Melting tar

[DonaldH]

Out today up by Coatesville and foumd the roads just too covered in molten tar to be safe.

I (and a bunch of cars) were diverted around Coatesville by the police and coming back that way later on found the main road through Coatesville to be just a tar slick.

Is it just cheap road-making or just too much sun....

[dangermouse_1974]

Interesting. I was coming along the same road myself (around noon-ish from memory) and the police told me that traffic was being diverted as a bike had gone down.

No idea about the tar though. I'm originally from Queensland (in Aucks at the moment) and the temps were way hotter and I never experienced the kind of tar issues that happen all too often over here.

I agree with you though on the condition of the Coatesville - Riverhead road..it was like riding in a bloody minefield especially on the long right-hander just out of Riverhead heading towards Coatesville.

It's a shame to be glad to get home when the weather was so nice :(

[Brett]

a common summer issue. In NZ we use 2nd grade tar in our roads cause it is cheaper. It has a much lower melting point, hence in warm weather our roads turn to shit in no time at all. That tar melt is slippery shit.

[sAsLEX]

Is it just cheap road-making

Short sighted bureaucrats making their yearly budgets look good.

Fucktards.

[zadok]

I noticed this phenomenon when I was up the Coromandal a few years ago. We get +40 over here in summer and the roads seem to be ok.

[Forest]

Short sighted bureaucrats making their yearly budgets look good.

Fucktards.

The contractors and sub-contractors have more responsibility then the government does.

[Mystic13]

The level of melt seems to be relatively new. You can ride a section of older road and it's fine and then the new section is not only melting but it's had two sections where the tyres go re-laid.

Someone posted on another forum that the product produced out of Marsden has changed and the stuff that is meant to evaporate out after laying isn't and hence it melts.

Someone..... needs to get a campaign going on this. Thank goodness it is now becoming hazardous to cars. Because this makes it dangerous to a whole wider audience.

Can someone who knows about the Coatesville thing contact the media from a driver perspective?

[Trumpess]

Its not just Coatesvillle .... its a phenonomin that happens countrywide.
I agree whole heartidly, and tend to think a motorcyclists saftey is the furtherest from a burocrates mind.

[slofox]

but it's had two sections where the tyres go re-laid.

Yes...and those two relaid strips are higher than the surrounding road which makes it "interesting" if you cross onto or off them.....

[sAsLEX]

The contractors and sub-contractors have more responsibility then the government does.

Who pays the contractors and passes their work as acceptable ?

[hayd3n]

Who pays the contractors and passes their work as acceptable ?

id like to think that they got school cert or equivalent

[sinfull]

Who pays the contractors and passes their work as acceptable ?

The accountant who contracts the contracts to the subcontractors, but then he's covered by a release in his contract !

Hey i guess it's like anything these days, the temps are rising but the mix aint been reajusted to counter the melt factor ! Like Zadok said, don't have that problem in the coromandel, so does that mean they use a higher quality where the higher temps will cause melt ?

[saul]

The accountant who contracts the contracts to the subcontractors, but then he's covered by a release in his contract !

Hey i guess it's like anything these days, the temps are rising but the mix aint been reajusted to counter the melt factor ! Like Zadok said, don't have that problem in the coromandel, so does that mean they use a higher quality where the higher temps will cause melt ?

He's in Aussie bro.:sunny:

[sinfull]

He's in Aussie bro.:sunny:
Bwahahahah more fool him then, ok didn't read it proper !

[MSTRS]

If the Aussies can lay chip roads that stay 'perfect' up to and over 45 degrees, then it can be done here. I believe that the tar mix used is the same stuff (bitumen) except they use an additive that raises the melting point. Not sure of that tho. ut whatever, it is obviously more economical to have roads that turn to crap quickly and need relaying (after enough problems) than it is to do properly in the first place.

[prettybillie]

Interesting. I was coming along the same road myself (around noon-ish from memory) and the police told me that traffic was being diverted as a bike had gone down.

:(

I heard the same thing on the news last night - does anyone know any information about the riders? Are they ok?

[slofox]

I have just fired off an email to NZTA asking them for info about the level of tar melt we have here....be interesting to see if they bother to reply...stay posted for further updates, folks!!!!

[cowboyz]

having just finished a 1700km tour of the north island over the weekend in some of the hottest temps I have ever ridden in tar melt was a HUGE problem. Had to really keep your wits about you about how you took a corner. Got through it ok but at some stages our speeds dropped considerably to match the road conditions. Really un-nerving riding in conditions like that.

[varminter]

I drive the Whakatane Rotorua road twice a week. The surface over the Rotoma's was done a few month's ago, it started peeling off almost immediately. I was over that way today, they are repairing it yet again. I was behind a truck watching the top layer fly off as it passed.They need better glue. Some of the repairs round Rotoiti look like the road has been polished, shows up well with polarised lenses. As a newbie I live in fear.

[hayd3n]

ive seen roads down here with no problems get relayed ,and end up worse than they were before, and other roads which need attention and they dont get it!!:no:

[cold comfort]

this is an issue i would welcome some intelligent/informed discussion on. Vistor from Perth was stunned our roads melt at 20 deg. No doubt they will trot out the "but they don't have cold temps there" so what about Death Valley in the US? Freezing in the winter, hell in the summer. I suspect cheap shortcuts for our 3rd world roads! I too have watched new seal peel off within days of being laid.:mad:

[DonaldH]

this is an issue i would welcome some intelligent/informed discussion on. Vistor from Perth was stunned our roads melt at 20 deg. No doubt they will trot out the "but they don't have cold temps there" so what about Death Valley in the US? Freezing in the winter, hell in the summer. I suspect cheap shortcuts for our 3rd world roads! I too have watched new seal peel off within days of being laid.:mad:
Agreed - by the way does anyone know if there was a bike down at Coatsville? The tar was almost in pools.

[Paulus]

The level of melt seems to be relatively new. You can ride a section of older road and it's fine and then the new section is not only melting but it's had two sections where the tyres go re-laid.



I don't think so. This has been happening in Canterbury in summer for as long as I've been a motorcyclist (25+ years). That stuff is lethally slippery too. Transit grit it which makes it slightly less dangerous but we then have to contend with the grit as well.

Transit should spend some money asphalting some state hghways instead of planning a $3.7B tunnel in Auckland. That money would go a long way and would seriously improve road safety.

[Pedrostt500]

This time last year I was doing the Demolition of the old Shell Ashphlet plant on Burnham warf in Wellington, so had a chance to pic the brains of a shell engineer on this subject, basicaly all tar is is the left over Heavy Oil from oil refining, what is left once all the lighter oils and fuels have been removed, Hence why when you spill petrol or diesle onto tar it melts and gets slippery real fast.
the higher the melting point of tar the more of the lighter oils have been removed, some times the wrong tar is used in the wrong place, good old human error, often the tar is good for 90% of the year, and the couple of weeks of the year that we get hot weather, we end up with a sticky mess.
the likes of the American roads are offten concrete or have a 8 to 12" concrete base, some roads in Aussie are built this way to, so hence handel the greater tempreture variations better.
At the end of the day road building in NZ comes down to cost, and there is only so much cost that a population of 4 mill can afford, so hence the state of our roads right through the country.
If you want better roads import another 20 million people.

[quickbuck]

Fact:
If the contractors laid the road properly the first time, then they wouldn't have anything to do next year.

Around this area they are shockers!

Anyhow, yes, summer is the time for slippery tar.

Had an interesting ride on Saturday.
Took a little 1990 FZR250 out to give it a good run.
I took it out of Bulls to Turakina, and then through Turakina Valley road.
It was a blast. Had a moment as I come over a RH crest, and one of the farmers tractors had torn up a section of road.
I tell you, if I was younger I would have packed myself, and most likely binned it. As it was, I just rode it out.

Then turned onto Makuhou and had a great little blast. Maintained near on 100k through the whole thing.
I didn't even notice the pea gravel until I pushed it through an extra tight bit and the rear stepped out a bit.... Again, it could have been worse if I wasn't aware of what was happening.....
Thing is there was no signs warning me of either event, other than the weather has been cooking, and work has been done to repair sections of the road.
Trucks tear up roads, and spill stuff too. Well before the repair sections.

You just have to have your wits about you on country roads....

Oh, I didn't mention the sheep that was on the wrong side of the fence either... Or the slippery effluent where the mob has been moved.

A great little track none the less. Will take my pushbike next time though...
But I will do this (http://www.mapmyride.com/ride/new-zealand/bulls/656293367) insteed ;)

[cold comfort]

At the end of the day road building in NZ comes down to cost, and there is only so much cost that a population of 4 mill can afford, so hence the state of our roads right through the country.
If you want better roads import another 20 million people.[/QUOTE]

Actually, it is my understanding the govt have for years siphoned off large sums of cash taken from the motorists in the form of fuel taxes, levys, registration costs, tourism etc and diverted them to the consolidated fund. i.e funding for the roads from 4 mil people would be adequate had it been spent on roading

[MSTRS]

Actually, it is my understanding the govt have for years siphoned off large sums of cash taken from the motorists in the form of fuel taxes, levys, registration costs, tourism etc and diverted them to the consolidated fund. i.e funding for the roads from 4 mil people would be adequate had it been spent on roading

Correct. But in that case we'd have shit hospitals instead. Um...hang on....

[slofox]

I have just fired off an email to NZTA asking them for info about the level of tar melt we have here....be interesting to see if they bother to reply...stay posted for further updates, folks!!!!

Had a reply this morning......

"Thank you for your email dated 9 February 2009.

I have forwarded your email to the appropriate department.


Regards

Contact Response Team"


Any wagers on whether they will "lose" it or not?

[Ixion]

On behalf of BRONZ Ive been delving into this.

Firstly, it is , it seems, BITUMEN not TAR. Transit (who are now someone else) get very wobbly if you call it tar.

I managed to get through to a purportedly "appropriate" technical person at Transit (I'm old - I don't change).

They say they recognise there is a problem (gee, no shit Sherlock). And have done some "investigation"

She also confirmed that there are several grades of bitumen. With different melting points. She said that in the late 1990s they (Transit) widely specified the softest grades. Apparently because these are easiest to apply (thus, cheaper) and less prone to cracking (which may be a valid point in the south island). She indicated that they had now decided this was a wee mistake. But, meanwhile of course, there are many many kilometres of this crap surface out there. "What do you plan to do about that ?" "um, ah ..."

She also indicated that when a new road is laid , or a major renovation Transit specify the grade to use. But hinted that for repairs , the choice of grade is left up to the contractor. Which would explain why the "patches" are always worse.


She also said that if we noticed an area where bleeding was occurring, we should contact their regional office who would "get it fixed". Because "it is a safety issue"

She has promised to email me contact details for these regional offices. I'm still waiting but if I get them Ill post them up.

I told her "Start with the whole of SH22". She didn't know where that was :doh:. She also indicated that the "repair" consisted of spreading grit on the road. I explained the side effects of that . "Oh. ah, um yes".

Once I have these regional addresses and contacts Ill start putting some heavy words on them. I suggest others do the same in their own areas.

If anyone want the name and number of the woman I spoke to, PM me. But I think the regional offices are probably the better place to work on. Apparently they make the decisions about this sort of thing.

[cold comfort]

Thanks for that Ixion. Loose criterion coupled with substandard contracters/repairs does not surprise me. I had thought it would be a subject BRONZ could/would take issue with. Unfortunately the general motoring public seems to accept the shoddy state of the roads and i include AA in that. Have some leave coming up and will lobby some of the bureaucrats locally when i can get a moment. Mind you the council here are too currently obsessed with building an unsustainable white elephant (in the form of a stadium) to be concerned with infrastructure. They think dumping shit further out to sea is a solution to the contaminated swimming beaches being regularly closed!

[slofox]

I have just fired off an email to NZTA asking them for info about the level of tar melt we have here....be interesting to see if they bother to reply...stay posted for further updates, folks!!!!


Had a reply this morning......

"Thank you for your email dated 9 February 2009.

I have forwarded your email to the appropriate department.


Regards

Contact Response Team"




Just had a reply from the techies at NZTA. Text as follows:

"The melting, or "bleeding", of bitumen on our road surfaces is generally caused by softness in the road pavement, which allows the stone chips on the road surface to be pushed into the pavement, and the bitumen that holds them on the road rising. This softness is most often caused by water getting into the pavement, but is aggravated by heavy traffic and is more prevalent in older pavements. Your observations about the situation in Australia are correct, but they have traditionally used bitumens that are less susceptible to bleeding. This is because they do not experience the same low temperatures in winter. Otherwise, their construction techniques are very similar to ours.

We have a national programme for recycling those pavements that persistently bleed in hot weather, and we are experimenting with bitumens that melt at a higher temperature to see how they handle winter temperatures. Our observations suggest that the incidence of bleeding this year was significantly less than last year.

If you would like to discuss the issue further, feel free to contact our National Operations Manager, Dave Bates on 04 894 6296 or on dave.bates@nzta.govt.nz.

Kind regards,"

So there ya go.

[vgcspares]

Interesting. I was coming along the same road myself (around noon-ish from memory) and the police told me that traffic was being diverted as a bike had gone down.
(

sadly three bikes went down one after another on exactly the same spot ... we don't believe however that there is any likelyhood of recovery from either the council or the last contractor to work on that particular stretch

[MSTRS]

".... is more prevalent in older pavements. ..."

I would have to say "Oh, really?"
There isn't a single section of newly laid chipseal in/around Napier that hasn't bled and/or had the chip disappear.

[ckai]

I would have to say "Oh, really?"
There isn't a single section of newly laid chipseal in/around Napier that hasn't bled and/or had the chip disappear.

I would have to agree with you for the Waikato as well. It seems most of the old roads are holding find, it's the new sections that are bleeding badly.

Maybe it's because I'm riding these roads more but it seems to me this 'bleeding' business is a lot worse then other years. Kinda scares the shit out of you when you head into an uphill corner and the 'tar' is flowing downhill!

If bikers weren't such careful people, there would be a high of a lot more accidents :D

[slofox]

I would have to say "Oh, really?"
There isn't a single section of newly laid chipseal in/around Napier that hasn't bled and/or had the chip disappear.


I would have to agree with you for the Waikato as well. It seems most of the old roads are holding find, it's the new sections that are bleeding badly.

Maybe it's because I'm riding these roads more but it seems to me this 'bleeding' business is a lot worse then other years. Kinda scares the shit out of you when you head into an uphill corner and the 'tar' is flowing downhill!

If bikers weren't such careful people, there would be a high of a lot more accidents :D


Yep to both of you. I agree. Ckai, the section of SH39 between Ngaruawahia and Whatawhata was patched early this season and was a mass of melt last time I went through it. I have given that section away for the duration. Ditto for parts of the Kawhia road, Raglan road, Bucklands Road, Whitehall etc etc.
Only older roads? Bullshit.

[klingon]

... Our observations suggest that the incidence of bleeding this year was significantly less than last year...

I think it's up to us to report the bleeding bitumen whenever we find it! I wonder how systematic their observations are. I suspect they probably just count up the number of complaints they get at their call centre.

[ckai]

I think it's up to us to report the bleeding bitumen whenever we find it! I wonder how systematic their observations are. I suspect they probably just count up the number of complaints they get at their call centre.

To be honest, I never thought of reporting it. Dunno why, probably thinking that they wouldn't do anything about it. Maybe if I add "...and I f**ken crash my bike because of it" my get something done. Then again...maybe not haha

[Skyryder]

Short sighted bureaucrats making their yearly budgets look good.

Fucktards.

It's the tendering system. More profit with cheaper products. It's what we've got since rodgenomics ditched the MOW.




Skyryder

[Ixion]

That is pretty much correct.

There are various grades of compound. A contractor who tenders a cheap price to win the tender will always want to use the cheapest compound. The cheap compounds are the low melting ones. I am also told that it is common place to adulterate the bitumen compound with kerosene.

[Skyryder]

That is pretty much correct.

There are various grades of compound. A contractor who tenders a cheap price to win the tender will always want to use the cheapest compound. The cheap compounds are the low melting ones. I am also told that it is common place to adulterate the bitumen compound with kerosene.

I know someone who works in this field. Tar is a by product of producing coke by way of retort. They use something else. I see him fishing so I might make some enqiuies and see what has taken it's place.

Skyryder

[Ixion]

Bitumen. Transit as was get all hot and twisted if you call it tar. Bitumen. COmes from oil I understand. I can believe, goes back to oil readily enough too.

[MarkH]

One big problem I have is that the cheaper low quality bitumen (cheaper to surface a road with) can cost more in the long term, due to the road needing to be resurfaced when it all turns to goo - but it is done cheaply because it costs less of THIS YEARS budget. This short-sighted view can cost the tax payers more, but it keeps happening - the bureaucrats always seem to worry primarily about the current budget and take the view that repairs that would be needed in a few years are not a problem for today.

Do it right the first time vs do it within budget today (worry about the cost of fixing it later).

[munster]

but it is done cheaply because it costs less of THIS YEARS budget. This short-sighted view can cost the tax payers more, but it keeps happening - the bureaucrats always seem to worry primarily about the current budget
You would have loved the army, before end of budget every year we would get a weekend to let rip with all the left over blank & live ammo, because if we didn't use it all up this year, we wouldn't get as much next year.

It was the one weekend when all the terries turned up! :eek5:

[cold comfort]

I think it's up to us to report the bleeding bitumen whenever we find it! I wonder how systematic their observations are. I suspect they probably just count up the number of complaints they get at their call centre.

Maybe they missed the tragic death of the Henderson teacher killed by "tar bleed" according to the police.

[Pixie]

Your observations about the situation in Australia are correct, but they have traditionally used bitumens that are less susceptible to bleeding. This is because they do not experience the same low temperatures in winter. [/email].

Kind regards,"[/I]

So there ya go.

This is bullshit.
The ACT,Victoria and the NSW Highlands all get colder temperatures than most of NZ

[LBD]

Any one know why we persist with tar and gravel? I was wondering this while riding on beautiful Norwegian asphalt topped, minor, seldom used back roads. They all were lovely smooth asphalt. Colder than NZ and quite warm in Summer.

A ride around East Cape Jan gave me my first (2) front end step outs on hot tar...don't that make the sphinctor twitter

[MSTRS]

Welcome to good ol' NZ. Where the little men-who-do will tell all sorts of lies to cover the highly-obvious fact that they are fucking with lives...