Bike vs bike crashes - why so many?

[jrandom]

Another one this morning, on one of my favourite roads (http://www.infonews.co.nz/news.cfm?l=1&t=72&id=33176).

Seriously, what the fuck? How many bike vs bike head-on crashes have we had this summer?

A bike takes up maybe a third of the space in a lane. Maybe less. And yet people, given the whole road to play in, keep riding into each other.

Even when an oncoming bike has overcooked a corner and is running wide, the innocent party should still have room to squeak by. I just don't get it. Target fixation, perhaps?

I propose a rule of thumb for anyone faced with an oncoming overcooked squid - go right.

And a rule of thumb when overcooking it - hold your line or widen out toward the edge of the road.

Visualisation is a useful training tool. Maybe if we all keep this shit in mind and plan for it to happen, we can stop plowing into each other and snuffing it.

Thoughts?

[Hitcher]

Thoughts?

Bikers are not the paragons of virtue they often claim to be. Many ride way beyond their competence, the limits of their machinery, the bounds of decency, in excess of the dictates of the prevailing road and weather conditions, and ultra vires to the Laws of Physics.

The fact that more aren't maimed or killed during the "riding season" is, I suspect, a statistical anomaly.

[ducatilover]

i agree with hitcher.
but it is sad that we have all that tarmac to ride on yet people still fuck it up :crazy::bash:

[Mully]

Mmm yes, there was also a 3 bike pile-up on the Coatesville-Riverhead Highway yesterday.

Possibly too many people thinking they are Rossi and trying (and failing) to race-apex every corner, rather than taking advantage of the plethora of quality trackdays available in which to hone their skills.

or summer weather has brought all the "born-again bikers" out to play, and their skills are rusty.

[James Deuce]

Because motorcyclists are dicks.

[MIXONE]

Is it just me or does there seem a theme of one bike overtaking cars and hitting other bikes from the other direction?
All I know is that the thought of some squid ,whose talent and common sense don't match the size of his ego, cleaning me out gives me the shits!

[slofox]

Yeah - I ride that road a bit as well......

One bike crossed the centre line huh? Lots of possibilities, but could it be, just maybe, cornering too fast?
How often do you see that out there on the highway? Far too often IMO. Saw it on Friday a little north of there, saw it Anniversary weekend coming back from Raglan...the list goes on.

I think there are a few bikers out there who need a brain transplant - or maybe that should be IMPLANT...

[Quasievil]

Because motorcyclists are dicks.

Yeah largely thats so true in many cases, they think they own the freckin road and ride it like a race track, if you want to go fast on a bike the road AINT THE PLACE TO DO IT!!!!

one reason I dont ride on the road anymore is because of this kinda behaviour, not to mention a incident I was involved in, say no more.

[James Deuce]

Is it just me or does there seem a theme of one bike overtaking cars and hitting other bikes from the other direction?
All I know is that the thought of some squid ,whose talent and common sense don't match the size of his ego, cleaning me out gives me the shits!
They're not squids though. They're invariably Cruisers with pillions.

[jrandom]

cornering too fast

Indeed.


Is it just me or does there seem a theme of one bike overtaking cars and hitting other bikes from the other direction?

Absolutely.

See, it doesn't seem to do much good to try and spread the word that it's bad do any of the above, does it?

Which is why I'm saying here, maybe we all need to do some visualisation and planning of what we'll do when there is a bike coming straight toward us on the road.

Me, I'm gonna turn right.

So I'd be much obliged to all y'all squids (or overly ambitious cruiser riders) out there if, having overcooked a left-hander and found yourself staring down the muzzle of a black GSX1400, you just fuckin' hold your line and let me handle the rest.

Ta.

[ducatilover]

i almost got plastered by a cruiser. i pulled out to pass a cage and was happily trundling past at 120 and mr fuckstain decided he would pull out 30m ahead [coming towards me]

im sure he did the on purpose, i nailed it and got just in front of said cage who was a brilliant chap and pulled left. i pulled up next to him at some lights when we got to palmy and said thank you.
does it seem like that guy was trying to run me down? i think so.:angry2:

[Quasievil]

Which is why I'm saying here, maybe we all need to do some visualisation and planning of what we'll do when there is a bike coming straight toward us on the road.





Okay which way you going to go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ9hKpsulmY

[jrandom]

Okay which way you going to go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ9hKpsulmY

Yeah, I've seen that video before.

They're riding on the other side of the road there, so by my rule, if I was the guy who got taken out by the idiot, I'd be turning left as soon as I saw him on my side of the road.

My idea is that if a rider's already overcooked it, they're probably not capable of doing anything except running wider. So I'm going inside.

Make sense?

[Quasievil]

My idea is that if a rider's already overcooked it, they're probably not capable of doing anything except running wider. So I'm going inside.

Make sense?

yeah I know mate, my point is that I doubt any plan will help bugger all given (in this case) the speed and reaction time.

In relation to "the incident" I doubt the boys did much more than go "fuck"

The speed limit is there for a reason, and applies to bikes as well for a reason, I drive my car on the basis of expecting a bike going 200 kmph coming towards me...........I allow for the stupid riders out there.

When a Bike is coming one way "fast" and another bike is going the other way "fast" a little ole dum human brain cant allow for fuck all.......it basically freezes..... if your on the wrong side of the road its game over rover

[ducatilover]

Yeah, I've seen that video before.

They're riding on the other side of the road there, so by my rule, if I was the guy who got taken out by the idiot, I'd be turning left as soon as I saw him on my side of the road.

My idea is that if a rider's already overcooked it, they're probably not capable of doing anything except running wider. So I'm going inside.

Make sense?

scary as fuck, and totaly un-naturual. but it makes complete sense

[davebullet]

Seems to me there's a group thing going on... that is 2 or more motorcycles traveling in the same direction and or pillion passengers involved.

What I think is:
a) The front rider is too concerned with what the other riders are doing and not looking ahead enough (or ego pushing them to ride faster)
b) the rider at the back is focussing too much on the rider in front and not taking in surrounding hazards
c) pillion distraction

I don't have the stats to back up the hunch unfortunately.

[jrandom]

In relation to "the incident" I doubt the boys did much more than go "fuck"

Yeah. That wasn't an 'overcooking and running wide' situation, though, was it; it was a 'committing to an overtake around a blind corner' situation.

I'd definitely agree that sometimes it's quite possible to make a riding decision that puts you past the point where anything's salvagable.


When a Bike is coming one way "fast" and another bike is going the other way "fast" a little ole dum human brain cant allow for fuck all.......it basically freezes..... if your on the wrong side of the road its game over rover

Yup, that's true.

I'm just gonna do whatever I can within the limitations of physics and reaction time.

And that's simply gonna be - turn right.

That video you posted is a shocker; you can clearly see both the rider with the camera and the one he runs into just freeze up. There was heaps of time and space there to avoid the crash, and both bikes were basically upright when they hit.

Sad.

So I'm saying, let's visualise and prepare for that situation on the road - a quarter of a second less "huh?" time might save our arses.

[The Stranger]

A bike takes up maybe a third of the space in a lane. Maybe less. And yet people, given the whole road to play in, keep riding into each other.


Not so sure it's that easy in every case.
If you are entering a blind left hander, committed to a line and you find someone else coming at you on your line perhaps at a closing speed of 200kph how much time do you have to react and correct?

[Ixion]

I agree with the random gentleman . I queried this in another thread. Maybe 4 or 5 times in my riding career I have been confronted by the "vehicle coming out of a corner on my side of the road". In each case I have managed to avoid it. Only one was a bike though, but logically a bike should be easier, being narrower. After all , almost any road is wide enough for one car, and two bikes side by side.

I'm not so sure about the swerve right though. OK if there is nothing alongside the errant bike. But if there are bike and car side by side, going right will probably take you into t he car.

My suspicion is that most riders stupid enough to precipitate such a situation won't have a clue what to do and will either freeze on their present line, or hit the brakes . I'd go left, by default. But obviously every situation is different: one must make the call on the day.

[jrandom]

If you are entering a blind left hander, committed to a line and you find someone else coming at you on your line perhaps at a closing speed of 200kph how much time do you have to react and correct?

Probably about 500ms, which should be enough. A typical reaction time of 200ms, followed by 300ms of steering away from the oncoming bike as quickly as possible.

Personally, I'll just take whatever I can get and work with it however I can.

And I figure that expecting this shit to happen and pre-planning my response will shave precious tenths of seconds off the reaction and decision time and put them in the steering time.


What I think is:
a) The front rider is too concerned with what the other riders are doing and not looking ahead enough (or ego pushing them to ride faster)
b) the rider at the back is focussing too much on the rider in front and not taking in surrounding hazards
c) pillion distraction

All quite probable causes, and good points made.

But that's not what I started this thread to discuss.

I have zero hope of actually stopping idiots from crossing the centerline. They do it, end of story. We can probably assume that anyone reading this thread and thinking about it probably doesn't ride like that, so there's no point carrying on about how bad it is to cross centerlines.

What I want to do here is come up with (and share) a plan for dealing with those idiots when they're riding toward me.

[prettybillie]

Mmm yes, there was also a 3 bike pile-up on the Coatesville-Riverhead Highway yesterday.

Possibly too many people thinking they are Rossi and trying (and failing) to race-apex every corner, rather than taking advantage of the plethora of quality trackdays available in which to hone their skills.

or summer weather has brought all the "born-again bikers" out to play, and their skills are rusty.

There has not been a lot of coverage of this crash - does anyone know who the riders are and are they okay?

[Hitcher]

There has not been a lot of coverage of this crash - does anyone know who the riders are and are they okay?

I hope that this doesn't become yet another "biker down" thread.

[jrandom]

But if there are bike and car side by side, going right will probably take you into t he car.

Mmyes.

That situation's a bit different, too, because the oncoming bike hasn't forced itself right - it's been intentionally steered onto the other side of the road to go around the car.

So you can probably assume that the rider retains more control of their line.

I agree that if it's an oncoming bike-overtaking-a-car situation, going left is a better option. Going right is more appropriate for the overcooked-squid scenario.

[Brian d marge]

If your are riding to the conditions , and with a good position on the road , there aint going to be a problem , ( unless they leap out off the sky ....

These 40 + just bought a bike ( had a Honda 50 when I was a lad ) , scare the nuts of me as well , ..

The Government , will do something if it cost em money ,,,so be prepared and there is no point complaining after the fact ,,,,


We as a group should take more responsibility, Bike shops should give/instist /beg the older rider to take a advanced course ,,, and we as a group , shoud try and kull the testoterone ,,

Im with J on this one . WTF !


Stephen

[Hitcher]

Probably about 500ms, which should be enough. A typical reaction time of 200ms, followed by 300ms of steering away from the oncoming bike as quickly as possible.

Steering one's bike directly in front of another coming directly at you which is piloted by a Certified Idiot(TM) seems like an intrinsically dodgy thing to do. Mind you I suppose I may have been beaten to a pulp once too often by an irate soccer coach as a youth for passing the ball across the face of my own goal to be qualified to make a sensible contribution on this matter.

[jrandom]

There has not been a lot of coverage of this crash - does anyone know who the riders are and are they okay?

No, nobody has a clue, and I won't say that we don't care, but I will politely ask you to not ask such things again in this thread, OK? I want it on topic.

[ManDownUnder]

Surely the go right rule is simply expressing "look at the gap", or "look at where you want to go, not the thing that'll hit you"... etc (all of which I agree with of course).

The difference is that looking for the gap, and hitting what you look at (i.e. the gap!) gives you more options in case they're appropriate as opposed to a blanket "turn right!". You do what you practice and if what you practice puts you under a truck then I'm against it.

I say learn and do it right first time - even though it's a bit harder. I think the extra time will be well worth it.

[jrandom]

Steering one's bike directly in front of another coming directly at you which is piloted by a Certified Idiot(TM) seems like an intrinsically dodgy thing to do.

Well, yes. I admit that turning right in that scenario is counter-intuitive. But often, on a motorcycle, the counter-intuitive action is the action that will save your life.

And I can't find a hole in the logic.

Although Ixion's point regarding the oncoming bike-overtaking-a-car situation is well founded. In that case, I think, it's better to go left.

[Beemer]

Yeah, I've seen that video before.

They're riding on the other side of the road there, so by my rule, if I was the guy who got taken out by the idiot, I'd be turning left as soon as I saw him on my side of the road.

My idea is that if a rider's already overcooked it, they're probably not capable of doing anything except running wider. So I'm going inside.

Make sense?

Hope like hell it works for you. A mate lost his leg in a bike accident many years ago - an oncoming car overtook another car and he couldn't move to the right as the car that was being overtaken was there. I can't remember the full details but think there were parked cars on his left so he couldn't move there either. The overtaking car then pulled back into his own lane, clipping my mate as he did so, and tearing his leg off at the hip.

If it hadn't been for the fact he came off near an off-duty doctor's place, he would have bled to death before the ambulance arrived.

Whoever said motorcyclists are dicks was right - a large number of them do fall into that category. I am often called a wuss because I don't ride much on the road any more but it's because I get sick of the behaviour of some riders and motorists.

[peasea]

I agree with the random gentleman . I queried this in another thread. Maybe 4 or 5 times in my riding career I have been confronted by the "vehicle coming out of a corner on my side of the road". In each case I have managed to avoid it. Only one was a bike though, but logically a bike should be easier, being narrower. After all , almost any road is wide enough for one car, and two bikes side by side.

I'm not so sure about the swerve right though. OK if there is nothing alongside the errant bike. But if there are bike and car side by side, going right will probably take you into t he car.

My suspicion is that most riders stupid enough to precipitate such a situation won't have a clue what to do and will either freeze on their present line, or hit the brakes . I'd go left, by default. But obviously every situation is different: one must make the call on the day.

Unfortunately the missus and I have come across both bikes and cars in our lane on a couple of occasions. However, we tend to ride within our limitations (and that of our machines) meaning that we tend to be well inside our lane 99% of the time, leaving a fair slice of our lane for oncoming jerkoffs. My lady often gets ahead of me in the twisties (she having a Sporty while I ride a Dubya-G) but trying to catch a more nimble machine is not only fruitless it's dangerous. I like being alive and I like my paintjob, why screw everything for a minute or two off the trip or to gain some lame bragging right at the next stop?

The last time I made it into the opposing lane was in pissing rain heading for Hanmer Springs and on a gentle left-hander we encountered a major fuel spill. I stayed upright but I was well over the centreline. Nothing coming the other way but plenty was landing in jmy jocks.

You're right, just about every situation is different and you don't get to be an old biker by being a fuckwit all the time.

[Squiggles]

Too many riding beyond their capabilities. There is never a need to cross the centreline.

[jrandom]

Surely the go right rule is simply expressing "look at the gap"

No, it's not.

I'm moving past that, and assuming that the people reading this thread know how to ride their motorcycles, and don't need to be taught to suck eggs with "look where you want to go" admonitions.

Thing is, in these situations, there's a gap on both sides.

So, in my visualisation now, if there's no oncoming car in the mix, I go inside, to the right.

If there's an oncoming car that's being overtaken by the bike in my way, I go outside, to the left.

The act of visualisation is the important part, I think.

And I know that sometimes, one can be in a situation where the only choice is to bend over, put one's head between one's legs, and kiss one's arse goodbye.

But I suspect that that will only be true for a minority of oncoming-bike cases.

[Ixion]

Mmyes.

That situation's a bit different, too, because the oncoming bike hasn't forced itself right - it's been intentionally steered onto the other side of the road to go around the car.

So you can probably assume that the rider retains more control of their line.

I agree that if it's an oncoming bike-overtaking-a-car situation, going left is a better option. Going right is more appropriate for the overcooked-squid scenario.

Agreed, with the squidly thing. One can postulate that if he knew HOW to get back to his left (ie your right), he wouldn't be on the wrong side of the road in the first place. So he's not going there, which means you may as well. But be sure there isn't another bike close behind him! Such squids often hunt in packs. or be prepared to swing hard left as soon as you are round him.

One needs to consider the degree of things too. On a few occasions I have found myself just to the left of the centre line, setting up for a left hander. And found another bike coming round the corner, also hard on the centre line , as he apexes his right hander. In each case, I jinked left he loosened his line (given that his course was taking him back to his side anyway) and all was well.

It really does depend on the circumstances. But it is amazing how fast ones mind can work in such circumstances. It all comes down to the old rules, expect the unexpected, and go where the danger isn't. Actually I'm even wondering if this could be one of the very very rare situations where the old canard about "laying it down" might be valid. If there is nowhere else to go, do you have a better chance sliding than head on ?

[peasea]

Hope like hell it works for you. A mate lost his leg in a bike accident many years ago - an oncoming car overtook another car and he couldn't move to the right as the car that was being overtaken was there. I can't remember the full details but think there were parked cars on his left so he couldn't move there either. The overtaking car then pulled back into his own lane, clipping my mate as he did so, and tearing his leg off at the hip.

If it hadn't been for the fact he came off near an off-duty doctor's place, he would have bled to death before the ambulance arrived.

Whoever said motorcyclists are dicks was right - a large number of them do fall into that category. I am often called a wuss because I don't ride much on the road any more but it's because I get sick of the behaviour of some riders and motorists.

Gotta say, I am in partial agreement. There are more than just a few riders out there who desperately need a bash on occasion. Poker runs that take in five pubs don't help.

[R6_kid]

While I can understand your sentiment jrandom, i dont think this would work so well in the real world. In that particular video the rider who fucked up had enough time to save the day, but looks to have target fixated on the R1.

With maritime and aviation the rule is as you've stated, if in doubt turn right (starboard), that is what every pilot/skipper/captain needs to know in order to operate their vessel.

On the road it's different, you'll be playing with statistics when you make your decision. x times out y riders go right, z times out of y they do nothing etc etc.

Truth is, the reason we don't have these rules in place is because the rules that are in place, if abided by, are meant to stop these situations from coming up in the first place.

I think the only thing that you can apply in this situation is to make a decision early and stick to it. If you've screwed up, take the hit and run yourself off the road, dont' try to correct your mistake and put yourself in the other riders path - they dont deserve to die because of your cock up.

[rastuscat]

I was riding through Lewis Pass at the weekend, waiting to overtake a slow moving cage in the twisties.

A line of bikes came the other way, waved to them all and they waved back. All had headlights on.

The cage moved left, and as I was about to pull out to pass a twat on a bike came the other way with no headlight, black helmet, black jacket etc. Bloody hard to see in a tree covered, shaded highway.

It would have been my fault if we had head onned, but is makes me wonder why people ride bikes while making every effort not to be seen.
:bash:

[peasea]

But it is amazing how fast ones mind can work in such circumstances.

And your sphincter............

[pritch]

They're not squids though. They're invariably Cruisers with pillions.

Actually that isn't so wide of the mark. On my last solo trip along SH43 I had several times to move out of the way of bikes on my side of the road. Most were cruisers. They were in groups, they had seen me, so I guess they were operating under the well known road rule, "God favours the big battalions".

I have to temper my condemnation of their behaviour to some extent though as sometimes having arrived at a corner too hot I may be rather wider than would be prudent... I'm working on this :yes:

[Maha]

I have seen some god awful decisions made at times Dan, ones that make me back off and sit up and even raise both my hands. Its horrifying to think that 3-4-5 seconds can command whereupon you live or die.

[jrandom]

... it is amazing how fast ones mind can work in such circumstances.

Ain't that the truth.

Case in point. PMCC round 1. Clubmans and the motards were started together, with a 15-second gap (motards went off first).

In Race 2, one of the motards stalled on the start line, right in front of the Clubmans field. He attempted to kick-start his bike a few times, and then hopped off and pushed it off the track, allowing the Clubmans flag to drop.

Sitting on the second row of the Clubmans grid, I was huffing and getting annoyed, and would have sworn after the race that he spent a full 45 seconds or so faffing about on the track there.

But when I saw BIGBOSSMAN's footage of that race start later on, that motard was on the track in front of the Clubmans grid for less than ten seconds.

Serious time dilation. It was spooky. And Biggles08, sitting right in front of me on that grid, reported exactly the same amazement when he saw the video.

[scracha]

There has not been a lot of coverage of this crash - does anyone know who the riders are and are they okay?

Yes..... No

[jrandom]

While I can understand your sentiment jrandom, i dont think this would work so well in the real world.

*shrug*

Do whatever you think works, hey.

What I would like people to take away from this thread, I think, is the idea that, regardless of the actual approach they take to the situation, visualisation before the fact is a tool that might save their arses.

[Nasty]

You know I have read the thread and its interesting .. cos believe it or not all this theory and crap goes right out the window when it happens - in that .002 seconds you have to react.

How do I know .. my sister and her partner (dec) were hit head on by another bike 18 years ago this year.

It really doesn't matter how you work it out, if you can't do it in the flash of a moment you risk ending up like her partner, even given that he had literally nowhere to go ... no room on the left and the bike was on his right ... he whiteknuckled and lost a leg (and his life) and her leg got ripped at the knee .. they managed to save it ... but the cost to her cannot ever be accounted for.

[GOPSTER]

I agree with J having these ideas in the head will help speed up reaction times. But i would just be getting out of the way any which way i could. If its right to get round them or if thats not possible left off the road. The way is see it is that a 100km/h crash is better than a 200km/h crash.

Obviously no crashing would be best.

[ManDownUnder]

Thing is, in these situations, there's a gap on both sides.

Gotcha... that's where I either misunderstood or perhaps read more into it.

I had an image in mind of mee (personally) being reasonably on the edge too (let's say leaning left) in which case going further left isn't an option, maintaining my line isn't either for head on crash reasons... in which case go right would be a reasonably sound decision... all other things being reasonable.

If go left is an option too then hell... weigh up the options and take the best one. I still don't see the value in advise that says go right by default. I still say fixate on the gap and go there.

[jrandom]

You know I have read the thread and its interesting .. cos believe it or not all this theory and crap goes right out the window when it happens - in that .002 seconds you have to react.

Like I said earlier, it's more like .5 seconds. Think about it. Visualise it. In full-focus time-dilated mode, that's an eternity.


he had literally nowhere to go ...

Maybe. Maybe not. As you say, it was a long time ago. I wouldn't want to draw any fatalistic conclusions from the memory of it.


he whiteknuckled

Mm, indeed, and now we get to the nub of the matter - the rider's reaction.

If you genuinely don't think you have a hope of handling such situations, then don't ride on the road. Nobody will blame you for that.

But, as Ixion and others have said, this has in fact happened many a time, and been dealt with without crashes. And the simple physics of these situations do not always imply that bikes have to hit each other.

[James Deuce]

I think my signature says it all.

[BMWST?]

its also a fact that bikes(and cruiser prolly more so) are NOT manouverable at speed....you guys are SERIOUSLY making me reconsider getting a another bike(40 plus RR)

[The Stranger]

Probably about 500ms, which should be enough. A typical reaction time of 200ms, followed by 300ms of steering away from the oncoming bike as quickly as possible.



Hmm casting about in the source of all knowlege I find times varying from 0.7 for an expected event to 1.5 for a totally unexpected event. Your super human self aside, the rest of us may be in the poo I fear.

[jrandom]

I think my signature says it all.

I don't think it says it all, Jim. Fatalism can be... fatal.

[jrandom]

Hmm casting about in the source of all knowlege I find times varying from 0.7 for an expected event to 1.5 for a totally unexpected event.

Y'reckon (http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm#Type%20of%20Stimulus)?

I'd quite like to bring the 'oncoming bike' scenario down into the 'expected event' category, too. It certainly seems to be happening often enough that it should be.

[Waxxa]

How many solo bike accidents since Xmas? And how many have been multi-bike accidents? It's making bad reading folks!
Egos, impatience, lack of skills and showing off to friends or partners I feel is the cause of the 'brain-fade' and leads to the making of wrong decisions.
2cents

[3umph]

the worst part with reaction times is that it means nothing because the majority of people when you are watching the other bike, car, tree or anything else that is going to hit you or what you are going to hit it then draws you into that object making an impact basicly a sure thing to happen. You go where you are watching...

Split second actions and reactions can and have saved accidents happening but to the majority of people most do not process and react quick enough.

[Squiggles]

I was riding through Lewis Pass at the weekend, waiting to overtake a slow moving cage in the twisties.

A line of bikes came the other way, waved to them all and they waved back. All had headlights on.

The cage moved left, and as I was about to pull out to pass a twat on a bike came the other way with no headlight, black helmet, black jacket etc. Bloody hard to see in a tree covered, shaded highway.

It would have been my fault if we had head onned, but is makes me wonder why people ride bikes while making every effort not to be seen.
:bash:

The other day i was driving along in my cage, and i turned across the path of a bike, he had to brake hard and tooted. Its his fault for not wearing a hi-vis vest, having H4-plus bulbs, and going too fast.

Get my point? You were attempting to pass in an area where you could not clearly see the 100m ahead. This is the begining of what causes an accident...

[slofox]

Back in the day, as a Psychology student, I did a lot of work on reaction times. A fast "Expected Event" reaction time (visual reaction) was typically around 300ms...I could get mine down to the low 200's but then I was exceptional (wired, mostly, actually) in those days (cough cough). This, incidentally, was with persons in late teens to early twenties. Reaction time slows as we age. So I think a typical reaction time for the kind of event we are speaking of here would be in the range of 500ms 'cause it is NOT as "expected" as when you are waiting for a light to flash.
Why do you think the road code speaks of the "two second rule"?

I would rather err on the side of caution...

[SPman]

I have done the "dive to the right" thing once........however it was on a straight rd in a 50 k zone and the opposing vehicle was a mate in a Model A Ford............(it was a while ago). The look on his face as I passed on the other side of the road was priceless, but ..........

Like Mr Random, I have thought the same thing in relation to modern times, speeds and machinery..

The greatest fear is that, tightening right, the oncoming driver/rider goes "omigod" and instinctively tightens left.............I guess it all depends on circumstances as to what (if anything) you can do and, ultimately, blind luck.

[Squiggles]

Y'reckon (http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm#Type%20of%20Stimulus)?

I'd quite like to bring the 'oncoming bike' scenario down into the 'expected event' category, too. It certainly seems to be happening often enough that it should be.

It should be expected, would you ride scenic drive and to piha without expecting a 4wd to cut a corner?

[James Deuce]

I don't think it says it all, Jim. Fatalism can be... fatal.
It's not fatalism.

The situations you are discussing would phase most professional racers, people accustomed to significantly higher speeds and odd events happening at those speeds than most road riders or club racers. You're talking about a fast approaching accident at closing speeds of anywhere from 180km/hr to 480 km/hr. 500m goes by during your reaction time at thos peeds, even if you pulled off the superhuman "I knew that was going to happen", no fixation, as fast as humanly possible 700ms response time, plus the steering input of about the same length of time make enough of a difference to direction to actually miss.

The root of the problem is the sheer, utter, arrogance of motorcyclists. They don't care about you, they don't care about themselves (apart from the adrenalin fix), and in the case of the Cruiser chaps they appear to be trying to impress their wives of 20 years or more. I've news for you chaps. They were impressed enough to marry you, just, but it's been all downhill since then.

[Ixion]

*shrug*

Do whatever you think works, hey.

What I would like people to take away from this thread, I think, is the idea that, regardless of the actual approach they take to the situation, visualisation before the fact is a tool that might save their arses.

This really is very very important. The reason that bikes involved in head ons with each other don't take evasive action is often because of the "WTF - this can't happening" reaction.

When confronted with something that we believe just should not be, our minds tend to lock up. This can be prevented by pre-visualising.

Regularly, on corners and such, put the picture into your minds eye of a car/SUV/bike dead in front of you when you come into the corner. Don't actually do anything, just visualise the possibility. (I usually use the memorised image of the last vehicle that went by). And think of what possibilities there are. Then when the situation really does occur (and sooner or later, it will) , instead of freezing with a "WTF - no this isn't right" reaction, you will at least do SOMETHING.



ts also a fact that bikes(and cruiser prolly more so) are NOT manouverable at speed....you guys are SERIOUSLY making me reconsider getting a another bike(40 plus RR)


I disagree. Bikes are at least as manoeverable as cars. Just needs different inputs.

[The Stranger]

Y'reckon (http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm#Type%20of%20Stimulus)?

I'd quite like to bring the 'oncoming bike' scenario down into the 'expected event' category, too. It certainly seems to be happening often enough that it should be.

Yes. (http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/reactiontime.html)
I think it fair to class it as unexpected and as a choice reaction - as the standard choice (brakes) would likely result in an accident anyway. I also think it fair to include the time to decide and effect a reaction in the context of a vehicle (not pressing a key in a lab), as without those elements the outcome is still an accident.

[imdying]

My idea is that if a rider's already overcooked it, they're probably not capable of doing anything except running wider. So I'm going inside.

Make sense?Right up to the point where you clean up his mate who's not too far back, and still on the correct line.

[Nasty]

Like I said earlier, it's more like .5 seconds. Think about it. Visualise it. In full-focus time-dilated mode, that's an eternity.



Maybe. Maybe not. As you say, it was a long time ago. I wouldn't want to draw any fatalistic conclusions from the memory of it.



Mm, indeed, and now we get to the nub of the matter - the rider's reaction.

If you genuinely don't think you have a hope of handling such situations, then don't ride on the road. Nobody will blame you for that.

But, as Ixion and others have said, this has in fact happened many a time, and been dealt with without crashes. And the simple physics of these situations do not always imply that bikes have to hit each other.


Pity you never bothered to ask questions .. you might have learnt something ... real life vs you .. I take real life .. and yes my sister was on the back .. and did know ..and saw it all ... and thirteen years later I got my license - so I dont' have a problem being on the road - that particular road I do ... many many people have died on it, and not only on bikes.

I think that you have not been in this situation ... I agree that it doesn't always have to lead to a head on ... but also I think you are too closed-minded to listen to anyone else ... hence quoting and replying and putting down anyone else. Enough said really.

[vifferman]

Assuming that faced with a bike-to-bike head-on crash, the other person is going to go "OMIGOD! WTF!" and continue on without swerving left again, may be fairly reasonable. But (however!) if you have decided that in that situation you are going to dive right, and 'programmed' yourself to do so, is that going to mean that you are likely to sometimes/often/mostly choose the worst option? Wottif?
Wottif the other person isn't totally target fixated or frozen in fear and dives left (straight at you) not expecting you to be going right?
Wottif you successfully avoid them by diving right, but now you're on the wrong side of the road, with their following traffic barrelling towards you at 200km/h+?

Is it possible to practise (mentally and/or physically) choosing and taking the best option of several when faced with this sort of thing?

I understand what you're getting at, but I wonder at the wisdom of (a) deciding in advance what you're going to do, and (b) choosing a course of action that goes against that most basic of governing rules, "Keep left cunts!" (as Finn would have it). Yes, the fact that both of you are already NOT left means the situation's already not normal, but I am concerned at advocation of something that in some circumstances could make things more worserer.

[jrandom]

I agree that it doesn't always have to lead to a head on ...

Well then, I'm glad we agree!


also I think you are too closed-minded to listen to anyone else ... hence quoting and replying and putting down anyone else.

Thank you for your input.

:doobey:

[merv]

I told you on the other thread its that vanishing point problem. All the heroes go splat at that point.

[vifferman]

its also a fact that bikes(and cruiser prolly more so) are NOT manouverable at speed....
Seriously?
So... what about all those motorcycle races? Are those riders not "manouevering at speed"?


you guys are SERIOUSLY making me reconsider getting a another bike(40 plus RR)
Make no mistake - motorcyling is more dangerous than driving a car. Don't enter (or re-enter) into it lightly. :no:

[Squiggles]

I understand what you're getting at, but I wonder at the wisdom of (a) deciding in advance what you're going to do, and (b) choosing a course of action that goes against that most basic of governing rules, "Keep left cunts!" (as Finn would have it). Yes, the fact that both of you are already NOT left means the situation's already not normal, but I am concerned at advocation of something that in some circumstances could make things more worserer.

As you've pointed out, if the situation arises, its going to be mostly down to luck. The question is why? Why are riders appearing on the wrong side of the road, and what can we do about it... As sick as it may be, i can hear some calling for central median barriers. (And there is logic to those calls)

[BMWST?]

Seriously?
So... what about all those motorcycle races? Are those riders not "manouevering at speed"?

Make no mistake - motorcyling is more dangerous than driving a car. Don't enter (or re-enter) into it lightly. :no:

the gyro forces at high speeds make motorcycles much less manouverable at "high speeds".A car can make much more drastic change of direction at say 110 or 120 than a bike,unless its a suv of course,they will rollover

[Ixion]

the gyro forces at high speeds make motorcycles much less manouverable at "high speeds".A car can make much more drastic change of direction at say 110 or 120 than a bike,unless its a suv of course,they will rollover


I am strongly tempted to a bit of micheal extraction, but as this is a serious topic , I will, by a mighty and valiant effort, restrict myself simply to saying that you are seriously mistaken. Unless by 'drastic change of direction' you mean something like a handbrake turn.

[R6_kid]

visualisation before the fact is a tool that might save their arses.

Agreed on that point, in the same way that 'you always do what you've always done'.

[discotex]

I'm currently around 50/50 cars vs bikes for the "evasive action taken to avoid someone in my lane" scenario (not including a wheel just over the line).

Pretty shocking odds given the number of bikes on the road vs cars.

I've always taken to assuming a bike is coming at speed when evaluating if I can pass a cage on a short straight. More often than not I'd appear to be slightly over cautious but it's probably saved half a dozen near misses had I pulled out.

I believe if you late apex you'll have a better chance of seeing what's going on and hopefully be in the wrong part of the road to get hit in the first place (for both overtaking and squid scenarios).

[shafty]

...and great point Ixion, about visualising a vehicle appearing straight in front of you - NOT what you would do, but just so you recognise the situation quicker.

On a Rider Training course I went on, we were asked the same question - what would we do if confronted by a vehicle coming head on. It created some interesting discussion. Evidentally, the most common reaction of the oncoming (ie offending) driver, is to brake hard as soon as they realise where they are/the situation they are in. The second most common reaction is to violently pull their vehicle back in to their lane.

Depends I guess at what point they "realise" whats going on. I'm thinking someone dropping their (15th) beer can and reaching for it - they may "clean you up" before realising they are on the wrong side of the road. Don't even think about methamphetamine etc etc

And covering 56 metres a second at 200 km/hr combined speed, how many seconds do you give them, - even if you had any to spare?

The other thing I learn't at said course, was the "practised reaction" is the most likely one you will use in the case of the manure hitting the rotating cooling device.

For example, if you practise counter steering regularly, you will more than likely countersteer around an obstacle without the need to consciously think it through. That could just save your bacon when the time comes.

A good case for practising full on emergency stops regularly, so some of the panic is eliminated. As an aside, the ABS on the Pan Euro definitely saved my life on it's maiden voyage when a sub-life drove his car out of the forest into my path in the torrential rain - while staring me in the face laughing.

I'll put my hand up to riding like a Pussy. Being a wuss has helped me to still be alive after 34 years riding and appreciating every ride I return from as a successful one.

I've cranked the Orient Express up to 200 on a very quiet straight road with good visibility, but realistically at that speed, if a dog ran out, my reactions may not be up to scratch.


Once again Jrandom - good topic. Ride SAFE Folks.

Shafty

[James Deuce]

Ride SAFE Folks.



That's technically impossible and a passive approach to riding. You need to be in charge and empowered with as much skill and practice as you can be.

There's no such things as safe, never assume that you are and never use that mantra to prop up your ego.

You aren't safe on a bike. It's one of the reasons why I ride.

[carbonhed]

... Evidentally, the most common reaction of the oncoming (ie offending) driver, is to brake hard as soon as they realise where they are/the situation they are in. The second most common reaction is to violently pull their vehicle back in to their lane.



From my experience racing road cycles over places like the Akatarawa's that reaction occurs for both parties involved. When suddenly confronted with a car on your side of the road you either steered round it and survived or you braked and got hurt... trouble is that first instinctive panic reaction is pretty much hardwired to the individual and would be a bastard to change.

So are you a steerer or a braker? :shit:

[Ixion]

This is the classic "cager riding a bike" mistake. Grab the brakes, now you can't dodge, so all you can do is wait for the bang. People used to driving cars do it, because in a car you can't manoeuvre as quickly as on a bike, so you don't have any other choice.

Bike, dodge. (Almost) anything is better than a head on.

[pritch]

So are you a steerer or a braker?

On the two most recent occasions, both at the same time.
How does that affect the theory?
(Other than that steering with the front brake on makes you turn faster :whistle:)

[Motu]

On a few occasions I have found myself just to the left of the centre line, setting up for a left hander. And found another bike coming round the corner, also hard on the centre line , as he apexes his right hander. In each case, I jinked left he loosened his line (given that his course was taking him back to his side anyway) and all was well.

Actually I'm even wondering if this could be one of the very very rare situations where the old canard about "laying it down" might be valid. If there is nowhere else to go, do you have a better chance sliding than head on ?

The only times I've meet another bike coming the other way in my lane is on left handers - last year,in one day,on the same corner (SH22),TWICE!

I think the ''laying it down'' is possibly appropriate - your bike between theirs and you,and taking their bike out from under them.

Reinforces my desire to ride roads squids and cruiser riders stay away from.I can handle stray stock,farmers utes and tractors....

[ducatilover]

The only times I've meet another bike coming the other way in my lane is on left handers - last year,in one day,on the same corner (SH22),TWICE!

I think the ''laying it down'' is possibly appropriate - your bike between theirs and you,and taking their bike out from under them.

hope full you are in the left hander tight enough not to get hit by a twat.

i personally never put my head over the centre line in right handers either.

[Mikkel]

scary as fuck, and totaly un-naturual.

Which is also why you aren't likely to pull it off. When you get shocked you're most likely to react in a natural manner. Now, I doubt any amount of off-the-bike mental priming is going to make you choose the un-natural option in the situation where you don't actually have any time to analyse the situation.

The most likely response to a motorcycle approaching you at speed, in your lane, around a corner is going to be "Oh shi..." :pinch:

All of this idle speculation, while interesting enough, is extremely hypothetical. As has been pointed out you can not predict the reactions of the oncoming rider and you have absolultely no control over, and only very limited information about, your environment in these situations. Consequently your reactions to the situation have to match the very real scenario you are in at that given moment, not a studied imaginative scenario you have spent hours and hours priming yourself for.

Whatever happens, happens - it's how we deal with it that matters. ...and death is the only certainty.

[gammaguy]

or summer weather has brought all the "born-again bikers" out to play, and their skills are rusty.

someone should tell them-you can be born again,but only dead once.

they are alarmingly over represented in statistics as far as i can tell

[ducatilover]

Whatever happens, happens - it's how we deal with it that matters. ...and death is the only certainty.

i agree completely :scooter:

[Quasievil]

Of course there are many theories on what to do and how to react and many of them will be entertained by many of you, but if I suggest you say simply SLOW DOWN and do the speed limit, that would be something most of you wont entertain, and consequensely the predicatable results will follow where we read about many other tragic events.

[carbonhed]

On the two most recent occasions, both at the same time.
How does that affect the theory?
(Other than that steering with the front brake on makes you turn faster :whistle:)

I've always found that if you're braking as you lean it tends to try to stand you back up...

Maybe that's the universal answer!

Massive amounts of front brake followed by catstrophic highside and you'll be able to wave to the squid/cruiser as they pass harmlessly below you. :Punk:

This avoidance technique is now copyrighted and fees are payable on a per use basis. :cool:

[scumdog]

Bikers are not the paragons of virtue they often claim to be. Many ride way beyond their competence, the limits of their machinery, the bounds of decency, in excess of the dictates of the prevailing road and weather conditions, and ultra vires to the Laws of Physics.

The fact that more aren't maimed or killed during the "riding season" is, I suspect, a statistical anomaly.

Mr H. is right.

That the motorcycle death toll is not higher is a constant source of amazement to me...............:crazy:

[Subike]

Yesterday I went for a little putter around my block,
Greta valley, Waikari, Waiau, leader road to Parnassas, Cheviot, Gretta valley
Hot day, nice roads, good conditions for a putter,
Sure I over took heaps of cars, 4X4 with boats , camper vans the usual week end tourists.
I think the highest speed I got too was 130kpn, during an over taking move.
But.
I was overtaken by at least 6 bikes ( No Harleys lol ), all of who, if caught by the law would have been walking! It was a beautifull day to enjoy the country side!!
Not pass it by on fast forward!
I travel SH1 often, love sitting on 110kph, and get passed mainly by sprot bikes!
I personally dont see the sence in it myself,
I like going fast, but on a public road? on a busy traffic day!! STUPID!
Yes I have encountered bikes cutting crns,.... too often.
I just slow down and mutter, fuckin idiot!

[AD345]

Interesting thread.

As a bona-fide sterotypical Born Again Biker I live (for now) in a state of constant amazement at my incredible good fortune at being able to complete rides without killing or being killed. Add in the fact that I am enjoying myself and it all starts to look a little obscene...


Wandering back on topic - the OP makes a reasonable point but I don't know how applicable it will be out on the road. Trying something is better than nothing though.

I will admit to surprise at this topic (preparing for the bike on the other side of the road) seeming to be a new one for discussion. Thrashing up and down the countryside on my sprotsbike back in the day it quickly became apparent that if other riders were doing what I was doing - we're both fucked. So I adjusted my style accordingly. Perhaps I was fortunate that i was granted the time to make the mistakes and then learn from them - not all are so blessed.

What can I do as an individual to reduce the risk of being involved in a scenario like this?

Work hard on not being the guilty party.
Doable

Attach a viciously sharp javelin to the front of my cruiser in order to sweep offenders into oblivion and out of the genepool.
There's a law against it (bound to be - but I must check).

Do the visualisation thing.
It's a faint hope but a hope nonetheless.

Thats pretty much it.

Ruled out was:
Not riding

[Dean]

Yea i think many are just thrashing the corners knee downs and all enjoying the adrenalin putting in a few casey stoner tactics and unfortunately took a corner wide its very sad to hear this news

[Mom]

I have read this thread, and multi quoted so many posts I would have exceeded the post limit for characters responding so...

Anytime a bike runs head on to another bike there must have been a very bad decision or mistake made by one rider, possibly both. It makes no difference what the reasoning or excuse is for it, it happened. Inexperience/testosterone/speed what ever, it happened.

As far as avoiding a head on with another bike, I think you make your choice as you see it. Of course the find an option other than direct hit is the optimum, but that may well prove impossible if the bike appears inside your ability to spot and react. Yes, amazingly enough there are some of us that actually dont travel close to the speed limit and at inappropriate times to boot.

I think this spate of death by motorcycling is tragic and above the norm for the "death months" of summer riding.

To propose the turn to the right to avoid is stupid, and goes against all your learned driving/riding experience. There can be no track comparison to the road riding experience of potentially meeting a bike/car head on, even allowing for time "slowing down", the track is not the road. Take your chances as you find them. I was told "always chose the softest option" and I constantly scan for it when I am riding.

There will always be dickheads out there, it is up to us to avoid placing ourselves in their path, and if that fails, being able to avoid them if at all possible.

[James Deuce]

I had a near miss head on recently. A rider with pillion bellowing up the white line between two lines of traffic, on a favourite hill road, perceived the gap behind a Ford F150 I was following to be clear.

It was not, I was in it. However I had spotted the headlight flashing between cars through the Ford's cab. I moved over to the gutter to make space and give me the option of dashing past the left hand side of the Ford into an approaching lay by if it all went a bit awry.

I suspect that it is only through seeing a situation like that developing with a couple of seconds (or more) to spare that you can truly avoid a head on. The blind brow/corner scenario will give you one brief instant to make a choice. It is better to do something rather than nothing, but your choice will be governed by your body chemistry and chance, not a conscious decision.

Overriding flight/fright takes either intense training or vast experience and pulling bits of a mate's bike out of the front of a ute teaches you pretty quickly that even people much fitter of body and sharper of mind still lose the surprise head on vs. pretty much anything else.

I always celebrate the avoiding action that causes me no stress at all as a nice piece of controlled riding. Planning will always beat panic and relying on your reaction time to save you puts your fate firmly in Lady Luck's hands.

Always expect the worst and you won't ever be disappointed, and you may have the opportunity to feel a bit smug from time to time.

[sinfull]

Good thread ma man, good reading everyones opinions an all that, but what would i do ?
Can drop my bike either side now, till my pegs are too angled to rest my feet on no more and pretty quick too i recon (but i'm old and it's relative they say), can scrub 100 km off my speed in christ knows how many mtrs, but know it stops bloody well !
Have lived that scenario in theory on many occasion !
But what would i do ?

[Oakie]

So I'd be much obliged to all y'all squids (or overly ambitious cruiser riders) out there if, having overcooked a left-hander and found yourself staring down the muzzle of a black GSX1400, you just fuckin' hold your line and let me handle the rest. Ta.

This topic is a little close to the bone for me. If we'd left Chch 3 minutes later on Friday that could well have been the situation we found ourselves in and may have been picking ourselves up off the tarmac (hopefully) instead of picking up from the weeds the wayward cruiser rider who overcooked the left hander.

[rocketman1]

Another one this morning, on one of my favourite roads (http://www.infonews.co.nz/news.cfm?l=1&t=72&id=33176).

Seriously, what the fuck? How many bike vs bike head-on crashes have we had this summer?

Thoughts?

It is sad to read about this, I don't know the full story about this incident, but is another one too many.
There are dozens of reasons that a rider drifts wide on a corner, but as I and others have written on previous threads on this subject there are ways of avoiding being hit, and that is enter corners slower and wide, cut to the apex, and fast out: if all riders cornered like that there would not be a problem, as riders by virtue of their postion on the road give each other a wide berth
Now dont just read it......... BLOODY do it.

[Dean]

So I'd be much obliged to all y'all squids (or overly ambitious cruiser riders) out there if, having overcooked a left-hander and found yourself staring down the muzzle of a black GSX1400, you just fuckin' hold your line and let me handle the rest.

Ta.

WAIT BLACK GSX1400 does anybody know the name of the person involved on the gsx1400 im hoping its not who i think it is.

[jrandom]

WAIT BLACK GSX1400 does anybody know the name of the person involved on the gsx1400 im hoping its not who i think it is.

Huh?

In this case, it's hypothetical and it's me.

Who are you thinking of?

[pritch]

I've always found that if you're braking as you lean it tends to try to stand you back up...

Maybe that's the universal answer!

Massive amounts of front brake followed by catstrophic highside and you'll be able to wave to the squid/cruiser as they pass harmlessly below you. :Punk:

This avoidance technique is now copyrighted and fees are payable on a per use basis. :cool:

Dunno where you get all that from. My reading suggests GP riders turn in under brakes to get a sharper turn. My recent panic grab at the front brake as I lunged left gave me a real sharp turn which was just fine as that was exactly what was required.

If the front wheel had locked or washed out that might have caused a low side. I've no idea how you extrapolate a high side from that...
Anythings possible but I don't wish to discover this for myself thanks.

Perhaps it's a Triumph thing?

[jrandom]

My reading suggests GP riders turn in under brakes to get a sharper turn.

Everyone does that on the track. Heck, even I do it, so it obviously doesn't imply that one is riding particularly fast.

But for track riding, you brake hard, and then ease off as you tip in, reaching the brakes-off point right about when it's time to crack on the throttle.

carbonhed, I think, is talking about being neutral/cracked-on into a corner, road-riding styles, and then grabbing front brake, which does tend to stand the bike up.

I also don't see how it could lead to a highside, though. Still, the mental image of flying over the oncoming rider is amusing, which I think was the main point.

[Dean]

Huh?

In this case, it's hypothetical and it's me.

Who are you thinking of?

a guy i know with a naked black gsx1400 lives in stanmore bay

[Hitcher]

and then grabbing front brake, which does tend to stand the bike up.

Particularly if the bike has got radial-mounted calipers, twin 320mm front discs, braided lines and one grabs a fist-full, rather than a more discrete two-fingers worth...

[jrandom]

a guy i know with a naked black gsx1400 lives in stanmore bay

Well, do give him my congratulations on his fine taste in motorcycles.

[pritch]

Everyone does that on the track. Heck, even I do it, so it obviously doesn't imply that one is riding particularly fast.


I wasn't trying to suggest I was riding fast but I sure as Hell wanted to turn fast. This wasn't a planned move both the turn and the brake grab could probably be described as "panic". It worked a treat though.

It was a narrow road and I'm not even sure if either of us was on the wrong side of the road but we were much too close for comfort.

[sinfull]

Huh?

In this case, it's hypothetical and it's me.

Who are you thinking of? I blame the crack !

Everyone does that on the track. Heck, even I do it, so it obviously doesn't imply that one is riding particularly fast.

But for track riding, you brake hard, and then ease off as you tip in, reaching the brakes-off point right about when it's time to crack on the throttle.

carbonhed, I think, is talking about being neutral/cracked-on into a corner, road-riding styles, and then grabbing front brake, which does tend to stand the bike up.

I also don't see how it could lead to a highside, though. Still, the mental image of flying over the oncoming rider is amusing, which I think was the main point.
Increase the rebound and then release the brakes at the apex wooohooo tip it in !!! oh wait or was it the other way round ? Bugger

[Dean]

Well, do give him my congratulations on his fine taste in motorcycles.

Will do, there really really nice bikes. quite big and torquey the whole tourer package.Hes got a yoshi on his and some computor thing he got from colemans that are for gsx1400s i think it was only like $300 he said now he can pull alot more wheelies without trying

[_STAIN_]

My greatest fear in riding today is " Should I Pull Right "......not Bike head-on but Camper Van head-on. So many time we see or hear of them driving unwittingly in the right lane. When faced with swerving to avoid crash their instinct is to pull right, my instinct is to pull left, we come together off the road, on my LHS.

The government would rather sacrifice dozens of us than hurt our tourism industry by denying them the right to drive. Never will you find the true figures of how great this problem is. Big brother is masking it.

[jrandom]

Will do, there really really nice bikes. quite big and torquey...

Yes, you could say that, you could certainly say that...


he said now he can pull alot more wheelies without trying

They wheelie OK off the throttle with just the muffler change.

Not really something I like to do, though. I have very little balance and coordination. Also, wheelies are neither big nor clever.

[Hitcher]

Also, wheelies are neither big nor clever.

Indeed. Somebody I know quite well has recently purchased a naked Italian thing which, I understand, does throttle wheelies in first gear merely by rolling the throttle off and on at 7,000rpm. Or thereabouts. Apparently. What a fucking hoon.

[jrandom]

... a naked Italian thing which, I understand, does throttle wheelies in first gear merely by rolling the throttle off and on at 7,000rpm.

Sounds quite dangerous. I'm not surprised me poor old mum was so dead set against these motorcycle things.

[Dean]

Yea his bike was the first bike i pillioned on, and i was amazed how there would be a car way infront merging into one lane and all of a sudden we are infront of the car and im struggling to hold on every time he blimps the throttle.I think wheelies are nice when done on bikes that arent made to wheelie or arent suited to, seeing someone wheelie on a typical zx10 or a gixxer one thou is boring to wacth but wacthing a tourer heavy naked bike 12 oclocking is fun to get on camera!!!!

[Ocean1]

The cage moved left, and as I was about to pull out to pass a twat on a bike came the other way

Yup, had just such an invite from a camper van in the Buller gorge last week, I'm alive because I declined it. Never trust some other bastard's opinion on whether you should cross the border.


Dunno where you get all that from. My reading suggests GP riders turn in under brakes to get a sharper turn.


carbonhed, I think, is talking about being neutral/cracked-on into a corner, road-riding styles, and then grabbing front brake, which does tend to stand the bike up.

Mine sure as hell does, even if I'm sluggish easing off the front picks it takes more effort to tip in. A firm squeeze after that requires steering compensation. A panic grab mid-left hander would put me across the centreline in a flash.


Still, the mental image of flying over the oncoming rider is amusing, which I think was the main point.

It's a valid tactic for cars, I've jumped over two and walked away. Don't believe it's a workable plan for an oncoming bike, though...

[jrandom]

I think wheelies are nice when done on bikes that arent made to wheelie or arent suited to

Some of us think the same thing about circuit racing.

<img src="http://i39.tinypic.com/23odw9.jpg"/>

Which, dangerous sport that it may be, offers the advantage of a distinct lack of oncoming traffic.

[Dean]

Some of us think the same thing about circuit racing.


Which, dangerous sport that it may be, offers the advantage of a distinct lack of oncoming traffic.

choice picture GSX1400 rule!!! is that you in the pic by any chance , its a nice kneedown:first:
When i get my full licence im going to get one ( well hopefully )

[jrandom]

choice picture GSX1400 rule!!! is that you in the pic by any chance , its a nice kneedown

Yes, that's me. But, uh, there's a good couple of inches of air between my knee and the deck, sorry dude. I'll try harder next time eh? No balance or coordination, though, remember. I may well fall off or summat.


When i get my full licence im going to get one ( well hopefully )

Good man. I like you now.

[RT527]

Hey all I don't mean to be a pedantic Prick.....meh what the hell here goes anyways....this accident didn't occur today it was yesterday at 11 30 in the morning .....http://www.stuff.co.nz/4841438a11.html.......soz to be way off the track here...now what were we talking about, oh yeah head ons.....see them every day an so over them , I would have a near miss /head on about ooooo lets say on average 4 a week, its not that Im looking for them , I just see it happening and take the necessary action, so as to avoid a nasty reaction.


Oh shit thats right this is a bikers forum and Im talking about me driving trucks again , oh how horrid.

But it is in relation , in the fact that 50 % of the near misses involve 2 wheels!!!! but Since no one can say slow down a little and enjoy life with out having torrential abuse hurled at them ... Ill just say what the heck Im bigger than you so I should go over the top of you just nicely so next time someone comes at me ... don't expect me to move , cause I'm a rock and I'm steadfastly going about my business driving my truck ....ahhh what the hell Ill prolly still move out the way before you even realize that you are heading towards your impending doom which would look something like this

[Ixion]

All of which is very interesting I'm sure, but does not go to address the original question - why so many?

One would logically think that if bikers were going to head on something, the something would be roughly in proportion to the numbers of the various classes of vehicles on the road.

That is, one would expect far more headons with cars, than with bikes, just because there are so many more cars than bikes. More targets as it were.

Doesn't seem to work that way? Is it possible that the much maligned cager is in fact quite good about sticking to his own side of the road (Harry Huriup always excepted) ; whereas bikers have fallen into bad habits of overtaking without due consideration of what be oncoming. So that there is a greater liklihood of bike impacting bike, than bike impacting car. In which case, the solution lies within our own hands.

[Ocean1]

- why so many?

Is it a real anomaly, or a perceived one?

If real I wonder if there's an effect from the different lines bikes take to cars. It may be the opposing bike line is more... congruent to one's own bike line than yer average opposing car line.

Mebe.

[BMWST?]

I am strongly tempted to a bit of micheal extraction, but as this is a serious topic , I will, by a mighty and valiant effort, restrict myself simply to saying that you are seriously mistaken. Unless by 'drastic change of direction' you mean something like a handbrake turn.

ok we agree to disagree..i was in a honda prelude and we had to take evasive action to miss a motorbike who pulled out in front of us blindly following his mates....we were doing 100 km an hour and swerved around him...I have had 11 bikes and traveelled many thousands of km(in a previuos time) and loved throwing my bikes around(countersteer invioked wheelies mid s turn and i swear i could not replicate that manouvre

[mikeey01]

This really is very very important. The reason that bikes involved in head ons with each other don't take evasive action is often because of the "WTF - this can't happening" reaction.

When confronted with something that we believe just should not be, our minds tend to lock up. This can be prevented by pre-visualising.

Regularly, on corners and such, put the picture into your minds eye of a car/SUV/bike dead in front of you when you come into the corner. Don't actually do anything, just visualise the possibility. (I usually use the memorised image of the last vehicle that went by). And think of what possibilities there are. Then when the situation really does occur (and sooner or later, it will) , instead of freezing with a "WTF - no this isn't right" reaction, you will at least do SOMETHING.

That sir is some dam good advise, thank you! :not:

[jrandom]

ok we agree to disagree..i was in a honda prelude and we had to take evasive action to miss a motorbike who pulled out in front of us blindly following his mates...

You could well be right. I suspect some cars are capable of retaining traction while pulling more lateral G's than most motorcycles could.

In fact, that's not just a suspicion, it's reality. Look at any car vs bike shootout - the car always has superior corner speed.

So stating that a car can swerve more sharply than a bike in these circumstances is probably justified.

[RT527]

All of which is very interesting I'm sure, but does not go to address the original question - why so many?



Yeah I know it was just dribble....there is no real reason that this happens...people don't like being told how to ride /drive so until someone accepts that what they are doing is fundamentally wrong no actually that should read playing Russian roulette with all chambers bar one loaded , they will keep crashing after veering over the centre line.....OK I can own up to doing this myself even after James Duece My brother told me and actually stipulated "DO NOT CROSS THE CENTRE LINE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE" guess what about 20 mins later in a set of twisties, well sought of, Out back of nowhere between Masterton and Ekatahuna I think it was, I crossed the centre line, and I can honestly put that down to lack of concentration, there was no reason to do it, (I wasn't going warp 1.5 which for me would be nigh on impossible to ride at those speeds anyways ).

There is no real answer, we could try to be concerned and actually show consternation with the ones that actually like to ride dangerously ...let them know that it isn't acceptable to pull half baked stunts ....or ride beyond there limits...or we can just keep on going about our business and let natural selection form the basis of our existence....Human nature at its best is best described as the shell be right it wont happen to me norm of things that no one knows whats going to happen next should ever be using to decide what to do next....

[Mikkel]

I took the missus out to see some of gravel roads we ride around Banks Peninsula this weekend. We were going along a fairly narrow road - space enough for two cars if needs be, but only one set of wheel tracks if you know what I mean.
At one point we were about to enter a fairly obscured right-hand corner. I enter the corner at about 30 km/h and just at that moment a motorcycle came around the corner. Luckily there was time and space for me to, very quickly I might add, pull approximately a meter to left and luckily he didn't get shocked enough to target fixate on the car.
Being a dry day with plenty of dust I had kept an eye out for clouds that could have given me a warning - but he must have gone too slow to raise any significant amount of dust, or he would just have started off when we met him. I wasn't going fast, neither was he - sometimes the lay of the land just allows dangerous situations to occur even when exercising due care and attention...

As it were, it could have gone either way. If he hadn't already been in the right-hand tyre track it most likely would have gone awry. Thankfully he stayed upright and we didn't go over the edge - and no, I didn't check that there was enough space to move left before I did it, I just did it because my natural reaction was to try and avoid a collision.

[MarkH]

Too many riding beyond their capabilities. There is never a need to cross the centreline.

Crossing the centre line when you do it (and generally you shouldn't do it) should ALWAYS be done deliberately and with a lot of care - the road code says you should still have 100M visibility by the end of the manoeuvre. It makes no difference whether cornering or overtaking, if you don't have a shit load of clear view ahead then you need to stick within your own lane. If you unintentionally move into the opposite lane while cornering then change how you corner and don't do it again - one day you will cross the line and be killed. The rule should ALWAYS be to stay within your own lane, the exceptions should be VERY carefully managed and involve LOOKING & THINKING.

If you lack experience then a good exercise is to practise on every corner the skill of riding fully within your own lane throughout the entire manoeuvre. This works fine on all the corners, not just the blind ones and is a good habit to get into. In fact as Squiggles said: "There is never a need to cross the centreline".

If you find yourself drifting wide on left handers then try entering them slower - 'fast in, slow out' is not how it goes! (some use 'fast in, crap yourself when running wide, slow out') Next time try the proper 'slow in, fast out' method and you will find you have less skidmarks in your undies.

[BMWST?]

Some of us think the same thing about circuit racing.



Which, dangerous sport that it may be, offers the advantage of a distinct lack of oncoming traffic.

OT but...why dont you stick to the smooth bits. :yes:....is that the s at manfeild?

[sinfull]

OT but...why dont you stick to the smooth bits. :yes:....is that the s at manfeild?

OT ?
Smooth ! Ya wont find a much smoother surface than he just crossed lol Taupo T 7 if i remember rightly !

[dpex]

Is there any data-base available listing the dates of all bike crashes in a particular year?

It would be interesting to see the numbers relative to seasonal weather extremes. The reason for this posit is my experiences riding over the last weekend. As we know the Auckland weather was blisteringly hot in the afternoons.

On Friday I got 'reasonably' properly togged up (not full leathers) to ride across to North Head to watch the boat racing. By the time I got there (maybe midday after about a 30 minute ride) I was drenched in sweat.

The racing ended at about 4. It was so hot I thought "Stuff this," and road home in T-shirt, jeans, sandshoes and helmet. Gloves, jacket, boots and socks, got stuffed in my bag.

The heat coming off the Northern approach to the bridge was such that the air-rush, instead of cooling me, actually added to my discomfort.

Yet, despite the intense heat, I passed biker-after-biker dressed in full leathers, or full Kordura (however you spell that).

As JRandom and many others will attest, even sitting in shade, waiting for the call to the dummy grid, dressed in full leathers, was extremely unpleasant at Taupo, over Christmas. And after just the 15 minutes on the track the affect this extreme heat on concentration was significant.

And so, I wonder if many of the crashes which occur in high summer can be reasonably explained by the riders being in such extreme heat, in full toggs and, therefore suffering heat-stroke at some level?

At the other end of the scale I remember riding from Aucks to Manfield in the middle of October. It was 2 degrees in Waiouru and not much better in Taihape. I was dressed in several layers of clothing both under and over my leathers. Hot-Grips were set to blast-furnace level, and still I was frozen to the bone. I regretfully admit, that by the time I set off on the last 13Ks from Devonport to Fielding I was so cold I knew my brain had more or less shut down. And yes, I should have just pulled off the road and found a better plan, but extreme fatigue, caused partially by the long ride but mostly by the extended exposure to extreme cold (ambient temp added to wind-chill) my brain was in survival mode. All I wanted to do was arrive and find a hot shower.

In other words I was a statistic in waiting, as I believe many weekend-warriors, dressed in full toggs, in blistering summer heat, are statistics in waiting.

Although guessing, I'd lay odds that the bike-crash-rate, during the mild seasons is way lower than during the extreme seasons.

[BMWST?]

Is there any data-base available listing the dates of all bike crashes in a particular year?

It would be interesting to see the numbers relative to seasonal weather extremes. The reason for this posit is my experiences riding over the last weekend. As we know the Auckland weather was blisteringly hot in the afternoons.

On Friday I got 'reasonably' properly togged up (not full leathers) to ride across to North Head to watch the boat racing. By the time I got there (maybe midday after about a 30 minute ride) I was drenched in sweat.

The racing ended at about 4. It was so hot I thought "Stuff this," and road home in T-shirt, jeans, sandshoes and helmet. Gloves, jacket, boots and socks, got stuffed in my bag.

The heat coming off the Northern approach to the bridge was such that the air-rush, instead of cooling me, actually added to my discomfort.

Yet, despite the intense heat, I passed biker-after-biker dressed in full leathers, or full Kordura (however you spell that).

As JRandom and many others will attest, even sitting in shade, waiting for the call to the dummy grid, dressed in full leathers, was extremely unpleasant at Taupo, over Christmas. And after just the 15 minutes on the track the affect this extreme heat on concentration was significant.

And so, I wonder if many of the crashes which occur in high summer can be reasonably explained by the riders being in such extreme heat, in full toggs and, therefore suffering heat-stroke at some level?

At the other end of the scale I remember riding from Aucks to Manfield in the middle of October. It was 2 degrees in Waiouru and not much better in Taihape. I was dressed in several layers of clothing both under and over my leathers. Hot-Grips were set to blast-furnace level, and still I was frozen to the bone. I regretfully admit, that by the time I set off on the last 13Ks from Devonport to Fielding I was so cold I knew my brain had more or less shut down. And yes, I should have just pulled off the road and found a better plan, but extreme fatigue, caused partially by the long ride but mostly by the extended exposure to extreme cold (ambient temp added to wind-chill) my brain was in survival mode. All I wanted to do was arrive and find a hot shower.

In other words I was a statistic in waiting, as I believe many weekend-warriors, dressed in full toggs, in blistering summer heat, are statistics in waiting.

Although guessing, I'd lay odds that the bike-crash-rate, during the mild seasons is way lower than during the extreme seasons.

very ggod point here...wasnt there a thread re hydration somewhere,or was that adv rider?Be acareful with running your grips on high...on one long cold ride a freind ended up burning(ie blisters etc) their hands!

[jrandom]

OT but...why dont you stick to the smooth bits. :yes:....is that the s at manfeild?


Smooth ! Ya wont find a much smoother surface than he just crossed lol Taupo T 7 if i remember rightly !

Spot on, that's T7 at Taupo.

Those Taupo seal repairs (which I think were made after the A1GP cars ripped the track up a year or two ago) are fine in the dry; traction's just as good on them as off them. They're a bit shit in the wet, though; you need to go either inside or outside of them when it's raining.

[bezajel]

Is it just me or does there seem a theme of one bike overtaking cars and hitting other bikes from the other direction?


I've come across a bike coming towards me on my side of the road once so far, luckily it was low speeds and enough time and space to manoeuvre. :Pokey: This thread makes me just a wee bit scared.



The heat coming off the Northern approach to the bridge was such that the air-rush, instead of cooling me, actually added to my discomfort.
[...]
In other words I was a statistic in waiting, as I believe many weekend-warriors, dressed in full toggs, in blistering summer heat, are statistics in waiting.


Yep I wear full corduras whenever I'm out riding, yet I have a really low tolerance for heat. I've had one very very small incident involving another vehicle ('bike I was following), and I attribute it to having lost concentration riding through a valley in ~35 degree heat, no wind-chill as the air was just as hot coming off the road, dehydrated despite my best efforts... it could have been much much worse, and now I'm wondering whether summer is a good time to tour at all... My best rides are on the cool days where some nice air chill keeps you alert.

Back on topic, I wouldn't really know how I'd react in a high speed surprise situation. Not even sure how to practice for that.

[Cynos]

When I was learning, I was told, if it's too hot for the gear, it's too hot to ride.

[trumpy]

You have a good point dpex. Over heating combined with dehydration were major factors in my accident a year ago. They didn't directly cause the accident but were major contributors to me not being able to take appropriate action when I needed to in difficult riding conditions (extreme heat and tar melt). I have now become somewhat more aware of my physical state when out riding.

Having a good look at these at the moment http://www.coolingapparel.com.au/

[Laxi]

i may be new to riding on road but it seems theres a bit of dirt culture going on, guys are always "bragging" about how fast they did this road or that & their mate just has to try and match, what happened to ridding for the enjoyment of cruising

[Bonez]

Because motorcyclists are dicks.Nah. Some of us are cunts.............

[jrandom]

Nah. Some of us are cunts.............

And the rest of us are arseholes.

[ynot slow]

One word Inattention-not paying any attention to 1)the road,2)the conditions,3)rider fatigue due to lack of sleep,fluids(sweating,dehydrating).

This doesn't mean the guy who is crashed into mind you,just the rider who caused the crash.

[dipshit]

Seriously, what the fuck? How many bike vs bike head-on crashes have we had this summer?

Thoughts?

Maybe because there are so many motorcyclists getting around out there that have the BRONZ bullshit in their heads that most motorcycle accidents are caused by cars.

[FROSTY]

Another contributing factor is definitely road conditions. First real ride on my new bike and I found the bike sliding like buggery on the well melted tarmac. This was at cruiser type pace

[Motu]

So did you crash? Did you run into another bike? If not,why not? What can you do to improve this situation so that next time you encounter such a road hazzard you will imediatly take out another bike? I fear you have failled to meet the criteria for a motorcyclist endevouring to replicate a head on....you failed to impliment the most important requirement...to lose control.