What is this "vanishing point" nonsense?

[Tony W]

Would someone be kind enough to explain what this is when cornering.

I think I saw it in a bike mag once, with photos, but couldn't figure out what they were on about.

Surely anybody can see if a corner is opening up or tightening !..
or am I riding too slowly, so the point vanishes before I can get to it...!

I am now ready for my lesson...

[Motu]

I've never seen it either...maybe I'm looking in the wrong place! When I have tried to find it...it would be far too close to the front of the bike...I'm always looking well beyond that!

[R6_kid]

The vanishing point is where the outside of the corner meets the inside of the corner - at the furtherest point you can see.

Be careful not to use the white line on the RHS of the road as a reference for you VP. With RH corners it is advisable to use the centreline as the 'inside' of your corner.

Of course, you're not supposed to ride at a speed faster than which you can stop in half the visible distance in front of you...

[Ixion]

I suspect that you have been riding for a few years, and , like me, you use it without all the complex analytical stuff that people go on about.

As you say, one can see if the corner is opening up or the reverse. I dare say that in doing so, one subconsciously notes some "vanishing point". But it is all automatic. Indeed, I don't really identify corners as tightening or the reverse, unless I (literally) stop and think about it. One just automatically winds on more lean or more throttle.

Over analysis, IMHO.

[R6_kid]

Ixion, you of all people should be aware at the almost unbelievable lack of 'common' sense amongst people these days!

Over analysis, perhaps for those with their brains engaged, but there are those who would have had no idea unless told otherwise. Kind of like counter-steering.

[jrandom]

counter-steering.

You do realise that that doesn't work on Harleys, though, right?

[dipshit]

Of course, you're not supposed to ride at a speed faster than which you can stop in half the visible distance in front of you...

:bs:

You are meant to be able to stop in the total distance visible.

[R6_kid]

:bs:

You are meant to be able to stop in the total distance visible.

Thanks for that clarification, i'll ride faster from now on.


You do realise that that doesn't work on Harleys, though, right?

counter steering or just cornering in general?

[98tls]

Would someone be kind enough to explain what this is when cornering.

I think I saw it in a bike mag once, with photos, but couldn't figure out what they were on about.

Surely anybody can see if a corner is opening up or tightening !..
or am I riding too slowly, so the point vanishes before I can get to it...!

I am now ready for my lesson... Means bike mags are full of someones opinion and not much else.Less reading more riding generally sorts it.

[Ixion]

Ixion, you of all people should be aware at the almost unbelievable lack of 'common' sense amongst people these days!

Over analysis, perhaps for those with their brains engaged, but there are those who would have had no idea unless told otherwise. Kind of like counter-steering.


Perhaps. But i suspect there is a probability of so complicating things that a novice rider is too busy looking for vanishing points and worrying about counter steering and all the rest of it, that he simply forgets to actually go round the bloody corner!

I mean, it's pretty simple really. See corner, lean bike over , push more or twist more as required until you shoot out the other side. You don't need to write a thesis about the physics of it, just need to do it.

[dipshit]

Thanks for that clarification, i'll ride faster from now on.

Precisely.

You only need to be able to stop in half the visible distance if you are on a single lane two-way road.

At least try to give realistic advice.

[98tls]

Perhaps. But i suspect there is a probability of so complicating things that a novice rider is too busy looking for vanishing points and worrying about counter steering and all the rest of it, that he simply forgets to actually go round the bloody corner!

I mean, it's pretty simple really. See corner, lean bike over , push more or twist more as required until you shoot out the other side. You don't need to write a thesis about the physics of it, just need to do it. Xactly or if not simple enough get off the interweb and ride the bloody thing.Forget about vanishing points and all the other bullshit if you have to practice anything try imagining the worst is happening before your eyes and get yourself to respond accordingly ie many when it happens do nothing and die some do to much and die a few mili seconds later.

[jrandom]

counter steering or just cornering in general?

Counter steering, of course.

It's cos of physics.

[McJim]

There's an awful lot of jargon bandied about in motorcycling circles. Many people are so used to it they don't actually realise they're spouting incomprehensible rubbish.

I went to RRRS for example after riding for a sum total of 2 weeks. Most of what was said made sense but one instructor insisted on being cryptic with jargon so I unfortunately switched off and listened to the other instructors instead. A very good system they have - rotate instructors and pupils in the hope the pupil will understand at least one of the instructors!

A year later and the recall of the conversations made sense with the definitions applied.

[MSTRS]

The vanishing point is real. And can be quite useful. From the rider's perspective, the sides of the road (or lane markings) appear to intersect at a distance ahead. In a corner, obviously that distance is closer to teh rider than on a straight section. Now, the 'science' of riding to the vanishing point says that as you approach the corner, the apparent intersecting of the road edge gets closer to the rider. So you slow down by whatever is required to ensure that that apparent intersection remains at a constant distance. You are now at the 'natural' speed for that particular corner. If the distance to VP decreases, then the corner is tightening up and you have a little warning to adjust your speed or lean angle before you 'get caught'. Should the distance to VP increase, then the corner is opening out and you would throttle on, as you have just apexed that corner and are about to exit it.
(this info is more for those reading this thread who really don't know the term 'vanishing point')

[vifferman]

Many people ... don't actually realise they're spouting incomprehensible rubbish.
Oh I do. :yes:
In fact, I really can't help it.
I suppose I could never open my mouth or never write anything, but then the incomprehensible rubbish would start to build up pressure, and then my head would explode, showering everything within a 2km radius with stinking shit.

[Crisis management]

Would someone be kind enough to explain what this is when cornering.

I am now ready for my lesson...

Ignore them all Tony, they're talking shite.....only KTM riders know what the vanishing point is!

And the answer is....(ta da, drum roll of whatever)

It's that point when the skinny bastard on a DRZ vanishes around the corner in front of them not to be seen again until the pub.


Happy now? :Pokey:

[The Stranger]

I mean, it's pretty simple really. See corner, lean bike over , push more or twist more as required until you shoot out the other side. You don't need to write a thesis about the physics of it, just need to do it.

Sure, and everyone's different.
Some learn by doing, some by reading, some by trial and error some by pictures - whatever.

Personally, I need to know how and why things work. Without this knowledge you are at a disadvantage. It's pretty simple really, when things go wrong - and they invariably do - if you don't know how or why something works, how do you decide what corrective action you will take? Trial and error can be both painful and expensive.

I agree, no need for a thesis about the physics of it, and he wasn't delivering one - simply answering a question raised.

[Mikkel]

The vanishing point is the point, during a burnout, where the smoke becomes so thick you can no longer see the bike nor the operator.

[Finn]

You do realise that that doesn't work on Harleys, though, right?

Nether do the brakes.

[cowboyz]

vanishing points are an important way of learning how to read the road. Reading the road is an important way of making sure you dont get caught out in a corner.
There have been plenty of cases where a rider gets mid corner and "it just tightened up all of a sudden" If a rider is concentrating and reading the road and taking note of looking through the corner (rather than looking at the corner) then it gives them another tool to use that they wont get caught out and find themselves in a situation "all of a sudden"
It is an important part in the rider training that I undertake.

[Sully60]

Nonsense? I Challenger that!

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[Headbanger]

It is my understanding the the vanishing point is when someone's head gets so far up their own arse that no light can be registered by their eyeballs.

Not that this condition can be found here at Kiwibiker........

[Winston001]

Vanishing points are an important way of learning how to read the road....

There have been plenty of cases where a rider gets mid corner and "it just tightened up all of a sudden" If a rider is concentrating and reading the road and taking note of looking through the corner (rather than looking at the corner) then it gives them another tool to use that they wont get caught out and find themselves in a situation "all of a sudden"
It is an important part in the rider training that I undertake.



Yep, nice post.

Not all riders are experienced so its a learning method. Basically its the "Look where you want to go, not where you are" advice. If you look at the rock face on the outside of a corner - thats what you'll hit. But if you look through/around the corner to where it goes out of sight, that is where you will steer the bike.

The Vanishing Point also stops you concentrating on the road just in front of the bike - if you do that, you won't see the corner tightening or hazards ahead in the middle distance. By looking ahead you get much earlier warning.

[yungatart]

I personally could never get the "vanishing point" thing...no matter how hard I tried. I can see the vanishing point, but because of a lack of depth perception, I found it meaningless.
I went for a ride one day with an extremely experienced rider, who talked about "limit points" on a corner...the outside of both sides of the road, using trees, lamposts, roadmarker posts etc as a guide to what the corner is doing. For me, this is a much more effective tool.

[R6_kid]

It's cos of physics.

Is phsyics aware that he is causing them trouble? I'm sure he'd ease up if he knew.

[cowboyz]

I personally could never get the "vanishing point" thing...no matter how hard I tried. I can see the vanishing point, but because of a lack of depth perception, I found it meaningless.
I went for a ride one day with an extremely experienced rider, who talked about "limit points" on a corner...the outside of both sides of the road, using trees, lamposts, roadmarker posts etc as a guide to what the corner is doing. For me, this is a much more effective tool.

yep. different strokes for different folks. I have heard about the limit point theroy but find it really hard to explain/teach. Thats where learner riders benefit from having advice from several sources rather than one teacher. People explain things differently and people pickup on different explainations differently.

[Tony W]

:2thumbsup:2thumbsup:FANTASTIC RESPONSE GUYS .:2thumbsup:2thumbsup:

It has confirmed my faith in myself...and I have found new respect for the intelligence, the insight, the wit and bullshit alertness of YOU fellow Kiwibikers.

MSTRS, thanks for your explanation. Even with that I still haven't got a fucking clue what it means...! (and that's no disrespect to you.)
I'm just dumb, cos I've been riding for only 37 years.

CRISIS, thanks for the explanation. I now understand about Vanishing Points !:laugh:

To tell you the truth, I also thought vanishing point was a MOVIE.

( I really thought I was gonna get crucified on this subject.)

Thanks guys !

[merv]

Back when I was young it was a movie and its the hero that dies, so take care with vanishing points fellow bikers.

[MSTRS]

:2thumbsup:2thumbsup:FANTASTIC RESPONSE GUYS .:2thumbsup:2thumbsup:

It has confirmed my faith in myself...and I have found new respect for the intelligence, the insight, the wit and bullshit alertness of YOU fellow Kiwibikers.

MSTRS, thanks for your explanation. Even with that I still haven't got a fucking clue what it means...! (and that's no disrespect to you.)
I'm just dumb, cos I've been riding for only 37 years.

CRISIS, thanks for the explanation. I now understand about Vanishing Points !:laugh:

To tell you the truth, I also thought vanishing point was a MOVIE.

( I really thought I was gonna get crucified on this subject.)

Thanks guys !

Oh, we'd never crucify you. Poke a little fun maybe...
Sorry my explanation wasn't clear enough....
Try this...
Imagine you are standing in the middle of a railway track. The rails continue in a straight line into the far distance. Things further away appear smaller, as does the gap between the left and right rail. At the point where perspective makes those rails appear to come to a point - that is the VP. Now, you start moving forward. The VP will stay the same distance ahead. Right?
Now imagine the railway track curves. As you approach the curve, the VP appears to get closer to you. Because the curve in the rails gives the impression that the 2 rails come to a point closer than they did when straight.
At speed X that 'new' VP remains a constant Y metres in front of you, whilst still curving. That speed is what I call the natural speed for that corner. If the VP gets closer to you whilst still in the corner, you have either sped up or the corner is getting tighter. Slow down, and the VP will appear to move further away from you. Or if speed hasn't changed, and the VP is getting further away, then the corner is now straightening out.

Some explanation in a different way.

But really, if you've been riding for 37 years and haven't killed yourself yet, you must be doing it right (at least for you) so why try learning something new to you? Maybe, like a lot of us long timers, you use these sort of skills without consciously being aware of it?

[Ixion]

I reckon the easiest way is to assume the 'vanishing point' is the point that you're going to vanish into the ditch. If the ditch is looking increasing more likely, you need to wind on some lean. If the ditch look less probable as you go round, you can rack on some gauntlet.

[Bonez]

I'm having differculty finding all these "!" that are sign posted letolone a point that vanishes. Could they be one and the same thing?

[Ixion]

I'm having differculty finding all these "!" that are sign posted letolone a point that vanishes. Could they be one and the same thing?

have you looked in the ditch ?

[Bonez]

have you looked in the ditch ?A few times but still couldn't find any. Tis a quandry....

[Tony W]

I reckon the easiest way is to assume the 'vanishing point' is the point that you're going to vanish into the ditch. If the ditch is looking increasing more likely, you need to wind on some lean. If the ditch look less probable as you go round, you can rack on some gauntlet.

I think CRISIS could have done with this explanation in his DR days !!:wari:

[Tony W]

Oh, we'd never crucify you. Poke a little fun maybe...
Sorry my explanation wasn't clear enough....
Try this...
Imagine you are standing in the middle of a railway track. The rails continue in a straight line into the far distance. Things further away appear smaller, as does the gap between the left and right rail. At the point where perspective makes those rails appear to come to a point - that is the VP. Now, you start moving forward. The VP will stay the same distance ahead. Right?
Now imagine the railway track curves. As you approach the curve, the VP appears to get closer to you. Because the curve in the rails gives the impression that the 2 rails come to a point closer than they did when straight.
At speed X that 'new' VP remains a constant Y metres in front of you, whilst still curving. That speed is what I call the natural speed for that corner. If the VP gets closer to you whilst still in the corner, you have either sped up or the corner is getting tighter. Slow down, and the VP will appear to move further away from you. Or if speed hasn't changed, and the VP is getting further away, then the corner is now straightening out.

Some explanation in a different way.

But really, if you've been riding for 37 years and haven't killed yourself yet, you must be doing it right (at least for you) so why try learning something new to you? Maybe, like a lot of us long timers, you use these sort of skills without consciously being aware of it?

But surely, even if you walk to a corner, the VP will get closer to you.
The only way a Vp will stay a constant DISTANCE in a corner, is either you travel in a constant radius, or come to a complete stop.

[Crisis management]

I think CRISIS could have done with this explanation in his DR days !!:wari:

Watch it, edgumication can be dangerous....I was looking at the scenery that time (or was it the time before that?)

Sully, thanks for the movie reminder, I knew it was a 440 magnum motor but couldn't remember if it was the Challenger or Charger. Tony, you should watch the movie, it's a great visual aid in understanding the theory behind (or in front of) a vanishing point.


PS when you work it out can you explain it to me?

[Tony W]

Watch it, edgumication can be dangerous....I was looking at the scenery that time (or was it the time before that?)

Sully, thanks for the movie reminder, I knew it was a 440 magnum motor but couldn't remember if it was the Challenger or Charger. Tony, you should watch the movie, it's a great visual aid in understanding the theory behind (or in front of) a vanishing point.


PS when you work it out can you explain it to me?

Hey ! I like bulldozers...

Just remember, I'm older than you, even if I do look 10 years younger...:nya:

[Crisis management]

either you travel in a constant radius, or come to a complete stop.

This, I think, is the answer (I am actually being serious)


Hey ! I like bulldozers...

Just remember, I'm older than you, even if I do look 10 years younger...:nya:

Oh God, I thought no one had noticed, I'll have to change to soy lattes and start that rejuvenating skin cream therapy.....maybe it's just the dust and the reflection off my bald pate?

[Tony W]

This, I think, is the answer (I am actually being serious)



Oh God, I thought no one had noticed, I'll have to change to soy lattes and start that rejuvenating skin cream therapy.....maybe it's just the dust and the reflection off my bald pate?

Actually, I get younger riding the DR-Z400.
Wanna swap..?:yes:

:crybaby:

[Skyryder]

Well it was a bloody good movie.


Skyyrder

[P n G]

You do realise that that doesn't work on Harleys, though, right?
wrong, counter steering works just the same on harleys

[Squiggles]

But surely, even if you walk to a corner, the VP will get closer to you.
The only way a Vp will stay a constant DISTANCE in a corner, is either you travel in a constant radius, or come to a complete stop.

Or change your speed/positioning as the corner changes radius

[Tony W]

Or change your speed/positioning as the corner changes radius

One's speed cannot physically change the radius of a corner.

[smoky]

I suspect that you have been riding for a few years, and , like me, you use it without all the complex analytical stuff that people go on about.
....one subconsciously notes some "vanishing point". But it is all automatic. ..... One just automatically winds on more lean or more throttle.

Over analysis, IMHO.

Couldn't agree more - I can identify VP, but found I already register it and make the appropriate adjustments without going thru the thought process.
But understanding it can help some newer riders I guess.

[quickbuck]

wrong, counter steering works just the same on harleys

Can you say sarcasm?

...... I knew you could.....

[Jerry74]

Can you say sarcasm?

...... I knew you could.....

more like prayer assisted steering

[mikeey01]

Would someone be kind enough to explain what this is when cornering.

I think I saw it in a bike mag once, with photos, but couldn't figure out what they were on about.

Surely anybody can see if a corner is opening up or tightening !..
or am I riding too slowly, so the point vanishes before I can get to it...!

I am now ready for my lesson...

this what you mean?
http://www.cvam-advanced-riders.co.uk/index.php?page=main.tips_roadcraft_vanishing

As MKTRS explained it, nice.

[MSTRS]

But surely, even if you walk to a corner, the VP will get closer to you.

Yes. Up to a point. After that, as you proceed into and through the corner, what was hidden by the curve will come into view at the same rate as your forward momentum. As long as the curve remains constant. If it tightens, then the VP will get closer to you. And vice versa.
I can't tell you what the ideal distance to VP is, perhaps it is different for each of us. All I know is that I do use this technique (to a certain extent) to judge what speed I do into and through a corner. Especially on unfamiliar roads - if I don't know what to expect, I need some clues before I get there. The moving VP (relative to me) is a good one.

[puddy]

Yes. Up to a point. After that, as you proceed into and through the corner, what was hidden by the curve will come into view at the same rate as your forward momentum. As long as the curve remains constant. If it tightens, then the VP will get closer to you. And vice versa.
I can't tell you what the ideal distance to VP is, perhaps it is different for each of us. All I know is that I do use this technique (to a certain extent) to judge what speed I do into and through a corner. Especially on unfamiliar roads - if I don't know what to expect, I need some clues before I get there. The moving VP (relative to me) is a good one.
FUCK! I just ride the thing (and try not to crash)!:eek5:

[yachtie10]

It was a great movie
worth watching just for the hot naked girl riding the motorbike (a great memory from my youth):bleh:

[Lucy]

. So you slow down by whatever is required to ensure that that apparent intersection remains at a constant distance. You are now at the 'natural' speed for that particular corner. )[/SIZE]

Wow, that wordy, technical and quite long explanation worked for me!

I've always had trouble with it too, but after reading that this morning I used it/thought about it today on my ride, and it all fell into place.

Thanks Mstrs!
:rockon:

[sinned]

Yes. Up to a point. After that, as you proceed into and through the corner, what was hidden by the curve will come into view at the same rate as your forward momentum. As long as the curve remains constant. If it tightens, then the VP will get closer to you. And vice versa.
I can't tell you what the ideal distance to VP is, perhaps it is different for each of us. All I know is that I do use this technique (to a certain extent) to judge what speed I do into and through a corner. Especially on unfamiliar roads - if I don't know what to expect, I need some clues before I get there. The moving VP (relative to me) is a good one.
Works for me too. On unfamiliar and non highways I don't know how else you would judge your entry speed into a corner and when, if or how much to twist the wrist by. Of course it doesn't have much application if speed is low on these roads and legal speed is kept to most highways. Thanks MSTRS - for useful posts.

[reofix]

line of sight to the vanishing point is hugely improved by NOT getting into a knee down position on the road... tilt head away from lean and enjoy the safety of an extra 20 metres visibility ahead

[Tony W]

Yes. Up to a point. After that, as you proceed into and through the corner, what was hidden by the curve will come into view at the same rate as your forward momentum. As long as the curve remains constant. If it tightens, then the VP will get closer to you. And vice versa.
I can't tell you what the ideal distance to VP is, perhaps it is different for each of us. All I know is that I do use this technique (to a certain extent) to judge what speed I do into and through a corner. Especially on unfamiliar roads - if I don't know what to expect, I need some clues before I get there. The moving VP (relative to me) is a good one.

Just got back from a ride to Wellington.

Some lovely Wairarapa backroads...

Tried to look for vanishing points conciously, but too much distraction from the art of riding.
I did note that I do look well ahead though, which is probably what "vanishing point " theory is all about.

I still have one issue with the VP doctrine, and it may just be one of semantics.

I dispute that the DISTANCE in metres, to the VP can change if you adjust your speed in the corner....UNLESS... what is meant, is that the TIME it takes to reach the VP changes as you adjust your speed in the corner.

[Tony W]

line of sight to the vanishing point is hugely improved by NOT getting into a knee down position on the road... tilt head away from lean and enjoy the safety of an extra 20 metres visibility ahead

OH YEAH !!!:2thumbsup

Now there's a fulla who knows the tricks.

I do that, the crotch-rocket guys just wouldn't have a clue !

I hear you have finally volunteered to do some landscaping in the Rainbow ??????:clap::rofl:

[reofix]

yeah right:nono:

[Sully60]

line of sight to the vanishing point is hugely improved by NOT getting into a knee down position on the road... tilt head away from lean and enjoy the safety of an extra 20 metres visibility ahead

Is that so the powdered aluminium from your valve cover dragging on the deck doesn't get in you eyes?

[MSTRS]

I dispute that the DISTANCE in metres, to the VP can change if you adjust your speed in the corner....UNLESS... what is meant, is that the TIME it takes to reach the VP changes as you adjust your speed in the corner.

You are probably correct in saying that. The distance in metres/time to reach determines your reaction time and distance covered whilst reacting.
Perhaps I perceive the VP getting closer if I speed up (but the corner remains constant in curvature) simply because I reach that VP quicker? Of course, the VP is still 'moving' ahead of me, so all an increased speed means is that I have less time before I enter unseen territory. Same is if the corner tightens. Either way I am receiving clues as to what decisions to make as regards my riding at that point.

[Tony W]

You are probably correct in saying that. The distance in metres/time to reach determines your reaction time and distance covered whilst reacting.
Perhaps I perceive the VP getting closer if I speed up (but the corner remains constant in curvature) simply because I reach that VP quicker? Of course, the VP is still 'moving' ahead of me, so all an increased speed means is that I have less time before I enter unseen territory. Same is if the corner tightens. Either way I am receiving clues as to what decisions to make as regards my riding at that point.

Now we're getting somewhere. I think I must have finally got onto the same page !

We must catch up, on a ride somewhere, soon.

Cheers.

[BMWST?]

Yep, nice post.

Not all riders are experienced so its a learning method. Basically its the "Look where you want to go, not where you are" advice. If you look at the rock face on the outside of a corner - thats what you'll hit. But if you look through/around the corner to where it goes out of sight, that is where you will steer the bike.

The Vanishing Point also stops you concentrating on the road just in front of the bike - if you do that, you won't see the corner tightening or hazards ahead in the middle distance. By looking ahead you get much earlier warning.
thats a nice explanation

[MSTRS]

For sure, Tony.
There is another sort of VP if I may raise that now. That is, the one defined by the crown of a hill. We've all had to deal with this sort at some point, especially when riding the less travelled roads.
You know the one....happily trundling along (using the VP to negotiate those unfamiliar corners, of course) and then the road rises in front of you and lo! and behold!, it disappears in an immediate downhill. Which is totally hidden whilst you are still approaching the crest. There is nothing to give you any pointers about what happens directly over the brow. These are the ones that really give me the shits. Because I have 3 choices to pick from (until I'm over the crest) and can only slow in anticipation of the road doing something dangerous. Like drop immediately into a tightening and steepening right hander...

[McDuck]

For sure, Tony.
There is another sort of VP if I may raise that now. That is, the one defined by the crown of a hill. We've all had to deal with this sort at some point, especially when riding the less travelled roads.
You know the one....happily trundling along (using the VP to negotiate those unfamiliar corners, of course) and then the road rises in front of you and lo! and behold!, it disappears in an immediate downhill. Which is totally hidden whilst you are still approaching the crest. There is nothing to give you any pointers about what happens directly over the brow. These are the ones that really give me the shits. Because I have 3 choices to pick from (until I'm over the crest) and can only slow in anticipation of the road doing something dangerous. Like drop immediately into a tightening and steepening right hander...

Is that what Youngatart went down on?

[yungatart]

No McD, it was a tightening up, steepening left hander...

[Sully60]

Is that what Youngatart went down on?

I don't know if that question is entirely suitable for this thread:oi-grr:

[yungatart]

I don't know if that question is entirely suitable for this thread:oi-grr:

Please don't worry on my account...it is well known that I only go down on roads:rolleyes:

[Sully60]

Please don't worry on my account...it is well known that I only go down on roads:rolleyes:

I knew you were a lady of standards, as you were.:)

[Tony W]

For sure, Tony.
There is another sort of VP if I may raise that now. That is, the one defined by the crown of a hill. We've all had to deal with this sort at some point, especially when riding the less travelled roads.
You know the one....happily trundling along (using the VP to negotiate those unfamiliar corners, of course) and then the road rises in front of you and lo! and behold!, it disappears in an immediate downhill. Which is totally hidden whilst you are still approaching the crest. There is nothing to give you any pointers about what happens directly over the brow. These are the ones that really give me the shits. Because I have 3 choices to pick from (until I'm over the crest) and can only slow in anticipation of the road doing something dangerous. Like drop immediately into a tightening and steepening right hander...


I adjust my speed before blind crests - enough to stop if there happens to be a tractor parked in the middle of my lane !
I apply the same rule to corners.


So, NOW I understand the basic theory of VP....

It's just a euphamism, for... PLAIN OLD COMMON SENSE.

[cowboyz]

You will be surprised how uncommon common sense is........

[nodrog]

there are various vanishing points on New Zealands roads, most of them are concerntrated on the Coromandel Peninsular. they are hard to spot, and in most cases you cant see them. the only giveaway is usually a single black skidmark leading into the bushes or a bank, with no other signs of motorcycle or rider.

[quickbuck]

You will be surprised how uncommon common sense is........

So true that....
Apparently I have to spread the bling before giving it to you again.

[GrayWolf]

wrong, counter steering works just the same on harleys

You are totaly correct mate. I see them frequently steering their way to the shop counter to buy this weeks add on, or genuine hardley ridable 'personalising accessory' just like 100,00 others have done. :innocent:

[Lucy]

Yes. Up to a point. After that, as you proceed into and through the corner, what was hidden by the curve will come into view at the same rate as your forward momentum. As long as the curve remains constant. If it tightens, then the VP will get closer to you. And vice versa.
I can't tell you what the ideal distance to VP is, perhaps it is different for each of us. All I know is that I do use this technique (to a certain extent) to judge what speed I do into and through a corner. Especially on unfamiliar roads - if I don't know what to expect, I need some clues before I get there. The moving VP (relative to me) is a good one.


Ok this has now seriously improved my riding and enjoyment of riding. On my GN I loved twisties, but I have never felt as comfortable riding the Bigger bike, and up til now, having the power has made the straight roads not boring either so I've not had to ride any. But I've been a real wuss on windy roads, which, living on the doorstep of the Parapara highway has been rather a waste.

Today, I rode to Wanganui, and using the method of keeping the VP a constant distance away, forced me to look further ahead to where I wanted to go (doh) and I swear, I actually leaned the bike again, and I'm almost certain I got my knee down....below the level of the other knee. Other benefits were: Not coming to an almost complete stop on the 35km corners, and not getting spooked by oncoming traffic if I was mid corner.

I've read about the vanishing point, and they went over it at RRRS, but I only just 'got it' from this thread.

Muchas gracias

[OutForADuck]

The VP is the bees knees (to show my age). and it means both the crest of a hill and the corner convergence as it should be taken as "as far as you can see into the distance along the path of the road.

I'm teaching my boy to drive (and ride :apint:) and he is amazed at how I can tell him when he is no longer watching the VP even if I have my eyes closed or I'm talking with someone in the back... but as soon as he takes his eyes off the VP his driving get jerkier and slower.. its instant and obvious and a great tool for getting him to think I'm a driving God :rolleyes:. Chase the VP and you'll instantly be safer, faster and smoother... keepign it up is the hard part (that's what I tell my missus anyway :clap:)

[MSTRS]

Well done, Lucy. I'm pleased that you've been able to 'get' something that helps from this thread.
People have argued for years that Counter-steering does/does not exist...no matter, if you are moving at anything over 15/20 kph then counter-steering IS happening. It is not a matter of choice. But the VP theory is another matter. Some use it, some may not...But I'd say that those who do (whether aware of it or not) ride smoother and more consistently because they are focussing on a point well ahead, thereby giving themselves more reaction time IF a problem presents ahead of them.

[ManDownUnder]

You do realise that that doesn't work on Harleys, though, right?

Steering? Quite right...

[Mikkel]

tilt head away from lean and

...screw up your weight distribution. :done:


simply because I reach that VP quicker?

Nevermind Lucky Luke being faster than his own shadow - MSTRS has caught the vanishing point! :not:

;)


You will be surprised how uncommon common sense is........

No, common sense is just not sensible. It's reason that is in short supply these days.