WR450 F or CRF450 X

[Petsar68]

I am a total novice when it comes to trail riding so would be interested in your opinions. I wont be going at it hardcore as most of my riding will be with my son on his TTR110. I will be looking to buy a 09 model from a dealer on the South Island. Would i be better off with a 250 or will i regret it a year down the line ?
I know its a personal choice but your opinions / advice are appreciated.
Thanks.

[vazza]

Id be going for a WR450, word and mouth they're supposed to be really good. My dad had an CRF and found that it was far to heavy.

What bike are you currently riding at the moment?

[noobi]

See if you can test ride the 250 version of each first, then the 450
When kiwi rider reviewed the 450 enduro bike the Yamaha won, then the KTM, then the Honda and the Kawasaki
They also said it was all down to preference the Kawasaki was the more comfortable bike and the Yamaha and KTM were enduro race machines right out of the box
but the Yamaha was also the second most expensive only 500 cheaper than the KTM

[xxblackbirdxx]

I am a total novice when it comes to trail riding so would be interested in your opinions. I wont be going at it hardcore as most of my riding will be with my son on his TTR110. I will be looking to buy a 09 model from a dealer on the South Island. Would i be better off with a 250 or will i regret it a year down the line ?
I know its a personal choice but your opinions / advice are appreciated.
Thanks.

I'd go for WR, i kinda like the klx too, rode it a year back. The CRF450X is due with fuel injection next year supposedly. I am jealous ! you are spoilt for choice.

[Petsar68]

The fact i am 5ft 9 small would that be an issue on the WR ? I work overseas so cant pop down to the dealer to sit on one.

I dont currently have a bike but owned a CBR600 a few years ago.

Thanks in advance.

[xxblackbirdxx]

The fact i am 5ft 9 small would that be an issue on the WR ? I work overseas so cant pop down to the dealer to sit on one.

I dont currently have a bike but owned a CBR600 a few years ago.

Thanks in advance.

I'm 5"7, And i manage just fine. At 5"9 , you'd be getting atleast one foot flat on the ground

[Petsar68]

I'm 5"7, And i manage just fine. At 5"9 , you'd be getting atleast one foot flat on the ground

Thats good to know :niceone:

[warewolf]

A bit of a left-field suggestion: could you pass on the 250 to your son in the foreseeable future? Would that be feasible and/or worth your while? On a 110 now I'd expect he is a growing lad, if so the 250 would be a better step up before the 450.

For non-hardcore a 250 would certainly cut it power-wise, particularly in company of a 110. You could be lazier on the 450 with its extra grunt.

FWIW when the WR250F was released, lots of them were ridden by guys that had traded down from the 450 and preferred the smaller bike. They felt more in control, and after a good day's ride less like they'd been over Niagara Falls in a barrel - and no slower.

[krad_nz]

I wouldn't go assuming that because you've had a CBR600 that a 250 dirt bike would be too slow for you. If you can try both, you will probably be surprised.

I've heard first hand accounts from guys that swear they are faster on a 250 compared to their 450s. This was MX though.

Its a bit less to pick up too :)

[barty5]

I would go with the yamaha sat on a crf450x couple a weeks back and stuff thrown that round the bush or trackdam it was heavy and for that matter the crf450r didnt feel much better. Was rupecopp 1st comment before i st on them as well.

[B0000M]

I wouldn't go assuming that because you've had a CBR600 that a 250 dirt bike would be too slow for you. If you can try both, you will probably be surprised.

I've heard first hand accounts from guys that swear they are faster on a 250 compared to their 450s. This was MX though.

Its a bit less to pick up too :)

ill also back that comment, dirt bikes give a totally differnt feel. keep in mind 450s are pretty much as big as they come, so compare this to say a 1100cc road bike, while the 250 is mid size, so compare that to a 600, and the 125s are the little ones, compare this to the road 250;

a 250 dirt bike doesnt take 7-10 working days to get the revs up like a 250 road bike will, as your top speed is around 100kph on most dirt bikes, they are geard accordingly, if you weigh probably less than 90kg you will find the 450 too much for you if its your first dirt bike.


on that note, get a 2 stroke! lol

[cheese]

WRs, CRFX's and KLX450s are all heavy. they have to hold a battery and starter motor so they are all about 10kg heavier.

[Paulus]

Don't know if its an issue or not but WRs can be bought road legal and CRFs not. Both too much for a beginner (IMHO) and will more likely put you off. Start out smaller (KTM 200 EXC maybe?).

[takitimu]

WRs, CRFX's and KLX450s are all heavy. they have to hold a battery and starter motor so they are all about 10kg heavier.

Umm yeah, your not wrong there.

The WR250F goes well with a YZ muffler & FMF Mega bomb header, kinda depends how much tight stuff will be ridden, but those Yamaha's make some seriously nice power & don't cook in the bush like the CR450/250x's seem to ( standard ).

[barty5]

Crf also has a smaller tank 7.2ltr compared to 8ltr not a lot but with the WR comin in at 112kgs dry and the crfin at 122 thats a good 5kg more to carry around.
Do the crf450x have the same front pipe as the crf450r is so youll be getting a portable shovel write up i have i mag at home has pic of one out in the mud and that new front collects the mud just piles up on top of it worse than others by far.

[warewolf]

KTM 200 EXC maybe?Don't be fooled by the capacity, that is not a beginner's bike. Way too feisty to ride. The 250/300 2Ts are far more relaxed, but have more grunt of course... more on par with the 450Fs.

[Paulus]

Don't be fooled by the capacity, that is not a beginner's bike. Way too feisty to ride. The 250/300 2Ts are far more relaxed, but have more grunt of course... more on par with the 450Fs.

I guess I'm thinking back to the legions of kiwis that learned to ride on a KDX200 and I sort of think of the 200EXC as a modernised KDX200. Sorry if that was a bum steer. Does tuning the PV not help?

I still think a 120kg 45hp bike is too much for a beginner.

[barty5]

[QUOTE=Paulus;1882863]I sort of think of the 200EXC as a modernised KDX200.

your not the only one (now waiting for the back lash)

[Crisis management]

Incoming.....

I rode both the KDX and 200 EXC when starting out looking for a first trail bike and chose the KTM as it was better equiped (suspension, brakes) and a better power plant with good mid range and plenty up top. The seat of the pants difference was: KDX = easy ride, KTM = respect required.

Having said that I'd recomend the KTM as a first bike as long as you know how to ride and can respect the power available. The KDX is ok but I suspect it's a bike you will grow out of whereas the KTM can be kept for years.

[ruphus]

I've riden both the WR250f and CRF250x. To me the WR felt more balanced and lighter. I'm not a skinny person (117kgs) so had the suspension done when I bought one. There's plenty of power in the mid/top to get you into trouble but you have to be careful with your gear selections on big hill climbs.

I was a complete noob when it came to dirt riding only having ridden road bikes and the electric start helped big time.

[secondfield]

Or if you want to play it safe without the higher financial outlay try a late 90's XR250 or 400 (or DRZ250/350/400). Great off road learners bikes (maybe not the 400 though), tough, dependable .. no fouled plugs from putting around on a race spec 2T .. Id go for a 97-98 XR250.

You will probably get more initial satisfaction if on a mellow 4T if your new to off road riding. Just keeping upright on a snotty trail for a beginner can be enough of a mission let alone keeping a race bike somewhat on the pipe over terrain. The modern 450's (mx type) tend to have very little flywheel weight and tend to stall often if your not used to riding the dirt.

I wouldnt go for a 450 straight away, when you get tired these things can be a handful and detract from riding pleasure if your not bike fit... (for offroad riding that is). A kdx 200 you will enjoy also, although I would go for an XR first time ..

[B0000M]

no fouled plugs from putting around on a race spec 2T

time to go off on yet another tangent!!

does this actually happen?

ive done my fair share of chugging thru the bush on my CR's over the years- recently after the mrs had a big crash about 15km into a 45km loop in taupo i putted behind her the whole way back - barely getting off idle, ive NEVER had a plug foul up on a bike.

so does it actually happen to properly tuned bikes or is this just a myth that 4 strokers make up as an excuse for them to be pussys and not ride 2 strokes?

[barty5]

time to go off on yet another tangent!!

does this actually happen?

ive done my fair share of chugging thru the bush on my CR's over the years- recently after the mrs had a big crash about 15km into a 45km loop in taupo i putted behind her the whole way back - barely getting off idle, ive NEVER had a plug foul up on a bike.

so does it actually happen to properly tuned bikes or is this just a myth that 4 strokers make up as an excuse for them to be pussys and not ride 2 strokes?

Who you calling a pussy i ride 4 stroke as preferance put have had both but would agree with you never had a fouled plug on any of my 2strokes i had.
best contact mythbusters i think

[mattwood]

time to go off on yet another tangent!!

does this actually happen?

ive done my fair share of chugging thru the bush on my CR's over the years- recently after the mrs had a big crash about 15km into a 45km loop in taupo i putted behind her the whole way back - barely getting off idle, ive NEVER had a plug foul up on a bike.

so does it actually happen to properly tuned bikes or is this just a myth that 4 strokers make up as an excuse for them to be pussys and not ride 2 strokes?

Ive only ever fouled 1 plug on my 125. First ever trail ride, was putting around out of power band following a mate round, when we came up to a huge ass hill climb. He bailed right at the bottom and i sort of decided to stop then go again.. lol. Hit the hill with no revs at all in second gear (being a noob to a 2 stroke) and just managed to lug it up the hill with it boging and spluttering away. It went for another 20meters or so then stopped and wouldnt start.. needless to say it was a long ass push back to the trailer for a wire brush.. :doh: gave the plug a brush up and a wipe with a cloth, chucked it back in and it started first kick.

[B0000M]

Who you calling a pussy

you lol!

10chars

[noobi]

I have a mate who fouled a plug on his 04' KX250 following dad and I around thunder at noob pace, came down the big hill at the end of the main forest bit and it just died going thru the gate, so we sat and waited by the bulldozer while dad went and got a new plug, put it in and she was sweet again, fair to say he didnt follow us around anymore
But I personally have never fouled a plug, to a point where it wont go, i think its fouled a little bit and wont run right for a while but after some revs it came right again

[warewolf]

Does tuning the PV not help?Not so much in this context, as the experienced riders tend to have it backed off anyway, to tame the hit and deliver better midrange.


I still think a 120kg 45hp bike is too much for a beginner.Do you mean 450F? I'm with you there. Note that the 200EXC is <100kg and somewhere 40-ish hp?? (Haven't found numbers... anyone?).


I rode both the KDX and 200 EXCYou're probably a better judge of this than I. Most of my time on the 200 is racing and/or in very steep unforgiving country.

Plus when I first got it, it wasn't jetted correctly, so would misfire (= erratic power delivery) on gentle throttle until it exploded into the power band. Now that the jetting is right, it has predictable throttle response from idle upwards.

[krad_nz]

When I first got my KDX I fouled the plug a few times. This was mainly because I was riding it like an old four stroke I had previously. Lugging around in a gear higher than I should have been while following SpikedPunch around on her bike when she was first starting out.

Since then I've adjusted my riding style, moved to a hotter plug and dropped the needle down one step. Adjusting my riding style provided the most noticeable difference. Less oily splooge etc.

[Rupe]

I am a total novice when it comes to trail riding so would be interested in your opinions. I wont be going at it hardcore as most of my riding will be with my son on his TTR110. I will be looking to buy a 09 model from a dealer on the South Island. Would i be better off with a 250 or will i regret it a year down the line ?
I know its a personal choice but your opinions / advice are appreciated.
Thanks.

A Wr250 should/will do everything you are after, and you will get a good resale value if you want to try something else. It will also take a lot longer than a year to be able to out ride the bike. This would be the same for the crf250x.

I would pick the WR myself as have heard a lot of good things about them (although never ridden one).

[Paulus]

Do you mean 450F? I'm with you there. Note that the 200EXC is <100kg and somewhere 40-ish hp?? (Haven't found numbers... anyone?).



Yes 450 4t enduro machines. 40-45 hp is the realm of the 250 2t MXer. I'd guess mid 30s for the 200 2t enduro bike.

[Ktmboy]

"I am a total novice when it comes to trail riding so would be interested in your opinions".

I think this sort of answers your question. If I was a total novice then there would be no way that I'd have a 450. If you buy from a dealer that cares then they should explain this to you.

The WR is a fantastic machine and is well recommended and well proven. You won't be disadvantaged for trail riding having a 250. At the end of the day it does come down to the rider.

Happy shopping.

[B0000M]

Yes 450 4t enduro machines. 40-45 hp is the realm of the 250 2t MXer. I'd guess mid 30s for the 200 2t enduro bike.

05 cr250 was rated to be 64hp :)

[Paulus]

05 cr250 was rated to be 64hp :)

Like hell it was. AFAIK the only 250 2t MXer to ever put out a stock 50hp was the 2003 KTM SX. It was nearly unrideable and they detuned it the following year.

Many who rode the old CR250 motor (mechanical PV) preferred it to the newer case reed electric PV model. Newer isn't always better.

[Rupe]

http://www.fixya.com/motorcycles/p983592-honda_cr_250_r_2005

was rated at 59hp not 64 close but not quite. proberly obtainable though with a few bolt ons.

Anyway get the wr250, you could have a go on a demo first.

[tommorth]

ktm 200 and kdx200 dyno mid 30s
http://justkdx.dirtrider.net/dynotesting.html

the new ktm250xc dynos around 37hp

[dammad1]

http://www.fixya.com/motorcycles/p983592-honda_cr_250_r_2005

was rated at 59hp not 64 close but not quite. proberly obtainable though with a few bolt ons.

Anyway get the wr250, you could have a go on a demo first.

That still doesn't sound right.

[cheese]

Many who rode the old CR250 motor (mechanical PV) preferred it to the newer case reed electric PV model. Newer isn't always better.

Its funny, I've ridden both versions of the CR and the Electric version I find much better. Its got heaps more bottom end. The only odd thing I find is that the PV can sometimes pulsate.

On a side note I found that the 02-04 version very different to the 05-06 version. From what I read on the net the 05 onwards version was the one that everyone has issues with in terms of twichy jetting etc. In saying that the only real engine difference I can tell is that the 05 onwards ones are single ring on the piston.

And in real power tests, there was a write up in DRD about a year or so back and they did a dyno on a 06 CR250 with heavier flywheel, FMF expansion chamber and from memory it put out 65hp. I'll see if I can find the article.

[Paulus]

And in real power tests, there was a write up in DRD about a year or so back and they did a dyno on a 06 CR250 with heavier flywheel, FMF expansion chamber and from memory it put out 65hp. I'll see if I can find the article.

I give up. Quite clearly you all have 65hp CR250s. All my ones have obviously been duds. :wacko:

[dammad1]

I give up. Quite clearly you all have 65hp CR250s. All my ones have obviously been duds. :wacko:

LOL here is a review of the 05 MXers with dyno figures

http://www.dirtrider.com/reviews/motocross/141_0503_2005_250cc_two_stroke_compared/index.html

You may get 65 with full on engine mods but it would be a monster.

[B0000M]

i think we are all arguing the same arguement.

i referred to the 65hp ive seen on a uk site, which wouldve been measured at the flywheel - claimed / rated 65hp

actual dyno results will always be significantly lower, so if its doing 65 at the flywhel it probably only is doing 45 at the wheel

[Pierce]

i think we are all arguing the same arguement.

i referred to the 65hp ive seen on a uk site, which wouldve been measured at the flywheel - claimed / rated 65hp

actual dyno results will always be significantly lower, so if its doing 65 at the flywhel it probably only is doing 45 at the wheel

What he's saying is, BUY RED... You won't be dissappointed:banana:

[B0000M]

What he's saying is, BUY RED... You won't be dissappointed:banana:


haha, and that!

also another added bonus of the CRF-X is how upgradable it is, simply swap to CRf-R parts.

but red is good

[cheese]

I give up. Quite clearly you all have 65hp CR250s. All my ones have obviously been duds. :wacko:

Maybe. You must have got the ones that Suzuki Hijack and fuck with to try and make Honda look bad! LOL!!!!!!

[CRF119]

In my opinion i think going to a 450 would be a mistake. Holding on to a 450 is like holding on to a CBR1000RR and you have to do it for a 60km loop with you son following. (If he is following 450 throw alot of dirt even if you try to be nice to it) I ride a CRF450 and around our track i think id be maybe 1 second quicker per lap on a 450 then the 250 but i could spend all day on a 250 and not feel tired but the 450 will have me beat in about 30-40min. Until you can hold a 250f at full throttle out of every corner i don't think you need a 450.

Also they are higher maintance expect the best chain money can buy to last no more then 35-40 hours

[dammad1]

i think we are all arguing the same arguement.

i referred to the 65hp ive seen on a uk site, which wouldve been measured at the flywheel - claimed / rated 65hp

actual dyno results will always be significantly lower, so if its doing 65 at the flywhel it probably only is doing 45 at the wheel

No way you lose 20 HP through a bikes drive train, the losses are far less than that of a car. If they are making 45 at the wheel then they are probably only making around 50 at the flywheel. I have ridden multiple CR250's also and there is no way any of them had near 65 HP.

[CRF119]

Talking to a few of the motard guys most 450 bikes Dyno at 50hp out of the box and with a few mods, tuning, pipe ect you can expect to see 55hp.

[dammad1]

Talking to a few of the motard guys most 450 bikes Dyno at 50hp out of the box and with a few mods, tuning, pipe ect you can expect to see 55hp.

Yep I have heard the same thing about the 450's and the modern ones are certainly putting out more power than a 250 2t.

[warewolf]

Yep I have heard the same thing about the 450's and the modern ones are certainly putting out more power than a 250 2t.They need it to carry around all that heavy, rattly valve gear... :spanking:


http://www.dirtrider.com/reviews/motocross/141_0503_2005_250cc_two_stroke_compared/index.html.A very interesting comment those fellahs made:

The Honda CR250R and Yamaha YZ250 are the only surprises from the dyno. The CR makes better power than expected from our on-track impressions, and the YZ looks a little tame compared with how it felt.If you look at the dyno graphs, the CR is nicely smooth and even, whereas the YZ is lumpy and bumpy. The former is deceptively fast because it makes power with no fuss. The latter feels wildly powerful (but isn't) because the power keeps dipping then chiming in again.

<img src=http://image.dirtrider.com/f/8958723/141_0509_250shoot_18_z.gif>

I've seen dyno software that simulates a drag race based on the power curve. It would show the CR leaping in front of the YZ early on, and the YZ repeatedly gaining and losing against - but never catching - the CR. (Actually that would still be true even if the YZ made more power than the CR.) I know that is theoretical, but it illustrates the point that smooth power can be wicked fast without feeling that way.

[krad_nz]

Probably also the reason why people enjoy riding 2t, but actually ride faster on a 4t.

[kezzafish]

and the very reason that 450s are faster than 2 smokes

[krad_nz]

and the very reason that 450s are faster than 2 smokes

Except for whatever bike Chris Birch is riding....

[kezzafish]

yeah well that's a KTM so that's different. It's not fair to class those bikes in with "the rest"
Nah was referring to MX more. Enduro is more to do with skill so bike is up to the preference of the rider. Anyway. Knighter is faster and he rides a 450!

[krad_nz]

yeah well that's a KTM so that's different. It's not fair to class those bikes in with "the rest"
Nah was referring to MX more. Enduro is more to do with skill so bike is up to the preference of the rider. Anyway. Knighter is faster and he rides a 450!

Haha, touché. :beer:

[B0000M]

and the very reason that 450s are faster than 2 smokes

they are???

[chop]

where are 450's faster?

[secondfield]

Ha ... here you buggers go again ...:laugh:

[B0000M]

where are 450's faster?

they are faster to tire you out trying to start a hot one

they are faster to empty your wallet in repairs

they are faster to get your favourite tracks shut down due to noise

they are faster to overheat on a trail

lol

[takitimu]

where are 450's faster?

They aren't, they are built for people who don't like changing gears, but then so is the WR250 :banana:

Mmm ok faster for desert / supermoto racers & the elite professionals in MX/GNCC who can use the power ( say around 15 globally in each sport ).

[kezzafish]

changing gears slows you down, so does wild wheelspin, so do big fat wheelies. 4Ts are faster because the power is the similar except it's more useable. to say that a 4stroke tires you out and a 2t doesn't is rediculous. It's rider preference but to generalise..... 4strokes are faster. Put Philliparts on a 4t and a 2t around any MX track and guess which one he'll be faster on.
Mine is fast as fuck to start when it's hot. i press the button and it starts maybe 3 seconds at a guess. This is a stupid argument and has been done before. Also to say that only a few people in the world can "use the power" of a 4 stroke is dumb too..... almost every pro MX rider rides a 4T. It's the way of the world now. They all started making 4ts because they're faster ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Big 'ol mouth

[kezzafish]

did i mention how much faster 4strokes are when compared to 2 strokes? lol

[takitimu]

changing gears slows you down, so does wild wheelspin, so do big fat wheelies. 4Ts are faster because the power is the similar except it's more useable. to say that a 4stroke tires you out and a 2t doesn't is rediculous. It's rider preference but to generalise..... 4strokes are faster. Put Philliparts on a 4t and a 2t around any MX track and guess which one he'll be faster on.
Mine is fast as fuck to start when it's hot. i press the button and it starts maybe 3 seconds at a guess. This is a stupid argument and has been done before. Also to say that only a few people in the world can "use the power" of a 4 stroke is dumb too..... almost every pro MX rider rides a 4T. It's the way of the world now. They all started making 4ts because they're faster ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Big 'ol mouth

Ok, I'll bite, 4T != 450, have a look at AMA MX times, last time I went to one, only one Bubba was faster than the 250's, the last GNCC in the states a 250 came 4th from memory & the last WEC champion was a 300 KTM 2/.

Didn't they made 4t's because of California emission legislation & the fact that massive market effectively banned 2t's.

I just wish they made a KX350F with a Yamaha style SE option, that option gave you steel valves, Li-Ion battery & electric start in a bike weighing 95kg dry, ( the new TC250 Husky is 92kg ), surely that's not asking to much :).

[warewolf]

to say that a 4stroke tires you out and a 2t doesn't is rediculous.Not entirely, as 2Ts are heaps lighter. Not just in overall mass, but in the engine internals' rotational inertia.

The extra grunt of a big 4T is nice but it takes a lot more effort to throw it around vs a 2T.