Engineer bods, how can I repair my speedo drive?

[Ixion]

OK. The XT speedo drive packed a sad a while ago

Pulled it apart and found the reason. Some explanation of how it works:

It's one of this removable little round gearboxes with a worm and wheel inside. The worm drives the actual cable, but we can ignore that bit. The gear wheel (which meshes with the worm , duh) is hardened steel. It has a central bore which revolves freely on the front axle. The end of the bore forms a boss , which has one side milled to form a D section. Over this boss fits a plate, about 16 gauge, which has a central bore with a flat in it . This should be a tight fit over the D of the boss. So that the D forms a drive lug, so that the plate will drive the wheel. And the plate on it's outer circumference has two lugs that engage with similar on the road wheel hub. Clear? The hub lugs engage the plate lugs, and the D hole in the middle of the plate fits over the D shaped boss on the worm wheel and drives it. OK.

The problems was that the D shape in the centre of the plate had flogged out , to form a ragged circle. Hence, no drive, plate just spins on boss.

The boss is hardened steel. Can't drill and tap even if there was room. Don't fancy trying to weld or braze it to the wormwheel, the latter would probably crack. I think (think!) the plate can probably be welded or brazed.

I tried Araldite. (there's no reason the plate ever needs to come off the boss). That worked for a while. Now it's gone again (at any rate the speedo isn't working again). I think the problem is the plate is very thin, and both the plate and the wheel are very hard and smooth - not a good key for the Araldite, and the constant back and forth load of accelerating and braking has broken the bond.

So - how can I secure it? Only thing I can think of (apart from stronger Araldite), is to try to build up the D section of the plate again with weld or bronze, and carefully file it to shape. Not the easiest task, but doable I guess. I'd prefer something else. I'm not totally comfortable about welding the plate, it "may" be hardened. Or at least heat treated.

idea?

(Yeah, I know, try the wreckers. And Yamaha don't list the innards of the drive separately, only the complete box for megadollars)

EDIT Added pictures

No 1 is the drive plate. The sticky out lugs engage with slots in the wheel hub. The round hole in the middle should not be round. There should be a straight bit on each side
No 2 is the wormwheel. You can see the flat milled on the top. That should engage with the flat on the inside of the drive plate
No3 is the plate assembled
No 4 is ditto

[Squiggles]

what year xt?

[The Stranger]

(Yeah, I know, try the wreckers. And Yamaha don't list the innards of the drive separately, only the complete box for megadollars)

Yeah, I know you know, but what you may not know is that a whole speedo drive unit from Victoria Motorcycle Wreckers was about $25.00 landed for an old CB 400.

Sounds like a LOT of time and work for $25.00.

As you were.

[Skunk]

I'd weld it if possible. Quick and easy. Any one up 'there' able to do it for ya? Other I will if ya post it down.

[slimjim]

is there room to drill and fit small roll pin's..to lock together both plate to boss

[Ixion]

I'd weld it if possible. Quick and easy. Any one up 'there' able to do it for ya? Other I will if ya post it down.


No room to drill anything, and it'd be drilling into hardened steel. I can weld it, but I'm not keen to weld onto the wheel, cos of it being hardened and tempered. Welding the plate and reforming is possible, just take a while. I suspect that originally it was a light interference fit on the boss, so a fair closeness of tolerance is needed. But, I can do it.

yeah, wreckers. I guess. I'm a bit reluctant, firstly because whenever I buy anything from a wrecker it turns out to be : worse than the part I'm trying ; not the right model; missing something vital.

It's a 2000, but I imagine they are all the same for the same (21") size front wheel.

[The Stranger]

yeah, wreckers. I guess. I'm a bit reluctant, firstly because whenever I buy anything from a wrecker it turns out to be : worse than the part I'm trying ; not the right model; missing something vital.

It's a 2000, but I imagine they are all the same for the same (21") size front wheel.

That said, when they sent me a faulty disc and I let them know, they without hesitation dispatched me another one.
Honestly they have been excellent to deal with.

[imdying]

Considered JB Weld, bloody yanks swear by the stuff, they use it for all sorts of jobs.

[Ixion]

Hm. That's a thought. JB Weld has a good rep, maybe better than Araldite in this sort of case.Araldite ALMOST did it, so a bit more grip might be just enough. . Bling, Sir.

[pete376403]

EasyFlo or Silfos. They are both silver solders that are extremely strong and lower temp than welding or brazing.
You can use them with a propane bottle (no oxy). Plumbers supply outfits will sell it.

You could make another thin washer with the appropriate D shaped hole and silver solder this to the existing drive. Drop the thing in cold water while its still hot from the s/soldering and it will harden the steel as well

[imdying]

Can an etching point bit in the mighty dremel rough the surface up to give the epoxy a little more purchase?

[Ixion]

Added Some pcitures to the original

So far I think I like the JB Weld. It may not work, but if it doesn't it will do no damage, and a non functioning speedo is no hazard.

The other ideas could go wrong. I like to play it safe.

[Motu]

How did you manage to ruin one of those!? I've never managed to do it,and I pack mine with beach sand for grease.It would be hard to fill that with brazing - I'd use a small MIG welder and dollop some poop along the flat section,then smooth it off on a curb stone.The MIG will get in fast without too much heat,and is pretty hard itself.

[Max Preload]

Get a new one laser cut. You'd be suprised how cheap it is. And on such light gauge, fettling would be very minimal if needed at all.

You measure it, I'll draw it & DXF it.

[imdying]

Hell, just order one... it'll be here in 3 weeks, then you can spend the rest of the time drinking beer :)

If they don't have that part as a single item, I'd follow Max's advice :yes:

[Ixion]

Get a new one laser cut. You'd be suprised how cheap it is. And on such light gauge, fettling would be very minimal if needed at all.

You measure it, I'll draw it & DXF it.

Hm. That sounds interesting. But remember, I am from the open hearth and flat belt generation. This laser cutting - who would do such a thing ? Presumably it is not the sort of technology that Joe's Engineering and Tractor Clobbering Services would have ? And how cheap is cheap , approximately ?

I can measure it, the tolerances are nothing fancy .

EDIT: Gee , who'd think of looking in the Yellow Pages. North Shore Laser Cutting Ltd and Arran Lasercutting. Wonder what they do. The latter mention one offs. I'll measur e the thing tonight. And find out what DXF means

[The Pastor]

I think if its cadded up they just plug the cad file in and hit go.

[Ixion]

The cads. And where does the BLOODY HEAVY HAMMER come in?

[Skunk]

I can weld it, but I'm not keen to weld onto the wheel, cos of it being hardened and tempered. Welding the plate and reforming is possible, just take a while.I was thinking of welding the plate back to size and die grinding it to shape.

[Max Preload]

I'll measure the thing tonight. And find out what DXF means

Drawing eXchange Format. I'm not doing much in sheetmetal development these days (read none since mid last year) but I could possibly contact a couple of friends who still are that could put it in with another job going through and it'll cost nothing. Nadda. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Might have to wait a bit though until they put some through. NSLC were always good to deal with - lead times were longer but the price was always right.

Either way I'm happy to CAD it for you - scribble a sketch out - it'll take me all of 2 minutes.

[Max Preload]

Fill this in if you like, taking the inside dimensions from the machined boss.

There appears to be a slight taper on the 3 lugs but I expect they're only edge contact so it wouldn't matter a great deal. If you want to bother measuring it that's fine - easy to add. Also I expect the proximity of the flats relative to the lugs wouldn't make a difference either - after all, the driven piece spins.

[Ixion]

Thank you very much indeed. Attached image I have added the measurements. The only one that is even vaguely critical is the inside diameter where it fits on the boss. But I can fettle that to fit if needed. All the rest could be +/- 1mm even.

The taper I think is for ease of stamping the part out in the factory. The lugs are edge contact , and the drive lugs are only about the same size so the taper is irrelevant.

[Max Preload]

I only get 9.71 along the flats (chord) but what's more important is the A/F on the boss anyway. Just verify the lug height from the ID (7.37) to make sure it doesn't interfere with the hub.

I've left a 0.5mm radius on the lug tips for cosmetic and laser cutting reasons (sometime you get a burr in sharp corners) and on the root for the same reason but also to remove the stress raising that comes about from sharp corners.

2mm thick wouldn't make any tangible difference would it? The seal is in the worm drive right, not the hub?

[Ixion]

I only get 9.71 along the flats (chord) but what's more important is the A/F on the boss anyway. Just verify the lug height from the ID (7.37) to make sure it doesn't interfere with the hub.

I've left a 0.5mm radius on the lug tips for cosmetic and laser cutting reasons (sometime you get a burr in sharp corners) and on the root for the same reason but also to remove the stress raising that comes about from sharp corners.

2mm thick wouldn't make any tangible difference would it? The seal is in the worm drive right, not the hub?


Yep. Width (OD to ID) is 2.92, so 2.92 + 4.45 = 7.37. The length of the chord was hard to measure , there's not a clear start and finish.

2mm thick would be fine. Theres a washer and circlip but theres also about half a millimetre of end float anyway. 0.08 mm isn't going to make any difference at all. And the plate doesn't seal anything it just sits in there .

[gatch]

my 2c..

loctite 680, I'v used it to glue a lightly loaded pinion gear to a 1" shaft, hasn't come apart yet, mind you the loctite is really only good for about 0.2mm clearance, much more than that its not so effective..

welding the hard steel.. preheat, preheat, preheat then cool slowly.

failing all these laser cutting a new one would be mint..

i love techmology :p

[Max Preload]

I had a go cadding it up - rename it to .dxf

dont blame me if its wrong :D

And then deleted your post, but TOO LATE! :rofl:
You were close, but you entered the diameters as radii, and your dyslexia caused you to enter the OD as 31.95 not 31.59... :lol:

Here's the a good one. Same deal - rename to DXF suffix.

[The Pastor]

Close, but you entered the diameters as radii, and your dyslexia caused you to enter the OD as 31.95 not 31.59... :lol:

Here's the a good one. Same deal - rename to DXF suffix.
yeah i just realised after i put it up - then deleted hoping no one would of seen it.

damn

[Max Preload]

yeah i just realised after i put it up - then deleted hoping no one would of seen it.

damn

Someone's always lurking! :sherlock: I may be slow, but I'm rough (and expensive)!

[The Pastor]

it surprises me every day how much I hate autocad!

[Ixion]

The shape is right but either you doubled the dimensions or this software I downloaded has a bug.

[Ocean1]

it surprises me every day how much I hate autocad!

It occasionally occurs to me to wonder why anyone still uses it.

[Max Preload]

It occasionally occurs to me to wonder why anyone still uses it.

Only because it's quite literally a jack of all trades, master of none but it can be made to work for so many applications - more often than not it's let down by simple operator fault - lack of wilingness to attempt to understanding how it really works. It's getting worse in that respect - they're even gearing it for idiots with the so called 'features' that are being added with each release.

The fact is, no other software is so flexible - from plant layouts to tiny details, it can be used to convey the idea with minimal operator input. The amount of work that is required to detail even a simple silo in a parametric modelling program like Solidworks is mindblowing - you have to sort out the details before you can get a drawing of them that can be fabricated from and the chances of ever doing the same silo with minor changes again is all but non-existant. But with AutoCAD a good designer can whip one up in no time with no thought to how it might affect the model if they move a gullet for example - no problems with failed fillets etc.

But I'm rambling now. :(

[Max Preload]

The shape is right but either you doubled the dimensions or this software I downloaded has a bug.

I presume you mean Renegade's.

[Ixion]

Yes. Mr Renegade . He doubled it. Your one is fine as far as my ignorant eye can tell

So, I just put that on a memory stick, and take it into a place that does laser cutting and say "Mister, can I have one of these?" ? And they put in a puter, and a new speedo plate pops out the other end ?

The wonders of modern tehcnology. I bet they don't even have a BLOODY BIG HAMMER.

I'm sort of getting the hang of this software, must have a wee play.

Takes a shitload of puter power, but, I'll have to put it on the desktop at work. And revise the project timelines for the next few weeks.

[Ocean1]

Only because it's quite literally a jack of all trades, master of none but it can be made to work for so many applications - more often than not it's let down by simple operator fault - lack of wilingness to attempt to understanding how it really works. It's getting worse in that respect - they're even gearing it for idiots with the so called 'features' that are being added with each release.

The fact is, no other software is so flexible - from plant layouts to tiny details, it can be used to convey the idea with minimal operator input. The amount of work that is required to detail even a simple silo in a parametric modelling program like Solidworks is mindblowing - you have to sort out the details before you can get a drawing of them that can be fabricated from and the chances of ever doing the same silo with minor changes again is all but non-existant. But with AutoCAD a good designer can whip one up in no time with no thought to how it might affect the model if they move a gullet for example - no problems with failed fillets etc.

But I'm rambling now. :(

I dislike Autodesk's secondment of their product's development to their fear and loathing marketing strategy. Their development costs are exponentially larger than those required to simply create a good product because of their policies regarding redundancy, compatibility and format licencing. The tactic works to protect market share just as long as you have a certain critical mass. They no longer do, and sales have plummeted in the last few years.

It's a hardy app, I'll give it that. But comparing it to full-blown MCad apps is misleading, that's a different tool. If you want Acad flexibility in a true 3D environment without the restrictions inherent in constraints or the heavy input requirements of multiple nested pull-down menues then have a look at: http://www.rhino3d.com/

[Ocean1]

So, I just put that on a memory stick, and take it into a place that does laser cutting and say "Mister, can I have one of these?" ? And they put in a puter, and a new speedo plate pops out the other end ?

Why wouldn't you simply email it?

And ask him what the tolerances are. :yes:

[Max Preload]

Just ring them they'll tell you to email it, tell them the material (might as well make it 304 stainless or galvanised mild steel, although you can laser cut a huge range of materials - even MDF!). Leave it with them to nest on a job at their leisure with some other work of the same thickness and you might even get it done for free.

I dealt mostly with North Shore Laser Cutting and Sandvik (PRICEY!). NSLC were slower, but we were doing large stuff and supplying our own material (304 & 316 stainless mostly) and they're always busy.

I'll fire it off to some peeps tomorrow and see if they can nest it in with their next order too. Race ya! (Might not be much of a race though - don't know how much they're putting through ATM)

What's the software?


Yes. Mr Renegade . He doubled it. Your one is fine as far as my ignorant eye can tell

So, I just put that on a memory stick, and take it into a place that does laser cutting and say "Mister, can I have one of these?" ? And they put in a puter, and a new speedo plate pops out the other end ?

The wonders of modern tehcnology. I bet they don't even have a BLOODY BIG HAMMER.

I'm sort of getting the hang of this software, must have a wee play.

Takes a shitload of puter power, but, I'll have to put it on the desktop at work. And revise the project timelines for the next few weeks.

[ducatilover]

The amount of work that is required to detail even a simple silo in a parametric modelling program like Solidworks is mindblowing - you have to sort out the details before you can get a drawing of them that can be fabricated from and the chances of ever doing the same silo with minor changes again is all but non-existant. But with AutoCAD a good designer can whip one up in no time with no thought to how it might affect the model if they move a gullet for example - no problems with failed fillets etc.

But I'm rambling now. :(

my old man uses solid works better than i use toilet paper. he hates auto-cad.
but he is a tool maker and goodness knows what else

[Max Preload]

I dislike Autodesk's secondment of their product's development to their fear and loathing marketing strategy. Their development costs are exponentially larger than those required to simply create a good product because of their policies regarding redundancy, compatibility and format licencing. The tactic works to protect market share just as long as you have a certain critical mass. They no longer do, and sales have plummeted in the last few years.

It's a hardy app, I'll give it that. But comparing it to full-blown MCad apps is misleading, that's a different tool. If you want Acad flexibility in a true 3D environment without the restrictions inherent in constraints or the heavy input requirements of multiple nested pull-down menues then have a look at: http://www.rhino3d.com/

Don't get me wrong - I'm certainly no fan of Autodesk or their flakey products - it's just simply a case of it's what is used. It's flakey, overly complicated, excessively expensive and tedious to use at times, but it's everywhere. As a self-employed person, I must meet the market, and the market demands flexibility.

I've used Rhino a bit, but there's little point in wasting time learning it thoroughly simply because it's not used anywhere I've ever worked in NZ, and I've worked a lot of places.

Menus? Who uses menus? Or toolbars? Command line, all the way!

[Ocean1]

Don't get me wrong - I'm certainly no fan of Autodesk or their flakey products - it's just simply a case of it's what is used. It's flakey, overly complicated, excessively expensive and tedious to use at times, but it's everywhere. As a self-employed person, I must meet the market, and the market demands flexibility.

I've used Rhino a bit, but there's little point in wasting time learning it thoroughly simply because it's not used anywhere I've ever worked in NZ, and I've worked a lot of places.

Menus? Who uses menus? Or toolbars? Command line, all the way!

Almost any acad command works exactly the same in Rhino, there's other stuff, and a few wrinkles, but if you know acad you know most of the Rhino basics.

I'm not selling it, but I got a lot of work from other outfits wanting output from Pro E or SW or SE tidied up to CAM std. I could import almost anything, stitch up a few surface edges, delete a couple of duplicated entities, translate it to almost anything else and have it back in their inbox in minutes.

So it worked fine for me even though most of my clients and suppliers used something else. However, like any tool it's got to fit your hand eh?

[The Pastor]

The reason i hate cad is you are stuck in side all day

red line goes here

green line goes here

*****BOOM****

-eerie silence-

[FROSTY]

Ixion--back to origonal issue. looks to me it would be a shit load easier to just create from braize a couple of flats. theres fuck all stress on em