Quick f3 question

[wbks]

its kind of hard to tell from the limited view to be had on the stands and not riding the bikes but for anyone that knows more then me on the subject (que Kiwibiker.co.nz): Is the level of skill between streetstock 150 and f3 in general hugely different? Obviously the lap times and speeds are going to be a lot different but I'm talking about the level of competition etc...

[Benk]

I havnt raced streetstock, but I am racing f3 and posties on a vfr400.

I have only done 2 meetings so far, but I came in with no race experience and about 2.5 track days under my belt, and am getting slightly behind mid pack, or mid pack results.

From my limited experience, there are slow and fast guys in both f3 and streetstock, but the ratio of faster guys in f3 seems a bit higher, and the really good guys are heaps faster than the rest of the pack. Not as level a playing field. If you have previous race experience, and a half reasonable bike though, I wouldnt think it would be overwhelming at all.

[Morcs]

F3 has a few guys who spend a fair bit on money on their bikes. Money buys HP. eg. SV650's.

Streetstock that generally isnt the case.

[wbks]

Aren't 400's competitive with the sv's?

[k14]

Aren't 400's competitive with the sv's?
Not unless you've got plenty of cash to throw at them and are a damn good rider.

[Benk]

The joy of the old 400s though is they are cheap as and can cross enter into posties jnr, a class which they are competitive in.

[svr]

In F3 it doesn't really matter how slow / fast / serious you and your bike are you'll find someone to race with. Mid-packers on 400s seem to have the best racing as theres heaps of them. Nothing to worry about, get out there.

[Billy]

In F3 it doesn't really matter how slow / fast / serious you and your bike are you'll find someone to race with. Mid-packers on 400s seem to have the best racing as theres heaps of them. Nothing to worry about, get out there.

Yip,What he said,Theres a cheap ZXR400 on trade me right now with a buy now of $500.See you out there

[Coyote]

Not unless you've got plenty of cash to throw at them and are a damn good rider.
Mine is practically burnt out and the front end shakes violently after 140k and during braking. I'm not going to be able to even enter my bike I don't think. :(

[wbks]

Yip,What he said,Theres a cheap ZXR400 on trade me right now with a buy now of $500.See you out thereI can't find it?

[wbks]

Ok just while I'm here, what bikes are generally good for f3? I'm thinking out of the 400's because they're cheap

[neil_cb125t]

I raced SS on an RG150 for just over 2 years - F3 was a good step up - its the cost of things like tyres and warmers and rims with wets etc that puts it up.

There are national champions in F3 - glen williams has a weapon of a bike and is the best there is in f3 thats way he is the champ he does 1:12's or 1:13's at manfield - top 600 riders sam smith, j lawrence do 1:10's.

Jarrod whintle can do great times 1:15 maybe 1:14s on a pro twin SV.

fastest rg150 1:26. ( all times are for manfield )

ZXRs are normally the fastest standard - people will argue but a they will put out 65hp without mods. thats why i have one.

but i have been out powered by a VFR with tiny b*stard on it.

sv's have around 70 - 75 out of the box but will set you back allot to setup - pipes, chips, suspension.

racing is about the rider, a better bike just makes it easier for the rider.

i have spent allot on mine but done alot of work myself which is really fulfilling as this year it cashed in with results , I place 5th overall at Wanganui cemetry circut in F3 - first 400 home behind Svs and a Er6. 3rd overall in the Xmas Tri series.

Out powering SVs in the straights is awesome - worth every penny ive spent on mine!!

im getting to the higher end of the 400 club racers spectrum in $$ spent ( not skill yet ) But it is a great class - you dont have the huge outlay and tyre cost of 600s parts are reasonably cheap - theres alot of support as the 400 boys stick togther and there is the posties which is a really good secondary class you can actually compete in!

[Clivoris]

From the horses mouth there Neil. Great info.

[koba]

I have raced in streetstock and own a VFR400 NC21 I have taken out on the track for the first time in the weekend.

Both are great bikes on the track, from what I can tell Streetstock is the place to start with great skill building for a bargain price.

People worry about being to big but skill is still more important than size and I would think that if Jay Lawrence weighed 100 kgs he would still woop my arse on an rg150.

The 400 had an extra diamesion to it in that power has to be manged closer and you can't just whack the throttle open.

Iw ould think both would be great fun but I think I have made the right hoice in racing streetstock first where I can build my skill up cheaper.
I will move to a bigger class when I'm good enough to make the most of what I've got.

Oh and the answer to your original question:
Comparing last seasons Vic Club F3 to streetstock I would say the top F3 riders are quite a bit faster than the top streetstock riders.
It is hard to tell tho, esp with the different bike in F3.

[CHOPPA]

My choice would be an aprilia rs250!

[quallman1234]

SS150 is were its at =).

[quickbuck]

I raced SS on an RG150 for just over 2 years - F3 was a good step up - !
So is that why you got it painted on the side of your bike ;)

Seriously wbks, I have known Neil for the past year and a bit, and have seen his riding come forward in leaps and bounds... don't believe that BS about no skill yet.

However in saying that, I say give it a go. The F3 field appears to be making a bit of a comeback... back to the good old days when NC30's were brand new! Too exotic to race... yadie yah....
I think the comeback is due to post classics, and it is a darn good thing.
We never really know where our next World Champ is going to come from.


He has almost convinced me to get a bike and get out there.... cheaper than wrecking my CBR at track days ;)

[Nicksta]

exactly what Neil said.....
only thing i would add is the class of rider.... with F3 your racing nationals level riders... the pace is faster and the riding harder... one thing i noticed from jumping into F3 from clubmans is how much more aggressive people are and you have to be....

[scracha]

I would think that if Jay Lawrence weighed 100 kgs he would still woop my arse on an rg150.

C'mon Malcolm. He ate a few pies last year but didn't get that big :innocent:

[roogazza]

Come on boys and girls don't kid yourselves. There's Guns and Turkeys in all the classes, ya just take your pick ! Gaz.

[Clivoris]

Come on boys and girls don't kid yourselves. There's Guns and Turkeys in all the classes, ya just take your pick ! Gaz.

Busted! :lol: Gobble Gobble:lol:

[roogazza]

Busted! :lol: Gobble Gobble:lol:

I meant that in the nicest possible way !!!!!!! This turkey is ready for the pot, but just won't lie down....... Gaz. :2thumbsup

[svr]

My choice would be an aprilia rs250!

Yeah man! We have yet to see a serious F3 effort down that route i.e. develop / spend what Glen and Terry have on their sv's (and ride as well...) and you'd see some fireworks.

[Billy]

Yeah man! We have yet to see a serious F3 effort down that route i.e. develop / spend what Glen and Terry have on their sv's (and ride as well...) and you'd see some fireworks.

Not likely,The rules for 250 2 stroke twins are too restrictive

[svr]

Not likely,The rules for 250 2 stroke twins are too restrictive

"4-2 The specifications for 250cc Production based machines eligible under 1-2 above are described in
rule 6 below."

But there's no rule 6. Think they mean rule 5 which is restrictive I guess (original pistons / barrels), although 75hp/120kg are still good numbers.

[quickbuck]

although 75hp/120kg are still good numbers.

They are indeed.... just have to learn to ride the narrow powerband, and improve your corner speed...
All skills that can be learnt.

[Billy]

They are indeed.... just have to learn to ride the narrow powerband, and improve your corner speed...
All skills that can be learnt.

Yip,Excellent numbers indeed,RGV 91 onwards in racetrim 151kgs with no gearbox oil / coolant or fuel (Had to weigh Craig Shirriffs bike too airfreight it to Aussie).72 hp will get you past a stock SV but nowhere even close to Glens/Terrys or the Tigcraft.Increasing midcorner speed will help as well until you get too the apex and find a 1 or more Vtwin diesels parked there and then its game over

[eelracing]

.Increasing midcorner speed will help as well until you get too the apex and find a 1 or more Vtwin diesels parked there and then its game over

Hahaa Brilliant.
Just dick them under brakes and steal the line off of the fat bastids.
Well thats the theory anyway.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Yip,Excellent numbers indeed,RGV 91 onwards in racetrim 151kgs with no gearbox oil / coolant or fuel (Had to weigh Craig Shirriffs bike too airfreight it to Aussie).72 hp will get you past a stock SV but nowhere even close to Glens/Terrys or the Tigcraft.Increasing midcorner speed will help as well until you get too the apex and find a 1 or more Vtwin diesels parked there and then its game over

what has to be done to get 70ish horse?
yeah, could be frustrating having an sv blocking at mid turn point, more risks would need to be taken with inventive lines and aggressive crow-bar moves!.... sounds fun!

[Wingnut]

Ok so someone correct me if I'm wrong. But in F3 you can use a V twin cofig. bike with upto 750cc. Correct?

If this is correct - wouldn't a 749 Ducati that has a V2 748cc engine that puts out around 116hp and weights around 175kg, be a good choice to compete with the top level bikes. Have seen a few around on the second hand market..... But ching ching.....

What are these top runners really spending?

[CHOPPA]

Ok so someone correct me if I'm wrong. But in F3 you can use a V twin cofig. bike with upto 750cc. Correct?

If this is correct - wouldn't a 749 Ducati that has a V2 748cc engine that puts out around 116hp and weights around 175kg, be a good choice to compete with the top level bikes. Have seen a few around on the second hand market..... But ching ching.....

What are these top runners really spending?

I think theres something about valves..?

[Wingnut]

I think theres something about valves..?

Dead right Mr Chop. Should have kept on reading - engines with 3 or more valves per cylinder are restricted to 650cc.

Well that fucks my theory entirely!

[speights_bud]

SS150 is were its at =).

What he said :D

[Wingnut]

After seeing how big the field for the 150s was at levels, got to consider the street stock 150s for sure. Was good racing to watch too. Till the rain came and then the poor bugger that binned it at the hairpin. Hope he is ok...

But yea anyway - that 150 class is probably the best place to start racing - but at the end of the day - as long as you get out there its all good.

[eelracing]

Ok so someone correct me if I'm wrong. But in F3 you can use a V twin cofig. bike with upto 750cc.


Not 100% sure but as per Choppas answer i think 750 twins can only have two valves per pot,which means using the ducati ss series.

And t3mp0r4ry nzr it is fun but ultimately frustrating...I would like MNZ to introduce a Jnr/Snr type class system to F3 along the lines of Post Classics.
Something along the lines of up to 450cc jnr,up t0 750cc Snr maybe.

[rachprice]

what has to be done to get 70ish horse?
yeah, could be frustrating having an sv blocking at mid turn point, more risks would need to be taken with inventive lines and aggressive crow-bar moves!.... sounds fun!

O-rings, base gasket and pipes I think

[Billy]

[QUOTE=t3mp0r4ry nzr;1902779]what has to be done to get 70ish horse?

On an RGV,Atleast stage 1 ignition (23d10 blackbox)$1000.00,Sagaya pipes around another $1000.00,Tidy up the transfer ports and match the cases too the cylinders,Close the squish up,Mild porting too the exhaust port,power valve modification,Bore the carbs too 35mm,Approximate cost $2500.00 unless you can do it yourself,Kit reedvalves and so on.Add that to your $3000.00 RGV and your no better off than on a stock SV

[slowpoke]

What are these top runners really spending?

It's more about what they know. Knowing how to use what they've got, knowing how best to improve it, knowing how to adapt to different tracks and conditions etc. The machine is only part of the equation and none of our top racers have just rocked up to the F3 shop and bought a winning bike off the shelf, they are all self developed. It's not as simple as just throwing a fistful of cash at a man behind a counter and walking away with a guaranteed winner.

As for how much people are spending, look at it this way: there are a swag of F3 bikes worth a lot more than Sam Loves Pro-Twin that don't get around a track anywhere near as quickly.

[jrandom]

Does anyone else find it mildly amusing that on the racetrack, an SV650 is a lardy torque monster, and on the road, it's chickwheels?

[Wingnut]

I would like MNZ to introduce a Jnr/Snr type class system to F3 along the lines of Post Classics.
Something along the lines of up to 450cc jnr,up t0 750cc Snr maybe.

Wouldn't think there would be enough in the field to split it up?

[koba]

I think theres something about valves..?


Yep,
5 stroke Twins
Under 500cc Unlimited except fuel.
650 Max Watercooled 4 Valvers retaining standard airbox setup.
750 Max Aircooled twovalvers

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

[QUOTE=t3mp0r4ry nzr;1902779]what has to be done to get 70ish horse?

On an RGV,Atleast stage 1 ignition (23d10 blackbox)$1000.00,Sagaya pipes around another $1000.00,Tidy up the transfer ports and match the cases too the cylinders,Close the squish up,Mild porting too the exhaust port,power valve modification,Bore the carbs too 35mm,Approximate cost $2500.00 unless you can do it yourself,Kit reedvalves and so on.Add that to your $3000.00 RGV and your no better off than on a stock SV

cheers billy, plus add in cost of a rebuild as a`starting point, namely cylinder replating, crank rebuild,maybe rods,pistons, thats the cost of an sv right there in the engine,and before touching the suspention :doh:

the attractiveness of a turn key and forget sv650 is huge. a standard one could be at the pointy end of f3 in the right hands. I miss my old one :(

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Does anyone else find it mildly amusing that on the racetrack, an SV650 is a lardy torque monster, and on the road, it's chickwheels?

yeah i dont stop finding that amusing! its plenty fast on the road. playing with a cb900 hornet and vtr1000 up the parapara one day last year was priceless! come the twisty stuff I would dissapear then wait up on the straights, did this for the 20-30km length of the dodgy road. when I pulled over to turn around and go home, they stopped me and stood stairing at the bike for 10 minutes, looking as pale as hell, couldnt believe a "chicks bike" could go so quick!

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

O-rings, base gasket and pipes I think

cheers. yeah I read that on the rgv website.is this simply raising the port and closing up the squish (machined ring for tzr o-ring)? these changes plus jetting will get 70hp? im a sceptical bastard at the best of times. good numbers if possible.

good luck with your upcoming racing:scooter:

[rachprice]

Yeah there is a few more things as well...already mentioned by someone who knows a lot more than me, I just had a quick scim over it...

[Billy]

Yeah there is a few more things as well...already mentioned by someone who knows a lot more than me, I just had a quick scim over it...

Yip,There are other ways to improve performance ie:Machine the cylinders and raise the port timing,Advance the timing manually 5% and so on but without that blackbox you cant realistically expect more than 65 hp