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View Full Version : Don't look, Hitcher, you'll be horrified!



Beemer
3rd February 2009, 12:17
This story was in the Dominion Post yesterday and I found this online at msnbc:

LONDON - On the streets of Birmingham, the queen's English is now the queens English.

England's second-largest city has decided to drop apostrophes from all its street signs, saying they're confusing and old-fashioned.

But some purists are downright possessive about the punctuation mark.

It seems that Birmingham officials have been taking a hammer to grammar for years, quietly dropping apostrophes from street signs since the 1950s. Through the decades, residents have frequently launched spirited campaigns to restore the missing punctuation to signs denoting such places as "St. Pauls Square" or "Acocks Green."

This week, the council made it official, saying it was banning the punctuation mark from signs in a bid to end the dispute once and for all.

Councilor Martin Mullaney, who heads the city's transport scrutiny committee, said he decided to act after yet another interminable debate into whether "Kings Heath," a Birmingham suburb, should be rewritten with an apostrophe.

"I had to make a final decision on this," he said Friday. "We keep debating apostrophes in meetings and we have other things to do."

'They confuse people'
Mullaney hopes to stop public campaigns to restore the apostrophe that would tell passers-by that "Kings Heath" was once owned by the monarchy.

"Apostrophes denote possessions that are no longer accurate, and are not needed," he said. "More importantly, they confuse people. If I want to go to a restaurant, I don't want to have an A-level (high school diploma) in English to find it."

But grammarians say apostrophes enrich the English language.

"They are such sweet-looking things that play a crucial role in the English language," said Marie Clair of the Plain English Society, which campaigns for the use of simple English. "It's always worth taking the effort to understand them, instead of ignoring them."

Mullaney claimed apostrophes confuse GPS units, including those used by emergency services. But Jenny Hodge, a spokeswoman for satellite navigation equipment manufacturer TomTom, said most users of their systems navigate through Britain's sometime confusing streets by entering a postal code rather than a street address.

She said that if someone preferred to use a street name — with or without an apostrophe — punctuation wouldn't be an issue. By the time the first few letters of the street were entered, a list of matching choices would pop up and the user would choose the destination.

Grammarians revolt
A test by The Associated Press backed this up. In a search for London street St. Mary's Road, the name popped up before the apostrophe had to be entered.

There is no national body responsible for regulating place names in Britain. Its main mapping agency, Ordnance Survey, which provides data for emergency services, takes its information from local governments and each one is free to decide how it uses punctuation.

"If councils decide to add or drop an apostrophe to a place name, we just update our data," said Ordnance Survey spokesman Paul Beauchamp. "We've never heard of any confusion arising from their existence."

To sticklers, a missing or misplaced apostrophe can be a major offence. [I had to correct this - they had offense!]

British grammarians have railed for decades against storekeepers' signs advertising the sale of "apple's and pear's," or pubs offering "chip's and pea's."

In her best-selling book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves," Lynne Truss recorded her fury at the title of the Hugh Grant-Sandra Bullock comedy "Two Weeks Notice," insisting it should be "Two Weeks' Notice."

"Those spineless types who talk about abolishing the apostrophe are missing the point, and the pun is very much intended," she wrote.

Magua
3rd February 2009, 12:21
I see it all too often here, Barrys Point Road. :no:

Mully
3rd February 2009, 12:23
"Acocks Green."


So this should be "Acock's Green"??

Ye Gods.

Better than "Mcock's Green", I suppose.

Beemer
3rd February 2009, 12:24
So this should be "Acock's Green"??

Ye Gods.

Better than "Mcock's Green", I suppose.

If yours is, then I'd get it seen to, pronto!

Mully
3rd February 2009, 12:24
I see it all too often here, Barrys Point Road. :no:

Did this used to be Barry's Point? (I don't know the history of it).

I love the way that idiots get confused, so they change the language. It's part of the Dumbing Down (tm) of the population.

Mully
3rd February 2009, 12:25
If yours is, then I'd get it seen to, pronto!

Got some cream from the doctor - it cleared right up.

At least, he said he was a doctor.....

Mikkel
3rd February 2009, 12:26
It's the beginning of the end.

Or

Its the beginning of the end. -As the case may be.

Beemer
3rd February 2009, 12:27
It's the beginning of the end.

Or

Its the beginning of the end. -As the case may be.

We know you are only joking - you have apostrophes in your signature - AND they're in the right place!:wari:

MisterD
3rd February 2009, 12:31
So this should be "Acock's Green"??



It could be Adcocks' Green...but how do we know without the apostrophe?

Honestly though, this is Birmingham we're talking about. Why should we expect people who talk like that to have any respect for the written form of the language?

Naki Rat
3rd February 2009, 12:42
They're bound to regret their decision over there. If you're ignoring your punctuation it's going to lead to confusion by its omission. :jerry:

Hitcher
3rd February 2009, 12:56
Hawke's Bay troubles more than its locals.

Skyryder
3rd February 2009, 12:56
Well the apostrophe is not needed in common speech. After all we speak Queens exactly the same as Queen's. But then we all know there is only one Queen unless you are talking to a cat lover.

English is an evolving language is neither written or spoken as it was a hundred years ago. I still use it and always will.................but at the end of the day it is it realy necessary, the apostrophe that is. My bad syntax.

Skyryder

Hitcher
3rd February 2009, 13:01
Well the apostrophe is not needed in common speech. After all we speak Queens exactly the same as Queen's. But then we all know there is only one Queen unless you are talking to a cat lover.

Sigh. The same argument can be extended to capital letters. Which is just fine until you want to help your uncle jack off a horse.

Starky307
3rd February 2009, 13:34
Sigh. The same argument can be extended to capital letters. Which is just fine until you want to help your uncle jack off a horse.

Good example.

Badjelly
3rd February 2009, 13:37
...you want to help your uncle jack off a horse.

Getting back to something resembling the original subject, has anyone seen an apostrophe on a New Zealand street sign recently?

I know for a fact that Morgans Rd in Blenheim lacks one, and I rather suspect that the road was once Mr Morgan's. Not to mention Dillons Point Rd.

Headbanger
3rd February 2009, 13:41
Its not an argument, Its a fact, English is in a constant state of change, and its defined by however the people are using it, Not by a book of rules held by people who want to control it.

The shape and form of language has always and always will be in the hands of the users, A big book of rules that tries to stop time at some fictitious point and place in order to confine the language is deluded, pointless and a wasted effort.

If in 100 years TXT has taken over and everyone is fluent and comfortable and communication is taking place then so be it, That's the English language for you.Evolving. There is no up down,sideways,degradation, its moving in every way possible,everywhere around us all.

Communication is the objective, Language is the tool.

pritch
3rd February 2009, 14:40
There is a street near where I live called Queens Road. Considering the lack of imagination of the shitwits that name places in this country there may well be a Queens Road or Queens Street near where you live too.

Great care would be needed with an apostrophe in this instance; Queen's Road is a whole lot different to Queens' Road :whistle:

People might get the latter confused with other roads altogether.
Like f'rinstance Karangahape Road? :confused:

Badjelly
3rd February 2009, 15:49
Its not an argument, Its a fact, English is in a constant state of change, and its defined by however the people are using it, Not by a book of rules held by people who want to control it...

Communication is the objective, Language is the tool.

You've certainly given that straw man (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/straw_man) a good thrashing!

So now we agree language inevitably changes and is defined by use, do you think apostrophe's should be used on street sign's?

Headbanger
3rd February 2009, 16:07
So now we agree language inevitably changes and is defined by use, do you think apostrophe's should be used on street sign's?

If your comprehension was a little more advanced you would have the answer.

And just because I like to encourage thinking I'll give it to you in a question.

Do the signs communicate the required information effectively without the apostrophe's?


3



2



1

martybabe
3rd February 2009, 16:15
Oroight, Oi appen to bay frum Kings eaf and there ain't never been no apostrophe in it, innit. Moy point being, ow can yow make such a fuss about not puttin apostrophes in street names and soins, when they was never in 'em in the first place.

If the bloke dain't say nuffin about leavin 'em out,I don't fink nobody would ave noticed em missing, never seen an apostrophe in a street sign in Birmingham and I lived in the poo hole for 47 years.

I do agree that punctuation is a very useful tool but this is just another English excuse to argue the toss about trivial things whilst the streets crash and burn around them.

Apologies for my written interpretation of spoken Brummy, that's how they speak and write. Don't go there Hitcher, It's language assassination!

Tarra a bit.....Goodbye for now.

Badjelly
3rd February 2009, 16:26
And just because I like to encourage thinking I'll give it to you in a question.

Do the signs communicate the required information effectively without the apostrophe's?

Gee, thanks for encouraging me to think, mate.

What "Barrys Point Rd" communicates to me is that this road was named after an individual called Barrys. That sounds a little odd, but there you are.

Language is defined by the people using it? I am one of them. I am used to following certain conventions regarding the use of trailing "s"s and apostrophes in various combinations to form plurals and possessives. I find it jarring when those conventions appear to be violated.

That said, it's never greatly bothered me that Morgans Rd doesn't have the apostrophe that I think it deserves. But Barrys Point Rd?

Magua
3rd February 2009, 16:29
I think I know of a sign with an apostrophe on the North Shore. Nor'east road.
Wait, Nor'east Drive. http://www.wises.co.nz/l/Auckland/Northcross/Nor%2527East+Drive/

Headbanger
3rd February 2009, 16:29
Gee, thanks for encouraging me to think, mate.


Happy to help.

:whistle: