How well sprung is your stock suspension?

[discotex]

Found this one 600rr.net forums. Apparently this guy is well respected in the US (like our own Robert Taylor).

Kinda silly measuring sag with the feet just touching the ground but clearly this is just a quick guide.

2007 Models (http://www.onthethrottle.tv/pages/page/showroom_suspension_2007/207_208)

2008 Models (http://www.onthethrottle.tv/pages/page/showroom_suspension_2008/207_625)

[AlBundy]

Kinda silly measuring sag with the feet just touching the ground but clearly this is just a quick guide.

Please elaborate...

I'd have thought feet just touching the ground, means 99.9% of your weight on the bike, similar to when you ride...

[discotex]

Please elaborate...

I'd have thought feet just touching the ground, means 99.9% of your weight on the bike, similar to when you ride...

It's not so much about total weight but about the position of the weight. With your feet down you don't lean as much on the clipons.

Probably not an issue on a motard tho.

Also needs to be done with all your riding gear on to be truly accurate.

[AlBundy]

After a quick test on my other bike, I'd have to disagree with you. By sitting comfortably and having one foot on the peg, using the other for balance, I didn't notice much difference and certainly didn't notice suspension movement.

Theoretically, there shouldn't be much weight on your wrists anyway. Your body core should be taking most of the weight.

Also, the weight bias could shift somewhat, depending on how much you bend your arms and whether you are humping the tank or sitting further back, which changes quite a bit while riding...
The static test is to get the sag into the general range, after which one can fine tune...
And yes, best done with all-up-weight... And all the damping set to minimum...

Lol, as for the 'tard, I haven't even bothered with trying to change anything with it...

Going back to the original post, it at least gives one an idea of how the bikes come stock... (Assuming it's set on factory settings)

[discotex]

After a quick test on my other bike, I'd have to disagree with you. By sitting comfortably and having one foot on the peg, using the other for balance, I didn't notice much difference and certainly didn't notice suspension movement.

For all I know you could be right... Goes against everything I've ever read on suspension tuning though.

Will try it both ways when I setup the sag on my 600rr and see what happens.

[AlBundy]

For all I know you could be right... Goes against everything I've ever read on suspension tuning though.

Will try it both ways when I setup the sag on my 600rr and see what happens.

Lol, all I'm saying, is we are dealing with a few mm for the difference in weight shift. A few mm is not a big deal when you are talking 10's of mm due to differences in weight.

Looking at the 08 Blade vid for example, the rear sag goes from 23mm to 43mm (or thereabouts), between the riders. If the lass shifted a little forwards or rearwards, it'd be a few mm.

It depends on what one uses as a guage anyway. Some people say 20-30mm for track/sport. 30-40mm for sport/road... There's an amount of leeway incorporated already...

I'm right there on NOT being an expert, just I don't see how that small amount of weight bias will make a difference for 90% of us, setting our bikes up.

[McJim]

That's all very well for people with enough coin to always have a bike that's less than 3 years old but what about us poor tight fisted gits that will always own a bike that's at least eight years old? (I'm currently waiting for a 749 to reach my level of affordability.....)

Closest I could get to my bike was the 800ss - that geezer is a northern pom wiv a bit of yankee accent thrown in. He seems to reckon the bike is good for anyone under 100kg but a bit soft on the front for pie mongers.

suits me.

[AlBundy]

To be honest, I think most of us buy a bike and ride it like we get it... It's only when the suspension is REALLY bad, that a lot of people go looking for answers.

[James Deuce]

It was shite. So I replaced it.

[McJim]

To be honest, I think most of us buy a bike and ride it like we get it... It's only when the suspension is REALLY bad, that a lot of people go looking for answers.

Yeah - it kind of vindicted my decision to keep the bike when I gave Gremlin a shot of the bike. After conceeding it is underpowered he did say "I can see why you enjoy riding it though - it really does handle like it's on rails."

[AlBundy]

Yeah - it kind of vindicted my decision to keep the bike when I gave Gremlin a shot of the bike. After conceeding it is underpowered he did say "I can see why you enjoy riding it though - it really does handle like it's on rails."

And that, after jumping off the KTM with sorted suspension... Must be a peach then...

[Pussy]

Most bikes with stock suspension don't have ideal spring rates.
e.g K6 GSX-R750.. stock fork spring rate: 1.00kg/mm, even for gravitationally challenged riders like myself, too heavy! Replaced by .95s. Gassit Girl's 750 has .90s fitted now
Rear spring: 9.50nm... okay for me, GG's bike now has 8.5 fitted.
You would be surprised just how much better your bike will feel with correct spring weight and rider sag

[discotex]

To be honest, I think most of us buy a bike and ride it like we get it... It's only when the suspension is REALLY bad, that a lot of people go looking for answers.

After 3 trackdays I'm starting to appreciate how much difference suspension can really make so every bit counts to me. But yeah ballparking it is going to be a good start for most riders. I rode for 6 months on stock settings before I started tinkering.

Was interesting to watch the Ninja 250r vid. Basically if you're 100kg+ you'll be almost bottoming out the suspension which is mega dodgy.

Also the 08 cbr600rr must be broken as it has the same suspension as the 07 yet they get totally different results.

[AlBundy]

I'm not convinced all bikes are set up equally.

There were reports on one forum, two brand new bikes, standing alongside each other in a shop. The one tail was about 15mm lower than the other. Explain that.

Who does the actual suspension setting to 'standard'? The factory, or the bike shop? Either way, they are not all assembled/adjusted the same...

One would hope that in the above videos, they would have adjusted everything to stock, from the owners manual settings and not relying on it from the factory...

[Pussy]

Please elaborate...

I'd have thought feet just touching the ground, means 99.9% of your weight on the bike, similar to when you ride...

Whenever I set up the sag on a bike, I have the rider in the seated riding position on the bike.
I have found the Racetech site helpful with recommended spring rates, and Robert Taylor has a useful set up guide available too.
You would be surprised how woefully set up/sprung some bikes are in their stock "as delivered" form.

[Gremlin]

And that, after jumping off the KTM with sorted suspension... Must be a peach then...
Depends what you like, while the ducati cornered on rails, to a motard style, it would be seen as restrictive. McJim also struggled with the responsiveness of the KTM, as you don't have to mind the throttle too much on the Duc. Not quite the same with stuff with what? Twice the hp?

To OP: What do you define as stock suspension. My KTM came with WP standard all round, but AMPS managed to hand it over to me with the forks set up differently. I then got Triple X to pull apart the forks, and rebuild them at the 1000km service. They also tweaked the factory settings a bit (had a bit of an idea what it needed, my weight, but not specifics), as it comes set for max weight (don't ask me why :wacko:)

Some will spend the first few rides of the new bike tweaking the suspension exactly to their desires. I prefer to give the shop rough idea of weight, and how I want to ride it, let them get it ball park, then just ride the damn thing :ride:

That said, I do believe that any 600+ cc bike should at least have the stock suspension set up for their own weight (or within reason) as a 60kg newbie to big bikes is going to ride a bike very differently to a 100kg experienced rider.

[discotex]

To OP: What do you define as stock suspension.

My definition of stock suspension is:

The suspension components that come fitted from the factory set to the factory settings as per the manual.

Unless we're talking about comparing to aftermarket parts in which stock just means the original components at whatever setting the ride has found works for them.


And I totally agree that shops should be sending bikes (new and old) out the door AFTER setting up the sag with the rider. Especially heavy riders that might be in the unsafe range on stock springs.

[Gremlin]

Well, my suspension was definitely too hard (max weight settings are put on the bikes), and the front forks over-packed with grease.

Once the settings were changed and the front forks rebuilt, lovely :love:

[vifferman]

I have found the Racetech site helpful with recommended spring rates
:blink:
I know lots of people who say that the Racetech spring rates guide is heavily biased towards racing, ad that if you use their recommended spring rates on the street, the ride is way too hard.

[Pussy]

:blink:
I know lots of people who say that the Racetech spring rates guide is heavily biased towards racing, ad that if you use their recommended spring rates on the street, the ride is way too hard.
I've found them perfect for me!

Edit: In fact, I've just installed different springs in the front and back of Gassit Girl's 750, and gone for slightly heavier rates than Racetech recommend for steet set-up.... GG is rapt at the results.
We have identical bikes... hers doesn't feel very good to me, as the suspension is sitting lower in it's stroke with me aboard, and conversely the spring rate on my bike is too stiff for her.... but our bikes feel bloody awesome individually to their respective owners

[vifferman]

I've found them perfect for me!
Maybe it's just the calculator for VFRs then. The overwhelming opinion on the VFR forums is that you need to go one or two grades down (e.g., if it recommends 1.00km/mm, then you go to a 0.95 or even 0.90.)
I've got 0.95 kg/mm front springs (standard is 0.74) and it's too firm - 0.90 would've been ideal.

[Pussy]

Maybe it's just the calculator for VFRs then. The overwhelming opinion on the VFR forums is that you need to go one or two grades down (e.g., if it recommends 1.00km/mm, then you go to a 0.95 or even 0.90.)
I've got 0.95 kg/mm front springs (standard is 0.74) and it's too firm - 0.90 would've been ideal.

Eat more pies! :)

[Robert Taylor]

My definition of stock suspension is:

The suspension components that come fitted from the factory set to the factory settings as per the manual.

Unless we're talking about comparing to aftermarket parts in which stock just means the original components at whatever setting the ride has found works for them.


And I totally agree that shops should be sending bikes (new and old) out the door AFTER setting up the sag with the rider. Especially heavy riders that might be in the unsafe range on stock springs.

And do you think they should be changing springs out of their already slender margins? ( which arent always available in alternative rates for many oem shocks or not at all )

[discotex]

And do you think they should be changing springs out of their already slender margins? ( which arent always available in alternative rates for many oem shocks or not at all )

I'd say firstly they should setup the preload as best as possible on stock. Should make the customer appreciate their new bike even more right?

If the sag is dangerous (say said rider is 125kg+ on a Ninja 250R) then they should be either re-springing the bike (at the rider's expense *if* respringing is possible) or suggesting they apply for an exemption to the 250 rule so they can get a bike that is safe for them.

Certainly don't expect the dealer to absorb the cost, just make the bike safe.