What is the best way to be noticed by cagers?

[Winston001]

Can't help but notice the continuing theme about cars causing bike accidents. Certainly it happens. Naturally we don't like coming off second to a car, being penalised by ACC, and ignored by some of the public.

So what is the answer? My understanding is that high visibility vests aren't effective, headlights only slightly better, so there must be other options.

I can't quite grasp the normal motorists problem because I always notice bikes, but thinking about it, don't always see cyclists even in plain view. Hmmm my bad.

The only thing I can think of is one or two low-wattage pulsing lights, positioned at the end of handlebars or higher.

Somehow we need a motorcycle and rider to impinge on the car driver's conciousness. Telling each other that cagers should drive more carefully is a waste of breath. If wishes were horses we'd all be kings.......

[PirateJafa]

Burn Ram them.

[samgab]

Ride nekk'd...

[jrandom]

Falling off the bike seems to get their attention.

[The Stranger]

A white BMW and white helmet works - or a black harley, black leathers and a patch. Either one is just as effective.

Ever ridden with Ixion, he has the white option, cars fair fucken leap out of his way.

[SixPackBack]

Assume you are invisible and every one wants to kill you-adjust your riding to suit this mind set...........do not get sucked in by the little old lady pulling out from kahikatea flats road who looks you straight in the eye then pulls out.
If all else fails the following image may help.

[Mystic13]

At night run a led kit. They all see you.

The reason most don't see you is that they can't comprehend your blistering speed and acceleration. They're only used to car level performance.

Cage's will often comment that they didn't see us or we came out of nowhere. And we did for them. They don't see bikes often enough to be able to judge the speeds we travel at. Heck i've even been surprised by bikes zooming past that I didn't even see in my mirrors.

Flashing lights won't fix that but looking like a cop seems ton help dramatically as someone mentioned above. I've seen it with another rider where cars slow, and move aside. I prefer graphic helmets and coloured bikes so that'll never happen for me.

[Blackbird]

I have 100W H7 Xenon bulbs on main and dip. The blue-white light REALLY makes car drivers take notice in daylight. From the time I first fitted them 4 years ago, it was obvious that drivers saw me much earlier. Coming up behind vehicles, they are pretty keen to move to the left and let me past because of the light in their mirrors. IMHO, it's the best safety move I've made.

[bikerboy011]

Perhaps a louder exhaust than stock.

[SARGE]

Can't help but notice the continuing theme about cars causing bike accidents. ....

i picked up a headlight modulator (http://www.kriss.com/#) from the States.. that, combined with the exhaust note on the FJ gets me noticed quite well..not running one on the ace yet..


surprised the modulators are illegal here in NZ.. damn shame ..works well


rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 though..

[Bren]

i picked up a headlight modulator (http://www.kriss.com/#) from the States.. that, combined with the exhaust note on the FJ gets me noticed quite well..not running one on the ace yet..


surprised the modulators are illegal here in NZ.. damn shame ..works well


rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 though..

scuse me for being naive (read dumb cunt), but what do these modulators do?

[NUTBAR]

At night run a led kit. They all see you.

The reason most don't see you is that they can't comprehend your blistering speed and acceleration. They're only used to car level performance.

Cage's will often comment that they didn't see us or we came out of nowhere. And we did for them. They don't see bikes often enough to be able to judge the speeds we travel at. Heck i've even been surprised by bikes zooming past that I didn't even see in my mirrors.

one problem with that theory, when im traveling at 50km in a 50km area eg town area they still pull out in front of me? so whats there excuse then? im rideing a bike almost as wide as a car & two bright headlights, and yet still have people pull out?

[SARGE]

scuse me for being naive (read dumb cunt), but what do these modulators do?

they "flash" the lights 240 times a minuter ( dont actually cut power to them .. just modulate between hi and low beam)

ive run mine in traffic for 3 years and havnt replaced a bulb yet.. i am running a homemade relay to boot output too.. have had people refuse to ride in front of me without sunblock on their neck..


the reason( claimed) that they are not legal here is because someone *might* think you are an emergency vehicle


thats good though . right?



funny that they are DOT approved in North America.. i assume that the emergency vehicles use the same flash rate there




( any Ambos tell me how many times per minute yours flash?)

[Bren]

one problem with that theory, when im traveling at 50km in a 50km area eg town area they still pull out in front of me? so whats there excuse then? im rideing a bike almost as wide as a car & two bright headlights, and yet still have people pull out?


that just comes down to the fact that they are bigger than you, and feel since they are bigger they have the right of way....Happens in cars too when you get those frikkin Remuera Taxis....Solution, Get your self a TANK!

[oldrider]

Can't help but notice the continuing theme about cars causing bike accidents. Certainly it happens. Naturally we don't like coming off second to a car, being penalised by ACC, and ignored by some of the public.

So what is the answer? My understanding is that high visibility vests aren't effective, headlights only slightly better, so there must be other options.

I can't quite grasp the normal motorists problem because I always notice bikes, but thinking about it, don't always see cyclists even in plain view. Hmmm my bad.

The only thing I can think of is one or two low-wattage pulsing lights, positioned at the end of handlebars or higher.

Somehow we need a motorcycle and rider to impinge on the car driver's conciousness. Telling each other that cagers should drive more carefully is a waste of breath. If wishes were horses we'd all be kings.......

What is more important is that "we" see "them" and avoid "them"! (individual responsibility)

If we ride our own ride in a defensive manner, treat all other road users with respect, then we may "earn" some respect in return.

Motorcycles are a solitary device that appeals to the individualist within us, so why do so many clog up the roads by riding in large groups? :confused:

95% of my riding is on my own or with my pillion, any more than one or two other riders takes me right out of my comfort zone.

I ride a bike to be on my own, doing my own thing, going my own way! :ride:

I do like to meet up and socialise with other other riders though, it's theraputic medicine for me.

Personally I find most of the other traffic, on the open road anyway, treat motorcyclists with respect and move over to let you through.

Often you feel obliged to pass, just because they try to hard to let you through!

Another one of those Christian quotes springs to mind: "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you"

My grandma would be proud, I did listen afterall. :whistle: John.

[MsKABC]

Perhaps a louder exhaust than stock.

+1 One of the reasons we modified the pipe on my little 400 was for this reason.

Movement - move back and forth across your lane a little as you approach intersections.

Also (this won't help you to be seen, but it will make you safer), if you are following a car through an intersection, close up the gap a little (without obscuring yourself with the car you're following) so that waiting cars are not tempted to pull out in front of you.

[McJim]

The only thing that will make drivers notice bikes more is driver education. Driver tuition tends to reinforce many of the basic road rules and self preservation is left to pick up the pieces regarding noticing other vehicles. Unfortunately your average car driver doesn't feel threatened by a regular sportsbike but does feel threatened by a bikey cop or a perceived bikey gang member - hence the reference to White Helmet/White BMW or Black Leathers/ Black Cruiser.

Winston, just affix a blank law suit for damages to the front of your bike and they'll afford you the respect you crave.:rofl:

[Madness]

Pass the fuckers.

[Tank]

So what is the answer? My understanding is that high visibility vests aren't effective, headlights only slightly better, so there must be other options.


I dont see how you can say hi-vis vest are inefective. Last night coming back from Cambridge in the wifes cage - I paid particular notice - and yes hi-vis vest are more noticeable.


A white BMW and white helmet works - or a black harley, black leathers and a patch. Either one is just as effective.

Ever ridden with Ixion, he has the white option, cars fair fucken leap out of his way.

Indeed - White or Yellow stand out far more - its just that bikers want to look tough and wear black - the worst possible colour.


Perhaps a louder exhaust than stock.

Bollocks - most accidents come from in front and the loud pipes do nothing to save that. Its a myth spread by people who want to justify their loud pipes. Seriously - how many people who have the loud pipes for safety wear bright colours and hi-vis vest. Nope - to them its all about the sound.


At night run a led kit. They all see you.

The reason most don't see you is that they can't comprehend your blistering speed and acceleration. They're only used to car level performance.



Indeed in town should people be riding with blistering speed and acceleration when there are cars around - if they are factors then the biker is contributing to the situation by not riding for the conditions at that time.

[vifferman]

surprised the modulators are illegal here in NZ.. damn shame ..works well
Apparently, LTNZ have considered making them compulsory, which is strange, given they have decreed them illegal. What I was told is that taillight flashers and headlight modulators induce target fixation in brain-dead drivers.

The thing you can do to make drivers notice you is be aggressively defensive. Own the road. Act like the drivers don't know you're there (many of them don't!), and force them to wake up and to notice you. Move around in your lane, use your lights and horns, make sure that if they follow too close, or look like they're not going to give way, that you're NOT OK with that. Wage a campaign of actively defending yourself.

[Big Dave]

My mind set is this.

I have survived as long as I have by assuming that none can see me and none ever will.

I am entirely invisible and it's up to me to see them.

The assumption that everyone behind the wheel - or their car - has a IQ of 20 also helps.

I act courteously when appropriate and get the ferk outta there when it's not.

[Shadows]

Pass the fuckers.

What he said. Get away from the traffic and out on our own.

Being a hooligan on a Harley with loud pipes also seems to work for me. I don't mean riding at a million miles per hour but being a little looser in riding style than your average communter does make a difference. One of the best things you can do is moving around within your lane. The lateral movement attracts the eye better than a thin profile coming straight for the observer. Don't spend all of your time in the right wheel track.

A bit of assertiveness showing in one's riding is also a benefit when the cager concerned has seen you but is thinking about pulling out on you or cutting you off anyway because he's an arrogant cunt and/or of an "ethnic minority".

[trumpy]

Perhaps a louder exhaust than stock.

Sorry mate but think this is one of the greatest myths perpetrated on this site. It might seem logical (especially to the bike rider) that having louder pipes will make him more noticeable in traffic but in my experience it doesn't stack up. There are far too many variables that effect the way the noise is heard by others.
I drive around 75 - 80,000kms (not including motorcycle mileage) a year for business reasons and I get to see, hear and get passed by a lot of bikes. To keep myself sane doing that sort of mileage I tend to look at my driving not as a means to an end but a means in it's own right. The consequence being that I tend to be paying much more attention to what's going on around me than the average driver.
Most drivers will drive with their windows closed summer and winter thanks to climate control however I prefer the fresh air and I am unable to fit what I need into a sports car (tried that, didn't work) so I often drive with at least two windows open and sometimes all four. Much nicer than air con.
I have very good hearing (recently tested) and I have often seen but almost NEVER heard loud bikes come up behind me, especially if they are moving "quickly". There have been a number which have almost made my ears bleed but only as they passed my open window. Remember I have always seen them coming (I am anal about scanning my rear view mirrors often) so I am expecting to hear them.
I frequently drive behind cars whose rear view mirrors are so badly adjusted they the driver could not possibly see you coming from behind and they usually have their windows closed and stereo going as well!
I put an after market pipe on my bike as well but purely because I like the sound it makes and the fact that it doesn't look like a whale's penis hanging out the back of my bike. Please, please don't rely on the sound of your exhaust as any kind of safety device.

[Headbanger]

I hear louder bikes earlier, and have on many occasions used the noise of my pipes to get attention. They swing there head around and look when they hear you.

Anyone at this stage wanting to claim I'm lying can suck on a chubby.

Not that I have loud pipes for that reason, But its too my advantage so its all good.

Being followed through national park I had no trouble hearing a (quiet) BMW behind me hit the throttle for his passing manoeuvre.

I was in a modern vehicle (2007) with the windows closed.....


The stereo fucks everything though.

[martybabe]

I doubt that this is helpful to the original question but........

.Having spent many years of my life in the middle of the road trying to do my job as a Fireman and later an AA patrol, dealing with accidents and breakdowns amongst a sea of agitated an distracted motorists, I shall now reveal the one and only thing UK cage drivers react to.

Is it Casualties strewn across the road being attended to by ambos and Fire Bobbies, police vehicles, torches, sirens, blood, petrol, fire, explosions ...Nah. With all the above going there is always some knob that won't see it till it's too late.

The miracle magical answer my friends is an orange road cone with a reflective jacket:gob: You think I jest, I'm telling ya even the crappiest driver would rather hit a tree than one of those babies, they avoid them like land mines. I have personally been laying out a short run of these things and several drivers have done crazy swerves to avoid them and driven straight at me instead :blink:

Trust me, you'd have to see it to believe it, UK drivers at least, will do anything to avoid hitting a reflective cone, maybe it's a hang over from driving school/ who knows. The exception being truckers of course, they kill as many of the c#nting things as they can.

So the rather silly answer would be, dress up as a bloody reflective road cone! But do watch out for trucks.

[Fatjim]

Trumpy, you seem to think that because not all drivers will hear loud pipes then they don't help. However, your experience is different than mine. The fact is, alot of drivers do hear loud pipes, and in my experience I have fewer issues with drivers not being aware of me when my pipes are louder.

All things that make drivers aware of you add up to a sum greater than the induvidual parts.

[Fatjim]

What he said. Get away from the traffic and out on our own.

Being a hooligan on a Harley with loud pipes also seems to work for me. I don't mean riding at a million miles per hour but being a little looser in riding style than your average communter does make a difference. One of the best things you can do is moving around within your lane. The lateral movement attracts the eye better than a thin profile coming straight for the observer. Don't spend all of your time in the right wheel track.


Rule number 1 of motorcyling. If you're going faster than the car, and its behind you its unlikely to hit you.

[Headbanger]

Trust me, you'd have to see it to believe it, UK drivers at least, will do anything to avoid hitting a reflective cone, maybe it's a hang over from driving school/ who knows.



Won't work in Wanganui, Its sport around these ways to knock over as many as you can. Though it can be fun to drive a warratah into the ground,drop a cone over it, then watch some wanker drive into it. or fill the odd cone with concrete.

[NighthawkNZ]

Can't help but notice the continuing theme about cars causing bike accidents. Certainly it happens. Naturally we don't like coming off second to a car, being penalised by ACC, and ignored by some of the public.

So what is the answer? My understanding is that high visibility vests aren't effective, headlights only slightly better, so there must be other options.

I can't quite grasp the normal motorists problem because I always notice bikes, but thinking about it, don't always see cyclists even in plain view. Hmmm my bad.

The only thing I can think of is one or two low-wattage pulsing lights, positioned at the end of handlebars or higher.

Somehow we need a motorcycle and rider to impinge on the car driver's conciousness. Telling each other that cagers should drive more carefully is a waste of breath. If wishes were horses we'd all be kings.......

Yes it is true about the vests they do just blend in with everything else... , and head lights do get noticed to a degree... a noisey bike will stop the predistrian from walking out in front of you unless s/he is deaf...

Cages have a large blind spot than bikes, trucks have a huge blind spot... I hate seeing any vehicle siting in someone else blind spot on motorways etc...

Unfortunately the only true time bikers get noticed by cages... is when we are riding in large groups... not the standard 4 or 5... but large groups... usually for bike runs toy and easter eggg and the odd poker run etc...

That's usually because they want to know whats going on so they take notice... the rest of the time most cages go back into their own little world and don't see anything else... including 18 wheel trucks so a single bike is an impossibility and would break the laws of physics or something if you were seen. even then I have seen cagers do stupid things when the road is closed... so you can win... most of the time it is impatacience or stupid distraction... Some times I believe that when they say the didn't see you they are lie and don't want to admit it that they did something stupid... and that is probably higher than you think to...

[James Deuce]

I dont see how you can say hi-vis vest are inefective. Last night coming back from Cambridge in the wifes cage - I paid particular notice - and yes hi-vis vest are more noticeable.



You're looking for them. There's a tremendous body of work in neuro-pshychology about the issues with Hi-Vis vests and specific types of concentrated attention by road users. You look for other people driving the same model of car as you without knowing it too.

You have a vested interest in motorcyclists so you see them any way. The hi-vis vest creates target fixation in an accident situation. I saw one person claim in a Intellectual Jouranl on motorcycle studies that there is a creeping increase in the number of motorcyclists being run over after the initial impact due to the target fixation issue.

[Tank]

I hear what you are saying - but can't imaging how being 'more visible' is a bad thing. Meh - just my simple thinking.

[James Deuce]

You're NOT more visible though. You can see people on bikes with Hi-Vis vests because you're attuned to looking for bikes. Other road users aren't and don't.

[sondela]

Apparently, LTNZ have considered making them compulsory, which is strange, given they have decreed them illegal. What I was told is that taillight flashers and headlight modulators induce target fixation in brain-dead drivers.

I Like the headlight modulator idea, my bike is already cool, but with flashing lights!!? waaay cool...bit worried about becoming MORE of a target though..heh ;)
Dressing up like a road cone also has possibilities.. hmm..leather roadcones..

[Jerry74]

Wear bright orange leathers or introduce more motorcycle focus, eg looking and driving a cage in a better manner as part of the licence testing and defensive driving courses.

[Shadows]

Rule number 1 of motorcyling. If you're going faster than the car, and its behind you its unlikely to hit you.

....unless you fall off.

[trumpy]

...The stereo fucks everything though.

Ain't that the truth.

Your experience is obviously different from mine, and so it should be as we are different individuals with differing perceptions of the world (be kinda boring if we all thought the same way), but I would love to see this tested empirically to see whether this is a perception of what we believe should happen or it is actually happening. My real point was that I would hate to see a noob put loud pipes on his bike in the belief that this was now going to make him safe from idiot car drivers (and bike riders for that matter). As you say......more than the sum of the parts.

[firefighter]

Your all fucken wrong! P.T

What you need is one of those flags that kids used to put on their bikes! :laugh:

Nothings gonna make someone see you if they are'nt looking. As i've posted in another thread, big red fire truck, flashing lights with siren and airhorn going, car coming towards you, pleeeeenty of time for him to stop, your indicating to turn but know if he does'nt stop he'll hit you, so you wait for him to meander past in dream world, he does'nt see you until he's driving past because he ain't fucken looking!...............My point is about made here I think!

If you can't fucken see that he won't fucken notice anything you do.

Ask any cop, ambo firreman about this, they will all have had this happen 1000000000 times.

No matter what you do if someones not going to look then thay ain't going to look.....bleat on about colour of bike/helmet/dayglow/lights/skyfalling all you want, this is the fact of it.

[Horse]

You're NOT more visible though. You can see people on bikes with Hi-Vis vests because you're attuned to looking for bikes. Other road users aren't and don't.

Pity the research (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/328/7444/857) doesn't agree with you.


After adjustment for potential confounders, drivers wearing any reflective or fluorescent clothing had a 37% lower risk (multivariate odds ratio 0.63, 95% confidence interval 0.42 to 0.94) than other drivers.

[Headbanger]

Ain't that the truth.

Your experience is obviously different from mine, and so it should be as we are different individuals with differing perceptions of the world (be kinda boring if we all thought the same way), but I would love to see this tested empirically to see whether this is a perception of what we believe should happen or it is actually happening. My real point was that I would hate to see a noob put loud pipes on his bike in the belief that this was now going to make him safe from idiot car drivers (and bike riders for that matter). As you say......more than the sum of the parts.

We could also probably draw a comparison to the discussion in this thread about vests, People make the point that we see them because we are looking for them, I may have heard the change in exhaust note because I was listening for it, and expecting the change, especially as my subconscious no doubt noted we were in a fine place for the bike to pass, and yes, There he goes....

Just a thought.

[samgab]

Pity the research (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/328/7444/857) doesn't agree with you.

Oh snap! :) Thanks for posting that research. Good to read some real actual figures on this, rather than speculation and conjecture.
I always believed this was true. I tried to get a white/bright coloured helmet, but the cheap one within my budget at the time was only there in black. Next helmet I get will be white or bright though.

[Fatt Max]

Ride nekk'd...

I did that once for charity but my neighbours got the hump and called the rozzers. Got fined $300 for indecent exposure plus another $500 for resisting arrest (there is a whole story attached to this one).

But, it got me noticed as a bike rider, only $800 poorer.

So I reckon the best (and cheapest) way to be noticed is to ride where cagers can see you, look out for the unpredictable and ride with the attitude that the road is as much yours as theirs. No strop, no attitude, just presence.....all KB advice I must add.

Now, does anyone want to hear my 'Riding Buff' story...?

[trumpy]

We could also probably draw a comparison to the discussion in this thread about vests, People make the point that we see them because we are looking for them, I may have heard the change in exhaust note because I was listening for it, and expecting the change, especially as my subconscious no doubt noted we were in a fine place for the bike to pass, and yes, There he goes....

Just a thought.

Yes, a very apt comparison.
What we need to remember is that what apparently works or doesn't work, unless it has been empirically tested, is merely our individual perception of the situation and there is usually an expectation, (consciously or unconsciously) that what we have done (exhaust, vest etc) will make a difference and generally perceptually it does. This is just how the human mind works. There is plenty of research on this subject if anyone can be bothered to look it up. I would but I have just been out for a mountain bike ride and everything hurts, including my brain.....I'm sure those hills weren't that big last year....perhaps if I didn't take my lunch box with me.......(read 15kg of belly fat)

The other issue is that most motorcyclists that I know have way more situational awareness than the average car driver (note I did say average) will ever have. That's how come they are still alive. It's also how come you heard that gear change etc.

[James Deuce]

Pity the research (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/328/7444/857) doesn't agree with you.
That particular piece of research which is sponsored by 3M. Who make Hi-Vis vests. And medical products. I've already de-bunked that one previously.

No research is without a particular sponsor with a particular axe to grind anymore.

[Ixion]

A caveat , when research papers are cited, many of them are now quite old (20 years +). Things cahnge

Like hi-vis vests.

I've worn one for years and years, long before most folk had even heard of them. Back in the day they were VERY much noticed. Mainly I think because of the "what the fuck is that" factor. But nowadays, everyman and his dog wears one. Truck drivers, courier drivers, road workers, cops you name it. So seeing a hi-vis on the road nowadays is commonplace, no "uh- WTF " factor.

So I suspect that a lot of the research may no longer be valid. And I don't wear mine so often now, I don't think they're as effective.

Ditto for headlamps on, once it worked because NOONE had lights on during the day . Now, every other cage has them on, we don't stand out as different any more.

[Elysium]

A caveat , when research papers are cited, many of them are now quite old (20 years +). Things cahnge

Like hi-vis vests.

I've worn one for years and years, long before most folk had even heard of them. Back in the day they were VERY much noticed. Mainly I think because of the "what the fuck is that" factor. But nowadays, everyman and his dog wears one. Truck drivers, courier drivers, road workers, cops you name it. So seeing a hi-vis on the road nowadays is commonplace, no "uh- WTF " factor.

So I suspect that a lot of the research may no longer be valid. And I don't wear mine so often now, I don't think they're as effective.

Ditto for headlamps on, once it worked because NOONE had lights on during the day . Now, every other cage has them on, we don't stand out as different any more.
True, even supermarket trolly boys wear them..but they're very conspicuous at night time so I can see their value.

[James Deuce]

True, even supermarket trolly boys wear them..but they're very conspicuous at night time so I can see their value.

The only problem with that is that humans are colour blind in low light situations, like night. In a well lit carpark you'll see the orange. Otherwise it will be the white reflective strips and you're not supposed to have a rearward facing white light or reflector on a vehicle. No worries for a pedestrian.

[Headbanger]

I'll have the check my bike jacket, I would hope its got a light reflecting strip on the back, Though I suppose it hasn't if its outlawed.

Is it just me or is there just far too many regulations?

[Horse]

That particular piece of research which is sponsored by 3M. Who make Hi-Vis vests. And medical products. I've already de-bunked that one previously.

Really? From the paper:


Funding: Health Research Council of New Zealand (HRC) and the Accident Rehabilitation and Compensation Insurance Corporation (ACC). BM was the recipient of an HRC Training Fellowship. The Injury Prevention Research Centre and the Injury Prevention Research Unit were both jointly funded by the HRC and ACC at the time of the study.

Competing interests: None declared.

Ethical approval: The study was approved by the Northern Regional Health Authority Ethics Committee.

Please explain where 3M came into it?


No research is without a particular sponsor with a particular axe to grind anymore.

Ignoring scientific research because you don't like the outcomes is called "superstition" or "religion". Not something I have a lot of truck with, personally.

[Elysium]

Is it just me or is there just far too many regulations?

That's dangerous talk, it's against regulations to question.

[Chooky]

Yer..modulators are attention get'rs.
They only work on high beam and have a daylight sensor so dont work at night.
Stick some tape over the sensor when you go for a WOF.
I only use mine when I need to...like sunday arvo when all the cager's are racing back from coro to jafa land and overtaking even when there's oncoming traffic...There nothing like a flashing light to bring them back into line..:yes::yes::yes:

You can get them from here

http://www.kisantech.com/

[Genestho]

Sorry to burst bubbles, but Leon had very loud pipes 2into 1's which were very effective when changing down a gear as a heads up when following cars.
He had been riding for over 20 years starting in Moto-X, he was a defensive rider conscious of the danger on our roads..in some situations an aggressive rider to remove himself from danger.

Simon had 3/4's white leathers and I believe a white helmet, they both rode with lights on during the day.

If a driver has his "eyes shut" and "brain out to lunch", none of it matters:bye:

You can the best rider in the world with all the bells and whistles, but when your faced with oncoming traffic, if they aint looking - your screwed. IMHO

How to change that? Apart from riding in groups or having a truck ahead of you with flashing lights...I really dont know..sorry.

[Swoop]

What you need is one of those flags that kids used to put on their bikes! :laugh:
They were called a "Chopper Guard".

[Blackshear]

They were called a "Chopper Guard".

I so goddamn want one of those. Right after I buy a nautilus.

[Hitcher]

So what is the answer?

Get yer ya-ya's out.

[Madness]

True, even supermarket trolly boys wear them..but they're very conspicuous at night time so I can see their value.

Their value lies in their ability when worn to keep OSH happy in this nanny state of ours.

[Boob Johnson]

I got taken out by an 18yr old girl a year & a half ago, she saw me coming with my head light on (during the day) from a mile away & still pulled out on me. She said she thought I was further away still & hadn't looked back to check then just pulled out right on top of me.

Ive read lots of threads since about how to better protect myself from such inexperienced morons. You can weave from side to side (in some situations, not all obviously) but this won't save you if they aren't looking your way (like in the above mentioned case). Flickering head lights as some have mentioned, white riding gear, patched riding gear (lol) or even fluro vests (:crazy:)


Personally ive targeted another sense........audio. One thing that is a lot harder for cagers to ignore. Went down to see Matthew Meads of "Meads Speed" in Hawera (Taranaki) & asked him to build me a loud as fuck can. Works a treat & sounds fricken awesome, especially on the over run, she growls, pops n cackles back down the revs, bloody marvelous :clap: Cage drivers always look in the rear mirror when I approach now :niceone:

Had a Swiss biker here at the lodge just a few days ago & he had a badge sown onto his jacket...

"LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES"

Spot on :niceone:

No doubt the silly tart that took me out would have heard me coming otherwise :bash:

[SixPackBack]

Sorry to burst bubbles, but Leon had very loud pipes 2into 1's which were very effective when changing down a gear as a heads up when following cars.
He had been riding for over 20 years starting in Moto-X, he was a defensive rider conscious of the danger on our roads..in some situations an aggressive rider to remove himself from danger.

Simon had 3/4's white leathers and I believe a white helmet, they both rode with lights on during the day.

If a driver has his "eyes shut" and "brain out to lunch", none of it matters:bye:

You can the best rider in the world with all the bells and whistles, but when your faced with oncoming traffic, if they aint looking - your screwed. IMHO

How to change that? Apart from riding in groups or having a truck ahead of you with flashing lights...I really dont know..sorry.

I do high K's in and around Auckland and in my experience the inclusion of a 6 foot high throbbing pink penis coated in gallons of jism and grafted to my helmet would make little difference to visibility.....fuckers just do not look!

[MsKABC]

I got taken out by an 18yr old girl a year & a half ago, she saw me coming .... still pulled out on me. She said she thought I was further away ....then just pulled out right on top of me.



:rofl: Sorry, I must have a dirty mind :o

[Headbanger]

....fuckers just do not look!

And then we get ACC sponsored adds claiming bikes appear out of nowhere.

No they fuckin don't, they came down the damn road, in plain sight,we were there the entire time.

Don't just look twice, look fucking properly, and give way to the motorcycle.

It would be a different story if after knocking us off our bikes we got to eat their babies.

[Genestho]

I do high K's in and around Auckland and in my experience the inclusion of a 6 foot high throbbing pink penis coated in gallons of jism and grafted to my helmet would make little difference to visibility.....fuckers just do not look!

Lol, are you sure? How do you really know? Have you tried it? :shifty::sunny:

[SixPackBack]

Lol, are you sure? How do you really know? Have you tried it? :shifty::sunny:

No, not tried......they would have to be giant breasts before I could consider the proposition....would be a great publicity stunt:eek:

[Genestho]

And then we get ACC sponsored adds claiming bikes appear out of nowhere.

No they fuckin don't, they came down the damn road, in plain sight,we were there the entire time.

Don't just look twice, look fucking properly, and give way to the motorcycle.

It would be a different story if after knocking us off our bikes we got to eat their babies.


When I had a meeting with my local ACC lady with regards to my wee mission now..
The "bikes just appear" advertising campaign had just "hit the streets" in Welly...They said they were keen to have a meet with reps of different factions of the Motorcycling community to discuss future campaign ideas to educate Motorists..are the Bronz people here? Did this ever happen?
Is it in the pipeline?
And if not, I believe thats an avenue worth looking at..apparently they were dead keen on working WITH the community...to educate Motorists..
I recon theres nothing stopping concerned members of the community from submitting logical ideas to them, unless the campaign designers are Motorcyclists how can they educate motorists logically?

[Winston001]

True, even supermarket trolly boys wear them..but they're very conspicuous at night time so I can see their value.

Conspicuous trolly boys eh........oh well, if it helps you to find them when you have that special need........ :devil2:

[Ixion]

I do high K's in and around Auckland and in my experience the inclusion of a 6 foot high throbbing pink penis coated in gallons of jism and grafted to my helmet would make little difference to visibility.....fuckers just do not look!


But have you actually *tried* it ?

[Genestho]

BVut have you actually *tried* it ?

yea thats what I was angling at..:whistle:

[Winston001]

The reason most don't see you is that they can't comprehend your blistering speed and acceleration. They're only used to car level performance.

Cage's will often comment that they didn't see us or we came out of nowhere. And we did for them. They don't see bikes often enough to be able to judge the speeds we travel at. Heck i've even been surprised by bikes zooming past that I didn't even see in my mirrors.



Thanks for all the input everybody. I think Mystic's post makes a very good point - motorists are used to judging car speeds, and bikes being much smaller, look further away and are ignored.

I'm sure I've seen research that says hi-vis vests aren't effective (but better than nothing) and Ixion's point about how they are everywhere these days underlines that.

Modulators - exactly what I was trying to remember and worth a try.

Ultimately there are some stupid drivers on the road. If they don't notice fire-engines and ambulances, then bikers are snowballs in hell. Can't do much about that except keep a wary eye open.

[SixPackBack]

BVut have you actually *tried* it ?

You first;)

Worn all sorts of vis clothing, different coloured bikes, lights on-lights off with little discernible difference in cager attempted kill rate.

[Ixion]

When I had a meeting with my local ACC lady with regards to my wee mission now..
The "bikes just appear" advertising campaign had just "hit the streets" in Welly...They said they were keen to have a meet with reps of different factions of the Motorcycling community to discuss future campaign ideas to educate Motorists..are the Bronz people here? Did this ever happen?
..

BRONZ Auckland have heard nothing of it.

[Ixion]

You first;)





Well, it is your idea. I just think you should actually TRY it before saying it doesn't work.

[McJim]

I do high K's in and around Auckland and in my experience the inclusion of a 6 foot high throbbing pink penis coated in gallons of jism and grafted to my helmet would make little difference to visibility.....fuckers just do not look!
Hmmm interesting concept...I, for example AM a 6 foot throbbing penis and am often unnoticed at junctions.

You need not try it young 6PB for it does not work :(

[myvice]

Some odd little facts for you.
During the 2nd world war some boffin found that if you stuck fucking big spotlights on the side of your tank it didn’t have a silhouette... Would have worked till some higher paid boffin came along with a radar.
When an insect like a hornet or wasp attacks it will pause then fly straight at its target as it is hard to judge its speed and distance.
The average driver looks for approximately .3 of a second.
One light on your bike and it’s too hard to judge speed and two lights look like a car further away.
Having a noisy exhaust works for pedestrians and cyclists but a modern car is a quiet little bubble and they can’t hear you.
As you round a corner from a certain angle it can look like you aren’t moving, next time you are out pick an object on the side of the road and look at the surrounding landscape. There will be some things which look still as your angle and speed moves in conjunction with your perspective.
Drivers remember what they were taught in kindergarten, look for cars!
Most people can’t think beyond their own experiences, the fact that you can squeeze in between two cars to get to the gap ahead of them hasn’t occurred to them, as they can’t.
Other things they can’t do is go from one lane to another by moving 200mm to the left or right, or go from 80 to 100 in about a second with little effort.
We are not seen as a threat, however, cops and bikey gangs are so they get noticed as a self preservation exercise.
I’m bigger than them, therefore they can’t hurt me = ignore.
Some tips for young players, people wearing hats will not look and have no chance of catching movement in their mirrors.
That van full of kids has a frazzled driver, use caution.
Farmers can’t look right when leaving gates on quads or tractors, it’s a clause in a contract that must be adhered to at all times under pains of death.
When towing boats on windy roads the centre line is merely suggestive, ether side is fine.
Look before crossing intersections! Your green light won’t help your shattered leg heal faster.
That taxi is going to do something stupid, and that bus will pull out with his left indicator on.
Final note; Big fluro petrol truck wiped out a car, the driver didn’t see it,
Can’t see a day-glow tanker with lights on? We don’t have a chance!

[SARGE]

They were called a "Chopper Guard".

or ..

Birth Control Flags

[Winston001]

Hmmm interesting concept...I, for example AM a 6 foot throbbing penis and am often unnoticed at junctions.



Yeah but be fair Jim, its Invercargill so you won't stand out. :done:

[SARGE]

Yeah but be fair Jim, its Invercargill so you won't stand out. :done:

and.. Scottish..

no real shock there then is there...?

[Winston001]

and.. Scottish..

no real shock there then is there...?

Well yeah, that too, he is a big Yin as well as a colossal penis.....fits in very well. ;)

[Winston001]

Back to the topic, I've learned a lot here. In summary:

Some cagers are just stupid - nothing would capture their attention. :2guns:

Loud pipes do/don't make you visible. :no:

Fluro vests etc may help. :mellow:

Headlights help but since tourists and local use them on cages in daylight, not so effective. :shifty:

Modulators in my opinion have to be worth a try - maybe coupled with a specific bluish :Police: light only used for day riding.


So I reckon you just do your best. If you reckon loud pipes are the answer, go for it. But use your headlight and consider other options as well.

Can't say I want to whistle down the highway looking like Mr Whippy on speed so some combination of bits in moderation is the key.


Or maybe I'll just get a set of colours whipped up and some tassels from Scumdog. :eek: Always fancied a 1%er patch. :done:

[samgab]

I'd say the real key to survival is to maintain a healthy pessimistic viewpoint of all other vehicles on the road.
Expect every car to do anything stupid at any time.
That car at the driveway IS going to pull out in front of you. That car approaching the red light IS going to run it. The taxi approaching the roundabout on your right WON'T stop. That truck IS going to change lanes right as you go past it...
Also, take personal responsibility for your own safety on the road. Everything that happens on the road is YOUR fault. That way you take personal responsibility for avoiding all the potential collisions waiting to happen in the next second.

That way you don't get shocked and angry when it happens, you get cut off or whatever... It's what you expected them to do anyway, you're prepared for it, and you have positioned yourself on the road accordingly.

Of course, this will only work 99% of the time. The other 1% you just have to hope that your protective gear will do the trick.

And I don't see how any steps taken to be more visible on the road can do any HARM, even if you don't think they're doing any good. White, yellow, and orange are more visible than black, dark blue, grey, etc. So whilst they still won't see you if they aren't looking, maybe it'll help on the odd occasion where someone does take a quick glance in your direction before pulling out.

[ManDownUnder]

The answers as I see them
1) Don't ride like a fuckwit. Your average driver is conditioned to look for vehicles travelling at the same speed they are. Break that rule and you're less likely to be spotted
2) Pretend you're invisible. Your average driver is conditioned to look for cars. Any thing bigger demands their attention, andything smaller escapes it
3) Pretend the road rules actually apply to motorcyclists too... believe it or not - they do!
4) Make yourself visible. The more you do to make yourself seen the more likely you are going to be seen.. Headlight on, high vis vest, reflector tape on stuff at night... all that good stuff
5) Prepare for the worst. If I come off without my gear on I'm a lot more likely to die that without it. View a few grusome videos every now and then to remind yourself of the 2 wheeled game we're playing.

[quickbuck]

Of course, this will only work 99% of the time. The other 1% you just have to hope that your protective gear will do the trick.



Bloomin heck!
I'm well over due to be taken out by somebody then...... The last time was 11 years ago, and I'm sure I have had more than 100 near misses since then... Closer to 1000.... could be more.
The thing is though, as you say, if you are prepared for it, and assume the worst, it never comes at a shock and the avoidance action starts a lot sooner.
You also learn to pick up potential dangers a lot earlier..... Well, all except trees falling down cliff faces!

I have had a holiday job in a bike shop on SH1.
It gets congested as there is a Servo and McD's right opposite.
The number of times I have heard cage drivers hit the horn when they get cut up by another cage is truely amazing.
The first time I heard it (about 0945 on my first day) I jest, "Hit the brakes rather than the horn, and you'll be better off". A work mate sniggered and said, "You'll hear a lot of that".
Well, I did!

Point is, if you ride or drive always expect the worst. In a car it will save panel beating, on a bike it will save skin and scalitor structure....
Doesn't matter who was right or wrong, it still takes bones 6 weeks to heal, at least.

MDU's comments are also relivent.
Share the road like a responsible road user, and leave the racing for the track.

[samgab]

Bloomin heck!
I'm well over due to be taken out by somebody then...... The last time was 11 years ago, and I'm sure I have had more than 100 near misses since then... Closer to 1000.... could be more.

Yes, 99.99% and 0.01% are probably closer to the true ratio, especially for careful riders... I don't have any figures to substantiate my claims, it was just hyperbole really, to make a point...

[Boob Johnson]

:rofl: Sorry, I must have a dirty mind :o
lol you must :niceone:



Having a noisy exhaust works for pedestrians and cyclists but a modern car is a quiet little bubble and they can’t hear you.
I see red running down cheeks where ever I ride, that's the blood running from peoples ears :innocent:

A noticeable difference in cagers awareness with this new can :niceone:

[scumdog]

My mind set is this.

I have survived as long as I have by assuming that none can see me and none ever will.

I am entirely invisible and it's up to me to see them.

The assumption that everyone behind the wheel - or their car - has a IQ of 20 also helps.

I act courteously when appropriate and get the ferk outta there when it's not.

Kinda sums up my act to a T.:niceone:

And the skull-mask certainly helps me get noticed at lower speeds.

[scumdog]

Having a noisy exhaust works for pedestrians and cyclists but a modern car is a quiet little bubble and they can’t hear you.!

True, by the time an oncomming car in your lane notices your exhaust noise you're toast.

Includes car coming out of side roads etc too.

Only around town or on motorway will it MAYBE help you...maybe...

[rocketman1]

One of the big problems , and it has been proved many times is that cagers cannot tell the speed a bike is moving at because there is no parallax with a bike
Dont know how to spell that, but what it means is because as a biker you look as though you are not moving as the cager cannot get a fix on your speed or distance, same thing as walking into a clothes wire in the back yard, you see it but cannot focus on it.
The cager thinks you are doing 30km/hr when you are doing 130km/hr,worse at night.
I have heard that if you suspect the cager may not see you then weave the bike down the road a bit this apparently wakes cagers up. And they go what the f--k.
Always watch the cagers eyes, and have a couple of fingers on the front brake, failing that, watch the front wheels, if they move at all, ... you know what to do... and do it fast....sssssssssssssstop
Not that I tend follow any of this, all the time, just what I've read.
Go safe

[quickbuck]

Yes, 99.99% and 0.01% are probably closer to the true ratio, especially for careful riders... I don't have any figures to substantiate my claims, it was just hyperbole really, to make a point...

Yeah, I use MSU from time to time too... I did get your point.

[quickbuck]

I have heard that if you suspect the cager may not see you then weave the bike down the road a bit this apparently wakes cagers up. And they go what the f--k.



Works well if they are trying to drive onto your pillion seat too :)
Watch them back off real fast, as they think you are about to fall off.

[beezie]

I've just fitted a Kisan headlight modulator to my Vespa and it is unbelieveable the difference it makes to other road users attitudes - they certainly make the bike more noticeable. I do take care to switch on to dip (unmodulated) when behind anyone for any length of time or at lights etc. as they would be irritating, but going along in normal traffic it is fabulous.

I assume from various posts that even though the US standard 108 is quoted as a schedule to the LTSA regs here, modulators are still not legal because of the 'steady light' requirement.

Has anyone made submissions or engaged the LTSA over this?

[scootnz]

I'm surprised not one person has mentioned motion camouflage in this thread, although someone referred to it obliquely using wasps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_camouflage
http://www.motorcycleinfo.co.uk/index.cfm?fa=contentGeneric.twhhyjzpxapzkouq&pageId=146841

[gwigs]

U.K motorbike awareness video

http://home1.gte.net/res0ak9f/mc-crash2.mpg

[Boob Johnson]

Having not read the vast majority of this thread please excuse if i'm repeating what some have said. I did however notice a few posts up on this page someone saying that modern cars can't hear loud exhausts. That isn't accurate by any measure. Since my accident a few years ago all my bikes have a loud can & cagers always look at their mirrors when I approach them. Hell I HAVE to wear plugs others wise I would be even more deaf than I currently am so no matter what the car is they all know you are there. Only way it won't get you noticed by a cager is if he has his stereo at full tit.

Another tactic is weave slowly when approaching an intersection this is a good in, they can't take their eyes off you as you approach, mainly due to curiosity as to why you are weaving, but hey, what ever keeps you alive :niceone:

[Katman]

Notice them first.

[oldrider]

Those flares that they use on fighter planes and helicopters in war zones would be handy!

They would surely catch most peoples attention popping off left, right and centre, then floating away in a cute arc leaving a smoky trail behind them!

Be great for discouraging tailgater's too! :motu:

Well the thought of it has got my attention anyway. :wari:

[CookMySock]

Those flares that they use on fighter planes and helicopters in war zones would be handy!I got an insanely bright titanium flare on the front of my bike. It's called a High-intensity discharge headlamp. Its' 6000 kelvin flame sticks out like dogs nuts and looks like a freight train coming, LOL. NO ONE pulls out in front of it, unless they want to die.

It probably helps that I weave around like demented idiot, like I'm going to ram everyone, LOL.

Nah seriously I try not to be an asshole.. I call it "Offensive Riding" LOL.. much better than Defensive Driving.

Gee I should do training, and call it "The Offensive Driving Course." :devil2:


Steve

[Mikkel]

FAIL. <need we say more>

[mowgli]

Those flares that they use on fighter planes and helicopters in war zones would be handy!
... what about this as a tail tidy?

The Flame Blaster consists of a small, 3-liter container of petroleum gas, which is typically mounted in the trunk of the vehicle, and nozzles fitted under the front doors of the vehicle. The electronic ignition system of the Flame Buster is activated by pushing a button (located near the foot pedals), resulting in three-meter long jets of burning liquid petroleum being thrown from both sides of the vehicle.

[FJRider]

I have found through past and bitter experience, that leaping off your motorcycle ... and flinging yourself across their bonnet, gains their attention ... fast.

This method has a greater effect ...the greater the speed you are travelling...

Sadly ... this method can be painful ...

[_STAIN_]

The answers as I see them.

2) Your average driver is conditioned to look for cars. Any thing bigger demands their attention, anything smaller escapes it.

This is one of the keys and has taken 6 pages to come up.

Cage drivers only identify with objects likely to hurt them, being another car or something bigger.
They look at something of a smaller size ( motorcycle ) it is not perceived as a threat like another car.

After you have ridden and experienced the venerability, you become more attentive to bikes.
Maybe this experience needs to be part of Driver license requirement.

Cage driver exception to this is the pedestrian, as sometimes they are one.
So they will look more consciously for them, being able to put themselves in their shoes...

[CookMySock]

I have found through past and bitter experience, that leaping off your motorcycle ... and flinging yourself across their bonnet, gains their attention ... fast. One better than that, is ramming them in the drivers' door at high speed. This works really fucking well. They will never get that image out of their head.


Cage drivers only identify with objects likely to hurt them, being another car or something bigger. They look at something of a smaller size ( motorcycle ) it is not perceived as a threat like another car. So ride like you are going ram everyone. Don't fuck around with them at all - ride straight at people.

Cagers need to realise, that if they pull out in front of bikers then they are going to die. Then shit will change, but not until.

Steve

[PrincessBandit]

Flourescent attack monsters painted on your helmet - like the toothy fierce looking things that used to get painted on the nose assembly of fighter planes. Or, bobbing flashing antennas that stick out from your helmet and back of your jacket?

Umm, custom made leather animal/ballerina/morris dancer costume?

I think I need to go make my coffee and start thinking sensibly again.

[The Pastor]

you cant make cagers see you, so ride as if they cant!

[jim.cox]

A fluoro vest

And a large white BMW with blue and yellow stickers

with extra red and blue lights and siren

might help (a liitle)

[Finn]

Stay at home. It does wonders for the re-sale price.

[EJK]

Blend in with the crowd.

Drive a car.

[slofox]

You might try carrying a shotgun across the front...and firing it off at odd intervals...

Or do what a loony mate of mine did once and mount a pair of home-made skyrocket launchers along the sides of his bike...now THAT got attention, especially at night...if you can find any skyrockets that is...