'Rider down' threads for strangers - yes or no? [Archive]

jrandom

15th January 2009, 16:12

As y'all know, we get a fair number of Police comms bulletins and/or general news articles, advising that someone-or-other just died on a motorcycle somewhere in NZ.

There are those who are all about getting those pasted up ASAP on the forum, and there are those who think that that's just ghoulish bullshit.

Note that I'm not talking about discussing incidents of our friends and family amongst KB. Of course we're going to discuss stuff that happens to people we know, and of course anyone close to someone who is injured or killed on a motorcycle has every right to lead that discussion here.

But rushing to put up a thread just because someone whom you've never heard of in your life binned and/or died on a bike?

What do y'all reckon?

Katman

15th January 2009, 16:18

But rushing to put up a thread just because someone whom you've never heard of in your life binned and/or died on a bike?

What do y'all reckon?

It's obscene.

(Can't vote).

Tank

15th January 2009, 16:20

Im not allowed to vote (infractions and all).

But Im all for stopping them.

If its a KB'er and we know them - then we can follow their wishes in their CPanel settings.

As it is - Its entirely possible we could have a thread started about 'a stranger' who actually is a KB'er (people just didnt know) but who had indicated they didnt want it discussed under any circumstances.

I just find it sad - and insincere when people RIP for someone they have no idea of who it is and happily forget about it 5 mins later. It cheapens threads when its someone the KB community know.

my 2c.

Tank

15th January 2009, 16:22

BTW - Mods - If this gets a result strongly one way or the other - are you willing to discuss making it a rule?

edit: Or not - depending on the result (noting my own bias in original post)

Quasievil

15th January 2009, 16:24

Voted No

sick of it, same goes with Binned it threads.

Hiflyer

15th January 2009, 16:26

Voted No

sick of it, same goes with Binned it threads.

unless theres something important to learn from?? or just no binned threads at all whatsoever

vifferman

15th January 2009, 16:26

There's something maudlin (and ultimately meaningless) about people posting wishy-washy sentiments in response, like, "My heart/thoughts go out to the family". WTF does that mean?
Does it help?
Maybe if the bereaved one's family reads it, and they can say, "Hey - that's kind; "gheyhondarider" is thinking of us". But otherwise, it's just meaningless drivel, probably posted just to say, "Look! I care! I'm not a heartless bitch/bastard!".
Or even worse - just posting some dots: ................
Special memorial dots? :confused:

I'm sure we ALL feel something - a little lurch of realisation "that could've been me", or a reminder of our mortality, that moves us to post, "RIP fellow rider", but then aren't we just posting for ourselves if we do that?

ManDownUnder

15th January 2009, 16:27

It's public information released by officialdom - this is merely a portal for that information.

I hit yes for that reason alone.

Madness

15th January 2009, 16:27

I don't have a problem with it.

I won't vote as I think the Poll is biased to the point where it's a joke.

gammaguy

15th January 2009, 16:31

if it makes anyone think even for a split second that they dont want it to be them next time,then it is not posted in vain.i voted yes.

Tank

15th January 2009, 16:31

unless theres something important to learn from?? or just no binned threads at all whatsoever

The beauty of KB is that there is plenty you can learn without having to have a death involved.

Seriously - I don't think I have ever learnt anything new from a RIP thread.

Using today's example - Bikers ran into a Tanker and someone died.

Well duh.

Was it road conditions, not looking, speed, was the rider txt'ing? Regardless of the cause - there is information about it on here - read the survival skills threads instead.

Ixion

15th January 2009, 16:32

Oh yes. Think of the huge reduction in the road toll. Because, of course, if you don't read about it, it never happened. Now, how to get the pesky press to stop publishing the reports. Then no biker will ever die. Hurrah. Welcome to Ostrich Central .

James Deuce

15th January 2009, 16:32

unless theres something important to learn from?? or just no binned threads at all whatsoever
There's almost never anything to learn from binned threads. About 1% of people who post a binned thread actually demonstrate that they knew what they'd done wrong and what they've learned from it.

The rest either glory in it or won't discuss the details due to the insurance fraud they're about to commit.

mister.koz

15th January 2009, 16:34

Voted yes, i got allot of friends around on bikes and knowing that someone in Waikato has had a nasty spill is important to me so I can text/call my friends and make sure they are alright, today i got a pile of coms from mates seeing if i was alright.

Hiflyer

15th January 2009, 16:38

The beauty of KB is that there is plenty you can learn without having to have a death involved.

Seriously - I don't think I have ever learnt anything new from a RIP thread.

Using today's example - Bikers ran into a Tanker and someone died.

Well duh.

Was it road conditions, not looking, speed, was the rider txt'ing? Regardless of the cause - there is information about it on here - read the survival skills threads instead.

k well maybe these threads should be posted in the survival skills forum (the binning not the death ones) i think that a thread like Darklords thread was very helpful and eye opening, and it only lasted like 2 pages so maybe

threads that are helpful = stay

threads that arent = removed by mods??

Just a thought really

mattian

15th January 2009, 16:41

Hiflyer

15th January 2009, 16:43

oh and even though the options are worded in an interesting way i just took it as yes and no. and voted yes as i may not find out any other way

Oakie

15th January 2009, 16:47

If the options in the poll were just 'Yes" or "No" I would have voted. Just an example of how to get the result you want by wording the poll question appropriately. Everyone does it though so I'm not picking a fight or anything.

I don't have a problem with people posting up a 'rider down' thread as long as it's done respectfully and they obey the rules. And yeah, I agree sentiments can be over-done a bit but if people are genuine about what they say and are not just dribbling insincere sentiment then who are we to say they shouldn't express their condolences.

James Deuce

15th January 2009, 16:48

I think its important to know how and why accidents happen to riders. If god forbid something should ever happen to me, I would have no problem with people discussing it in an internet forum for christs sake. COndololences and messages of support don't loose the sincerity of their meaning just because its said over the internet.

But people don't. The moment someone sucks a kumara there is a concerted effort from their "mates" to bury any and all discussion. Why? Because you;re not allowed to say anything bad about the dead.

The messages of "support" and "condolences" for people you don't know, were never likely to know, and probably would have had little in common with ARE meaningless. No one ever posts condolence messages up for dead "boy racers", "Chechen freedom fighters", or murdered children.

If you knew someone, eulogise them meaningfully so we get a clue about what they were like as people. If you didn't, don't say anything.

trump-lady

15th January 2009, 16:50

Voted yes because, have close relatives riding all over New Zealand and would like a heads up, also it is a reminder to myself what can happen. If we all pretend it doesnt, we are as Ixon says putting our heads in the sand. For me its a reality check and brings me back down to earth which potentially means next time I ride it might have saved my life. You cant have a bike site that only post good things as biking is not always sunshine and fun times.

Im newish so perhaps that will fade but I dont understand if you dont like it dont read it.

I dont respond and do the "rip" thing as I find that bizare, it goes without saying.

I say keep it and if you dont like it retittle it as news flash, and then if you dont want to see the details, dont look.

I prefer to keep it real

James Deuce

15th January 2009, 16:54

Post threads about KBers.

I don't care if a baby raping, P producing 1 percenter crashes into a tanker. That's not true. I hope the tanker driver isn't injured and his livelihood won't be affected. (Note the assumptions)

Hiflyer

15th January 2009, 16:56

But people don't. The moment someone sucks a kumara there is a concerted effort from their "mates" to bury any and all discussion. Why? Because you;re not allowed to say anything bad about the dead.

The messages of "support" and "condolences" for people you don't know, were never likely to know, and probably would have had little in common with ARE meaningless. No one ever posts condolence messages up for dead "boy racers", "Chechen freedom fighters", or murdered children.

If you knew someone, eulogise them meaningfully so we get a clue about what they were like as people. If you didn't, don't say anything.

well this isnt "kiwi-chechen freedom fighters.co.nz" or "kiwideadchildren.co.nz" is it? :girlfight:

James Deuce

15th January 2009, 17:00

well this isnt "kiwi-chechen freedom fighters.co.nz" or "kiwideadchildren.co.nz" is it? :girlfight:
My point is, why do you care that "Barry" from Te Awamutu died on a bike? If you didn't know him, even through the distorting lens of an Internet forum, it is of no consequence to you. People who drive cars don't come over all weird when someone else who drives a car dies. They don't even notice. They sure as hell don't inundate the editor of a newspaper, the work intranet, or the squash club newsletter with messages of condolence for someone who never touched their life in any way.

Hiflyer

15th January 2009, 17:04

well im not saying im going to be all cut up about it and KB would be a better place without the whole RIP thing but i wanna be informed

Ixion

15th January 2009, 17:18

BTW - Mods - If this gets a result strongly one way or the other - are you willing to discuss making it a rule?

edit: Or not - depending on the result (noting my own bias in original post)

Well for that I'd suggest the poll presentation would have to be less blatantly biased

jrandom

15th January 2009, 17:27

Well for that I'd suggest the poll presentation would have to be less blatantly biased

I spend all day playing at being an engineer, so I come home and play at being a politician.

:niceone:

slofox

15th January 2009, 17:59

Got mixed feelings about this one. When I hear that a death has occured, it makes me think about what I do out there myself, so that bit indicates "yes".
On the other hand, I agree with the RIP posts so far - they have always struck me as a little false - like it is the "proper" thing to do or something. So that bit is a "no".
And yes, the wording of the poll is a little transparent...

Mrs Busa Pete

15th January 2009, 18:05

Shit guys if you don't want to know dont go into the bl**dy threads easy.

JamesHD

15th January 2009, 18:05

Was it road conditions, not looking, speed, was the rider txt'ing? .

:Offtopic: :stupid: if anyones stupid enough to text while riding, they are probably going to bin their bike sometime sooner or later anyway

paturoa

15th January 2009, 18:20

Please no censorship about what sort of threads or posts. If I don't like the title of a thread then I don't open it.

SPman

15th January 2009, 18:27

Katman

15th January 2009, 18:33

What I despise most about the 'Race to be the First to Post the Biker Down Thread' is that before there is any real information people are falling over themselves to be the first to set in motion incalculable needless worry.

But who gives a fuck about that when you can have the glory of being the one to 'break the news'?

:tugger:

slofox

15th January 2009, 18:43

Theres a good little ditty on just that...

That is an ACE! song!!!

98tls

15th January 2009, 18:45

Voted No

sick of it, same goes with Binned it threads. What he said.:2thumbsup

Hiflyer

15th January 2009, 18:52

Please no censorship about what sort of threads or posts. If I don't like the title of a thread then I don't open it.

aahhhh someone with sense :laugh:

but seriously, thats good!

James Deuce

15th January 2009, 18:52

:Offtopic: :stupid: if anyones stupid enough to text while riding, they are probably going to bin their bike sometime sooner or later anyway
Saw two today. One was stopped in the middle of an intersection. But it takes all kinds and who am I to impose my views on anyone else? That would be infringing on their human rights to do as they please.

jrandom

15th January 2009, 18:57

Theres a good little ditty on just that...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbf3Pbb60n4

Lordy lordy, that was beautiful.

There's hope for me yet!

James Deuce

15th January 2009, 19:00

Lordy lordy, that was beautiful.

There's hope for me yet!

There's always been hope. You just need to stop exceeding expectation by quite such a margin.

SPman

15th January 2009, 19:27

That is an ACE! song!!!

Yes - aussie TV does throw up some pearlers, sometimes.....

Genestho

15th January 2009, 19:52

I wont vote as I see it a personal option.

Before I joined here I read posts on here about Leons fatal ride.

I was warned by friends some of it was political, some of it was condolences and some was offering to take flowers to the funeral.

Leon never even knew KB existed, nor did our friends, at this time of night in the summer, they were always out and about riding.

I like to be able to give another person or loved one who lost someone empathy, because I understand their journey, you have to realise that these families or friends will probably read these posts...its only because friends told me there were posts here regarding the three fatalities that I joined.

Some of you may find this meaningless, some of us dont

Katman

15th January 2009, 20:16

Genestho

15th January 2009, 20:23

For those who have voted yes for these threads, do you go online to acknowledge every car driver's death, every push bike rider's death, every skateboarder's death? No? Why not?

Is it because they are not motorcyclists?

What if a motorcyclist is a rapist, a wife beater, a kiddie fiddler, a bike thief? Still want to wish that they rest in peace?

It's fucking pathetic.

To give somebody empathy is pathetic? What I find pathetic is the way you jump on every accident before the body is even cold. The Motorcyclist who could be a ____insert name will still have family that has suffered a loss. I see nothing at all wrong with people being able to extend condolences, KNOWING that friends and family could read these posts.
And I have met many widows who I have extended empathy to whose partners have died/or been killed, that are NOT Motorcyclists, what are you like dude..far out

Katman

15th January 2009, 20:26

To give somebody empathy is pathetic? What I find pathetic is the way you jump on every accident before the body is even cold. The Motorcyclist who could be a ____insert name will still have family that has suffered a loss.
And I have met many widows who I have extended empathy to whose partners have died/or been killed, that are NOT Motorcyclists, what are you like dude..far out

You want me to blindly extend empathy to an habitual bike thief? An habitual drunk rider? An habitual reckless fucking clown?

To do so would be fucking pathetic.

Fuck that.

scumdog

15th January 2009, 20:31

You want me to extend empathy to a habitual bike thief?

Fuck that.

Hey, we can empathise with fuck-wits on KB...so anythings possible.<_<

SARGE

15th January 2009, 20:34

ban them all says i..

if its someone i know.. im sure my phone will ring..

Genestho

15th January 2009, 20:36

You want me to extend empathy to an habitual bike thief? An habitual drunk rider? An habitual reckless fucking clown?

Fuck that.

You dont have to, but its fair that if others feel the need, then they can..IMHO!

True that SD

SARGE

15th January 2009, 20:37

Voted No

sick of it, same goes with Binned it threads.

im in favor of a binned-it thread.. as long as its entertaining.. ( Skidmark and the Moron Few running out of talent is ALWAYS entertaining..)

Donor

15th January 2009, 21:16

Yet you open the thread, the thread title states exactly what it is.

Yet in you come?

It's part of motorcycling, people die, why not give a fallen rider a mention?

ill be sure not to think of you then **eyeroll**

Yet all you have said you want this type of thread banned, have opened this one to have a nosey.....
You don't have to look, you know, it is purely voluntary...
Pot = kettle= black

It's called right of reply.

'nuff said.

James Deuce

15th January 2009, 21:24

if its someone i know.. im sure my phone will ring..

Yes, indeedly.

Dakara

15th January 2009, 21:32

Sitting on the fence a bit here.... the posts are depressing, the following 10 pages of "RIP, Thoughts to family..." is just copy past garbage....

But it reminds us of our mortality and slows us down... well does for me anyway.

The Lone Rider

15th January 2009, 23:03

There are so many KB people crashing their bikes do we need posts about non kb people to?

skidMark

16th January 2009, 00:20

Wouldn't you think that if it was a KB Member who was killed, that his family if they wanted to, would put something on KB letting those who knew that rider what has happened without someone who doesnt know the rider involved starting up a thread about it?. Its only fair that the family of the deceased find out 1st before those of us who dont even know the rider killed.

Family did find out first, it was a day after the accident that i posted, and police had officially released the name of the deaceased....

Police only ever do this after next of kin have been formally notified.

LBD

16th January 2009, 01:21

On the contrary i think having them on the site reminds us we need to take care and maybe that depressing should make some realise they arn't as bulletproof as they think they are.

guarantee kb deaths would go up without these threads.... but you wouldn't hear about them....

but you would because any kb death would still be posted

I think it's fair to post details of fatalities, I like to know who's been killed so I can work out if it's someone I know.

I think it's probably ok to post something if as I said earlier there is a personal involvement, but even then my personal opinion is that this is not the sort of thing for internet forums - consider the feelings of the persons family & friends, it's bad enough when these stories are all over the news but to commit them to internet gossip is tasteless in my book.

How about a section for deaths/ biker accidents on police releases etc.

Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me, just from scanning the threads that have mentioned this it would appear that the majority aren't fans of rider down posts but there is a large enough body of opposing opinion not to be ignored.
Having the requirement to join the sub forum to read posts would be an excellent solution imho

I agree that something needs to be posted to notify the members, I also agree it is probably not appropriate to have an open forum every time an accident/ fatality happens.

A sub forum is a good idea, but instead of a need to subscribe to the forum, the forum may only contributed to by site administrators/moderators. Little like notices in the paper that cannot be responded to. All pertinant police notices that are related to motor cycles and MC accidents, not just fatalities are posted there. And to help learn from accidents, after an initial posting of an accident or fatality, a police findings notice is later added. That should add to our collective riding wisdom.

I think that in the case of a fatality involving a KB member, the site administrator/moderators could post a collective sympathy note on the site on behalf of the membership.

Its true that if I was involved in an accident (and survived) and was at fault I would want to keep the fact somewhat quiet, and not posted on the forum, however police findings are public and if one other person learnt from my mistake, then there is value....

And if a member wants to bury their head in the sand and not take advantage of potential lessons to learn, then they do not need to open the forum and view the contents.

Just my thoughts.....

Forest

16th January 2009, 01:52

I support these threads simply because road death is an ongoing part of the riding community.

Censoring these threads just hides the fact that our choice of activity is intrinsically dangerous.

Tank

16th January 2009, 07:58

:Offtopic: :stupid: if anyones stupid enough to text while riding, they are probably going to bin their bike sometime sooner or later anyway

James,

That was humour - most of us know (not all mind you) that its a bad idea.

Welcome to KB.

pritch

16th January 2009, 12:44

I think it's fair enough if somebody from KB is involved in an accident that details be given of what hospital they are in, when visitors are allowed, etc etc.

Similarly if the crash was fatal, details of the funeral, messages of condolence, etc wouldn't be inappropriate.

Just to rush to post a story of a fatal crash with no real detail is pointless.
Almost as pointless as suddenly starting to text everybody you know to ask if they are dead. :weird:

Bin stories, or near-bin stories, may illustrate a point of riding technique and are thus potentially useful. I would say that though, I recently posted one.:whistle:

imdying

16th January 2009, 14:20

I voted no, but given the number of yes votes, an opt into subforum seems like a good compromise.

To be honest, I'd much rather see Happy Birthday threads banned before these.

Drew

16th January 2009, 14:30

Nope, are we not all aware that people die in bike crashes? If you weren't, then I'm sorry to inform you it happens.

People also die falling in the shower, perhaps we should start a thread every time that happens, since most of us here shower too. (Perhaps not skidMark, I hear that little cock smoker stinks something fierce.)

Okey Dokey

16th January 2009, 14:38

Please no censorship about what sort of threads or posts. If I don't like the title of a thread then I don't open it.

Well, this is a sensible approach, and I agree.

HenryDorsetCase

16th January 2009, 14:38

Bloody boats are more dangerous than motorbikes, yet on www.kiwiboatbotherers.co.nz do they have "oh, no another drowning OMG WTF" threads?

I dont like "biker down" threads, and dont really read or post in them. Its just my Anglo Saxon nature and keeping a stiff upper lip I guess.

HenryDorsetCase

16th January 2009, 14:39

James,

That was humour - most of us know (not all mind you) that its a bad idea.

Welcome to KB.

yeah I find the buttons on my celly hard to operate with gloves on.

cs363

16th January 2009, 20:46

I agree that something needs to be posted to notify the members, I also agree it is probably not appropriate to have an open forum every time an accident/ fatality happens.

A sub forum is a good idea, but instead of a need to subscribe to the forum, the forum may only contributed to by site administrators/moderators. Little like notices in the paper that cannot be responded to. All pertinant police notices that are related to motor cycles and MC accidents, not just fatalities are posted there. And to help learn from accidents, after an initial posting of an accident or fatality, a police findings notice is later added. That should add to our collective riding wisdom.

I think that in the case of a fatality involving a KB member, the site administrator/moderators could post a collective sympathy note on the site on behalf of the membership.

Its true that if I was involved in an accident (and survived) and was at fault I would want to keep the fact somewhat quiet, and not posted on the forum, however police findings are public and if one other person learnt from my mistake, then there is value....

And if a member wants to bury their head in the sand and not take advantage of potential lessons to learn, then they do not need to open the forum and view the contents.

Just my thoughts.....

All good points, no disagreement from this quarter :)

Hitcher

16th January 2009, 20:57

BTW - Mods - If this gets a result strongly one way or the other - are you willing to discuss making it a rule?

"Biker down" threads are probably the most controversial topic that gets raised on Kiwi Biker's forums. But I can't see how any discussion could be better covered than the current rules attempt to do.

The purpose of the rules as they currently stand, is to prevent gossip, speculation, or public disclosure of the names of affected parties/deceased persons until their next of kin etc has been notified by the Police. This is as close as Kiwi Biker gets to "censorship". These rules have been developed iteratively over some years.

I suspect that Kiwi Biker's Big Five* thread topics will remain controversial and perennial for some time to come.

*1. Biker Down
2. ATGATT
3. Waving
4. Countersteering
5. The Police (not the band)

HenryDorsetCase

16th January 2009, 23:13

"Biker down" threads are probably the most controversial topic that gets raised on Kiwi Biker's forums. But I can't see how any discussion could be better covered than the current rules attempt to do.

The purpose of the rules as they currently stand, is to prevent gossip, speculation, or public disclosure of the names of affected parties/deceased persons until their next of kin etc has been notified by the Police. This is as close as Kiwi Biker gets to "censorship". These rules have been developed iteratively over some years.

I suspect that Kiwi Biker's Big Five* thread topics will remain controversial and perennial for some time to come.

*1. Biker Down
2. ATGATT
3. Waving
4. Countersteering
5. The Police (not the band)

yup, all except No 5: Everybody KNOWS that the Police (the "band") suck diddly uck

Drunken Monkey

17th January 2009, 17:55

For those who have voted yes for these threads, do you go online to acknowledge every car driver's death, every push bike rider's death, every skateboarder's death? No? Why not?

Is it because they are not motorcyclists?

What if a motorcyclist is a rapist, a wife beater, a kiddie fiddler, a bike thief? Still want to wish that they rest in peace?

It's fucking pathetic.

Agreed.

Reminds me of this thread: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=34060

Apparently I'm insensitive and caused outrage for calling a drunk motorcyclist who crashed into a parked car while riding 100+ in a 50 zone a "turkey", but it's ok for other KB'ers to tell me to "go fuck (my)self"...

JamesHD

27th January 2009, 21:23

James,

That was humour - most of us know (not all mind you) that its a bad idea.

Welcome to KB.

haha, :yes:,all good mate. and cheers for the welcome :niceone:. I find this KB website great; loads of information (and always funny to follow the arguements between fellow kber's)

cheers again.
:ride:

JamesHD

27th January 2009, 21:26

yeah I find the buttons on my celly hard to operate with gloves on.

especially with the size of some of the phones these days

Maha

27th January 2009, 22:05

The thoughts about this very topic from two guys that are no longer with us.

On a side note, my way of thinking is that the people that are important (not many, if any) to me will find out by me calling them or friends getting in touch, and for all the others that might give a toss about a wanker like me they'll find out in due time. Unless given premisson by the muppet who crashed, i dont think it's right to post it, like i said the people who need to know will find out.

My vote would be to ask first or leave it to the family. If you are close to the person who had an incident you will be informed, usually though a network of close friends. If you need to read it off the internet are you really that close to the person? Do you need to know right then and there?

Skyryder

27th January 2009, 22:16

If I'm not interested in the thread I don't open it. Works for me why can it not work others who voted no.

Skyryder

cs363

28th January 2009, 20:50

If I'm not interested in the thread I don't open it. Works for me why can it not work others who voted no.

Skyryder

The only problem with that is that some posters use rather vague thread titles, so you can't always tell what the thread is actually about until you open it (and it's not just the rider down threads either, but I digress :))

So I guess a possible solution if people must continue with unknown rider down threads would be something like the **WW** warning, say **URD** or whatever to warn of the content?

Personally, I don't have an issue with someone posting about friends or family if they feel the need or perhaps an incident they saw or were involved in, but the pointless paparazzi like reporting of accidents/rider down etc from police or news reports is creepy IMO.

98tls

28th January 2009, 20:58

The only problem with that is that some posters use rather vague thread titles, so you can't always tell what the thread is actually about until you open it (and it's not just the rider down threads either, but I digress :))

So I guess a possible solution if people must continue with unknown rider down threads would be something like the **WW** warning, say **URD** or whatever to warn of the content?

Personally, I don't have an issue with someone posting about friends or family if they feel the need or perhaps an incident they saw or were involved in, but the pointless paparazzi like reporting of accidents/rider down etc from police or news reports is creepy IMO. Yep totally agree.A big off which results in injury/death is without doubt the worst thing and to see ghouls feeding of it by announcing it on the interweb is disgusting.