Progression rather than leap question.

[LBD]

This will be an emotive subject and if possible I would like to limit posts to only those who have progressed from 250cc restricted to 750 cc plus sized machines in one leap within the last 5 years (the voices of experience)

And if you can, leave the emotions and testosterone out.

And the question is.... With the benifit of hindsight, was it a responsible / safe / correct step to make or do you think you would have benifitted from a progression, ie 250cc to mid sized then to larger?

Any examples to support you opinions?

Look forward to the posts....

[Whynot]

With the benifit of hindsight, was it a responsible / safe / correct step to make

Yes


do you think you would have benifitted from a progression, ie 250cc to mid sized then to larger?

Yes, but only due to the fact that i would have saved money on insurance ....

[SlashWylde]

With the benefit of hindsight, was it a responsible / safe / correct step to make

Yes.


Or do you think you would have benefited from a progression, ie 250cc to mid sized then to larger?

No.

I went from having ridden a 250cc Yamaha Virago to riding an 800cc Kawasaki Vulcan after 9 months riding experience. Was an appropriate step up for me as I had my full license and my skills had improved beyond the capabilities of the 250cc machine. It was, effectively, holding me back.

[Badjelly]

This will be an emotive subject and if possible I would like to limit posts to only those who have progressed from 250cc restricted to 750 cc plus sized machines in one leap within the last 5 years (the voices of experience)

And if you can, leave the emotions and testosterone out....

Geez, I fail on all counts. You certainly know how to make a bloke feel unwelcome, don't you? :chase:

[firefighter]

I did'nt, but I rode a mates GSX 750 before I got my bigger bike, and it was fine, I don't reakon there's a problem really as long as you teethe into it, I kinda wish i'd brought something bigger than my 650, so kinda a flipside to the whole "should've brought something midsize" hindsight for ya.

[jrandom]

Progression is definitely beneficial.

Problem is, it's also less immediate fun.

[Mully]

I went 250cc to 900cc in one hit.

Was fine for me, but then I ride like a pig-tailed little girl.

At the end of the day, the bike will only do what you tell it to do. If you don't trust yourself not to wring the shit out of it from day one, get something smaller.

[The Lone Rider]

I think it completely depends on the sort of bikes you have been on and are going to. It also depends on you, your abilities, and level headedness in approaching something different that could get you killed.

The 250cc I've ridden were XV250 and a VT250C, both "baby" harleys or of that style, with vtwin motors.

I then moved to a VF750C, which has a v4 engine.

The difference between the VT250C and VF750C is minimal in a lot of respects which is one reason I went to the VF. Of course, the VF is bigger with slightly different position on the bike and it has more power. But over all very similar bikes. It only took me me an afternoon on the VF to become comfortable and confident.

In saying that.. had I jumped from the VT250 to a M109R... that could have been a mistake. Bit of a jump there.

So likewise.. jumping to a Hayabusa may not be the way to go.


My other point was you as a person. There are plenty of hot shots that just buy the biggest and baddest bike they can and hammer it. Then they hammer it into a wall, off a cliff, into a sign, into a car, into friends they are riding with. So I think your approach to a new bike is important. Not to wind myself up as a god, but I was careful and eased into the bigger bike. I road it around and the only time I gave it a blast of power was on straights. It takes awhile to get used to a new bike and accept it's new limits in a responsible manner. I owned the bike for around 6 months before I even tried to see what it's top speed was.

So.. hope all this helps.

[Hitcher]

There is an inordinate amount of time spent whacking on (and off) about "progression".

The issue isn't about the bike, it's about the rider.

If you think that you'll squidly yourself to death or die at the hands of a jealous gay lover if you move directly from a 250 to a 1,000cc bike, then don't buy one.

The alternative to full noise gay sex isn't less of it, so the alternative to "not a 250 and not a litre bike" isn't automatically a sports 600.

The world is littered with competent mid-range bikes in a range of styles to suit all tastes, including bi-curious.

[LBD]

Geez, I fail on all counts. You certainly know how to make a bloke feel unwelcome, don't you? :chase:

I failed qualifying on all counts too, its part of the reason behind asking, some good wisdoms coming out so far...

[vifferman]

I progressed through the years and various capacities, starting on a 175 and now currently on an 800, but I think I could've easily jumped to a bigger bike earlier on. That's just the way it happened: it was more to do with finances than ability, as I was riding big, heavy bikes when I was only 15. It wasn't perhaps appropriate for me to own one then, but I think with two of the 500s I've owned, something bigger would've been better.

[motorbyclist]

of course you could go 600 and leave room to upgrade :rolleyes:


I would like to limit posts to only those who have progressed from 250cc restricted to 750 cc plus sized machines in one leap within the last 5 years (the voices of experience)

And if you can, leave the emotions and testosterone out.

good luck!

now i assume you talk sprotsbikes, not tourers. if it's a tourer then make the jump it's more weight than anything else. if it's a sprotsbike, i can only assume the gsxr750. good luck.

i also assume you're capable of being an absolute idiot on two wheels; i am painfully aware that i was and still can be.

for the road i went from 250 to 400 and did not regret that - in fact since trying other bikes from 600 to 1000cc i'm glad i did go for the 400 and have no plans of upgrading despite being offered a 600 twice now. in fact after my nc30 was stolen i got an nc35 - a 10% power loss and i still love it.

if you don't want to hear that you've already made up your mind.

alot of the uni club riders have made the same move to 400 and enjoy the move, as have those that go to 600cc

a few years ago i jumped from an '83 XR200 to a '98 YZ400F - the dirt bike equivalent of a learner 250 to sports 750 - and have not regretted it, BUT i will say that it was a steep learning curve and i did miss out that mid-size offroad experience

likewise i've noticed a lot of big bike riders aren't very good riders until they find a straight bit of road. there's a lot more skill in riding a small bike fast.
i find, and a few of my friends have found, that downgrading to the small bikes are more fun too - especailly when you take an fxr150 on a 250 ride and school teh lot of them through superior handling and clutch abuse:2thumbsup

which i assume is exactly what you didn't want to hear 'cause you've heard it all before'

of course the flip side of not moving up to a 600 is i have not had to learn proper throttle control - my road bikes have less power than traction so i just lay on the power, the 600 i nearly owned was the opposite. long story short i got fed up with all the sideways action and feared for my licence not so much for speed but power wheelies, so back with my tail between my legs to a 400 - it's a bit more forgiving and lighter to handle ;)

so yeah, it all comes back to being an idiot

[The Stranger]

of course you could go 600 and leave room to upgrade :rolleyes:



good luck!

now i assume you talk sprotsbikes, not tourers. if it's a tourer then make the jump it's more weight than anything else. if it's a sprotsbike, i can only assume the gsxr750. good luck.

i also assume you're capable of being an absolute idiot on two wheels; i am painfully aware that i was and still can be.

for the road i went from 250 to 400 and did not regret that - in fact since trying other bikes from 600 to 1000cc i'm glad i did go for the 400 and have no plans of upgrading despite being offered a 600 twice now. in fact after my nc30 was stolen i got an nc35 - a 10% power loss and i still love it.

if you don't want to hear that you've already made up your mind.

alot of the uni club riders have made the same move to 400 and enjoy the move, as have those that go to 600cc

a few years ago i jumped from an '83 XR200 to a '98 YZ400F - the dirt bike equivalent of a learner 250 to sports 750 - and have not regretted it, BUT i will say that it was a steep learning curve and i did miss out that mid-size offroad experience

likewise i've noticed a lot of big bike riders aren't very good riders until they find a straight bit of road. there's a lot more skill in riding a small bike fast.
i find, and a few of my friends have found, that downgrading to the small bikes are more fun too - especailly when you take an fxr150 on a 250 ride and school teh lot of them through superior handling and clutch abuse:2thumbsup

which i assume is exactly what you didn't want to hear 'cause you've heard it all before'

of course the flip side of not moving up to a 600 is i have not had to learn proper throttle control - my road bikes have less power than traction so i just lay on the power, the 600 i nearly owned was the opposite. long story short i got fed up with all the sideways action and feared for my licence not so much for speed but power wheelies, so back with my tail between my legs to a 400 - it's a bit more forgiving and lighter to handle ;)

so yeah, it all comes back to being an idiot

So to cut throught the excessive waffle.
600s handle better and that will likely escape you if you jump to a thou.

[motorbyclist]

pretty much

hey it was 2am, my thoughts weren't exactly organised

and i didn't want to outright say that the progressives generally become better riders than the leapers

but now i've said it - awaiting KB outrage

[discotex]

I went with a 600 but I test rode bigger bikes.

SV1000S was my first <250 experience. Followed by GSXR-750 and Z750. All totally different. All totally manageable if you ride them like a nana.

But all quite capable of getting you into utter shit. Same applies to the 600's though.

My advice. If you've done less than 25000km on a 250 don't make the massive leap to a thou but 750 is probably ok. If you're under 25 make that number higher.

[Hitcher]

the progressives generally become better riders than the leapers

Spare a penny for an ex-leaper?

[The Stranger]

and i didn't want to outright say that the progressives generally become better riders than the leapers

but now i've said it - awaiting KB outrage

Outrage?
Why on earth would there be outrage at that. I am certain you can substantiate it right? So fire away, lets have the proof.

[motorbyclist]

note this is just a generalisation - and by better rider i mean faster in the twisties with less fuckups. while katman thinks this means worse rider, i also notice the attitude of progressives is generally safer than leapers.

my theory is, attitude aside, that the riders who move to a 400 or stay on a 250 learn how to properly ride their machine to it's limit without exceeding their own limits. they learn what not to do in a relatively forgiving environment, lighter bikes are easier to save and they can learn how to save, less torque means less snap etc. I consider the move to a sports 600 a bit of a leap if the rider isn't full using their 250, due to weight and power.
the leapers simply miss out on this experience and have to learn on a more difficult machine.

firstly, it might just be the attitude of the leapers vs progressives, but watching the uni club members progress/leap you can tell the progressives are learning more about riding the machine to it's ability, whereas the leapers are learning the hard way about wheelies and are making up for cornering ineptitude with straight line speed.

secondly, the crash rate reflects this, although i might think the 250 crash rate might be able to predict a leaper; crashers tend to leap for some reason. again attitude.

one progressive i know spent a fair while on his vtr250 with only one near accident (in the ditch and back out again upright) then got a gsr600 or something like that - a naked inline 600 - and is yet to bin the bike

A leaper i know went from gsx250 to gsxr750 before even getting his full, partly because the 250 was so severely damaged from a bin. poor bike is badly scratched, AND is suffering from the constant snap-on power wheelies

back before i realised how much of an idiot i can be on an nc30, i went on a big coro loop dominated by 600s through to litre bikes, both twins and inline sports. Suffice to say i was only passed by two guys; the organiser on a fireblade and rossi on an r1 (came out of nowhere, one wheel into and out of corners while passing on a blind left hander).
at one of the stops a lot of the guys were musing as to how a 20 year old 400 had torn past them and apart from imploring me to hit the track, all were saying a lot of it would come down to me knowing how to properly thrash my bike to squeeze every last bit of performance out of it, while they were complacent and did have a lot more performance to draw from their bikes.
also, while one rider of a shiny new gsxr was pulling his bike out of the ocean, I didn't have a single 'oh shit i've overcooked this' moment the whole ride

on another trip me and my mate, both on NC30s, were waiting several minutes for a 600 rider to catch up - "corners are too bloody tight" he says, we say "your bike is too bloody big". i reckon if he rode that thing properly he should've been much faster.

now i know most of this is anecdotal and pretty subjective, but i still stand by it

it's the same sort of reasoning that says dirt riders make better road riders and road riders more aware drivers



and last but not least - the speed limit is 100kph. do we really need bikes designed to do 200kph sweepers? myself i prefer to find the twisty roads like the coromandel, all sub 100, and thus prefer to take a light handling bike where a misjudged twist of the throttle won't find you facing the way you came

[motorbyclist]

Outrage?
Why on earth would there be outrage at that. I am certain you can substantiate it right? So fire away, lets have the proof.

this is kb, we don't need proof:bleh:

[Manxman]

No.

Went from a 250 Bandit, to a YZF750.

Too much too soon, and way, way, way too fricken quick for a newly qualified rider.

Others may/will have different experiences. This is mine.

I now have an R6, which despite being fast, is more user friendly, rideable, etc at lower speeds and less 'if you even so much as look at my throttle, I'll be doing 100 before ya know it'.

[Gremlin]

Went from a zzr250 to a zx7r, after 7 months, and 9000km. As others have said, the biggest factor is the brain linked to the right wrist.

Several mates were certain I would stack it in spectacular fashion in short order, but I never did (of course, they were happy I didn't).

I think it was the right move for me, and the zx7r certainly taught me riding skills a new 600 never would have (they are just too easy to ride). Granted, I had already learnt what I could on the zzr, scraping it here there and everywhere, and leading zxr's through corners in the wet :ride:

Seen plenty do a similar leap to mine, and get it wrong... so it depends from case to case. Also seen people do bigger leaps, and be fine.

[White trash]

I went straight from an RGV250 to the very first fuel injected GSXR750 in the country in 1998.

Lasted six wild months and 18000kms before it ejected me in a hi-side at 220kays just south of Tokoroa, through a farmers fence, the wire cutting my brand new Jamie Whitam replica Bell pretty much in half.

Three weeks in hospital, operations and a shit load of physio. Off work for twelve months.

Worth it? Doubt it.

[Katman]

while katman thinks this means worse rider

I don't think you really know what I mean.

I don't recall ever saying faster equals worse rider.

[The Stranger]

this is kb, we don't need proof:bleh:

So to summarise once again. You're full of shit.

[motorbyclist]

I don't think you really know what I mean.

I don't recall ever saying faster equals worse rider.

sorry of course you didn't - what i meant to convey is i'm talking about 'better' in a riding as fast as possible without crashing sort of sense, as opposed to the safety or roadcraft sort of sense


So to summarise once again. You're full of shit.

or, i knew when i posted it that KBers with different experience, and/or those who feel offended by my implication, wouldn't even bother to address the apparent flaws in my reasoning with their own experiences and thoughts on the matter

so here's where you call me a dickhead, or explain why a leap is better than a progression and/or doesn't produce worse riders:niceone:

[rocketman1]

Yeah I went straight into a 1200 Bandit, yeah there were a few scary moments to start with, like I did not really get together with counter steering in the first couple of hundred kms, but soon got back into the groove.
As I am rider of mature age, and possibly slower reflexes than when I was young I was very cautious to do the right thing, and not try to be a boy racer.

Had I been a young guy and full of testostorene ( whatever) i guess to go straight back into a 1000/1200 would have been a silly thing to do.
I have been back into big bikes for about four years now and I often have to check myself & say slow down buddy, I want to be riding again next week.
I maybe should have spent some time on smaller bikes again <400cc but I figured that as long as I am careful and cautious I should be OK.
It is too some extent it is rewarding to ride a new bike that handles well and stops very well.
I was going to buy a Busa but came to my senses, I assessed that where can i do the speeds these bikes are capable of, anyway 250+km/hr on any bike is fast who cares about the last 50Km/hr. FAST is FAST, leave all that stuff on the race track.
My best advise is spend some time on a race track on any size bike you like,
1000/1200's, Busas and all you will find that unless you are are a very good rider you will be blown to weeds by heaps of guys on 400-600 / 650 rice rockets.
In other words don't try to prove yourself as fast on the road, no matter what you ride, there are a 1000+ track riders out there that will leave you in there smoke and dust, and put you in your place.
Ride your own pace and take your time, and you should be fine.
...that rhymes aye... I should be a poet :eek:

[LBD]

Hi Guys

all good and healthy so far, I appreciate the time and honest responses.

LBD

[hospitalfood]

dont piss about, get a big engine.
i progressed over several years, 250's 400 750's then a seven year break then 1200's.
i learnt bugger all about riding ( i have to admit my crashing skills improved ) until i started riding with others who have skill, reading bits and pieces, and discussing riding with good riders.

i think it is about attitude, some people will crash regardless, others wont.
if you get a big one learn how hard it is to stop before you try to learn how to throw it round corners, and they will corner.

[The Stranger]

so here's where you call me a dickhead, or explain why a leap is better than a progression and/or doesn't produce worse riders:niceone:

Well, if you insist.
DICKHEAD!

But no thanks, unlike yourself I see little value in making unsubstantiated claims.

[The Stranger]

note this is just a generalisation - and by better rider i mean faster in the twisties with less fuckups.


How did you account for the differences in the bikes when comparing the riders?
Does the fact that a rider is on a bike more suited to the purpose (twisties) make him a better rider. I have managed to give more than a few people on thous a bit of a fright on my XT660 - all 47HP of it. Does that make me a better rider?
Fuck off it simply means I am on a bike more suited to the particular environment.

[Bren]

i think it is about attitude, some people will crash regardless, others wont.
if you get a big one learn how hard it is to stop before you try to learn how to throw it round corners, and they will corner.


Best advice in the whole thread...Attitude is what keeps us alive...If you hit the road with the wrong attitude then it's so much easier to become a cropper, but with the attitude of a sensible person, who is aware of the dangers and aware how to minimise the risk then the chances of arriving at your destination greatly improve

[2fellas]

well i went from a hyosung gt250 to a TL1000s and man its ben an eye opener ...probably to big a gap even though i have had my liscence for 17 years i dio around 8000 ks on the 250 and had the TL for about 2 weeks now :eek:
least i can grow into the power and as long as your not a complete munter you just learn to progress

cheers

[Tone165]

Im too old to have any useful info, but I did proggressive increases from 50cc to Hayabusa over 35yrs.

I rode 500cc for most of that time.

I am a hoon, and even at 50yrs old do some pretty stupid things. I am quite sure if I had got my hands on a '08 GSXR600 when I was in my teens or 20's....I would not be here today!

Very good info in this thread.

I think you can kill yourself on any sized bike, but the bigger the bike the more choices of how!

A 600cc bike today makes more power and has more top speed than any of the bikes I had until I was around 30yrs old, but, they still need you to use the gears, and are light handling enough to allow a few small mistakes that we all make.

To many ppl go from a 250 to a grunter and lose the finesse that the 250 helped to build in favour of just twisting the "volume" knob in all situations.

Hope that input is helpful.