as the manager is my mates wife cousin we stayed with them and discussed the issues of the road in some depth, he is a responsible sort of bloke that realises the issues with the road but he is hamstrung by the large costs of doing anything to the road, basically dealing with keeping the road open after slips, washouts etc is incredibly expensive due to isolation etc..And at the end of the day, it is a private road and anyone using it takes the risk and has to take responsibility for riding within the capability of the bike and rider.

Isnt that why we like "adventure" riding anyway?

[PLUG]

I SO look forward to meeting you one day.....theres some things Im dying to say to you....:oi-grr:

just look for a cock with ears ... that'll be our skiddy

[jezzaNZ]

For my 2 cents worth I have ridden this corner several times now, on my fist visit I managed to keep the bike upright only making a small detour off-road through swampy ground at the end of the corner. When I arrived at the old farm house to pay my $10 the occupant noticed the mud on my bike and asked if I had discovered "the corner".

A short conversation ensued and it appears that the corner has clamed many vehicles of the 4 wheeled variety also. I do however agree that adv riding is about taking risks and riding to your ability, I do not however agree removing vegetation is the right thing to do either. Given the volume of traffic that this road has during the summer months, and I an not talking about born again bikers on adventure bikes pulling the ton on single roads (no offence intended), should there not at least be an advisory speed sign or hazard warning for the uninitiated?.:whistle:

Jez

[reofix]

jezza..NO there should not be a warning sign or advisory!!! road riders have those... adventure riders have their skill and their eyes... and get to nurse their wounds alone!!!

[buggsubique]

We might as well start a debate on ending poverty, saving starving kids and achieving world peace.:zzzz: Opinion will always be divided.

[jezzaNZ]

We might as well start a debate on ending poverty, saving starving kids and achieving world peace.:zzzz: Opinion will always be divided.

I hear what you are saying......x1:bash:

[Phreaky Phil]

The Rainbow Road is an awesome ADVENTURE road running through some spectacular scenery. I dont care how tricky the corners are, I DONT WANT TO SEE IT FULL OF SIGNS. Roads and tracks like this should be ridden to what you can see in front of you. Your accident was unfortunate and others that fell on the DB1000 were probably going to quickly trying to cover 1000km in a day

[young1]

What is this with the signs thing again, I thought the general agreement last year was that no way did we want to put signs on a road like this (next it will be a white line down the middle of the road - now that is an idea.... ha ha ). I thought the agreed approach was to move, trim, stunt, weed eat, mow, etc etc the relevent bushes and that was it?

Streuth lets stop talking on here about it and the next one through (as they say in the Nike advert) "Just do it!"

[cooneyr]

The Rainbow Road is an awesome ADVENTURE road running through some spectacular scenery. I dont care how tricky the corners are, I DONT WANT TO SEE IT FULL OF SIGNS. Roads and tracks like this should be ridden to what you can see in front of you. Your accident was unfortunate and others that fell on the DB1000 were probably going to quickly trying to cover 1000km in a day

The Station Manager will not let a sign be put up so no risk of the road becomming "full of signs". Interesting to note though that DOC are doing a "good" job of putting signs on the remaining 60ish kms of the "Rainbow Road" that passes through the Molesworth. Only about 40kms of the "Rainbow Road" passes through Rainbow Station. THE corner is on Rainbow Station land.

Yes I accept responsibility for my accident but that doesn't explain why others keep falling off there. There was only 1 other crash at the corner on all three of the DB1k's to date. Most of the other crashes (there has been 10's of crashes I've heard of) have been on private rides. Going quick to complete the DB1k is not a valid excuse/reason.


What is this with the signs thing again, I thought the general agreement last year was that no way did we want to put signs on a road like this (next it will be a white line down the middle of the road - now that is an idea.... ha ha ). I thought the agreed approach was to move, trim, stunt, weed eat, mow, etc etc the relevent bushes and that was it?

Streuth lets stop talking on here about it and the next one through (as they say in the Nike advert) "Just do it!"

I wish we could. See this post (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1900155&postcount=136). We have to leave it to the Station Manager. I will follow up next seasons or when I next go through.

Cheers R

[young1]

We have to leave it to the Station Manager. I will follow up next seasons or when I next go through.

Cheers R

Thanks, even if we can do nothing this thread has at least raised awareness that there is a mongrel of a corner out there waiting to trip us up!

Mike

[Taz]

Thanks, even if we can do nothing this thread has at least raised awareness that there is a mongrel of a corner out there waiting to trip us up!

Mike
There's more than one out there.

[NordieBoy]

Your accident was unfortunate and others that fell on the DB1000 were probably going to quickly trying to cover 1000km in a day

1000km in 2 days.

[reofix]

Almost all bike accidents are a result of people riding outside their stopping distance...end of story

[cooneyr]

Almost all bike accidents are a result of people riding outside their stopping distance...end of story

I'm sorry dude but that is a crock of shit. Read my three E's post here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1879485&postcount=16).

First point - You can only ride to the conditions you can perceive - i.e environment. If the environment is telling you something that is untrue = unwanted outcome i.e. what this corner does. There is not many if any instances of this on public roads cause they tend to get dealt to quick smart. Doesn't mean this type of situation doesn't occur. Oil/deisel/slipery "stuff" on the road is the other aspect where the environment isn't/doesn't always giving you the full picture.

Second point - Almost all is far to strong a statement (This is what I'm really taking exception to). People regularly interrogate accident records looking for trends i.e. what can be done to reduce the number of accidents. If it was this simple, which is isn't, there would be a clear message/education campaign out there about the issue. Have a look at this (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf) MOT published document. If you look at the pie chart at the top of page 4 titled "Who was at fault?" you can see that 58% of the time the riders is at fault, has primary or partial responsibility. Also 39% of the time it is clearly the responsibility of another party. Again - almost all is far to strong, crash causes are not that clear cut.

Cheers R

[warewolf]

Almost all bike accidents are a result of people riding outside their stopping distance...end of story


I'm sorry dude but that is a crock of shit. Read my three E's post here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1879485&postcount=16).

First point - You can only ride to the conditions you can perceive - i.e environment. If the environment is telling you something that is untrue = unwanted outcome i.e. what this corner does. There is not many if any instances of this on public roads cause they tend to get dealt to quick smart.And in a nutshell, that is what this situation is all about.

No amount of trite ride-to-the-conditions claptrap will change the fact that this corner is deceptive and a proven problem to a large cross-section of motorists. Some subtle engineering will remove a signficant chunk of the gotcha factor without removing anyone's "widlerness" experience, nor absolve drivers from taking due care.

Get over it.

[reofix]

interpreted via a filter for the purposes of the interpreter... dont ride outside your stopping distance and stay alive... easy really

[warewolf]

What do you do when your stopping distance changes?

[Ally67]

What do you do when your stopping distance changes?

I think you sumed it up with your post on page 4 best werewolf

To quote

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp201/ztaj/beatdeadhorse.gif

jatz....

[Woodman]

My father was setting up the clip ons and rear sets on a classic bike in the shed once. The bike had no wheels on it and was on quite a high stand. he was sitting on it getting an idea of angles etc when the bike fell off the stand and he fell and knocked himself unconscious and spent 2 nights in hospital.

Was speed or stopping distance to blame in this accident????

[Padmei]

I reckon a sign would have been the best solution in this situation. Cutting back the vegetation probably would have had a drastic effect when your mum saw it in the morning

[NordieBoy]

Now if he'd stopped before he hit the ground...

[Underground]

ATGATT ,you should always wear your helmet

[warewolf]

Man: 0
Shed: 1

The shed should have been traveling at a speed it could stop in the distance it could see. Ask anybody.

[reofix]

keep acting stoopid and you dont get to breed...much to the relief of the species

[reofix]

Colin ... your stopping distance is based on your speed... sometimes 200 k is safe ... sometimes 20 k is too fast ... figure it out and survive

[Transalper]

keep acting stoopid and you dont get to breed...much to the relief of the species

Sounds good in theory, but from what I've seen outside in this world, the stupid people have a heap of kids when very young before their stupidity 'gets' them, where as the smart people just have one or two kids much later in life... if a stupid person don't kill em first.

Woops, I may be wandering :Offtopic:

[reofix]

fair comment

[warewolf]

Colin ... your stopping distance is based on your speed... sometimes 200 k is safe ... sometimes 20 k is too fast ... figure it out and surviveBased on speed? Really? Never would have thought. :no:

What do you do when it goes from 200 to 20 in less space than the difference in stopping distance?

[PLUG]

but from what I've seen outside in this world, the stupid people have a heap of kids when very young before their stupidity 'gets' them, where as the smart people just have one or two kids much later in life... if a stupid person don't kill em first.

bling to you my friend

[Deereboy]

http://GS 002

[buggsubique]

awesome first post:blink:. Have some bling!

[FJRider]

My father was setting up the clip ons and rear sets on a classic bike in the shed once. The bike had no wheels on it and was on quite a high stand. he was sitting on it getting an idea of angles etc when the bike fell off the stand and he fell and knocked himself unconscious and spent 2 nights in hospital.

Was speed or stopping distance to blame in this accident????

Obviously the shed floor was far too high... should have got it lowered immediately...

[FJRider]

There is not many if any instances of this on public roads cause they tend to get dealt to quick smart. Doesn't mean this type of situation doesn't occur. Oil/deisel/slipery "stuff" on the road is the other aspect where the environment isn't/doesn't always giving you the full picture.

if you look at the pie chart at the top of page 4 titled "Who was at fault?" you can see that 58% of the time the riders is at fault, has primary or partial responsibility. Also 39% of the time it is clearly the responsibility of another party. Again - almost all is far to strong, crash causes are not that clear cut.

Cheers R

Point one ..... this is not about a corner on a public road and no comparison to one should be made, in this respect.

Point two..... Under the ACC's "no fault" insurance policy, little matters who was at fault. Hospital care is funded for those that need it.

Point three.... the "other party" is/could be, the station owner/manager... his views/opinions/intended actions, have already been reported in this thread.

Point four...... We are responsible for our own actions... and the results of those actions...

[cooneyr]

Dude go back and read my post and read it again thinking about the context of the points you have made below. You obviously don't understand the intent, hence the intent of this thread. Your "points" are irrelevant and off topic.


Point one ..... this is not about a corner on a public road and no comparison to one should be made, in this respect.

Point two..... Under the ACC's "no fault" insurance policy, little matters who was at fault. Hospital care is funded for those that need it.

Point three.... the "other party" is/could be, the station owner/manager... his views/opinions/intended actions, have already been reported in this thread.

Point four...... We are responsible for our own actions... and the results of those actions...

[reofix]

Warewolf.......500000k's on bikes and you know what ... it has NEVER happened.

FIGURE IT OUT!!!

[reofix]

What a load of pomparse nonsense... He disagrees with you and you get to serve it up somehow... Not even!!!!!

[warewolf]

Warewolf.......500000k's on bikes and you know what ... it has NEVER happened.

FIGURE IT OUT!!!I have figured it out, umm, we can skip all the my-dad-is-bigger'n-your-dad crap, or take it as said, whichever you prefer. :scooter:

But I think you will find it happens more than you think; credit the road engineers who give the game away with signage.

[_Shrek_]

Sounds good in theory, but from what I've seen outside in this world, the stupid people have a heap of kids when very young before their stupidity 'gets' them, where as the smart people just have one or two kids much later in life... if a stupid person don't kill em first.

Woops, I may be wandering :Offtopic:

:Pokey: you calling me stupid

[reofix]

And still ya reckon that the advisable speed goes from 200 to 20 without reason in a nano .. good luck out there

[FJRider]

Point ....one.


Your words.....




As for the so called experts - I'm a civil engineer and have been doing this sort of stuff (investigations and developing options) on public roads for almost 10 years.

[FJRider]

Point ....two

Your words.



On the 6th of April 2007 I was riding north through the Rainbow when I crashed into a ditch on the outside of a corner. Long story short I had to be extracted by a chopper as I had a broken neck. At the time I heard a bit of anecdotal evidence that the corner catches out a lot of people whether they are on two wheels or four. There was talk at the time of somehow marking/signing/altering the corner to try and stop the crashes but I thought there was a fair bit of stupidity on my behalf hence nothing was done.

[FJRider]

Point ....three.

Your words.



The Station Manager will not let a sign be put up so no risk of the road becomming "full of signs". Interesting to note though that DOC are doing a "good" job of putting signs on the remaining 60ish kms of the "Rainbow Road" that passes through the Molesworth. Only about 40kms of the "Rainbow Road" passes through Rainbow Station. THE corner is on Rainbow Station land.

[FJRider]

Point... four.

Your words.




Yes I accept responsibility for my accident but that doesn't explain why others keep falling off there. There was only 1 other crash at the corner on all three of the DB1k's to date. Most of the other crashes (there has been 10's of crashes I've heard of) have been on private rides. Going quick to complete the DB1k is not a valid excuse/reason.

[FJRider]

Dude go back and read my post and read it again thinking about the context of the points you have made below. You obviously don't understand the intent, hence the intent of this thread. Your "points" are irrelevant and off topic.

OK... I read it...

It is interesting that when YOU say it, it is ok. When I say it... it is irrelevant and off topic. I am curious to know how you come to that conclusion... ???

As I have said in an earlier post... I believe this exercise in corner manipulation, is in exorcisism of personal demons. Good luck with that. But dont let it get the better of you.

You obviously do not understand the purpose and intent of MY posts... hence the belief (my belief) that you have better, and more constructive things to occupy your time, and energy. If you don't ... you must have a sad life.

[Padmei]

Man I don't think I've come across a thread that has had so many knives being twisted in backs - Can't we just let this thread die a natural death & carry on with something a bit more positive

[Woodman]

Man I don't think I've come across a thread that has had so many knives being twisted in backs - Can't we just let this thread die a natural death & carry on with something a bit more positive

I agree, the whole argument has got silly.
The fact that their is a road their at all means that the environment has been changed to allow vehicles access. All of the roads we ride on get modified/fixed sooner or later, and usually without us even noticing. If you guys want a real adventure in the wilderness you need to find somewhere with no roads/tracks at all otherwise you are just kidding yourselves.
This post has gone from one guy wanting to cut some bushes down to him getting psycho-analysed, to commentary on this countries gene pool.
Again it is just silly.

[CookMySock]

If there is a dangerous tree on the side of the road just cut the fucker down. No one gives a shit, and if they do - well the deed is done now and you are long gone. Just do it.

Steve

[Deereboy]

Reckon I've been there done that

[CrazyFrog]

Reckon I've been there done that

Looks like Santa got his sleigh stuck......are the presents going to be late this year???

[cooneyr]

Reckon I've been there done that

No need for a side stand when you have BMW jugs!

Cheers R

[Woodman]

This old chestnut again.

yesterday when we were paying the rainbow gate guy he commented that none of our bikes were covered in mud so we must have got round the tricky corner ok and not ended up in the swamp like a lot of bikes seem to.

Interesting I thought, and I now know which corner it is . Got round ok, but can see how it could go pear shaped.

[buggsubique]

This old chestnut again.

yesterday when we were paying the rainbow gate guy he commented that none of our bikes were covered in mud so we must have got round the tricky corner ok and not ended up in the swamp like a lot of bikes seem to.

Interesting I thought, and I now know which corner it is . Got round ok, but can see how it could go pear shaped.

I thought this thread was PD'd a couple of years ago?

[alane]

YEP! On the Rainbow ,along the section that goe,s alongside the river.

Was cranking the old XT600 up a bit to get to Nelson befor dark, if I recall rightly.
Anyway ,was looking well ahead @ the road ,& miscalculated an inbend,took the wrong line,& found myself RIGHT ON THE EDGE of the bank. :shit:
Must have been just centimeters from going over.The river was RIGHT THERE----down the bank.
Was a real "puckering" moment,----but then,might have saved me embaressment on "Ryan,s" corner. :blink:--as i did slow down a bit ,after that.
Was in too big a hurry to go back & look @ the wheeltracks,but I,m shure they would have been impresive/scary.

[Padmei]

Yep even tho i'm aware of it, it snuck up on me again. Mind you so did the bend at Bell/Todd??? ford middle of the Molesworth. That one has a convenient drop down to a level patch - easier than dropping the bike:confused:

[cooneyr]

Bloody Hell. Talk about a thread dredge. This thread never made PD but it certainly stirred up some shit.

Interesting comments Woodman from the gate guy. Obviously they still know it is a gotcha corner. I asked about tweaking it but never had much luck convincing the Cocky it was a good idea. He said when the heavy gear went through the next season they would "tweak" the bushes to make it more obvious were the road goes but obviously its not happened.

Not sure your quite in the right place alane. It is a left hander heading north towards Nelson that has a swampy ditch about 1m deep on the outside, not a bank into the river.

I'll never forget the damn corner. We still look for it if we ever fly to/from NN.

Cheers R

[NordieBoy]

----but then,might have saved me embaressment on "Ryan,s" corner. :blink:--as i did slow down a bit ,after that.


Not sure your quite in the right place alane. It is a left hander heading north towards Nelson that has a swampy ditch about 1m deep on the outside, not a bank into the river.

The bank into the river slowed him down a bit and saved him from going off on your corner further on...

[Transalper]

I was looking for it day before yesterday but went straight past it. Think it was close to where the bee hives are right now but we got to the bridge without being sure so definitely missed it. Maybe it just looks different at two up on the Transalp speeds.

[alane]

The bank into the river slowed him down a bit and saved him from going off on your corner further on...

You,ve got it Nordie! :apumpin:

That Mrs Cooneys little boy never did pay attention to detail.:no: :laugh:

I think I,ve got it right,(where the corner is)in my "on board computa".
Is that where "Tuckerbag" came to grief on one of the Nth,n Dusty Butt,s???
And ,yea,the inbend I,m talking abought---,one of several, is---after looking @ a map--- ,back where the road runs abought 30/50 meters abouve the Wairau river,just befor the real narrow gorgeee bit.

[OV Lander]

Ahem.. "PD"???

[Jantar]

Moderator's Note

PD stands for Pointless Drivel. Its where threads go that end up way off topic, or become abusive or sensless. It also where a lot of fun threads are. Threads that are worth reading, but just don't have any point to them.

This thread was NEVER going there. It's too important, both from an interest and a safety perspective. I'll spend time cleaning up any serious drivel in this thread rather than send it to PD.